Skull & Bones sued for Geronimo's remains

[sabra]

Source: Yale Daily News

The heirs of an Apache chieftain whose remains are rumored to be held inside Yale's oldest secret society filed a lawsuit today demanding the return of their ancestor's skull.

Twenty descendants of the legendary Apache chieftain Geronimo are suing government officials, the University and the society Skull & Bones in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia to seek the return of his remains as well as punitive damages.

One hundred years ago today, Geronimo died of pneumonia at Fort Sill, Okla., but the suit alleges members of the society exhumed his remains in 1918 or 1919 and transported them to the society's High Street tomb in New Haven. The group rumored to have stolen Geronimo's skull, bones and other items from his gravesite is said to have included Prescott Bush, the father of former President George H. W. Bush '48 and grandfather to former President George W. Bush '68.

"To assure that all existing remains of Geronimo and funerary objects are recovered by Geronimo's lineal descendants, the Order of Skull and Bones and Yale University must account for any such articles that are or have been in their possession, or on their property," the formal complaint states. "And persons with knowledge must provide any facts known to them concerning the claims."

Read more: http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/27775

[Lost in CT]

1. You know when fraternities make up silly stories to tell the plebs...

They are not actually true...

[MineralMan]

3. Well, that's not always the case, you know.

In this case, it may well be true that early Skulls and Bones folks dug up Geronimo's grave and brought the bones to their hidey hole. Secret society boys do that kind of stuff. I hope it's true and gets exposed. I really do.

[YOY]

6. When the frat boys have money...lots of it.

Little surprises me as to the level of hijinx they get into.

I know few frats rich enough to have a clubhouse a few blocks from the white house.

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. So the skull they used in their rites was not Geronimo's?

THEN WHOSE THE FUCK WAS IT?

And doesn't THAT person deserve some dignity in death?

[Lost in CT]

20. Who knows???

It maybe Geronimo's it just seems an unlikely story.

People buy human remains all the time for theatrical productions medical schools and as decorative household items.

India has an actual export businesses dedicated to this.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Uh, noboby buys real human remains for theatrical productions.

Yorick is made of plastic.

You'll never find any more superstitious people than actors, outside of religion, and they would NEVER use real skulls.

[Lost in CT]

22. Actually there was an article a few weeks ago about the person whose skull stared

in the west end production of Hamlet.

Human skull dumped from Dr Who's Hamlet


A real human skull has stolen the show in a production of Hamlet starring Dr Who actor David Tennant, prompting the Royal Shakespeare Company to stop using it.

The skull of Polish pianist Andre Tchaikovsky proved too distracting for the audience and will be replaced by a plastic prop when the play transfers to London's West End, the RSC told Channel 4 News in Britain.

The origin of the skull had been kept a secret throughout the play's four-month run in Shakespeare's home town of Stratford-upon-Avon before Tennant revealed in an interview that it belonged to Tchaikovsky.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/04/2437394.htm

[whopis01]

23. They might not buy them.... but they use them

Pianist André Tchaikowsky left his skull to the Royal Shakespeare company in his will. They used it in a production of Hamlet from July-November of 2008.

While it may not be common to use a real skull, never say NEVER.

[awoke_in_2003]

40. Yep...

and while it is not theatrical, I know most Knights Templar commandries use real human skulls during rituals. When I was one, I knew of our source. They are real easy to get hold of. Ours used the skull of a deceased member, left at his request.

[whopis01]

54. Interesting...

I am curious... I did not know that there are current commandries of the Knights Templar... How does one find out more about this?

[happyslug]

63. Some member of the Masons claim descent from the Knights Temple.

Most such claims only appear about 1800, and more in France and the Rest of Europe then England or the US, but the claim persists. The earliest known records and account of the Masons make no such claim, but since about 1800 it has been made and a Independent organization of the same name as the Medieval Knights Templer exists (Through unlike the original Knights Temper these are NOT papal authorized).

Wikipedia on the Modern Knight Templer (Founded 1804):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_the_Temple_of_Jerusalem
http://www.osmth.org/

One of the Great Comments about the time of the US and French Revolution was that to many people were reading to much ancient Roman Republican history (i.e. up to but NOT including the Caesars). In the 1790s Europe turned to Medieval history including the Knights Templer (The Knights show up in Ivanhoe for example written in the same time period). Thus the Masons and the above group slowly adopted Templer as their "Ancestor". The Knights Templer represented a traditional Knight hood BUT since they had been banned by the Papacy, they did carry with them any Catholic baggage (As far as non-catholics were concerned) that was typical of the Knights organizations of the Middle ages.

Most Masons, while not rejecting the stories about the Knights Tempers and the Masons, embrace the most traditional view that the Masons were just that, a medieval guilds that by the 1600 had become the fraternal organization that we know today. Some people persist but most Masons give it little time or concern.

As to the above group, more a fraternal group then anything else, much like the Masons, as are the other such groups that claim the name. Such claims were popular in the early 1800s when many such groups either expanded their membership or were started about the same time.

[awoke_in_2003]

72. Oh, it is a Masonic thing...

it is the highest degree in the York Rite (an offshoot from the Blue Lodge, kinda like the Scottish Rite).

[Raster]

70. DNA testing should be able to us, now shouldn't it?

Back to the tomb or the crypt or the grave...or whatever you call it.

[roguevalley]

24. this story has been around so long, so many talking about it,

there has to be truth. I hope they own everyone's ass.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. So if lots of people believe something, it must be true?

[roguevalley]

68. people who saw it have talked. good enough?

[BuyingThyme]

65. Skull and Bones is not a fraternity.

It's a training ground for forming secret business and social alliances OUTSIDE of the college environment.

[Ferret Annica]

89. Yes it is, and it should be targetted

for destruction, by any means nessesary.

[sofa king]

67. Like how the future president of NASDAQ put a cow on the Rotunda?

http://aands.virginia.edu/x4536.xml

Or how a bunch of Cal Tech kids duped the crowd at the Rose Bowl to spell out their school's name?

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/Hoaxipedia/Great_Rose_Bowl_Hoax/

Or how the future producer of Mystery Science Theater 3000 used student government funds to create a replica of the Statue of Liberty on a frozen lake?

http://mst3k.wikia.com/wiki/Jim_Mallon

Or how a few MIT kids continue to reap the rewards of outrage from the Bonsai Kitten website?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsai_Kitten

Or how Cornell students created a fictional American hero designed to confound the Republican Party?

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/Hoaxipedia/Hugo_N._Frye/


No, boring college students and fraternities make up silly stories to amuse the pledges. Other students sit around drinking for hours or days, thinking of new ways to do absurd things, and then they do them.

Someone did steal the remains of Geronimo and those remains are protected by NAGPRA. Other possessions of Geronimo have also disappeared--and then others tried to illegally sell them. In 2006, a 1918 letter between two Skull and Bones members was made public, which said in part:

"The skull of the worthy Geronimo the Terrible, exhumed from its tomb at Fort Sill by your club... is now safe inside the together with his well worn femurs, bit and saddle horn."

So, does anyone really want to tell me that Prescott Bush, a future Nazi supporter and plotter to overthrow the federal government didn't have something to do with raiding Geronimo's grave?

[MineralMan]

2. Oh, nicely played!

I don't see any way to for Skull and Bones to get out of that one.

Well done, folks!

[no_hypocrisy]

4. They should get a search warrant and secure the club from the skull being removed.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. On what basis? There has to be some credible legal evidence behind such a warrant

[vanbean]

34. How about spite?

[spoony]

37. Don't they claim to have it? Isn't that probable cause? nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. My point is that it could be just some fratboy bragging. Nothing has ever been documented.

There is a letter from 60+ years ago, but there is no independent confirmation.

I do not support holding human remains hostage, but if we bypass basic legalities for this they will get bypassed elsewhere.

[jwirr]

39. The scull is stolen property. It will also be easy to determine the identity

of the scull with the relatives DNA. Go get em' - it is time prescott and fam. pay for desecrating a grave and theft.

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. How about by claiming that they don't have any Indian artifacts and that

they do not know where such artifacts would be?

I'm sure that the artifacts will be removed to somewhere else in short order (assuming that Skull and Bones actually has them in the first place).

[Sebastian Doyle]

5. Just another one of the many atrocities committed by the Bush Crime Family

And until we the people stand up to those fucking treasonous pieces of shit, they'll keep on doing them.

Yeah, Eric Holder, I'm talking to you. Start PROSECUTING these bastards.

[Synicus Maximus]

73. You mean like John Kerry who is also a member?

[karynnj]

75. John Kerry has been a public figure since 1971

during that entire time he has acted with integrity, honesty and has done nothing to justify your singling him out. The fact is NO ONE has stood up more consistently, taking greater risks to his career and life than Kerry.

- He stood up to Nixon on Vietnam
- He stood up to Reagan and Bush on the Contras - while half of the Democratic party agreed with the Republicans
- He stood up the entire power elite to fight BCCI

Those are three major, long term fights - BCCI lasted 5 years. All fought in his adult years. In addition, unlike Bush, he actually did not pull the strings he easily had (he dated Jackie Kennedy's step sister for a few years and his room mate at Yale was the nephew of McGeorge and William Bundy). I would assume these mean more than being selected by a fraternity in his senior year at Yale.

[politicasista]

79. Bingo n/t

[MineralMan]

7. Here's an interesting link to an article in the

Yale Alumni Journal about this subject:

http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2006_05/notebook.html

[gauguin57]

8. This lawsuit is decades overdue!

Real funny prank, Prescott Bush ... digging up a famed Native American and stealing his skull for your bunch of rich, white, elite fratboys to play with.

We all know that Prescott later went into business with the Nazis ... a real shining character, that one. And the apples haven't fallen far from the tree.

[Wizard777]

9. Have they verified that Geronimo's remains are indeed missing?

[hlthe2b]

15. That was what I wondered... why not exhume his grave?

[Xithras]

46. IIRC, there is some strong reasoning that the skull isn't Geronimo's

The Skull & Bones have never said anything about it one way or the other, but a letter from WWI does indicate that they dug up a skull, and several Bonesers (or whatever they call themselves...Bonsies?) were present at Ft. Sill when the theft actually happened. There's just one problem with the story: Geronimo's grave wasn't marked when the skull was supposed to have been stolen, and he was buried by other Apaches and not by soldiers. A monument was placed on his grave many years after the theft was supposed to have occurred, and the person responsible for that monument (a historical librarian at the fort) had to work hard to convince the Apaches to reveal the location of Geronimo's grave. At the time the theft happened, the actual location of the grave was unknown to anyone other than a handful of Apaches.

The assumption among many researchers is that the Skull and Bones may have obtained a skull and items from a grave, but it would have been a random shot for them to have happened upon the real grave of Geronimo. In all probability, they have a skull from another Native American who was buried in the same yard.

[Wizard777]

53. Funny thing. Skulls can also be evidence of muder.

They should go in with a search warrant. If they find any skulls or other bodily parts. I would round up everylast living bonesman and hold them on suspicion of murder until they tell who's skulls they are and how they came by them.

[Xithras]

57. But even a simple search warrant requires evidence.

That's the problem with the whole thing...the evidence here is innuendo only. No living Boner has claimed that they have it, no photographs of it exist, and no third party witnesses have seen it. There's no evidence to support a warrant.

I would hope that an Obama presidency means that we're moving AWAY from the era of issuing warrants based only on suspicion and innuendo.

[Wizard777]

69. I know that. I was being deviously facetious and beating them at their own crook.

;-)

[cannabis_flower]

58. Is that person...

even still alive? Prescott Bush is long gone. Probably anyone else that might have orginally brought the skull.

[cannabis_flower]

59. dupe

[cannabis_flower]

60. dupe

[Synicus Maximus]

74. Geronimos death is well documented.

Geronimo died of pneumonia on February 17, 1909 at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, and was buried at the Apache Indian Prisoner of War Cemetery there.

[geardaddy]

62. I think they're called Boners.

;)

[glinda]

64. Much of what you say is true. They move the bodies to protect them and only elders

would truly know the truth. It is kept so very quiet. It is just like in northern MN. where a certain white community fawns over the supposed grave in their graveyard of a American Indian they made famous (through their prejudice actually). They think he is there but he has been moved a long time ago.

[Xithras]

71. IIRC, there's even some question about whether Geronimo was ever buried there.

I remember reading many MANY years ago that an Apache rumor existed claiming that the grave of Geronimo is fake. As I said in the last post, he was buried by Apache elders in an unmarked grave because they didn't want anyone defiling his gravesite. Many years later a historian at the base began probing the Apaches to reveal his gravesite so it could be marked properly. It took a while, but the Apache's eventually relented and identified a spot as Geronimo's grave. Several years later, however, a few other Apache's claimed that the gravesite identified by the elders wasn't actually Geronimo's grave at all, but was another grave that the elders had identified as Geronimo's just to shut the Army historian up. The claim is that the Apaches still distrusted the soldiers even decades after Geronimo died, and that they still didn't want anyone else to know the actual gravesite location.

Everyone involved is long dead, so the only way to settle it now would be to exhume the grave and DNA test the bones against living descendants.

[Earth_First]

10. "322" n/t!

[xchrom]

11. recommend

[enlightenment]

12. I wonder if this would fall under NAGPRA regs,

since the 'Order' is sanctioned by the uni - and the uni receives federal dollars (grants, etc).

[Iggo]

13. It's okay, because Indians aren't real people!

[FourScore]

17. Whoever dug them up should go to jail. n/t

[Lost in CT]

25. I think if someone dug them up they are long dead. nt

[NoodleyAppendage]

18. It might be possible to perform a genetic analysis on the skull material to confirm ancestry. n/t

J

[THUNDER HANDS]

19. you'd think a college in Oklahoma would have them

not Connecticut. I mean, that's a long trek for a set of bones. Wasn't there anyone famous in Connecticut they could have stolen a skull from?

[cascadiance]

26. Check out "Crazy Ind'n" which deals with this very subject...

An animated flick that postulates a story of how The Indians rise up against Bush and the Skull and Bones folks to get Geronimo's skull back...



Trailer:

http://www.crazyindn.com/trailer.html

http://www.crazyindn.com/documentation.html

It has been on either Free Speech TV or Link TV (can't remember which).

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Why doesn't someone just ask John Kerry?

[politicasista]

31. How about we not drag a good Dem's name into this story?

Even if S&B is an fraternity (I am in a sorority).

Never mind a hardworking senator that has thrown a lot of crumbs to the liberal, progressive base more than our elected reps.

It's time to leave Kerry alone. He is now a good Dem progressive and isn't running for anything.

[hugo_from_TN]

35. Then he should let everyone know if they have it.

If he's such a good progressive, why would he try to cover it up?

[politicasista]

36. Whatever!

Believe what you want. I am also from TN (thankfully Blue Davidson County). I would take a Senator Kerry over the worthless Cracker, I mean Corker any day.

Why don't you blame a republican (i.e. Bush) instead of trashing a good Dem here. I forgot, this is Trash Democrats Underground here. :eyes:

[CoffeeCat]

56. I fail to see how this is "trashing."

Ok, sorority girl from Tennessee, maybe you need to calm down.

Why in the world would the suggestion that someone "ask John Kerry" be such a bad thing?

John Kerry is probably one of the last people in S&B who still has a conscience and a shred of decency.

We've got a group of people who have a very infamous, negative reputation. Hoping that one
of their more moral members just might be able to shed some truth--is a good thing.

It's certainly not 'Democrat trashing' as you're suggesting.

[politicasista]

78. Nothing wrong with that

My sorority has been sued once before, but we don't slam people who turned out to be excellent servants for America and the world, and their communities for being a member.

It's just that people have been defending Kerry since 2003 from Skulls and Bones (see 2nd the last poster) and other bashfest post. I am thankful I didn't join until after the 04 election.

Not to mention talk that he "threw the election to Bush" when he worked as hard (as President Obama did in 08) to win the 04 election. Not to say that mistakes were not made, but he had NO Democratic Party support and had a media, and a fear-minded public working against him. It's interesting that he did as well as he could considering the non-stop bashing from the liberal blogsphere, and lack of party, media support. He won all three debates decisively. He is one of the very few that has stood up to the GOP and is on our side.

And you are right, he is one of the few with some decency left in govt. I said apologies to the poster above if it was over the top. Maybe I am just thin-skinned and get tired of the Dem bashing, P.O. bashing. :shrug:

And thanks for the "sorority girl" comment, I don't need to calm down. I am fine thank you.

[bitchkitty]

94. His membership in Skull and Bones

is why I held my nose when I voted for him.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. Its not dragging to ask him to tell what he knows and do the right thing

It would be the progressive thing to do.

[politicasista]

50. Why don't you e-mail him?

If you and others know his history, you would know that he is one of the few honest lawmakers out there and has never stopped doing the right thing.

There is NO lawmaker has exposed more government corruption in modern history than Senator Kerry. And one of the few that has stood up for progressive issues, while many were silent.

This may be fun for some in this thread, but me don't play the game of smearing those who are on our side. Especially since we have a Dem president that is inheriting the worst mess in years. One who is putting the country first unlike the Bush Family Evil Empire.

Peace.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. Which means the story is most probably not true

since he would speak up and take action

[politicasista]

55. Maybe.

It does smell fishy though. Apologies for the over the top posts (if any) :hi:

[David Zephyr]

30. Prescott Bush.

This took a long time, but this will be very interesting to watch now that Bush does not control the Justice Department.

[awoke_in_2003]

41. Nothing will happen..

they will hide the skull and say it was all a hoax. They will produce a skull obtained legally, or a fake one, and say this is what they use. They will let all the members in on it (they are pretty good about keeping their mouths shut). When it all blows over, they will bring it out of hiding. This is all based on the assumption they actually have it.

[underpants]

32. Sorry but this suit is not going anywhere.

The Skull and Bones (IF they have the thing) are far too connected to not make this go away

[Xithras]

47. Not only that, but it's hearsay anyway.

It may be "well-known", but there's zero actual evidence that they have a skull. The Skull and Bones have never commented about it to the public, none of their members will come forward and say one way or the other, and there's no third party evidence that anything illicit happened. All they have are rumors and a single letter from WWI where a Boner who wasn't even attending the school claimed to have stolen it and sent it to their crypt. That letter would have barely qualified as evidence 90 years ago when it was written (it could have been written off as youthful boasting), and is even less evidence today since everyone involved with the society at that time is now dead. That letter offers nothing to suggest that they still have it today, or that any existing members have ever seen it.

I'd guess that any decent lawyer would carve this case to ribbons and get it tossed on the first hearing. Both Yale and the S&B have LOTS of decent lawyers.

[happygoluckytoyou]

33. is it EMPTY.... could just be an old BUSH relative ?

[yellerpup]

38. Here's an idea. Dig up Prescott Bush and trade his skull

for Geronimo's. Since Prescott was the original grave robber the family couldn't possibly object. It's just old bones, right?

[1620rock]

42. Yes, dig up Prescott and use his skull for a urinal.

[pjt7]

45. The Apache's

should dig up Prescott Bush's bones

[yellerpup]

49. Why not?

They could make up a game and tour with a carnival. Anyone could play.

[yellerpup]

48. It's a secret society so they can do anything they want with it.

They can respect him the same way they respected Geronimo.

[peacetalksforall]

52. "crooking"

[D23MIURG23]

61. I always thought the stuff about Geronimo was bullshit.

But I love this anyway.

Hang those pompous yalie junior nazis up by their undies!

:evilgrin:

[Fireweed247]

66. Some people say Skull and Bones is the reason that Kerry 'lost' in 2004

And according to Alexandra Robbins(who was threatened for her book on Skull and Bones), it is much more than a fraternity...


"Skull and Bones is really much more than a college club. In fact the year that the members spend in it, their senior year at Yale (there are 15 members tapped for Skull and Bones membership each year) is really just the beginning. Skull and Bones is a powerful alumni network, perhaps the most elite network in the country and it really focuses on life after college. What Kerry did was he tried to recruit Jacob Weissberg from his senate office in Washington to become a member of Skull and Bones. And Weissberg ended up declining the invitation, but he was shocked that Kerry was a member of the society, which so clearly exhibited a history of misogyny, and he challenged Kerry on it."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0122-10.htm

"Skull and Bones is America's most powerful secret society. It's based at Yale, where it's headquartered in a building called the Tomb, and Skull and Bones has included among its members, presidents, including presidents George W. Bush and his father, as well as William Howard Taft, Supreme Court Chief Justices, C.I.A. officials, cabinet members, congressmen and senators. What makes it so staggering that we could have a Skull and Bones versus Skull and Bones, Kerry versus Bush election is that this is a tiny tiny club. There are only 800 living members. Only 15 per year. It's staggering that two of them could be facing off for the presidency and so many of them have achieved positions of prominence. One of the interesting and I think disturbing things about Skull and Bones is that its purpose is to get members into positions of power and have those members hire other members into prestigious positions. This is something we have seen with George W. Bush since his ascendancy to the presidency, he has put several Bones members into prestigious positions, such as Bill Donaldson, the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission. The number two and number three guys in the Justice Department, the guy that puts out all of Bush's secrecy memos. His assistant Attorney General is a major Bonesman. Bonesman Frederick Smith was Bush's top choice for Secretary of Defense until he had to withdraw for health reasons. The general council of the Office of Homeland Security, the Secretary of Defense’s representative to Europe. The list goes on and on and on."

[karynnj]

76. Then "some people" are idiots - because only an idiot would think that

Kerry and his entire family put their heart and soul into winning - if you followed the Kerry/Edwards blog, you would have seen the incredible schedule he took on. The fact of the matter is that a cursory look at Kerry's biography shows that he more than any Senator challenged Bush 1. You conveniently ignore that Kerry went against him on Vietnam, the Contras, and BCCI.

Then consider that Kerry destroyed Bush in all three debates.

Then consider if there was a "deal", one would think it would include preserving Senator Kerry's reputation. The fact is that they smeared not just his genuinely heroic service, but his career, personality and accomplishments and even his marriage. In addition they attacked his wife, who had always been very well liked as the wife of a Republican Senator. In her case, they totally distorted a soft spoken, brilliant, very nice woman into the opposite.

The fact is that NOTHING in 2004 and NOTHING in his career support the lunacy you write. You may want to consider that in a gallup poll the week before the election 59% of the country said the country was doing either "very well" or "fairly well". Given that and the fact that change in a time of war is not as likely - Kerry did a phenomenal job making the race close - and in fact, had there been enough machines in Ohio - he very likely would have won. This in spite of tepid support from the Clinton wing of the party (could Begala and Carville been more useless?) and a media that was very biased against him - so biased they treated the purple heart band aids as if they were the funny hats of 2004.

[politicasista]

77. Excellent post

You may or may not hear crickets, but it's a good smackdown.

[Fireweed247]

84. kerry said he would fight for all of our votes

and then backed down so quickly I wanted to throw up, after all of the work that everyone had done to get him into office. This plays perfectly into the idea that he threw it.

He won the debates, but who wouldn't win a debate against Bush? He could have said a lot more and exposed the whole war for the fraud it was and still is, but he was too 'nice'.

Kerry is all part of the dog and pony show. During the recent Winter Soldier hearings, someone approached him for his opinion on it...he said he had no idea and wasn't paying any attention.

[karynnj]

85. It is now over 4 years later, the Democrats have controlled Ohio for

over two years - there is still no definitive proof that anyone could use that Kerry won Ohio. There was nothing he could do about it.

As to any one being able to win a debate with Bush - he actually did well against Gore (though I thought Gore won) - with Kerry the media conceded that he very very easily beat him on the first one - and his spinners even gave one. In fact, after losing when Kerry and Bush were both at an event that gave the Congressional medal to Jackie Robinson - something Kerry had been the sponsor of - Bush said that he didn't mind seeing Kerry if he didn't have to debate him.

As to saying something more about the war - he said that they didn't secure Known ammo dumps and that "our kids" were killed and maimed from ieds made from it. Think what that was saying. The fact of the matter is that he won some people who thought the the country was doing either very well or fairly well - a Gallup poll right before the election said 59% answered that way. The fact is that there was a balance - he needed to be Presidential, intelligent and nice or those people in the middle would stick with Bush or not vote. Kerry morphing into Michael Moore would have lost in a landslide.

As to dog and pony show - name me anyone within the government who has stood up more often and better than Kerry did. As to the winter soldier hearings - I have never seen that comment and if made, was likely an honest answer. He has been extremely busy doing his job.

You didn't even have the guts to stand behind your attack in your upstream post. You are apparently the "some people" - and what I stand behind what I said of those "some people". John Kerry stood up to Nixon before the entire country - and you, brave soul that you are, hide behind "some people" on an anonymous message board.

[politicasista]

86. **crickets**

They seem to always chirp after that question is asked.

[Fireweed247]

88. what is with the tag team attacks?

It seems that you are the one with nothing to say. I was busy living my life, so sorry I didn't get right back to the other poster.

[Fireweed247]

87. name me anyone within the government who has stood up more often and better than Kerry did

Kucinich.

Bullshit on the election. There was plenty of evidence to pursue. The reason we don't know about all of the fraud is that Kerry immediately stood down and the press followed suit. If Kerry had spoken about the many obvious examples of cheating that went on in Ohio, the press would have been forced to follow his lead.

Kerry hasn't don't crap. Has he been fighting to end the war? Has he been fighting to cancel the patriot act?

If Kerry is such a great anti war fighter, why wasn't he paying attention to the recent winter soldier hearings. How could he possibly not care about such a thing? He should have been the one holding it, leading it, helping raise awareness about it. He is a phony. You said he was too busy- doing what?? Examples please.

If he worked so hard to end the war in Vietnam, how was he so easily fooled into going along with the Iraq war?

I actually don't give a shit about Kerry, but he screwed everyone over in that election, which led to the death of many more innocent people.

[karynnj]

91. Sorry - you are wrong - Kuchinich did not takes risks as great as Kerry

did in fighting BCCI or Iran/Contra. In addition, Kerry had more to risk - he early on was seen as having the stature, eloquence and accomplishments to be a future President. He was asked if he wanted to be President by Morey Safer when he was 27 - his answer was sure, but that were important things that needed to be done and he did not know if he could do them and keep people happy enough with him. ("things" were fighting to end the war.)

Kerry led the fight to end the war with Kerry/Feingold. The structure of K/F is the root of every 2008 Democratic exit plan. K/F has done FAR MORE to move American opinion than anything Kuchinich did. He was vilified in the media for doing it.

As to the Patriot Act, he was one of the Senators that fought to improve it in 2006 and 2007 - voting for every filibuster. The fact is that there were many things in the Patriot Act that were needed - including Kerry written legislation to fight international money laundering that he had tried to past years earlier and was blocked by Republicans and Democrats who were against it because the banks were.

You still have not provided a link to your claim on the winter soldier hearing - so that can be discounted. Kerry has met with many anti-war vets - and many supported him in 2004 and afterward - especially Jon Powers, Jon Soltz and Patrick Murphy. It is very hard to comment on your assertion because it has no context or substance. (Here's a link to his effort to reach out to Soltz - even in the midst of 2004. http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/30/nation/na-soltz30 )

As to being fooled to going along on Iraq - he wasn't. He said when he voted that he would speak out if Bush did not follow the course Bush laid out - where going to war was a last resort - and he did speak out before the invasion against rushing to war without exhausting diplomacy and letting the inspectors finish. Your knowledge of history is pretty poor if you do not know that Kerry worked very hard to end the Vietnam War. From the Nixon tapes, Kerry was the ONLY antiwar advocate he feared, because he saw that Kerry could change the opinion of people who were totally put off by the antiwar movement. He has often paid a price for that over the last 38 years. He is rightfully proud of what he did. You need to pick up a history book.

As to Ohio - no matter how convinced you are that he won - the fact is that there STILL IS NO PROOF THAT WOULD HAVE STOOD UP in a Republican state with Republican judges. Part of the problem was that many ways used to suppress the Ohio vote were not illegal - such as not having adequate machines in Democratic strongholds. As to voter suppression and fraud - there were at least 10 times just in 2005 that Kerry spoke of this. FAR more than any other elected official. He and Feingold even wrote legislation in 2006 that sought to require that paper ballots, that would be counted as regular votes, be available if lines were to long or machines didn't work. This would have fixed the biggest problem in 2004. I note you don't blame Kuchinich - an elected official in OHIO for not pushing to fix the Ohio Democratic party or draw attention to the election fraud that occurred in elections in his state. Some of the biggest problems were in the city he was once mayor of. Now is that fair? I don't think it is - as his job is to be a Congressman - but it is fairer than blaming Kerry - who was the victim of the failure of the Democratic party between 2000 to 2004 in really fixing the election process. NO candidate could fix it between March 2004 when he became the presumptive nominee.

The fact of the matter is that the same team that told Gore to contest after he conceded the first time told Kerry there was no case. Nothing Kerry could have done would have made him President - so your last comment is shameful. What he could do and did do was to reach out and beg people to stay involved - and he did everything he could to help the Democrats regain power in 2006 and 2008.

[Fireweed247]

93. Great job Kerry-looks like he got nothing accomplished

How much of economic meltdown is just Iran Contra, Continued?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5118451&mesg_id=5118451

He was johnny come lately to his 'attempt' to end the Iraq war which is still going strong and I see nothing he has done that has helped at all. He could have signed onto the bipartisan bill "Homeward Bound" created by Kucinich and Walter Jones several years earlier but he didn't really give a damn.



What is shameful is how you keep pumping Kerry. NO ONE BELIEVES THAT KERRY DID EVERYTHING HE COULD DURING THE 2004 ELECTION. That is complete bullshit and I don't think you are convincing anyone but nice try.


No one who is a great anti war leader would completely ignore the recent Winter Soldier hearings. He wasn't there and he didn't care.

[karynnj]

95. If the problem is Iran/Contra - there is NO ONE in either house of

Congress who did more to fight the Reagan administration. (Boland and several MA congressmen are the only ones who equal him.) What did Kuchinich do on that or BCCI? Nothing - which does not make him bad.

Kerry and Feingold created the exit plan that became the plan the country most supports. They did get 51 votes putting a variation into an appropriation bill that was vetoed by Bush. The fact is that was as much as they could do while Bush was President. How close did Kuchinich come to getting his bill passed? The fact is K/F was a serious bill that even John Warner, the Republican chair of the Armed Services committee, praised, but said it was not time yet.

Your "bold" statement is demonstrably wrong - because I believe he did everything he could - which already proves the statement wrong - and I am not alone. You can stomp your feet all you want or put things in bold, but that doesn't make you right.

The facts of what Kerry did when he came home from Vietnam are really not in question. He was the man able to bring many middle Americans over to oppose the war. The recent Winter Soldier hearings were not the be all and end all of the investigation of what happened in Iraq - just because they used the name that was used in the 1971 event - as I said, Kerry has listened to many returning vets - as I mentioned. I met a MA Vietnam Vet - who has known and supported Kerry since the 1970s. His reason for still being there making calls for Kerry after 4 decades is that he knows that Kerry does care. (Here is a video of Kerry with Worcester vets - http://www.jkmediasource.org/node/162 )

[defendandprotect]

82. As JFK said, more or less . . . "Secrecy and Secret Societies are un-American" . . .

and "a threat to democracy."

[Canuckistanian]

80. SEARCH WARRANT

Get a Search Warrant. Now.

[tammywammy]

92. What probable cause is there?

So far this is a rumor and innuendo that they have it.

[defendandprotect]

81. One thing's sure . . . the GOP are still warning on the native American . . .

[Imagevision]

83. Babs and Poppy Bush must be laughing their asses off....

[rabs]

90. Mescaleros say it is wrong

The following was posted on Friday on a local forum by a poster who identified himself as a member of the Mescalero Apache tribe in Mescalero, NM, reservation home to Apaches.


Myself as well as my family think that what Harlyn Geronimo is doing is wrong. All tribal members know that once a burial has taken place it is to remain undisturbed. Harlyn Geronimo is not even a 'Geronimo' he changed his last name from 'Via' to Geronimo. He claims he is a medicine man which we think is a lot of BS because he does not even no anything about being a medicine man. He has not been hired for many coming of age ceremonies for girls. What he is doing is an embarassment to the tribe. As old as he is he should know better. He should let the REAL Geronimo descendents decide what to do. The president of the tribe said that he will not have much support with this deal, I think that is true. All people know not to bother a gravesite. Even younger children know that. Shows how much respect he has.