Governments across Europe tremble as angry people take to the streets

[Bozita]

Source: Guardian UK

Governments across Europe tremble as angry people take to the streets
Ian Traynor, Europe editor
The Guardian, Saturday 31 January 2009
Article history


France paralysed by a wave of strike action, the boulevards of Paris resembling a debris-strewn battlefield. The Hungarian currency sinks to its lowest level ever against the euro, as the unemployment figure rises. Greek farmers block the road into Bulgaria in protest at low prices for their produce. New figures from the biggest bank in the Baltic show that the three post-Soviet states there face the biggest recessions in Europe.

It's a snapshot of a single day – yesterday – in a Europe sinking into the bleakest of times. But while the outlook may be dark in the big wealthy democracies of western Europe, it is in the young, poor, vulnerable states of central and eastern Europe that the trauma of crash, slump and meltdown looks graver.

Exactly 20 years ago, in serial revolutionary rejoicing, they ditched communism to put their faith in a capitalism now in crisis and by which they feel betrayed. The result has been the biggest protests across the former communist bloc since the days of people power.

Europe's time of troubles is gathering depth and scale. Governments are trembling. Revolt is in the air.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/31/global-recession-europe-protests

[Lorien]

1. As an American in Paris said in "Sicko"; "In Europe the government is afraid

of the people, in America the people are afraid of their government".

[Why Syzygy]

2. It will come. This gives me hope.

Just let one more CEO, or SENATOR, fer crap's sake, take a dump on the American Taxpayer...

They broke it, they bought it! Pay the Piper!

[girl gone mad]

17. If they keep giving all of our future earnings to the greedy bankers..

and CEOs, there will be a tax revolt.

[byeya]

31. Tax Revolt

I understand, and agree, with what you're saying, but the top 5% of earners have already been enjoying their "tax revolt" with off shore hidden accounts and relocating business headquarters, which are often just an unstaffed little office or postal box, for years. It's time for us to withhold from the government like occurred during the latter stages of the Viet Nam war.

[Jambalaya]

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[Jambalaya]

88. Past is Prologue-(BCCI Scandal was 20 years ago)

e BCCI Scandal - Sidebar - MSN Encarta According to Manhattan District Attorney Robert M. Morgenthau, the BCCI scandal that came to light in 1991 was 'the largest bank fraud in world history. ...
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‘Frauds-R-Us’The Bush Family Saga: BCCI (Bank of Credit & Commerce) An extensive document on the BCCI scandal and the Bush, CIA connection. Source: http://www.the-catbird-seat.net/BCCI.htm. "BNL Scandal Reveals Bush ...
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Bank of England 'ran away from BCCI scandal' | Business | The Guardian Jan 14, 2004 ... Bank of England 'ran away from BCCI scandal'. This article was first published on guardian.co.uk at 13.17 GMT on Wednesday 14 January 2004. ...
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The BCCI Affair FAS Note: This December 1992 document is the penultimate draft of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee report on the BCCI Affair. After it was released by ...
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[ronnie624]

Do you really think so?

:rofl:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[BrklynLiberal]

107. Isn't that very, very sad??

[liberalmuse]

3. Why aren't we taking to the streets?

Jesus, everyone from every other country has balls. Americans don't give a fuck as we are raped by CEO's and corporations. Holy shit, I can't take much more of the outrage. It's really going to kill me. America is sick, and a breeding ground for the likes of Rush and the 'pubs. I now understand all those fucking bloody revolutions. Those fucking CEO's don't care. They have their several mansions and bank accounts. Forget this peaceful shit. Peaceful revolution? You might as well bend over, because in order for peaceful revolution to work, the people you are revolting against need to have the tiniest bit of conscience.

[Redneck Socialist]

4. 70 years of right wing propoganda

The left had been the right's whipping boy for many decades now. Pretty much everyone has internalized the whole "gummint's bad" and "pull yer sef up by yer bootstraps" mantra that's been preached for dog knows how long now. Repeat something enough times, no matter how wrong-headed, and people will begin to believe it.

As long as the tv still works most people won't give a crap. Until they don't have food, until they don't have fuel, it just doesn't matter. Even then people will be shooting each other, taking out their rage on fellow citizens, instead of the government.

[DavidMS]

75. I don't see it quite that way...

We don't have idiots like Nicolas Sarkozy running our country. We just elected Barak Obama, he doesn't walk on water but he is in the grace period. He is also infinitely better than *.

We have had a few left wing victories, like the civil rights victories. Thankfully the economic elite accommodated those changes. However, they are unlikely to accommodate being kicked from power. We could get a new social contract where the rich pull their weight. I don't know what will happen, but the old ways are dead and something new is coming.

I just don't know what yet.

[harmonicon]

6. How? What people? What streets?

There aren't even that many cities in the US where people could take to the streets. What are people going to do? Spontaneously decide where to drive, how to carpool, and then go to the streets where what happens? The US is set up in such a way as to make revolutionary action nigh impossible and to keep people isolated and scared. Guy Debord lays it out pretty well in "The Society of the Spectacle".

[closeupready]

8. Yes, that's an astute observation.

Architecture has an effect on culture and society. If you, as an American, have ever lived abroad, you probably know instantly what I mean.

[harmonicon]

11. yep

Being an American who's live in Europe for two years, I've come to see how it works. I was in France on the night that Sarko was elected having dinner outside a restaurant, and the gf and I heard very strange crowd noises. So, after dinner we went to check it out and found ourselves an anti-sarko march to join in on. I can not imagine that happening in the US.

[antimatter98]

27. Population dispersion works in the US--enclosed malls, no 'downtowns' but there is DC!

DC is the focal point and should be where mass demonstrations take place, and or in NYC or LA or Chicago's city area.

I think a 1 or 2 million march on DC's Capitol would get the point across. Remember the
Bonus Army of 1932: 43,000 veterans who went to DC to demand payment of past committments---
encouraged in their DC march by U.S.M.C. Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler, one of the most popular military figures of the time (and who was later recruited by Prescott Bush and other corporatists and
bankers to head a coup d'etat against FDR).

From Wikipedia, link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

"On 28 July, 1932, Attorney General Mitchell ordered the police evacuation of the Bonus Army veterans, who resisted; the police shot at them, and killed two. When told of the killings, President Hoover ordered the U.S. Army to effect the evacuation of the Bonus Army from Washington, D.C.

At 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, Fort Myer, Virginia, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of Civil Service employees left work to line the street and watch the U.S. Army attack its own veterans. The Bonus Marchers, believing the display was in their honour, cheered the troops until Maj. Patton charged the cavalry against them — an action which prompted the Civil Service employee spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"

[tavalon]

55. Have you been to a protest lately in DC?

I went in 2005, when well over 600,000 of us protested the Iraq War and ANSWER protesting everything else as well. It was amazing to see so many people in one place and truth be told, it did my heart good to be there. It did my heart less good to have the media do an almost full on blackout and with careful photography, called the protest numbers to be in "the tens of thousands". Our Fourth Estate is failing us and short of national huge protests will probably be able to continue the malfeasance. They are Orwell's wet dream, really.

[loudsue]

96. THAT is where we need to gather...at the media offices....and protest our asses off.

The media has failed this country so miserably. The corporations that took over the airwaves for the purposes of propaganda were bad enough without our journalists raising holy hell about it.

:kick:

[riderinthestorm]

109. DC: A so called " activist power center" effects no change

even when hundreds of thousands pour into it's streets.

I'm NOT optimistic that social change can happen with mass demonstrations in DC. I've been to numerous anti-war demonstrations in Chicago (another so-called "hotspot") and guess what we changed? Nada!

Sorry - imho mass demonstrations are enabled by the elite as a stress outlet, knowing full well that NOTHING will change regardless of the numbers of people on the street.

The criminalization of our govt proceeds apace - electronically and with the manipulation of secrecy laws. Please, you can take to the street and "feel good" but know that your (our) efforts are for naught. We MUST find other ways to transmit our message.

This govt doesn't quake in fear from it's populace because they've already learned that we're a chimera, just a phantom menace without real fangs.

[defendandprotect]

111. Well. ...we always go on a day when the Congress is away for the weekend--!!!

Look, I've never been sure, but I don't think going to DC over and again on a

Saturday is the best we can do. We need more ideas -- like getting recommendations

from liberals about what they think would be effective in demonstrations.

What would Howard Zinn do now?

Shouldn't it be East Coast, West Coast, MidWest kinds of actions coming out on call?

Global Warming and cars are an immense issue -- OIL. We can make statements around

those issues -- nationalize oil, electric cars -- and I think they were planning to lay

off 20,000 - 30,000 BEFORE the bail outs!

Start where they started . . . with the weakest --- demonstrate for homeless, impoverished.

Show where our money has been going --- to capitalists -- to military.

Lots of people here --- we must all have some ideas?

How about lobbyists . . . they've done one damned bit of damage to America!


PS: And, how about some buttons --- change the messages ---

I'm in a button mood -- !!

[babythunder]

114. So advocate doing what then?

nothing?

[harmonicon]

119. I'm with you there

I've never heard of a protest or rally in the US that I've felt compelled to participate in, for those exact reasons. I think there was one quasi-effective May Day rally in LA a few years ago, but I wasn't living there then.

To answer those who ask, "what else can you do?", I simply say, "live by example". Join or start a union if it's to your advantage. Organize strikes when possible and useful. Make your opinions known within your community, whether it be your neighbours, your workplace, or your social circle. It amazes me the extent to which some people separate politics from their work, home, and personal lives.

[babythunder]

124. If a citizen is one of the millions of Americans

unemployed who exactly would they be striking? Your failing to see the fundamental problem which is Americans are losing their jobs/homes everyday and the solutions you are talking about is great if you have a job and you're relatively financially secure.

[harmonicon]

125. the homeless unemployed person is supposed to take a plane, bus, train, etc...

to DC in some sort of unemployed homeless person organized protest? I don't see what the things have in common. People ought to start voting their conscience, and also start voting their conscience with their wallets. Until then, there will be more and more unemployed and homeless people who can't do shit to affect change.

[tavalon]

127. Ask the hooverville people, if any of them are still alive, what they were striking

Yes, Obama understands, but he alone will not be able to get this country going in the right direction and I think that anyone who lives in any district of any representative who voted no to the stimulus package needs to get a tent and get their asses over to their representatives office. Extra activism points for being able to set up the tent directly in the office!

Does it make more sense now? Everyone now sitting in Washington pretending to govern needs to understand the urgency!!!

[closeupready]

120. A modern example of an effective mass protest was ACT-UP; the difference there

may have been the fact that those people were literally dying, and were not going to go quietly while Congress ignored them and remained silent.

[tavalon]

126. Mostly, you're right and then along comes the WTO protest in Seattle

which was the beginning of the end for the WTO. The last six months will be the final nails in that coffin.

It's too bad we can't synthesize the organic process that happened in Seattle (before I was here alas, but one of my partners was in it).

[inna]

102. " If you, as an American, have ever lived abroad, you probably know instantly what I mean."

i have, but i really don't understand what you mean - it does sound like a very interesting observation though;

could you please explain?...

[harmonicon]

115. well, I see that you live in San Francisco...

... so maybe you're from one of the parts of the US where this doesn't apply. In many European cities, people actually live near the economic and political centers of their cities. Suburbs do exist, but the city centers aren't vacant at night. Even in Chicago, the main residential areas are miles away from anywhere that a large - very large - group of people could congregate. When I was in Strasbourg, France, I could just walk 10 or 20 minutes to the EU parliament if I wanted to. Even in my English town of 150,000 people, most people don't drive. Having people see one another in the streets and have knowledge of the layout of an area can do wonders for mobilizing and uniting a population.

[closeupready]

118. Public spaces and how they are designed to accommodate human activities

varies from place to place. It would take a while to explain, but if you are interested in reading about how architecture influences society, Jane Jacobs' wrote a classic, "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" - just look over that as a primer. She gives example after example of how city planning and architecture can either succeed or fail both at their intended uses and at enriching human society.

Sorry, I'm not trying to cop out on you. :hi:

[No Elephants]

13. Take to the lawns just doesn't have the same ring to it, does it?

[rucky]

34. We'd have to shovel our driveways first.

I know a neighbor kid who could get this revolution thing started for 10-bucks per house.

[FailureToCommunicate]

42. Now that's funny! Get the revolution stated for $10 a driveway!

[Why Syzygy]

18. Well.

Over here, we could all just drive a few miles over to the Interstate, and park. No trucks get through. No commerce. The highways are the only place. We already know what happens when a bunch of people try to flee from disaster in their cars. Just park it there?

[harmonicon]

19. good idea

.... but it can't happen quickly and spontaneously the way that a street march or occupation can. Still, highway and road blockades have been important forces of protest in the past and will continue to be.

[FailureToCommunicate]

43. Yes, I've heard that young people use the Internets to all show up at a mall or

a street at the same time and do some goofy thing and post it on "youtube" Not quite like we used to do in massive
Anti war demonstrations in the 60' and 70's but hey, maybe it could work...
Now, not paying your 'war' taxes -700 Billion EVERY fiscal year- well, THAT gets notices real quick!

[Why Syzygy]

57. Flash Mob

Actually, quite a bit or pre-planning and organization go into that. But, sure, why not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwMj3PJDxuo&feature=channel_page

[tanyev]

Interesting. I never thought about that.

I'm going to look for that book.

[catzies]

47. Im never heard of him so I went to Google & Wikipedia. Interesting!

Thanks.

[crikkett]

51. Thanks for the reference

I'm interested to read that book now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. Bingo!

Eight years ago, an online friend (whom I've met once in person) wrote a very astute essay on why conservatives love suburbia:

Here is is. I think it explains a lot.

http://www.newcolonist.com/rr11.html

In the parts of the world that have had riots, hanging out in cafes and pubs with your neighbors and talking politics is a way of life.

[leftstreet]

80. After Shays Rebellion, one punishment was prohibition from running a tavern

That's where early US citizens got together to talk!

:toast:

http://shaysrebellion.stcc.edu/shaysapp/scenehtml.do?shortName=Oath

The Disqualification Act passed on February 16 was part of the government's attempt to deal with the thousands of citizens who had taken up arms against the state. The act pardoned any rank-and-file Regulator who came forward and paid nine pence to take an oath of loyalty to the state before a town selectman like Seth Catlin. The pardon was conditional. It did not apply to men identified as leaders. Oath takers had to surrender their weapons. They were prohibited from running a tavern, teaching school, holding office or voting for three years.

[babythunder]

113. This seems a pretty easy

you could protest a few places Wall Street being the first thing that comes to mind. Follow that with a protests in Washington. Also you aware of the Suffragist and Civil Rights Movements which were pretty successful.

[JDPriestly]

7. Because we voted for Obama, and we have hope.

We Americans are the most patient people, and I hope we stay that way.

[antimatter98]

28. Patience did not win the labor movement back in the day. And didn't win WW II. n/t

[KG]

40. yes, we are knaves, patiently waiting for a crumb to fall from the table of our betters.

:eyes:

[Zhade]

9. Oh, it'll happen. It's inevitable.

Our country is broke and broken. It's only a matter of time.

[peacetalksforall]

15. Look at the remote island-countries where these people have their money or Switzerland.

I would guess that no banks are in trouble there. Not too many protests.

Look at the hiring in India and out sourcing countries. No problems there. Not too many protests?

We know suicides are up with entire families - directly? related to loss of jobs?
We know suicides are up with military - could not reconcile what they had to do?
We know that honchos at the investment companies and banks are guaranteeing pensions for the upper crust - no conscience there?

[acsmith]

112. google UBS writedowns.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. You want to overthrow the Democratic president and Congress?

Wow, that didn't take long. I presume you did vote for them in November. They've had a week or two, and now, even a peaceful revolution against Obama isn't good enough for you? You want to use violence to get rid of him?

[hfojvt]

22. some people just want to smash something

or want some other people to get ticked off and smash something. I guess that would somehow fix everything if only there was some more anger and violence in the world. All we really need for that to happen though, is for Detroit to win some sort of national championship in sports. Maybe Pittsburgh will oblige on Sunday night.

[DFW]

53. This was written by Frank Zappa over 40 years ago

And it was about race riots in Los Angeles, as the text implies, but
it's as pertinent to today's economic situation, and the potential
reaction to it, as anything else I've seen or heard sung about the subject:

(from "Trouble Coming Every Day")

Well, I seen the fires burnin'
And the local people turnin'
On the merchants and the shops
Who used to sell their brooms and mops
And every other household item
Watched the mob just turn and bite 'em
And they say it served 'em right
Because a few of them are white,
And it's the same across the nation
Black and white discrimination
Yellin' "You can't understand me!"
'N all that other jazz they hand me
In the papers and TV and
All that mass stupidity
That seems to grow more every day
Each time you hear some nitwit say
He wants to go and do you in
Because the color of your skin
Just don't appeal to him
(No matter if it's black or white)
Because he's out for blood tonight

Obama has been in there less than two weeks, and it's already time to burn the place down?
Obama said it will get worse before it gets better, but I don't think that is what he had
in mind.

The day after the election, I predicted he would be savaged by his own fans for not bringing
equality, instituting universal health care, curing AIDS and cancer, and bringing about world
peace before the end of his first month in office. It looks like it didn't even take that long.

[primavera]

61. It's not necessarily about "savaging Obama"

Just because Obama won doesn't let citizens off the hook for being civically involved. To be an effective president, Obama needs to know how his constituents feel. He needs to understand that people are fed up with corporate America pirating first shareholder assets and then taxpayer dollars to buy themselves 50 million dollar private jets, million dollar office suits, and countless billions in bonuses squirreled away in offshore accounts. The American citizen has been far too complacent and docile for far too long. Obama was elected as a champion of government by, for, and of the people. It's not "savaging" him to let him know that addressing the excesses of Milton Friedman's Darwinistic vision of unregulated, wild west, cowboy capitalism is a priority for the American people. And how can the American people express that concern? Through peaceful demonstrations, LTTEs, letters to their representatives and to the administration, and all of the other various and sundry mechanisms of activism. But I don't think that's "savaging" anyone.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. Not for you, but 3 was "Forget this peaceful shit. Peaceful revolution? You might as well bend over"

That was the post that started this sub-thread. They don't want to worry about "peaceful demonstrations, LTTEs, letters to their representatives and to the administration, and all of the other various and sundry mechanisms of activism"; they want to proceed straight to the savaging of people. Presumably the government is their target (since they replied to an OP about governments trembling); so their post reads as a call for the violent overthrow of Obama and/or Congress. Not good, IMO.

[FailureToCommunicate]

63. Hey I'm the first to say Zappa was an under appreciated genius but the Kerner

Commission Report had a somewhat more insightful analysis of the unrest in 1968.
People here on this thread are not savaging Obama for not fixing all the problems in the first few days, so much as
disparaging the general passivity of Americans when Americans-the underclasses at least- are being savaged.
Let's all go back to our TV set or our computer and chill. Nothing to see here, move along...

[Waiting For Everyman]

78. Link to song, and an anecdote...

From the "Freak Out" album...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpwCpUEFaDo

Zappa's family was from Baltimore - he's one of our colorful favorite sons. Back in the late 1960's, his two elderly uncles used to own a deli in the neighborhood where I lived there. One day a friend and I asked if they were related to Frank. They said both at the same time, "You mean you've heard of him??!!" They couldn't believe he was actually famous - they thought he was exaggerating. :rofl:

They were very witty themselves, they reminded me of the two old guys on the Muppets, only Greek. :)

[tavalon]

56. These should be protests against the corporations, not the government

The corporations now own the government but still, the government is now trying to help, the corporations not at all. It's time for the workers to revolt against their owners, the corporations.

[NeoConsSuck]

93. Exactly

A blockcade of everyone's local Bank of America or Citibank would be a good start. Shutting the bastards down for even a few hours would make headlines, and maybe get the ball rolling.

Shine the light on the cockroaches, the capitalists who caused this mess. It wasn't the government, that's for sure.

[glitch]

94. Far more appropriate. And not all the corporations either, just the criminal ones.

Plenty to chose from, starting with the oil companies and KBR, Halliburton, Blackwater, anything owned even in small part by the war profiteers; especially but not limited to: Bushes, Cheneys, Rumsfelds, Roves.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[byeya]

32. Social Contract

The post WW2 social contract was, we let you stay rich and run the corporations and we, the prolesdo the work but earn enough to live on and send our kids to college. In return you, the rich, don't receive visits from us, the proles, at 2AM and get strung up on the nearest lamp post.
They broke the contract: somehow we need to enforce the penalties.

[KG]

38. because americans, for all their blather about freedom and liberty, are mostly knaves

who know who their betters are.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

58. The most oppressive criminal justice system in the world would wreck the rest of your life.

The Homeland Security Act of 2002 will put a violent end to any protests in the name of national security. Also, many of the vanguard that would lead in civil unrest are already incarcerated or are under surveillance and would be detained if such an action was eminent or even seriously considered.

[Runcible Spoon]

59. No, history shows that an act of violence against the people would actually IGNITE

a movement.

[FailureToCommunicate]

69. "Many in the vanguard are already in jail" Really? Who? Pete Seeger,Howard Zinn

Seymour Melman, are all currently out. Well Melman is not in jail, he's in heaven, causing a ruckus no doubt.
But seriously, who are you talking about?

[anonymous171]

79. The French revolution was an astounding failure compared to the American revolution.

Why? Because our revolution wasn't based on anti-rich reactionary fervor, but on progressive ideals.

[Night_Nurse]

122. Because most Americans have been sedated/hypnotized by television...

and rendered unfit to fight due to a steady diet of junk-food.

We're so screwed.

[xchrom]

5. recommend

[shanti]

10. americans won't do it....

yet. i wonder what the tipping point will be?

[McCamy Taylor]

12. The Big Corporations are hoping that Obama will keep it from happening here.

But only time will tell.

[hfojvt]

23. I am hoping it won't happen here too

Should I be rooting for the Steelers instead?

[Divine Discontent]

26. if they're held responsible in the manner in which they should be it may not happen here

but that would include our gov't penalizing the shameful companies for billions and billions. KBR & Blackwater's assets should be frozen for the harm they've done, and CEOs should be forced to give up their bonuses from the past 8 years. Some of them have been paid hundreds of millions in that time frame. How that can be permitted, and still expect a country not to fall apart because of corporate mismanagement resulting in bailouts or economic collapse, is beyond me.

I share the rioters rage. As someone said, just one more big screw up could send this country into explosive situations.

I'm hoping for none of that, and President Obama to continue calming the nation while enacting piece by piece repairs of our shattered govt - oh, and the B*sh Admin. should be arrested, if not by our gov't, maybe other gov't will do it if they go abroad.

[byeya]

35. Tipping Point

I too wonder if there will be a tipping point and what it will be.

[CANDO]

44. I'm giving Obama and the Dems a certain grace period.

But I have a strong feeling we will be played. They don't want to upset the power brokers and will pay whatever lip service they need to keep us pacified. When I see a serious effort to go back to wealth confiscation/redistribution on par with 91% top tax rates, then I'll know Obama and the Dems get it. If the rich believe in this country, then they need to pay for it. They and their cushy lifestyles don't exist in a vacuum. We afforded them the opportunity. Warren Buffet may not want to go back to 91% tax rates, but he understands and supports the idea of there not being a landed gentry of handed down wealth in this country.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

52. Starvation and homelessness often do the trick.

[llmart]

73. That's because.......

they have nothing to lose. The more people lose everything, the more likely they'll be revolt.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

104. Exactly.

[diamidue]

98. The hungry

The poor and the homeless don't have the resources to stage a true revolt. I remember reading (in Studs Turkel's book, "HARD TIMES") about a group of several thousand unemployed ex-soldiers who rode the rails to DC to protest during the Depression. They had been promised a bonus for fighting in Germany and they wanted to lobby Hoover to get the bonus money right away instead of waiting for the govt. red tape. Hoover refused them. They squatted in make-shift camps around Pennsylvania Ave. An additional 20, - 40,000 camped nearby. The military came at them full force with bayonets and tear gas bombs, and they didn't stand a chance. The angry starving and the homeless nowadays will most likely just end up in guarded government camps.

Revolutions are started by charismatic leaders and strong, idealistic young men - with guns. People die. Read "FIDEL CASTRO, My Life". He vigorously studied the history of the world's revolutions and he was prepared when it came time to act. Castro was able to succeed because his country was small. The USA is way too big. No way we could organize ourselves in secret. No way we could train; have the finances needed, etc.

Standing around downtown carrying signs; marching in the streets; writing letters to the editor - it may make you feel good, but nothing else.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

105. The homeless and starving don't carry signs.

The middle class does.

...just a job away.

[harun]

129. 10% unemployment would probably do it.

[Hubert Flottz]

14. Hell, we'll be damned lucky if we're not all taking to the streets

to find a bus stop bench to sleep on before this bush induced calamity we see unfolding across this nation ever comes to an end.

We were warned about the "Curse/bug of the millennium" and the 8 years of slash crash and burn BushConomics is it! The shit is hitting the fans all around the world and America looks like where this enormous economic shit storm will finally make landfall in all it's trickle down fury. If the GOP's sore losers have any say in the country's economic matters in the weeks and months to come, we may very well all find ourselves living on the streets 24/7.

The nightmare of "taking to the streets" for real, because the CEOs and the banks that your tax dollars bailed out then turned around and foreclosed and threw your ass out in the streets, is the GOP's wet American dream I'm afraid.

I keep remembering my Dad telling me about he and his younger brother and two sisters killing and cooking chipmunks outside in a tin can over an open fire for something to eat during the great depression and I never laugh about people being out on the streets. It's time to worry a little more about the kids that have been born and how we're going to feed them.

"Just Politics" like the GOP is STILL playing in Washington, might very well lead to the death of our country as we all knew it.

[Why Syzygy]

20. Something crossed my mind for the first

time during this crisis, just yesterday... What must those people who lived through the Depression be thinking/feeling? For many of us, they are our parents, and we have heard stories our entire lives and lived with family financial decisions made based on those experiences. Do they have anything to tell us? What would they say? What can we learn from them to help us deal with the current?

[llmart]

74. My parents lived during the Depression.......

and I learned valuable coping and planning skills from them. I've spent my entire adult life being frugal and I don't worry about money. I can live with very little and be content. I have a lot of savings and no debt.

[lebkuchen]

30. Too bad the GOP is opposed to family planning

Carefully planning for one's family, or no family, is just what's called for in these economic doom times. Good luck to the woman with the 14 kids who is bankrupt. I wish her family well, but she sure picked a horrible time to raise a passel.

Gold is almost at $1K again. How high do you think it will go?

[Hubert Flottz]

60. "Gold is almost at $1K again"

And the dollar is worth less every day. Thank Gawd Aldi came to America!

[Jambalaya]

90. Martial law

Why is a U.S. Army brigade being assigned to the "Homeland ... Sep 24, 2008 ... The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 tightened these restrictions, ... But there is a loophole: Posse Comitatus is waived if the president ...
www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/24/army/ - Similar pages

Posse Comitatus The Posse Comitatus Act - Prohibits search, seizure, or arrest powers to US military personnel. Amended in 1981 under Public Law 97-86 to permit increased ...
www.au.af.mil/au/aul/bibs/posse/posse.htm - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

Democracy Now! | Is Posse Comitatus Dead? US Troops on US Streets Oct 7, 2008 ... In a barely noticed development, a US Army unit is now training for domestic operations under the control of US Army North, the Army service ...
www.democracynow.org/2008/10/7/us_army_denies_unit_will_be - 55k -

[balantz]

16. It will be interesting to see what happens here. Being poor with a kid is scary.

I sure don't feel secure about the impending nightmare.

[JNelson6563]

29. Good thing the downtrodden in USA know their place.

Bravo to the Europeans who are much better than us at not taking shit.

Julie

[Diclotican]

46. JNelson6563

JNelson6563

We in Europe have had a far more experience with this affair here, you know, the French Revolution of 1789, the Napoleon Wars, the Revolution of 1848, who by the way scared the hell out of everyone in charge, and for the most part, was the tipping point for the well fare system we have today in most West European country, because they understand that to be in control they had to give some to the working class.. And one of the most conservative leaders, Otto Von Bismarck, was one of the first leaders to get health care and a sort of "Pension founds" for the workers into place, in a time when the rest of the world had to work to their death.. And Germany was just one of the first of the european country to do the same thing - because they understand that the working class did had some clout to it.. the other social unrest of the 1800s.. The Russian revolution of 1917, and the two world wars - and also a far more willingness to fight for your right than in the US. Who for the last 80-100 year have been told that every direction to the left (political speaking) is evil and that you have to love the capitalist system for all their fault and wrongs ) Even when the people who are the most rich are stealing your blind and naked, and then trow you all out on the street og crying of laughter, all the way to the oversea bank at Cayman Island and other places... They would run, and let you all sit there with the bill after.. They have the mans, and would be out of the US long before the american public have the guts to fight back and take back some of what you own and deserve to own.. And as long as your TV can function, and that you are following "the stars to the top" of everything possible, or following your latest reality show, you are all content (for the most part) and just let it goes by...

If change is to come to the US, YOU, who are living in the US have to change it. Not just let Obama work his ass out in the try - and if he have not the support of 66.000.000 + millions, who actually VOTED for him in 2008 he have no possible Chance of doing it.. You have to do a far better work, to change everything that have been ruined for the last 8 year - or maybe 30 year since Reagan got into office in 1980.. You can do it, I know that if the americans can fly to the moon, and back safe. You can make this happened too.. You can have a "clean break" of sorts, or just let the neo-conservative thugs run over you, again, and again, and again all the time.... Your choose it at your own peril..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[JNelson6563]

62. My dear Diclotican

you are, of course, completely right, it is up to the masses here in the US to make things happen. I like to think we've made progress by getting Obama elected but we have to be out there supporting him en masse every step of the way for all the good he'll try to do.

You're in Norway if I remember correctly. You guys have a great model of social safety net.

Cheers,
Julie

[Diclotican]

85. JNelson6563

JNelson6563

You are the people he is just the beginning.. He got a mandate to make some progress, but YOU, in the US have to do some of the work too, if you do not, the Republicans, the Neo-Cons, and the "conservatives" of US would try hard to steal his power, and steal YOUR power again, and again, and again all over the place.. You in the US have to tell the "Owners" that you are not putting up with it anymore, and that You claim your power back.. But that means you have you stick your neck out and be prepared to be told to shut up...

America, is a wonderfully place, and I do know that you can put all wrongs to right, if you ever get the chance to do it. With mr Obama I believe you have a golden possibility to do that, make it right.. But YOU have to make it happened to.. Mr Obama is just one man, you are more than 300 millions.. If the majority of them want to change things, the neo-cons the thief's and the rest of the criminal gangs have no possible chance in hell to stop you from doing it...

Yes I am living in Norway, and we do have a good safety net, even that it is far from perfect, and some is falling behind... But compared to US.... We have a pretty good safety net...

:toast: :hi:

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[Kermitt Gribble]

81. Excellent post! n/t

[underpants]

33. Sen. Webb had a great NYT editorial on this a few years ago-income disparity and justice

I can't find the article now

in it he basically stated the obvious-the prime obligation of governing is to sustain the governings' position and the biggest threat to that position is income inequality/disparity and lack of justice (real or perceived)

[DinahMoeHum]

36. Try this (from the Wall Street Journal)

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009246

[underpants]

37. WSJ not NYT thank you n/t

[Joanne98]

41. Wait until it warms up. March is going to be rocking.

[Earth_First]

50. I surely hope so...

While I don't encourage anything violent by any means, a massive American revolt against the corporation is LOOOOONG overdue.

[lib2DaBone]

45. How to direct the revolution at the Repukes..Not Obama?

...we don't want to overthrow the Dems and Obama. The seething anger and hostility that has been pent up is towrards Bush, Cheney, Rove and all their CEO Wall Street pals.

I don't know how this could be directed at them, but it needs to be done.

[Kermitt Gribble]

82. Maybe the march could be on Wall St. instead of DC? n/t

[earth mom]

48. Time for Americans to WAKE THE HELL UP!

:argh:

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. Is George Bush responsible for the European economic problems too?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. No, but it's the same mindset, the growth of right-wing politicians

such as Sarkozy and Berlusconi, and pseudo-liberals like Tony Blair putting lipstick on conservative politics.

[Diclotican]

86. Leftcoast

Leftcoast

True, and that is an danger we have to live with, here to.. But I do believe that the right wing politic ans are something that would never go into "mainstream" European attitude in the same degree as in US.. Men like Berlusconi is more been seen as clowns than real politicians.. He is an dangerous clown, but compared to many americans, who seen to like this clowns who is fooling, the most Italian's doesn't seen to support mr B. like many american supported, and support still men like Bush, who they see as the savior of mankind..

Sarkozy is maybe a right wing, but he have more problems with the french government that he would admit to, and the french have never been to easy to govern, not sinde 1789 when the last king was thrown out...

In many cases, the reason that men like Sarkozy and Berlusconi at all is elected as prime minister and president, is because the political word is corrupt and out of date with the public at large. And they may even managed to tell the public wat they want to hear and therefore is elected.. Italia's political elite are one of the most corrupt in Europe and most people is just tired of the all.. Therefore a clown like Berlusconi have the chair as Prime minister - and he would be thrown out if Italia had an political figure, who was seen as "clean"..

Tony Blair on the other hand, is an disappointment of gigantic proportions.. Before this horrible, stupid thing with the Iraq war, I admired the man.. When he tried to lie to everyone even when the Intel was telling that something was horrible wrong I lost almost all faith in him.. Today I have no faith in him - and the same is the case for the most British it look like.. And I believe he understand it too, even that he would public never admit to be wrong in the WMD case.. On the other hand, if he had not lied to the world, he might have been the prime minister still..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[Diclotican]

83. The Backlash Cometh

The Backlash Cometh

Never say that George Walker Bush jr are responsible for our economical problems at all. What in the world have put that mind into your head?.. But compared to the economical problems YOU have, our "socialism" light as some of your american claim our system to be, we sees to have "some" oversight over the problem... And it is most in the Eastern Europe the biggest problem are,not in the "old europe" as mr Rumsfeld tried to pinpoint us as, in the warming up to the Iraqi War... How nicely that have fold out after that happened.. Yes we have problems, some grave problems to, but I do believe Europe are in far better shape than US for the moment, when it came to make the economical downturn less painfully than in your "amazing" Capitalism where the biggest criminals have managed to steal your blind for the last 30-40 year.. You have more then 10 billion US dollar in debt, it is a debt that your grandchildren children have to repay.... Maybe your grandchild's grandhildren have to repay - in full.. Or US can get insolvent, and have to lend the money from somewhere else.. If they have the luck..

In fact, some of Europe do have a surplus, as our little "Commie light" country, as one of your americans once claim Norway to be. For the next 40 year or so, if nothing goes down the drain, we would have a solid surplus on the budget - on the other hand we are not to keen on going to war against everyone else on the planet either.. And for the record, we are one of 4 country in the world, who Docent Have Debt at All.. Try to get that going in the US. :sarcasm: Not bad for a country of 4.6 million I might add.. And on top of that we Do have Universal Public Healt Care...Something that You in the US do not have.. In fact US are one of the verry few country, where public healtcare is subsidied, or allmoust free. Yes we do pay our fair share of taxes, but we do have a healt care that is pretty good too.. And it is paid for, by the State.. (With our taxes off course)

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[Jambalaya]

89. Bush Dy-NASTY

Are you old enough to remember the last looting of the Treasury during Poppy Bush's administration?

BCCI involved MANY foreign investmnents-AND investors.

leveymg Journals here at DU have the most extensive archive on this I've ever come across.

It would behoove ANYONE who is interested in abuse of power to familiarize themselves with the S&L/BCCI frauds of late '80s.

[BelgianMadCow]

100. our bankers have been no less greedy than yours

and bought into the wonder :sarcasm: portfolios as well.

Next year, the interest on the govt bank loans alone equals the total free spendable budget over here.

We may not be in the same boat, but definitely the same rough sea. Is it all GWB's fault? Nah that's too easy. But looking at the derivatives bubble since 2005...in large part, yes.

[MilesColtrane]

54. And, in the U.S....?

*Crickets* as it's citizens, their 401Ks wiped out, their jobs being cut, their tax money going for CEO bonuses and foreign factories, their homes being foreclosed, sit huddled around the TV for the new season of American Idol and 24.

[FailureToCommunicate]

70. Wait till analog broadcasts cease -or our TVs are repossessed- and you will

hear some howling! Don't mess with an angry granny!

[lib2DaBone]

97. How are people going to afford Converter Boxes?

..These people have no fucking heat in their homes.. and no medical care.

God Bless or CONgress and Senate.

[LeftHandPath]

65. What time does American Idol start this week?

Not sure what it will take to get us out on the streets to stop this nonsense.

[nichomachus]

67. Here's the problem

In Europe, after WW2, the Europeans developed the cities for the middle class and left the suburbs to poor people and immigrants. This is why European cities are vibrant, clean, and have good public transportation.

In the US, we reversed it. The middle class moved to the burbs with their spacious lawns, cookie cutter houses, station wagons, and malls. We left the inner cities to the poor people and immigrants. This is why the inner cities went to shit (until recently). This is why we have no cities with good public transportation -- save a very small handful -- and why you won't find spontaneous crowds running into the streets to protest.

In the burbs, there are no downtowns - - and malls, the new "downtown" -- are considered private property. We've corporatized "downtwon."

[WriteDown]

68. One minor contentio...

after WWII, the US, built European cities for the middle class. In all seriousness though, the US is just a victim of its own land area. If the country were small like the UK and Germany, we'd see more people in "villages."

[FailureToCommunicate]

71. Hello History get me re-write: Yes the US Marshall plan helped rebuild many

European cities the Allies had bombed, but they rebuilt them similar to what they HAD been since the Middle Ages: people close around markets or Castles or
Churches with the grazing and growing lands surrounding a town center. Brilliant. But not "built FOR the middle classes"
It's true that our land, and the auto, made for our sprawl. (And thanks so much to the Native Americans for moving away)

[WriteDown]

72. As a Native American....

not sure I can say you're welcome. Thanks for that great reservation though.

[FailureToCommunicate]

76. Aren't they nice? Lots of wide open space with no one to bother you. Hey, wait a

minute! Is that uranium on your, I mean our, land?!?

[WriteDown]

91. Haha...

Wrong spot. You can actually see my tribe in the movie "Frozen River." No uranium, but all the sub-zero temperatures you could ever want.

[FailureToCommunicate]

101. You mean they haven't found anything YET to have them tear up the rights to

the land? Lucky.

[tama]

123. Got interested

looking into what fight "Mohawks" are today fighting and found this very interesting:

"The Ganienkeh Council Fire and all traditional Kanien’kehà:ka people are a sovereign entity independent from those entities of North America referred to as the United States of America and Canada. This is a fundamental part of each traditional Kanien'kehà:ka’s* lifelong education. Our education has been conscientiously passed down by those who lived before us and will continue to be relayed for the generations of Kanien’kehà:ka not yet born. This is our legacy, this is our history and this is our reality, a reality that has been insidiously suppressed from the greater public by those foreign political, educational and media institutions of the US and Canada.

Ganienkeh is a branch of the original sovereign Kanien’kehà:ka Nation located within the sovereign traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka. Ganienkeh is NOT a reservation nor is it “recognized” as a “Tribe or Band” by the US or Canada. Ganienkeh does not accept funding from the United States or Canadian governments in any form and does not wish to be “recognized” as a “Tribe or Band” under any foreign law, to be such would be the highest form of insult imaginable.

The Territory of Ganienkeh was re-established on the 13th of May, 1974 as an action to prove our independence as a free people since time immemorial. To assume unabated authority from within our original homeland that includes nine-million plus acres within what is referred to as New York State. In addition our original homeland also includes areas in Vermont, Quebec and Ontario. New York State to this day has not proven any solid claim to our homeland beyond two fraudulent transactions. One by Joseph Brant a British subject of Kanien’kehà:ka decent and the other by the self proclaimed 'Seven Nations of Canada'. Neither had the consent, sanction or authority of the Kanien’kehà:ka Nation or the Ratinonhshionni’ón:we** (In fact, nobody has the right to sell away our children’s future.)"
http://www.ganienkeh.net/33years/

My best wishes for the People of the Flint.

[babythunder]

116. I disagree with this statement

There is a strong middle class living in European cities but they also have upper to middle class neighborhoods as well. Also I think your statement fails to take into account that not every American city is the same. For example to compare San Francisco to Detroit would be ridiculous because they are so incredibly different. In the sense that San Fran has pretty much priced out anyone that isn't upper middle class. Whereas Detroit is almost a dead city with the few exceptions of the immediate downtown there is nothing other then poverty. Almost all the upper middle class to wealthy people live in the surrounding suburbs.

In terms of transportation the cities that have mass transit such as New York City has completely mismanaged and then you have cities like LA where they don't even make an attempt at creating viable mass transit.

Getting back to the main topic of Americans organizing the problem between us and our European counterparts is that we look for excuses instead of ways to act. If wasn't the excuse about lack of transit then it would be the weather is too cold, or that we're too busy etc. All the while our country falls down around us.

[WriteDown]

121. Your words ring true...

San Fran and places like Seattle have pretty much priced out anyone who is not middle class or even upper middle class.

[Blue_Tires]

77. our situation is a little different

a lot of the anger in strife is not at government directly, but the corporate and wealthy influences which uses government to fortify their power...

[diamidue]

106. Which makes it all the more difficult

I mean, WHO exactly do you revolt against? Your Representatives in DC? Wall Street & The Corporate world? The Federal Reserve? The global Bankers? The Media? The CFR/Bilderberg crowd?

People are talking about taking to the streets to demand change. Demand change from who? How are we supposed to target all the above players? They are all linked.

[Blue_Tires]

128. yes, the web is wound very tightly

not sure how anyone would go about cutting off the bad strands without losing the whole thing

[bvar22]

92. Look to the South for guidance.

No....not the southern USA, but South/Central America.
A bloodless revolution has swept across the entire continent bringing in sweeping Social Reforms.
(The BIGGEST story NOT reported in our Corporate Owned Media).

They have shown us the way.
They simply Voted Out those who served the Corporations, and replaced them with REAL social reformers.


Do these people serve YOU, or the Big Wall Street banks?

[lib2DaBone]

95. This is a SAD picture of reality.....

[Penance]

99. The Baltic States are following the Neocon/Republican model

The Baltic States implemented the flat tax and other Neo-Conservative economic reforms. The story remains the same in every place that implements the Neocon philosophy: blistering economic growth on paper that only affects the very wealthy followed by a "Wiley E Coyote moment" where they realize it was all hollow and crash down to earth in flames. The Baltic states were recently touted by the Heritage Foundation as models for other countries. Now they bear the brunt of the recession. Look next to Slovakia and compare to the neighboring Czech Republic and Poland.

[harun]

130. All good points, thanks (n/t)

[inna]

103. an amazing atricle, i just rec'd it; thanks for this! n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

108. Our streets should have been teeming with rioters 8+ years ago!!!!

[unkachuck]

110. reinvent Communism/Socialism, Comrade....

"...put their faith in a capitalism now in crisis and by which they feel betrayed."

....no need to leave real Socialism on the ash-heap of history....brush it off, clean it up, put a new polish and spin on it, call it democratic....

....you could hire your own Comrade Milt Friedman's to show and explain the virtues of the new Progressive Socialism....make it work, make it prosper and the world will change with you....

....capitalism is old, tired and inherently unfair, inherently undemocratic; it can't be made to be fair....billions go without food, shelter, medicine and potable water everyday....capitalism will not/can not deliver the 21st century solutions the world needs....

....we in America are on rapid downward economic and social spiral as we struggle with even the basic elements of Socialism....we'll catch up with you eventually or we may find ourselves on the ash-heap of history....

[IndianaGreen]

117. "Tremble" comes straight out of Marx

Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

Communist Manifesto
Marx & Engels

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm