Senate bill would bar H-1B hiring at firms receiving bailout money

[OhioChick]

Source: ComputerWorld

Amendment is added to massive federal stimulus bill that gives U.S. workers job priority

February 5, 2009 (Computerworld) WASHINGTON -- Financial services firms that receive federal bailout money will be prohibited from hiring H-1B workers if legislation introduced last night in the U.S. Senate wins adoption.

The bill would bar any recipient of the Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP), the program being used by the government to purchase some $700 billion of bad mortgage assets, from hiring anyone on an H-1B visa. U.S. Sens. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) introduced the proposal as an amendment to the massive, $800 billion-plus federal stimulus bill, which is separate from the previously approved bank rescue funds.

"I firmly believe that companies going through layoffs that employ H-1B visas (holding workers) have a moral obligation to protect American workers by putting them first during these difficult times," said Sanders, according to an unofficial transcript of his remarks on the Senate floor.

The argument that Sanders raised for including the restriction in the TARP funding is similar to one that Grassley made to Microsoft Corp. in his recent letter to CEO Steve Ballmer. After the company announced plans to cut 5,000 jobs, Grassley told Microsoft that it had a "moral obligation" to give job priority to U.S. workers over foreigners with H-1B visas.



Read more: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9127439&intsrc=hm_list

---

Good for U.S. Sens. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) on this one.

[TahitiNut]

1. Good. The fiction of "No American Available To Do The Job" is laid bare for the LIE it is.

Trafficking in Human Labor must stop.

[unc70]

47. While often abused, many cases are totally justified

I am a software executive with decades of experience, primarily developing products in-house and then marketing and supporting them world-wide. I have never used the H-1B system nor outsourced any functions; I have had a number of foreign-born employees who had "green cards", most had come to the US as graduate students and had stayed with plans to become citizens.

With the exception that our small company has never out-sourced jobs/functions to anywhere, we have been involved through our clients and our partners with almost every other type of employment/contracting/partnering/selling relationship one might imagine in the US and dozens of other countries. While there have been many abuses of the rules, usually exploiting employees everywhere, and the US taxpayer should not be exploited yet again, I think that a complete ban on H-1B hirings by companies receiving bailout money would be a bad idea.

The recent alarmist AP reports that the large banks receiving the bailout were still using H-1B to hire many workers, particularly in areas like HR, accounting, corporate law, and IT. What they and others missed or failed to report (maybe to fan the emotions of their readers) is why this is a very valid on-going need. AP reports an average salary of over $90k for these workers; this indicates the hires were not made to save money by replacing US workers -- something else certainly is going on. Something important. Think about what is really happening.

For example, consider that a US company doing business in Germany or planning to enter that market would need people trained in things like German labor and business law, software localization issues including within-Germany differences concerning normal business practices, special laws, and subtle language differences. To meet that need, they bring workers from their German operating company.

A foreign company doing business in the US has these same issues. Think about how different things are between places in the US.

These workers typically come to the US for a few years to advise and learn from the corporation headquarters in the US with the intention of returning to the country-specific subsidiary. SImilarly, I know of US managers being transfered overseas for several years as part of their training to assume senior multinational positions.

I see this total ban as divisive politics and bad for business, pitting workers against workers while distracting from other issues. H-1B workers and illegal aliens are your new enemies, joing Islamists, welfare queens, gays, labor unions, the ACLU, the NEA, blacks, and communists.

[OhioChick]

48. Sorry,

But with the U.S. unemployment rate climbing daily, there is a surplus of American workers in "HR, accounting, corporate law, and IT" that would gladly take those jobs.

(BTW....that 90K for those jobs was low, given the area...which I believe was NY)

Most Americans want their taxpayer dollars to pay for U.S. workers to be put back to work. I'm sure any other country would agree....or wouldn't be as lenient as the U.S. has been thus far.

Good example: India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Jobs/Expatriate_executives_making_way_for_local_hires/articleshow/4039529.cms


India is smart....they're taking care of their own citizens, first. Something that the U.S. needs to do at this point.

[unc70]

49. Not seeking generic lawyer, but German/Bavarien specialist in labor law - how.

How many of these are currently sitting around in the US just waiting to hired?

What if it were a more-obscure country?

[OhioChick]

53. I can't even understand WTF you're trying to say or ask. n/t

[unc70]

58. A total ban on H-1B hiring causes problems elsewhere

I agree that H-1B is over used and has been used by many to displace US workers.

But there are routine situations where multi-national companies or US companies selling overseas really can not find the specific skills they need domestically. So while there are many unemployed people in HR, how many would know the details involved in laying off employees in Germany, my example above?

[Life Long Dem]

64. Beats me sitting around.

[Life Long Dem]

65. They always lie about the salary being the same for H-1B's.

The same way they always lie about not having employees with the skills needed. They still are doing this even when we are on the verge a depression makes absolutely no sense at all.

And it's about time!

[fasttense]

68. Are there really as many US citizens going overseas to train as coming here to the US on HB-1 visas?

I seriously doubt it.

You don't need an HB-1 visa to cross-train anyway. There is an exemption in the HB-1 visa law that allows for this. A routine green card or limited work visa would do the same thing. HB-1 visas are designed to bring workers with "specialty skills" to the US where US citizens can NOT do the specialty job. For example: The corporations needs someone who speaks five different Chinese dialects. The odds of finding that skill here in the US are very slim. But corporation have been routinely abusing HB-1 visas as a way of bringing cheap permanent labor into the US to undercut US wages.

Besides, if you want to sell your product here in the US, which no corporation or company in any country has a god given right to do, it should meet the same labor standards required here in the US. Many corporations would shut down and disappear today if they couldn't sell their junk made on slave wages here in the US.

Your arguments in favor of cheap labor and HB-1 visas don't hold water.

[ChromeFoundry]

2. Where are the Dem's signatures on this???

Fucking embarrassing!

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. Why aren't they the fucking sponsors???

What happened to the party of the working person?

[ChromeFoundry]

6. Sounds to me that....

lately, they are mixing up corporations from actual people.

Hopefully we don't end up with two political parties that reside on their knees, servicing big corporations.

[anonymous171]

29. The "limousine liberals," AKA Neo-liberals who are socially liberal

took over.

[OhioChick]

9. Surprised me, as well.

As a little kid, my Father used to always tell me that Republicans were for big corporations and the very wealthy, whereas Democrats were for the working man and for the poor. :shrug:

[LostinVA]

3. Good -- the cobbler's children should have shoes

[Andy823]

5. That's great.

What a about the other jobs, ones like building the infrastructure, is there something in the bill that makes sure contractors hire American workers for those jobs and prevents contractors from using illegal workers so they can pay them less and make a larger profit? I think all jobs created in this bill should be given to those who are legally able to work in this country, and all ID should be verified.

[jberryhill]

61. This may come as a surprise, but using illegal workers is already illegal /nt

[Xipe Totec]

7. I fully support this

Mind you, I'm one who thinks H1-B visas in general are a good idea...

[robinlynne]

8. Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!! and make that law alla round, period. not just for those who

are getting TRAp money. How about any corportiaon requesting hib visas gets an IRS audit, paid for by the company!!!!!!!

[ChromeFoundry]

10. I like that idea...

I bet Microsoft wouldn't need quite so many. And congress would not have to be bothered to have to listen to their stooge begging for more.

[ihavenobias]

11. K & R, and it's a no-brainer. n/t

[Psephos]

12. Yes, let's force struggling companies to hire people based on identity rather than skills or ability

Because that's sure to increase their competitiveness and economic strength.

Hiring H-1Bs is an expensive hassle. Companies usually do it because the "talent" coming out of US colleges is increasingly in short supply or sub-par. Meanwhile, H-1Bs pay taxes, but don't collect entitlements, then go home.

Our universities turn out fewer and fewer hard-science graduates, fewer and fewer exceptional engineers, and ever more soft-science or no-science ideologues who have nothing to offer except their opinions.

Fuck this. The recession will last forever with this kind of anti-stimulus.

I absolutely support giving preference to US citizens when other factors are equal, but not when it means hiring someone distinctly less qualified, less smart, or (more likely) simply not available.

[OhioChick]

13. That "short supply talent" is a myth.

The Science Education Myth
Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_827398.htm

I know of many "qualified U.S. IT workers" now that are unemployed. Don't believe all that hype about H-1B's being the "best and brightest" either.

Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_workers/study_says_h1bs_arent_the_best_or_brightest.html

There are also studies to back this Duke study up:

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-No-Shortage-of-US-Engineers/

[Thor_MN]

19. I have met too many people on H-1Bs that look great on paper

Say yes they can to just about anything in an interview, but when the rubber hits the road, they don't know squat. They did tend to have great networking skills where groups of them gathered together after hours to figure out just what it was that they were supposed to be doing during business hours. I'm sure that there are plenty of talented people here on H-1B visas, but the bulk of the ones that I have personally met were definitely sub-par.

[OhioChick]

23. I've seen at many companies where H-1B's pad their resumes...

There was an article here not that long ago (From India, no less) that suggested the same.

Right now, I'm working several side jobs for companies that either outsourced their work or hired H-1B's and the projects never got completed. Companies are getting burned and some are finally seeing this.

[Life Long Dem]

66. What's been happening is you end up training your replacement.

And your then shown the door.

[Psephos]

21. Good links - thx

I'm interested in your opinion why companies go through the trouble of seeking H-1Bs, and why they seem so heavily concentrated in a narrow range of skills.

[OhioChick]

25. H-1B's are here for up to 6 years assuming they have sponsorship...

Prevailing wage can't be verified, so they can be paid less, easily.

Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

Politicians and Immigration services know nothing about information technology. Companies are able to bullshit their way through statements such as there being not enough qualified citizens able to do the job.

[AyanRand Is Dead]

35. Wow! Thanks for all the awesome links!

You've really done your research. This is some really good ammo to use against the free traitors.

[shari]

14. "talent" coming out of US colleges is increasingly in short supply or sub-par"

Then maybe some of that "expensive hassle" could be transferred toward training American workers to help stimulate our economy.

[Psephos]

22. Which is another way of saying the most expensive education system in the world sucks

and has to be shored up by the very entities it's supposed to support by supplying a superior workforce.

[OhioChick]

26. If our education system sucks....

Then why are the Chinese and Indians flocking to it?

38% rise in Indian students going to US

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/38_rise_in_Indian_students_going_to_US/articleshow/3112099.cms

US: Chinese students flock to America

http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20081120152705156

[Psephos]

28. I actually don't think it sucks - I was taking the parent post to its logical conclusion

I don't think the parent poster meant that, either, but the reaction is a common one.

These issues are part emotion, part reason. The emotion part helps us feel good, the reason part helps us do good. I'm trying to skew things a bit more toward reason. :) One can hope.

[Left Coast2020]

33. Absolutely. I just got back from China last month.

And every student I talked to wanted me find them a sponsor so they could study here...and eventualy move permently. They go to a university in China (WuHan, Shen Yang; which where I was) and they all wanted to improve their english to get F-1 visa's.

[shari]

27. Actually...

I was being sarcastic and offering an alternative to corporations importing workers. The U.S. does not lack for qualified workers. The stimulus money (U.S. tax-payers money) is intended to stimulate jobs in the U.S. and support OUR economy. I suggest that each country do the same with money generated by their own tax-payers.

[amandabeech]

52. Why would anyone study anything if there were little chance of getting a job

that would pay off student loans?

A field crowded with H-1Bs doesn't pay well.

You live in Ann Arbor. If you can't figure this out, I suggest that you grab someone off the street to help you.

[Psephos]

56. You could've googled before posting that, and then you'd have your answer

Start here:

http://studentloanjustice.org/

Go to the "Victims" section. Pick a state. Or ten.

Your assumptions aren't as good as you might think.

No offense. :)

[amandabeech]

57. What's your point?

Someone you know has a lot of student loans? Can't get a loan? Can't pay off the loan? People who come here on student visas can't pay their loans?

Your post is cryptic to this dummy.

[Psephos]

59. You asked a specific question, and I answered it with a pointer to actual case histories

Hundreds of them. Answering very specifically what you originally asked.

Did you even click through to any of them?

It looks like you didn't.

[mac56]

15. Sure, let's scrap this idea.

What a great way to ensure that our universities continue to turn out fewer and fewer engineers. Do I even need the "sarcasm" icon here?

You don't think tech companies are already hiring people based on identity? Really? Give me a goddamn break.

[ChromeFoundry]

16. Companies are not hiring based on skills...

I have had to write classified ads for my previous company that made it difficult for anyone to apply for the position and meet the qualifications of the "job". Any resumes that DID meet the qualifications, got lost in the circle file.

This was the companies way to keep low wage h-1b employees, it had nothing to do with talent.

[OhioChick]

18. My company did the same thing...

They'd put an ad in the newspaper, get hundreds and hundreds of resumes of well qualified people and then ditch all of them....keep the H-1B that they had and said that they tried in "good faith" to hire an American. :eyes:

[jberryhill]

63. Chrome - read "My Story" below

I hit the qualifications one of those ads bang-on because one of my own students was actually running the lab in question, and the company still wanted to say I was "not qualified".

When they called me in a "second round" to try to knock me out, I felt like saying "We could save some time here if speaking Hindi is a qualification for the lab."

[Kittycat]

17. You sound like a self serving corporatist

I suggest looking at the links provided above my response, and getting a bit of a reality check. My husband is an engineer, and has seen his office gutted over the years in lieu of cheap foreign labor and jobs moving over seas. It's time that American Companies began to take care of it's own vs. their bottom line and cheap outsourced and unqualified labor.

[Psephos]

20. And you sound like a snotty ideologue

Which leaves me uninterested in further discussion with you or any other uncivil poster. I don't mind in the least that we have strongly different opinions, but your "dialog" technique is medieval.

By the way, did you outsource your automobile manufacturing to a foreign worker? What kind of car do you drive?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AyanRand Is Dead]

36. I believe you mean he sounds like.

A self serving corporatist schill. With emphasis on the schill.

[Psephos]

46. try a dictionary next time

it's spelled "shill"

given that I'm self-employed and think that working for a corporation would be hell on Earth, I guess you're, umm, dead wrong

[AyanRand Is Dead]

51. Professional Sycophant?

[Psephos]

55. lol

by the way, it's AYN Rand, not AYAN

;-)

[LostinVA]

43. You got it -- the same thing happened to an engineer friend of mine

Excellent education, including higher degrees, great work experience, including military work, and what happens? He and most of his coworkers were replaced by visaed workers paid much less, and who weren't as educated or experienced.

As I said in this thread: the cobbler's children need shoes first.

[LostinVA]

42. There are many excellent "hard science" college grads literally begging for jobs

Many of them can't find work in their field.

[jberryhill]

62. My story

After completing a doctorate in engineering, I was looking for work.

Many companies run ads with specific requirements designed to demonstrate that they looked for a US hire.

I answered one of these ads for a position and company which, from the description and information from one of my former students working there, was a particular lab within that company.

That lab was run by a foreign grad student who took the class *I* developed and taught the lab section for, and who learned the relevant material from me.

I received a follow-up call from the company, and the interviewer began pressing me for answers to obscure picayune questions, which were obviously based on the resume' of the foreign candidate they wanted to hire.

I let him go for a while, and I answered his questions. By that time, I had already found other employment, but I wanted to see how this played out.

When he got to the point of still being "not sure" if I was qualified, I asked "Do you know Dr. XXXX?"

He was surprised and said, "Yes. He runs the lab."

And I said, "I'm glad to hear that. Do you see on my resume' where it says I developed and ran the lab section for the course in YYY?"

"Yes."

"Dr. XXX was in my first semester of students for that class. So, tell me, how am I qualified to teach him what he does in your lab, and I'm not qualified to work in it?"

He didn't have much of an answer to that, but he was clearly stressing, because it was his job to disqualify me. I felt sorry for him, and I let him off the hook by telling him it was fine by me if he hired whomever he wanted to hire from India, but I didn't appreciate him wasting my time by responding me respond to a bullshit want ad.

The H1-B process, regardless of how well-intentioned, is a joke.

And, oh yeah, I left engineering, went into law, and am extremely glad I did.

If you are a US citizen, pursuing an education in engineering or the sciences is a major waste of time. I cut my losses to a decade.

[antigop]

24. Wow! So we have to depend on a Republican and an Independent to bring forth this amendment.

I'm glad to see it, but as questioned by posters upthread, WHERE ARE THE DEMS?

Oh, that's right -- in the pockets of the corporations.

[OhioChick]

31. My thoughts, exactly. n/t

[fujiyama]

32. This sounds pretty easy to get around actually

Much of the work is contracted out anyways. Usually major companies will hire staffing firms that end up doing the sponsoring.

It's pretty rare for major companies like Microsoft, etc to sponsor H1s directly. It's expensive and it's a hassle and it usually doesn't cut costs as much as expected so they contract it out. Sometimes it's subcontracted to other companies (like Wipro, etc). The H1 system is a huge mess. I've seen so many abuses now - such as threats to lay people off and send them back to India if they didn't work crazy hours for shitty wages. Meanwhile, wages and benefits are being lowered accordingly for all of us. I've been screwed over myself by a company that does plenty of H1s and outsourcing simply because that's how they treat people. They treat people like a commodity...even worse. Like garbage. They'll toss you in the trash when they're done using you.

I really want these companies to burn after the way they treat people. It's obvious companies are just doing this to screw people over. I'm part of that group that's been screwed. They often keep forgetting that I'm a US citizen and think I'm one of their H1 folks they can push around. And it's making me irate.

[AyanRand Is Dead]

34. Actually I don't care who replaces the bankers

The bankers could get replaced by talking chimps for all I care. It's the jobs of the AVERAGE AMERICAN CITIZENS that we need to protect. Not the Wall Streeters.

Damn the government has NO clue!

[pundaint]

37. It's about time

Not only do these screw-ups not know investing, they have relied on technical leadership from the lowest bidders. As an American systems guy, my recession is entering its 14th year, since McCain the traitor voted to throw the doors open to low cost, low capability labor. There was never any real shortage of labor, only a shortage of ways to reduce pay further.

[GetTheRightVote]

38. About time they take care of their own people and their well being..

:kick:

[tkmorris]

39. IT'S ABOUT FUCKING TIME!!

And yeah, it's kind of embarrassing that this bill doesn't have a Dem sponsor.

[jody]

40. Outstanding! n/t

[HopeHoops]

41. About time! Perfect idea.

[w4rma]

44. Very important law! (nt)

[cascadiance]

45. Don't forget, India subsidizes its workers with FREE bachelor's degree educations...

We get "free education" through high school. They get at least a bachelor's degree education there. Now an Indian worker I know says that granted, a bachelor's degree at their universities isn't as good as one that is gotten through our universities, but a bachelor's degree from their universities is a helluva a lot better than a high school diploma for us. The playing field is already uneven for starters. If Jerry Brown were to run for governor against Arnold, he should make his former subsidized college degree program in California a cornerstone of his campaign and point out how he already had the answers then to today's problems when he was governor before, and he wants to bring that back!

For Indians the big decision for them is whether to pay to get a masters degree or not. A Master's degree earlier had almost guaranteed them a position either in Bangalore or a H-1B spot over here. And the investment is far less than we have to make here for equivalent education (especially considering the differences in cost of living here and there).

[Psephos]

50. You get what you pay for n/t

[w4rma]

54. This amendment passed but it got watered down a bit. (nt)

[Endangered Specie]

60. I really hope this passes, we need to put American workers first!

[fjc]

67. And GM wants to take a billion of our money and spend it in Brazil.

Fuck that! A similar restriction should be in place here.