Vaccines didn't cause autism, court rules

[underpants]

Source: CNN

(CNN) -- A special court ruled Thursday that parents of autistic children are not entitled to compensation in their contention that certain vaccines caused autism in their children.

"I must decide this case not on sentiment, but by analyzing the evidence," one of the "special masters" hearing the case said in denying the families' claims, ruling that the families had not presented sufficient evidence to prove their allegations.

The decisions came in three test cases heard in 2007 involving children with autism that their parents contend was triggered by early childhood vaccinations.

The government argued during the 2007 bench trials that the plaintiffs' claims linking the vaccines with autism are not supported by "good science."

Likewise, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization and the Institute of Medicine have found no credible link between vaccinations and autism.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/02/11/autism.vaccines/

---

U.S. vaccine court denies family's autism case
http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE51B4AN20090212

Court says measles vaccine not to blame for autism
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iImMOJCETgsAZa31TvL7-z8ct7JAD96A3OCO0

[Deep13]

1. "Duh!" Deep13 responds. nt

[Captain Hilts]

2. That 'study' was a farce. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. You're referring the the Wakefield study.

[roguevalley]

171. some hooligan doctor who made a study based on autism is

caused by vaccines was caught to be lying. 12 kids in the study. He is a complete bastard. Apparently someone thought to look at his study just now and found it to be 100% lies.

[Liberal Elitist]

234. Measles & Mumps now on the rise in UK because idiots believed this nonsense

And they're still banging on about it in their moronic way.

LBC, a radio station in the UK threatened legal action against Ben Goldacre for posing a 44 minute clip of one Jeni Barnett peddling her misinformed nonsense:

http://www.badscience.net/2009/02/lbc-mmr-jeni-barnett-an-early-day-motion-the-times-and-er-a-bit-of-stephen-fry/#more-894

[jb5150]

5. Even IF a study was a farce

it still does not necessarily prove a link between vaccinations and Autism. Clearly, more research is need to prove (or disprove that link).

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. There has been more research

and you cannot prove a negative.

What the research has found, in dozens of independent studies: there is no link. There is no reason, based on the data amassed through countless studies over the past decade, that there IS no link between vaccinations and autism.

[Abacus]

94. OT: "and you cannot prove a negative."

Sure you can; I've never understood from where this statement originates (I tried teh google once - http://www.google.com/search?q=proving+a+negative - the results didn't know either). While proving a negative is generally more difficult, since it requires exclusion of all rather than inclusion of one, it's not impossible.

[moc]

150. "We never accept the null hypothesis; we only fail to reject it"

This is a major tenet of statistics. Technically, the person you are responding to is correct. We never "prove" a negative, statistically speaking.

[Abacus]

156. That's because the scope of the variables is often too large make exhaustive examination practical

I had the impression the poster was speaking generally, not specifically about H naught and the practices of statisticians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility

[Igel]

217. It's considered a fallacy, shifting the burden of proof

from the person making a claim to the person who is being asked to accept the claim.

Proving a negative is often onerous. Often you have to account for every variable, or even every token of something. Proving "There are no unicorns" --> examining every place that a unicorn *might* be to make sure it doesn't exist, and furthermore making sure that none could have changed locations while you were searching. This doesn't work in math because we can define things exhaustively.

I think I remember from my high school pre-calc class that the set of integers I isn't closed under division because there are a, b in I for which the quantity a/b is not in I (e.g., 2, 3 are in I but 2/3 is not in I); I is closed under multiplication because there is no a, b for which a x b is not in I. Both negatives are (or at least were) easily provable. I think I got the terminology right, it's been over 30 years.

[goforit]

8. Rah! Rah! Rah!...Gooooo Pharmaceuticals!!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Rah! Rah! Go frivilous lawsuits which exploit autistic children?

[Xicano]

289. "Frivolous"???

I wouldn't call spiking vaccines with mercury and giving it to little kids as something frivolous.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (Author of "Deadly Immunity") >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE8kmifM6HU

[WriteDown]

297. Same RFK who opposes wind power in Nantucket?

I'll take what he says with a grain of salt. Actually, autism has been steadily increasing since mercury has been removed from vaccines.

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. Cue the anti-vax nutters in 3...2...1

There have been dozens of studies looking for any link between vaccination and autism; thus far no link whatever has been found. There was a Scandinavian study that examined autism rates in vaccinated vs unvaccinated children; the unvaccinated cohort actually had a HIGHER autism rate. Japan eliminated the MMR vaccine (the vaccination most frequently linked to autism by anti-vax campaigners), and there was an increase in autism rates. The evidence against any link is at this point close to overwhelming, yet the scientifically ignorant continue to bang on insisting on a link.

[ItNerd4life]

83. Had to respond.

Your subject made me laugh. Thanks!

I have a family member who is anti-vaccine and I just don't get it.

[Zhade]

175. Well, they can deny it all they want -- the evidence is clear.

NT!

[Psephos]

264. Science has nothing to do with it

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into.
-Jonathan Swift

A side note: from my observations, most of these nutters are quick and vicious to ridicule others who put beliefs ahead of science. For example, Intelligent Design adherents, or those who see no human contribution to climate change. Remove the beam from one's own eye, and all that. lol

The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment.
- Bertrand Russell

[Milo_Bloom]

7. And yet still.. my kid is not getting vaccinated according to "their" schedule.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. Google 'herd immunity' and see why that's a fucking stupid idea.

[Milo_Bloom]

12. Been there, done that.

Chose to listen to my doctor, instead of the government.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Your doctor is apparently an incompetent twit, then

[Milo_Bloom]

18. Not at all.

One of the top pediatricians in Los Angeles.

[Spider Jerusalem]

28. That explains it then.

Not Jay Gordon, is it? He's hardly unbiased.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Top pediatrician?

Did they have a pediatrician-off and he took first place?

[jb5150]

35. HaHa..

I just blew chicken noodle soup all over my monitor..........thanks, I think

[WriteDown]

15. Worst idea....

EVER.

[Milo_Bloom]

22. Yeah, b/c injecting a developing brain and system

with cocktail combinations , protecting against things when there is 0 chance of infection is brilliant.

Vaccines have a good use, but they should be used intelligently and based on need, while minimizing risks, instead of according to a pharmaceutical company's schedule.

[Deep13]

24. They're harmless. Unlike disease.

The reason most of these diseases are not epidemics is because most people are vaccinated.

[Milo_Bloom]

37. Hardly harmless.

Vaccines actually have many reported side effects that are agreed upon.

Look up Fiberal Seizure.

There are ways to avoid such side effects and still be protected.

[Deep13]

141. Which vaccine has that as a side effect?

The only one I know about that really is dangerous was smallpox. No one is vaccinated against smallpox anymore because the disease has been eradicated by thorough, global vaccination.

[Milo_Bloom]

198. Almost all of them have side effects

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

Hep B mild to moderate fever (up to 1 out of 14 children and adolescents and 1 out of 100 adults)

Hib Fever over 101 degrees Fahrenheit (up to 1 out of 20 children)

Or... Let's look at the MMR

Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)

Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)

Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)

Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)

Several other severe problems have been known to occur after a child gets MMR vaccine. But this happens so rarely, experts cannot be sure whether they are caused by the vaccine or not. These include:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage


The question you need to answer is what is the risk vs the reward.

Fevers are more dangerous the younger the child is. The risks of these particular diseases is far FAR less than the risk of the side effects. Delaying and spreading out the shot signficantly reduces the risk of the side effects, while NOT significantly increasing the risk of the potentially deadly side effects.

[eilen]

237. I think you mean "febrile seizure"

any high fever can cause this. Babies and small children tend to spike high fevers.

[Heddi]

241. There is no such thing as a "fiberal" seizure

there is a FEBRILE seizure, which is a seizure because of a high fever, but I'm not sure what that has to do with vaccines....

[WriteDown]

34. Why not keep your child in a bubble?

They are exposed to a "cocktail" of fungi, bacteria, and virii right as they leave the womb.

[Milo_Bloom]

39. That pass through the body's normal filtration system

Unlike being injected directly into the blood-stream.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. You're just making this up as you go along, aren't you?

You might as well be talking about imbalanced humours.

[Milo_Bloom]

43. What's to make up?

Distinguishing between injecting and breathing seems simple enough for people to understand.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. The idea that the blood stream is not a part of the "natural filtration system."

Or that bacteria, viruses, and to a lesser extent don't get into the blood stream.

[WriteDown]

60. Sorry, responded in wrong place

Mucous membranes make a great place for bacteria and virii to infect.

Please supply actual evidence that vaccines are causing autism .

edited for wrong place.

[Milo_Bloom]

63. Where did I ever say they did?

Why would I supply evidence to back up a claim I never made?

[WriteDown]

78. So you're going with a hunch?

The only consequence is death or disability of a young child.

[Milo_Bloom]

84. Hunch on what? What position do you think you are defending here?

[uppityperson]

253. So you give your kid that inhalent flu vaccine then?

Seems like a good choice.

[WriteDown]

49. So they don't get into the bloodstream?

Really? REALLY?

[Milo_Bloom]

56. I love watching the corporate shills twist words

Did I say that? Nah.. but keep on believing I did.

[WriteDown]

62. Corporations again?

Like the CDC. :eyes:

[Milo_Bloom]

65. Putting more words in my mouth?

Is that the only way you can try and debate, by making up what was actually said?

[laconicsax]

140. Haven't you heard?

CDC stands for Corporate Directive Corporation.

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. I love watching anti-science woos make things up.

What, then, is your point about "blood stream" and "natural filtration system?"

[Milo_Bloom]

77. You're kidding right?

Do you really not understand the difference between injecting a cocktail of viruses directly into the bloodstream and breathing the air?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. I understand it just fine.

Being injected with a cocktail of dead or inactivated viruses directly into your bloodstream is demonstrably safer than not being injected and breathing air.

[Milo_Bloom]

87. Because no vaccines have ANY side effects at all, right?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. They have side effect, sure.

But they're insignificant in comparison to the side effects of no vaccinations.

[Milo_Bloom]

93. Who said anything about no vaccines?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. You.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3735523#3735787

[Milo_Bloom]

123. Lie much?

I never said no vaccines. I said I am not following "their" schedule, but instead the schedule recommended by the doctor.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

124. It's right there for everybody to see.

And laugh at.

[Milo_Bloom]

128. Can you please link to where I said no vaccines?

The post you linked to specifically listed the 3 vaccines that are useless and suggested vaccinating on a different schedule for others.

No where did it say no vaccines at all.

[uppityperson]

255. You are proudly doing what your doc said, not what "they" said?

:rofl: congratulations for not following "them"!




who is "their"?

[NickB79]

57. The primary filtration system of the human body IS the blood system

In connection with the spleen, lymphatic system, and kidneys.

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/25466-systems-of-the-human-body-protection-and-filtration-video.htm

But what the hell would I know, I only have a Bachelor's degree in Biochemistry :eyes:

[Milo_Bloom]

61. Yeah, breathing, injections.. same thing.

Same concentrations of the viruses too.

[WriteDown]

66. Once again...

I encourage a bubble for your child. A nail scratch or a banged knee and you have the blood stream open to a "cocktail" of infectious diseases.

[Milo_Bloom]

69. Obviously at exactly the same concentrations.

Wow, you are really convincing me here.

I guess I will just ignore the doctor from here on out.

LOL.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. Virii, bacteria, and fungi reproduce you know.

So the concentration in an infected individual is considerably higher than a vaccinated individual.

More to the point, in an infected individual, it's an actual disease rather than a vaccine.

[Milo_Bloom]

82. So in your world, the air is filled with measels, mumps, etc..

AHhh, I see the problem.

You think these diseases are active and all around us at all times. What a frightening world you must live in.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. How do you think people get measles and mumps?

A lack of moral virtue?

"You think these diseases are active and all around us at all times. What a frightening world you must live in."

Why, Milo, do you think the rates of measles plummeted after vaccines were introduced, and they're now skyrocketing because shitheads aren't getting their kids vaccinated?

[Milo_Bloom]

89. Who said anything about not getting kids vaccinated?

Do you even understand the position you are debating?

It's amazing how the religious can't understand subtlties.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. BECAUSE VACINNES HAVE NO SIDE AFFECTS, RIGHT?

ZOMG!!1! INJECTING THE BLODSTREAM WITH VIRUSES IS THE SUXOR!

[Milo_Bloom]

96. Vacinnes do have side effects.

That is the problem.

The risks of waiting to vaccinate are insignificant compared with the possible harm caused by the side effects.

[Hannah Bell]

288. rates of measles didn't "plummet" after vaccines, & neither are they "skyrocketing"

now.

The drop was more gradual & spiky, & there's no skyrocketing, since a higher % of the US population is vaccinated than ever.

Centers for Disease Control does surveillance for infectious diseases & is the source for whatever information you see in the media. CDC puts out a weekly report (MMWR)on incidents, deaths, & other information, plus they publish monthly & other reports. Their latest report is the source of the media reports on measles cases.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr /


CDC is also the source of this historic data (current to Q2 2007).

% = percent of vaccination-age children vaccinated with MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) in that year.
() = the number of cases of measles that year.


1967: 60% (62,705)

1970: 58.4% (47,351)

1975: 65.5% (24,374)

1980: 66.6% (13,506)

1985: 61.2% (2,822)

1991: 82% (9,643)

1992: 82.5% (2,237)

1993: 84.1% (312)

1994: 89% (963)

1995: 87.6% (309)

1996: 90.7% (508)

1997: 90.5% (138)

1998: 92% (100)

1999: 91.5% (100)

2000: 90.5% (86)

2001: 91.4% (116)

2002: 91.6% (44)

2003: 93% (56)

2004: 93% (37)

2005: 91.5% (66)

2006: 92.4% (55)

2007: (92.4% to Q2 07) (30) (42 in revision)

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/...
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/...
http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/coverage/nis/nis_...

[WriteDown]

92. Hahahaahha.....

That is your world too. Science wasn't your #1 subject in school was it.

By the way, the air is also filled with numerous other nasty stuff.

[Milo_Bloom]

98. Yeah, lot's of hot air.

[WriteDown]

102. Please read and learn...

Prevention and Public health

Measles is a significant infectious disease because, while the rate of complications is not high, the disease itself is so infectious that the sheer number of people who would suffer complications in an outbreak amongst non-immune people would quickly overwhelm available hospital resources. If vaccination rates fall, the number of non-immune persons in the community rises, and the risk of an outbreak of measles consequently rises.

In developed countries, most children are immunized against measles by the age of 18 months, generally as part of a three-part MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, and rubella). The vaccination is generally not given earlier than this because children younger than 18 months usually retain anti-measles immunoglobulins (antibodies) transmitted from the mother during pregnancy. A second dose is usually given to children between the ages of four and five, in order to increase rates of immunity. Vaccination rates have been high enough to make measles relatively uncommon. Even a single case in a college dormitory or similar setting is often met with a local vaccination program, in case any of the people exposed are not already immune.

In developing countries where measles is highly endemic, the WHO recommend that two doses of vaccine be given at six months and at nine months of age. The vaccine should be given whether the child is HIV-infected or not.<6> The vaccine is less effective in HIV-infected infants, but the risk of adverse reactions is low.

Unvaccinated populations are at risk for the disease. After vaccination rates dropped in northern Nigeria in the early 2000s due to religious and political objections, the number of cases rose significantly, and hundreds of children died.<7> A 2005 measles outbreak in Indiana was attributed to children whose parents refused vaccination.<8> In the early 2000s the MMR vaccine controversy in the United Kingdom regarding a potential link between the combined MMR vaccine (vaccinating children from mumps, measles and rubella) and autism prompted a comeback in the measles party, where parents deliberately infect the child with measles to build up the child's immunity without an injection. This practice poses many health risks to the child, and has been discouraged by the public health authorities.<9> Scientific evidence provides no support for the hypothesis that MMR plays a role in causing autism.<10> However, the MMR scare in Britain caused uptake of the vaccine to plunge, and measles cases came back: 2007 saw 971 cases in England and Wales, the biggest rise in occurrence in measles cases since records began in 1995.<11>

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), measles is a leading cause of vaccine preventable childhood mortality. Worldwide, the fatality rate has been significantly reduced by partners in the Measles Initiative: the American Red Cross, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the United Nations Foundation, UNICEF and the World Health Organization (WHO). Globally, measles deaths are down 60 percent, from an estimated 873,000 deaths in 1999 to 345,000 in 2005. Africa has seen the most success, with annual measles deaths falling by 75 percent in just 5 years, from an estimated 506,000 to 126,000.<12>

The joint press release by members of the Measles Initiative brings to light another benefit of the fight against measles: "Measles vaccination campaigns are contributing to the reduction of child deaths from other causes. They have become a channel for the delivery of other life-saving interventions, such as bed nets to protect against malaria, de-worming medicine and vitamin A supplements. Combining measles immunization with other health interventions is a contribution to the achievement of Millennium Development Goal Number 4: a two-thirds reduction in child deaths between 1990 and 2015."<12>

[Milo_Bloom]

104. You might want to take your own advice.

Nothing in there I disagree with or have argued against.

But, obviously you think I have said something other than I have said.

Maybe you should read and learn.

[WriteDown]

106. This pretty much proves

how unwise it is to wait to vaccinate. Its a good idea to keep with the CDC and the WHO schedule.

[Milo_Bloom]

110. Actually, it doesn't say that at all.

It actually qualifies its statements quite specifically.

"In developing countries where measles is highly endemic, the WHO recommend that two doses of vaccine be given at six months and at nine months of age. "

It weighs the vaccine against the risk of infection accordingly.

[WriteDown]

114. And if people start waiting to immunize in large mass

in the US, we'll be just like them!

[Milo_Bloom]

117. You should google herd immunity and learn about it.

[WriteDown]

120. Uh..you sure about that....

might want to google that yourself since the US is currently below the effective herd immunity rate thanks to individuals like yourself. Did you cure cancer using Trudeau's natural remedy? :eyes:

[Milo_Bloom]

125. Yes, sure about that.

If everyone were to get vaccinated on the schedule my doctor recommended, we would be well above the effective herd immunity rate.

[WriteDown]

127. And pray tell...

What is that schedule? Is your doctor named Trudeau?

[Milo_Bloom]

130. The schedule

Vaccines completely eliminated are:

Hep B
Flu
Chicken Pox

No others until 12 months, then they are givne slowly.
MMR is seperated into 3 different shots and given over a span of time. between 12 and 18 months.

[WriteDown]

167. Sure hope your kids don't get anything in the 1st year...

which used to be fairly common before vaccines. Nothing like wasting away from influenza.

[Milo_Bloom]

184. LOL

As if the influenza vaccine actually works.

Great example there.

[WriteDown]

170. There would be an important window at our most vulnerable

stage in life to contract some serious diseases. I haven't heard of anyone getting polio in a very long time. I'm sure its okay for your kids to wait on that one too.

[Milo_Bloom]

185. Of course they are waiting on that.

[WriteDown]

191. Smart move

:eyes:

[Milo_Bloom]

199. Yes, it is.

[WriteDown]

200. Who knows....

Maybe you'll end up with the next FDR as a son.

[Milo_Bloom]

203. Statistically impossible.

But keep on following that religion.

[WriteDown]

210. I automatically ignore posts

where people say statistically impossible without listing any statistics.

[Milo_Bloom]

218. *SIGH*

131 cases
300,000,000 million people.
1 in 2 million chance of contracting (actually lower because a number of those who contracted it were vaccinated and some where too young for the vaccine.) 0 Deaths.

1 in 1 million chance of very nasty side effect from MMR. Some of these side effects led to death (see CDC's own site)

[Milo_Bloom]

111. Accidentlal double post

[Tumbulu]

152. Here you are again, being rude and putting someone down for no reason at all

STOP IT!!!!!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

157. I disagree on the "no reason at all" part.

[eilen]

239. They were when I was a kid

I had the mumps and the measles. They really sucked. Then I got the German measles. I had pneumonia and a horrible cough. I can't tell you sufficiently in words how horrible the chicken pox was. I still have scars on my face from that and remember the pustules in my mouth, inside my nose and everywhere else. Plus, I was two weeks behind in school when it was finally over. That sucked too.

They did not have MMR nor did they give flu shots when I was a baby. I wish they did. I had the pnemonia when I was two, all I can remember from that is submitting to a rectal temp while watching Captain Kangaroo on my parent's little black and white tv set.

[WriteDown]

76. Of live virii...

it is actually a higher concentration.

[eilen]

238. Vaccines are not injected directly into the blood system

they are injected into a muscle (intramuscularly, not intravenously). Some are injected subcutaneously (into the fat layer under the skin). There are no vaccines given into a vein.

Oral polio is um, oral obviously.

[uppityperson]

256. Did you even know that vaccines aren't given intravenously but intramuscularly?

Not "directly into the blood-stream"?

[uppityperson]

252. 0 chance of any immunizationly preventable childhood disease?

Whoah. Where do you live?

[Zhade]

176. Thanks for endangering others' children, moron.

NT!

[goforit]

10. Great idea!!!

[Deep13]

16. "Their" = science and medical professionals who know WTF they're talking about. nt

[Milo_Bloom]

40. They know how to listen to a corporate schedule.

[WriteDown]

54. The CDC is a corporation?

Who knew.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/wk/mm5751.pdf

page 37

[Milo_Bloom]

58. No, they aren't influenced by corporations at ALL.

Squeeky clean those CDC guys, not at all like any other facet of the government.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. So you're theorizing a conspiracy...

where the corporations conspire with the CDC to give us unhealthy injections...

[Milo_Bloom]

99. Completely unecessary ones.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. Which vaccines do you think are unnecessary?

[Milo_Bloom]

116. Several

If the child is being breast fed, NONE are necessary within the first 6 months.


Several can be skipped completely

Hep B is completely useless
Flu is a complete waste
Chickenpox is idiotic to give in childhood.


Others can generally wait until after 12 months depending upon specific facts and cirumcstances (do you travel, etc..)

[WriteDown]

129. Yes....

No child was ever irreversibly harmed by hep b, influenza, or chicken pox...hahahahahahaha.

[Milo_Bloom]

131. Incidence too small for the risk

Hep B shot is basically useless, UNLESS someone close to the child has it. In our case, no one does.
Influenza is a joke of a shot that has nearly no effectiveness form year to year.
Chicken Pox vaccine carries a risk of harm because it's only has approximately 30 years of effectiveness and chicken pox becomes dangerous at later ages. In short, the risk of harm to a child is much less than the risk of harm to an adult.
The only way we administer Chicken Pox is if the child hasn't contracted it naturally by age 14 and then make SURE he understands to get a booster 30 years later.

[nodehopper]

153. this statement shows you don't understand the public health benefits of vaccines

"Influenza is a joke of a shot that has nearly no effectiveness form year to year."

one of the reasons for flu vaccinations is to prevent people from being coinfected by multiple strains, because that is how new, more virulent flu strains emerge, by swapping DNA inside a coinfected host. If you get a flu vaccine and still get sick with another strain, the vaccine still has a public health benefit.

[Milo_Bloom]

186. Is this the nonsense they are now trying to sell?

[nodehopper]

233. you don't understand it and haven't heard of it = nonsense?

I am sure the idea of tiny microbes invisible with the naked eye also seemed like nonsense before microscopes, antibiotics, etc. Lack of specialized education is totally understandable, but willful ignorance and unwillingness to educate oneself when presented with unfamiliar information is hardly constructive.

[WriteDown]

169. I am amazed at your ability to sense....

carriers of disease since they show no outward symptoms. Is your ability genetic?

Influenza can be effective within the year the vaccine is given.

You may want to research chicken pox. There can be serious consequences.

[Milo_Bloom]

187. I have researched it.

That is why we are opting out of it.

The rest of your post is the same nonsense you have failed to understand the last dozen times I have posted it, so please read and learn.

[WriteDown]

195. I fail to understand because...

I rely on science. Apparently, you rely on scientology.

You may want to keep reading...

Hemorrhagic complications are more common in the immunocompromised or immunosuppressed populations, although healthy children and adults have been affected. Five major clinical syndromes have been described: febrile purpura, malignant chickenpox with purpura, postinfectious purpura, purpura fulminans, and anaphylactoid purpura. These syndromes have variable courses, with febrile purpura being the most benign of the syndromes and having an uncomplicated outcome. In contrast, malignant chickenpox with purpura is a grave clinical condition that has a mortality rate of greater than 70%. The etiology of these hemorrhagic chickenpox syndromes is not known.<17>

[Milo_Bloom]

202. You fail to understand, because you fail to read.

You are not following science.. you are following a religion.

Here you are talking about a specific case of immunosuppresed patients and possible complications therein.


Pathetic.

[WriteDown]

216. Uh....reread

normal children can have complications as well as stated in the blurb I posted. Even if there is a small chance, most parents don't risk hard to their kids. Luckily, the chance of being harmed by a vaccine are far less than the diseases they prevent. At least the "corporate" CBC and WHO seem to think so.

[Milo_Bloom]

219. Math says otherwise.

[WriteDown]

223. No..

The last outbreak had 85% who were unvaccinated. The vast majority.

[Milo_Bloom]

228. 112 People out of 300 million.. OH NOES!!!!!

[WriteDown]

231. I like how you trivialize 100+ people....

It would have been more if it had not been discovered and contained by the corporate CDC

[Milo_Bloom]

261. OH NOES!!!!!

[WriteDown]

197. You still need to explain to me...

how you sense carriers. Plenty of virii can be carried by a person who themselves is not affected.

[Milo_Bloom]

204. Don't need to "sense" anything.

Where did make this up from?

[WriteDown]

209. You said your child is not around anyone carrying these

diseases. How do you know without your special sense?

[Milo_Bloom]

211. Math does the trick.

[WriteDown]

215. Please show the math. nt

[Milo_Bloom]

220. The Math.

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2008/r080821.htm

vs

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmr

[WriteDown]

222. Proves my point in two ways...

85% of the outbreak 112 were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. Also, no mention of carriers, just infected persons. You do know the difference right?




Of the 131 patients, 112 were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. Among the 112 unvaccinated U.S. residents with measles, 16 were younger than 12 months of age and too young for vaccination, and one had presumed evidence of measles immunity because the person was born before 1957.

Of the 95 patients eligible for vaccination, 63 were unvaccinated because of their or their parents′ philosophical or religious beliefs.

[Milo_Bloom]

226. It does prove a point.

It proves that the risk of infection is statistically insignificant, while the risk of severe side effects from the MMR is greater.


Thanks for playing.

[WriteDown]

232. Based on scientology...

Alright Tom, just come out and reveal yourself. Can you tell me more about how post-partum depression shouldn't be treated with any medication?

[nodehopper]

291. he is pointess to argue with

he is hostile to new information. I pointed out something to him in a different subthread about the public health benefit of flu vaccines, and he dismissed it as lies to cover up the fact that it doesn't work. Same logic as "can't see microbes with the naked eye, they must not exist."

[nodehopper]

236. if you researched it so well

why are you so hostile to new information? I tell you something you may not have known about influenza vaccine, and your response is, right away, dismissal and disbelief. That doesn't sound like you are a very good researcher. That sounds like you look for information that confirms your preexisting biases, and willfully dismiss the rest. A good researcher doesn't dismiss new data from the get-go, and is open to amending their conclusions based on it.

[Milo_Bloom]

263. Because I have heard that debunked excuse before.

Its the standard line given each year when they get the vaccine wrong and have to explain to people why they didn't just waste their money.

[nodehopper]

272. can you please show me scientific proof that it has been debunked?

your logic is like someone saying "I feel better after taking antibiotics for three days; the doctors trying to get me to take them for full 10 days when I feel better after 3 are trying to get me to waste their money."

it really seems like you want to believe what you already believe and are hostile to new information. But--I am not. So if you can how me scientific proof that this has been debunked (by scientific I don't mean tin foil conjectures), I will gladly reevaluate my own position. Or is it that all scientists are in cahoots on a giant conspiracy and that's why you can't show me how/where it was debunked?

[Milo_Bloom]

293. The problem is there is 0 actual evidence to back it up.

That was how it was debunked. It was a unproven excuse given to keep people getting flu shots, despite the fact that they don't prevent the flu.

[MannyGoldstein]

248. More Than 30,000 Amercans Die From The Flu Each Year

Many or most of those lives would be saved through vaccination.

[Milo_Bloom]

265. Unlikely.

The Flu vaccine misses as much as it hits and in the case of the live virus, can actually make the real flu worse, if you catch it while your body is fighting the incorrect virus.

[WriteDown]

173. But breast feeding passes...

through the body's "natural filtering mechanism." You need to inject that breast milk directly into the bloodstream. Hahahaah.

[Milo_Bloom]

188. That isn't how it works.

[WriteDown]

190. Just going by your previous quotes. nt

[Milo_Bloom]

193. After passing them the twist-o-meter.

But, then you aren't interested in reality, are you?

[WriteDown]

196. You still haven't explained how you think measles is

contracted. Ever here of typhoid mary?

[Milo_Bloom]

205. It is contracted by being exposed to someone carrying it.

Are you slipping into maddness now that you need this explained to you?

[WriteDown]

213. And you know who is a carrier...

based on your special powers, right?

[Milo_Bloom]

221. Nope. Just use math.

[WriteDown]

224. Apparently, you don't know the difference

between a carrier and an infected person.

[Milo_Bloom]

227. Sure do.

[WriteDown]

230. Nope, you don't

I suppose if one of your children gets measles, polio, etc, it will just be darwinism, but I take no pleasure in that.

[Milo_Bloom]

260. But, it won't happen.

So I don't have to worry about it.

[WriteDown]

277. Sure it won't....

hahahahahahahah

[Milo_Bloom]

295. No, it won't... no matter how much you wish it will.

[uppityperson]

258. Wrong. It can be that way, but not necessarily.

How about passing through a cloud of miniscule droplets that an infected person has coughed into the air? How about handling money that has viruses on it from an infected person. Do you use those wipes for grocery store carts? Do you ever use public restrooms, of course using a clean piece of paper to open the door with? Do you ever use a pen that has been somewhere it might have been coughed on, or touched by someone who coughed?

You do not need direct contact. No.

[uppityperson]

257. That made me laugh, thank you.

It was a good change from shaking my head in amazement. Very good.

[WriteDown]

71. So you don't believe the CDC...

but you know the "real" deal. Fan of Kevin Trudeau are we? :eyes:

[Milo_Bloom]

100. I don't blindly believe any government agency

or individual.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. Yet you believe loony conspiracy theories.

Funny thing.

[Milo_Bloom]

118. What is the "loony conspiracy theory" I supposedly believe in?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. The loony conspiracy theories about vaccines being bad.

And that "corporation" are trying to cover up the truth.

You know. Everything we've been talking about for the last half hour or so.

[Milo_Bloom]

133. So, you mean the conspiracies you made up?

It amazing to watch the shills put words in my mouth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. No, like the ones you made up.

The ones about how vaccines are bad and useless. And the business about corporations.

"It amazing to watch the shills put words in my mouth."

That right there. Perfect example.

What, you think you could just make this shit up and you couuld get away with it?

[Milo_Bloom]

147. Yeah, all made up.

Some vaccines are useless. Others have side effects that can be avoided by waiting to administer them or simply seperating them out.

Other are harmful because of unintended results (http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.med/2005-01/0215.html)

Pharmacutical companies have a financial interest in the current schedule and lobby quite often for vaccines to be included in the schedule.

http://www.jpands.org/hacienda/severyn.html

"Drug company lobbyists can wear different hats. While collecting between $50,000-$100,000 from vaccine maker Wyeth for Texas lobbying activities, the same lobbyist collects $25,000-$50,000 from the Texas chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics to encourage new vaccine mandates in Texas.(6) Unlike Texas, lobbying fees are not public information in Ohio."

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), a major supporter of mandatory chickenpox and other vaccine mandates across the country, shares incestuous financial ties with Merck. When constructing its new headquarters in suburban Chicago, the AAP solicited funds from Merck, and received $100,000 for its building campaign."

[WriteDown]

172. So CDC and WHO bad, but this bunk is good? Got it. nt.

[LeftishBrit]

273. Like the conspiracy theory ..

that anyone who disagrees with you on an internet board has got to be a 'shill' for someone?

Because nobody could possibly disagree with you unless they got paid for it?

[FloridaJudy]

146. I can understand how the CDC has lost prestige of late

But really, do you think the World Health Organization, UNICEF, The American Red Cross, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Academy of Family Physicians are also in on the conspiracy? That's an awful lot of people to bribe, and a surprising number of them are highly ethical!

[Milo_Bloom]

189. They all rely on the same sources

which are funded by organizations with a specific interest.

It's not a "conspiracy" just a reality of the system.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

108. So why, exactly...

are the "corporation" pushing a schedule of early childhood vaccinations when, according to you, it's perfectly safe to get all vaccinations later?

Don't the "corporations" get just as much money if you're getting all the vaccinations anyway?

[Milo_Bloom]

122. No.

If you look at the immunization schedule, they require the same vaccine to be given multiple times, whereas if you wait, you do not need the continual booster shots and several shots can be eliminated completely (such as Hep B, Flu, Chicken Pox).

[uppityperson]

259. If you wait you never need a flu vaccine. What. The. Hell?

And I suppose you believe that elderly who get sick from the flu....?
They didn't get a flu vaccine as a baby. Yet they get the flu. Odd. Same with Hep B? You can wait and do not need to get a Hep B vaccine, it can be eliminated completely if you wait.

Good grief.

[Milo_Bloom]

266. The flu vaccine is useless.

So is Hep B unless you have an actual risk.

[uppityperson]

271. "if you wait...several shots can be eliminated completely (such as Hep B, Flu, Chicken Pox)"

You are changing your tune in your reply.

Again, if you wait, you can completely eliminate Hep B, flu, chicken pox? No.


However, sometimes the flu vaccine is useless, other times it manages to be spot on the prime type of flu going around. Having had a 21 yr old relative die from influenza aftermath a couple yrs ago, and having worked in facilities with elderly who also die with flu aftermath, I strongly disagree that the flu vaccine is always useless.

Back to your statement that "if you wait, you do not need the continual booster shots and several shots can be eliminated completely (such as Hep B, Flu, Chicken Pox)". Wrong. Waiting does nothing to eliminate risk of contracting diseases such as Hep B, influenza, chicken pox.

[Milo_Bloom]

292. Never said that.

You need to read more carefully.

Waiting has nothing to do with the usefullness of the shots.

Some shots are eliminated completely, such as Flu, Hep B, Chicken Pox. There is no reason to "wait" since they are useless. (unless there are specific conditions present, such as someone in the house with Hep B OR someone hasn't caught Chicken Pox naturally by 14)

Other shots you wait for.

[Deep13]

136. Who are "they" again?

:tinfoilhat:

[Milo_Bloom]

192. The government approved schedule

which is lobbied for and ultimately written by the corporations selling the vaccines.

[TrogL]

201. So you WANT your kid to catch preventable diseases?

[Milo_Bloom]

207. No.

I don't want to expose my child to preventable problems by trying to protect him from statistically impossible results.

[TrogL]

240. What's your objection to the Hep B shot?

If you cannot guarantee that your child will not be exposed in the classroom, the hospital or anywhere else, it is unforgivable that you would not arrange for this vaccine at the first opportunity.

[uppityperson]

254. Who is "their"?

[DumpDavisHogg]

11. Vaccines ain't the problem. Thimerosal is.

Thimerosal is loaded with mercury.

Even adults are urged not to eat fish that comes from mercury-laden streams or to even be around thermostats that contain mercury. So why does anyone think it's a good idea to inject a baby with a mercury-laden preservative?

And if anyone thinks thimerosal hasn't been used recently, think again. I don't think the supplies of thimerosal-laden vaccines expired until 2008. Maybe they still haven't.

I'm sure autism has other causes though in addition to thimerosal.

I'm not against vaccines, but thimerosal is clearly not something I want to be around.

[Spider Jerusalem]

13. The MMR vaccine, most frequently linked to autism by the anti-vax brigade...

has NEVER CONTAINED THIMEROSAL. Never. Not at all.

And thimerosal was removed from all childhood vaccines in the US in 1999. The only vaccine still containing thimerosal as a preservative is the influenza vaccine.

And the amount of mercury present in thimerosal in a vaccine is in the range of micrograms. Insufficient to account for the severity of observed developmental disorders.

[DumpDavisHogg]

23. It was removed from NEW batches in 1999

It was removed from new batches in 1999. Old batches didn't expire for years.

As for an MMR vaccine that didn't contain thimerosal to begin with, then I guess that's another matter entirely.

[NickB79]

36. Post a link showing the shelf life of childhood vaccines

I posted one in post #31 that completely contradicts what you say. Back up your claims with evidence.

[DumpDavisHogg]

45. 2001 + 3 = 2004

So they were still being used as recently as 2004. Not exactly ancient history.

Last year I read on HuffPo they were still being used last year.

[NickB79]

75. Actually, if you would have read the links I posted, you'd see that only a couple are good to 3 yrs

Most are good only to 18 months. And yes, in the world of medicine, 5-6 years IS ancient history, given the pace of new scientific advances and the rate that they burn through supplies.

If the last of the vaccines with thimerosal expired in 2004, what objections do you have with currently manufactured vaccinations being given to children?

Oh yeah, you're afraid there might still be a vial of old vaccine lurking around out there. If you have a link to the HuffPo article you are referring to, post it. Otherwise your claims are unsubstantiated.

[DumpDavisHogg]

80. I have no objection to vaccinations...as long as they don't contain thimerosal (n/t)

[LeftishBrit]

274. Most don't nowadays. The MMR never did.

[Spider Jerusalem]

178. The Huffington Post is a hotbed of nutty conspiracist anti-vax loons

the most prominent of whom is David Kirby (who's been widely discredited by actual scientists, who, you know, actually know what they're talking about).

[Milo_Bloom]

17. There are also issues not considered

Such as subjecting a developing system to cocktail combinations of viruses, most of which have absolutely no practical application until, at earliest, later in life.

[WriteDown]

20. Yes....

No child has ever died of measles, mumps, or rubella. They're probably all just a myth. :sarcasm:

[Milo_Bloom]

27. And I guess the ONLY way to protect against it is...

a combination shot with massive side effects given at 12 months.

I guess seperating out the vaccines and giving them over the course of several months couldn't possibly work.

Yipes, it's like dealing with religious nuts.

[WriteDown]

33. Massive side effects?

Considering the # of infants that show any side affects is miniscule. Why give a child any medicine? All "can" have serious side affects. Unfortunately, measles may not wait for a few months.

[Milo_Bloom]

41. How many cases of measles were their in infants last year?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Thanks to bad parenting...

measles infections, and deaths, are going back up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy#Disease_outbreaks

[Milo_Bloom]

LOL. From none to slim

and all cases where vacinnes weren't given at all.

Cute, but no cigar.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. "all cases where vacinnes weren't given at all."

Exactly the point.

[Milo_Bloom]

67. Key words..."At all"

Let's see you try and figure this out.

[WriteDown]

73. I've heard measles and mumps will wait...

on your schedule if you submit your request in writing. :eyes:

[Milo_Bloom]

90. Actually, they do wait.

You actually have to be exposed to it. That's kinda a requirement.

[WriteDown]

97. Uh-oh...

Looks like measles likes to use the body's own "filtration system."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles


And nothing here about a wait time. That is one heck of an infection rate.

[Milo_Bloom]

103. "90% of people without immunity sharing a house with an infected person will catch it. "

Yeah, no need to be near it at all.

[WriteDown]

107. Heck...

They can sneeze of cough in a shopping mall with disastrous affect to the non-immunized.

[Milo_Bloom]

134. Riiiiight!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

137. How do you think measles really does get spread, Milo?

People hanging around purposefully in some sort of measles commune?

[Milo_Bloom]

208. *SIGH*

"Measles is spread very easily from person to person, when droplets of the virus are circulated through the air from an infected person coughing or sneezing. Another person then breathes in the virus and may become infected"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

212. So then why are you objecting to post #107?

[Milo_Bloom]

225. I wasn't object to the post, it was the poster...

being intentionally ignorant.

And we are discussing the difference between giving an MMR and seperating the MMR into 3 shots given at different intervals.

The risk of the side effects of the MRR are FAR GREATER than the risks of actually contracting measles.

The side effects are less signficant in the seperated vaccines.

[WriteDown]

46. You're kidding, right? nt

[NickB79]

48. Most U. S. Measles Cases Reported since 1996, says CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2008/r080821.htm

"More measles cases have been reported in the United States since Jan. 1, 2008 than during the same period in any year since 1996, according to a report released today in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.

Between January 1 and July 31, 2008, 131 cases were reported to CDC′s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases (NCIRD). At least fifteen patients, including four children younger than 15 months of age, were hospitalized. No deaths have been reported.

In the decade before the measles vaccination program began, an estimated 3–4 million persons in the United States were infected each year. Of these, 400–500 died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and another 1,000 developed chronic disability from measles encephalitis."

[Milo_Bloom]

105. OH NOES 131 CASES!!!!

[uppityperson]

262. Even better, no child has ever GOTTEN m, m, r or hep B, or influenza

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Er...

are you at all familiar with what childhood mortality rates were before widespread vaccination? How many children died of measles, for instance? The drop in childhood mortality over the past 70 years is a direct result of vaccination together with improved hygiene. Not vaccinating until a later age increases the chances that your child will contract measles or rubella and possibly die (a vaccination rate of about 95% is required for herd immunity; thanks to the fearmongering over vaccines, that rate has dropped to <80% (with a comcomintant increase in recorded cases of measles, and in fatalities).

[Oak2004]

250. Developing systems aren't ordinarily subjected to a "cocktail" of viruses?

I've been under the impression that microbes are everywhere, and that the first exposure to a "cocktail" of viruses and other microbes happens, oh, sometime in the womb.

But that's just me. I shouldn't have taken all those "corporate" science courses, I guess.

[LeftishBrit]

278. Most people who die from these preventable diseases...

die before the age of 5. The diseases can and do kill at any age; but there's a reason why they're called 'childhood diseases'.

[WriteDown]

19. Japan's rate of autism has increased since they ended use

of Thimerosal in all of their vaccines. Try again.

[Deep13]

21. There's more mercury in a can of tuna.

The amount of mercury used as a preservative is miniscule. And no, there's no clinical evidence to support your conclusions. And if you are relying on anecdotes, there was mercury in the flu shot I had a few months ago and it did not turn me into an idiot.

[DumpDavisHogg]

29. So is it a good idea to inject a baby with mercury?

I still say it isn't.

Thimerosal would have a larger effect on a baby than on an adult.

One of the other posts here said the MMR vaccine that was at issue in this story didn't contain thimerosal though.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. It's a good idea to inject babies with vaccines.

the ones for babies don't contain thimerosal. Not that it'd be a problem if they did.

[Milo_Bloom]

47. Seems quite silly, actually.

Unless you are travelling, there is no reason to inject an infant with most of the vaccines corporations try to force upon them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. It's just good parenting.

The alternative is like the people who prevent the distribution of condoms, because prayer will keep the AIDS away.

[kimmerspixelated]

286. I came in late on this, but wanted to let you know

that I absolutely agree with you! I've been in these debates before, and the pro-vacc side can be so rude, so hang in there, don't let them bully you. They need to be more respectful, but they have it in their heads a certain way, and they become evil when they open their mouths!

[DumpDavisHogg]

51. It would be a problem if they injected them with thimerosal

The insistence that thimerosal is safe is about on par with climate change denial.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Actually, that's backwards.

Scientific evidence overwhelmingly shows that thimerosal is safe.

Saying it is unsafe contradicts scientific literature, on par with climate change denial.

Or creationism.

[DumpDavisHogg]

59. Yeah, I'm sure scientific literature urges people to ingest mercury (n/t)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. Uh, well, yeah, it does.

The scientific literature clearly shows that thimerosal is safe.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

269. It really helps to be informed before you post.

I have seen a lot of scientific literature encouraging people to eat a wide variety of fish. Those fish are widely known to contain mercury. So you would be wrong.

David

[Deep13]

138. Yup, if it keeps the vaccine from spoiling.

As I said, it is an infintesimally small amount.

[NickB79]

31. Thimerosal was removed from almost all childhood vaccines in the US in 2001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal

As to your assertion that there may still be thimerosal-laden vaccines out there, check this link:

http://nyc.gov/html/doh/html/imm/immhand.shtml

Other than the polio vaccine, none of them have a shelf life of more than 3 years maximum.

And beyond that, the MMR vaccine that most people have tried to link to autism NEVER USED THIMEROSAL!!!

[Posteritatis]

101. But it clearly uses magical stealth thimerosal!

Big Pharma's hiding it from all of us! They're injecting us all with super-thimerosal containing higher than pure concentrations of mercury and nothing else!

:tinfoilhat:

[Zhade]

179. Man, anti-vaxxers are fucking IDIOTS.

So much denial.

[acsmith]

244. excuse me...

I am an anti-vaxer idiot. what are your qualifications for calling people idiots? what do you do actually, do you work in a shoe store?

[xchrom]

38. recommend

[SidDithers]

275. You always pick the best posts to rec...

:hi:

Sid

[4lbs]

72. I'm beginning to think that maybe it's not just one thing that's causing this, but rather a chain

reaction combination of several conditions.

[LanternWaste]

81. People may get the vaccines should they so choose, yes?

People may get the vaccines should they so choose, yes? People may also opt out of the vaccine should they so choose, yes?

So I don't really understand all the incivility and name calling on this particular thread-- unless of course people just get pissed off because someone else made a different choice than they themselves did... :shrug:

[Posteritatis]

95. Those choices affect others

If enough people opt out of a vaccine, that vaccine becomes less effective to the rest of the population. I get pissed off at anti-vaccination people because they're a threat to the health of the rest of us, to say nothing of themselves and any kids they abuse by denying them safe preventative measures. I don't recognize a right to attack the health of the population at large.

Of course, that's one of those silly "fact" things the anti-vaccination crowd hates so much.

[LanternWaste]

144. Is the vaccine still effective to those who get one?

Is the vaccine still effective to those who get one? If so, I really can't see any problems other than one may feel a person who does opt out is passively endangering their children...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

154. Not for people who can't get the vaccine because of allergies.

So in addition to putting their own children in danger, anti-vaccers are putting in danger people who have vaccine allergies.

[LanternWaste]

161. Is it a high degree of danger?

Is it a high degree of danger? Do we have corollary tables indicating degrees? (I ask not out of snarkiness, but simply because I don't know.)

Is there a growing position that the vaccines should be mandatory, or simply made available to those who want them such as the flu vaccine?

(I'm neither pro- nor-anti vaccine, don't know enough about it or the controvery. I get a flu shot once a year and that's about it-- I don't which side of the aisle that puts me)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

162. There are people dying because of it.

Check the links upthread. These 100% preventable diseases are skyrocketing because of this fear-mongering.

[Zhade]

181. ONE CASE is too fucking much!

No one has the right to endanger MY child because of their woowoo anti-vax ignorance!

[LanternWaste]

194. You feel that the vaccines should be mandated by law?

You feel that the vaccines should be mandated by law?

On edit: Again-- not trying to be snarky, just trying to get a general feel of the sentiment around here as this is the first Vacci thread I've actually opened and tried to follow...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

270. If you want your kid in public school, yes.

[LeftishBrit]

280. Also, some vaccines can't be given until a certain age/ aren't effective till a certain age

So babies, who are often the most vulnerable, can be endangered before they have the vaccine.

E.g. I know someone who caught whooping cough at the age of one week. She survived, but had damage to the motor areas of her brain and has never been able to walk.

[acsmith]

243. but if you are vaccinated what do you care?

did you ever engage your brain?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. There's the issue of irresponsible parenting.

People who don't get their kids vaccinated are bad parents.

If they themselves don't want to get vaccinated, fine. The world's better off without them.

[LanternWaste]

145. Well, I'm sure most people have a list

Well, I'm sure most people have a list of people they think the world is better off without...

[Tumbulu]

158. You may change your name but you remain rude

Who do you think is a better mother, one who stays home with their baby and breast-feeds it and goes by Dr Sear's schedule or a mom who gets all the vaccines right on schedule so they can leave the child at day care. Do you actually want to start that discussion here, because that is what the differing schedules are about.. One is for children who at a young age are in public care most of the time and the other is for children who are not in public most of the time. Each schedule is appropriate for each situation.

Get an education yourself or be quiet.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

160. ...

"Who do you think is a better mother, one who stays home with their baby and breast-feeds it and goes by Dr Sear's schedule or a mom who gets all the vaccines right on schedule so they can leave the child at day care."

The one who vaccinates.

I'm not going to subscribe to the sexist notion that mothers who stay home are better than mothers who work for a living.

"Do you actually want to start that discussion here, because that is what the differing schedules are about.. "

What I get is that this "schedule" thing is a canard. The person upthread says it's about "schedule" but then invents conspiracy theories about corporations, claims that vaccines aren't usefuly, and generally forwards all the standard anti-vaccine bullshit.

"Get an education yourself or be quiet."

You can't forward anti-vaccine bullshit, and then tell others to get an education.

[Tumbulu]

177. both vaccinate, but according the different schedules

who is anti vaccine here?

Is child rearing now "not working for a living"? What sexist bullshit is that?

Is only paid work acceptable to you? Do you believe that those that choose to stay home with their child or children are not working?

Stay home with a child for a day and then get back to me.

It is all work. And all parents struggle to find the best way to proceed. And each path has different issues and doctors deal with these issues every day. Hence different schedules for vaccinations.

[Zhade]

182. You don't get to choose who speaks, especially when YOU'RE the ignorant one.

NT!

[uppityperson]

267. Who do you think is a better parent. One who sees only those 2 choices, or one

who can see there are other options between (a) stay home, breast feed, go by Dr Sear's schedule or (b)immunize on schedule so can abandon her child at a day care.

How about one who breast feeds her child if possible, gets immunizations since she realizes neither she nor her child live in a bubble, does the best she can supporting herself and her child in a positive manner?

Open your mind to false dichotomies and quit telling people to be quiet.

[Tumbulu]

285. I never said abandon, you are trying to create insults where there were none made

and rude comments are not acceptable to me and many others here. I can and will tell rude people to be quiet.

Open your mind to being polite and respectful of different ways to achieve the same goals.

[Zhade]

180. No. It's a public health issue. They're not allowed to endanger us through their idiocy.

NT!

[LanternWaste]

214. hookay....

hookay....

[AngryAmish]

85. Now you have let the anti-vax nutters out

It is going to take all day to get them back in their pens.

It always does...



yeahhhh!! get back there!!!


yeahhh!!

[question everything]

115. Not that it will change the minds of many, including on DU

who would rather believe quackery than real science.

And, no, like creationism, it is not just another "theory."

[crankmob]

126. maybe vaccines are dangerous, maybe they are not..

eating fruits and veggies and not processed garbage will prevent more disease that any shot will.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. Processed foods cause measles, mumps, and rubella?

:shrug:

[crankmob]

148. "People who don't get their kids vaccinated are bad parents."

Anyone who makes a statement like that is a terrible person and most likely very very uniformed.

Fortunately for you, the world needs followers. Have a nice day.

[nodehopper]

155. I don't know if they are bad parents

I do think they are bad citizens/bad community members, and in some instances bad parents. One of the many things I find objectionable and gross about the anti-vax movement is its total disregard for public health as a public good.

[crankmob]

163. there are alternatives

western medicine is profit driven and there are countless reasons not to trust pharmaceutical companies. would be nice to see more outrage for the pharmaceutical companies disregard for public health.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

165. Pharmaceutical companies have done more good for public health...

then 6,000 years of alternative "medicine."

[crankmob]

166. WOW.. good luck with your drugs

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

168. Good luck with your urine therapy.

[jb5150]

183. There's nothing

a good bleeding can't cure..................:evilgrin:

[nodehopper]

235. "western medicine is profit driven" as a sentence makes no sense

what are you including under western medicine? the scientific method? peer review? public heath and epidemiology programs? there is more to Western medicine than Pfitzer and Merck. And there are no alternatives to things like antibiotics and massive scale public vaccination programs--no alternatives that are nearly as effective.

I agree that it would be nice to see more outrage for the pharmaceutical companies disregard for public health. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The outrage with big pharma makes sense in the context of things like TRIPS agreement and access to ARVs in developing nations, lobbying our dear congress to ban re-importation of cheap drugs from Canada, etc. Vaccination programs have been implemented world-wide for decades, including in states where medicine and pharmaceutical research are socialized. Big Pharma is frequently despicable, but that doesn't mean they are out to damage public health at every turn--they are despicable because they put profits over people--but with things like mandated or state-subsidized vaccination programs, they produce things that are good for the general population, because they have the financial incentive to do so.

[crankmob]

164. there are alternatives

western medicine is profit driven and there are countless reasons not to trust pharmaceutical companies. would be nice to see more outrage for the pharmaceutical companies disregard for public health.

[uppityperson]

268. and homeopathic medicine is not interested in any profits?

oh kay

[AngryAmish]

174. naaa, just rebulla

[TrogL]

206. An apple a day keeps cholera away? Get a grip on reality.

[harun]

139. Mis-leading headlines all-around

Court said there wasn't enough evidence for it to link vaccines to autism, nothing more nothing less.

Courts don't say "Vaccine's don't cause autism". To bad the media wasn't as careful with language as courts are.

[Jefferson23]

142. From the article:

" A litigation steering committee is representing thousands of families that fall into three categories: those that claim that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine can combine with thimerosal-containing vaccines to cause autism; those who claim thimerosal-containing vaccines alone can cause autism; and those who claim that MMR vaccines, without any link to thimerosal, can cause autism.

Prior to the release of Thursday's rulings, an attorney for the families, Thomas Powers, said the expected rulings would affect only the families that fall under the first category."

The cases will go forward, will be interesting to see how that plays out.

[Doctor Panacea]

143. Wow, how interesting!

How interesting this thread has been.

I am a physician and have only the following to say:

I always find it laughable when somebody talks about a doctor being "one of the best in BLANK (name your favorite big city, or nation)." Medicine just does not work like that. Practitioners tend to be competent or, in a few cases, incompetent; and caring (most) or uncaring (far too many).

The "one of the best" bit is nonsense, since it implies some kind of special competency that any peer of this "one of the best" would know is not there.

I am not an attorney, but I will offer my legal opinion anyway. Any physician who advises against giving a vaccine on the schedule promoted by the CDC will be HELD LIABLE in a court of law if that child develops a disease that the vaccine would almost certainly have prevented, and dies or has a lasting effect of the disease. Just think how a jury would respond to this case, when the evidence was presented to it, and the only defense of Dr. Wonderful is to say, "I didn't think it would be a good idea. I thought it would be better to wait."

So this doctor who is "one of the best" can kiss his ass goodbye if one of his patients ever develops a problem after he has advised against the vaccine.

Just my opinion. Who knows? I could be wrong.

[underpants]

229. Thank you for that

I saw this "BREAKING" on CNN while I was at the gym and was surprised that it wasn't posted yet.

I have to admit that I entertained the connection in my mind at first. I thought it was due to the preservative and spoke to our pediatrician about it. She had switched to individual doses but she stated that there was no evidence of a link. That appears to be the truth not just because a court says so but base on how it came to that decision. I have to admit that the retroactive immunity that the pharmaceuticals got passed (and how they got it based) stunk to high-heaven of a indirect admission but I am not a lawyer either so as you say Who knows?

There is how ever the matter of the spike in autism cases. I would think that it has one or more of three causes: there is an increase of autism, there is an increase in diagnosis of autism, or there is some other cause that leads to the first two. We need to determine what is causing this.

[Javaman]

149. Meh, people on both sides scream back and forth. However, as soon

as there is a serious outbreak, those who don't vaccinate will change their tune.

Flame if you want, I don't care, I don't respond to emotional lunacy.

[moc]

151. Sadly, I don't know that anti-vaxers would change their tune in the face of an outbreak.

There was a very interesting This American Life on a month or so ago that documented a measles outbreak, in California I think it was. A non-vaccinated kid brought it back from overseas and caused an outbreak. No, the anti-vaxers didn't change their tune one bit.

[Javaman]

159. That was a great show. I heard it as well. nt

[acsmith]

245. like an out-break of autism?

[acsmith]

242. the sad thing is...

...that most of the people posting on here that are pro-vaccination treat the anti-vax people like they are neanderthals that have no idea about science, learning, reading or anything else.

i am a doctor and i will not have my 6 month old daughter take any vaccinations and many other doctors i know feel the same way. if your child is vaccinated, my un-vaccinated child does not put yours at risk and therefore it is a personal choice.

i am sure almost all people on this site would not argue the same way about pro-life which removes people's ability to choose.

[moc]

246. If you're a doctor and believe any of the anti-vax crap, then I'd venture to guess you got your

medical degree out of a cracker jack box.

Never fear, I have tons of M.D.'s in my graduate classes (I teach public health) who don't have a clue how to read the epidemiologic literature. So, you're not alone in your world as a clueless M.D. Actually, that's why many M.D.'s seek graduate public health education, for the methodological skills necessary to read the literature and to implement evidence-based medicine. Perhaps you should avail yourself of some further training. As it is, you come across as completely clueless.

[MannyGoldstein]

247. Why Put Your Daughter At Risk? nt

[Kali]

249. you are a "doctor" of what?

mind posting your credentials?

[slackmaster]

281. So, you're counting on the fact that most other people get their children vaccinated

To protect your child against measles, pertussis, polio, etc.

[Realityhack]

296. See Post 131.

Yes they do put other children at risk.

If anti-vax people are being mislabeled as ignorant... then you should post credible peer reviewed research to support your argument. Otherwise the criticism is in my opinion reasonably founded.
There are MD's who believe in homeopathy, that doesn't give it one bit of scientific merit.

If you have researched this as a doctor and can post credible sources a lot of people here might be interested. Otherwise we can only base our assessment on the research we have seen. And that research rejects the link to autism.

[Tumbulu]

298. Thank you for your post

I agree with you, these rude posters bully everyone else around. They do not listen to any logic or discussion. Please do not let their hostile posts scare you away. We need many of voices here. No one should be shouted out; name calling should be stopped. It is very repug and freeper like.

[w4rma]

251. There are fillers that can be used other than mercury based ones. Why don't they switch? (nt)

[LeftishBrit]

276. They did. (nt)

[w4rma]

283. I'm not sure that all vaccines have switched over. (nt)

[flvegan]

279. This thread is the awesome.

[XemaSab]

290. Hell yeah

:thumbsup:

[barb162]

282. Vaccines may not cause autism but they sure can cause some severe

and even life-threatening symptoms and even death.

"Talk with a doctor before getting a flu shot if you:

Have ever had a severe allergic reaction to eggs or to a previous flu shot or
Have a history of Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS). "
http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/about/qa/flushot.htm

http://www.vaers.hhs.gov/


Eczema vaccinatum: A common concern with smallpox vaccination involving the implantation of the vaccinia virus from the vaccination into the skin of a person with eczema (atopic dermatitis), sometimes with a fatal outcome. Disrupted skin permits viral implantation. Once the virus is implanted, it spreads from cell to cell producing extensive lesions. The skin lesions appear identical to a primary smallpox vaccination. Confluent lesions often cover the entire face, the crook of the elbow in the antecubital fossa, and behind the knee in the popliteal fossa. Viremia (viral spread through the bloodstream) may also occur allowing for the spread of virus to other parts of the body, including skin that is not affected by eczema. Bacterial and fungal invasion may occur as a late stage of untreated eczema vaccinatum.

It is estimated that there are 27 million individuals in the US alone who have atopic dermatitis, many of whom would be susceptible to eczema vaccinatum if vaccinated or in contact with a vaccine. Further, it appears that even healed skin is not normal and eczema vaccinatum has occurred in the skin of such individuals at the sites of prior florid eczema. snip


http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=21872

I read of a parent who had a vaccination and the child had skin problems and the child nearly died just being near the parent. "The child was hospitalized for 48 days" Article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN1744524120070518

[trotsky]

284. Compare to the stats of the diseases vaccines prevent.

Go ahead, compare.

Find a few people who remember what it was like when polio was a threat.

People today are victims of past success. We are so far removed from the pain, suffering, and death caused by dozens of diseases that we're spoiled.

[SocratesInSpirit]

299. You hit the nail on the head...

I had a chemistry teacher who was crippled by polio and walked with a permanent limp. My step aunt was struck by the measles and mumps at the same time when she was infant - she is in her fifties now, and is mentally a child. You hear stories about people who had to live out their lives in iron lungs because they were permanently damaged by polio. Even looking back at one's family tree only a few generations ago, one can see how many children died in infancy or before they reached age five.

Sure, there are potential side effects to vaccination, but it's a matter of acceptable risk. My children will be vaccinated, as I was.

[trotsky]

301. A college gf of mine had an uncle who lost an arm to polio.

We take such progress for granted, it's sad. What's worse is that you will encounter vaccination opponents who sincerely believe that because there were no incidents such as this in their families, they therefore don't need to vaccinate, and besides, it will "weed out" those who are weaker.

[LeftishBrit]

287. The smallpox vaccine is more potentially dangerous than most...

I had it as a baby, and again as an older child (before travelling) with no problems, and so did most; but it can certainly have dangers especially for people with certain allergies. And I remember there were strict rules about not getting the area wet.

Many years ago, it was taken off the schedule because the risk of getting smallpox became so low that the risk of the vaccination was seen as greater. It now no longer exists as a 'wild' disease, and the only people who may get this vaccination are those who work in biomedical research, or who are seen as being at risk of coming up against it in biological warfare.

So it's not relevant to the vaccine debate for 99.99% of people.

[Milo_Bloom]

294. And often the rates of the side effects are higher than the disease

You have a better chance of death/severe illness from the MMR than you have of contracting any of the deseases.

You can look at the instance of series side effects from the MMR right on the CDC website.

[trotsky]

300. You have absolutely no ability to comprehend the stats.

I find that most anti-vaxers don't. (Which explains why it is so clear to them that vaccines are bad.) WHY do you think the odds of contracting measles, mumps, or rubella are so low? Do you think it might just be because vaccination against them is so widespread? Oy.

"Series" side effects, huh? This is HUGH!!!!!1!

[Milo_Bloom]

302. Maybe if you took the time to read my position

you wouldn't make quite the fool of yourself.

[trotsky]

303. You display a total inability to grasp the issue.

Your post that I responded to demonstrates this perfectly. But you can call me names if that makes you feel better.

[Milo_Bloom]

304. So tell me, oh hypocritical one...

What is this "issue" of which you speak?