No Pardon For (Scooter) Libby

[sabra]

Source: Newsweek

In a move that has keenly disappointed some of his strongest conservative allies, President Bush has decided not to pardon Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, for his 2007 conviction in the CIA leak case, two White House officials said Monday.

On Bush's last full day as president, Bush did commute the sentence of two former Border Patrol agents—Jose Compeon and Ignacio Ramos—for shooting a Mexican drug dealer and then lying about it. But White House press spokesman Tony Fratto told Newsweek "you should not expect any more" pardons and commutations from Bush before he leaves office Tuesday. Another senior official, who requested anonymity discussing sensitive matters, confirmed that no more pardons would be granted.

...

But the decision not to pardon Libby stunned some longtime Bush backers who had been quietly making the case for the former vice presidential aide in recent weeks. A number of Libby's allies had raised the issue with White House officials, arguing that as a loyal aide who played a key role in shaping Bush's foreign policy during the president's first term, including the decision to invade Iraq, Libby deserved to have the stain of his felony conviction erased from the record. In the only public sign of the lobbying campaign, The Wall Street Journal published an editorial strongly urging Libby's pardon.

"I'm flabbergasted," said one influential Republican activist, who had raised the issue with White House aides, but who asked not to be identified criticizing the president. Ambassador Richard Carlson, the vice chairman of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a neo-conservative think tank, added that he too was "shocked" at Bush's denial of a pardon for Libby. "George Bush has always prided himself on doing the right thing regardless of the polls or the pundits," Carlson said. "Now he is leaving office with a shameful cloud over his head." Carlson, who was among those who recently weighed in on behalf of Libby with the White House and previously raised money for his legal defense fund, said that Libby had taken a "knife in the heart" from critics of the president and deserved to have his conviction erased.


Read more: http://www.newsweek.com/id/180448

[Tiberius]

1. Wow!

I thought that was going to be a done deal for sure. I don't understand why he wouldn't pardon Libby - I thought this gang of hoodlums at least had loyalty to one another.

[Vanje]

5. Cheney has probably been pissing George off since , since,

since the "pretzel incident".
and Libby was never Bush's guy. He was Cheney's creature fully.

Libby probaby tried to tell Bush what to do,one time, and he didnt like it.
Verb tenses dont come easily for Bush, but spite does.

[roguevalley]

19. I think he's one of those who the more you push, he shoves back.

[Phred42]

25. It Ain't over till it's over

[Missy Vixen]

2. Again, the explanation

Scooter Libby is not getting a pardon because he would then be able to testify against BOTH Bush and Cheney in the Valerie Plame matter.

I might also mention that Libby would be ineligible to use the Fifth on the stand as well.

Does it become clear for everyone now that this was the plan all along?

Julie

[GentryDixon]

7. This has been my thought all along.

He cares for no one but himself. Conservative rhetoric be damned.

Remember, he is the decider.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. Can you say more about this?

Fascinating. I've never heard this before.

Thanks.

[Missy Vixen]

34. The former federal prosecutors that hang at

www.firedoglake.com explained this during the Libby trial, then again during the commutation of his sentencing. Let's see if I can do them justice here. Disclaimer: Not an attorney, did not go to law school.

Scooter can't be pardoned. After all, if he was, Bush and Cheney's firewall re: Valerie Plame has collapsed. Fitzgerald needed his testimony to indict both of them, and he couldn't get it. The Bushies probably believed the case would never see the inside of a courtroom due to national security issues. Then they believed Fitzgerald and staff could not get a conviction. The decision to commute Libby's sentence was most likely made post-conviction. Libby's wife is a lawyer. I'm sure she leaned on him big-time to start talking before that sentence was commuted.

Here's the scary thing about the commutation, at least to me. Libby lost his law license over this. He won't go to jail, but where will he work? He is still so loyal to them that he would rather keep quiet about what he knows, let them trash his entire life, than actually stand up.

Okay. If there is no crime due to a pardon, Libby would be ineligible to take the Fifth Amendment during any testimony he'd be compelled to offer as quickly as a subpoena could be on its way to his house.

This is my understanding. Anyone with questions, please go to the Libby case archives at www.firedoglake.com.

Julie

p.s. Okay. The other slight issue with trying Rove, Cheney and Bush for their various crimes against Valerie Plame and others: Greymail. Greymail is the name for national security issues in open court. It threatened to derail the Libby trial before it even started. The only way there would EVER be a trial is if the case were tried in Congress, believe it or not. Those folks have the security and intelligence clearances to actually be able to listen to testimony involved. Patrick Fitzgerald practically got on his knees and begged Congress to take this up. They, to this day, have not.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

44. Libby can be pardoned.

Of course he can. All a pardon does is make his conviction as if it never happened. He could get his law license back, but, really, he doesn't need it to work in DC. Lots of jobs for old Scooter in Republican lobbying firms, believe me. He's not gonna starve.

Commutation or pardon, he could be subpoenaed to testify. Nothing in either prohibits his testimony. Whoever told you otherwise was wrong.

But, the PS you included was starkly in error. Graymail is the threat to disclose national security matters in public - i.e., open court - in order to avoid prosecution. Graymail was never an issue in what Patrick Fitzgerald was trying to do. The law under which he was trying to bring charges was the problem - it's so badly drafted and so broadly drawn as to be impossible to implement. That's why Scooter got nailed for lying, not for anything under that law, which, by the way, was drafted by Joe DiGenova's wife, Victoria Tsoensing, both of them rabid Republicans.

Whoever put that story up was whistling past the graveyard and trying to get people to look away from the main, very simple, issues. It is a bad, bad law, and I daresay no one will ever be successfully prosecuted under it.

Thank you for clarifying. Your comments confused me, but now I see that you were told some off-stories.

[Cronopio]

21. No real solidarity between mercenaries, it seems.

And ain't that just tragic.

"What did you expect? I'm a snake."

[bluestateguy]

31. What if a prosecutor immunized him?

Just wondering

[Missy Vixen]

36. I'm afraid I don't understand

Immunized him against what? I'm guessing you're speaking of Libby.

Here's the thing. They commuted his sentence to shut him up. It was the furthest Bush is willing to go. We're not talking about Libby re-implicating himself. We're talking about the fact that if he received a pardon tomorrow, he is free to talk till he's blue in the face, and he will send Bush and Cheney to prison. He can't take the Fifth after a pardon, either, because in his case, no crime was committed. That's at least my understanding.

Seriously. If all of you want the best explanation, please look up Christy Hardin Smith at www.firedoglake.com. She (and the other front pagers at FDL,) were quoted by mainstream media as the "experts" on Scooter Libby's case.

Julie

[rosesaylavee]

41. What would happen to this house of cards if Obama pardoned him?

[Missy Vixen]

43. Good question

I wonder if Obama would.

Julie

[rosesaylavee]

45. Woulnd't it be a hoot if he did that Wednesday?

Maybe I will suggest that on his website. :P

[pnwmom]

58. Why isn't he able to testify now anyway? His sentence has already been

commuted.

[beac]

82. No "double jeopardy" for THAT crime, but I am 100% sure that it wasn't the only felonious action

Libby was involved in during his time in the White House. Libby is probably content to slither into the dark corner of some GOP corporation where he can draw a nice fat salary for the job of keeping his mouth shut.

And I don't think a pardon would have compelled him to testify anyway. And he certainly wouldn't do so voluntarily, unless he has a death wish.

[Caretha]

66. You are so right

I wonder how it feels being Bush's & Cheney's sacrifical lamb. Somehow my heart really doesn't feel for him or his "Aspens".

[monmouth]

3. Goes to show ya, go to the mat for them, they don't need you any longer and

there's nothing left you can do for them....FU pal, under the bus with you. Libby was treated poorly..No thanks for taking one for the team, just forgotten. I think there's a back story here and people much smarter than I will uncover it down the road. Wish ole Scooter would write a book, pay off those legal bills and fill us all in.

[AndyA]

13. Yep, like a used condom. So important at one time, but once used, worthless.

Just ask Katherine Harris for details.

[tavalon]

80. Yep, she was definitely a well used condom

[MannyGoldstein]

4. "you should not expect any more" pardons and commutations

If this is true, it means that Dim Son is not pardoning the torture crew. That would be amazing.

[bluesmail]

28. The question becomes: WHY?

Most DUers have read that * made a deal. If true, will we ever know what the specifics are? On Edit Remember Seymour Hersh saying after the 20th, people who know things said to him, Call me after the 20th. My adrenalin is racing.

[Missy Vixen]

37. Let's see if Congress suddenly grows a set and goes after the torture crew

He's not pardoning because a) he just doesn't give a shit, and b) he probably thinks he's already worked this out behind the scenes, if you know what I mean.

Julie

[NRaleighLiberal]

6. So the man is pres for 8 years, and the single thing he does right is the last one?!

[WriteDown]

8. No...

The one thing he could've done to greatly redeem himself was pardon Leonard Peltier. Doesn't look like that is ever going to happen though.

[acmavm]

33. Or this case. It was a very strange time here back then, and I watched

a BBC documentary that also came to the conclusion that these two were/are innocent:

http://www.sfbayview.com/2008/cointelpro-plot-against-%e2%80%98omaha-2%e2%80%99-included-a-cadre-of-top-fbi-officials/print/


COINTELPRO plot against ‘Omaha 2’ included a cadre of top FBI officials

Posted By mary On December 10, 2008 @ 9:52 pm In Prison Stories | No Comments

by Michael Richardson





Ed Poindexter In Omaha, Nebraska, the leaders of a Black Panther group, Ed Poindexter and Mondo we Langa (formerly David Rice), were the targets of a clandestine operation of the Federal Bureau of Investigation code-named COINTELPRO. J. Edgar Hoover, then FBI director, had ordered the massive but secret operation against the Panthers and other domestic political organizations and individuals. Hoover’s goal was to “disrupt” the Black Panthers out of existence by targeting its leadership for elimination, prosecution and a host of dirty tricks.

The Aug. 17, 1970, bombing murder of Omaha policeman Larry Minard provided Hoover and his operatives with the opportunity to put the “Omaha 2″ behind bars by charging them with the crime. Officer Minard had been lured to a vacant house by an anonymous phone call about a woman screaming; however, a tape recording of the killer’s voice on the emergency call system was an obstacle to the prosecution of the two Panther leaders.

A month after FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover ordered the lab report withheld (above), he wrote in another extremely candid memo: “Purpose of counterintelligence action is to disrupt BPP and it is immaterial whether facts exist to substantiate the charge.”A plan was quickly hatched in Omaha to send the tape recording to the FBI Crime Laboratory for vocal analysis. But even before Minard’s mangled body was buried, J. Edgar Hoover had issued an order to the crime lab director, Ivan Willard Conrad, to withhold a formal lab report on the tape. Conrad spoke to Hoover on the phone on Aug. 19 about the unusual order to derail the investigation, noting on his copy of the COINTELPRO memorandum that Hoover said it was “OK to do.”

-MORE-

It's been far too long. The same for Peltier.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

62. I was one of David Rice's lawyers

We got in after the trial, which was a travesty. Took it all the way up to the Supreme Court, where we lost. Wolf v. Rice is still controlling Fourth Amendment law, unfortunately. Rehnquist's legacy, David's life.

They were set up.

It's one of the great sadnesses of my life that we couldn't get David and Ed released. I will never get over it, but they had a lot of good people working on their own time and at their own expense did everything they could, but the FBI buried Duane Peake so well, he was gone forever.

Daniel Berrigan got me into this case. Now, Daniel is beyond understanding, so it's probably best that he no longer knows that David was never set free, that justice was not served.

[acmavm]

64. Oh my, I am impressed. And I agree, those two guys were more than

convenient patsies for a policeman's murder. They also shut down the black panther movement big time anywhere near here, and it ignited a huge racial backlash against black people in general.

No way those two guys deserved what happened to them. I wish that I could remember where I saw that British documentary, I want to say PBS but I don't remember for sure.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

65. Don't be impressed.

We failed.

[acmavm]

68. You tried. Believe me, those guys were fucked from the get-go. You are

obviously familiar with the way the Midwestern newspapers reported this. My goodness, the only thing that all us good white folk needed to understand was that these BLACK PANTHERS had moved in, taken over, and every white person's life was in danger. I mean, look what these savages did to an innocent (AND HE WAS AND INNOCENT VICTIM) policeman who was just trying to do his duty. If the blacks were so bold as to kill a policeman, why no one was safe. And for the Panters to be involved, that was really some serious shit! They had to be swept up and locked up before we were all raped and murdered in our sleep.

Nah, there was no way that mess was going to turn out any other way than it did. Being as young as I was, I believed all the bullshit and hype. I thought they were guilty. But during the 70s that case was discussed a lot amongst 'kids' (hippies) in this area. And the word started to get out about what happened to Rice and Poindexter, how they were framed. Lots and lots of people know that they were. At least, people who were in the 'underground' community as they called it (if you can picture an 'underground' community here in the sticks).

[Tangerine LaBamba]

69. Yeah, the Black Panthers

were putting everyone at risk with that free breakfast program, weren't they?

I have to believe we've come some distance from those times, but, deep in my heart, I have to struggle to convince myself.

Thanks for the background. It's good to know that the kids were hip to what was going on, even through all the white-owned newspapers did everything they could to contaminate the scene.

When we were fighting it out in Lincoln and Omaha, we were housed - for free - with black families. I no longer remember the names, but I do remember the kindnesses that these strangers bestowed upon us, and we were a strange bunch - a young woman fresh out of law school, a Jesuit lawyer whose dedication to David's case eventually killed him, long-haired white males who weren't willing to let a black man be railroaded - but they just took us in and kept us safe.

We were not, as you might imagine, terribly popular in Douglas County.

It was a summer of a grasshopper infestation. I remember coming out a bar in downtown Omaha and seeing the building walls covered by the 'hoppers. Hot. And the FBI was dogging our every move.

Yes, we did what we could. We were never going to win, but we tried.

Thank you, too, for remembering..................

[acmavm]

70. I wish there was more that could have been done. Ah well. Such strange

times.

Nice talkin' to ya. Haven't really given this any real thought for a number of years now. Which is NOT good. That's why people like R & P languished in prison for their entire adult lives, we forget. And then it happens again.

Oh well. Nice 'talking' to ya. Have an absolutely fantastic tomorrow.

HAD to add this. I have a copy of the 'Omaha Hippie Survival Manual' Spring 1972. Cost was 50 cents.

Here's what they have to say on page 28. Just a paragraph:

"Informed sources have told us that Dave Rice and Ed Poindexter will be free soon. This will be a result of a brief filed recently about the conduct of the prosecuting attorney and evidence used in their trial."

Jeeze, we were STUPID!!!!!!!11

[dixiegrrrrl]

81. Thank you for what you did.

I was covering the travesty of the Angela Davis trial in Marin county, for a small news station, and seeing how that mockery was carried out radicalized me.
A lot of people my age then ( 20's) were more than aware what the FBI was really doing.

[richardsonreports]

86. 'Omaha Two'

I've been researching the case of Ed Poindexter and Mondo we Langa and am very interested in discussing Wolf v. Rice with Targerine LaBamba

Michael Richardson
[e-mail]

[Peace Patriot]

87. What do you mean "Daniel Berrigan" is "beyond understanding"? Is he ill? nt

[MineralMan]

9. Wow! If this story is correct and Bush issues no further

pardons, there are going to be a helluva lot of neocons screeching at the tops of their lungs. Could * actually have gotten something right at the very end?

This could open the door for prosecutions at several high levels.

I wonder if there's been some kind of gentlemen's agreement on this thing...

[Missy Vixen]

10. I'm going to crawl out on a limb here

The only further pardons we'll hear about are Bush and Cheney, and we may not hear about those. I believe that Cheney pardoned Bush during one of Bush's "procedures" over the past couple of years. I also wonder if a pardon can be fashioned via executive order. If it's possible, Bush will pardon Cheney late tonight and it will not be announced in the media for several days.

They're letting all their buddies swing.

This should be interesting.

Julie

[MineralMan]

12. Actually, I think it's more likely that

Cheney and Bush have an understanding with the new administration that they, themselves, will not be prosecuted, in exchange for not pardoning the other players. I can see how that might happen. Prosecuting a former President and VP would not settle well with the public, I think...but the lesser players don't matter so much to the voters.

If that agreement was reached and Bush skips the blanket pardons for his henchmen, then I think we may see some vigorous prosecutions at levels just under the President and Vice-President.

I certainly could be wrong, but that's how I'm reading it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

18. Shades of Nixon/Ford..........

The final bit of leverage that Nixon extracted from the people trying to get him out of office was to hold the Presidency hostage to his successor granting him a pardon under the rubric of the brand-new concept of "unindicted co-conspirator." He got his deal, resigned the Presidency, Ford bleated that "our long national nightmare was over," and Nixon got away scot-free from what he and his henchmen - all of whom did time - had tried to do to our Constitution.

It's been my belief all along that this sort of deal would be worked between this miserable being whose name I cannot even bring myself to write here and the incoming administration. Lord only knows what sorts of beyond-the-law crap he might have dished out under the absolute power of pardon granted the President in Article II of the Constitution.

We'll see a lot of indictments coming down in the very near future, I think, thanks to the deal Jack Abramoff worked with prosecutors. He's already in the slammer, but his sentence remains conditional on his cooperation, and I've heard that his singing is going to bring down Republicans in numbers that really haven't ever been seen in this town.

At the very least, it's going to be interesting.

[AZ Criminal JD]

49. No one will be prosecuted at any level.

[MineralMan]

59. Actually, I think you're wrong,

but I'm certain that Bush and Cheney will not be prosecuted...at least in this country, and I doubt they would be extradited to any other jurisdiction.

Sorry about my cynicism, but deals like that are how it all works, from the local court to the highest.

Personally, I think it would be a mistake, always, to prosecute a former President or Vice-President. I doubt it will ever be done.

However, there are plenty of other targets out there. I'd sure like to see them nailed.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. "... Cheney pardoned Bush..."?

Now you've really got me curious.

Are you a lawyer or a Constitutional scholar?

Pardons are done by Presidents, not Vice Presidents and traditionally, they're announced right at the end of the outgoing President's term. Remember Clinton and Marc Rich? A lot can happen in the next eighteen hours.

As for your wondering about pardons and executive orders, you're mixing up apples and wheelbarrows. One has nothing to do with the other.

Check the Constitution re: power to pardon.

But, I do want to know more about the things you've asserted here. Thank you.

[cascadiance]

24. I think he's referring to those brief times when Bush was under anesthesia for medical treatment...

... when temporarily Cheney was provided presidential powers. Not sure that would entail that he has pardoning power then, but it would seem that one point of legal contention would be that it needed to be announced at the time that Cheney gave the pardon instead of claiming retroactively that this pardon happened in secret during those times. But then again, we have a lot of right wing court judges now out there, and who knows what they might be being paid to do to serve these fascists...

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. Wow!

That's a creative interpretation of the 25th Amendment, but it's theoretically possible.

Whoever came up with this one should have been writing for "The West Wing."

Or "The Twilight Zone."

About secret pardons, I don't know. If a pardon was issued, say, three years ago, and then subsequent criminal acts were found to have been committed by that person already pardoned, that would, I'd argue, render those subsequent acts not covered by any pardon, so that would dilute whatever power the pardon might have had.

Interesting theory, though.

[Old Codger]

67. How about

* pardons darth, then resigns and darth pardons him LOL... be about what I would expect out of them but probably too late for that.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

74. Listen.........

I'm holding my breath between now and 12:01 pm tomorrow. Even after that, while the festivities are taking place, I'm still scared about what might happen - only not from the Oval Office.

Theoretically, sure, that could happen, but I suspect there might be some trouble rounding up the Chief Justice to administer the oath of office to Darth, and, besides, I just learned that he's in a wheelchair because he "injured his back while moving boxes," so it's questionable that he's sober. Those painkillers, you know, can be really rough.

Anything is possible, but I'd just like to exhale......................

[Missy Vixen]

38. Tangerine, it's good to hear from you!

No, I'm not a lawyer or a Constitutional scholar. I'm a huge FDL junkie. ;-) (www.firedoglake.com)

Here's the thing. Bush has been incapacitated by general anesthesia at least twice: A colonoscopy and (I believe,) surgery to remove a skin cancer. While he was out, Cheney was president. Cheney would also have had the powers of the office, including the power to pardon, wouldn't he?

He could do an awful lot in twenty minutes, couldn't he? He could do a lot in several hours, too. Is it possible to make a pardon by executive order and bypass the typical procedure?

You're right, a lot can happen in the next eighteen hours. If they're already floating the "no additional pardons" thing, I'm wondering why. I'm also thinking that either Cheney is much more ill than we've been led to believe, therefore he won't be needing a pardon, or it's being done twenty minutes before Bush is no longer President.

Of course, IMHO. Maybe I need to fix my tinfoil hat. Then again, I put nothing past these folks.

What do you all think?
Julie

[Tangerine LaBamba]

46. It would have had to have been set up

long before Chimpy went under the anesthesia. And pardons are complicated things. Very complicated things, taking months to work out.

I put nothing past Cheney, but even by my own lax standards, this idea fails. But, if it were made public, I can't even begin to imagine the blowback.

They're capable of anything, but I think the deal proposed by another poster in this thread, that a bargain was struck between administrations in order to allow the thugs to get out unscathed, seems most realistic to me.

Julie, always nice to run into you. You're consistently smart and interesting.

Thank you.

:toast:

[Thothmes]

77. Doesn't take that long

a couple of million to the right foundation, the future attorney general rubberstamps it and the President signs it. Hardly a complicated process.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

78. Well, no.........

There are procedures that would have to be followed. Your scenario is a good outline, but hardly inclusive.

We're talking, really, something out of "24," and that reminds me - when will that foul show go off the air?

[BadgerKid]

48. Assumptions that *co would be traditional

is what got us all into the disaster of the last eight years. Basically, everything is legal until it's challenged and ruled illegal. I migth even say it's the GOP play book.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

75. There's a certain reality that has to be faced.....

Your assumption that "everything is legal until it's challenged" certainly does seem to be how these treasonous bastards have operated, but I think those days are over.

I'm far too old and experienced to be optimistic, but I am hopeful.

[nichomachus]

26. I think it's the "Kindergarten Principle"

Did you bring enough for everybody?

There's no way he could pardon everyone who is a potential defendant due to the Bush Crime Family war crimes and other atrocities.

So, he would either have to issue 1,500 pardons -- which just wouldn't cut it -- or none at all. But, once you start, where do you stop? It's better to just issue none than to have a lot of very pissed off people who are furious because the guy in the next office got one and they didn't. That would be even worse -- you would have whistleblowers all over town.

And then, there's the fact that once the Bush Crime Family no longer has any need for you, you are dead to them. They are loyal to no one outside the family.

[mulsh]

11. I've posted a couple of times I thought there'd be "no pardons"

looks like I may even be correct. I doubt * has enough empathy to come to a conclusion about pardons for any of his staff and besides * doesn't think they did anything wrong or illegal n shit. I hope he gets all he deserved at Potemkin Acres down in Crawford.

[MilesColtrane]

16. Bush already gave him a get out of jail free card...

...by commuting his two and half year sentence.

I think Bush wants it to look like there was no quid pro quo for Libby's lies.

As much as he talks about not being worried about history, he's sure going out of his way to try and polish the stinking heap that is his legacy.

[dodger501]

17. Now Libby goes through life with a permanent handle:

Convicted Felon Scooter Libby

[Optical.Catalyst]

23. He will still live out his days as a rich man. n/t

[Baby Snooks]

32. Life goes on....

As Leona Helmsley discovered, being a felon doesn't make you less rich and rich is all that counts. And she was innocent. Libby may not be as rich as she was, but he's rich. So he doesn't care.

History will always record the trials and tribulations. The pardon doesn't affect history.

What might affect history is the impression this leaves that Bush respects the rule of law. I suspect history will point out the ruse.

[Pryderi]

20. hmmm....I wonder if there'll be a backlash against Bush and people spill their guts. n/t

[cascadiance]

22. People who "take a knife in the heart" for CRIMINALS don't deserve any sympathy!

Criminals off each other and do what's best for themselves. As someone else pointed out, it is likely that Bush doesn't want to set up "immunity" for others who might otherwise plead the 5th if asked to testify against him.

All of the bastards deserve no special treatment for their criminal acts. If you say they should, Ambassador Carlson, then you are likely as complicit in their crimes as they are!

[ejbr]

29. NOW he's leaving office with a shameful cloud over his head?!!

What the fuck planet is this joker living on?

[bluestateguy]

30. That's always been the Bush Family M.O.

Demand absolute loyalty from subordinates, but don't reciprocate.

Katherine Harris comes to mind as an example of someone who the Bush Boys hung out to dry when she was no longer useful.

[zyguh]

35. Someone above said the thing about pleading the 5th....

I think the reason for not pardoning some of these people has more to do with Bush wanting to make sure he cant be prosecuted.

If Libby gets pardoned, then Libby cant legally incriminate himself in court. That means that Libby cant plead the 5th if placed on the stand.....you cant incriminate yourself for something you have been pardoned for. So you cant plead the 5th when you cant incriminate yourself. Which means a judge can order Libby to answer the questions or be in contempt of court.

Libby could then be jailed, and held in jail until he tells the truth and answers all the questions asked in court. So if Libby is pardoned, then Libby can be forced to answer questions in court about what Bush knew and when. If Libby isnt pardoned, he can plead the 5th and cant be compelled to answer those questions.

I think thats going to be true for A LOT of folks. Issue a blanket pardon for people from the CIA who were involved in torture, and you set up a situation where they cant refuse to talk in court, so the only way they go to jail is if they sit in court and refuse to tell the truth.

You pardon them, and your almost guaranteeing that someone will point the finger right at Bush in court. If you dont pardon them, they HAVE to plead the 5th to protect themselves, and that means they dont say "the orders came from President Bush".

I think NOT pardoning people is the only way to make sure they dont talk in court. You make them plead the 5th instead, and the jusdge cant hold them in contempt for doing so if there is no pardon or immunity in place.

I think that Bush is so corrupt, and his admin so fucked up, that the best way to protect himself is making sure all his fellow criminals can be prosecuted if they talk. You rat me out, and your going down too kind of thing.

Of course there is still 17 hours, 35 minutes and 54 seconds to go, so we will see.

[Libertyfirst]

39. I find you analysis extremely interesting and probably correct. n/t

[Missy Vixen]

42. Zyguh, thank you for the terrific explanation re: Libby

and the Fifth.

I'm wondering what the trial balloons in the Wall Street Journal and Forbes re: Libby's pardon meant over the past few days.

Julie

[yodermon]

63. Libby was convicted for, and thus can only be pardoned for, perjury and OoJ.

He could still plead the 5th for testimony about violations of Espionage Act or IIPA (the 2 actual nat'l security statutes at issue in the Plame case).

Now technically, yes, shrub could pre-emptively pardon Scooter for violations of those laws, but then he could be forced to testify with impunity.

[happygoluckytoyou]

40. WHATCHYOU MEAN I CAN'T SAVE PARDONS LIKE ROLLOVER MINUTES? I NEED ONE IN 2010 ! ! ! !

[Gin]

47. W is still president until noon tomorrow...he could still issue more pardons

[superconnected]

50. Spite. Remember how GW came in, he was telling his own base they would be punnished

if he got it and now Al gore, for not believing in him. specifically he said there'd be a lot of jobs to hand out and they wouldn't get them.

[spotbird]

51. Breaking: No Libby Pardon (No Bush pardons at all?)

Source: NRO

White House officials have just told me that there will be no more pardons coming out of the Bush White House

Read more: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OGJmMmVjOTA4ZWMzMzg5M2QzYzcxMjk5NzY1ZDE5Nzg=

---

They're pretty sure that there won't be any prosecutions.

[Taverner]

52. Pelosi made sure of it n/t

[Horse with no Name]

53. Perhaps that was a backroom deal?

They wouldn't prosecute Bush if he left everyone else for fair game?
Interesting concept...

[spotbird]

54. Cheney would never agree to it. nt

[L. Coyote]

56. Apparently, there are no more back room deals. Change is here!

This, however, does not mean there are no laws to enforce!!

I can't wait for Justice to return to the USA!

[bhikkhu]

55. "Bush pardons convicted border guards"

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0119/breaking77.htm

[AZ Criminal JD]

57. He didn't pardon them

He commuted their sentences.

[bhikkhu]

60. Thanks for the correction

I was just looking at the bone-headed newspaper headline, which itself is contradicted by the first sentence in the article!

[PM Martin]

61. A grown man named "Scooter"

:rofl:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

79. I know.........

Who wouldn't want to be a five-foot tall man known as Irving Libby?

Beats me......

[beac]

83. Yes, all the short men I know LOVE to go by the nickname they got as a TODDLER.

It really makes them seem tall and manly.

There is NO excuse for a grown man calling himself "Scooter." None.

[UpInArms]

71. a neo-conservative think tank - an oxymoron if I ever heard one

those things are just roach breeders

[awoke_in_2003]

72. "I'm flabbergasted," said one influential Republican activist...

"I thought the law didn't apply to us"

[BlooInBloo]

73. Pardon = no 5th Amendment protection.

[47of74]

84. That's probably why

[spotbird]

85. The government can grant immunity

to compel testimony, so that shouldn't have been an issue.

Pardon=difficulty in cashing in and instigation of international war crimes investigations.

[UTUSN]

76. Bwa-ha-HAH!1 I, too, am flabergasted and shocked!1 Shoots 'self in the wingnut FOOT!1

So the wheel turns and turns and Ann RICHARDS "silver foot in the mouth" (about Poppy) LIVES ON!1

[superconnected]

88. Dear Scooter, Republicans always eat their own. Pick better people

to support next time. And remember, there is no honor among thieves.

[Mudoria]

89. I give the ex-President credit for one thing..

he didn't issue a flood of pardons on his way out.

[Peace Patriot]

90. My theory is that, starting circa Katrina, behind the scenes in the WH, there was a

bloodbath between the Bush/Rove gang and the Cheney/Libby gang (immediate issue--the Fitzgerald investigation). Daddy Bush got involved. Cheney/Libby lost. Rove got away. But it took about a year, to circa 2006 elections, to play out. At that point, we (as a country) were looking at an outright putsch by Cheney/Rumsfeld--nuking of Iran, martial law here, suspension of 2008 elections. Then some white hat/gray hat group of insiders (military, intel, congressional/corporate leaders) went to Bush/Cheney, said 'we've got the goods on you, back down,' and made a deal: no impeachment, if you don't nuke Iran, and go peacefully when the time comes--and get rid of Rumsfeld. Bush/Cheney agreed. Pelosi announces "Impeachment is off the table" apropos of nothing (I mean, WHAT "table"?), just after the Democrats take over Congress, and Rumsfeld resigns with no change of policy in Iraq--in fact, the Dem Congress escalates the war. Pelosi then goes off to the Middle East to take the word--no nuking of Iran (--and Iran returns the British sailors unharmed---that possibly having been the "Gulf of Tonkin" incident set up to trigger the attack on Iran).

Daddy Bush's role was to rescue Bush Jr from Cheney/Rumsfeld. The Iraq Study Group and all that. (Sidelight: The new CIA director--parlayed as a civilian--Panetta--was a member of the ISG. He is no civilian, in my opinion.) Rumsfeld's war has been a disaster, and they were heading right into another, worse disaster--much worse (with nuke powers Russia and China backing Iran). They had to be stopped from doing that, because it would have been bad for business to irradiate the Middle East. And our corporate rulers don't want--or didn't want, at that time--civil disorder here. (They may be planning it, to keep Obama in line--but that's another story. I think Obama understands the limits that have been placed on him, as to any real reform, and agreed to them, in order not to be Diebolded.)

Anyway, I think that's when the deal was made (circa '06), and what it was about--no impeachment for no putsch/armageddon. Bush and Cheney have been immunized. The Democrats can score some P.R. points with the rest of them, who will all take the 5th. The worm in this deal is that Obama may have been set up for failure, and our country set up for return of the fascist wing of the our national political establishment in 2012, with all tyrannical presidential powers still in place, and the country in meltdown (shades of Germany, early 1930s).