Thousands protest in Europe at Gaza offensive

[Joanne98]

Source: Reuters

LONDON, Jan 3 (Reuters) - Thousands of chanting, banner-waving demonstrators marched in cities across Europe on Saturday to demand a halt to Israeli bombing in the Gaza Strip.

Protests were held or scheduled in Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands and Spain as the Israeli offensive entered its second week. Kuwaitis also took to the streets, a day after bigger Middle East rallies.

In Paris, police said more than 20,000 demonstrators, many wearing Palestinian keffiyeh headscarves, marched through the city centre chanting slogans like "Israel murderer!" and waving banners demanding an end to the air attacks.

Similar protests were planned in some 30 other towns.

London police said more than 10,000 people staged a noisy march and rally to urge an end to an Israeli offensive against Hamas militants that has killed at least 435 Palestinians.

In many European cities people waved shoes -- recalling the action of an Iraqi journalist who hurled footwear at U.S. President George W. Bush in Baghdad last month in a symbolic insult.


Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL3529995

[emlev]

1. If you know of a site that lists U.S. protests, please post it! n/t

[balantz]

3. Here's a couple:

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

[ShadesOfGrey]

54. Thanks so much! I found one near me that starts this afternoon.

And another one on Friday. I'll be there!

[barb162]

13. Got any sites showing US protests against the Palestinian rocket fire?

You know, the Palestinian rocket fire over the last several years against innocent civilians?

[classysassy]

16. If

Israel, were to remove themselves from the occupied land ,there would be no rocket attacks.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Like Gaza?

[barb162]

35. Israel's not on occupied land, Hamas has been running it into the hellhole it is

all by its lonesome.

[captain jack]

21. No. Most intelligent people don't defend occupations.

Those innocent civilians you speak of have decided to remain in a place that does not belong to them and where they are not wanted. Shall I come to your house and plant myself in your living room and push you out? And if you object should I do worse? Their's nothing innocent or civil about partaking in something that does not belong to you and no rational person would defend it. They have obviously worn out their welcome. That's what the rockets are for. Here's an idea. They should go home. Oh that's right they have no home. Today I can see why that's the case. They should all relocate to america where the occupation-inclined fair much better. Think of the money the taxpayers would save no longer having to prop up and maintain this sham of a nation. Not to mention no longer having to transport all those killing machines.

[barb162]

36. Israel left Gaza a few years ago; too bad you don't know that old news.

Hamas is fucking up Gaza. Notice how Egypt refuses to open its border to Hamas -run Gaza? It's really sad Israel has to put up with constant rocket attacks from Gaza and has to fight Hamas for its own security.

[captain jack]

42. Nice try but occupancy remains occupancy. Israel has no home to leave to.

That's the real old news.

[WriteDown]

52. Where was the occupation accusation

when they were truly occupied by Jordan?

[leftynyc]

58. Great question

And one I've asked over and over again. Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.

[Gullvann]

63. What the hell is this supposed to mean?

"Oh that's right they have no home. Today I can see why that's the case."

[gtar100]

65. That's too truthy for most people.

Israel is such a dream state - and would be so - if it weren't for (*sigh*) right-wing, ideological fundamentalists. They had no right to move in and set up shop in the '40's and they have no right to keep making "settlements" on land people were forced out of only recently. It would be such a wonderful place, if only... Such bright, smart people. But they have not done justice with the Palestinians. Same could be said for how European Americans treat Native Americans. But in such a crowded world, the right of conquest gets so much harder to justify.

[L0oniX]

27. Gee shame on them. They should be happy that they are in a prison ghetto.

[barb162]

37. Courtesy of Hamas, they are in a self-imposed ghetto.

Do you notice ANY countries who want to invest in Gaza when Hamas is running around there throwing other Palestinians off roofs? Do you see any of the super rich oil states investing in Hamas- run Gaza? Saudi Arabia? How about China? They have plenty of money. If you don't see Gaza as a terrorist run state, read up on it. The only two states which seems to like how Gaza is run are Iran and Syria. And I don't see Egypt opening its border with Gaza either. But maybe that's because Hamas shot an UNARMED Egyptian soldier dead last week.
:eyes:

[L0oniX]

47. Hmmm ...isn't Hamas the democratically elected party?

[leftynyc]

59. So what?

No country is obligated to deal with another country simply because their citizens were stupid.

[ave]

48. No, but...

I do know of a website by people living in Sderot and other communities surrounding the Gaza Strip:
http://www.othervoice.org/info/eng/about-us.htm


And there is another website that certainly includes the casualties of the rockets you mentioned:
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html
Last updated July 17,2008.

[High Plains]

2. Good, but will it do any good?

[Rage for Order]

4. Sounds like the same "youths" who burned France a while ago

"In Paris, police said more than 20,000 demonstrators, many wearing Palestinian keffiyeh headscarves, marched through the city centre chanting slogans like "Israel murderer!"

I think it's pretty clear who the Hamas sympathizers are. France can soon look forward to more riots, murdered police officers and citizens, and cars burned by the hundreds.

[High Plains]

6. Uh, they might be sympathizers with the plight of the Palestinians.

Not necessarily Hamas supporters.

Let's hope your prediction is wishful thinking on your part.

[Rage for Order]

7. I don't wish those things on France

But it certainly seems likely, given the purported reasons for the last riots. The chants of "Israel murderer" seem to indicate that the protestors consider Israel's campaign against Hamas to be a grave offense. We all know what happens when radicals feel that they've been gravely offended: ask Theo van Gogh, the Dutch embassies (after the Mohammad cartoons), and Salman Rushdie if you're unsure. If someone goes out of their way to purchase a keffiyeh, chances are they didn't do so simply because they empathize with the Palestinians.

[EFerrari]

9. I consider Israel's behavior a grave offense. And Reuters chose to report

that sign and not another sign.

Maybe if more of us purchased keffiyehs, our leaders would hesitate a little longer before using our money to facilitate murder.

[classysassy]

18. What

would you do if someone occupied you country?.

[pampango]

39. Fight like hell to get them to leave AND assure the occupiers that I recognize their right

to exist peacefully within their own borders. If the occupier (theoretically, Mexico, Canada, China?) of my country believes that I want to destroy their country, not just get them out of mine, they will fight that much harder to keep me from doing that.

[DFW]

20. That's Danish embassies, not Dutch embassies

But I get your point. Living in Europe these days, I can tell you that wearing a star
of David isn't going to get you much more sympathy than it did in 1940, except if you
live in certain areas of Antwerp. Moderate Jews and Muslims don't really clash much in
continental Europe any more on the basis of ethnicity alone, although it has been taboo
in recent years to try to punish Arabs in Holland or Belgium for crimes of violence. This,
of course, has given rise to radical right movements in both countries--a very forseeable
consequence. It is the extremists, armed with guns and hate, that want to see each other's
blood. So what else is new?

[DutchLiberal]

23. Have you been in Holland lately?

"although it has been taboo in recent years to try to punish Arabs in Holland or Belgium for crimes of violence."

Uhm, unfortunately that's all Dutch politicians ever talk about. Whenever there are problems with youth from a Moroccan background, all politicians will try to outbid each other about whom will be punishing them most harshly. We even have a party with 9 seats in the 'House' who proposed abandoning Article 1 of the Dutch Constitution, which says all citizens should be treated equally by the government, because they want to punish Moroccans more harshly than Dutchmen for the same crimes.

Also, I find your remark about David starts and 1940 to be in very poor taste and it shows a true lack of historical understanding.

[DFW]

34. I'm in Holland about every month. I don't know if that counts as "lately."

I don't live there, but live an hour's drive east in the German Rheinland, have an office in
the Netherlands with whom I speak every day, and never in English. I also get Dutch TV, and
am in Belgium once a week at least, with frequent visits to Eastern Europe (I speak Russian,
French and German, en kan ook wel Nederlands verstaan).

I have seen that some (not all) Dutch politicians have gotten on today's PC bandwagon, but
my friends there, as well as what I have observed on my own, tell me that the propaganda
coming out of the fractious parliament has not much changed the reality in the judicial
system (no surprise--France and Germany are no different), just as the rise of the Vlaamse
Blok has not made much impact on the way Moroccans fare when brought before Belgian justice.


And I have Muslim friends in France and Germany, as well as Jewish friends in Germany
and Belgium, along with distant family who perished in the Holocaust. Maybe we just have
a different perspective of what constitutes historical understanding. My German wife, who
has no Jewish or Muslim roots at all (but has relatives in Holland), sees things my way. It
is not unusual for others to see things differently, but I'd bet we speak from at least as
much experience with Western and Central Europe as you do. Our kids both went to the Anne Frank
Schule outside of Düsseldorf, and learned about her life as a compulsory part of the curriculum.
When Jewish cemeteries and cultural installations get trashed anywhere, it makes their skin crawl
as much as anyone else's.

[DutchLiberal]

50. If you are so familiar with Holland, why did you say it is 'taboo' to punish Arabs?

You should know, getting Dutch tv and speaking (a little) Dutch, that is on top of virtually every politician's agenda. Of course that has not "much changed the reality in the judicial system", thankfully, because I would hate to see Arabs treated different just because of their ethnic background. But to say it is 'taboo' is, in my opinion, ridiculous, as even the most liberal/left politicians/newspapers/media outlets are now preoccupied with the issue.

Talking about a historical comparison, I would say that the current tendency to compare *all* Moroccans to the small group which is causing trouble, and the general negative attitude toward everything that is 'multi-culti', and the current climate in which you say everything about "the Moroccans" reminds me of pre-1940s treatment of the Jewish people. Just substitute anything what Geert Wilders has said about Moroccans with 'Jews' and you will be frightened. In fact, there was a lawsuit against a man who had done so, because he wanted to show how dangerous his hate speech is!

[barb162]

12. Yep

[Flagg]

22. Another expert on France...

you have no clue what you're talking about, pal.

[Rage for Order]

31. No clue? Really?

Let's see, there were the riots from 2005 that began after two "youths" electrocuted themselves to death while hiding from the police:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/07/AR2005110700295.html

PARIS, Nov. 7 -- In a television address to the nation Monday night, France's prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, announced his government's new plan to curb riots that have spread to 300 French towns and cities in the last 12 days...

Even as Villepin spoke, another night of violence broke out, as young men in the southern city of Toulouse set fire to a city bus and threw rocks at police officers. In the Paris suburbs, where the unrest began, rioters set fire to a junior high school and a hospital.

Most of the rioters are the French-born children of immigrants from Arab and African countries. A large percentage are Muslim. Their parents' generation was invited to France as laborers who were expected to return home but didn't.

Sunday night and Monday morning brought a new peak of violence, with an estimated 1,400 vehicles torched in Paris and other French cities. Several cars were burned in Brussels, where the E.U. is headquartered, and half a dozen in Berlin, raising concerns in other European capitals that the violence is spreading to their territory. On Monday, a 61-year-old man died of injuries sustained last week when he was attacked while trying to extinguish a fire in trash bin.

Then there were the riots of 2007, after two other "youths" were killed in an vehicular accident between their motorcycle and a police car:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/27/france.riots/index.html

PARIS, France (CNN) -- The Paris suburbs were again rocked by riots after a second night of lawlessness Monday caused widespread destruction and left scores of police injured, according to French authorities and media reports.

An angry mob repeatedly clashed with riot police and torched cars and buildings in the town of Villiers-le-Bel, north of Paris, after two teens on a motorcycle were killed following a collision with a police car Sunday night.

Rioters bombarded police with baseball bats, Molotov cocktail bombs and bottles filled with acid as the violence spread to the nearby towns of Longjumeau and Grigby Monday night.

More than 60 police officers were injured in Monday night's confrontation, with five kept in hospital in a serious condition, according to reports in a number of French newspapers. The police spokesman said 60 cars, a library and car dealer's showroom had been set on fire in Villiers-le-Bel. He said a police station had also been damaged and 15 garbage cans torched.

Villiers-le-Bel was not among the districts hit by the weeks of nationwide rioting in November 2005, when disaffected youths nationwide set thousands of cars ablaze to protest against unemployment and discrimination.

Those riots were also sparked by fatalities, namely the deaths of two men of North African descent who were electrocuted while hiding from police in an electrical substation

more at both links or google, your choice

But I don't know what I'm talking about, right pal?

[Flagg]

41. You still don't know what you're talking about, pal

from your article (which you should have read before posting about those riots in the first place...)
"the riots from 2005 that began after two youths electrocuted themselves to death while hiding from the police:"


""I don't wish those things on France
But it certainly seems likely, given the purported reasons for the last riots""

The riots happened because of discrimination, years of racial profiling by the police and living in terrible social housings IN FRANCE.


Nothing to do with Palestine and the Hamas as you said in post #4 and #7.
Looks like you've fallen prey to to the Eurabia myth. I pity you, sir.


And I'll have you know that the Palestinian keffiyeh headscarves has been a staple of high school fashion for the past 10 years.

[Rage for Order]

44. Suppose the reasons you gave for the riots are correct

"The riots happened because of discrimination, years of racial profiling by the police and living in terrible social housings IN FRANCE."

Have these condiions vanished since the most recent riots of 2007? Why would the electrocution of two teenagers who were hiding in a substation have touched off riots in 2005? Why would the deaths of 2 others in a car accident touch off more riots in 2007? It seems that the disaffected youth in France are looking for excuses to riot, burn hospitals, schools, & cars, and confront (and at times assault, or even kill) the police. If 10,000 people who rioted in years past get together and start protesting "Israel murderer!", it's not much of a stretch to see the situation deteriorating rapidly.

"And I'll have you know that the Palestinian keffiyeh headscarves have been a staple of high school fashion for the past 10 years."

The people protesting in France today aren't high school kids who bought a keffiyeh because they thought it looked cool.

[Flagg]

46. The riots in France have never been about Israel/palestine

and there's no sign that this will change. Those protests were peaceful.
If you wanna talk about the riots in Franc, create a topic in the appropriate section.

[Rage for Order]

57. I'm aware that previous riots were not about the I/P conflict

However, the rioters in 2005 and 2007 were Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans, and others of North African descent. I'm sure many of the rioters from 05 & 07 are the same people now chanting "Israel murderer" while wearing their keffiyehs. If they'll riot, loot, burn and pillage over two idiots electrocuting themselves in a substation, it's not a stretch to think they'll riot over the current actions that the (murderous, oppressive, racist, apartheid, brutal, violent, fascist, Nazi, Zionist, imperialist...did i miss any?) Israelis are taking against the peace-loving, tranquil, altruistic, humanitarian, progressive members of Hamas.

[Flagg]

60. They're definitely not the same people

The youths who rioted were uneducated and not politicized.
Those who protest against Israel belong to pro Palestinian organizations, are educated and much less likely to riot than the unemployed and idle car burning youths who are not smart enough to realize that by burning their neighbor's cars and public libraries in their already poor and disenfranchised neighborhoods they're only hurting themselves.

[Sultana]

28. Oh, wow

Protesting Israel's actions = supporting Hamas? :eyes:

Wearing black and white keffiyehs = supporting Hamas, seriously? :eyes:

Give me a fucking break...

[Name removed]

33. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DogPoundPup]

5. while in northern Israel, thousands of Israeli Arabs marched in protest against Israel's

military action ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7809755.stm (SEE ... In pictures: Conflict in Gaza )

[pjt7]

8. Obama needs to step into a leadership role

ASAP

I understand he is not in power, but 3 weeks is too long to let this go on.

[barb162]

11. I'll follow the Constitution on this one.

And who says he doesn't agree with Israel in any case?

[EFerrari]

14. The Constitution supports freedom of speech.

And agreeing with Israel today pretty much means agreeing to violations of international law. Not that that has stopped any of our leading politicians from doing so.

[barb162]

15. I believe the poster was discussing presidential inauguration timing

And agreeing with Israel today pretty much means one believes in self -defense.

[EFerrari]

17. Self defense? That is the talking point, you're right.

[DutchLiberal]

24. What about the Palestinians' right to self-defense?

If a foreign military power would occupy my territory, and steal the remaining land I had to built 'settlements' (= colonies) for their people, driving me and my people into poverty, I would consider it my right to launch a few rockets.

[barb162]

38. Israel hasn't "occupied" Gaza for a few years now; still the rocket attacks continue

by the Gazans. What do you expect Israel to do? Self defense is an inherent right.

[High Plains]

43. You are being disingenous, and I suspect you know it.

Yes, Israel withdrew its troops in 2005. But it continues to impose a blockade, holds up supplies of food and medicine, attacks Gaza when it feels like, kills Palestinians at will, and subjects them to the daily humiliations of life under the jackboot.

It has the Gazans trapped. Why is it that Israel thinks it has the right to control access to Gaza?

I expect Israel to be smart, not just murderous. But I don't know why I expect that. Israel has been murderous for decades now. When I was a young man, I supported Israel, the underdog. Not anymore. It is a brutal, thuggish regime.

You can support Israel if you wish. But doing so by supporting the blood-thirsty Likudniks doesn't seem very smart.

[DutchLiberal]

51. Not 'occupied' directly, no. But Israel still controls their lives.

Controls their living conditions, their borders, their air space, their electricity supplies, they control the West Bank etc.

[WriteDown]

53. Seems that Gaza also borders another country...

Maybe Hamas would rather the Palestinians be ruled by Jordan. Few in the Arab world complained about it in those days.

[DutchLiberal]

55. Gaza doesn't border Jordan. It borders Egypt.

[WriteDown]

56. No (I was talking about Egypt)...

but the Palestinians were ruled by Jordan before the late 60's.

[SOS]

61. Wrong

Gaza control:

Before 1918: Ottoman Empire
1918-1948: Britain
1948 - 1967; Egypt
1967 - 1994 Israel

[WriteDown]

62. My apologies...

Egypt. My point still holds. Jordan did control part of the claimed Palestinian territory though.

[Mojorabbit]

64. Not in my book it doesn't

This is not self defense.

[Ken Burch]

26. Brave people. The IDF is no doubt beating the shit out of a lot of them

For committing the terrorist act of free speech.

How dare they ask that the killing stop?

[Irvinwalker]

10. Let's hope this doesn't affect Iraq

This offensive might anger Muslims in Iraq who may set out to attack Western target in retaliation. Some truce must be achieved.

[Hieronymus]

19. I'm literally sickened by the twisting of the facts by Israeli representatives.

[EFerrari]

25. I've been nauseous for days.

[Karenina]

29. I, for decades...

[Hardrada]

30. Same here.

[StudsT]

40. exactly, this apartheid has been going on for decades and the dissembling by the M$M is GROSS

and so it goes...

StudsT

[BelgianMadCow]

45. Protest rallies in 3 cities in Belgium too

varying from couple hundreds to 1200 protesters.

[ave]

49. numbers in Amsterdam

...
"Police said about 1,500 people marched through Amsterdam."
...

Here's some footage of it. The number of people seem a bit more to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78VcKje_dqQ&feature=channel

It was organized by several groups among which "A Different Jewish Voice".
Their website is in Dutch but many of the articles are in English.
http://www.eajg.nl/index.asp?navitemid=12&type=3&item=2106