Iraqi woman had 80 women raped to recruit suicide bombers

[Turborama]

Source: Herald Sun (Australia)

Correspondents in Baghdad | February 04, 2009 09:15am

A WOMAN suspected of recruiting more than 80 female suicide bombers has confessed to organising their rapes so she could later convince them that martyrdom was the only way to escape the shame.

Samira Jassam, 51, was arrested by Iraqi police and confessed to recruiting the women and orchestrating dozens of attacks.

In a video confession, she explained how she had mentally prepared the women for martyrdom operations, passed them on to terrorists who provided explosives, and then took the bombers to their targets.

"We arrested Samira Jassim, known as 'Um al-Mumenin', the mother of the believers, who was responsible for recruiting 80 women'', Major General Qassim Atta said.

"She confessed her responsibility for these actions, and she confirmed that 28 attempts had been made in one of the terrorists' strongholds,'' he said.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25006615-663,00.html

---

Arrest unveils Iraqi women suicide bombers - 'Mother' of network says she recruited troubled souls for killing missions

Source: AP

BAGHDAD - A woman accused of helping recruit dozens of female suicide bombers looked into the camera and described the process: trolling society for likely candidates and then patiently converting the women from troubled souls into deadly attackers.

The accounts, in a video released Tuesday by Iraq police, offer a rare glimpse into the networks used to find and train the women bombers who have become one of the insurgents' most effective weapons as they struggle under increasing crackdowns.

In a separate prison interview with The Associated Press, with interrogators nearby, the woman said she was part of a plot in which young women were raped and then sent to her for matronly advice. She said she would try to persuade the victims to become suicide bombers as their only escape from the shame and to reclaim their honor.

=snip=

...the suspect, 50-year-old Samira Ahmed Jassim — who said her code name was "The Mother of Believers" — has given unusual firsthand descriptions of the possible workings behind last year's spike in attacks by women bombers.

The Iraqi military spokesman, Maj. Gen. Qassim al-Moussawi, said the suspect had recruited more than 80 women willing to carry out attacks and admitted masterminding 28 bombings in different areas.

Read More: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29000504/



Video of this story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qY9VflIPU8

[Divine Discontent]

1. sick twisted woman. now we know why so many women suicide bombers are seen!

She has them raped to guilt them into seeking cleanliness by blowing people up! Gahhhh... how inhuman.

[roguevalley]

77. disgusting meat head is going to be damned surprised when she

passes over. count on it.

[dysfunctional press]

189. passes over what?

:shrug:

[Divine Discontent]

190. when her mortal coil stops functioning and what spirit we have,

which I'm using right now to seriously and thoughtfully think about what an amazing thing it must be when our bodies finally fail, comes out and goes wherever it goes. What an amazing thing we humans are. I can think about my dear brother in my head while I'm typing to you about the nastiness of this women to lie to women to become suicide bombers who murder dozens at a time, while listening to the discussion about the stimulus. We have the power to do such wonderful and compassionate things as human beings, we can be open minded and accepting, even in differences, or we can boldly hateful and narrow-minded, only looking out for ourselves.

I certainly want my passing over to the other side to be a joyful event, I pray for everyone to want to hope for that, too, as we're more than just the days or years we live on this planet.

[dysfunctional press]

192. i disagree strongly.

this life on this planet is ALL we get. the people who worry more about a non-existant and imaginary here-after than the very real here-and-now just fuck it up for everyone else.

thanks a lot.

[Divine Discontent]

193. aw, c'mon, don't be so miserable

you were itchin' to get a response from that DUer, it was obvious, you had your gun loaded and ready, which is immature and it was obvious. You wanted to go off with your anti-religious view - God doesn't tell people to harm others - people's wickedness and rage and judgment does. Having a hateful tone about the existence/non-existence of an after life, just shows you're only wanting to argue - and yes, you're welcome for the "thanks a lot", you wanted to unload. Same ol' tired schtick, different hater. You have every right to believe in nothing in the after life, I've defended that on this board a dozen times, but I won't be cursing at you like an angry petulant bully, God bless you.

[dysfunctional press]

197. the point still stands...

people who worry about the after-life more than their current life should just do everyone else a BIG favour, and move on to it asap.

[Divine Discontent]

203. you didn't make that 'point' before (telling people to just die if they believe in God)

and, I don't know about people you've met - but nearly everyone I know who believes in a "God" (different friends have different views) doesn't worry about the after-life with all their time - they live in the here and now and fight for others, their families, and enjoy the great things of joy that cost nothing - see, when we make peace with our God for our sins, we believe in the promises of forgiveness.

Now, go on encouraging people in your own family, and many other people you have met and fellow progressives to just die so you don't have to hear about God and continue to look incredibly small... it's your life, live it as coldly as you wish.

[dysfunctional press]

207. "...to just die so you don't have to hear about God"

i don't care if i hear about god- it's easy to ignore the blathering religoid idiots.
i just don't want a bunch of people who let their concern for an afterlife affect how they live their lives and choose their politics fucking it up for those of us who are just concerned with making this here and now the best it can possibly be.

if people are so excited about what awaits them after this life, and feel that it's more important than life here on earth- they should just get on with it already.

[Matariki]

191. Disgusting, if true. Unfortunately, 'confessions' in Iraq have become very suspect.

It's just sad, either way.

[krister]

2. Reading that story and then seeing her face is just eery....

..icky even.

[Turborama]

3. Yet another demon Bush unleashed when he opened Pandora's Box in Iraq... n/t

[krister]

10. One dead child is enough motivation for this sick behavior.

I'm sure that thousands of children have been killed in Irag amidst the explosions and flying bullets.
It is a sad reality that we are very lucky to have gone this long without another attack within our borders.

This woman is undoubtedly evil but I'm not sure that she'd be involved in anything like this if she wasn't surrounded by death.

[Igel]

42. Lots of mothers in the US have lost children.

Some to gang violence, some to drugs, some to work or traffic accidents.

So it would be ok for one of them to encourage raping other women so they'd feel so ashamed they'd go and kill members of groups "close enough" to gangs, drug dealing and manufacture, or cars.

Perhaps they could go and blow up a automobile assembly line, or go into a school with gang members' siblings and kill 30 kids if the mothers involved can't actually identity or take revenge on the guilty themselves.

You see, once you start justifying hate and violence against those not directly guilty, if only because you believe those of your own tribe are so wrong that you can't bare the shame, you wind up able to justify nearly anything. Including things that are even more shameful.

[krister]

124. "So it would be ok for one of them to encourage raping other women

so they'd feel so ashamed they'd go and kill members of groups "close enough" to gangs, drug dealing and manufacture, or cars."

You think that's ok? You must be sick.

[ima_sinnic]

151. it is understood that the poster is explaining it from the point of view of those women

who do the encouraging, not the poster him or herself.

[krister]

198. Um, yes, did you mean to reply to me?

I am the one considering the view of these women and the other poster accused me of justifying hate and violence. I then offered a sarcastic reply.

[jkappy]

47. yes.

[pork medley]

4. duhhhh, i believe everything i read.

this story sounds perfectly plausible and not like the sort of crazy shit someone would confess to due to being placed in a stressful situation such a police interrogation (democracy-style) or living in a warzone. duhhhh

[Why Syzygy]

5. Are you aware

that Muslim women who are raped are EXPECTED to commit suicide?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Thothmes]

19. Show me in the Koran or the Sharia where that is written.

[Why Syzygy]

29. I wouldn't know. But, it's a reality on the ground.

Do you dispute that? Would you like to read some news stories reporting about it?
One usual method is to drink poison.

[Thothmes]

99. It may be expected in some parts of the Islamic world. Certainly

in parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. It is not necessirily expected of Moslem women in places like Turkey, Bosnia, the Phillipines or in Western Europe.

[Why Syzygy]

106. Okay .. good point. What about Indonesia?

Certainly in the countries with large populations of those who favor Sharia law.

[Turborama]

109. Indonesia is a secular democracy.

Aceh is the only province in Indonesia allowed to apply Sharia law.

[Why Syzygy]

111. btw ..

Welcome to DU :hi: .. You need to get a donating Star!

[ohio2007]

226. Hillary is concerned about just that point

Aceh is the only province in Indonesia allowed to apply Sharia law.


http://hillaryclintonclub.com/newsupdate2/2009/02/clinton-expected-to-visit-japan-south.html


Afghannistan is also a secular democracy ....


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29049101/

so is Pakistan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idQxFYlEjIc&feature=channel

[Marrah_G]

34. It is more cultural then religious

And yes...raped women are considered useless in much of the world and in many places are killed or expected to kill themselves.

Religion is only used as an excuse to continue barbaric practices.

[Why Syzygy]

107. In the USA, they are simply shamed,

especially if they care to see justice.

[superconnected]

115. So true.

[JackRiddler]

53. Note how quickly some rush to associate this story (fabrication) with the religion.

They're animals, I tell you!

[Turborama]

59. Note how quickly people jump on this story and say "it can't be true, it just can't"

I'm not convinced it's a fabrication, convince me.

[JackRiddler]

61. You've got it the wrong way around.

The story doesn't convince me, so convince me.

[Turborama]

The thing is, I don't really care whether you believe it or not. The story is what the story is...

...if you have anything to disprove it, then I'll be happy to take a look and consider the counter arguments.

[Why Syzygy]

108. I would just appreciate someone pointing out

what is inconsistent or questionable. I have read plenty of horror stories of the fate of women in these places, and have no trouble believing it whatsoever. The evidence has been presented. The story. The DEFENSE is supposed to offer an argument if they want an alternate view considered.

[Turborama]

110. I totally agree...

...couldn't have put it better myself. I have also made an effort to show other news sources - including a couple of Arab ones - seeing as people weren't happy with the ones presented.

BTW Did you see the post describing my frame of reference? I didn't add that I've lived in Indonesia for 3 1/2 years, which does give somewhat of a different perspective.

I wonder how many of these people who are instantly calling this story bullshit are troofers and using that as their frame of reference...

[No Elephants]

147. Prove something--anything-- never happened? Not possible. That's why it's up to people to prove

things DID happen.

[Turborama]

152. If people are calling this story bullshit, the onus is on them to disprove it because...

...it is they who have a problem with the story.

Otherwise, the story stands.

[No Elephants]

155. No, it is not up to them. You are missing the point. Google "prove a negative."

[Turborama]

156. As I said before, I don't care whether they believe it or not.

However, if they want to go on and on about it being bullshit and this theory of "negative proof" is their only defence and they are happy with that, fine.


Personally, I think this kind of behaviour makes them look like they need to go shopping http://zapatopi.net/afdb/">here, but that's just my opinion.

[No Elephants]

159. Saying you don't care if they believe it is different from saying it is up to anyone to prove

a negative. No one ever has the burden (or onus) to prove a negative.

[Turborama]

161. You are consistantly missing my point. Google "Occam's Razor"

As I've asked numerous times, what would be the motive for the Iraqi police to concoct this convoluted conspiracy, if in fact that's what it is?

Surely, if anyone can come up with a good enough reason for the police to want to do this, their case would be more believable?

Just throwing the accusation "bullshit" up in the air and suggesting the police went to a great deal of trouble to create this 'conspiracy' without a motive is illogical, at best.

"No one ever has the burden (or onus) to prove a negative."
It's funny, seeing that phrase again brought back memories of late 2002 to March 2003 when I was campaigning against the invasion of Iraq on AOL chatrooms.

[No Elephants]

166. I love when people try to mimic me, but, if Occan's Razor means

that people should not question whether a story is true or not, then Occam's Razor is crap. It certainly is not a scientific law. But, if you are believer in Occam's Razor, why would you have been campaigning against the invasion of Iraq in 2002 and 2003? Wouldn't you have been assuming that nothing Bushco was saying about Iraq was true?

[Turborama]

169. Your cherry picking is getting tedious.

Who said Occam's razor means people shouldn't question whether a story is true or not? I'm using it in this one instance for a particular purpose.

By saying this you are taking it out of context of the rest of my post and totally ignoring the point I have been continuously making. Therefore, my statement of "You are consistantly missing my point" still stands.


"But, if you are believer in Occam's Razor, why would you have been campaigning against the invasion of Iraq in 2002 and 2003?"


Because I was living outside of America and wasn't being brainwashed by post 9/11 US main stream media. In fact, using Occam's Razor was quite easy on this one. The weapons inspectors didn't find any WMD, ergo there were no WMD.

Just to make sure you know what Occam's Razor means, here's a link to a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor">good definition of it.



Wouldn't you have been assuming that nothing Bushco was saying about Iraq was true?

Yes, in fact I hardly ever believed anything they said during the whole 8 years of their administration.

[JackRiddler]

194. Occam's Razor is one of the most abused ideas ever.

"Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily."

This is a methodological rule of thumb, not a law, and it comes at the beginning of one's exploration of a subject, not as a conclusion.

Practical meaning: In constructing a hypothesis to explain a set of facts, strive to minimize the number of unfounded suppositions to test.

Nothing in there about "choose what (you think) is most simple" or "go with the explanation that comforts your world view." Nothing in there about "omit facts that can't be measured in newton-meters." Citation of Occam's Razor has become one of the laziest and emptiest argumentative techniques, generally deployed on behalf of official stories.

Occam's rule of thumb is of particularly limited use in understanding human affairs. Governments lie as often as they tell the truth. Falling rocks can't issue press releases claiming that they are not falling, but over the past couple of years we just saw a lot of banker-gangsters do exactly that with regard to their rotten balance sheets. Falling rocks that kill people may have come loose, or they may have been given a push. Deception is a common and important element in human affairs, so it's beyond ridiculous to pretend scientific parsimony is the be-all of political understanding.

---

In this case, the empty slogan adds nothing to your question. One can imagine many reasons why the Iraqi "police" (assuming it's really their story and not the Interior Ministry's) would want to wrap up dozens of alleged suicide bombing cases as the work of a single demented woman and her brigade of rapists. And put a bow on it. What's the difference? Does speculating about police motives either way serve to make the basic story any more believable?

[Turborama]

201. See post 186, here's the permalink to save you searching around

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3722008&mesg_id=3725006


"One can imagine many reasons why"

If your 'bullshit radar' is so amazing, go on then, show us what made it go into action.

[JackRiddler]

208. Nothing there either...

One can imagine many reasons why the Iraqi "police" (assuming it's really their story and not the Interior Ministry's) would want to wrap up dozens of alleged suicide bombing cases as the work of a single demented woman and her brigade of rapists (still on the loose?). And put a bow on it. What's the difference? Does speculating about police motives either way serve to make the basic story any more believable?

[tabasco]

162. It's quite possible to prove a negative.

It seems to be a common myth that you can't "prove a negative."

I can prove that the Earth's atmosphere is not composed of methane.

I can prove that aluminum is not a magnetic metal.

[No Elephants]

163. Prove something never happened.

[The Stranger]

63. Note ow quickly people jump on this story and say "convince me it isn't true."

Give me a fucking break.

[Hannah Bell]

212. Because she's a crazed religious fanatic, she breaks islamic law so she can get women

to become suicide bombers, also in violation of islamic law.

and arab male religious fanatics in her evil network are just waiting for the chance to rape in the name of muhammed.

right, this sounds very plausible.

look at her sullen face. it must be true, she looks e-vil.

[The Stranger]

62. That doesn't escape the fact that this story sounds like utter bullshit.

[harun]

91. I second that call of BS

[bottomtheweaver]

116. Third.

Motion sustained.

[EFerrari]

6. The numbers are unbelievable. There's something wrong with this story. n/t

[ohio2007]

27. "The Mother of Believers" said believe it

is this the face of a liar ?



how about this one ;

[EFerrari]

75. I don't mean to cast asperagus on the OP or on this charming woman.

It will be interesting to see if there are any more developments.

[Turborama]

7. Have you seen the video?

If this is a conspiracy, what have the police got to gain from it?

[JackRiddler]

58. It is a conspiracy as the police describe it...

Please note that conspiracy means more than one person plotting to commit a criminal act. For example, the police are describing a conspiracy supposedly masterminded by this woman.

Thus the meaning of the word is not exclusively, as you seem to think, "allegations of police lies or official misconduct that I prefer to deny."

[Turborama]

220. WRONG!!

"Thus the meaning of the word is not exclusively, as you seem to think, "allegations of police lies or official misconduct that I prefer to deny.""

As I seem to think?

Where have I ever said in this thread that I am denying "allegations of police lies or official misconduct"?

I have only been asking you and all the other conspiracy theorists who have swarmed onto this story what motive the police would have to construct this extravagant lie - if that's what it is. You all seem so convinced it's bullshit but you haven't given one reason - even though you've said there must be multiple reasons - for the police to do this.

Listen son, if you can come up with a plausible scenario as to why this is all bullshit, I'll respect that and take it on board but saying something is bullshit because "it just is" doesn't cut it.

However, if you're happy with unravelling happyslug's confused thoughts in post #199 and settling that theorem down as something you agree with, that's fine too. It'll explain a lot to me about your reasoning.

[ohio2007]

229. But some hold these "truths" as self evident

disconnect makes life pretty and fashionable

[JackRiddler]

70. Yes & the video is a joke.

Can you speak Arabic? Not that she's shown speaking for more than 30 seconds here.

"Iraqi security chiefs claim..." and news show insinuates. Brief snippets of the woman speaking. No direct translation of what she is saying. Narration onlly. Cut to lots of archive footage of carnage from alleged suicide bombings by insurgents. (High emotional impact, low information content.) Narration relates to suicide bombing in general (mentioning a couple of incidents that are not tied to Ms. Yassim). Only one specific act allegedly masterminded by the woman is described, in vague fashion. One more brief snippet. The name of her supposed insurgent group is given, plus an "al-Qaeda" mention.

Two minutes total.

The superficiality of the coverage in itself is a strong indicator that they know it's bullshit.

[tkmorris]

86. Your bullshit detector is well designed

I wish everyone noticed and analyzed the little things as well as you do. The way this story is constructed does indeed suggest a lack of any hard facts that would support the claims made.

[JackRiddler]

92. kind of you - thanks

;)

[Turborama]

94. The Al Jazeera video in post 87 has a translated version of what she's saying n/t

[LostinVA]

17. My first thought, too

[geardaddy]

44. Exactly.

The Herald Sun is a NewsCorp rag.

[jkappy]

48. agree n/t

[JackRiddler]

54. Especially when it's in a right-wing Australian tabloid owned by Murdoch!

[Turborama]

57. The second article is from MSNBC n/t

[ronnie624]

67. Exactly the sort of sensationalist crap that MSNBC loves. n/t

[EFerrari]

83. I'm going to see if this is on Mosaic today or if al Jazeera covers it

and how.

The thing is, I could believe someone indoctrinating a few young women but this number is just beyond belief.

[Turborama]

84. Al Jazeera English: Iraq arrests 'bomber recruiter'

Iraqi security forces have arrested a 50-year-old woman accused of recruiting dozens of female suicide bombers.

In a video released by the security forces on Tuesday, Samira Ahmed Jassim described how she persuaded other women to become bombers, then escorted them to her contacts for training and finally led them to their targets.

Qassim al-Moussawi, an Iraqi security spokesman, said she was a member of the Ansar al-Sunnah group, which has suspected ties to al-Qaeda.

Jassim was nabbed at an undisclosed location two weeks ago.

"She confessed to training more than 28 female suicide bombers, all of whom conducted terrorist operations in different parts of Iraq," al-Moussawi said.

He said she had recruited more than 80 women from Baghdad and the northern province of Diyala for carrying out suicide attacks.

Full story: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/02/200923195547936438.html

-- ---- --

Al Jazeera free live 24/7 streaming: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

And a better quality stream that is also free, here: http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al_jazeera_english

(The Queen of Jordan is on Riz Khan right now)

[EFerrari]

85. Thank you!

:)

[Turborama]

87. You're welcome, here's the Al Jazeera video of the story too...

Iraqi woman held for recruiting bombers - 4 Feb 09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRxFhjFKC-Q

BTW, very good show on AJ English now with the Queen of Jordan discussing Gaza with callers and Riz Khan... ;-)

[EFerrari]

89. I love that woman. I'm trying to watch "Mosaic" right now.

:hi:

[Why Syzygy]

129. What IS a bit confusing

are the two numbers, 28 and 80. What you post here clarifies.
Twenty-eight "suicide bombers", more than 80 recruitments.

[Turborama]

103. Here's another Arab news source, .alarab online: "Iraqi woman recruited 80 suicide female bombers"

Iraqi police have arrested a woman who has confessed to recruiting more than 80 female suicide bombers and who helped orchestrate dozens of attacks, a senior officer said on Tuesday.

Samira Jassim, 51, admitted that she had mentally prepared the women, passed them on to militants who provided explosives and then took them to their targets.

"We arrested Samira Jassim, known as 'Um al-Mumenin,' the mother of the believers, who was responsible for recruiting 80 women" suicide bombers, Major General Qassim Atta told reporters in Baghdad.

"She confessed her responsibility for these actions and she confirmed that 28 attempts had been made," Atta said, without elaborating.

Jassim was arrested on January 21.

Reporters were shown a video of Jassim's confession. Dressed in a traditional black abaya, she explained how she had prepared the women for suicide before sending them for training at militant bases.

Two of the attacks admitted to by Jassim in the video took place in central Iraq's Diyala province, which is considered one of the most dangerous areas of the country.

Al-Qaeda and various militant groups still manage to launch attacks in Diyala despite a general decrease in violence elsewhere.

In the video, Jassim said she had met a man named Shaker Hamud Malek from Ansar al-Sunna. He proposed that she go to Baghdad with him to bring back to Diyala remote control devices capable of being used to trigger explosions.

She also met another man who asked her to recruit women for the bombings.

"The first one's name was Um Hoda," Jassim said. "I sent her to the orchard (where the militants were hiding) for training and the code was Um al-Mumemin."

After a few days the woman was sufficiently convinced to become a suicide bomber.

"She exploded herself against a police station in Mukdadiyah," a city of 250,000 people, located 100 kilometres (62 miles) northeast of Baghdad, Jassim said.

Another attacker, named Saadiya Khalaf, was described by Jassim as a "spinster, who was quite an age".

"I put her in front of the bus stop in Mukdadiyah where she blew herself up," Jassim said in the video.

From: http://www.alarabonline.org/english/display.asp?fname=2009\02\02-04\zsubz\911.htm">Alarab Online

[Turborama]

105. Times (UK): "Al-Qaeda damaged by arrest of 'rape and suicide bomb' woman"

Deborah Haynes in Baghdad

The arrest of a woman suspected of grooming rape victims to become female suicide bombers in Iraq has dealt a blow to the network of extremists that orchestrates such attacks, a senior Iraqi official said yesterday.

Samira Ahmed Jassim, 51, is accused of recruiting more than 80 women to become human bombs, including 28 who actually carried out attacks.

She has apparently confessed to helping to organise the rape of young Iraqi women.

She would then play on the shame associated with victims of rape in Iraqi society to convince the women to become suicide bombers as their only means of escape.

Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article5661466.ece

[bottomtheweaver]

118. A US-backed general gave a press conference and showed a video.

They're reporting it. It doesn't add any additional credibility to the story.

[Turborama]

125. There was a criticism earlier about whatever the woman said wasn't translated. In that video it was.

It was also broadcast by an Arabic television station who are usually one of the most critical TV stations of US foreign policy, as you must surely know.

I do know, I have it on satellite and it's one of my main news sources. Al Jazeera English is more credible, in this respect, than most other MSM TV stations.

[ronnie624]

146. I don't mean to imply that the basic facts are not true.

This sort of extremism is to be expected when a country is invaded, destroyed and plundered, and all of civil society laid waste. In the grand scheme of death and chaos in Iraq during the last six years, the activities of this woman are but a few drops in a rain storm.

Whether this is true or not, many will use it in an attempt to manufacture fear and hatred for all Muslims, as can be seen on this very thread.

[Turborama]

153. Retraction accepted, and agree with most of your post apart from...

I wouldn't say there are 'many' on this thread who are using it to manufacture fear and hatred for all Muslims.

This could just be semantics, though, as even 1 is too many...

[Corey]

8. Gitmo OK's raping boys...

Is this any different than the US military raping children at Gitmo, and being the largest terrorist organization on the face of the earth and of all time?

[Turborama]

9. "the US military raping children at Gitmo"... what?

[TNOE]

55. Sy Hersh reported years ago

and the videos have never been released to the public, although viewed by some congress critters.

[FedUpWithIt All]

82. Supposedly, there are videos. It is related to the videos the government refuses to release. LINKS

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/07/15/hersh/

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/20203prs20050722.html

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/ACLU_Pentagon_concedes_Abu_Ghraib_photo_0328.html

[Turborama]

88. Thanks for the links but those stories are about Abu Ghraib, not Gitmo....

[FedUpWithIt All]

90. I believe this may be what the poster was speaking about.

[Le Taz Hot]

16. When did two wrongs EVER

make a right? The Bush administration is GONE. There's a new sheriff in town and he's closing down Gitmo. There's NOTHING that justifies what the U.S. has done in it's unholy war with Iraq; however, justifying the SAME behavior with the excuse "but, you did it!" is incomprehensible.

There were MILLIONS of us who took to the streets, wrote and called our Representatives and did everything humanly possible to stop the U.S. involvement with Iraq. I don't see a whole lot of Iraqis in the street protesting the brutality perpetuated against these women.

[Marrah_G]

33. Corey- they are both wrong

Trying to defend such atrocities is fucking pathetic.

[ronnie624]

68. No one was defending it,

but instead, pointing out the hypocrisy of finger pointers.

[AsahinaKimi]

11. lovely woman... :P

This is what her religion teaches her to do? O.o
I am just..without words here.

[LanternWaste]

49. I think it's less what her...

I think it's less what her religion teacher her to do, and more what people have taught her to do...

[truthisfreedom]

12. If true, this will create a sea-change.

Islam is in for a new look at its foundation.

[maxsolomon]

50. i doubt it

i see no wave of reform in islam - only regression.

[dcindian]

14. This is the evil of organized religion

There are two religions at war they will use any tool available to themselves to force their sick and twisted set of mores on the other.


Edited to add.


I want someone to explain to me how that murderer Bush use of religion is any different!

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Evil. This is evil.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

60. Because you said so.

:eyes:

Not everything is :tinfoilhat:!

[bottomtheweaver]

64. I have it on the highest authority that this story is 100% absolutely true and verified.

[Behind the Aegis]

113. And even if you did, mean you watched it happen...

...you would still don your :tinfoilhat:.

[bottomtheweaver]

117. I did watch it happen, and I knew he was lying.

And I didn't need a :tinfoilhat:.

[Behind the Aegis]

133. Sounds like the tinfoil is a might too tight.,

How do you know he is lying?

[bottomtheweaver]

141. He's admitted it for one thing.

But I'd heard Blix's report and it supported all the other UN reports that had been coming out of Iraq for years. It was pretty obvious to most including Powell, who clearly didn't want to be there.

[Behind the Aegis]

142. Whoa, whoa, what are **you** talking about?

I was talking about the OP. Was there a subject change?

[bottomtheweaver]

144. Chortle.

Don't tell me you don't recognize this photo either?



No wonder you're having trouble keeping up!

[Behind the Aegis]

148. Oh so because he lied all things like this are a lie?

Great "logic" on your part. :eyes:

Again, UNWRAP the :tinfoilhat:!

[The Stranger]

102. No, it's not "evil." The story is simply bullshit.

There is a big difference.

[Behind the Aegis]

132. Prove it is bullshit.

The onus is on YOU.

[Turborama]

143. I second that.

If they are arguing so strongly that this is whole story is a fabrication, the onus is on them to prove it. Otherwise we can just continue considering their argument as a total failure...

[The Stranger]

183. Issuing a "second" for a bullshit story doesn't do anything.

And continuing to parrot it is ridiculous.

[Turborama]

186. I'm not issuing a 2nd for a 'bullshit' story, you need to back up your squeals of 'bullshit' or stfu

I'll repeat in case you missed it...

As I've asked numerous times, what would be the motive for the Iraqi police to concoct this convoluted conspiracy, if in fact that's what it is?

Surely, if anyone can come up with a good enough reason for the police to want to do this, their case would be more believable?

Just throwing the accusation "bullshit" up in the air and suggesting the police went to a great deal of trouble to create this 'conspiracy' without a motive is illogical, at best.

[ohio2007]

225. < crickets >

sidetracked dissonance is what you'll get as rebuttal

;)

[Judi Lynn]

18. I'm still so shaken from learning the Iraqii soldiers took those poor babies from the incubators.

Thought I'd never recover from that revelation.

Thank god for heroic people like Jessica Lynch who fought for her life with broken bones after being brutalized, fighting until she fired the last bullet in her gun against the Iraqii renegades fighting back against the invasion.

We're so fortunate we can depend upon our fine news media to keep us informed about what a beating our country is taking from those little countries.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Thank G-d you have recovered!

We are so fortunate we live in a world where people would not resort to any action, no matter how evil, to combat something they felt was wrong. I mean, who would ever believe someone would try to recruit forces to attack an invading force?! Who would ever think they could stoop to such a level in order to control their subjects?

Thank goodness we live in a world of unicorns, fluffy clouds of cotton candy, and rainbow farts!

:eyes:

[davidinalameda]

145. don't encourage them

you'll end up beating your head against the desk because of their stupidity

[Hannah Bell]

217. they didn't believe that bullshit they were hurtling for one minute.

furthermore, you know they didn't.

[pork medley]

131. ...

[Turborama]

20. To all those who are saying this is a bullshit story

What would the Iraqi police have to gain by forcing her to say all this stuff? I'm genuinely curious.

Of course, I'm no idiot and do not believe everything I read, see or hear coming out of the media but why is this story so hard for you to believe? They used http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22945797"> two female down's syndrome suicide bombers this time last year so why is this too much of a stretch? Unless that was a conspiracy too...

[treestar]

38. Makes good propaganda for the Muslim-haters

And in Iraq, the theocracy wasn't there. This story could be more believable if it were under the Taliban.

[Turborama]

43. Yeah, ok, that would be true if we knew how the underground resistance is run.

But we don't.

For all we know it could be a Taliban-esque operation and misogynistic/psychotic behaviour like this may be considered normal to them and this woman was just the 'madam' carrying out their orders.

Pre 9/11 and the subsequent invasion, I saw a fascinating documentary called http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3660316316539768169&hl=en/">Beneath the Veil (warning, this is very graphic) in which a British reporter went under cover in Afghanistan and she found out about these women who had been punished by being skinned alive. (Immediately after watching this, I was totally freaked and thought someone needed to invade that country and sort that shit out)

Women are smuggled from Eastern Europe to countries such as Britain under the guise of having a legitimate job waiting for them. What actually happens on arrival is that they are gang raped into submission and locked up in a house as sex slaves for a growing prostitution business.

Rape is currently used as a weapon of war across Africa and previously in the Balkan wars including most recently Kosovo.

What I'm trying to say is, using stories such as the ones I mention above as a frame of reference, I wouldn't be surprised if this story was true.

[Hannah Bell]

213. And who's running these wars? And who's funding them?

[Turborama]

214. What's that got to do with anything I said in that post? Just curious.

[Dorian Gray]

22. The face of evil

[ohio2007]

23. "martyrdom was the only way to escape the shame." ( religious caveat )

[Marrah_G]

32. It's more cultural then religious

There is still a large chunk of humanity that believes a raped woman is unclean and untouchable.

[XemaSab]

24. This reeks of bullshit

:(

[Belial]

25. Yes.. it reeks.. if you have no concept of the culture there..

[XemaSab]

26. I have a concept of the culture there

If it was a handful of women, I might buy it, but something about this sounds very fishy to me.

[Why Syzygy]

31. Where's the fishy?

:shrug: Would you mind pointing that out for some of the rest of us?

[bottomtheweaver]

65. Right here:

[Why Syzygy]

134. :shrug: That tells me nothing. Why is it so hard to spell out what some

of you are implying? I'm no mind reader.

[bottomtheweaver]

135. It tells you nothing because you believe what you want to believe. n/t

[Why Syzygy]

137. It tells me nothing because you are playing a guessing game.

I've tried guessing your meaning. I give up.

[Turborama]

138. No really, it doesn't tell anyone anything, it's just a picture of Colin Powell.

Nothing to do with what anyone "believes" or not, it's just a random totally out of context picture of some guy from several years ago who's got nothing to do with Iraq anymore.

[Turborama]

140. Also, how do you know this is the "something sounds very fishy" XemaSab was talking about? n/t

[treestar]

39. On the contrary the culture there is milder than the rightwing would

have us belief. Extremes in Muslim theocracy are at their most extreme in the Taliban and Saudi Arabia. Iraq and Iran not so much. Just because a country has a lot of Muslims in it does not mean they are all crazed and suicidal. That's the assumption that Americans have had.

[bottomtheweaver]

28. I'll be she could tell us what happened to Saddam's WMD

and his mobile germ warfare labs too. Oh those evil Iraqis, will they ever stop hating us for just trying to help them? :cry:

[Marrah_G]

30. What a sick fucking bitch

[bemildred]

35. Why you could just knock me over with an unplugged baby incubator.

The hyena running-dogs of capitalism terrorism confess all their heinous crimes against the revolution democracy in Iraq.

[leftynyc]

69. Are you saying that rape victims

are free to report what happened, that their families will welcome them home with open arms, that their brothers, fathers and husbands will treat them as the victims they are. Perhaps all the stuff about honor killings is bullshit also.

[bemildred]

72. Can you read? What I said is right there. nt

[leftynyc]

160. I can read fine

That you think this couldn't possibly be true rings.....naive is the softest word I can think of.

[bemildred]

164. You're still not reading, I didn't say that.

I think it's being used for propaganda. Propaganda is not necessarily false. Distortion and exaggeration work just fine. You really need to learn the difference between the ugly crap in your head and what other people say.

[leftynyc]

168. So we're to ignore

the bad stuff because it "may" be used as propoganda? Don't speak out against this wretched woman because someone may have something to say about it. That's a pretty pathetic attitude and ignores what could very well be a widespread problem.

[bemildred]

171. Straw man. I'm ignoring nothing.

It perfectly reasonable to speak about those aspects of a situation or story that concern you. There is no requirement to write an encyclopedia article every time you post. You certainly did not say anything about the propaganda aspects of this story. Have I attempted to bludgeon you over that? There are plenty of people who will indulge in emotional blathering about whatever it is that gets posted, like you, there is no need for me to do it too.

[Hannah Bell]

219. phoenix program

[LostinVA]

101. Yeah, it reminds me of the incubator story, too

[NashVegas]

184. And Me. Knock Me Over, Too

from the Al Jazeera story:

"source: agencies"

[Beacool]

36. Sick and evil woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If there was ever a case of an eye for an eye.........

:grr:

[anonymous171]

37. Disgusting. The ME is full of crazies like this,

we should withdraw from that area and let them return to killing eachother.

[The Stranger]

78. Nice -- if this was intended to demonize the Other and foment hate . . .

. . . well then it sure seems to be accomplishing its purposes.

[snooper2]

40. Evil Nasty Woman....

I don't believe in stoning-

But she does deserve a quick death

[marshall]

41. Where did she get the men for the job?

Is that also a recruitment tool to lure would-be terrorists? Come and join the forces of Al Qaeda and rape all the virgins you can handle!

[ensho]

45. I was wondering the same thing - will the rapers be arrested too?

nt

[gabby garcia]

93. why would they be?

in the end isn't it really the woman's fault?

:sarcasm:

[slackmaster]

46. The Religion Of Peace, taken to extreme zealotry, is as bad as any other religion

Zealots suck.

[INDIA]

56. AS bad????

:eyes:

[PurityOfEssence]

66. Agreed. I think we can safely say that Islam sucks more than most other major delusions

Fuck political correctness on this one: Islam is REALLY bad. It's based on complete subjugation and a self-proclaimed right to dominate. All religions are package deals, but some of the nastier items in this package are simply far too useable for the malevolent.

Christianity, for all it's faults, at least has a concept of secular law in tandem to religious authority, and it's irritating prosetelyzing pales in comparison.

Once again, ugliness gets away with all sorts of things due to the sick blank check of religion somehow being "good"; if this woman was doing this simply for political or financial gain, she'd meet a far uglier--and justified--fate than the one she'll meet due to her somehow having acted out of the precepts of sweet, joyous godliness.

Religion may not be what finally brings us all down, but it'll at least be the grease on the skids.

[Sultana]

121. Great post

:thumbsup:

[slackmaster]

76. I'm trying to be diplomatic

Posts that tell the truth about Islam tend to get labelled as bigotry and deleted.

[merh]

52. was she an insurgent, a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

[Marrah_G]

71. Who knows? If she did this she is a monster.

[merh]

73. most definitely

but we are the bigger monster - we created the environment, we gave her a cause - who knows what pushed her over the edge - she may well believe she was doing to monsters what had been done to her.

[Marrah_G]

74. I am not a bigger monster.

I know what you mean, but I will never take responsibility for what Bushco did.

That is their own karma to repay, not mine.

One can always find reason why someone turns out to be a monster.

The base predisposition needs to be there though.

Even serial killers have their own reasons to rationalize their behavior.

This woman is a monster.

What she did is so horrifying I, as a woman, could not even wish her to suffer the same fate.

Death would be kinder.

[merh]

80. "we" as the US of A

and you have no clue what you would do if your family was destroyed, if your life shattered - humans are frail and snap, the same evil you wish upon her, the same death, she wished upon others - in the end, wishing death on others is the evil - different means to the end doesn't alter the end.

and for what it is worth, who knows what she has been subjected to that caused her to confess - that is why torture is bad, you never know if the confession is true.

[Marrah_G]

97. I do know that I would never sentence another woman to what she did to dozens.

I am quite confident in that.

What she did was the act of one woman, choosing to sentence many many women to shame, pain, humiliation and then death.\

No one forced her. She CHOSE to do it.

Yes, she is a monster. I have no sympathy for her.

I have sympathy for the lives she destroyed.

I have sympathy for the lives Bushco destroyed.

[merh]

100. Again, you are believing the "confession" without knowing the

background of the confessor and/or what was done to the confessor to cause the confession.

What if she was one of the mother's at Abu G that watched as their child was raped?

What if she were raped by those she decided to destroy?

I'm not condoning her crimes, if she did commit them. I am just pointing out that you don't know everything you need to know to be qualified to pass judgment. Also, wishing death on those that kill is putting yourself on their level.

[Marrah_G]

157. I didn't wish death on her.

Not sure where you saw that.

And well, I hope to never see you commenting on any story you are not intimately and personally involved in, because, well, you don't know if they are true and who are you to have an opinion.

[merh]

167. from your posts

This woman is a monster.

What she did is so horrifying I, as a woman, could not even wish her to suffer the same fate.

Death would be kinder.

You assume that the confession was freely and voluntarily given and there was no coercion or punishment or abuse - this by the Iraqi police that beat the shoe thrower so badly that he was hospitalized, you believe the propaganda without question and you condemn without full knowledge, that is what I challenge. I justify nothing, not her alleged crimes or the possible crimes of her captors - or the crimes of those she allegedly fought against.

[Marrah_G]

170. You read that incorrectly- I did not wish death upon her

What I said was that I could not even wish to have her suffer what she inflicted on others, because that would be a fate worse then even death.

You somehow read that as my seeking her death.

I think she should be locked away where she cannot hurt any more women and children.

Again- I hope I NEVER see you give an opinion on anything you do not have personal and intimate knowledge of because if you do you are simply believing what others tell you.

:eyes:

[merh]

172. You believe what the media is telling you about a woman

arrested by the Iraqi police, that alone should cause you to question the conclusions you make.

That I say if she did what she did she is not the only monster and I cannot condemn as you condemn without full understanding of her life, that does not mean I condone her alleged acts, it means I understand life is not as simple as you appear to believe. To understand does not equate to justification or any attempt to condone, despite how you try to twist things.

[Marrah_G]

173. I'm done

This conversation is going in a big circle to nowhere.

We both look at things from a very different viewpoint.

[merh]

174. That is obvious

I look at it from a place of understanding, you look at it from the position of judging - judgment without understanding equals all that is wrong with society today.

[Marrah_G]

175. I tried to not be insulting towards you and to end this on a polite note

You are incapable of doing that.

I wish you well.

I won't be responding to you again.

[merh]

176. You never tried to not be insulting

you began with insults and have yet to realize how false the premise you rely on truly is. As to not responding, you said that a post ago.

[Why Syzygy]

136. I don't know any women who would justify RAPE as punishment. nt

[merh]

165. I've justified nothing

I've opposed the other poster that damned the woman to death and that believes the "news" and the "confession" without knowing more. Suggesting understanding and noting that ultimately the war we started caused this is not justifying a thing. You need to learn how to read to understand as opposed to read to judge and jump to faulty conclusions.

[pork medley]

95. "I will never take responsibility for what Bushco did"

You see, this is why US power carries no currency anymore, anywhere, except maybe among a few of your dying, decrepit puppet leaders.

[Marrah_G]

96. If you choose to saddle yourself with unearned guilt, go right ahead.

I campaigned against, marched against, Buchco's horrific policies. Short of killing him, my options as a working class mom in stopping the war are rather limited.

[pork medley]

98. If you choose to try to distance yourself from the crimes and excesses

of the country you live and work in and are a loyal citizen of, don't be surprised if nobody gives a shit

[Marrah_G]

158. Have fun drowning in your unearned guilt.

I don't choose to live that way. I have enough stresses in my life without telling myself I am a mass murderer because of something the government does.

I campaign, I march for things I feel are right, I speak out as much as I can.

YOU carry Bush's guilt for him if you want to, but I left unearned guilt behind when I left the Catholic church as a teenager.

[ronnie624]

177. U.S. imperialism precedes the Bush administration by a couple of centuries.

It will continue under the Obama administration and for many years thereafter because too many Americans refuse to accept responsibility.

Collectively, we are all guilty.

[question everything]

79. Culture of death

When society praise "martyrdom" recruiting is not that hard.

When will we ever realize this, instead of, like Jimmy Carter, "explain" this as necessary to "win"?

[JackRiddler]

195. Nice -- gratuitous attack on Jimmy Carter...

demonstrating the uses of this kind of propaganda. Those Muslims, they're animals. Luckily there are good guys in the ME -- and Jimmy Carter is for the bad guys?

[Hannah Bell]

216. ironic you're outraged about arabs, since the US not only invaded & occupied iraq

for no reason, it's also been funding muslim fundamentalists since at least the 40s.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. Yeah, right.

And I'm a monkey's uncle.

[merh]

104. the shoe thrower was beaten and hospitalized by tihe iraqi police

It is quite possible that they did horrific things to this woman to get this "confession".

[Why Syzygy]

112. The denial and disbelief in this thread are stunning.

The only alternative offered is the possibility of torture. If she were tortured, I don't think she would be in such good health.

[bottomtheweaver]

114. Oh come on. If it's outrageous, insulting, and convenient to Halliburton

and the rest of the MIC, you know it's a big fat lie. Where have you been the last 45 years?

[Turborama]

119. Soooo, this is something that was cooked up by the Military Industrial Complex?

OK, I'll play.

Why would they want to do that? What's the reason for this conspiracy?

[bottomtheweaver]

120. Hmmm... maybe.. just maybe.. so they can suck down a few more hundred billion this year?

Ya know, that cash that disappears into the ether at a rate of several billion bucks a day, depending on whose dishonest accounting you're looking at? Just a guess. :shrug:

[Turborama]

122. And how, exactly, does making this woman play along with this 'fabrication' help them...

..."suck down a few more hundred billion"?

[bottomtheweaver]

123. Let's just say it works. n/t

[Turborama]

127. Fail. n/t

[Why Syzygy]

139. So, Haliburton came up with this story? Is that it?

It increases their soda sales? Distracts from their electrocutions? This doesn't advance the cause of war, ime.

[woo me with science]

128. A certain concrete-thinking contingent here has real trouble accepting

that anyone other than Bushco can demonstrate evil....ESPECIALLY if that someone has any ties to anyone who has ever opposed or fought Bushco in any way.

It is too much complexity for them. Their little heads begin to spin and smoke.

You can also see a very similar phenomenon when a US crime story or controversy is posted here, but the main actors are not immediately identified as Democrats or Republicans. A small group of DU-ers have no idea what they think about the incident until they see the party affiliation of those involved.

[Turborama]

130. Very interesting, thanks for the insight.

It'd be interesting to find out how many of this contingent are also troofers.

[LostinVA]

179. Oh, I think many people are evil, I just don't totally believe this story

[woo me with science]

181. Why not?

What is unbelievable about it?

[LostinVA]

185. Incubator Story Redux

[Turborama]

187. Is that it?

Extremely vague assertion that this is somehow similar to something that happened 18 years or so ago to help justify the invasion of Kuwait?

So what are they going to use this story to justify?

[Hannah Bell]

218. For one thing, the ratio of actual female suicide bombers to the high level of

"recruitment".

For another, the assumption everyone's making that in iraq, rape is shameful enough that the standard wish is death.

Being as iraq, at least prior to the barbarian invasion, was one of the most liberal/least fundie/more westernized countries in the middle east - a lot of very educated, modern-thinking folk there.

I don't believe it. I don't believe the rape story, & i don't believe so many women would respond to rape by deciding to become suicide bombers, & i don't believe so many of their families would want them to either.

[Turborama]

228. Thank-you! Good to hear a clearly put reason against believeing the rape part of the story...

You make some good points that certainly raise some important questions.

However, if you look http://www.google.com/search?q=rape+as+a+weapon+of+war&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8">here you'll see that this isn't as black and white as it may 1st appear.

Personally. I don't 'believe' this story one way or the other and probably won't until a proper trial is held and witnesses and evidence are put forward in a court of law (even then it depends on whether this court can be trusted). For me, it's still an open case...

[ronnie624]

182. The mechanisms behind the dissemination of propaganda are very complex,

and much of it is not planned and deliberate. The framing of political debate in any country is practically automatic. There are many good books on the subject. You might start with Noam Chomsky's Propaganda and the Public Mind. It is a very insightful read.

[excess_3]

126. tribalism is the problem ... Islam (which means 'submission') ...

is not helpful

[No Elephants]

149. Islam means "submission," as in "surrender to God." What is your point?

[No Elephants]

150. After reading this entire thread, I conclude that this story may or may not be true. What is

disturbing is the unexamined assumption that, if true, this story says something about Islam, as opposed to saying something about this woman. If this story is true, I doubt that it tells us even what all Iraqi terrorists are like. Jeffrey Dahmer said nothing about Christianity or all Christians or or about all white people or about all white Americans raised by Christians. The same is true of this woman and Muslims.

Also disturbing is the assumption that, if false, this story says something about the government of the United States, as opposed to something about the people who concocted this story, or those, if any, who ordered them to concoct this story. If I truly believed that this story, if false, told me what my entire government was like, I would have to leave this country, even if I hed to end up on some uninhabited island somewhere.

[Why Syzygy]

178. You've got it backwards.

Islam (Sharia) informs the story, not the other way 'round. If women were not expected to die after rape, it would be a lot harder to believe.

[JackRiddler]

196. Yes.

[eridani]

154. So, what did they do to her before she "confessed"? n/t

[LostinVA]

180. I'd like to know that, too

And also what her mental health state is.

Since the "incubator" story, I don't take anything like this at face value.

[ohio2007]

188. al Jazeera has the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRxFhjFKC-Q&eurl=



http://culture11.com/blogs/ladyblog/2009/02/05/monsters/&feature=player_embedded

[eridani]

206. So what happened to her before the video was made? n/t

[ohio2007]

209. She was a 'head hunter' for a local grass roots organization before the video was made

Why is it they never release the suicide bombers last video recordings ? well, the msm refuses to cover the screeds which is showing a certain bias.

[eridani]

221. She "confessed" to being such a headhunter

Why would anyone believe a taped confession? Maybe I'm not understanding here, but is there video (or even audio) evidence of her actually doing the sales pitch to one of her victims? That would be direct evidence. If not, then a taped confession is bullshit, pretty much along the lines of anything that Jose Padilla "confessed" to. What was done to her before that "confession" tape was made?

Rember Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? With even more torture, he might very well have admitted to the JFK assassination, the Lindbergh kidnapping, and being the father of Anna Nicole Smith’s baby. Our professional inquisitors are doubtless also hoping to learn of his possible involvement in the killings of Albus Dumbledore and Jon Benet Ramsey, faking crop circles and putting the Ram in the Ramalamadingdong, providing he doesn't run out of fingernails and they don't run out of batteries for the cattle prods. Oh, and he killed Kenny! That bastard!

Iraq's inquisitors are probably worse than ours.

[ohio2007]

222. denial is what you seek.

if the burqa don't fit



you must aquit

[eridani]

224. I want evidence

Taped onfessions obtained under torture are not evidence. If you know that she was not tortured, state how you know that. If there is a tape of some aspect of her operation that would be direct evidence. If there is one, let's see the URL.

The people who are in denial are the ones that believe Padilla was building a dirty bomb.

[ohio2007]

227. you have to go further back

the peple in denial say the WTC was an "inside job"
http://americanhistory.about.com/library/fastfacts/blffterrorism8.htm

Taped onfessions obtained under torture are not evidence. If you know that she was not tortured, state how you know that.

the blindman speaks but


http://www.echonyc.com/~pdr/rahman.html
why won't you listen to him ?

[eridani]

234. Evidence obtained under torture is not evidence, period n/t

[happyslug]

199. there is something wrong with this story

First, why would you recruit a rape victim? Have you ever see one? They are a wreck. Useless do to the nature of the assault (Sorry about sounding harsh, and I am truly regret what happen to these women BUT I am trying to see what is false in this story NOT the affect on the victim of the rape).

Second, one of the problem we have had in Iraq is that the norm in Iraq is to marry your cousin (This is the norm in most of the world, except areas where the middle age Christian doctrine forbidding such marriage took hold, which is basically most of the Christian areas of the world). Thus if you are raping women, you have raping women you come in contact with and most of such women will be your relatives AND potential mates. Rapes occurs is these countries but to use it as a recruiting tool is a little far fetch given the above.

Third, while this women may very while have recruited these women, the rape charge may have been added to spice up the story by the police (And help "explain" the use of women in such attacks, when it is the norm for women, in that society, NOT to participate in such attacks, through it should be noted women have participated in combat with Moslem Armies since the time of Mohammad himself). As to the police adding rape to the story, what seems to have been happening over the last few years has been more and more women being used to carry explosives, given that Iraqi male police are reluctant to do a body search on such women. This has permitted women to transport weapons and explosives which has lead to increase searching of women (Which where the "rape" charges may have started i.e. a search by a male for weapons or explosives and the women objected to it BUT it was clearly NOT rape but still improper).

Four, When the Sunnis were fighting the Americans, we hear of no such stories, but now that the Sunnis are fighting with the Americans this story comes out, and against a former ally of the Sunni Al Queda.

Five. While is often heard that women are raped and then killed by their relatives in an honor killing, the story Mary and the birth of Jesus is in the Koran as while as the Bible (Joseph is NOT in the Koran). In the Biblical Story Joseph found Mary "with child" which meant she had either been rape or had sex with another man. Even in the Bible it is started Joseph had the RIGHT to have Mary stoned to death, but he had decided to divorce her quietly instead (and an angel came in a dream to tell him to do neither, but to take Mary to Bethlehem and then to Egypt).

6. Rape is NOT a crime of sex, but the use of sex as a way to attack women. Most rapist do NOT even ejaculates doing the rape. The rapist's objective is achieved by just penetrating her. This is NOT how most men prefer to have their sex (Rape is NEVER about sex, it is an attack on woman. Men quickly find out they best sex is when the woman tell them what to do (The woman smiling and moaning in happiness turns most men on). You do NOT get that in rape. Rape is NOT a man having sex with a woman against her will, but an attack on her using his penis as a WEAPON not a sexual device. Given this background who would trust a man who commits a rape? Most men do not, most men want to kill such rapists (Women tend to be a little more lenient, thus most Lawyers try to get all female juries on rape cases, then attack the woman as enticing the man, men tend to reject this doctrine, women tend to embrace it). Anyway, this goes to the story she had these women rape first. Who would do it for her? Why would you trust someone who is willing to rape? Most men don't and women want someone they can relate to, someone who can take care of their women, which a rapist can NOT. Most women my buy the argument that a woman enticed a man to rape her, most women will NOT accept a man who raped another woman just to rape her, that is to close to home (What prevents him from doing that to her?).

7. Bin Laden is a progressive for a Arab from Saudi Arabia. He and his brothers wanted to do multiple marriages "Right" unlike their father who had more then four wives at a time. Bin Laden thus only had four wives at any one time AND THOSE THAT HE DIVORCED HE GAVE AMBLE SETTLEMENTS TO. In fact when 9/11 occurred he called his wives in and told them he would grant ANY of them a divorce if they did NOT think they would go with him into hiding and the subsequent fighting. Two of this them four wives took him up on his offer, leaving him. These two left him, but he paid them a very good settlement. This may sound unfair to out ears, but he is from Saudi Arabia where wives can NOT divorce their Husbands but the Husbands can divorce their wives. He furthermore had the political connections to cut off the wives from any and all financial support if they left him. He did not. Furthermore just before 9/11 he called a wife of his father (Not his own mother, another of his father's wives) and told her something was up and he will NOT be able to talk to her for a while. Bid Laden had high respect for this woman and often called her for advice prior to 9/11 (Thus the CIA had her phone tapped and why we know of the Conversation). I bring her up for he has had a good reputation, for a person from Saudi Arabia, for having a very pro-woman attitude. Thus I can NOT see him associating with anyone who would tolerate such activities as rape. His own women are well educated, he respects the Taliban ban on Schools, more from an acceptance that he is a guest among them then approval. I bring this up to show I doubt he would accept rape in his "Homeland" of Arabia, he seems to have accepted violence against women in Afghanistan (Where the push had been attacks on women for attending SCHOOLS NOT rapes), but they he is an honored quest NOT the ruling elite. I bring this up for Rape seems to big an attack on women for Bin Laden to tolerate by his organization. It is NOT done in Afghanistan (Woman have been attacked by NOT raped) so why would he accept it by his own forces in Iraq?

Koran book on Mary (Or Mariam, which was the name she went by, Mary is the Roman version of her name, a name made permanent in the Vulgate bible, all other Mariam's in the Vulgate are referred to as Mariam, but Mary is Mary):
http://www.bartleby.com/45/5/124.html

The Koran as a whole:
http://www.bartleby.com/45/5/
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

Thus the Koran has a story of a woman who in the story did NOT know man when she gave birth (Yes the story of Christ's virgin birth makes it into the Koran).

My take, women were recruited, often women who had been raped or manhandled and demanded revenge. No male was available to do so, so the women took up the offer by this woman. Such raped women would have recovered enough to be able to pull off the attack. As second group of women had NOT been raped, but recruited to carry explosives or weapons for they wanted to fight, but it was easier for the Police to throw all the women into one group, the women who had been raped.

This woman probably recruited 80 women (more from the non-raped victims then raped Victims but an unimportant detail to the interrogators), but had only the opportunity to use 28. The interrogatories had a problem, the rape women had been raped by their fellow Sunnis. By law and custom they had to revenge these women, but that means going after their own people. Thus the interrogators had a dilemma and solved it but adding the "fact" that this woman had had the other women raped AND then recruited. Thus the interrogators could "revenge" the rape by killing this woman (as opposed to the actual rapists, who were probably their fellow officers or tribesmen). I suspect she recruited rape victims, but given the nature of this struggle more non-raped victims, who had lost most if not all family members. She was arrested for recruiting and then interrogated. The interrogators heard what they wanted to hear and had her sign a confession to that, and then did this tape. By that point in the interrogations she was in no mental attitude to say anything then want the interrogators wanted her to say. I suspect she is NOT innocent, but I suspect the rape charge is bogus.

Remember the old rule of Propaganda, start with the truth, stay with the truth as much as possible. Introduce a lie only when it makes a point you want, but carefully, preferable in a way that can NOT be proved one way to another. The Lie has to be among truths, so that if the story is attack, you can bring out the truths to show the story is true. If someone says the stony is a lie, you then produce your evidence that shows the other things are true, and since the things that can be tested are true the whole story is true (Including the lie). Thus I believe she recruited these women, some of whom had been raped, but the story of who did the rapes was changed to make it look worse for this woman, and to make the police and the other Sunnis who switched sides, look better. Time may bring the full truth out, but I doubt it, this story is to good to die out quickly, be it true or false. The damage has been done, if who did the rape is a lie like I suspect, and given the nature of this crime, if true, by the time it can be verified, that verification will be forgotten.

[ronnie624]

200. Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

I have a feeling any information that casts serious doubt on this story will be hard to come by. If you happen across anything, I hope you'll keep us apprised.

[ohio2007]

223. your mindset is to westernized to accept cultural differences of how rape cases are contested in the

middle eastern cultural point of view.

http://www.rawa.org/murder-w.htm


I know,
not this inconvenient truth again.

[ronnie624]

230. I wouldn't mind discussing these issues with you,

but often, it is difficult to understand what it is exactly that you are trying to say, and you apparently don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do.

Judging by the content of your linked article and your vague line or two of commentary, you believe I am unaware of the extremism that exists in Afghanistan, but nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone born and raised in the West has a Westernized "mindset", but I have put much effort into keeping myself reasonably informed. I have also worked for a Pakistani family for years. They are devout Muslims, but they are nothing like the cartoonish version you and others regularly attempt to paint. The eldest brother was even schooled in Afghanistan for a while before the Soviet invasion. He has many interesting tales to tell, and we have discussed these issues at length many times.

Anyway, I don't see how you could deduce my "mindset" by my comments in the message you initially replied to. I only said that I found happyslug's commentary interesting, not that I necessarily agreed with it, and that I was looking forward to learning more about the issue under discussion on this thread.

Thank you for the link. Although I have already read the material long ago, I will make certain that I read it again in its entirety.

[Turborama]

239. Hi Ronnie, I think you might find this interesting too...

You seem like an intellectually curious person who is open for reasoned debate.

I linked this documentary before but in the context of this part of the thread it seems appropriate to link it again with some additional info...

RAWA - The Taliban's bravest opponents


The Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan is an all-female underground resistance of Afghan women who risk torture and execution to alert the world to the Taliban regime's atrocities. Here Janelle Brown tells of RAWA's activities and interviews one of their volunteers.

Oct. 2, 2001 | The film footage is wobbly and blurry but stunning: A soccer stadium in Afghanistan is packed with people, but there is no match today. Instead, a pickup truck drives into the stadium with three women, shrouded in burqas, cowering in the back.

Armed men in turbans force a woman from the truck, and make her kneel at the penalty line on the field. Confused and unable to see, the woman tries to look behind just as a rifle is pointed against the back of her head. With no fanfare whatsoever, she is shot dead. The shaky video camera captures the cheering crowd as people rise to their feet, hoping to get a better view of the corpse on the ground. The blue folds of the burqa begin to stain red with blood.

This public execution is some of the most shocking film ever seen on television; it is perhaps the best document that the West has of atrocities committed by the Taliban. It is just one part of an astonishing hour-long documentary called http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4201322772364661561">"Beneath the Veil" currently in heavy rotation on CNN. Filmed by the half-Afghan British reporter Saira Shah, who traveled undercover to Afghanistan last year, "Beneath the Veil" neatly captures the horror of life under the Taliban -- the public executions for infractions as minor as prostitution or adultery, the brutality of fundamentalist police, the slaughter of civilians unlucky enough to live on the front line of the civil war with the Northern Alliance.

In documenting life under the Taliban, Shah went into the homes of the Afghan people and onto the battlefields, cleverly evading the Department of Vice and Virtue, which would have thrown her in jail for filming illegally (all unsanctioned filming is forbidden). She visited territory occupied by the Northern Alliance, and visited a village where the Taliban had brutally murdered dozens of civilians just weeks earlier -- a local wedding photographer had filmed the scene as villagers buried rotting bodies that had been scalped and mutilated. There, Shah also interviewed three teenage girls whose mother had been shot dead by the Taliban. They were so traumatized by the atrocities that the Taliban subsequently inflicted upon them that two of them would no longer speak.

But some of the most heartstopping footage in "Beneath the Veil," including film of the execution of the women in the soccer stadium, was captured not by Shah but by an Afghan underground organization which assisted her in her work. Indeed, Shah's documentary would not have been possible were it not for the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA), an underground organization whose members risk their lives every day in attempts to undermine the Taliban and publicize its brutality.

RAWA was originally founded in 1977 as an Afghan feminist group focused on women's rights, but its mandate broadened when fundamentalists rose to power. Determined to expose the frightening abuses of the Taliban, women in the group began to hide video cameras under their burqa and document the executions and public floggings which take place every day under the Taliban. They also smuggle female journalists like Shaila Shah into the country, in hopes of bringing attention to their cause. In defiance of the Taliban's law forbidding education for women, RAWA also runs clandestine home-based schools for girls; for women, who are forbidden to work, RAWA teaches handicrafts and sells them online. In the refugee camps in Pakistan, RAWA also provides medical assistance, housing and education for impoverished and terrified fugitives of Taliban rule.

RAWA, the most prominent Afghan-run organization to oppose the Taliban, has become one of the fundamentalists' greatest enemies. Perhaps the aspect of the group most infuriating to its opponents -- and a surprising key to its effectiveness -- is that it consists entirely of women, nearly 2,000 in Afghanistan and Pakistan, who use the cover of their burqas and the seeming powerlessness of their status to strategic advantage.

By traveling with RAWA, Shah got a first-hand view of what it's like to be a woman living under the Taliban, and she was invited into RAWA's secret schools and illegal meetings. She also got access to its library of video footage -- which includes not just the film of the execution of the women, but footage of the public hanging of three men in the same soccer stadium. (The soccer stadium was funded by international aid groups who wanted to raise the spirits of the Afghan people; instead, the Taliban is using it only for executions. One Taliban official told Shah that if the aid groups felt that the stadium should be used for soccer, they should build the Taliban an extra stadium for executions.)

"Beneath the Veil" was filmed long before the attacks of Sept. 11, and, according to RAWA members, the situation in Afghanistan has since become more dire. Because the borders between Pakistan and Afghanistan have closed, the Afghan people are now trapped in their own country -- enduring the oppressive rule of the Taliban while waiting for U.S. bombs to drop from sky. RAWA, meanwhile, says it is running out of money and can't afford to educate, feed and treat the millions of refugees massed along the border. The Pakistani police, which are sympathetic to the Taliban, regularly target RAWA members; and since communication with Afghanistan has been cut off, the RAWA members in Pakistan know little about what is happening to their members across the border.

In a telephone interview from Islamabad, a 26-year-old member of RAWA, identified only as "Fatima," spoke about RAWA's work in Pakistan and Afghanistan, its position on war and the Northern Alliance, and its "uncompromising attitude" toward fundamentalism. A seven-year veteran of the group's dangerous brand of activism, Fatima is a member of the RAWA political committee that has been trying to rally both Afghan women and the international media to its agenda.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/taleban13.htm">Much more

Also, as I said in post #228 to Hannah Bell, if you look http://www.google.com/search?q=rape+as+a+weapon+of+war&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8">here you'll see that this whole using rape as a weapon argument isn't as black and white as it may 1st appear.

Personally. I don't 'believe' this story one way or the other and probably won't until a proper trial is held and witnesses and evidence are put forward in a court of law (even then it depends on whether this court can be trusted). For me, it's still an open case...

[Hannah Bell]

233. your mindset is to westernized to believe arabs = rapists, suicide bombers,

rape procurers

inconvenient truth

did you read the part in the article about the story being "impossible to verify"?

didn't think so.

but if you already know arabs = evil, who cares?

[Turborama]

238. Did you read the part in the article where correspondents say "it's not implausible"?

Thanks to Prometheus Bound:

"But in a culture where rape is considered very shameful for the victim, it is not implausible, correspondents say."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7869570.stm

[Hannah Bell]

241. someone's opinion about plausibility isn't fact or evidence, but spin.

There's no evidence this even happened except for the "confession."

[Turborama]

242. If you want to believe the police conspired to fabricate this story for no apparent reason, fine

Personally, I'm keeping an open mind about it...

[Hannah Bell]

243. Show me the rapists, rape victims & consequent suicide bombers.

Show me the source of the funds the woman paid the rapists.

There's at least 82 or more other people involved, where are they?

[Prometheus Bound]

237. That last paragraph, in particular, is very good.

[bottomtheweaver]

202. Bottom line: another "terrists everywhere" cover story brought to you by the CIA

and US Special Forces, who are also the behind those "suicide" bombs they plant in people's vehicles and elsewhere to achieve God knows what nefarious purpose. But they do and this idiotic nonsense is classic Bushler propaganda.

[Turborama]

204. Re: those "suicide" bombs the CIA/Special Forces plant in people's vehicles and elsewhere

Who do you think the Bali bombings in 2002 were carried out by?

There have been rumours on the internet that it was MOSSAD, do you believe these rumours?

[lonestarnot]

205. You old crazy old evil freak!

[Prometheus Bound]

210. "That claim was impossible to verify, AP said"

A lot of the articles on this manage to avoid mentioning that tidbit.

Iraq's 'female bomber recruiter'
That claim was impossible to verify, AP said, and during their interview with her police interrogators sat in an adjoining room.

But in a culture where rape is considered very shameful for the victim, it is not implausible, correspondents say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7869570.stm

From the OP:
It also was not possible independently to verify the claim that insurgents sent out people to rape women who could then be recruited as bombers in the volatile Diyala province northeast of Baghdad.

[Hannah Bell]

232. "impossible to verify, but not implausible" is the new standard for news?

if you're planting stories for intelligence services

[Prometheus Bound]

211. It appears that this headline is a lie.

It is only used by extreme right wing news organisations like Rupert Murdoch's News Corp(the first link in the OP)and the Times (UK). If you read even their reports or listen to the TV report, however, you find nothing to support the headline that she arranged the rapes.

All stories refer to the AP article, which does not use this lie in the headline and says nothing about her arranging the rapes.

More propaganda from right-wing news (sic) sites.

[No Elephants]

215. Posts 58 and 70 (Jack Riddler) and 210 and 211 (Prometheus Bound) get my vote for

best laid out reasoning on the thread.

BTW, welcome Prometheus Bound.

[Prometheus Bound]

235. Thank you for the welcome, No Elephants.

I appreciate it very much.

[crikkett]

231. Now that face makes a good case for the veil. What a monster.

What a monster.


:mad:

[clspector]

236. portrait of a sociopath

what an evil cow

[Xenotime]

240. It interesting to see western ideals taking hold there..

The US should be so proud of what we have done.

:sarcasm: