Catholic U.S. Lawmakers Call for Direct Repudiation

[struggle4progress]

Source: Washington Post

Saturday, January 31, 2009; Page B06

Fifty Catholic members of Congress have written Pope Benedict XVI, asking him to directly reject the views of British-born Bishop Richard Williamson, who has denied the scale of the Holocaust. Benedict last week reinstated Williamson and three other bishops who have rejected the church's teachings from the second Vatican Council ...

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/30/AR2009013003324.html

[BootinUp]

1. I am so disgusted with Benedict

its impossible to state the level of disgust in a universally understood manner.

[TechBear_Seattle]

35. You misspelled Maladict

"Benedict" = "speak well" or "say a blessing"
"Maladict" = "speak ill" or "say a curse"

[bos1]

2. The Church had to heal a schism; reinstating Williamson was part of the deal.

The other reinstated members were in solidarity with Williamson and would not come back to the fold without him. So the Pope did what he had to do. Given the overwhelming effort the Vatican has made to remember and honor the Holocaust constantly over the years, I think this move by these Congress members is a huge overreaction and reeks of politics, not ethics.

[Garbo 2004]

3. Why did the church "have to " heal a schism?. And in this fashion?

Remember only recently the church gave props to Gallileo. The church's current credibility and standing isn't exactly heightened by embracing Holocaust deniers.

[bos1]

4. It's not embracing Holoc.deniers at all; it is one of the largest forces for Holocaust remembrance.

It is healing divisions among its members.

[Sub Atomic]

32. The Catholic Church has a very, very long history of anti-semitism.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/timeline.htm

[bos1]

39. the WORLD has a very long history of anti-semiticism. eom

[No Elephants]

9. How many people were involived in this "schism?" The Church has had

schisms since before the Nicene Creed.

[bos1]

18. I believe there were four important members reinstated.

that's been overshadowed in all this hoopla.

[No Elephants]

24. FOUR? That's the big deal schism? Four people? Doesn't seem to justify Wiliamson.

[bos1]

26. four representing some ecclesiastical importance.

Who are you to judge?

[tomg]

46. Well, it is a little more than four.

Williamson and the others were, I believe, originally ordained priests by Archbishop Lefebvre, the head of the St. Pope Pius X Society, a group of Catholics who were, to put it mildly, traditionalist. Strongly against Vatican II reforms, the SPPX makes the Opus Dei look like DU. They are so far to the right, politically and theologically, as to be entirely off the map. Theologically, it gets dicey because Lefebvre decided to make four of these priests bishops, which means that they can now ordain new priests ( the decision to make these folks bishops in the first place was part of the problem).

There are SPPX schools, churches, clergy. Neither Paul VI nor John Paul II figured out what to do with these characters. I believe that Williamson is now their head, and that with this move, they have, in fact, the same theological status as a group like Opus Dei ( Catholic, but don't let anyone know). My take is that it is part of Benedict's agenda to return to pre-Vatican II reforms.

SPPX are really weird. They came out strongly against the Iraq war and condemned all forms of preemptive strikes (they are good guys!). On the Civil war, their analysis is Marxist: "the Industrial Revolution produced a new kind of slavery, that of the factory workers, who would sweat very long hours for little income, for the profit of their capitalist masters." ( Hey, now they are really cooking). then they talk about women ( bad), gays (really bad) Jews (really really bad - they are responsible for you-know-who's death).

I think their attitude to playing the guitar sums them up best: in answer to the question "Could you indicate whether I can perform classic country acoustic guitar folk music for income?" the answer is "It is perfectly permissible to perform old time country folk music for income. ( provided). . . . that the style remains that of folk music, refusing the deformations of Jazz and Rock."

all info from their very own website of the weird: http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__morality.htm

[CatholicEdHead]

47. Many SSPXers (overlaps to many Latin Mass Catholics) see themsevles as above the Church

Unless it is full Latin they will whine to high heaven about things not being valid. :crazy: They can get really mean spirited pushing their agenda.

[bos1]

49. amazing info.

Thank you so much for taking the time.

[JerseygirlCT]

23. Will the church also be working as hard to "heal" the schism with

those who have ordained women, and with the ordained women?

I rather doubt it.

So, Holocaust deniers are good and welcome home; women, though...

[bos1]

27. You confuse the issue. He was not reinstated for being a holoc.denier but for unrelated reasons. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

33. No, I get that

My point is his transgressions - going outside of the church because he didn't agree with Vatican II - are okey dokey, even when combined with his Holocaust denial.

But the women? Oh, now being ordained is just beyond the pale. We'd rather have a Holocaust denier back in the he-men, women-haters club.

[bos1]

38. apples and oranges (small apple and huge orange)

accepting former members back into the fold can hardly be compared to a fundamental change in 1000+ years of history

[JerseygirlCT]

40. My response still holds

Think about this: women being ordained is the big threat. Does that in any sane way make sense? Toss out the boys' club mind set that the RCC has carefully cultivated. It's silliness.

But those who wanted to drag the church away from the reforms of Vatican II, and who in their lives have caused inestimable hurt to many people and to future relations with other faiths... this is small enough apples to overlook in the name of unity.

We're faced with horribly bigoted and stubborn men, who refuse to see the truth in front of their face. Women were an integral part of the early church, and ought to be once again, treated as equals. But for too long, the men have clung to power and created whatever silly excuses they need to create in order to feel comfortable in their bigotry.

I find that astounding,actually. And that's why I'm now an Episcopalian.

[tomg]

43. I wonder if it is so much an

attempt to heal a schism as it is part of Benedict's overall strategy to return the Church to its pre-Vatican II positions, botyh theologically and politically. Williamson was ordained a priest by Lefebvre of the SPPX. While their theological positions are conservative, the political positions are downright fascist.

I do agree with what you have said about the Vatican over the past few years, but I also foresee a sharp shift fairly soon.

[bos1]

45. you may be right. thx for the insight. eom

[bos1]

5. Strange article and statement

So far the WAPO article is the one and only source to be found on this, apparently, and it is only 2 paragraphs long with little info. Who signed this? Who put it forward?

Then there is this part of their statement:

"As a spiritual leader and the head of the Catholic Church, we believe it is vital that you publicly state your unequivocal position on this matter so that it is clear where the Church stands on one of the most consequential events of the 20th century."

This Pope has been totally unequivocal about remembering the Holocaust, as was the one before him and the one before him. So where do they get off in saying this?

[No Elephants]

10. He cannot say one thing in one context, say

the opposite in another context and expect to get away with both. If you remember the Holocaust--and why wouldn't a member of Hitler Youth remember the Holocaust--you don't reinstate a Holocaust denier. You cannot have it both ways.

[bos1]

19. all he is saying is he wants to heal a split within the Church.

He in no way has ever said anything about the Holocaust except to remember it and honor the victims.

[No Elephants]

22. Reinstating a holocaust denier is inconsistent with gestures about the holocaust. You cannot get

credit for both. Watch what I say, not what I do does not fly. He deserves whatever heat he gets for this, be it from Catholics or from Jews, or from the rest of the world. He cannot have it both ways.

[bos1]

25. life is not as simple as your platitudes.

The Church is one of the main forces behind Holocaust remembrance. The Church healed a schism by reinstating a group of ex-members, one of who holds these untoward beliefs on this issue. His beliefs in no way effects the Church's long-held position, though some would like to inflate this negligible circumstance into something that it is not.

[struggle4progress]

14. Rosa DeLauro (D - CT)

For Immediate Release
Friday, January 30, 2009
Contact: Adriana Surfas
202-225-3661 ...

Below is the text of the letter ...

<signatories>

http://delauro.house.gov/release.cfm?id=1465

[davidinalameda]

6. he should be excommunicated again

but Herr Pope won't do that

[bos1]

7. stop hate, as it says next to your name.

Stop hating Catholics and the Pope, too then. "Herr Pope" -- what total hatespeech.

[No Elephants]

12. "Total hatespeech?" Are you

serious? Benedict is German.

Herr   /hɛr; Eng. hɛər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun-the conventional German title of respect and term of address for a man, corresponding to Mr. or in direct address to sir.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
< G
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Cite This Source


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/herr

[struggle4progress]

15. ya needs to brush up yer german a bitsy

[No Elephants]

17. Don't tell me. Tell all the online dictionaries.

[davidinalameda]

16. who said I hate Catholics and the Pope?

I think the Catholic Church as an institution has a lot to answer for in respect to Pius during WW2

and this doesn't do anything to dispel any doubts that people have about Pius' actions

[bos1]

28. it sounded like hate.

you got to realize that Pius reigned 60 years ago. Move on. The Church has. Even Berlin has. Do you still "doubt" Berliners? (edited to make it nicer)

[davidinalameda]

31. I don't care if it happened 600 years ago

until the Vatican open up the archives, people are still going to wonder what exact happened

[bos1]

36. you didn't answer. do you "doubt" Berliners, all Germans, US gov (project paperclip) as strongly?

Or do you have issues with Catholics? If you hold onto your resentment for Catholics, why not for Germans and all the others much more directly culpable?

I say move on, like Germany and the Church has.

[Odin2005]

34. The RCC is a bunch of homophobic, misogynistic bigots. Razi the Nazi can kiss my Atheist ass.

[bos1]

37. as I said, Hate rears its head. eom

[Odin2005]

41. The RCC deserves it.

[ShortnFiery]

21. But he will "aid and abet" his subordinates to bugger little boys and girls - sans excommunication.

:eyes:

[dcindian]

8. You got to keep politics out of religion.

This mixing is just wrong.

[No Elephants]

11. I agree, but the Pope doesn't keep religion out of politics. It goes both ways. It's about time

churches get that: It goes BOTH ways.

[dcindian]

13. Absolutely

No way better to corrupt politics or religion then by mixing them.

[ShortnFiery]

20. It's not like our Good Catholics in Congress don't have other things to do.

Let's hyper-focus on some deluded priest within another country? :crazy:

[anonymous171]

30. The pope is a head of state. nt

[anonymous171]

29. He reinstates the facists but ignores the leftists.

Maladict is starting to scare me now.

[IndianaGreen]

42. The former Hitlerjugend regrets the war ended too soon for him to join the Waffen SS

So what's this about Benedict chastising some holocaust denier?

[tomg]

44. Well, I do agree with Richard

Williamson on one issue. He though The Sound of Music was "soul-rotting slush.Clean family edification? Nothing of the kind!"
http://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/November7-1997.htm

Actually, the letter is pretty hilarious.He is a complete loon. Maybe he and Father Greeley ( I really like Greeley) can do a theological version of "At the Movies."

[goforit]

48. Its about time Congress smacks this tyrrannical Pope down