N.Y.C. so costly you need to earn six figures to make middle class

[WriteDown]

Source: Daily News

More than $2,000 a month for day care. Some of the highest phone bills in the country. Jam-packed, 50-plus-minute commutes to work.

You knew it was tough to live in New York City — but this tough?

A new report shows just how ugly — and expensive — New York City can be, especially for the middle class, squeezed by skyrocketing living costs and stagnant wages.

The study, released Thursday by the Center for an Urban Future, shows that New York City is hands-down the most expensive place to live in the country.

Among the findings:

*
A New Yorker would have to make $123,322 a year to have the same standard of living as someone making $50,000 in Houston.
*
In Manhattan, a $60,000 salary is equivalent to someone making $26,092 in Atlanta.
*
You knew it was expensive to live in Manhattan, but Queens? The report tagged Queens the fifth most expensive urban area in the country.
*
The average monthly rent in New York is $2,801, 53% higher than San Francisco, the second most expensive city in the country.....

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/02/05/2009-02-05_nyc_so_costly_you_need_to_earn_six_figur.html

---

For some perspective. Pretty good illustration of why I left.

[roguevalley]

1. I could never live anywhere when the rent check equaled the

pay check, big pretzels and culture be damned. :-D

I admire the intestinal fortitude of NYC folks.

[provis99]

2. I lived pretty well on $6,000 a year in Mississippi in the 90s

One of my childhood friends lives in Manhattan because of a job transfer, and now pays $6,000 per month for a crappy apartment in the Clinton neighborhood. I couldn't imagine living like that. Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

[Kittycat]

3. Then those people should try to find jobs in Houston.

I never quite understand the purpose of these idiotic statistics. Yes, it's cheaper to live in other areas of the country - but you get what you pay for, and includes access or limited access to jobs. I bet it's dirt cheap to live in Appalachian areas, that doesn't mean I'm going to leave Chicago to take up residency there. It's all about supply and demand.

[girl gone mad]

14. I don't think it really is.

Prices are inflated in NYC because of a group of really high earners that skew the average. Some of those jobs are drying up and rents are falling as a result.

The quality of life for the average NYer is so low, I don't know how they manage. One of my best friends left the city a couple of years ago and he says he will never go back, even to visit, his existence there was so miserable. If you're a millionaire, it's a great place to live. For everyone else, it's close to hell on earth.

[AndyTiedye]

19. Location Location Location

People are willing to pay more than double to live there for a reason.

[aquart]

23. Oh, piffle.

I'm rent stablilized. My neighbors are rent controlled. We don't have luxury or dishwashers, but we do have a subway on each corner.I have Chelsea Market for great vegetables at good prices, and thrift shops so elegant that one is even nicknamed Salvation Armani. The drug store in Bed Bath and Beyond has the lowest prices in the area and then they allow me to use their 20% coupons besides.

And let's not forget the prize-winning $2.99 wine at Trader Joe's.

[No Elephants]

40. Rent controlled apartments are not the rule in NYC, though. Even in

the 1960's, people would scour the obituaries, hoping to find a rent-controlled apartment that way.

[Stephanie]

41. Rent control ended in the early 70s.

Rent control is a relic of the past unless you are a senior still living in your 70s era apartment, but most apartments now are rent-stabilized. It's the luxury apartments that skew the average cost in the report above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_control_in_New_York#Rent_control

[No Elephants]

47. The poster to whom I was replying posted that his/her neighbors have a rent-

congrolled apartment. :shrug:

[Stephanie]

48. Yes, they are probably elderly and have lived there for 40 years

If you had read the link I provided, perhaps you would understand. :shrug:

[No Elephants]

67. I understood your post. and I believed it, at least the part about

rent control. My original post on the subject stated, in its entirety:

"Rent controlled apartments are not the rule in NYC, though. Even in the 1960's, people would scour the obituaries, hoping to find a rent-controlled apartment that way."

Point is, they're scarce and have been for decades.

I don't see how your post does anything but support what I posted in the first place. So, thanks.

[Stephanie]

71. You don't understand the difference between rent controlled and rent stabilized

Again, read the link.

[No Elephants]

75. Again, I understand the difference between rent stablized

and rent controlled very well. I lived in NY. I simply chose, for my own reaasons, to comment on only so much of another poster's comment as applied to rent controlled apartments. That does not mean that I did not understand the rest of his or her post.

I also understand the difference co-ops and condos. Choosing to post something about the availability of condos in Manhattan would not mean that I do not know the difference between co-ops and condos. That,candidly, is exactly the kind of unwarranted leap that you made. Jumping to conclusions like that may say something about the state of your knowledge of certain things. It says nothing about the state of my knowledge about any subject, though.

[Stephanie]

76. You don't understand it. There are NO rent controlled apartments available in New York.

They don't exist anymore, except for those seniors who have been living in one since the early 70s. Rent control ended in 1971, except for those tenants who still possess those 1970s or before leases. Rent control on such an apartment dies when the tenant does. So nobody has LOOKED for a rent controlled apartment since 1971. It's impossible. Rent stabilized, yes. That's what most of us have. Got it yet?

[No Elephants]

82. You seem to be confusing

acknowledge that rent controlled apartment exist and I never claimed that they were available for rent today.

A poster mentioned rent controlled apartment in the context of the cost of living in NY (which. btw. happens to be the topic of the thread). I replied that rent controlled apartments are the exception, not the rule.

Translation: When discussing the topic of this thread--the cost of living in NY--rent controlled apartments are really are not all that relevant. I said nothing about their availability for rent today. That is also something that you read into my post.

Again, everything you have posted since then has done nothing but support my original and accurate post on the topic. You just seized on something totally out of the context in which it was posted and, from there, then jumped to unwarranted conclusions about what I know and do not know. That is your problem. It says nothing about what I do or do not know.

Got it?

If not, ask someone else to explain it to you because I give up.

[Stephanie]

83. Well thank you for translating

And I give up too. What a tedious conversation.

[No Elephants]

86. If you had not taken my post to someone else totally out of context, you probably would not have

needed a translation, let alone all this back and forth over it. and, you were certainly free to drop it whenever you chose. But, since you seem to have a need for the last word, be my guest.

[jzodda]

160. Wrong-there is a way to still get into rent control

If you can establish 2 years of continual residency in a rent controlled apartment (and are related to the tenant, including adoption) the rules are the same as for a rent stabilized apartment. Meaning if you move in with your elderly aunt for 2 full years before she dies, her rent controlled apartment becomes yours. In many cases when this happens they will try hard to evict you anyway by bringing a non-primary residence case against you in housing court (because many people try to do this without actually living there just to get the apartment) but if you can prove that you were living there the apartment stays under whatever rules that governed the apartment before hand.

This number of apartments dwindles over time anyway of course because no new rent controlled apartments are being created.

[JeanGrey]

133. My friend lives in Manhattan in a rent controlled apartment and

she isn't "elderly". She is in her late fifties.

[Rage for Order]

15. Actually, there are plenty of jobs in Houston

The larger cities in Texas - Houston, San Antonio, Dallas - have, to date, dodged the majority of the bullet in the current recession. The population of the state of Texas is growing, home values have only fallen a couple of percentage points, and more & more companies are relocating corporate offices to Texas.

[Kittycat]

125. However, employees are also paid less.

So it limits their ability to transfer out of the area.

Corporations set up regional pay scales and limit or increase pay based on area cost of living. An employee in TX with the same job grade and performance of an employee in Chicago will make less, annually. However, if both employees attempt to leave said company, and apply for the same job elsewhere, it's the Chicago Employee that has more potential in pay stature/appearance of ability on paper. Particularly since the new hiring company does not have access to verify employment. It appears that the higher paid employee is the better of two.

[Zhade]

163. Maybe they have family in NYC, or can't move for some reason.

It's a tough spot to be in when that happens.

[DFW]

4. My daughter lives in Manhattan

She shares a shabby tiny cramped "apartment" that most people would be ashamed to call a closet with another young woman she found on Craig's List or something like that.

She makes $40,000 a year, and it barely covers the rent plus the occasional meal.

On the other hand, she adores her neighborhood and loves the city in general. She would like a better-paying job (as it is, hers is already in peril along with the company that hired her), and a bigger apartment, but her neighborhood is full of just about everything, and she loves it there. She has made a huge number of friends, learned to live on a tight--to say the least!!--budget, and, like the song goes, figures if she can make it there, she can make it anywhere. I admire her guts for wanting to try. For someone who grew up in a small medieval town in northwestern Germany, it's a far cry from home and familiar ground.

[wartrace]

5. I wouldn't live there (or any city/suburb) for any amount of money.

I like rural areas where you can sleep with your windows open and not be disturbed by anything but a hoot owl. Where you can have a chicken coop and a bunch of good ole hound dogs. I voluntarily cede my "spot" to others who enjoy city living- it isn't for me.

[Critters2]

77. Agreed. Many who live there think it's worth the cost and inconvenience.

They can have it.

[JeanGrey]

134. Me, too! You couldn't PAY ME to live like that in New York.

Yuck.

[deadmessengers]

6. Wait, but I thought people making six figures should be taxed into oblivion?!

At least, that's what I've heard around here a few times.

Oh, and WriteDown - that's also why I left as well.

[stray cat]

7. Jobs in my field are limited and in NYC I at least am employed

I'll just never be able to buy a house or condo or retire.

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. If it's that bad for the middle class, how on earth do the working poor and

unemployed even survive?!

[Smarmie Doofus]

16. With great difficulty. nt

[Xenotime]

170. They suffer and struggle everyday..

People sell food on the street just to get by. Some parts of the city are just so sad.

[truthisfreedom]

9. I lived on less than $10k/year between 1991 and 1997 in Minneapolis.

And I thought I had it pretty good.

[rasputin1952]

10. I am originally from NYC...

Things were always more expensive, taxes were high and all of the usual stuff one hears about. But there is no place quite like NYC. Like all things, it changes; take Long Island, the North Fork was all potato farms, today, it's vineyards and building is taking up what land is left.

These days I reside in Nebraska, (don't ask), and if it got any slower for this geezer from the City, I'd be considered to be dead.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. I've always said that NYC is only for the very young or the very rich

anyone else - I don't know how they stand it.

I commuted into the city for two years. Hour plus bus ride each way. It was awful. The job was awful. I truly could not have stood it one second longer than I did.

But I'm also glad to see this article, b/c I often hear from people outside the WDC-Boston east coast area that $XX ought to be plenty to live on, etc. They usually poo-poo the much, much higher cost of living here. It's for real, folks.

[alittlelark]

12. The Silicon Valley Peninsula is the same.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

13. Why do people choose to live like that?

I have spent alot of time in New York and just don't see what is so great about it that would justify that sort of premium. I would go completely insane living there, I need my space and I could never feel like a man without my riding lawnmower.

[Stephanie]

29. Yes that riding lawnmower is essential to manhood

I'm sure it drives the chicks mad with desire. You're joking, right? If not, we thank you for not choosing to live here in NY.

[Joey Liberal]

31. HaHa! Great reply, Stephanie! nt

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

79. Mostly...

I do have a riding lawnmower though,

[wartrace]

87. LOL- "She thinks my tractor's sexy"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2KmzFABujM

I wonder what it does to a guy's "manhood" when he sees a bigger lawnmower! Seriously though, I have no desire to live in New York city and that's why I choose to live in rural Tennessee. I am sure there are many wonderful things about both areas but my preference is an area where I can produce my own food and live my life in a simple and uncomplicated manner. The thing I like most about living here is that nobody is in a hurry, there is no rush about anything. People are willing to stop and help a neighbor, people wave when they pass each other on a lonely country road. The people are nice.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

107. Do you honestly think that people in NYC...

are not willing to stop and help a neighbor? Or that they're not "nice"? And many NYers are embracing urban permaculture.

Tennessee has many lovely areas and it sounds as if you're really happy where you are. But for many of us, "lonely" country roads are best reserved for weekend getaways. We'll balance each other out...

[rainbow4321]

121. They were really nice to my kids and me when we were tourists

We went there the summer of 2000. One guy (looked like he was on his way to work) missed his bus because he noticed we looked lost..his bus came and left but he still took time to tell us how to manage the mass trans system. When the kids and I finally got on a bus, I asked the driver something and before he could answer me, every rider (who heard me ask the question) in the first 6 rows were offering me directions. All at the same time.
We stopped at a donut cart one morning for breakfast and the guy selling the donuts stuffed our bag with a few extra donuts...and then called us back to his cart because he saw that we forgot napkins.
All in all, the locals were alot nicer than the other tourists we were around while we did "the tourist thing" at all the places one goes to while visiting NYC.
I was a single mom with 13 y/o and 9 y/o girls in tow but I never once felt worried or unsafe there. Which is more than I could say for downtown Dallas!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

162. And you lived to tell about it. ;-)

Can't imagine anything ever taking me to Dallas, but I'll keep on my toes if I ever do end up downtown. I do hope to visit Austin and San Antonio some day. I watched some Christmas special back in December and the Riverwalk was featured -- it looked lovely!

[wartrace]

135. I didn't mean to imply that NYC people are any different.

I am saying that the pace seems slower here with less things going on. The older I get the more I value this type of lifestyle.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

139. Gotcha. (n/t)

[babythunder]

151. Great way to make a judgment about a place

you've never been. The same way you couldn't see yourself living in a city where people aren't nice and there are no places to produce your own food I couldn't imagine living the backwoods of Tennessee which isn't exactly known for it's diversity if you know what I mean.

[wartrace]

164. There you go......

My nearest neighbor? A church whose congregation is entirely African American and the preacher lives next to the church. The other closest neighbor? A family of Laotians who operate a couple of chicken barns. SOOOO, who is calling the kettle black? Oh, I have BEEN to NYC but have never lived there.

[babythunder]

180. My point

was that you were making a judgment call about a place you probably know very little about other then what you see on television.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

73. Water, architecture, engineering, history, every cuisine imaginable,

diverse population, culture, the ability to walk or take public transportation (not rely on the almighty automobile), real neighborhoods (not bland subdivisions)...

That's funny...the thought of weekends on a riding lawn-mower makes me want to blow my brains out. But, I'm just a girl.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

81. We have all that and more in Southern California

at a fraction of the price,

[WorseBeforeBetter]

84. Not nearly on the same scale as NYC -- I've been to LA and San Diego.

Plus, the weather in SoCal would be boring as hell -- many prefer four distinct seasons. But as stated elsewhere in this thread, to each his/her own.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

89. I can pull my bass boat out of my real neighborhood and be fishing in 10 minutes.

I can also be virtually wealthy on 120k a year. Thanks I'll stay where I'm at.

David

[WorseBeforeBetter]

100. No one was trying to convince you to move. (n/t)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. Good to know.

[Critters2]

91. We have water. Sometimes more than we want.

And neighborhoods, too. And not the kind with buildings 10 stories high where you might meet your neighbor in the elevator. I sit on the front porch in the summer, and talk to my neighbors as they sit on theirs. That is a neighborhood.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

104. There's more to NYC housing than 10-story-high buildings, no?

People actually meet with neighbors on porches, stoops, balconies, patios, rooftop terraces and decks, not to mention numerous parks, including a pretty spectacular one.

Again, to each his/her own.

[babythunder]

152. Have even been to NYC?

I guess your not familiar with Brownstones or that yes NYC does actually have houses. It's best to not make assumptions about a place you've never been because guess what television and movies don't always tell the full story.

[Critters2]

178. I have been to New York. Meh.

Oh, and we have culture out here in the hinterlands, too...and neighborhoods that aren't "bland subdivisions".

[babythunder]

181. Oh great is this the part where you tell me

that your community theater puts on better shows then Broadway LOL

[Critters2]

183. This from people who brag that they have water.

:rofl:

[babythunder]

184. And indoor plumbing don't forget that

developers just started incorporating toilets and bathtubs because too many tourists were getting hit with human excrement while walking on NYC sidewalks.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

158. I live in a two-story "building."

There are also porches here.

And if you want people to talk to, there are millions of them here.

[Chovexani]

168. You really need to stop watching Law & Order.

Signed,

A lifelong New Yorker, born and raised in a house.

[AngryAmish]

166. For men, because the women are prettier.

[Joey Liberal]

17. I have relatives in NYC

It is a tough place to live. I don't know how they do it. Perhaps its not as bad as Oklahoma, where we have two of the wackiest GOP Senators, Bible thumpers galore, and where every county in the state went for McCain/Gidget.

[kath]

33. Yeppers, living in OK sucks ass.

I hate living in Dumbfuckistan.
New York is whacko-expensive, but I sure would like living in *some* sort of civilization...

[rainbow4321]

74. I've worked with several nurses who lived in OK but drove to TX for work

Some would rent a cheap hotel room for 2 nights, work their 3 shifts/week in the hospital I used to work at (an hour from the OK-TX border) and then drive back home to OK. That way the got the "higher pay" that TX nurses get but still got to live in OK where I am guessing the cost of living was lower for them.
We've got waaayyyy more hospitals down here compared to OK so there is more competative/higher pay. I remember scanning the Oklahoma want ads when I was visiting relatives up there and unlike down here (TX) where there are pages and pages of healthcare want ads, Tulsa had maybe 2 pages. No need for hospitals to be competative with pay if there are only a small handful in the area.

[Joey Liberal]

93. Are you still a nurse, rainbow?

[rainbow4321]

102. Yep..I work in an outpatient clinic now

Fled the inpatient setting a few years ago.

I take care of lower income people living with HIV/AIDS now. I did homecare with them for 5 years and then left that field of nursing.
Switched over to the hospital setting (med surg, telemetry, newborn nursery, neonatal ICU) for 8 years. Had the chance to go back to do HIV/AIDS nursing and jumped at it.

[Joey Liberal]

105. You are a hero!

Can I e-mail you with a medical question?

[rainbow4321]

106. That's fine...I can't guaranty I will know the answer

but I can maybe point you in the right direction to get it answered, etc.. if it is outside the scope of nursing.

[closeupready]

18. As a gay man, I'll tell you why I love it here - because I feel free. And

you know, those of you from here originally now living in Nebraska and wherever - I understand the appeal, I'm originally from exactly that type of place, rural Midwest. I also remember the not-so-nice parts of living in a backwater village where gays are 'fags' and worse and you had to drive 75 miles just to get the nearest gathering spot for other gay people, and I'm not making that up.

But you know, I also like peace and quiet and bang for my buck; the problem is people get stuck because they like their jobs, they get a network of friends and family and then it's more difficult to leave.

But like everyone, I certainly have a short list of places where I'd next like to live. Don't know if that day will come, we'll see. :)

[Joey Liberal]

32. As a Straight man, I'm glad for you

I'm a big supporter of Gay rights, and I'm glad that you feel free in NYC. I'd rather live there than this hell hole called Oklahoma. But I've got a good job and lot's of ties that keep me here. Plus, its fun to irritate the republicans that I'm surrounded by. Oklahoma republicans are the worst. But they are so much fun to offend:)..........

[quiet.american]

20. Hmph. No wonder this NY'er is always worn out! nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

21. And most non-luxury apartments don't even have dishwashers - it's primitive

compared to most of the country.

I don't know why people put up with it... No way I'd live there. But to each his own.

[Stephanie]

30. Primitive! HAH HAH HAH!

People like you prize a dishwasher over a symphony orchestra, a riding lawnmower over Broadway and BAM, a Walmart supermarket over the best restaurants in the entire world. There's a reason why some of us live here and most of you don't. I'm always fascinated when the NYC bashing begins. You loved us on 9/12/01.

[WriteDown]

34. You sound kind of like a fatcat.....

gallivanting around to the symphony and best restaurants.

[Stephanie]

37. You think culture = fatcats?

Then, as I said above, NYC thanks you for choosing not to live here.

[WriteDown]

140. Joking....

I only spent 28 years there. NYC has the best Chinese food, but as far as Mexican food, I'd have to give it to Texas, and BBQ(the new craze in NYC) is probably the best in NC, but that opens up a whole can of worms.

[bettyellen]

38. Steph is nothing of the sort, there are tons of free and cheap performances all year round

all over the city. the best food can be expensive- but it's another amaozing once in a lifetime experience a NYer can have at the drop of a hat. they might have to save uo fir it.. or do luch instead of dinner- but it's not totally out of reach, like it is to most other Americans.

[Stephanie]

39. There are fabulous cheap restaurants all over NYC

Speaking of which, we need to meet up! How you been? :hi:

[bettyellen]

95. i love how people psych themselves- and scare themsleves witless over lil old NYCity, don't you?

i'm good- it has been way too long. give me a holler + we'll meet up!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

129. Or how they use the Statue of Liberty as an avatar while insulting the city.

[WriteDown]

142. See post 140 nt.

[Zuiderelle]

88. NYC is one of the cheapest places I've lived for going to the theater...

and they have hundreds of inexpensive and GOOD restaurants. I lived in Manhattan for 10 years on a shoe-string budget and I still miss it.

You can get standing-room tickets to the opera and symphony for very little money, and when those fatcats leave before intermission, you can just take their seats.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

127. With our complicated shoes!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

35. No kidding.

I'll take all that over a dishwasher any day.

[Waiting For Everyman]

46. Yes, your living conditions ARE primitive - most NYC apartments are dumps.

I don't know why the obvious is so hard for you to admit. But if you don't care, that's fine. As I aleady said, to each his own.

[Stephanie]

49. You keep your dishwasher, and your ignorance, small mind and rude manners

And again, thanks for not living here! :hi:

[Waiting For Everyman]

52. I'm rude? Check yourself out.

[BklnDem75]

50. Compared to what? Baltimore?

NYC is far from the cleanest place in the world, but calling it a dump tells me you don't get around very often in your own state.

[Waiting For Everyman]

53. Even most dumps in Baltimore (or anywhere) have standard plumbing

for a lot less than NYCers pay.

[Stephanie]

55. Is this really all about a dishwasher?

You must be the laziest person on earth.

[Waiting For Everyman]

57. Your outrage at a casual comment is borderline hysterical.

[Stephanie]

58. Your insistence that the average NYC apartments don't have "standard plumbing"

Is beyond stupid. Why are you ranting about things you know nothing about?

[Waiting For Everyman]

61. I call it as I saw it. You're free to have your own opinion of course.

Is that so hard to deal with?

Since evidently it is, don't expect another reply.

[Stephanie]

62. Again, we thank you for not living here.

Enjoy watching the rinse cycle, it must be very fulfilling for you.

[Critters2]

78. Why are you so threatened that someone doesn't think you live

in the best place on earth? If it's so wonderful, why do you care that someone doesn't think so?

[Stephanie]

80. I am sick of people taking potshots at New York. It's incredibly rude.

If there were a thread here about rural poverty, and WE started ranting about how you couldn't pay me a million dollars to live in Hicksville, I think it might bother you too. It's really funny, on 9/12/01 you were ALL New Yorkers. Today you take delight in bashing my city. It's nasty and offensive and unnecessary. Imagine the people in this thread were making the same remarks about YOUR town and maybe you can begin to see how rude it is.

[Critters2]

90. " If there were a thread here about rural poverty,

and WE started ranting about how you couldn't pay me a million dollars to live in Hicksville, I think it might bother you too."


Yeah. Like THAT never happens. :eyes:


Please remember this, the next time a thread does devolve into attacks on rural America--you know, like with people telling us we have no culture, no decent places to eat, how they just COULDN'T live out here in the sticks. I'll be fully expecting you to come to my community's defense.

[Stephanie]

92. How about if I just agree not to bash your community?

I don't see why I'm required to come to your defense after you accuse me of "feeling threatened" because I respond to rude, untrue remarks about my town. I have never bashed small towns, in fact I come from one and I love it very much. But it's open season on New York in this thread and I feel compelled to correct the misinformation. And I expect you'll do the same when they start in on you.

[MicaelS]

172. The problem never has been NYC,

It's the smug attitudes of some of it's residents, yours for instance. To quote you "It's nasty and offensive and unnecessary."

[Ignis]

174. But it's not rude to insult people?

Those people whom you are insulting have feelings. Most NYC apartments do not.

[Le Taz Hot]

132. Oh, please.

You do know there are symphony orchestras in other cities, don't you? And GREAT restaurants and stores OTHER than WalMart? Jesus! The elitism coming out of some of these posts is amazing. And YOU whine about bashing???? Take a look in the mirror.

[babythunder]

155. You say this because surely you've lived in

a luxury apartment in NYC? Yea didn't think so.

[hedgehog]

22. I think the worst aspect of this is that many of the mid-level public

employees such as cops and firemen can't afford to live in the city.

[No Elephants]

24. In Manhattan, housing cost is the killer. Everything else, I got much cheaper than I can get in

Boston (and housing costs in town here are no bargain, either). That is the price you pay for living in Manhattan, though. That's why people live in places like Union City, Weehawken, Hoboken, Ridgefield, etc., especially if they have families. (For those who do not know, all those are in NJ, but there is good transportation--bus, subway and even ferry.) Staten Island used to be an option, too. I don't know if it still is.

[Smarmie Doofus]

25. Add in the cost of private school ( a virtual necessity).......

... and it's hasta la vista baby. For lower-middle/middle income folks, anyway.

[Smarmie Doofus]

26. Delete

[Yavin4]

27. I Live In NYC Because I Don't Need A Car

I hate driving.

[Joey Liberal]

60. It would be nice not having a car nt

[slackmaster]

28. I wouldn't live there if they paid me $1 million per year

I like visiting NYC, but there's no way I could be happy living there. Way too many people.

[No Elephants]

43. Usually, it's only people who have never lived in NYC who say that. I have

been a resident and a frequent visitor (moved away, but still had family and friends there). I say it's great place to live, but rough as a place to visit. And when you are only a visitor, you REALLY pay through the nose (whatever that means) for everything.

[Stephanie]

44. And eating at Applebees and seeing Legally Blonde and

swarming with the throngs of tourists in Times Square - for tourists it's just like the mall back home, only more crowded (with other tourists).

[rainbow4321]

56. I took my family there several years ago and we went into sticker shock

when we went to restaurants. Maybe we just picked the wrong places to go but when we asked for refills on our sodas, they were going to charge us for a soda each time we got a refill. The ONLY place that didn't do that was Hard Rock Cafe, I believe.
And we weren't going to fancy places while we were there. Eating dinner was so expensive we would grab something on the go from a street food cart for lunch so we could save money for a sit down dinner each night.
Go to a restaurant where we live (in TX)and refills are included in the original drink order price..so whether we get one refill or 4, we pay no more than whatever the soda price is on the menu.

[No Elephants]

72. Soft drinks are very bad for you anyway. j/k (Well, they are, but the comment is

not intended seriously.)

My favorite beverage happens to be water and NYC has, IMO, great tap water. So, I am not familiar with the refill issue. But, that is what I meant about NY being a great place to live and a rough place to visit and paying through the nose when you visit. If you lived there, you would know where to get a very enjoyable meal for a reasonable amount.

I have visited Houston and San Antonio, though, and they both do have some neat restaurants at reasonable prices. I enjoyed my visits, but I LOVED living in NY. Nothing like it, really, although my current home (Boston) has grown on me.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinrobot]

42. Obviously, if you can make it in New York...

...you can make it anywhere. Sorry to paraphrase, but it's very true.

[No Elephants]

45. I wonder if the timing of this "report" has anything to do with the proposed cap

on Wall Street salaries?

[mitchum]

51. I enjoy visiting, but it no longer produces culture of any significance...

it's a long ways downhill from Coltrane, Glass, and Verlaine to a bunch of trust fund twits cranking out generic indie rock.

You know that's the truth.

[Stephanie]

54. And what is the U.S. culture capitol, in your mind?

Do tell.

[mitchum]

59. It is fragmented...New York WAS arguably the US cultural capitol...

(one could also make strong arguments for Los Angeles, New Orleans, and Detroit in terms of specifically "US culture")
and it is still a great place to go CONSUME culture that is "visiting", but more often created in other places.
However, there is quite a difference between consumption and production, isn't there?

[Stephanie]

63. You don't make the case

You seem to be arguing that there IS no cultural capital, since you say that New York WAS it and now it's just sort of, you know, everywhere. But the fact is, for art, music, dance, theater, literature, fashion - New York is not just the showcase but the source. You really can't pretend otherwise. No other U.S. city even comes close.

[mitchum]

64. No, you are confusing a MARKETPLACE for a LABORATORY

[Stephanie]

65. I absolutely am not.

Name another city with more dance companies, more theater companies, more galleries, more active artists, writers, musicians, etc. than here. It's simply fact that more art is created here than any other U.S. city. How can you deny that?

[mitchum]

66. Name me anything INNOVATIVE that has come FROM there in the past couple of decades

hell, even London has replaced it as the center for trendy visual art.

[Stephanie]

70. You keep dodging the question.

I asked you what U.S. city is the cultural capital, if it's not New York. If you want to argue about the New York contemporary art scene vs. London that's quite a change of subject.

[mitchum]

94. Do you know the meaning of the word "fragmented"?

There is no longer a locus. There is no longer a centralized "creative capital" in the US.
Now answer my question.

Look, I understand your point of view. If I were paying 3 grand for 600 square feet, I also would want to think that I was living in Florence during the Rennaisance...

[Stephanie]

124. I bet I pay less than you do.

And you're deluded if you don't understand that NY is the cultural and intellectual capital of the U.S.

[mitchum]

144. Still dodging the question , eh?

Or are you just so busy at your endless rounds of going to the Met, etc...?

"Yo, Vinny... my cousin sez dis season's production of La Traviata is da fucking bomb! Let's grab a slice and get dere early!"

[Stephanie]

146. That's charming.

Good bye.

[babythunder]

154. Stephanie thank god for you in this thread

some of the nonsense being spewed about NYC is really mind boggling.

[babythunder]

182. Seriously where do you get your "information" from

the only two artistic industries I'll concede that NY isn't the center is music because depending on forms of music different cities act as the most important. And movie making particularly if you want to make bull-shit big budget films LA is the place to be. But publishing, Art, dance, opera, high fashion (not some poptart's line), culinary arts, and theater NYC is absolutely the best and to argue against this is pretty ridiculous.

[bettyellen]

114. it;s irrelevant because NYC is BOTH those things, and more so for music art and theater than

any other city in the nation. this fragmented story you've cooked up is bullshit, it;s just a story YOU want to believe because you can;t grasp things are going on outside of your little world and you have no idea. you read in a magazine something you were never part of ended and the magazine doesn't know what's next "it;s fragmented " LOL.
NY is a creative beehive, same as ever, it is constantly changing,always evolving there are always new artists emerging, and old established ones returning. most towns have neither, LOL. tons of great music events and and art 24/7. and obviously, peopel who can and do appreciate that about NY find a way to live with with the trade off, lack of lawns and porches and such.

[bettyellen]

96. you're kidding right? 3/4 of the creative people in this country live and produce here

[mitchum]

99. Really? Source for that 3/4 figure? Or is that just provincial boosterism?

Also, there is a difference between "truly creative" and working in a "creative industry"

[bettyellen]

109. this is where creative people come from all over the country- always has been becuase they know they

find a community of like mindeds... where do YOU think they go? when they want to be famous or sell out, they go to LA.

[mitchum]

111. Okay...so that figure was just based in provincial boosterism...

and a sentimental nostalgia for what once was

[bettyellen]

115. you have the nostalgia bug kid, if you're spewing that "fragmented" crap....

i'm sure you think like NYC in the 70s or 80s was all that... but omigod not now. LOL.
a lot of people get stuck in their glory days and can;t accept anything new. it's kinda sad. and boring.
*yawn*

[bettyellen]

117. count the shows dude, tally the events listings.... and compare them to your home town.

yeah having 20X the amount of cool things to do at any given time really sucks for us!
keep telling yourself it's all fragmanted, then you won't feel so bad you;re missing it!

[mitchum]

141. There ya go...by your own admission, it's a CONSUMER'S paradise...

and I wholeheartedly agree...
I go up every few months to visit friends, see shows, go to MOMA, etc...
I enjoy the city, but I also enjoy my amusement at the provincial boosterism of you guys. Do you realize that it is no different than "Texas is the best!" or whatever...?
No difference at all

[bettyellen]

150. nope, i said it's both. there are amazing bands to see every nght of the week and maybe

a quarter of them are NY based. pretty much same as in any of the arts, a pretty decent percentage of them are natives. and friends of friends. they live and work here. '
LOL, in Texas people (other than Austiners) never even heard of half the musicians artists writers we brush up against every day here. that's okay, i know people who work on wall street and they are entirely inaware as well. takes all kinds!
they never heard of em, and like you they donlt know - literally as you have prved here- have no idea what they are missing.
i know hannah montana aint from around here.... but i did see marty scorecese and lou reed out and about in just the past month people i'm guessing you've heard of.

[tinrobot]

143. Los Angeles is full of creatives as well

In addition to the entertainment business, our fashion industry is actually bigger than New York's.

[mitchum]

145. True...and deep down the NYC provincials know that...despite their protestations

[bettyellen]

148. your fashion industry is largely a nightmare- the pay isnlt there, i knew design pros who

had no paid time off no sick leave or benefits, they take advantage of loopholes and treat college grads like temp factory employees.
jobs in my area pay about 40% less there.
no thanks.

[babythunder]

153. Your kidding right comparing LA's

fashion industry to NY? See that's the difference you guys refer to it as the entertainment industry while NYers call it the "Arts". So yes I suppose LA does have New York City beat on that front.

[Dreamer Tatum]

149. High five of a LIFETIME. Right on. nt

[MadHound]

68. One of the reasons that I consider NYC, or frankly any place on the eastern seaboard

To be a nice place to visit, but certainly not a good place to live. I like where I'm at, out in the boonies, but within a thirty mile ride of a great cultural center.

But hey, to each their own. Some people thrive on NYC, I thrive living out in the country.

[dendrobium]

69. Manhattan is impossible in terms of cost of living.

I lived in New York briefly and I still have close family there. Rents are much cheaper in the Bronx and Brooklyn and the Apartments are bigger too. The Bronx is a quick subway ride away from Manhattan when you want to go shopping or the theatre or whatever.

What I always found amazing is how racially segregated New York is. Most of the white people insist on apartments in Manhattan- with three or 4 people sharing a tiny apartment. The idea of going up to the Bronx horrifies them. My Mom and I used to laugh on the number 6 train in the evenings going uptown that almost all the white people would get off the train before 96th street. By the time you got past there, only blacks and latinos were left on the train. Of course now housing costs are so high, many are now "discovering" these apartments in the Bronx and so rents in these areas are rising sharply too. Harlem used to be cheap to live in because it was not the trendy part of Manhattan. But now Gentrification has changed that.

I love New York City though. It is the greatest city on Earth.

[bettyellen]

98. LOL- I grew up iding the 6 and it was integrated back then and still is very integrated...

sounds like your "crowd" who insist on living inmanhattan put some wrong ideas in your head. most of the people i know who were afraid to leave manhattan were from east jesus.NYers are not scared of each other.. the newbies and tourists are.

[dendrobium]

112. New York is racially segregated.

The point was everybody was on the train coming from work but the White people got off before the train got to Harlem and the Bronx. This does not mean no white people live in the Bronx or that no black people live in Manhattan. Racism in the north takes a more subtle form. Of course New Yorkers of all races mingle but many New York Whites do not want to live in a black neighbourhood or let their precious children go to a Public school with "those " children. Maybe I have a clearer perspective because I am an outsider and it was obvious to me that Manhattan is "white' while the boroughs are black and latino.

I have no "crowd" in Manhattan. I never lived in Manhattan. I only worked there. I am not saying that New York is some apartheid hell. I am telling you that there are still racial issues there in terms of a black person trying to rent in a "white building". I have seen this myself.

[bettyellen]

120. i grew up in a very integrated neighbrhood - that you're assuming had no white people

i'm just telling you, i lived there, I still visit there- by train- and i am white. i guess you didnlt notice my brother or me on that 6 train because we did stay on past 96th street.
:eyesroll:
i was commenting on the people you said knew who;d rather live in tight quaters than venture outside among non whites. the only people i ever met who were so close minded and afraid of the bouroughs of non whites grew up elswehre. i have never been to another city in the usa that was as integrated as New York. definealey not in the south or the west. or north of us, LOL.

[dendrobium]

128. New York has no racial problems?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE1DF103AF936A25754C0A964958260

I can only give you my perspective. I disagree with your opinion. There was no need for an eyeroll.

[bettyellen]

130. you're the one making broad sweeping BS statements, and you're doing it again- so bug off

reading this post I relaize you're just not worth it, if you're going to spew bullshit and them put words in my mouth. i grew up in a very mixed neighborhood- it was not solidly black hispanic or white, people mixed... it was not perfect by any means- but segregated? not at all- not one fucking bit.
you're blowing BS, and you've now been corrected by someone who's there.

[dendrobium]

138. Having lost the argument you have become rude

I don't know why you have reacted so emotionally to the prospect that New York is segregated. I will respect your desire to end the discussion however and wish you all the best.

[bettyellen]

147. it's really pretty sad + fucked up how you put words in people's mouth and think you "won" something

or that you deserve civility as a response. you haven't earned it. at the very least, your a fabulist. you should check that shit at the door.

[dendrobium]

156. Why are you so angry?

We have a disagreement. I don't know you and you don't know me. Now you are accusing me of being a fabulist! This is a strange method of arguing your point. Since you say I don't deserve civility, it is best that we terminate this conversation. All the best to you again.

[BklnDem75]

157. You do know that article's 17 years old, right?

Things have changed since then. Harlem is such a mixed bag right now, you can't even call it a black neighborhood anymore. Same goes with many parts of Brooklyn such as Bedford Stuyvesant, Flatbush, Bushwick and even East New York. If things changed drastically over the past 8 years, why assume nothing's changed since that article? Of course, there's some neighborhoods and gated communities that's pretty segregated, but that's in every area of the country.

[dendrobium]

161. I lived in New York in the early 1990's

That is why I used that old article to back up what my perceptions at the time were.And I did say that Harlem has been "gentrified" so it is more mixed now. Especially since President Clinton moved his offices there, it has made Harlem "trendy". I still have close family in New York City and there is a feeling that housing discrimination still goes on.

But perhaps you are right and some neighbourhoods are more integrated now. I still hear horror stories about black people who show up to rent an apartment and are told that it is taken already but the next day, their white friends are told the place is still available. I hope that this horrible practice is almost extinct now.

[Stephanie]

122. You're arguing with a white girl (bettyellen) who grew up in the Bronx

Are you sure you want to keep going with this argument?

[dendrobium]

126. I find this denial amazing.

I never said that no white people lived in the Bronx. I can only give you my observations as a black immigrant in the early 1990's. My understanding is that in the 1960's, the Bronx had many white residents. But with the influx of blacks and latinos, there was white flight.

I thought it was an acknowledged fact that New York is racially segregated. It is amazing to hear that it really is a racial paradise after all. I don't know how I have offended you or what I did to earn an eyeroll from bettyellen. Maybe being a white girl has given her a different view of New York. I could start going on about my various experiences in New York which showed me that it is in fact a very racialised place. But that would give the erroneous impression that I dislike New York. In fact I do love New York and New Yorkers. I am just saying there are warts too.

[bettyellen]

131. who said "racial paradise" ?? wtf are you talking about?

[glinda]

85. Only way I lived there in the 80's was squatting with no electric. Ate at my job.

[AlCzervik]

97. it's like San Francisco, if i had the money i would live there but it's cost prohibitive

for us.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

110. Another great American city.

Housing is insane, but I had the best dim sum of my life -- for a measly $20!

[AlCzervik]

113. my favorite city in the world, London is my 2nd favorite.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

116. I jockey between NYC and San Fran for #1, with London rounding out the Top 3.

I guess Paris would be #4. I haven't been to Prague or Vienna yet ... some day.

[AlCzervik]

118. i went to Prague last spring, it is as picturesque in person. A really amazing city.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

137. These pretzels are making me thirsty.

I mean, this thread is bringing out the wanderlust in me.

[Stephanie]

123. I love San Francisco

It's expensive but it's worth it.

[dustbunnie]

103. I had my first apt in NYC. It was amazing!

It was a lovely pre-war building near the Museum of Natural History. The kitchen was so narrow, when you opened the oven door, it scraped the wall and you had to stand aside and sort of whip the roast into it. No dishwasher.

The first night I moved in, after spending the day painting my baseboards pink, I fell into bed and not ten minutes later a large, looming shadow appeared and its owner proceeded to jimmy open the french door that led out onto the fire escape. (My apt was one of those 600 sq foot jobbies, so living room became bedroom at night.) Dude walked right in and stood at the foot of my bed. Stared at my petrified self for about 30 seconds then called out a woman's name. After another few seconds of staring down at the quivering, mute figure under the sheets he said something like "sorry, wrong apartment" and left from whence he came.

Each day is an adventure in NYC. When waiters sing happy birthday at a restaurant, the quality of the sound is operatic. I've received excellent advice I've never forgotten from the cabbies who drove me around.

But yes, way too expensive, and hard to settle down because there's too much stimulation. I'd rather go back for long weekends and gorge on it.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

108. That's a funny story...

I'm happy it didn't have a Law & Order:SVU ending!

[dustbunnie]

119. Me too, believe me! Counted myself lucky.

But for years, my girlfriends and I tried to figure out who in the building was having one of those odd "intruder fantasy" relationships. :D

[WorseBeforeBetter]

136. Ha ha .. yeah, that wouldn't do it for me.

But who knows what gets people off. :P

(I just noticed you're "new" ... welcome to the community.)

[dustbunnie]

175. Only in NY!

:D

Thank you for the welcome!

[BklnDem75]

159. Gotta watch out for those pre-war apartments.

They never tell you which war they're referring to. From the ones I've seen, I'd guess the Revolution.

[dustbunnie]

173. Bwahaha...

You're so right! :rofl:

I might have thought the Revolution as well, except our building still had "directions to the bunker" signs next to the laundry room!

Useless but interesting info: There are still some "pre-war" buildings on the way, way upper east side that have hackenkreuz-es embedded into the facades next to the gargoyle images. You only notice those things when you're new and still look up as you walk the streets. New Yorkers always look down.

[jzodda]

165. Welcome to my life

and I don't even live in Manhattan, but a few miles north of the city in Westchester county. Same general parameters apply- Having been here most of my life I can't wait to try a less expensive place to live. Very tired of the long and expensive commute, the very high taxes and the expense of almost everything.

I travel to Arizona on a fairly regular basis, about 45 miles outside of Phoenix and I am always amazed at how much house and acreage you can buy for your money, the low taxes, the price of gas and food and other items. The lack of noise, all the stars in the night sky and the friendly people.

If you are rich, or young and single NYC is awesome. Fall outside those categories and it's not nearly as nice IMO. Some people love it anyway. No matter how poor or regardless of any circumstances my Dad would never ever leave NYC. For him the entire world is in it's 5 boroughs. For me, the opposite.

[Norrin Radd]

167. Seattle is better.

[Chovexani]

169. LOL

Keep telling yourself that.

PS: How's that basketball team--oh, right.

:hide:

[Norrin Radd]

176. I'm originally from the Pittsburgh area. My team is doing alright.

;)

[Chovexani]

177. I really don't have room to talk

Considering the Knicks...but I can't help a dig at the Sonics, uh, "Lightning". :D

[Norrin Radd]

185. Glad to see them gone, as their owner kept threatening to

take his marbles and go elsewhere if we didn't lavish him with tax money to build a new arena, even though they had a perfectly good one.

[snooper2]

171. Things I couldn't have if I lived in New York...

My relaxing exercise


blower for fall


Trimmer to get the edges :)


my Old School stand up jetski


I don't think I would be allowed to run my compressor :rofl:


Just put the parts washer in the bedroom


Guess I don't need my chainsaw either


no more smoker parties in the backyard

http://images.motorcyclecruiser.com/roadtests/lg+2004_yamaha_vstar_650_classic+front_side_view.jpg
guess I have to give up the bike as well


Always did think my lathe would look good in the kitchen though :rofl:

[mattfromnossa]

179. yep! it ain't cheap living in new yawk.

I'm from long island. :hi:

[Hardrada]

186. The rise in rents has driven out the places that interest me. I refer

to the used and rare bookshops which used to be in Manhattan in some profusion. But the same can be said for Boston and Philadelphia. The city of NY itself was a trip!
I think what some of us are looking for is kind of an Ideal City that we invent in our minds and no city can reach that ideal or we remember a city that was and can't ever come back so it is unfair to knock contemporary NYC for not matching up to some unrealizable ideal or some still bright but now fading memory.