Binyam Mohamed Torture Evidence 'Hidden From Obama'

[kpete]

Source: Guardian UK

Binyam Mohamed torture evidence 'hidden from Obama'

Letter to president about Binyam Mohamed was blanked out, say campaigners as they prepare for Guantánamo prisoner's release to UK
Read the letter
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/02/11/CSSlettertoObama.pdf

US defence officials are preventing Barack Obama from seeing evidence that a former British resident held in Guantánamo Bay has been tortured, the prisoner's lawyer said last night, as campaigners and the Foreign Office prepared for the man's release in as little as a week.

Clive Stafford Smith, the director of the legal charity Reprieve, which represents Ethiopian-born Binyam Mohamed, sent Obama evidence of what he called "truly mediaeval" abuse but substantial parts were blanked out so the president could not read it.

In the letter to the president , Stafford Smith urges him to order the disclosure of the evidence.

Stafford Smith tells Obama he should be aware of the "bizarre reality" of the situation. "You, as commander in chief, are being denied access to material that would help prove that crimes have been committed by US personnel. This decision is being made by the very people who you command.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/11/binyam-mohamed-release-torture-letter

---

Gitmo Detainee’s ‘Genitals Were Sliced With A Scalpel,’ Waterboarding ‘Far Down The List Of Things
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3730171&mesg_id=3730171

[terisan]

1. The plausible deniability ploy. nt

[Wizard777]

6. No there running the old UFO files rouse they pulled on President Carter.

President Carter vowed to release everything the government had on UFO's. When Carter asked to see what the CIA had on UFO's. He was told that UFO files are on a need to know basis and Presidential curiosity doesn't form a need to know.

Sincerely,
GEORGE BUSH SR.
Director of the CIA :wow:

So after idiot son releases the identity of a covert agent. Now Obama like Carter isn't President enough to know some things. Ooookay. Obama cannot tollerate this in the least. When information is withheld from him. He needs to take off the kid gloves and come out swinging hard.

[tblue37]

11. He needs to frickin' "fire MacArthur." nt

[No Elephants]

21. WOW! And Carter did not replace Poppy on the spot? Jeez, who knows? We might have been

spared Bush 41 AND Bush 43, if Jimmeh had done the correct thing.

[Wizard777]

29. I have NEVER seen Jimmy visibly angry. Like he was when he was commenting on 43.

I used to think he was incapable of getting angry. He was almost like a Buddah in that respect. As the republicans say, "hindsight is 20/20." I think he is now well aware of the treachery he and our country has been subjected to by the Bush's. I still believe that the Hostage crisis like the gas crisis was entirely orchastrated by Bush and his CIA and OIL Cronies. I also believe Junior tooks some plays from daddy's playbook with 9/11. Be it MIHOP LIHOP he was involved and ready to milk it for all it's worth.

[sofa king]

34. I think he was already replaced.

H. W.'s term as DCI officially ended on January 20, 1977, the day Jimmy Carter took office. Bush might have told Carter to shove off while Carter was President-elect, though.

For Director of Central Intelligence, Carter nominated his old Annapolis schoolmate, Stansfield Turner, who had a very low opinion of human intelligence operations--and more particularly, the operators--and proceeded to fire off a good chunk of them. They probably weren't gone for very long.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

2. oh...

205. Binyam has described his ill-treatment in Morocco to his lawyer in several phases: an initial "softening up"; a routine "circle of torture"; and eventually a "heavy" abuse involving mental torment and the infliction of physical injury. In the first few weeks of his detention he was repeatedly suspended from the walls or ceilings, or otherwise shackled, and brutally beaten: “They came in and cuffed my hands behind my back. Then three men came in with black ski masks that only showed their eyes… One stood on each of my shoulders and the third punched me in the stomach. The first punch… turned everything inside me upside down. I felt I was going to vomit. I was meant to stand, but I was in so much pain I’d fall to my knees. They’d pull me back up and hit me again. They’d kick me in the thighs as I got up. They just beat me up that night… I collapsed and they left. I stayed on the ground for a long time before I lapsed into unconsciousness. My legs were dead. I could not move. I’d vomited and pissed on myself.”

206. At its worst, the torture involved stripping Binyam naked and using a doctor’s scalpel to make incisions all over his chest and other parts of his body: “One of them took my penis in his hand and began to make cuts. He did it once and they stood for a minute, watching my reaction. I was in agony, crying, trying desperately to suppress myself, but I was screaming. They must have done this 20 to 30 times, in maybe two hours. There was blood all over. They cut all over my private parts. One of them said it would be better just to cut it off, as I would only breed terrorists.”

207. Eventually Binyam began to co-operate in his interrogation sessions in an effort to prevent being tortured: “They said if you say this story as we read it, you will just go to court as a witness and all this torture will stop. I could not take any more… and I eventually repeated what they read out to me. They told me to say I was with bin Laden five or six times. Of course that was false. They continued with two or three interrogations a month. They weren’t really interrogations – more like trainings, training me what to say.”

208. Binyam says he was subjected to a second rendition on the night from 21 to 22 January 2004. After being cuffed, blindfolded and driven for about 30 minutes in a van, he was offloaded at what he believes was an airport. Again, Binyam’s description matches the "methodology" of rendition described earlier in this report: “They did not talk to me. They cut off my clothes. There was a white female with glasses – she took the pictures. One of them held my penis and she took digital pictures. When she saw the injuries I had, she gasped. She said: ‘Oh my God, look at that’.”

209. The second rendition of Binyam Mohamed took place within the "rendition circuit" that I have identified in this inquiry. The aircraft N313P, operated on behalf of the CIA, is shown in my official data to have flown from Rabat to Kabul in the early hours of 22 January 2004. Two days later, as part of the same circuit, the same plane flew back to Europe and was used in the rendition of Khaled El-Masri177.

210. Binyam Mohamed’s ordeal continued in Kabul, Afghanistan, where he was held in the facility he refers to as “The Prison of Darkness”178 for four months. Detention conditions in this prison amount to inhuman and degrading treatment. In addition, forcing prisoners to remain in painful positions, sleep alteration, sensory deprivation and other recognised "enhanced interrogation techniques"179 are known to be deployed there routinely by the United States military and its partners. At various times, Binyam was chained to the floor with his arms suspended above his head, had his head knocked against the wall and describes “torture by music”, involving the sounds of loud rap and heavy metal, thunder, planes taking off, cackling laughter and horror sounds that amounted to a “perpetual nightmare”.

211. Up until his transfer by helicopter to Bagram at the end of May 2004, Binyam was not allowed to see daylight. He was persistently interrogated and told about terrorist plots and activities in which he was accused of involvement. He was subjected to irregular eating patterns and ”weird” sessions with psychiatrists.

212. In a detention facility at Bagram Air Base, Afghanistan, Binyam was forced to write out a lengthy statement prepared by the Americans. The content of the statement is unknown to us. Binyam has told his lawyers that he wrote and signed this document in a state of complete mental disarray: “I don’t really remember , because by then I just did what they told me. Of course, by the time I was in Bagram I was telling them whatever they wanted to hear.”

213. The case of Binyam Mohamed is sufficient grounds for an urgent and decisive change of course in the international effort to overcome terrorism. The Council of Europe is duty-bound to ensure that secret detentions, unlawful inter-state transfers and the use of torture are absolutely prohibited and never resorted to again.

214. It remains to be seen whether a Military Commission process will decide for or against Binyam Mohamed. The only certain legacy of this case is the deeply disturbing recognition that a human being has, in his own words, been completely dehumanised: ”I’m sorry I have no emotion when talking about the past, ‘cause I have closed. You have to figure out all the emotional part; I’m kind of dead in the head.”


http://assembly.coe.int//Main.asp?link=http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc06/edoc10957Div-04.htm

[Diclotican]

4. Torn_Scorned_Ignored

Torn_Scorned_Ignored

If this is true, and I do not doubt it, this is prove enough that the US are not just fighting terrorist from abroad, they are in fact making terrorist as they go.. How many thousands, maybe ten of thousands of arabic people have not this single story been breeding new terrorists, who in pure anger would do what ever necessary to fight back.. How many World Trade Center would the West endure, because of this history?. How many World Trade Center will The United States of America have to endure because of this single history..?..

This is just disgusting, and if YOU in the US are not willing at least to put the criminals in a court, so the US at least can get the real truth what have been happening the last 8 year, then in the face of the rest of the world, You are NO LEADER anymore.. You can not treat people this way, and just let everything goes just because you have a New Administration in Washington DC. The world have a longer memory than the US sees to have, and would might even tell you this sometimes in the future, when the document about misuse, abusing raping, torture and the rest is been acknowledged in the rest of the world.. Just because the american Public at large are not been allowed to know what have been happening in their name, is not the same as the rest of the world are that Stupid..

And, President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest of the Administration should never try to visit Europe again, not after 20 january 2009.. If the International Criminal Court ever get the case against the 12 most powerfully accused criminals in the former Administration of mr Bush, then they would have to face the music if ever get their feet on the ground in more than 100 country... The Only country they are free in, is ironic enough in the US. Because there they are to afraid of what will came to the surface to really get to the bottom of things.. Even when this type of histories are coming to light, the american Media, and for the most part also the american public are not willing to get the truth, if it so is been put on billboard at Times Square in New York City itself.. If the pictures of this man was been shown on the Billboard who is surrounding Times Square for a half a hour, then might some american are facing the truth. But I really doubt that the commercial owners want this to happened because they are "afraid" of what came next...

This is criminal, and they all deserve to be put into custody, the whole Administration of mr Bush should have been arrested the same day, or the next day mr Obama was sworn into office.. And I am very afraid that Obama either do not want, or do not dear to make the order to prosecute the last administration. You newer know what came out of it.. But in any cases the TRUTH will came out sooner or later.. And it Will not be more pleasant with the year to come either.. Better to face the music now, than to face it down a decade or two down the road..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

23. Diclotican

http://assembly.coe.int/CommitteeDocs/2006/20060606_Ejdoc162006PartII-FINAL.pdf

Thank you. It is criminal.

This is just disgusting, and if YOU in the US are not willing at least to put the criminals in a court, so the US at least can get the real truth what have been happening the last 8 year, then in the face of the rest of the world, You are NO LEADER anymore..



At the link: Alleged secret detentions in Council of Europe member states report.

[Diclotican]

25. Torn_Scorned_Ignored

Torn_Scorned_Ignored

true, We and you have to get them arrested, and if proven gulty also put into prison, not to some of the houses they are living in now, but to the Levanworth Prison complex.. That should be a nice place for the madness of mr Bush to end his life.. And then maybe even US can stand up, to be what it once was, a leader in progress.. But then you have to get rid of a whole group of peopole like Rush and CO who hate progress maybe more than they hate muslims..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

30. Diclotican

It is so nice to find you on DU again, I haven't seen any posts of yours for a while. I do think about you because you do not live in America.

Sometimes things happen in Europe and elsewhere and you never know.

Your English is very good. I do remember when you were new here, your english wasn't too bad then but you did have some problems.
With all my heart I hope this country, The United States of America truly is the Land of The Free and The Home of the Brave, proving it by arresting these criminals and prosecuting.

In Europe people took to the streets, by the thousands...sometimes facing brutal police encounters. Because of the injustice of the policies of America and the Bush Administration. Exactly the things this thread is about.
The facts are known, the evidence in billions of documents.

For years I like many, wondered why we in America didn't take to the streets by the hundreds of thousands. I don't know why now.
I think the nation was in a state of fear so deep it kept most of us from that kind of action.

It may have been a Blessing though.

I have a vision of those FEMA camps located throughout our country, huge prison camps...concentration camp oriented, getting filled up by the tens of thousands. Old people, young people, educated people, poor patriotic people, even children. Rounding us up. Using their lists of belligerents gathered through illegal wire taps and surveillance once the arrests began.
Then Bush would have achieved his Mission Accomplished. Dictator. I do believe that was the goal. Taking to the streets was what they were waiting for.



Stay safe Diclotican.

[Diclotican]

33. Torn_Scorned_Ignored

Torn_Scorned_Ignored

It is always nice to meet old friends here on DU you know;).. Have been busy/sick for a while so I have had not had the time/health to really make a effort to write here on DU. Or anywhere else for that matter.. Got the flue, and have not had it since 1998, so when I got it, it really was getting to me... Was lying down for more than a week, and that is not often I do.. But now I am far better, and are back in the game so to say:P.

Thank you for your word about my english, it is going better and better, even that I know it is not that god, but yes I have had more problems than I have today I guess.. I do hope, as you do that the UNITED STATES of AMERICA once again can be the home of the brave, home of the free, and that your government dear to put this heinous Administration where they belong - in prison.. Every one of them deserve a long time in the prison - after all the documents who should have been on public record off course. If the american public are willing to take the road who we know is the right, then US once again can claim some moral standing in the world. Today US have no moral standing in the world - and as more are coming to light about abuses, more and more country would if not turn their back on US, at least be far less willing to play ball with you.. The last 8 year have been horrible to say at least to the world, and to the US.

After 11 sept 2001, I do believe you in US to be to scared to really stand up for what you believed in. if half of all of you had stand up, and marched in the street with us in Europa in 2002-2003 then Mr Bush wouldn't dear to go to war. Because if he had known, that 150 million americans was against the war, and that 150 million was marching in the street, not just in Washington DC but in EVERY MAJOR CITY in the US... It would be impossible for them to go to war.. I do not believe mr Bush to be the man who ordered 9/11, but I do believe he to be the man who put into order something that was been planed for a long time in the shadows.. The Neo-Conservative thing thanks is no less than the nazi-party of the 21 century, and most of the bigger shoots in the neo-conservative ideology are no less than traitors to everything US once was standing for.. They have poisoned everything US once was standing for, and in the end ruined your amazing country in the proses.. The Thief's and pirates are sitting in their mansions, and just dying of lafter about the ordinary american, who have to leave their home, leave everything they love, because the economy is going down the pipe.. If YOU there in US are not doing something about it, you would soon be seeing as the new slaves all of you. Not just black, but every single of you, who can be mistreated, and fired at will, Because no one dear to fight back against the Power.. If you think the middle ages in Europe was bad - just sit down and wait, it will came you sooner than you, and someone like it..

The FEMA camps, who maybe is located throughout your country, big prison camps, concentration caps oriented, can still be something of the future. Even that I doubt it will be under Obama... But the former Administration of mr Bush was working pretty hard to make it a possibility when they was in power. And we have for the record a President who claimed everything would be more easy - if US was a Dictatorship, and he the Dictator.... Off course, if he had been the Dictator - many ten of thousands had to be arrested, and been put into prisoners.. Like the nazis was doing it in the 1930s.. But of course, if a modern Dictatorship is to function, it have to be scary enough to the rest to be in line, like it was in Germany and Soviet Union.. Even children was been rounding up, and arrested.. In Germany the children and everyone who was not of "RIGHT race" or not usable was just killed.. Even that I do have some problems that it will end up like that in the US too....

Stay safe Torn_Scorned_Ignored, may peace and prosperity be with you and all your kind:)

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[Metta]

3. Outrageous stuff. Who's in charge here?

not them.

[Diclotican]

5. kpete

kpete

Then you KNOW thing is bad, when the United States President are not allowed to see the paper... But if he is so smart as everyone claim him to be, then I guess he have some way to circumvent the whole proses, to read the document he want to read anyway... Regardless of what the CIA want him to read and know

This is BAD because it is the same personal Obama should be in command off, is the same that deny you the document you need to have, to give a fair clue of if the man is guilty or not..

If I had been the President, I would get the person responsible for this into the oval office and give them some straight talk before fire them from their duties.. And then replace them with some who are little more willing to give the President of USA the document he need...

I fear that mr Obama would have a fight with the Military all the nest 4 or 8 year ahead.. It Will not be a easy task because the Military is after all, far bigger than just one President.. And if Obama really goes into a fight with the Military complex, it could end as with Kennedy... Deep-rooted enemies, where the top brass wanted the Kennedy-es out of the white house - and in 1963 they got their wishes... Even that I doubt that the military would dear to kill the President on their own.. But I would not put it past them.. Lesser Military forces have killed their leaders before, if they was to demanding and was not willing to play ball with the men in uniform.. You know, men with new toys..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[Wizard777]

7. I can assue President Obama that ignorance is not bliss.

Bliss is something that must be learned. It comes from the assurances and sense of security provided by full Knowledge.

[Diclotican]

9. Wizard777

Wizard777

Always better to _know_ the truth, even that the truth is bad, and hurt. Than to believe that if you do not know, then you can not be hurt.. If you do not know, you can be hurt when the truth appear. And the truth WILL appear sooner or later.. And I am afraid that histories like this, is just the tiny tip of the infamous Iceberg.. It is MANY more out there who can claim to have been tortured badly by your government, and in the year to came, I am afraid that many, many new histories would be known. And if no one is at least put into custody for a trial... Then with every story surfacing to the world.. The US moral standing in the world, would take a deep dive to the abyss... And you would also find more pictures..

Good lord, I for one believed US to have a far higher standard to what they do.. But this 8 year have truly given me another view of the "Moral standing" of where the US are today... Now I understand more my foster parents disagreement with US sometimes...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[Wizard777]

14. I think republicans have been hiding things in obscure government files that only other -

republicans can access. For all we know there is a document somewhere in a CIA filing cabinet that says The Republican Plan for Treason To Over Throw The US Constitution sitting in a folder marked UFO Top Secret. The Republicans in New York have been hiding thing from democrats and even fellow Republicans for decades. Like TV studios and printing offices. I don't think the New York Republicans invented this. They also do this in businesses. They hide books and reports and not even the best auditors can find them. Obama Promised to run a transparent administration. He can't do that if they are giving him redacted material that even he can't see. That's just ridiculous. But I trust Obama to straighten this out. He's a good man and he's a smart man. I trust Obama like my parents trusted FDR. But that all we can really do right now is trust him to do the right thing. I believe Obama will return that trust with information. Then we can give him even more trust and hopefully these exchanges will parlay into a second term for him. But we are well aware of the dire situation our integrity is in on the international front and yes it does concern us. But again we have to trust Obama to do the right things. If we think he's going the wrong way. We will speak out and he will listen. Because listening to us is exactly how he got to be President and he doesn't even try to deny it. So I have a lot of hope for the future right now.

No need to apologize. Your english is not as bad as you think it is. My english can be bad and it is my native language. But that's because I have a love of dialects. The vulgate is my favorite part of any language. I was able to understand what you were saying and the point you were trying to make. So we have effectively communicated and that's the whole point of any language.

[Diclotican]

18. Wizard777

Wizard777

True, I would guess that the republicans in US, have been hiding all sorts of evidence from the presidency the last 60 year or so .. Or at least since Eisenhower was in charge. Some says that Truman was the last President who really was in charge in the US.. After that the "other forces" have been in power, regardless of the Democratic party or the republican party have been in power.. And as you point out, specially the republican party have been very clever to hide everything from the others.. But I was not sure about that they have the possibility to hid whole TV studio's and printing offices.. They tend to be rather large.. On the other hand, you can use some of the many bunkers that was made in the cold war, and who I really doubt are on some public owned map to hide what ever you want to hide too.. Even if your bunkers are inside a City, you can still hide them pretty well. It is not that many year ago, a old complex of Bunkers was discovered in Oslo, and one of the gates out, was in the cellar of Grand Hotel, the same Hotel where the Nobel Peace prize is given out (well, it is in the City Hall, but they are sleeping at Grand Hotel) And it was made when the germans was "Master of Norway":. And the system is bigger than expected. A large chunk of Central Oslo are indeed build up as a bunker, where you can find everything from Shelter, to kitchen for up to 200 men.. And it was just discovered a few year ago, when they had to tear down a old wall in the cellar, to make rom for some more whine:evilgrin: And many other places in Oslo you can still get a clue how the government have been building some pretty impressive building, deep underground.. So I would not put the past the US, to have building a lot of this type of structures too.. If a rather poor country like Norway could build this type of structures, under the nose of the public - then I would guess that a Superpower like US have a great more experience with it than we have...

Isn't hiding books and reports a criminal case if detected?.. If the President of the United States would have the truth about how bad/good the economy really are are not this something he have the RIGHT to have on his desk in the morning?.. Or is this not the case.. I know that in Norway, the Prime Minister can demand every paper on his desk the next morning. If he have the power to do it then. Sometimes we have prime minister with less than stellar power and then paper have a tendency to just disapear... But in the end it just "Happened to be misplaced" and then coming to light again... But I guess that the Republican party have more experience with that type of things than Norway have.. At any cases I doubt that we ever would be trusted by the republican party, most because for the most part even our conservative parties is far to the left compared to what is the case in US. Even our Høyre (conservative) would be placed in the category like a Democratic Light party...

We have to trust Obama, like millions was trusting Franklin D. Roosevelt in the 1930s. It was not just american who take their trust in him, even here in Europe Roosevelt had some famous to his long before World War TWO where he really was getting popular in most european country. Occupied or not.. An din fact in Oslo, at the front of Akershus Fortress and Castle, we have a statue of FDR something that have never been doing before or after.. Just ONE single american President, who have been made a statue in Oslo since the war... So I guess that he might have had some good friends here too:).. It was maybe not bad, that our Royal family was been sent to the US, and our crown Prince Martha, was very friendly with both Ms Roosevelt and Mr Roosevelt.. Our current King have been tricycling inside the White House when he was a young kid, not everyone who can claim THAT I belive....

I hope mr Obama would straighting things up, even that it look bleak for the moment.. I guess he have a plan, a good plan to, like FDR who by the Right was demonised as something of a evil.. The same straight is happening today with Obama by the way
We have to just trust him, like my grand parents was trusting him, when the War was here and the germans was telling everyone who was willing to listing that they was the future for Norway.. We have to trust him, to the opposite is proven. Off course he have to disappoint someone, that even FDR did. But if he are doing his best, I am dam sure he would give us the Prof we need to get things going again. You can always HIDE your problems, but the problems have a ugly thing of coming to the surface sooner or later.. And in the last 8 year many thing have been hiding because it have been to uncomfortable to work it out when it was some what possible to handle.. Today the problems is just bigger, and harder to handle than before..
He have promised to get thing transparent, and it looks like he are doing it too. That is in itself a large difference from before I guess..And it Will be more and larger when the transparency of the government is given more light. The Right would both hate it, and love it because they can twist everything they can get their dirty hands on. So MR Obama have to be very clean in his action's compared to mr Bush, who just hide everything he get his hand on.. If mr Obama was to get everything mr Bush have been doing public, not even the die hard Republicans could possible say mr Bush was a great president... I for one would have worked out this "missing Hard drives" that the White house was doing their best to get out before Bush was leaving office.. I am no tech guru, but even I can get a "emty" hard rive to tell what was inside it by commercial available programs.. And I would guess that the US government have far better programs to their need than I have... I for one would love to have some of the programs that NSA have in Ford Made:evilgrin: They can really break everything who are given them...

I believe too, that mr Obama have a clue how bad the World are seeing at US for the moment, and I would guess that he would work hard, with his friends, with his allied, and with everyone who are willing to just sit down and talk to the US president. The integrity of US is just down the gutter, and would have been there for a long time, if you had manged to vote in McCain/Palin.. Then I would have build myself a cabin in the woods, and make the right preparation to run.. We have to trust him enough to, that he can do his job.. And in any cases mr Obama can not possible do a more worse job than mr Bush was in 8 year.. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do a worse job than he was doing it...
But he is just One man, even that he IS the President of the United States... And the Wolfe's are far greater in number than he is.. But if we are doing our share, from what ever corner of the world we are living in, the Wolfe's would be in far less number when his presidency is over... And that both internationally and nationally.. I have still hope for US, even that I was deeply shocked by the neo-conservative ideology, who I believed to be something of the past - as in never again after 1945...

Thank you, I try my best, even that I do know that my english is far from good. I made that line, because I was been hitting hard by the "grammar police" the first few times I was typing down something here. Just a little warning that I are not native to english, and therefore I hope that you who are are little gentle with me:)
And for the most part, I got the message across so I guess I am better than I believe:)

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[Wizard777]

24. Ah yes the old Trilateral Commission and Majestic 12 controling the military industrial complex.

Ahura Mazda does not tollerate impersonations of the Maji. Much like the Medicis. The Majestic 12 are defunct. They now go by Builderbergers. The Trilateral Commission are still around to some extent. But I'm hoping that Obama will start a more open and public department on the sciences. To help congress and the American people deal with intellectual terrorism. Like Smoking marijuana making your balls fall off. Most of what Harry J Anslinger did to make drugs illegal is now called terrorism. He used fear to create political change. Diseminated a lot of lies to supplement the intellectual terrorism. That's is intellectual dishonesty. Science isn't as simple as it used to be. Objects fall down. WOW! It's become far more complex than what it used to be. That complexity creates plenty of room for intellectual abuses. We need a department that ensures science is about truth and knowledge. Not lies and fear.

Ah you're a Swed. I once had the pleasure of meeting Queen Silvia in passing. I've also had the pleasure of meeting just about all the crowned heads of Scandanavia. King Olaf V (God rest his soul.) Then Prince Ivan. Queen Margette II and all the others. How ever I have not had the pleasure of meeting your King Carl Gustav XVI. But the eyes of the Magi are always upon the Crown and he who wears it. Good heart and good mind to King Gustav. Long may he reign. I've long admired the progressive attitude of the Swedish. You impress me as a kind no nonsense kind of people with an intricate fascination with the workings of the world and even the universe. I frequently check new American scientific concepts against those coming out of Sweden. I trust the Sweds because their pursuits of science is governed by truth not politics like ours sometimes is.

Let the grammar police be damned. I'm glad to have you on board and look foward to futher discussions in the future. Broken english and all. I don't know why they call it broken english. Your english works fine for me. :rofl: :fistbump:

[Diclotican]

27. Wizard777

Wizard777

For the record. I am _Not_ Swedish, I am from Norway. And the Nobel literature Prize is what you are thinking about I guess.. In Norway the Peace prize are given every year, and the lucky one is living at Grand Hotel.. And Oslo is the capital of Norway, not Sweden, that is Stockholm;):

You have meet our old King Olav V of Norway.. Cool;): He was a man who really WAS KING in every way he wanted to be it I guess. And he was our king from 1957 to 1991. Long for a sole life I guess.. His wife died before he was made king when our first modern King Haakon 7 died in 1957. And he never re-marriages.. Maybe because he doesn't feel for it I guess.. or that he really missed the woman in his life.. Anyway our current King is Harald V of Norway, and we sees to have a pretty impressive family because both Harald's kids have kids on their own now..
Have never meet King Gustav, but I guess he are doing it right, even when he is not to lucky about what he is telling everyone.. I would guess our own king Harald is more carefully for what he is saying in public anyway:). I guess both Harald and Gustav would reign for many year to came. And that the crown Prinz and crown princess (sweden have a princess as hair) would be king and queen the day the former died.. The magic from the Crown is really upon who wear it, that is true.. And both the Swedish Royal House and our own little Royal House have had some good kings after 1905.. I guess Haakon and Olav have the real magic as they was maybe the last REAL kings in Norway, but our own King Harald, do have made a name of himself, in a good way, even that he had to find himself a place in the beginning.. It is not easy to try to get your own feet on the ground, when you have always been in the shadow of a strong King like Olav was.. King Olav know his boundaries, but he was never afraid to tell everyone else, if he was offended and was feeling that "his highness" was in danger. He was deeply respected by everyone, even on the far left as long as I know it. And his father was pretty smart, when he in 1947 in radio was asked what we should be doing with the communist in Norway. He answered I am their King too, so why should we harm them":. He and the Royal Family was getting a lot og free bonuses that day, even from the same people who wanted to make Norway a Republic..

Sweden tend to be a no-nonsense kind of people. I hope we in Norway are like that too, even that I do not know if you ever had been in Norway before. Both country have a good educated population, and tend to not let religion get in the way of real science.. Sweden is maybe far better than Norway in many thing, but I guess we in Norway do have our knowledge about things too. And Norway and Sweden have been good friends for many year now, No war between Sweden and Norway since 1814 is the truth...
When you have the most important thing fixed, like our amazing health care system, who is a envy of the world (both Sweden and Norway and Denmark and Finland) and have been at peace for al long time you tend to be more in the habit of working with science than if you have not food on the table, and no roof on your head.. And Sweden have indeed some very good industry, both aeronautic or on ground, there Sweden is far ahead of Norway I am afraid..

True, let the grammar police be dammed, I would guess that many of them never would managed to write either swedish or Norwegian:P

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[Wizard777]

28. LMAO. Please excuse my bad geography.

I don't know why I mis-associate Oslo with Sweden. But once that bad connection is formed I guess it becomes a matter of a bad habit being hard to break. Olaf V was much more than a real king. He was real Viking. As a Child I always wondered what it would be like to meet Eric the Red or Leif Erickson. When I met Olaf I knew. I was satisfied that I had indeed met a real live Viking. Just everything about him screamed Viking. He was a big man that was not timid and carried himself very well. I'm 6' 11" he was nearly my size. I would guess him to have been about 6' 7" - 6' 9". But he was also a very gracious man. So I can understand why he was deeply respected. Even if you didn't know that he was the King of Norway. His presence commanded respect. You got a sense that there was nothing that could hold him back. He was much more than charming. He was charmed. God had gifted him greatly and it was easy to see.

I didn't get to meet to Harald. He wasn't with Olaf. He had Ivan with him. Maybe I'm having a senior moment and it was Harald. I'm also 77. Do you have a Prince Ivan? I'm not going to go consult The Book of Kings. I remember entering Harald For the Norse throne. If you do then it was Ivan. If not then it may have been Harald and I thought he bared some resemblance to Prince Ivan of Russia. But he had one his kids with him. It was decades ago and I was some what mesmerized by Olaf V. He had my full attention. He was a great man that is very hard to forget.

The Norwegians are a very adventurous people. That also makes you very good for science. That too is about exploring and discovery. Science should be like a second nature for the Norse. There are microcosms and macrocosms to conquer! LOL I hope to visit Norway one day. Maybe that will help me to properly associate Oslo with Norway instead of Sweden. Boy getting old sure isn't for sissies.

[Diclotican]

31. Wizard777

Wizard777

That is okay, most american have no clue where Oslo are, or that Oslo is a capitol of a whole country anyway:). But I can understand why you get that bad connection. And it is a bad habit to break for sure.

Yes our late King Olav was very much a king far more king that our current King I would say.. If you might have been put 1000 year ago in time, then you might have seen a king like Olav.. He was indeed a "viking-king" of sorts, even that he respected all the constitutional rules that sometimes maybe get him a head pain.. YOU know to always open our Parliament, and read from a speech that someone else you might not even can't stand have written. And you have to stand there and speak that, as you believe it and that it is you who have doing the writing.. Our King is "over the people" in the meaning that he have no voice when it came to politic, but I do have a feeling that Olav V, was a rather conservative man - in the good old meaning of the things.. And I for one believe him to be NOT found about the neo-cons..

A curious fact is that our King Olav, was born in England, and until Haakon 7 decided to be go to Norway to be the next King in modern times, was named not Olav, but Alexander Edward Christian Frederik And was a danish prince to 1905 when he and the little family was coming to Norway by boat.. Dear Maud who must have believed that she had came to the end of the world, because it was winter and very cold. Even in Slottet (the building where our family have been living for the last 100 year) it was dark, cold and sparsely refurnished, because the swedish King who left Norway in 1900s was taking most of things with them in the process.. The divorce between Norway and Sweden was pretty dirty, but we managed... And in 1929, Olav was married to Martha, a swedish princess.. So I guess it worked out in the end between the two country..

Yes, King Olav was a big man, I would put him in the liga of 1.90 meter or so. And he was indeed KING in any way. He was admired not just because of what he was doing under the war, when he was in London for the most part, and making sure that the British docent forgot that Norway too was occupied.. In fact he was little of a pain in the neck for many British officers, because he was doing more than just talking but working hard to get enough soldiers and equipment to the Norwegian oversea forces.. Who was both in Shetland, Scotland, England and in Canada. But also for the man he wa AFTER the war, specially after he was taking the crown and made a name for himself.. In fact he was deeply respected all the time, and was not to scary about walking the streets of Oslo all on his own.. And in 1973 when the Oil thing was happened, he was taking the tram out to Nordmarka to go skiing.. And he had been doing that for a long time before he was in the end discovered and a news paper was taking his picture and it was all over the news as something of a story.. Because HE would always have had a car with petrol on it. If not from the public petrol station, they would surly have given him what he needed by other means, aka the army had given petrol to his cars.. But he decided that it was not wort it when so many of Norwegian had to endure rationation of petrol.. And when he was asked if he was afraid of taking the tram out in the woods, he answered: Why should I be worry, I have 4 million bodyguards around me, so I do not need to be worry about it. Then you TRUST your subject pretty well.....

Our King Olav was very afraid of what happened in 1991, when US and UK (MOST OF) was going to war against Iraq. Our current King have claimed that Olav, who already was sick, was very fast dying because of worrying about the in pending war. Olav know what war was, and was not specially happy about it at all.. And he might believed it to be the start of something far more dangerous than just a little war against Iraq to liberate Kuwait - no less than the World War 3... And for a man who was been trying to be killed by the germans, to se what happening in the build up of forces in 1991, it would been seen as really worrying.. I for one would believe him to be scared to hell, in 2003 when US was going to BOMB Iraq..

I doubt we have had a prince named Ivan in Norway not as I know our record of Norwegian Kings from Harald Harfagre to the current King Harald V. But we do have a crown prince named Håkon, and maybe you are misunderstand that?. Or you might misunderstand Ivan with Harald.. But I do know that what is left of the Russian Emperors family do have a member who is named Ivan. Ivan are not exactly a Norwegian sounding name... It can be you have been with Olav, Harald, and the crown prince Håkon;). He is no kid anymore, a coupe older than I am in fact, he is born 20 of july 1973, and I am born 20 of july 1976:P.
Many was amazed by King Olav of Norway, he was indeed a great man, who was a man who know what he was, not just a civil servant, but the KING. And as you self have old, he treated himself as the king, and nothing less than the king to.. And even in my home, Olav was somewhat admired by most of us.. And even my foster father who was a republic light type of thing was sad, very sad when Olav was been told to be dead, and when we was seeing our king was putting into the last resting place, I was seeing some tears from his ayes.. And he was not a man who easily was crying..

I guess it is something in our genes. From our ancient history as vikings who we was discover everywhere, even came all the way to what is today New Foundland.. And it is absolutely a thing in the right direction, that we have a good educational system, not perfect by far, but we are doing it good here too.. And we have not let the religious thing going in the way of science. I hope you managed to visit Norway and Oslo someday. I would be more than pleased to guide you around to se some of our places;).
True, when you are old, you have not the same power to do everything you want to do, as in younger days;).

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[defendandprotect]

8. This isn't the first president to be betrayed by CIA and hope Obama understands that -- !!!

[Diclotican]

10. defendandprotect

defendandprotect

Absolutely true.. I hope mr Obama is smarter, far smarter than the forces who are there in the dark, and ready to betray him, if he are not carefull.. werry carefull..

I do hope that mr Obama have some close advicors, good friends who he trust 100 percent, and who he can get the suport he would need the next 4 year.. And I do belive he have a great suport in his wife, who by the way is one nice woman..:) If I was that lucy, to have a woman like that, I would get into bed every night, and thank the maker for the privilige of having that amazing wife and life companion.. And on the pictures they LOCK AS IN DEEP LOVE. And that is important if you are to survive the next 4 or 8 year, specially when the country you shoose to be president of, are in that turmoil as USA..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[defendandprotect]

12. Great to have someone from another country here . . .

to help us get our own heads screwed on correctly. I think we need to hear what

people from other nations think of us and what's been going on.

I think Obama is plenty smart, however, so was Ike -- but he was betrayed in major

ways by the CIA . . . in his overall policies and in specific events, like the U-22

flights which he had directed be shut down for months before the Paris Peace Talks.

JFK, of course, as well. I would suggest also Jimmy Carter in the hostage rescue

missions, at the least.

And while I heartily share all of these sentiments . . ..

I do hope that mr Obama have some close advicors, good friends who he trust 100 percent, and who he can get the suport he would need the next 4 year.. And I do belive he have a great suport in his wife, who by the way is one nice woman.. If I was that lucy, to have a woman like that, I would get into bed every night, and thank the maker for the privilige of having that amazing wife and life companion.. And on the pictures they LOCK AS IN DEEP LOVE. And that is important if you are to survive the next 4 or 8 year, specially when the country you shoose to be president of, are in that turmoil as USA..

You'll also remember the old saying: "You can only really be betrayed by those closest to you"--

I also agree re Michelle and trust her level-headness will keep her from getting redirected

into White House stuff that may be distractions rather than staying right with Obama and

ensuring that the right things are being done every day.

How did you get to DU, if I may ask?



Edited for this PS: The question remains why couldn't Ike move on those betraying him -- ?

And why Carter couldn't - ? Obviously, JFK planned to move on the CIA, but they got him first.

Carter is a little clearer -- they were so out in the open threatening him -- and finally

worked the "October Surprise" that they pretty much turned his administration into a circus.

[Diclotican]

16. defendandprotect

defendandprotect

United States of America can need all the help they can muster abroad, and if I can help, in my little way to make "some" sanity back into your country I would be more than happy to help.. Even that I doubt I would manage to do to much, but if I can at least give you some comfort, just being here..:evilgrin: I promise you, you are not alone about hoping to restore US to what it once was.. And I know the road ahead to do that is hard, steep and brutal.. But together it is possible to do it.

True, President Eisenhower was in many betrayed by his own.. The down shooting of U2 who originated from Bodø in Norway And was shoot down by the russian (I believe it to be SAM6 battery they was using then) And the political fallout of that spying was not pleasant, for the US, or Norway who was getting some icy letter from the russian foreign office.. If Eisenhower had get his will, the Paris talks should have going away anyway, and then, maybe then some of the cold war, haven't been that cold after all?.. Maybe it would be little more warmer at the worst part of the cold war if the two leaders had just managed to speak to each other in private.. Many wars had been stooped, if the leaders had just managed to sit down and speak to each other.. Or at least try to get a envoy between the parties...

And he WARNED about the military-industrial complex when he was leaving office Eisenhower, so I guess he tried at least, to give his successor a fair warning of about what he was about to encounter on his own.. And Kennedy was trying hard to rain in some of the most hard headed military officers, who really believed that US could win a nuclear standoff with Soviet Union... Well the US did have far more aircraft than the USSR had, but the russian had proved they do had the missile technology to send nuclear weapon to the US.. So even if US managed to somehow bomb Soviet, the Soviet missiles would give US a ugly reprisal if they ever tried...
And I do believe mr Eisenhower UNDERSTAND that more than the most generals, who believed the nuclear weapons to be little more than a convention tool to get the other part listening to what you have to say.
Like in the Korean war. Many generals was telling the President that, if he just used the nuclear weapon, the north korean would be put into line and for the most part allied forces would not be harmed..That they do not was thinking about, wat that USSR would be tempted to blow up some part of europe, just to get a message out to the US.. Do not use nuclear weapon. Or worse, put 4.5 million military trained forces into the korean pensulvania.. if you think the 1.5 chinese forces was bad, just think what 4.5 million soldiers from the red army, who at the point had real combat experience from Europe could do to the allied forces who was trying to not be thrown out in the sea....

President Kennedy on the other hand, heritages the bay of pigs, who failed miserably, and the start of the US intervention in the Vietnam civil war, who was fast a US war instead of just north and south fighting them selfs to the death... And even that mr Kennedy tried to end the war, he failed, specially because most american was scared to near death about the possibility that some one wanted to have another ideology, or another country than yourself at the time.. And at the time it might have seen logical to defend a "loyal allied" (The south) Even that the "friend" was less democratic than prefered..

But, even that Kennedy was doing some thing that was not smart, he was still a good president, compared to many after him, LBJ got hocked up in the Vietnam War. Even that he was trying to build his "great society" and was not reelected by own wishes. He screwed both, even that he Tried his best to build something that could be a bright future for the american public, a real safety net for they who was in need of it. If I do not are totally wrong LBJ was from a poor farmer family, and know well the danger of been poor in a country who had less public help, than Europe had right after WW2.. And this was in the 1960s, when the US was FAR richer than most European country..

I for one is less than impressed by the Warren report, who claimed Oswald to be the sole shooter of Kennedy.. Yes he had the gun, he might have triggered it to. But I doubt that just ONE bullet, can zig-zag 7 times between the President, and the next man who was sitting in the same car, and not be more destroyed than it was... And we all know that CIA was very clever to murder people they do not like, as they had been doing for many year in the cold war.. I have a feeling that in the year 2080 or so, the truth about the murder of Kennedy would came to light - and that some person in the "agency" was behind it.. Because Kennedy had ticket off a lot of powerfully persons in the year following 1963....

That is true to, you can really be betrayed by your closest friends - I know by experience who hurtfully that can be.. And I have a feeling that mr Obama must trust not just his advisor's, but also his mind himself.. Because he is in a mind field of enemies, who just want him to fail once, to get him killed.. For them it is worse than just that the fact that he is Democrat, but he is also a BLACK person.. And that is maybe worse, than the fact that he is a democratic President. Who in itself is bad, because they really was dreaming about "conservative majority" for the next 100 year or so... And then when the american public, who they believed to be cowards enough voted in a BLACK MAN the whole gang got berserk.. And in other forums I am on, some in norway too, they who still love mr Bush and the Neo-Con are going totally NUTS about how bad mr Obama are, and who terrible he are to the country, and who stupid he is and so on.. The same persons who claimed that mr Bush must have "some leverage" because he was new on the job, are fighting mr Obama nail and tail, long before he had had the possibility to take some control over the government at all.. They just hate the idea of a democratic President.. Who by the way is BLACK..

I hope Ms and Mr Obama have their feet on the ground, and that the advice from his wife can guide him in the rough water he would be in for the next 4 or 8 year.. And I hope their love, their passion who is to clearly to everyone who want to se, is there when the hell is over and they can go back to just be a couple.. You can clearly se that mr and ms Obama are in love, and have a Passion not been seen in the White house since the spring of mr Clinton's first term in office.. They are REALLY in love. And it is just amazing to se it so clearly.. You must be blind and stupid if you do not believe they to be in love. A deep love too.

Well I found DU in a Norwegian news paper, on the message board there. This was before the Iraq war, and some of the other debatants there was pointing to a new message board, called Democratic Underground. I was first just curious, but after a while I was somehow "hocked" on it.. And in the last 7 year it have been one of the wherry few places who I could manage to stay sane, in the "USA, USA, USA crowd who really believed mr Bush to be the savior of all mankind... And as the war in Iraq was going down the tube, the crowd was just going more and more angry by the day.. Today if you just try to debate the case with some civility they would trow everything they might have at you.. To claim that mr Bush was right after all, and that we who was against the Iraq War should go home and shame on ourself.. I am a faighter, or just stupid, and have get into more "fight" with this ******* more than healthy is.. But on DU, and other progressive sites I have managed to get a medical assistance, when the insanity of the right is almost getting into me to.. I guess I have been writing here for a year or so, and my english, is better today too, so I have getting two for one deal:P My sanity, and a better english.

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[defendandprotect]

17. Great post . . .

very late here -- back tomorrow to reply.

[Diclotican]

19. defendandprotect

defendandprotect

Here it is early, 07:32 in the morning

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[defendandprotect]

36. Torture . . .

Who ever expected the US to be going backwards on torture---!!!
There's an urgency for every nation to be focused on Global Warming, yet we're
caught up in this MIC nightmare of wars and warmongering.
But we've gone backwards in every way over the decades of Republican rule.

The Drug War, IMO, is a threat both to the American public and to other nations.
Happily, we actually seem to be talking again about things like opening up Cuba
after all these decades. And, hopefully, Obama will be trying to limit nuclear
weapons.

How does it look that we are not moving to prosecute the Bush administration --
and that we didn't try to impeach them?

I think American public will continue to be concerned for Obama's safety - it will
bother some disturbed people that he is "black." But I also think that we are taking
great pleasure in having someone in the White House again who can speak and make
sense -- lots of common sense. Michelle and Barack are an attractive couple and loving
parents -- and I especially like their youth.


LBJ did well with Voting Rights Act, however, there is a lot of evidence that he was
heavily involved in the assassination of JFK - obviously it could not have been carried
out and kept covered up for so long without having an ally in the White House.
I also hope that soon the farce of the Warren Report and "Magic Bullet" will be overturned.


Have you been curious about how many other foreigners might be here?

Were you taught English in school? Your usage is excellent.

[Diclotican]

37. defendandprotect

defendandprotect

Yes I was taught english in school, from 3 grader I believe it to be.. Now they are beginning to learning the language in 1 grade, even that I believe it to be little early, because at age 6 you have problem enough managing your own language good enough... But that is been doing then:..

We Need to be more carefully about allot of things, including global warming, that is already harming us all. But a Long we have this Dick Heads who claim that it is no prove that global warming are happening, and that in any cases global warming are not human made.. It is right that it is natural cycles where the earth is warmer, and then colder. But not in the rate of the last 150 year.. It have spiked more the last 150 year than the last 10.000 year - after the last Ice age.. So something tell me, that global warming are not just a hoax, but more real than we like to thing about,...

I can understand why people is afraid of war and terror in US, everyone in the world are afraid about it. But US seen to take it to extremes, when many are willing to give up every freedom they have had for the last 200 year, to "feel secure".. You are NOT secure in a police State. Everyone who have been unlucky enough to live in a police state would testify to the fact that a Police State are no guaranty for your safely.. Rather the opposite.. And the way specially the Republican Party have been moving USA for the last 8 year, you are closer to a police state than ever before... The republican Party have in theory given any President who are daring enough to take control, and do what he/she want to do, on life he/she manged to get enough support from the armed forces...

It is wonderfully to have a President in US, who can talk, and walk and have a common sense of what is possible and not - and who doesn't tumble in his own word.. Like mr Bush have been doing for 8 straight year. And we was all told to just take it easy on him, he are not the smartest speaker, but a great President. He was no great President.. Just a dumb man who was lucky enough to have a name, and some friends who wanted him to be the leader... And where the voting was going bad for him, sheaing and stealing was ok, to the greater good off course:sarcasm:

To be honest, I do not know if LBJ was part of the conspiracy to kill Kennedy.. I doubt it somehow, he doesn't look like as a man who was willing to murder his friend.. But you never know, when will betray you in the end...

It should be interesting to just know how many foreigners are on DU.. I would guess the size is far larger than we know, even that I know some who are from our neck of the woods, who are here on DU... It is not just in US, you have had need for some place to come, to hold your sanity clear for the last 8 year..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[defendandprotect]

38. Agree with all you say ---

The republican Party have in theory given any President who are daring enough to take control, and do what he/she want to do, on life he/she manged to get enough support from the armed forces...

[Diclotican]

39. defendandprotect

defendandprotect

And if all history serve Justice, to give a leader tyrannical power is dangerous because no human is that good, that they do not loose their head when get enough power.. No human is that bright or that kind that absolute power, do not absolute corrupt..

So, if a democratic President was to be dictator in US, the groundwork to that, was made by republicans, the democratic president just took the advance of the possibility.. Nothing more, nothing less.. I know many on the right have already feared that Obama want to take control, to be a dictator in the US.. But the groundwork was made by Bush, and the Republican party when they was in power - and they deny it at all cost.. But everyone else know it... And the best are, if that the law's who are given this extra powers is made illegal by the current democratic Congress and senate..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[defendandprotect]

35. misplaced ---

[crim son]

13. Isn't it Obama's job to figure this shit out?

Most DUers know the scoop; he has no excuse for pretending ignorance, is MHO.

[Paulaguyon]

15. Obama's advisor on counter-terror is Brennan

The CIA man who supports extraordinary rendition. With friends like those...

[jberryhill]

20. Don't understand this part

The .pdf document starts with a fax cover sheet TO Clive Smith, from a fax number and telephone number that are not blacked out, so anyone can call those numbers.

The fax consists of letter FROM Clive Smith to the president.

The letter FROM Smith (in the fax sent TO Smith) says that SMITH has redacted information in the attachment.

Why is Smith blacking out stuff, and then saying that someone else did?

[No Elephants]

22. Sorry, O, the "I didn't know" is a big no go.

[bushmeister0]

26. Subject discussed yesterday here:.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5031337

[annabanana]

32. kick . . . n/t