Law on Flu Vaccinations May Be Tested

[depakid]

Source: NY Times



THE state’s new law requiring young children attending licensed pre-school and child care centers to get flu vaccinations will be tested this week when thousands of children return to classrooms and playrooms after the long holiday break.

New Jersey, the first state in the nation to require flu shots for young schoolchildren, set a Dec. 31 deadline for parents to obtain flu vaccinations for their children. It was part of a new policy requiring a total of four additional immunizations for schoolchildren over the objections of some parents who worry about possible risks from vaccinations.

The requirement applies to children between 6 months and 5 years who are attending licensed day care and preschool programs. State public health experts said that flu shots for young children are important for overall public health.

“Stopping flu transmission among kids will stop flu transmission in the community at large,” said Dr. Tina Tan, the state epidemiologist.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/nyregion/new-jersey/04flunj.html

---

Legally, the matter's been settled since 1905.

See Jacobson v. Massachusetts, http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=197&invol=11

[Ian David]

1. Those idiots should just move to their own fucking island of unvaccinated filfthmongers. n/t

[villager]

2. I trust then, that you're in favor of *you* being legally forced to get a flu shot

Regardless of the particulars of that year's flu season, and revelations about the efficacy of that year's innoculations (since it's always a "best guess") etc.?

In fact, despite this year's low flu activity, we can all trust that you have your shots?

[depakid]

4. "this year's low flu activity" ???

Tic Toc

Killer Oz flu blamed for UK outbreak
January 2, 2009

A deadly Australian flu strain that killed six children is being blamed for a major outbreak in the United Kingdom that is overwhelming health services.

The Australia bug, known as Brisbane H3N2, is believed to be behind an influx of flu patients filling GP surgeries and emergency departments in the UK. Britain's Daily Mail reported the "killer Australian flu" was behind the worst flu season in the country since 1999 when 22,000 people died.

The paper reported that out-of-hours calls to GPs had risen 60 per cent in some areas over the holiday period with an average increase of 25 per cent.

The strain of Influenza A was blamed for the deaths of six children across four states in Australia in 2007. European experts have warned that flu will continue to sweep across Europe in the new year with the Brisbane H3N2 strain the most prevalent.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/killer-oz-flu-blamed-for-uk-outbreak-20090102-78vd.html

[villager]

27. Yes -- in the U.S.:

http://www.google.org/flutrends/


Unless you think US children should be vaccinated against strains in other countries?

And the doctors I've spoken to about this year's flu acknowledge that what's in the shot here is just a "best guess" in terms of what may, or may not, "jump the ocean."

[depakid]

58. Influenza easily spreads- and will be expected to spread

from Europe (or Asia) to the US.

That's why the vaccine strains are chosen in the first place- and why it makes sense to get vaccinated and have immunity conferred BEFORE they get here.

[villager]

61. the strains that are chosen -- as doctors will tell you -- are "best guesses"

Sometimes, those guesses work. Last season, they didn't.

Right now, the strains in Europe aren't necessarily the ones in America's flu shots. Next season, they may be.

The point is, flu shots aren't a panacea, or guarantee, either. Not only that, there aren't actually enough vaccines made for everyone, so better to leave them for high risk groups.

But again, this is just crazy-ass talk I get from practicing general med doctors.

[depakid]

65. The current epidemic strain is covered- though there's always some cross-protection

This year's vaccine includes:

o A/Brisbane/59/2007(H1N1)-like virus;
o A/Brisbane/10/2007 (H3N2)-like virus;
o B/Florida/4/2006-like virus.

[villager]

66. First off, it's not an epidemic here. Secondly, there are other Brisbane strains

and the doctors I've spoken with weren't convinced that the potentially "pandemic" strains were addressed in the current American flu shot...-

[depakid]

67. The point is to prevent a foreseeable epidemic before it occurs

In addition, it appears that your doctors may not have been reading the current survellience reports, because the strains most involved in the British and European outbreaks/epidemics are covered in this years' vaccine.

And they're just a plane flight away....

[villager]

74. if they were covered in last year's generally unhelpful vaccine, *now*

that does anyone little good, since we only have *this* year's vaccine, and of course, not an unlimited amount of that.

Some of the pro-vaccine no-questions-asked voices here act as if the supply of flu vaccines is itself infinite, which has never been the case...

[Ian David]

7. Unvaccinated children commit murder when they play among the decent folk. Period. n/t

[villager]

28. Nice way to dodge the question. Period. n/t

[Ian David]

35. Oh, to answer your question, Yes. I am in favor of being legally forced myself to get a flu vaccine.

It is my civic duty, so I don't kill your grandmother or your children with my flu virus.

[villager]

36. So, did you *voluntarily* get this year's flu shot, ahead of that knock at the door you so love?

n/t

[Ian David]

52. Yes, my family and I did the socially responsible thing and voluntarily got flu shots. EARLY.

Because not only do we care about our own health, we also care about our fellow human beings, and we're not ignorant chicken littles.

There is no place in The Commons for socially irresponsible parasites who refuse vaccinations, unless they have a good reason, like an allergy or sensitivity to it.

[villager]

60. I talked to two actual practicing doctors, who said it wasn't a critical year

One runs a clinic, the other has a general practice in a large hospital. Both concur that for anyone outside the "risk" groups, flu shots -- this year -- aren't critical.

Of course, I imagine you know more about it than they do.

In any case, you may be overly angry, and mostly wrong, but at least you're consistent! I'll give you that!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

44. if vaccines work, then they will protect vaccinated children from non vaccinated children

I am not saying do away with all vaccines, just saying that some are
not necessary.

The flu vaccine is optional and doesn't always address the current virus.

And, if vaccines work - then they will protect those who get them.

[electron_blue]

47. Vaccines don't work at the 100% level. A small percentage of vax'd children will still get

the flu or whatever they are exposed to.

[Ms. Toad]

49. Unlike other vaccinations,

The flu vaccine does not specifically protect against the "illness" it is supposed to target. Other illnesses for which we vaccinate have relatively well defined strains (or consist of a single strain). Vaccines can be designed which target those other illnesses year after year - with one immunization (or series of immunizations) creating long term (several years) immunity.

Influenza is not one illness, but rather a lot of related illnesses that change from year to year. Flu vaccinations are based on the best guess as to what may develop in any given year. Last year's vaccination was a near total flop, and provided no protection against at least one of the major strains of flu circulating. Whether it they guessed any better this year has not yet been determined.

It is not just that flu vaccinations don't work at the 100% level - they don't even necessarily target the right virus (and when they do, then they still don't work at the 100% level).

I am all in favor of vaccinating against predictable illnesses, the severity of which outweighs the potential consequences of vaccinations (taking into account the relative likelihood of exposure, age, and other factors impact the severity of the illness or likelihood of contracting the illness). Tetanus and polio - for example - all for it. HiB vaccination - all for it for children under age 5 in child care settings. Beyond that, requiring HiB vaccination for kindergarten entry is just silly (HiB stops being a serious risk in late preschool age, and younger children who are not in child care settings are generally not exposed). Flu vaccine - I favor it on a case by case basis, the same with those for chicken pox, meningitis, and a few others that either pose serious risks to select populations - or are more commonly contracted in certain settings. HPV - my jury is still out on that one. I think eventually I would support it being mandatory, but it hasn't been around long enough for me to be comfortable mandating it until more is known about the long term consequences of the vaccine itself.

[Ian David]

55. If 100% of people got vaccinated, and even if the vaccine only worked 50% of the time...

... then those for whom the vaccine did not work would be exposed to 50% fewer infected people.

So, fuck those who refuse to be vaccinated.

[Ian David]

53. Except those who are too young, or are immunocompromised who YOU will MURDER.

Every time a child who is too young to be vaccinated dies of an illness like mumps or measles in America, it is because some ignorant parasite who believes The Social Contract doesn't apply to them has selfishly decided to forgo vaccination for themselves or their own children.

Throw your own infested brood over a cliff if you like, but you have no right to murder others in your wake.

[GinaMaria]

56. Saw a child die of Measles

it was truly horrible. she was immunocompromised due to Chemotherapy and could not get vaccines b/c of this. She was exposed to another child with measles in a social gathering. I still think of her twenty years later.

As someone who gets the flu every year for Christmas (work with children, live downtown, work in a large office environment)I now get a flu shot every November. It's my xmas present to myself. Just can't spend another holiday dehydrated with fever and chills. It's so miserable. I would take 50% protection from the flu as opposed to nothing.

For those that never catch the flu, I can appreciate your not wanting the vaccine. It really depends on your work environment, your risk and your personal health.

[Ian David]

57. And people who WOULD NOT vaccinate killed the little girl they COULD NOT vaccinate.

Her blood, and the blood of others like her, is on their ignorant, selfish hands.

Anti-Vaccination people are murderers. They have blood on their hands and deaths on their heads.

[shanti]

3. wtf??

filthmongers? you know what, i've NEVER had a flu vaccine and haven't had the flu in probably 10 YEARS. i always vaccinated all four of my sons, but never for flu.

way to paint it! :(

[elleng]

5. Watch your language.

You won't persuade anyone that way. WHO's the idiot?

[Ian David]

11. The anti-vac position and those who hold it are irrational and beyond persuaision.

Every one of their "issues" has been asked and answered a million times over.

I am tired of trying to "persuade" selfish parasites whose children are alive only because other parents have done the socially responsible thing and vaccinated THEIR kids.

So, fuck them all.

I am done with persuading and will content myself with expressing the most contempt for them that I have for any other human being anywhere.

There is no room for them in a civil society that cares about its citizens or the welfare of others.

They're more than welcome to throw their own Typhoid Mary children off a cliff, but they are not welcome to throw MINE over with them.

So, fuck them all.

Vaccinate your damn kids or move to another country where they don't have vaccinations.

[Green Mountain Dem]

13. Tell that to my daughter.....

who suffered brain trauma at 18 mos old from the DPT vac which the government knew was contaminated and has been for years. It is the Pertussis or "whooping cough" part that is and was the culprit. The government set up a super fund to settle claims generated from this contamination and has paid millions and millions of dolllars to keep parents quiet about the affects of these required vacs. Our daughter is now 30 yrs old and still lives with us and leads a fairly normal life under the circumstances. For years she required daily care and assistance but I will never regret spending my time with her. I still blame pediatricians for not informing parents of the possible dangers when giving these shots so that they might be more observant of any side effects.

[elleng]

15. My daughter had what I considered to have been

highly unusual crying after receiving first DPT, and doc agreed that she need never have such vacc again; fortunately, no adverse effects. Peace to you and your daughter.

[Ian David]

18. Operative phrase being "Highly Unusual." I hope she's okay. n/t

[elleng]

20. She's fine, thanks.

College graduate; emotional issues. 'Normal.'

[elleng]

16. I'm tired to death of people around here using foul words

as part of their comments, THAT was my point. GOT IT?

[Ian David]

17. Get over it. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

32. You know

I'm pro-vaccine for pretty much everything.

But a flu shot? I've never gotten one, and I haven't had the flu since I was a teen. I was told by my doctor this year that since I was healthy it wasn't necessary. (I asked about it three weeks ago during my annual physical.) She didn't seem all that concerned. Every year I hear that those sick, the elderly, and those in the most danger should get the shot.

"Filthmongerer?"

That's humorous.

[Ms. Toad]

51. black, meet white.

There are a number of us who hold positions which are neither 100% in favor of vaccinating every child/person for every possible illness for which a vaccination is created NOR 100% opposed to all vaccinations.

Vaccinations have their place, but they are not without potential harm and should not be used indiscriminately - as there is an increasing tendency to do lately. Vaccines should be used to prevent seriously life threatening/disabling illnesses. They are also appropriate for less serious illnesses (or more seriousillnesses/low exposure risk) by individuals whose particular circumstances make the normally less serious illness pose a particular risk - or whose life circumstances place them enough more at risk for exposure that the risks of remaining unvaccinated are greater than any risks associated with the illnesses for which vaccines are being suggested (such as travelers to malarial areas, or pre-school infants in child care with respect to HiB).

[depakid]

62. "travelers to malarial areas"

Unfortunately, there's not yet a vaccination for malaria- but things appear to be looking up:

See: Malaria Vaccine Effective in Latest Trials.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3637181

[Ms. Toad]

68. Hmm. . .brain fart.

Thanks for the correction. Guess I was just thinking about taking anti-malarial drugs in advance of travel - I travel occasionally to a borderline area and had a discussion about whether advance precautions were necessary. Guess my brain spaced out as to the nature of advance precautions.

Same sentiment - when it becomes available.

(Edited because commas and periods look the same in the message entry box :)

[depakid]

71. No worries

There are usally plenty of other nasties to guard against in areas where malaria is prevalent.

[happyslug]

84. Malaria is NOT a viral inflection, and vaccine work best against Viruses

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria#Malaria_parasites

Vaccination is most effective against VIRAL infections NOT protozoan (Single Cell) based infections. The reason for this is Virus invade a cell by penetrating the cell and then attaching itself to the DNA of the Cell. The DNA is designed to divide every so often to make new Cells The Virus attaches itself to the DNA and then uses the cells own resources to make more cells to make more viruses instead. How the body gets rid of Viruses is still unknown. White blood cells are used by the body to detect CELLULAR based invaders, but white Blood cells seem to be in-effective against Viruses. Some how the bodies develop Anti-Bodies against viruses but that requires exposure to the Virus first, and that is how Vaccinations works in cases of Viruses. i.e. one gets a vaccination b is shooting someone with e dead or weakened version of the Virus so the body learns about it and once the body learns of a Virus, it subsequently can detect it and eliminate it quickly (AIDs and Colds survive in Human by constantly changing, each new Cold is viewed by the body as a new infection which MUST be eliminated by a new set of anti-bodies, AIDS is even nastier, the body does develop Anti)Bodies that eliminates one version of AIDS, then AIDS modifies itself to a different form, and the body has to come up with a new set of Anti-bodies. This war between the AIDS Virus and the Body's Antibodies swing back and forth until the body is so weaken by the constant war between the two that the body dies from some other disease that the body is to weak to defeat).

Protozoan inflections attack the cells from the outside of the cell, NOT the inside like Viruses. Protozoan divide like any other cell, for that what they are. These can be easily detected by White Blood Cells and removed unless the invaders have developed a way to avoid detection. One way is to have an outside that constantly changing, so that the White Blood Cells have a difficult time detecting it. Notice the difference between the body's attack on Viral infections, which is done by Anti-Bodies, which can be strengthened by Vaccines made up of dead or weaken forms of the Virus, and the body's use of White Blood Cells to destroy invading Cells (Protozoan). The invading Protozoan are in many ways to large to be handled by the Anti-bodies, the larger White Blood Cells defends the body instead. In some ways the White Blood Cells are quicker, they detect the invading substance and destroy them, but given that such cells are always changing Anti-bodies seems to be ineffective against them.

My point here is that so far most (if not all) vaccines have been against Viral infections and must be given BEFORE you come down with the Viral infection (Even the only Viral infection that a "Cure" has been developed over the last 200 years, Rabies, is done by shooting dead or weaken Rabies viruses into the body of the person bitten, building up the bodies immunity to the Virus infection that, in rabies, can take months to develop). Protozoan infections, on the other hand, are generally treated with some sort of attack on the CELLS of the infection, Penicillin and the other "wonder" drugs of the last 60 years, attack Protozoans in the body. When it comes to Malaria traditional Penicillin type drugs are ineffective and drugs developed just against it has been found to be the most effective. Vaccinations seems to be ineffective against such infections except maybe to speed up the White Blood Cells ability to recognize the infection. A Vaccine can be hoped for, but as a generally rule vaccines are ineffective against Protozoan infections.

[arikara]

63. Good grief

:wtf:

[goforit]

6. I'm sure you would love to have Rumsfeld give you your vaccinations personally.

You go bud...... step up like a ditz and believe that the US gov't is giving the "real Flu vaccine"

[silverojo]

31. You're an idiot.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

At the age of 8, I became deathly ill from a vaccine, and so have thousands of other kids. Furthermore, flu vaccines have NEVER helped me avoid the flu.

Want to stop flu outbreaks at school? Here's how: Parents, KEEP YOUR KIDS AT FREAKIN' HOME WHEN THEY'RE FEELING BAD AND THEIR HEADS ARE SNOT-FAUCETS. Schools: QUIT TELLING KIDS TO COME BACK TO SCHOOL WHEN THEY'RE SICK.

Avoidance and good hygiene stop flu outbreaks far more efficiently than vaccines.

Flu vaccines exist for only one reason: To make money for Big Pharma.

The only thing "filthy" in this thread is how you want to force harmful shots on innocent kids.

[Tumbulu]

69. They also exist because parents cannot stay home with sick children anymore

and schools depend on kids coming to school to get their funding per day per kid.

The public school near me notifies Child Protective Services if a child misses more than 10 days from school in a year, even if the illnesses are being treated by a doctor. So the parents are forced to send sick children to school or go to a private school where they can keep sick children home.

The whole situation is sure to produce an epidemic someday. People demand more vaccines from the medical community, more people freak out because now there are too many shots, a viscous cycle. I think that it comes down to no one wanting day care children to get any illnesses and thus they vaccinate for every possible thing so that parents can keep up being good corporate laborers/slaves.

[OregonBlue]

43. Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

[GodlessBiker]

8. Since 1905? Plessy v. Ferguson was settled law for a long time, too.

[truedelphi]

9. Excellent point to consider n/t

[Wizard777]

10. Thisis is telling. “If you don’t vaccinate your child, you’re putting my child at risk,” Said Dr Tol...

Apparently Dr. Tolan of the CDC wants to force you to vaccinate your kids so he doesn't have to vaccinate his kid. Because if his kid had the vaccination and it worked. Your kids flu wouldn't put his kid at risk. The vaccine would protect his kid. Looks like Dr. Tolan stepped in it big time. Those words will haunt him and his efforts. Now Dr. Tolan will have to put on a big dog & pony show with having his kids vaccinated in a media spectacle.

[depakid]

12. Incorrect

Vaccines don't have 100% efficacy, so some kids who are vaccinated won't attain immunity- or will attain lesser degrees of immunity. Moreover, there valid medical reasons (as opposed to fundamentalist or conspiratorial beliefs) why certain kids can't be vaccinated.

Then of course, there are other members of the community- including immunocompromised individuals, for who influenza may well be a death sentence.

The key is to have enough people and especially kids vaccinated to create what's called "herd immunity" -a condition in a population where the virus won't have the opportunity to spread from isolated case to dozens of others exponentially.

This is why willful failure to vaccinate your kids against preventable disease not only constitutes child neglect- but also endangers the health and lives of many others throughout the community.

[Wizard777]

14. But that's not what Dr. Tolan said and you know the conspiratorial beliefs people will take it that ...

Buy I also see it as a fundamental violation of patient rights. The right to refuse medication and procedures. I'm in one of the "danger groups." The elderly. I'm 77. I don't get flu shots. Going into flu season I load up on Zinc. I do fine. I tried the flu vaccines in my 60's. They sap my strength and energy. The Zinc doesn't do that to me. Even with the flu vaccines I still got the flu a couple of times. At least with the Zinc if I get the flu it's not as severe.

[du_grad]

24. Kids with Pertussis cough for three months!

My 87 year old mother tells me about when she and her siblings contracted whooping cough. They were in quarantine. They were coughing so hard they vomited. My grandmother put a bucket out in the back yard so they could go out there and vomit into it during their coughing spells. I saw a movie when I took Pathogenic Microbiology in 1970 of an 8 month old girl with pertussis (whooping cough). She had thick mucus coming out of her nose and mouth copiously. She could not breathe while she was coughing. It was one of the most pathetic visions I have ever seen. WHY would you people want to sentence your children to possibly choking on their own secretions and not being able to keep down food because of your fears? I guarantee that if you saw the movie that I did, you would reconsider. They call this the 100 day cough. Once the child starts coughing, antibiotics do not do any good. Testing for it is difficult (see end of second and third video). My lab now does PCR testing for Pertussis, as culturing on Bordet-Gengou agar is a crap shoot; the bug doesn't normally grow very well and takes about five days to show up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ5jf-5MobE&feature=related - this appears to be similar to what I saw in my class in 1970. Hope you have a strong stomach. All adults who refuse vaccination for their children should be shown this video. Your child will be spreading it around through the copious mucus production and you will be on call day and night for three months to clear mucus from their airways. It's not pretty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCCEPtjuoT0&feature=related - doctor with information regarding Pertussis (very good)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XaKMiNECyI&feature=channel - more from a Pediatric ID doc regarding the newer DPT vaccinations, PCR testing, and treatment

http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2008/11/03/underrated-vaccines/

For the life of me, I just cannot understand why people would possibly choose severe illness over getting a vaccination. After strolling through a couple of old cemeteries with many dead children who probably died of complications of "childhood" illnesses back in the 1800's, I don't know why people would want to expose their children to these diseases.

I was born in 1949. I got the smallpox vaccination and a pertussis vaccine. I contracted Rubeola ("hard" measles) and Rubella ("three day" measles), and chicken pox (I never got mumps for some reason - there was no vaccine then). I was very ill with Rubeola for two weeks, with very high fevers and I lost quite a bit of weight at age 4. My mother has pictures of me during and post-recovery. I looked pretty sick, but luckily experienced no central nervous system sequelae that I know of. I got the Salk and Sabin vaccine for polio when I was in grade school. I have gotten flu shots every year since they offered them and have never contracted influenza.

True influenza (the respiratory disease - the "puke flu" is not true influenza) has its own set of serious side effects, high fever and inability to breathe on your own being the biggest. You can also contract bacterial pneumonia on top of the viral pneumonia. If everyone in this country decided not to get vaccinated there would not be enough hospital beds to hold everyone and, indeed, we would end up with 1918 all over again, with people dying in their homes with nobody to tend to them as the whole family would be gasping for breath.

I work in health care and am a microbiologist. I would assume I would be one of the health care workers who would be in line to get anti-influenza drugs/vaccine should we get a huge outbreak, as our department handles the nasal washes and swabs, etc. that test for influenza. I am not afraid of vaccines. I have been sick enough in my life to know that, if I can at all avoid it, I will wince, take the shot, and move on with my life. I cannot imagine the chaos that would ensue in my lab and in labs across the country if we had a flu pandemic. It's something I do not ever want to experience.

There are public health laws for a reason. People just do not realize how quickly respiratory diseases can spread throughout a population. Back at the turn of the century nearly 1/3 of the population between the ages of 15-45 were infected with tuberculosis. Viral diseases are spread MUCH more quickly than TB. I know there are laws on the books demanding quarantining of people with TB. Why do people put influenza in a different category than tuberculosis? You can demand your rights as much as you want, but I don't want YOU coughing in my face.

To the elderly 77 year old who posted: if you contract pneumonia and are hospitalized, you face a 10-25% mortality. That's a 1 in four/five chance that you will die.

http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/how_serious_pneumonia_000064_4.htm

This is old - from 1995 - but gives you some statistics from the CDC. Apparently you like to live life like a crap shoot - eventually the zinc dice may not work. I'd go for the shot myself:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00039389.htm (P&I=pneumonia and influenza)

"In 1992, persons aged greater than or equal to 65 years accounted for 89% of all P&I deaths. From 1979 to 1992, P&I death rates for persons aged greater than or equal to 65 years increased 44%, from 145.6 deaths per 100,000 population to 209.1. During this period, rates also increased for persons aged 20-44 years; however, the small number of deaths among persons in this age group (2148 in 1992) limited the contribution to the overall trend."

[Wizard777]

29. I don't agree with it entirely. But I do support the right to refuse medication of any kind.

I have been given medicines that had side effects so horrible. I would rather die than take them again. In fact I would kill any doctor trying to give them to me. But these parents believe they are protecting their child from greater harm that will last a lifetime. I can understand that. I've seen yesterdays cutting edge medical technology become todays quackery. I grew up in the days of Edison's medicine. When the cure for everything was an electric shock. Some of that actually survived and made it's way into legitimate medicine. We still treat heart attack with electric shock. So not all of Edison's medicine was quackery. But that exact same shock that restarts the heart can also stop a healthy heart. Just because researchers haven't found a link between the vaccines and autism. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I think your on the right track to overcoming their fears and that is to educate those parents. Phantom fears of what could be. They can be more powerful than the dangers that are right in front of your face. Haven't we all done that to death for the last 8 years? So I understand where they are coming from. But the key here is to educate them. Not legislative force. They'll take their kids and run.

As for me. Yeah I live my life like its a crap shoot. If you think about it. That's all it ever really is. I'm a retired bodyguard. Believe me I've taken much greater risks with my life than turning down a flu shot. :rofl: Never mind needles, I've taken shots from a gun. I'm very familiar with risk management and I think my risk management is working well. How do I know this? I'm still alive. But another thing that got me off flu shots was a period in which I got my flu shots but still got the flu. Every years there was a new strain that the vaccine didn't cover. So I went back to the old ways. Cycling zinc and silver. Zinc can be toxic if you take it for too long. So you cover the periods off zinc with silver. The antibiotics of yesteryear still work too. They work better than todays antibiotics. Zinc can actually help reduce the severity of colds and flu. Todays antibiotics can't do that. Zinc also helps the upper respiratory system. When I was growing up we didn't have a sink. We had a Zink. That's not an accent thing. A "zink" is a sink that's coated with zinc. We kept chickens in the backyard that Mom butchered at the zinc. Zinc is an antiseptic. Bacteria won't grow on it. Homes with zinks were healthier than ones that didn't have them. I can remember Mom telling other wives in the neighborhood to get a zink and you won't have nearly as many health problems.

[du_grad]

70. Antibiotics of yesteryear

It depends on what antibiotic you're talking about vs. what organism. I have been a clinical microbiologist since 1974. Many organisms were treated with antibiotics then that just will not work any more because the "bugs" themselves have grown resistant. If you try to treat Staphylococcus aureus or its newer more deadly strain, MRSA, with Penicillin, it probably will not work at all. When Penicillin was first discovered, Staphylococcus was sensitive to it. It quickly developed a work-around, and most Staph. were resistant to Penicillin when I started working in micro in 1974. MRSA reared its ugly head in the mid-80's and now accounts for nearly 60% of Staph. aureus isolates in clinical laboratories in this country.

So, yes, Penicillin still works for other organisms (Group A Beta Streptococcus, the causative agent of strep throat is still sensitive to it). However, no doctor in their right mind would prescribe Penicillin for a Staph infection any more. It just won't work. To make a blanket statement that "old" antibiotics work better than "new" antibiotics is just plain wrong. When faced with extremely resistant organisms docs have no choice but to use new third and fourth generation antibiotics because not to do so means certain death. These drugs are not used for outpatients - they are used as IV antibiotics in seriously ill patients in ICU's. The general public does not realize the resistance problem that is out there right now today with hospital-acquired infections. I see it every day I work.

Yes, there are some studies that show that zinc lozenges help stave off colds. I personally can't stand their taste. You also must be careful of metal poisoning with silver.

Yes, I suppose you could have a zinc sink but most women today would find them pretty ugly. Cleaning your sink with bleach cleaner is effective against microorganisms. Your kitchen sink is probably the dirtiest place in your house - probably equally so to a toilet if you haven't cleaned it recently.

Electric shock treatment is still being used for very severe depression because sometimes it's the only thing that works. I'm not saying that I approve it or it's a good thing, but I've read recently that in very difficult cases (where the patient is catatonic) the patient does come out of catatonia when treated this way.

The fact that you're still alive at age 77 says that you're doing quite well. However, please don't make a lot of assumptions about microorganisms. They will be here on earth long after we're all dead and gone.

[nodehopper]

22. clearly you are unfamiliar with the concept of herd immunity

[Just-plain-Kathy]

19. I stopped giving my kids flu shots when I read most of them contain mercury. ...n/t

[depakid]

21. Easy to remedy that fear:

For the 2008-09 season, there is one product licensed for 6-23 month old children (the product is thimerosal-free). For children between the ages of 2 and 5 years of age, there are three products available that are thimerosal-free (sanofi's Fluzone; MedImmune's FluMist) or preservative-free (trace thimerosal- ). Specific information about these products and other influenza vaccines can be found in the Table: Influenza Vaccine Manufacturers for the 2008-09 Influenza Season. Given the uptake of influenza vaccine among children less than 5 years of age, and the anticipated increase in vaccination coverage for this season, CDC projects that the vaccine supply for this age group will be adequate to meet demand.

http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm

[Samantha]

23. I have never had a flu shot

and I have never had the flu.

I would be incensed if someone tried to force me to have one.

Sam

[Tumbulu]

25. I would not want to be forced to have one either, but if a person wants to leave children

in a public place, then these are the current requirements, it seems.

I personally cannot imagine leaving a baby in childcare. I am sorry for all that have to do so who do not want to but are forced to by economics. It must make it all the more difficult for those that must leave their little ones in a public setting to have to add yet another shot to the long list of them. The whole situation makes me ache.

No one should be forced by economics to leave their children in public care. I think that that is the real issue.

[WriteDown]

33. I'm fairly certain that typhoid Mary...

Never had typhoid either (or at least symptoms).

[bobshin]

26. Utter bull sponsored by your local drug conglomerate....

of course most people trust these medical falacies over trusting their own judgement. And the government is not in the business of hurting a profit margin of one of its biggest lobbyists and source for most of its "health" department employees.

FYI, do a little digging. It's worth the read: Bechamp (from whom Pasteur stole and twisted the facts upside down)- but don't take my word for it. Pasteur was as much a hero to public health as Bush II is to Iraq.

[nodehopper]

30. flu vaccines don't just protect YOU!

flu vaccines protect the general population by minimizing the chance of new flu strains emerging. new flu strains can evolve when more than one virus strain is inside a host, and DNA swapping occurs. if you are vaccinated for the flu, and you still end up getting another flu strain that is going around that season, that doesn't mean that the flu vaccine was ineffective from a public health perspective.

[WriteDown]

34. Be careful....

you're talking science now which some are fearful towards :). I wonder how many posters would like to be a carrier of the flu vaccine and then unwittingly visit an elderly relative in a nursing home.

[redqueen]

39. Wow... I didn't know that about DNA swapping.

Thanks for mentioning it.

[nodehopper]

45. it's one of the things mentioned frequently w/r/t the possibility of the avian flu pandemic

Flu viruses often swap genetic material with other flu viruses when they jump species. If someone was infected with the avian flu via bird-to-human transmission, and they were a host for another strain of "human" flu at the same time, that would be one scenario of how avian flu could evolve into a virus capable of human-to-human transmission.

[nodehopper]

48. here is some more information about it if you are interested

http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-news/Enlisting-genomics-to-understand-flu-evolution-965-1/


"In the first large-scale effort to sequence the flu genome, Edward Holmes, David Lipman, and colleagues examined the genomes of 156 influenza A viruses (serotype H3N2) collected by New York State public health officials between 1999 and 2004. "We found that there are co-circulating minor variants that are not infecting many people," says Lipman. "One of these can become the next epidemic strain."

These co-circulating viruses can exchange genes in a way that creates novel, epidemiologically significant strains--a process that can occur when someone is infected simultaneously by more than one strain. The genetic reshuffling demonstrated in this study is the first to examine in detail a reassortment event from a persistently cocirculating minor strain to a previously dominant strain leading to an epidemiologically significant outcome--the emergence of the "Fujian" strain in the 2003-2004 flu season."

[redqueen]

50. I am!

Thank you!

I'm also sending you a PM...

[fascisthunter]

37. yor paperz... pleeze!

[zelta gaisma]

38. i don't care about the flu but

but the ones that can kill... not negotiable
* Diphtheria (DTaP, Td, Tdap*)
* Hepatitis A
* Hepatitis B
* Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib)
* Measles (MMR)
* Mumps (MMR)
* Pertussis (DTaP, Tdap*)
* Pneumococcal
* Polio
* Rubella (MMR)
* Tetanus (DTaP, DTaP, Td)

[WriteDown]

40. The flu can most certainly kill nt.

[zelta gaisma]

41. only the very old and young these days right? i've never heard/known ANYONE die of it personally

[WriteDown]

42. For the most part...

but there hasn't been a "bad" strain for a while. All it takes is one infected person to walk into a daycare or a nursing home for there to be a tragedy though.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. But healthy people can spread it to the very old and very young.

Vaccinating everybody saves a lot of lives.

[martymar64]

59. If it'll be mandatory, then it must be absolutely free for everyone.

Let the Gov't pay for all vaccinations and all development of vaccines. Private enterprise must be kept out of the picture, period. Gov't labs and gov't doctors only. This cannot be done for ANY profit for anyone.

Otherwise, it's just a cash cow for Big Pharma with captive guinea pigs..

[zelta gaisma]

64. i can agree with that completely. i got my kids shots at the health dept (paid for but still)

[Posteritatis]

83. And if the plural of anecdotes was data that would mean something

The flu kills a few hundred thousand people per year, and puts several times that in a position a little more severe than having to miss a couple of days of school or work. It's not a trivial disease for a lot of people.

And, as someone else said, you don't have to be symptomatic to have it and give it to, say, a very old or very young person. (Or a twenty-year-old with lung problems, at that.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. What a bunch of worthless fucks.

[Javaman]

72. So much ranting...

there are a few on this thread that have a clue but for the most part, many are just spouting ignorance.

do you know that each year the flu shot this is put out for general distribution is based upon the opinion of doctors as to what they think will be the most likely strain to infect the population?

do you also know, that it's a crap shoot since there are many many strains of flu?

The reality is this; if you want to get a flu shot, get one AFTER there is an outbreak. Why? because then, the various researchers have an identified strain and can manufacture an appropriate vaccination.

Preventive medicine only works when you know what you want to prevent.

As for myself, I would get a flu shot every single year and every single year, I would, without fail, get the flu.

Once I stopped getting the shot, I stopped getting the flu.

Now, I'm not saying there is a cause and effect here, just a coincidence. But I do believe that the same people recommending the flu shot are also the same people that also like to push various flu meds via pharma reps. Money.

Here is something very simple to do. Wash your hands. Don't touch your face with your fingers.

I do these two very basic things and guess what? no flu.

[lisentric]

73. Wow, someone actually gets it

thank you Javaman for your comments. Not too many people understand the evolution of viruses, apparently, and how all of our vaccinations over time promote super strains that require even stronger medicine next generation around. A less toxic environment which doesn't strain our immune systems would help us humans to fight off some of these attacks too. Oh, too late for that........

[nodehopper]

77. yes, that would be why in pre-industrial Europe

in a "less toxic environment" mortality from diseases which had no vaccinations was so much lower than it is now...oh wait NO IT WASN'T

[Javaman]

79. oh wait, wasn't pre-industrial europe a fucking sty? And that they only bathed once a month if that?

and most lived in filth because there was no sanitation?

oh yeah, those pesky little details.

[nodehopper]

81. right, they didn't have

running water, or mass-produced antibacterial soap, or waste treatment plants, all those things that appeared as a part of the infrastructure of toxic industrialization, at least in the "first" world.

[depakid]

75. "get one AFTER there is an outbreak"

Provided the outbreak is in Asia and the Southern Hemisphere...

Otherwise, if you're out and about where you're likely to be exposed, you're just asking to get very sick -and pass it along to others.

A nasty A strain isn't "flu like symptoms" that come with the usual resperatory tract infections... though all too many people think so (until they've actually experienced it, that is).

[nodehopper]

76. clearly you understand nothing about the value of flu vaccines from a public health perspective

if you are interested, read my posts slightly up the thread.

[Javaman]

78. You haven't a clue about me, nor my background.

so keep on believing what you want. that's your opinion. as is mine.

[nodehopper]

80. it's true

I have no clue about you or your background. I am going only on what you posted, which is this:

"do you also know, that it's a crap shoot since there are many many strains of flu?

The reality is this; if you want to get a flu shot, get one AFTER there is an outbreak. Why? because then, the various researchers have an identified strain and can manufacture an appropriate vaccination.

Preventive medicine only works when you know what you want to prevent. "

I feel pretty confident in saying that your thought process showes a lack of understanding of influenza vaccinations from a public health perspectives. Did you know that new, often virulent flu strains arise when someone is coinfected with two different virus strains simultaneously, because the strains can swap DNA inside the host body?

"As for myself, I would get a flu shot every single year and every single year, I would, without fail, get the flu.

Once I stopped getting the shot, I stopped getting the flu.

Now, I'm not saying there is a cause and effect here, just a coincidence."

then why are you bringing it up? It sounds like you are saying "I am not saying this but I kind of am."

"Here is something very simple to do. Wash your hands. Don't touch your face with your fingers. "

That is always good advice, and can certainly reduce people's risk of infection, but doesn't really do much for the fact that influenza is airborne.

[Javaman]

82. I stand corrected...

and really don't care want you think. have a nice day. :)

[happyslug]

85. I notice the NYT repeat the statement of no link between Vaccines and Autism

While there is SOME evidence of it, given that SOME Autism appears to be Mercury related. but before I go into that let me make it clear how Autism is defined. Autism, as defined, is defined as to its symptoms NOT its causation. Thus they may be more then one cause for Autism, the cases that link autism with Mercury is limited, and it is possible that Autism is caused by more then one thing, but lets look at Mercury and Autism first. While no one has made a connection between the vaccines and Autism, the reversed is also true, no one has shown that there is NO connection between the two. I quote one report:

There are many examples in medicine of disorders defined by a constellation of symptoms that have multiple etiologies, and autism is likely to be among them. Determining a specific cause in the individual is impossible unless the etiology is known and there is a biological marker. Determining causality with population-based methods such as epidemiological analysis requires either a well-defined at-risk population or a large effect in the general population. Absent biomarkers, well-defined risk factors, or large effect sizes, the committee cannot rule out, based on the epidemiological evidence, the possibility that vaccines contribute to autism in some small subset or very unusual circumstances. However, there is currently no evidence to support this hypothesis either.

IMMUNIZATION SAFETY REVIEW, VACCINES AND AUTISM, Immunization Safety Review Committee
Board on Health Promotion and Disease Prevention. INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES
http://specialchildren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=specialchildren&cdn=parenting&tm=6&f=10&su=p284.8.150.ip_&tt=15&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.nap.edu/books/030909237X/html

Other stories about Mercury and Autism:
http://www.safeminds.org/
http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html
http://thestatsblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/leading-scientific-experts-for-vaccine-mercury-autism-connection-disqualified-by-court-for-lack-of-expertise/

Autism is up despite the final removal of all Mercury from vaccines:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/dailydose/12/04/autism.mercury/index.html

There does appear to be a connection between Mercury EMISSIONS and Autism:
http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2008/04/25/Statistical_link_of_autism_mercury_sites/UPI-42201209101208/
http://www.autism.com/triggers/vaccine/mercury.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1318974&mesg_id=1319672

Previous threads on Mercury and Autism (With references to other sites to look at on this subject):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=250x3297#3356
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3305286&mesg_id=3308655

Just to point out while evidence is mounting of a connection between Mercury and Autism, Vaccines seems NOT to have been the cause (Through may have been a trigger, i.e. the last little bit of Mercury needed to trip the child into Autism, even while the main cause was something else and as a trigger would appear to many parents to be the cause).

A site that points out a study connecting increased availability of Cable and Autism:
http://www.slate.com/id/2151538

I suspect this has more to do with the fact Cable since 1980 reflects more affluence in an area which corresponds with increase electrical use and thus increase electrical generation and thus increase ligate coal burning, then increase watching of TV. I do NOT want to exclude TV watching, for it is PASSIVE i.e. nothing the child does causes the show to change, unlike a Human, for a human will change if the child does certain things, and learning how far you can go before that interaction occurs is part of brain development. Interesting report which basically say, get outside with your kids, DON'T stay at home with them and watch TV. Outside may be walking the child down the sidewalk, playing at the play yard, getting the child to meet other children (again interaction which requires the development of the brain to deal with people NOT just watch them).

[du_grad]

86. New evidence of vaccine safety in Italy

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20090126/D95UPP5O0.html

This study followed up kids who were vaccinated using different levels of thimerosol:

"CHICAGO (AP) - A new study from Italy adds to a mountain of evidence that a mercury-based preservative once used in many vaccines doesn't hurt children, offering more reassurance to parents.

In the early 1990s, thousands of healthy Italian babies in a study of whooping cough vaccines got two different amounts of the preservative thimerosal (pronounced thih-MEHR'-uh-sawl) from all their routine shots.

Ten years later, 1,403 of those children took a battery of brain function tests. Researchers found small differences in only two of 24 measurements and those "might be attributable to chance," they wrote in the February issue of the journal Pediatrics, which was released Monday.

Only one case of autism was found, and that was in the group that got the lower level of thimerosal...

Randomization sets the new study apart. The random assignment of children rules out the chance that factors other than thimerosal, such as education or poverty, caused the results.

Thimerosal, used in some vaccines to prevent the growth of bacteria and fungus, hasn't been in U.S. childhood vaccines since 2001, except for certain flu shots. Italy and other European nations began removing it in 1999. U.S. health officials recommended the removal of thimerosal as a precaution and to reduce the overall exposure of children to mercury."