Indian H-1B visa techies in US may lose jobs in Microsoft

[OhioChick]

Source: Economic Times India

26 Jan 2009, 2113 hrs IST, PTI

WASHINGTON: Indian IT professionals working for Microsoft Corp in the US could be among those who lose jobs after it announced plans to sack 5,000 Coming to terms with lay-off employees with the software giant indicating some of the affected would likely be non-Americans amid calls to first target foreigners working on H-1B visas.

The world's biggest software company has been asked by an influential Republican Senator from Iowa Chuck Grassley to first fire foreign workers hired on H-1B visas, a majority of whom are Indians, while implementing the layoff plan and "protect" the jobs of Americans.

An indication that foreigners who also include Indians could be targetted during the layoffs came when a Microsoft spokesperson in a statement said, "We care about all our employees, so we are providing services and support to try to help every affected worker, whether they are US workers or foreign nationals working in this country on a visa."

The company has been in the forefront for expanding the H-1B visa programme, a temporary visa programme that lets American companies and universities hire thousands of foreign workers in a category considered by the government requiring specialised skills.

Dashing off a letter to the company after it recentlly announced its intention to slash the workforce by 5,000 in the next 18 months, Grassley voiced concern that this would result in American workers losing jobs and not the foreigners hired on H-1B or L visas.

"During a layoff, companies should not be retaining H-1B or other work visa programme employees over qualified American workers," Grassley said in the letter to Microsoft Chief Executive Steve Ballmer.



Read more: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Indian_H-1B_visa_techies_in_US_may_lose_jobs_in_MS/articleshow/4033788.cms

[aquart]

1. Damn straight.

[yourout]

3. +2 - Wow....I agree with a Republican. How did that happen?

[BootinUp]

7. Grassley has also been investigating medical ties to

pharmaceutical companies, and exposing conflicts of interest which I am glad to see him do.

[acmavm]

12. I'll take Grassley over Vilsack any day.

Unfortunately Vilsack is our new Sec of Ag

[JaneFordA]

38. I'm not clear about this "status"

... since H-1 is the first legal step a foreigner has to check off before he/she goes on to the next step. I think H-1b is TEMPORARY job status ONLY--and as such, employers can skirt a lot of labor laws already on the books and demand some mighty strange things. I think there was a company in Texas five or ten years ago that ended up with a BIG FAT omelette on the execs' faces because these "temps" were working 12 - 14 hour days SEVEN DAYS A WEEK. Stuff like that.

In short, this particular slot in the old immigration maze provides highly skilled obedient workers who aren't likely to rock any boats.

Nevertheless, at the end of the assignment, the law dictates they return to country of origin.

Even when an employer is willing to dot the i's and cross the t's for a foreigner's labor clearance, the law is specific: a foreigner cannot be legally employed in a job if there's an American citizen willing and/or able to take it. No ifs, ands or buts on that one.

Then and only then can the loooong and painstaking process toward a green card application be started.

Each year, only 20,000 applicants from designated countries get green cards. For some countries, this happens fast: for example, if an immigrant is from the United Kingdom or Germany, that queue is going to move at light speed: how many people from western Europe want to be permanent residents here? Especially when it comes to the differences in their health care system and ours?

For Indians and Chinese, the queue is almost ridiculously long: a plain old H-1 is good for three years. An applicant can renew for three more. And if s/he is lucky, the line will have moved forward enough that the old green card just might be in hand at the end of THAT time.

Then comes the waiting for citizenship: five years from the time of green card receipt if the immigrant applies on the basis of employment; three years if applying on the basis of being married to a US citizen.

While I want the system to make sure qualified American citizens take precedence in all matters of employment, I can't help but be greatly relieved there was no such thing as the INS when my ancestors ended up over here.

[merwin]

61. If there's a choice between laying off a US citizen and someone with an H-1 visa,

The US citizen should be the one to stay employed.

[Deja Q]

2. A Republican of influence made the request to Microsoft?

Cool.

(it's not about party lines; there are plenty of genuine Republicans out there and it's nice to know some of them are in positions of power and influence.)

Especially with the US appearing to be the keystone in the GLOBAL economy, a little protectionism right now is not an evil thing.

[dflprincess]

4. "could be among those who..?"

:wtf: does that mean.

The H-1B workers should be laid off before a single American worker is.

[OhioChick]

5. Yes, they should. n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

20. It does not sound ethical but...

I am sure Americans would be fired overseas without hesitation to preserve jobs for locals.

[World Traveller]

49. Bingo- Americans would be fired in foreign countries to preserve jobs for locals

VERY FEW countries have these easy labor laws that allow foreign personnel to be hired and replace the local citizens.

I worked in IT for 35 years, at the same major corporation for 30 years. When I began in 1978, everyone in IT was an American citizen.

By the time I left in 2007, over 60% were foreign-born, on H1B visas, L1 visas, or resident visas who had started out on H1B visas.

And this was not an IT company, it was simply a major U.S. multinational corporation looking to save money by replacing U.S. citizens with lower wage personnel.

Enrollment is way down in Computer Science departments at U.S. universities because the job prospects are so poor for U.S. citizens. U.S. companies have been able to import the labor that they need, no matter the effect on the tax-paying citizens (who now have to rescue U.S. banks, despite their own personal deteriorating balance sheets).

[ihavenobias]

6. To the greatest for that last sentence alone. n/t

[dkofos]

They (H-1B's) better be on the layoff list.

[TheHeathen]

8. Ballmer's e-mail to employees regarding layoffs

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10147964-75.html

In response to the realities of a deteriorating economy, we're taking important steps to realign Microsoft's business. I want to tell you about what we're doing and why.

Today we announced second quarter revenue of $16.6 billion. This number is an increase of just 2 percent compared with the second quarter of last year and it is approximately $900 million below our earlier expectations.

The fact that we are growing at all during the worst recession in two generations reflects our strong business fundamentals and is a testament to your hard work. Our products provide great value to our customers. Our financial position is solid. We have made long-term investments that continue to pay off.

But it is also clear that we are not immune to the effects of the economy. Consumers and businesses have reined in spending, which is affecting PC shipments and IT expenditures.

[Deja Q]

9. And their bugs make the rest of us work harder.

And lose interest in their future products.

Their hard work won't pay off much longer if their support and QC remain so pitifully low despite being a pitifully large company.

[LSK]

39. wait a sec!! they are GROWING but still have to layoff people??????????

:wtf:

[williesgirl]

10. With the US in recession/depression, ALL H-1B visas should be revoked immediately. Let them say no

American workers want these jobs. Bullshit. Send all of them home and bring our jobs back to the US from overseas. rec'd

[sharp_stick]

37. That's probably pretty damned illegal

not to mention plain old shortsighted and not that bright. Not every H1 is taking an American job and not every H1 is in IT.

I work with a lot of H1 holders, it's Pharmaceuticals not tech but we really do need these people. I had a job open for 4 months and the only person with the right fit was a Canadian. No way in hell would I send her back to hire someone with no experience.

Mind you,these are pretty specialized scientists and it tends to be a pretty open field. Most of the folks I work with could go anywhere in the world and be in demand.

I think my favorite fix would be to take the techies out of the H1 fold all together. I always thought that program was to bring people to the US that were needed here. A lot of companies are using them to bring in dime a dozen IT positions just so they can ship them back and save money by making them work in their home country. This is kind of falling apart now that our dollar is in the shitter with the rest of the third world.

[Deja Q]

40. "Want"? Or "Need"?

A hooker is a want.

A domicile is a need.

A collectible Elmo doll is a want.

A piece of food is a need.

A condom is a want.

A computer with training materials is... well, it should certainly be a need as employers demand computer skills and will disqualify even people who prefer to use paper stationery over a blackberry or PDA.

[antigop]

11. interesting...but I'll believe it when I see it. It doesn't say they WILL BE cut before US workers.

It just says "could be among those who lose jobs".

Still, at least it's making it into the news.

<edit to add> I COULD BE AMONG lottery winners this week.

[OhioChick]

13. Same here.

"May" doesn't mean definitely.

[Azlady]

14. If a Company lets an H1-B go from their job..

they are required by law to pay for the moving of that H1B home to their country.... it will be interesting to see if they actually do this... It would be one thing to pay for the airfare home, that wouldn't stop them, but to pay for all of their belongings being shipped home... might cause them to give 2nd thought about the h1b's

[ecstatic]

32. Yep. I'm sure they will find a work around

Just like the workarounds they found to justify all the increased visas.

[davidwparker]

15. You would think they'd be the first to go.

[Diane R]

16. I often stay at a hotel near Microsoft headquarters.

I stay at one of the most popular hotels near Microsoft headquarters in Redmond, Washington. I've stayed there for several days each year for a number of years.

There is a free breakfast in a cafeteria each morning, so I've had a chance to see a lot of the guests. I can safely say that a full three quarters of the guests each morning are clearly from India. This hotel is affordable for long term stays, and it appears that many of the guests live there for weeks when they first arrive.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of Microsoft workers are H-1B status.

[Azlady]

19. I was trying to find the data on # of H1'b workers here...

The stats show 126,220 for 2007, which includes new & renewal H1-bs....I'm sorry but that number seems way, way low....


I read an article a couple of weeks ago that stated that visa workers typically send half their salary home to their home country.... So I figured out, at the 126,220... say average salary of $50,000.. divide that in half $25,000 each H1b worker sends out of the country each year... total US Dollars leaving the country each year.... $3,155,500,000.00......

Now that is just with the H1b holders (which that number is WAY to low)... there are other visa workers here as well...
who knows what the actual US Dollar amounts leaving this country are.... geez.... another reason our economy is in the toilet...

[Starbucks Anarchist]

41. Why do you care where they send their money?

Many other immigrants (non-H-1Bs) send money home, too.

[Azlady]

42. ummm... It's not helping out the U.S. economy......

[Starbucks Anarchist]

43. So?

It's their money, and they can do what they want with it. They're taking care of their relatives who don't live here, which isn't hurting anybody.

By your logic, anybody who doesn't spend a disproportionate amount of their income on anything within the U.S. is guilty, too.

[ChromeFoundry]

44. and if they get sent home...

They're taking care of their relatives who don't live here, which isn't hurting anybody.

Then in terms of your logic... sending them home, and helping one of my relatives remain working, isn't hurt anyone either.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

45. I wasn't arguing the pros and cons of the H-1B program.

I was arguing the sentiment against what people do with their own money.

But if you want to debate what you just wrote:

Then in terms of your logic... sending them home, and helping one of my relatives remain working, isn't hurt anyone either.

Then it's not a totally valid comparison unless your unemployed relative supports you financially when he/she is working.

[ChromeFoundry]

52. Way to dodge... n/t

[Starbucks Anarchist]

54. What dodge?

I responded to a subthread about remittances, not about the H-1B program itself. You're the one who wanted to take it in another direction entirely.

[OhioChick]

56. I think what both posters were trying to get across

is the fact that immigration/visas are "supposed" to help the U.S. economy, but it's proven that it has not. :shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

58. Yes, but the normal argument is that the H-1Bs undercut wages.

That is a very valid point, but arguing about what the H-1Bs do with their own money seems beside the point.

Ironically, if they did spend all their money here, much of it would go towards consuming Chinese-made junk, so I fail to see the anger about remittances, though I do understand the anger about undercutting wages via the program itself.

[Azlady]

63. Starbucks Anarchist - My post was not about anger to where money is/was spent

It was for information - if usa billions of dollars leaving the country it has an impact on the economy.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

64. But it's a drop in the bucket.

Offshore tax shelters take much more money out of the U.S. economy by comparison.

And H-1Bs wouldn't send money back home if their relatives immigrated here, but some people (*not* necessarily you personally) would object to that, too.

[OhioChick]

21. Wow....Speaks Volumes. n/t

[WatchWhatISay]

35. My son works for Microsoft

Even when he did two summer internships before being hired, they put him in apartments that they have agreements with, not hotels. But they did put him in a hotel when he went for interviews.

I know a lot of people here hate Microsoft, but they have always been very good to him. Most of the people he works with are left leaning. He is a big Obama fan - in fact he talked me into supporting Obama over John Edwards. Last week he told me he wanted to start doing volunteer work as a result of Obama's encouragement to do so.

He called last night and I asked him if he was worried that his job was in jeapordy. He doesnt think so because he said the group he works in wont be affected by the layoffs. But I worry for him because I dont think Microsoft would demoralize their employees by telling them beforehand that their project might be cancelled.

[deadmessengers]

36. It's like that in a lot of tech-heavy areas.

I spend one week each month working in my company's headquarters in a tech hub in the SF Bay area, and the hotel I stay in while there (also an extended-stay type place) is normally pretty much full of folks from the South Asian subcontinent.

[EnviroBat]

17. Wow, I'm speechless!

Something that actually makes SENSE in these fucking trying times! Far to many H1-B's here to begin with!

Send them home! Bye bye. So solly...

:hi:

[undeterred]

18. Good. Send them HOME.

[TahitiNut]

22. It's about damned fucking time!!

Silicon Valley and Microsoft have been abusing the H-1B visa for YEARS!

[Kittycat]

23. Not Good Enough.

There should be written laws preventing the termination of US Employees over H1Bs.

[gemdem]

25. Agreed.

Problem is as soon as there's a law, there will be a loophole. That's how we got this mess in the first place -- loopholes.

[AngryOldDem]

24. My heart bleeds.

Not.

[berni_mccoy]

26. If they only lay off the H1B's the number will jump to 10,000.

[butterfly77]

27. Good!

[blue97keet]

28. FOIA on H-1B

In view of Obama's new orders on transparency, why should'nt Grassley and preferably the Democrats in congress force Microsoft to air their dirty laundry on H-1B under Freedom of Information Act?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/01/_in_a_move_that.html?hpid=topnews


"In a move that pleased good government groups and some journalists, President Obama issued new orders today designed to improve the federal government's openness and transparency. The first memo instructs all agencies and departments to "adopt a presumption in favor" of Freedom of Information Act requests, while the second memo orders the director of the Office of Management and Budget to issue recommendations on making the federal government more transparent."

[valerief]

29. Hell will freeze over before foreign workers get fired over natives. nt

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

31. GOOD RIDDANCE

[AyanEva]

33. I agree with this completely.

[L0oniX]

34. \/\/()()T

[Anarcho-Socialist]

46. Er guys, people are losing their jobs

it's not something to be pleased about. So what if they're Indian, getting pleasure from this is incredibly mean spirited.

[Lucky Luciano]

47. Agreed...I like the idea of improving the quality of life of everyone

in the world. Everyone has a family they love and want to take care of.

[nini]

48. I think it's more of a 'it's time for justice for the American worker'

If we don't stand up as a nation to protect our jobs then who will?

[OhioChick]

50. Good Point. n/t

[Anarcho-Socialist]

53. They're not protecting US workers

they're being cut to protect corporate profits, and besides the gloating over Indians losing their jobs (not by you, but which occurred up-thread) isn't "justice for the American worker."

[OhioChick]

55. Would any other foreign country in our current economic shape...

Keep foreign workers when their own unemployment rate was so high?

I think not.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

57. I think you've missed the point of my message

100,000+ US citizens work in London at a time of a great recession in Britain. If they lose their jobs, I won't be gloating like what has occurred in this thread.

I am not arguing against giving US citizens priority in the US economy, it's the gloating over people losing their jobs which I find deeply offensive.

[OhioChick]

59. I think people are just disgusted/frustrated.....

However, it must be placed where it belongs....with corporations and our elected officials. I see and agree with your point.

What I find offensive are the posts which I see from time to time arguing that foreign workers should have precedence over U.S. workers.....in the U.S.

That's why I responded with the fact that citizens from other countries surely wouldn't want to lose their jobs over foreigners.

On edit to add: I think poster #49 hit the nail on the head.

[Desperadoe]

51. How many H1B visa holders are here?

""

[Lucky Luciano]

60. Love this picture...

First saw it captioned with the phrase:

"Would you have invested a few million bucks in these geeks?"

[GetTheRightVote]

62. They do not care about the US worker any more only profits

so Indians will go on working while citizens are dumped.
This nation has cancer.

The next question is what do we do about it ?

:kick:

[OhioChick]

65. Write your Senators and Congressman/woman.... n/t

[conspirator]

66. Nah. They'll probably go back to India and start an outsourcing company which

will receive contracts from microsoft. Same employees, different location, lower salaries.

[LeftHander]

67. XP programmers have completed the project...

Good job!

Way to sink another IT project!

[sledgehammer]

68. Just curious, if the article's headline was...

"Mexican illegal immigrants in US may lose jobs in Company XYZ"...

...what would the reaction be around here?

Would we hear things like:

"Good, send the leeches back to Mexico" (note: sub-thread was subsequently deleted)
"Good Riddance"
"Good. Send them HOME"
"It's about damned fucking time"
"My heart bleeds...Not"
etc.

My guess is we wouldn't, and hopefully I am not wrong about that.

BTW, I totally give Grassley two thumbs way up here. And I'm all for the Durbin-Grassley bill. But I just want to shed light on the level of vitriol toward a segment of society. It's easy to get caught up in it all, but it's a dangerous path (and, IMO, unbecoming of liberal minds).

The H-1 program (and other immigration programs) may totally suck - the feeling on this board is pretty clear. And arguing/criticizing the program leads to some great discussion.

But target the hate/blame where it needs to go - the companies who have abused the system ($$$) and govt (lack of oversight and commonsense regulation). Give a break to the H-1ers themselves. The vast majority came to this country legally, have followed all laws since being here, put their skills to good use, paid all their taxes, and most came to this great land in search of a better life.

That's as American a tradition as you can find, something which you and/or many of your ancestors probably did too.

[ChromeFoundry]

69. Dude, why do you continue to hijack Ohiochick's threads with that??

For Christ sakes, start your own damn thread. :eyes:

[sledgehammer]

70. ?

My post is related to the original post of this thread and to the comments made in this thread. So didn't think I needed to start another thread.

PS: Nothing to do with OhioChick at all. Thread could have been started by anyone. It just happens that most H-1 threads are started by her. I sincerely applaud her incredible efforts in keeping some amazing discussions going, and never wavering on the fight for the American worker.