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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:48 AM
Original message
Holder: U.S. a 'nation of cowards' on race discussions
Source: CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In a blunt assessment of race relations in the United States, Attorney General Eric Holder Wednesday called the American people "essentially a nation of cowards" in failing to openly discuss the issue of race.

In his first major speech since being confirmed, the nation's first black attorney general told an overflow crowd celebrating Black History Month at the Justice Department the nation remains "voluntarily socially segregated."

"Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards," Holder declared.

Holder urged Americans of all races to use Black History Month as a time to have a forthright national conversation between blacks and whites to discuss aspects of race which are ignored because they are uncomfortable.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/18/holder.race.relations/



I think he is correct.
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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wow.
Strong words. Hope he doesn't back away from them.

:thumbsup:
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I guess we'll see when it comes to prosecuting Republicans who broke the law
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TEmperorHasNoClothes Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. so what's your idea of how to move things forward?
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. Apparently, go back to the good ol' days
when racial slurs and jokes were all the norm. You know, before we got into all this touchy-feely politically correct stuff. :eyes:

Gee, and do you wonder why he was tombstoned?
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Ouch!
Not that I disagree, but someone that high up talking that strongly.. wow.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. I also think that he's correct
way to go, Holder!
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grannie4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. good show-holder!!! i think you are great!!!!!!!
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KnaveRupe Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. Ok. That was a dumb comment.
Not because it wasn't true, or a valid observation, or didn't NEED to be said, or whatever.

It was dumb because it gives the whiny-ass Republicans control of the news cycle. They are desperate, on-the-ropes losers, and the mainstream media was just coming around to where they were forced to acknowledge the GOP's self-imposed irrelevance, and now this.

Here's a hint: the people of America suffer from a little bit of a hubris thing. Whether you call us "a nation of whiners" a la Phil Gramm, or a "nation of cowards" on the issue of race (which I happen to think we, in many ways, are), the people of this fine nation, not known for our introspection, will want your head on a pike. And that's NOT what Obama needs right now.

In keeping with the odious, yet oh-so-popular "politics as sport" metaphor, this was a fumble in the Red Zone. Let's just hope the GOP doesn't return it for a touchdown.
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Jawja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I agree.
Not very smart of Holder to use the "coward" word in a context that can be interpreted that "Americans are Cowards."

It will dominate the news cycle and it will give a shot in the arm to the GOP. It will bring to a screeching halt the momentum Obama has gained through media coverage of the last couple of weeks.
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. when have the republicans
not had control of the news cycle?
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KnaveRupe Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. Exactly.
Which is why we need to at least make them WORK to control it.

Handing them a pre-made non-issue like this to demagogue is, IMHO, stupid. I'll bet you Obama is not patting Holder on the back and saying "good job!"

This is the kind of crap that republicans cream their jeans over. By this evening, the Republican Outrage Machine of Doom will be whirling full-tilt, with calls for Holder to resign.
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Well Gee, that sux
that he has to censor himself while speaking at a Black History Month event for fear that repubs are gonna call for his head. If you ask me, I think even if he hadn't said it they are still busy hatching up some grand plot to IMPEACH! They bullied Clinton all through his presidency and I don't for a second think that they won't do the same to Barack. My hope is that this time, we fight back and call them on their b.s. Enough of this capitulation crap!
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KnaveRupe Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
66. I'm all for fighting back against the repubs.
I'm hoping Holder investigates, indicts, and imprisons the lot of 'em.

But he didn't call the GOP cowards, he called Americans cowards. That allows the Repub asswipes to go to "middle America" via the Foxneus and say SEE? HUISSIEN OBAMA AND HIS RADICAL BLACKTIVIST FRIENDZ THINK U R A COWARD!!! OMG!!! ARE U GONNA TAKE THAT RFOM THEM?!?!11!eleventy!11

It was a stupid comment, because it helps Republicans. Helping Republicans is stupid.
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #66
85. o.k I see your point but...
doesn't watching everything one says for fear that the repubs will come down on us mean effectively that they control us?
I agree that saying what he said would have probably gotten him into trouble had he said it BEFORE his nomination, and Barack certainly stayed away from that 'blacktivist' stuff before the elections but considering that he is in charge of the justice department that was run by a total do-nothing conservative ass who ignored civil rights complaints, maybe this kind of talk will put the fear of God into employers etc who might think it's still ok to discriminate against any kind of people.
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KnaveRupe Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Fair enough. You certainly make good points.
I agree with whoever it was downthread that said that if Obama wants to have this fight at this time, then I support him. I am operating under the assumption that Obama has an agenda he's trying to pass, and that this will detract from it.

But if this is something that Obama wants out there NOW, rather than just a misstatement by Holder, then rock on. I certainly agree with the sentiment, although I think the other posters who are pointing out that the discussion needs to go beyond race and include class are even closer to the mark.
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Alas
therein lies the dilemma. The dicussion on class should be the ultimate goal, but while poor people continue to allow wedge issues such as race, gay rights, illegal immigrants etc to divide them, republicans will keep on getting their votes. Maybe it's just a really long process but until people get over these hangups then the class issue can't be resolved.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
8. Speak for yourself, counselor
We've been discussing race for decades. It's class that gets short shrift.:think:
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. No one seems to want to talk about that.
When the gulf between the classes is so wide and involves various ethnic makeup, I've always wondered why.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
53. I'd say follow the money
The truly wealthy and their propagandists in the MSM don't want anyone to talk about class.

What better way to divide and conquer than to pit one group against another? It's african-american v. white middle/working class, latino immigrant v. white native, muslim v. judeo-christian and so on.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
96. As long as poor white people value their whiteness more than the ability
to improve things by joining up with their equally poor black brethren class will have to take a back seat to race in the discussion.

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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Do we discuss race with our co-workers?
Our neighbors? You're correct that 'class' isn't discussed, but perhaps its because that logically follows race.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
50. But it doesn't logically follow race
It wasn't "racial" when European immigrants were teeming in tenements, slaving at the very low paying jobs, to cite just one example.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. Well, Tom, there weren't many (if any) of other 'races' than caucasian
coming from old Europe at the time, were there? You're talking about around the turn of the 20th Century, aren't you?

At that time in this country, those of different races than caucasian were, in fact, 'slaving' at menial agricultural jobs in the south and west, and at domestic and blue collar jobs in the north. Those who were fortunate were able to obtain educations which helped them to improve their economic status, yet they remained socially segregated.

Brown v. Board of Education was decided in 1954, and was argued in the Supreme Court by Thurgood Marshall. Economic/class changes were occurring (slowly) BEFORE, I think, social change began, and they are still very new in this country, I think.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Those were the same jobs European immigrants had
And it started in the mid-1800s and lasted for a century.

The rest of what you say is true.
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fjc Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
49. Horsehockey
There's been as much attention to class as race, ie, they've been played off one another for decades.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Well, I'd put it differently
Race has been used to mask, subsume and deflect class conflict.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. And DO TELL... WHO controls THAT narrative?
And WHO laps it up to "preserve" their perceived hierarchical "heritage?" :rofl:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. The very wealthy
Well, you tell me, since you're so smart. Who is it behind the curtain, Snarky? The Wizard of Oz?

Yes, there's a special white racial master plan to subjugate all other "races." :eyes:

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. You failed to answer the second part of my question.
:shrug:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. The answer is . . .
Welcome to my ignore list.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. Coward!
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #63
97. You still didn't answer her question.
I for one am quite interested in hearing your answer.

Regards
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fjc Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
79. And I'd put it the other way around.
They're both a bit true, but I think the reverse of yours is more the case since forever.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #79
91. But why would that be?
Why would class mask or deflect racial questions? Few white businessmen, individually or as a class, seek profits to achieve some sort of racial domination; few use class to achieve racial superiority. There are rich, smart black people on Wall Street; they're educated and qualified and, most importantly, they buy into the system.

On the other hand, race has certainly been used to split the middle and working classes - ask Kevin Phillips or read Lee Atwater, that was the whole point of Southern strategy.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. true, but that would not have happened if people didn't harbor
racist feelings. you can't exploit something that doesn't exist already.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. He should have phrased it differently. Just ask Bill Maher. However, it's ironic that
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 07:16 AM by No Elephants
he says Americans are afraid to discuss race openly and the ensuing brouhaha proves him right.

Again, this is a reflection on our media. Holder's remarks could have been the occasion for thoughtful dialogue about whether he is correct or not. Instead, the media starts another circus.

Just more evidence that the media needs to shape up.
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Fconnect Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
73. Do you think
that he was actually talking about white people? Think about it, as a white person myself, I'm reluctant to talk race with blacks for fear of being labeled a racist if I disagree.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #73
94. The man said America.
Do you think that America is only made up of white people?

There's your answer.

Regards
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byeya Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
11. Class, not race, is the forbidden issue to raise.
Since the republiKKKans broke the post WWII social contract with its attack on wage earners, no serious public discussion of the class war has been allowed to take place.
And, when the AG talks about race, what he means is talking about people with an African heritage.
The Hmong, Laotions, Mexicans, Indians, have all managed, in one way or another, to find a place, however humble, in the USA. So what he's talking about are African Americans and it seems to me there has been ample talk, though little action, on the topic.
I am hopeful that he'll back up his talk, although I disagree with his premise, with action which will benefit the USA. A good place to start is the union checkoff ballot because the unions have made the middle class and blacks have shared in that.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
65. Class is a big topic, but so is race. And it was a Black History Month speech.
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Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. So Do I!
And I don't agree this may give the GOP any kind of "touch down," since Obama was elected after the lies of his ties with Muslim extremism, the use of Reverend Wright by the media, the so-called relationship with Bill Ayers, Clinton saying only she could get the
White vote, his "fake" birth certificate, et cetera, et cetera, the country can handle a little bit of truth. If not now then when? I just tire of hearing about what the GOP "might do." Sheesh, we know what they will do. Good God, they are leaderless, disorganized, and destroying their party before our very eyes.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
40. True, that
Yeah, he kicked over the hornet's nest. But who's to say the hornets won't start stinging each other?
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floridablue Donating Member (996 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. Dear General - Bite Me
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
32. Oh I'm Sure He Wasnt Talking About You!
:eyes:
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
15. "...discuss aspects of race which are ignored because they are uncomfortable."
Not discussing uncomfortable racial aspect doesn't make people cowards, it makes them smart. Frankly, it's suicide for even an average Joe but especially for politicians.

Anyone want to start a topic here on DU mentioning an "uncomfortable aspect of race"? Go right ahead. You'll see the reaction and that's why such topic are never discussed.

For those of you who agree with him, make a stand and start the discussion.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. "suicide for the average Joe..."?
That's a bit over the top, isn't it? And you think Holder just committed political suicide? I think not.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. He hasn't done anything yet.
If he has an uncomfortable topic to discuss, let him bring it up. Saying people are cowards is, well, somewhat cowardly himself.

If he wants some topics discussed, why not bring up those topics. He won't though because it is political suicide.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Dude, he just did.
What do you think he just did my making that statement? He brought up an uncomfortable racial topic in the most public way possible. What more do you want?

And to be clear, he said Americans are cowards when it comes to race (which is undeniably true). He didn't say, "Americans are cowards."
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. No he didn't
He said no one discusses uncomfortable racial topics without bringing up an example.

What he did is equivalent to a group of boys on the high dive and one boy saying they are all cowards for not jumping.

Let's see him jump first, then he can talk.

Saying no one discusses uncomfortable topics ISN'T the same as bringing one of those topic up for discussion.



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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Oh my god
Your cluelessness is astonishing. I'm speechless.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Speechless?
That's probably the best thing for you.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
62. Do you have the text of Holdeer's entire speech, or are you going by only what
CNN and the rest of the media cherrypicked for a sensational story? Even at that, the CNN article quotes Holder as citing voluntary social segregation. That's an example of something that, according to Holder, is not often discussed.
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
16. I just sent an email to USDOJ re: Holder's "nation of cowards" comment
I started it: "Maybe AG Holder is too young to remember Mississippi in the mid-60s -- I'm not."

Then I copied and pasted the OP from this DU thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8201082&mesg_id=8201082

If any of you want to say anything to AG Holder yourselves, here's the email address:

AskDOJ@usdoj.gov
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. Very true.
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 08:59 AM by MellowDem
I agree with Holder. And especially so here on DU. I've been to the race forum here, and there are few if any real discussions there ever. One time, I saw someone try to start a topic about where race came from, and they were banned after a short and violent flamefest from other members. Holder is right.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=225x2081
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
95. I am not surprised. You are as clueless about race as he is.
The poster basically posited that there is no such thing as a racist because for him to see racism it has to be dressed in white robes and burning a cross. Well it doesn't show up that way very often anymore because people who partake in such activities are rightfully scorned. That does not mean that there aren't more subtle, insidious forms of racism of which you are so obviously oblivious. It is no wonder that that discussion was locked. There was no honest desire to discuss anything about race it was a post seeking validation for a rather wrong-headed view in the first place.

Regards
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
19. Of course he's correct.
As a white person I've been raised to be self-conscious of race. My mother to this day is one of those people who whispers the word "black people" for fear of being heard talking about the color of someone's skin. You know, when someone says, "I was at the store yesterday and I saw this (whisper) black man (end whisper) applying for a job at one of those automated kiosks."

This has been ingrained in me to the point where I am highly uncomfortable talking about race. I'd rather just ignore it. If I have to describe a person to someone I am always terrified that I'll have to fall back to describing them as "black".
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Well, sometimes, 'black' is an appropriate description. As is 'male', 'female', 'tall', etc.
It's okay. It doesn't represent a value judgment.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
98. Thank you for your honesty

As a Black American, this is the type of discussion that I know Eric Holder was talking about.

It needs to be discussed and addressed in a positive way and you did that.... thanks again.
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sunnybrook Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. I agree with the substance of his remarks
100%. Unfortunately it may not politically expedient for him to have said that, but then again, maybe I lack vision. We are so accustomed to leaders that play by political rules, instead of making strong statements that could provoke a backlash. But sometimes those statements could have a positive effect long term, while just looking stupid or naive in the short term. The reality is that people will jump all over the "we elected a black president and now we are post racial" but Obama had to handle race with kid gloves, it was said he could not be seen as "angry" or that he had to try to make people not think about his race (of course I am referring to white people.) The speech he gave on race was brilliant, but what I am saying is that we are not as far as many people who want to constantly sweep this under the rug would have us believe. I have to say I don't know how this is going to play out long term politically, but it is not untrue.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
21. Riiiight . . .
and starting that "dialogue" by calling ALL Americans cowards is such a good, positive start leading to a productive exchange of ideas. :sarcasm:
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. True.
Just as I was upset by Michelle Obama's comments that "white people" thought that families like the Huxtables existed only in fiction. Huh? I sure knew folks like them.

I'm a fan of Michelle - in part because she says stuff like this - but you just can't generalize about people like that. White people are a really diverse group!
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
22. Except for the military community. We're not cowards. nt
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
25. Freeper heads will explode over this one!!
But he is ABSOLUTELY correct. He'll catch shit for sure for this comment, but Holder is dead on on this subject. Just hope he can keep his big brass set intact.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
28. Excellent speech, and I hope he in no way backs away from it.
Well done Holder!
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
30. This is true for more than just race.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TEmperorHasNoClothes Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
33. Brilliant choice of words...
Using the word "cowards" might just be reverse psychology. Perhaps his words will challenge some people to prove they aren't cowards and not only willing, but also capable of having this discussion. This can be done by black and white churches inviting each other to services, social events etc. There can be open panels among those in academia and moderated town hall meetings with people who want to forge ahead. Surely there are racists who will refuse to change, but that doesn't mean those of us who want to move forward can't at least try.
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Lost in CT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
34. He is correct but for the wrong reasons.
First of all cowards is a unfortunately charged word. It seems remarkable tone deaf and guaranteed to give the right wing talking points from here to eternity.

Second the so called cowardice is from well meaning white folks who simply do not want to offend. They are told it's a black thing or you can't possibly understand and then are chastised for not bringing the subject up themselves.

He also mistakes race for African Americans. He isn't talking about asians or hispanics here. If he means African Americans he should say so more clearly.

Class and wealth distribution are much more serious factors in modern America than race. Holder sounds like he is stuck in 1972.
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Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. I think he was pretty clear about race,
he was speaking in context of February being Black History Month.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
93. why weren't ex-slaves paid reparations?
why can't the living victims of the Tulsa, OK riot of 1921 recover the property stolen from them?
why did it take 40 years for the murderers of Medgar Evers to convicted?

Holder is spot on. America is and has been cowardly about addressing its racist present and past.
He was referring to African-Americans and Black History month, but America has a long and sickening racist history starting with the slaughter of the native Indians.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
39. he's right
:shrug:
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
42. This was very much the wrong thing to say.
The correct idea, but the wrong way to say it.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
47. We should change "Black History Month" to "Diversity Month" and concentrate on relations.
It's ridiculous to limit the idea of Black History to one month. And it's ridiculous to assume there are enough months to break down the human race into relevant components.

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #47
89. Also true.
Ultimately, we all need to move forward. Ditto for green energy sources; the big blubbery Exxon dude won't end up destitute because of doing so either, but I digress.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
48. Quite a few people on this thread are proving him right
:shrug:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
51. I'd like to discuss the racist War on Drugs which AG Holder so strongly supports
<crickets>
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. That would be a great starting point
:thumbsup:
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
55. What an arrogant jerk.
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Felix Mala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
56. I don't have a problem if this is the fight that Obama wanted to fight at this point.
However, it seems more a symptom of an administration that's jumping in all directions at once with no one having a tight grip on things. I think this, the trouble with nominees, losing the high ground on stimulus and letting the right/wing republicans control the news cycle speaks of an unorganized White House. If Obama is good cop, someone needs to start playing bad cop right now and get a hold of things. I've waited all my life for a return to FDR style organization and instead we're getting an embarrassment-a-day re-hash of the Clinton years. I don't want to worry about my blood pressure every time I hear the latest news about this administration. After such a tight campaign, I just expected more. I think the AG should remember that large numbers of white Americans were brave enough to pull the lever for Obama. This is no way to pay them back.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
64. Seems silly to discuss Holder's speech without
the text of the speech. Here it is--well, as prepared, anyway:

Remarks as Prepared for Delivery by Attorney General Eric Holder at the Department of Justice African American History Month Program

Wednesday, February 18, 2009
Every year, in February, we attempt to recognize and to appreciate black history. It is a worthwhile endeavor for the contributions of African Americans to this great nation are numerous and significant. Even as we fight a war against terrorism, deal with the reality of electing an African American as our President for the first time and deal with the other significant issues of the day, the need to confront our racial past, and our racial present, and to understand the history of African people in this country, endures. One cannot truly understand America without understanding the historical experience of black people in this nation. Simply put, to get to the heart of this country one must examine its racial soul.

Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards. Though race related issues continue to occupy a significant portion of our political discussion, and though there remain many unresolved racial issues in this nation, we, average Americans, simply do not talk enough with each other about race. It is an issue we have never been at ease with and given our nation’s history this is in some ways understandable. And yet, if we are to make progress in this area we must feel comfortable enough with one another, and tolerant enough of each other, to have frank conversations about the racial matters that continue to divide us. But we must do more- and we in this room bear a special responsibility. Through its work and through its example this Department of Justice, as long as I am here, must - and will - lead the nation to the "new birth of freedom" so long ago promised by our greatest President. This is our duty and our solemn obligation.

We commemorated five years ago, the 50th anniversary of the landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision. And though the world in which we now live is fundamentally different than that which existed then, this nation has still not come to grips with its racial past nor has it been willing to contemplate, in a truly meaningful way, the diverse future it is fated to have. To our detriment, this is typical of the way in which this nation deals with issues of race. And so I would suggest that we use February of every year to not only commemorate black history but also to foster a period of dialogue among the races. This is admittedly an artificial device to generate discussion that should come more naturally, but our history is such that we must find ways to force ourselves to confront that which we have become expert at avoiding.

As a nation we have done a pretty good job in melding the races in the workplace. We work with one another, lunch together and, when the event is at the workplace during work hours or shortly thereafter, we socialize with one another fairly well, irrespective of race. And yet even this interaction operates within certain limitations. We know, by "American instinct" and by learned behavior, that certain subjects are off limits and that to explore them risks, at best embarrassment, and, at worst, the questioning of one’s character. And outside the workplace the situation is even more bleak in that there is almost no significant interaction between us. On Saturdays and Sundays America in the year 2009 does not, in some ways, differ significantly from the country that existed some fifty years ago. This is truly sad. Given all that we as a nation went through during the civil rights struggle it is hard for me to accept that the result of those efforts was to create an America that is more prosperous, more positively race conscious and yet is voluntarily socially segregated.

As a nation we should use Black History month as a means to deal with this continuing problem. By creating what will admittedly be, at first, artificial opportunities to engage one another we can hasten the day when the dream of individual, character based, acceptance can actually be realized. To respect one another we must have a basic understanding of one another. And so we should use events such as this to not only learn more about the facts of black history but also to learn more about each other. This will be, at first, a process that is both awkward and painful but the rewards are potentially great. The alternative is to allow to continue the polite, restrained mixing that now passes as meaningful interaction but that accomplishes little. Imagine if you will situations where people- regardless of their skin color- could confront racial issues freely and without fear. The potential of this country, that is becoming increasingly diverse, would be greatly enhanced. I fear however, that we are taking steps that, rather than advancing us as a nation are actually dividing us even further. We still speak too much of "them" and not "us". There can, for instance, be very legitimate debate about the question of affirmative action. This debate can, and should, be nuanced, principled and spirited. But the conversation that we now engage in as a nation on this and other racial subjects is too often simplistic and left to those on the extremes who are not hesitant to use these issues to advance nothing more than their own, narrow self interest. Our history has demonstrated that the vast majority of Americans are uncomfortable with, and would like to not have to deal with, racial matters and that is why those, black or white, elected or self-appointed, who promise relief in easy, quick solutions, no matter how divisive, are embraced. We are then free to retreat to our race protected cocoons where much is comfortable and where progress is not really made. If we allow this attitude to persist in the face of the most significant demographic changes that this nation has ever confronted- and remember, there will be no majority race in America in about fifty years- the coming diversity that could be such a powerful, positive force will, instead, become a reason for stagnation and polarization. We cannot allow this to happen and one way to prevent such an unwelcome outcome is to engage one another more routinely- and to do so now.

As I indicated before, the artificial device that is Black History month is a perfect vehicle for the beginnings of such a dialogue. And so I urge all of you to use the opportunity of this month to talk with your friends and co-workers on the other side of the divide about racial matters. In this way we can hasten the day when we truly become one America.

It is also clear that if we are to better understand one another the study of black history is essential because the history of black America and the history of this nation are inextricably tied to each other. It is for this reason that the study of black history is important to everyone- black or white. For example, the history of the United States in the nineteenth century revolves around a resolution of the question of how America was going to deal with its black inhabitants. The great debates of that era and the war that was ultimately fought are all centered around the issue of, initially, slavery and then the reconstruction of the vanquished region. A dominant domestic issue throughout the twentieth century was, again, America's treatment of its black citizens. The civil rights movement of the 1950's and 1960's changed America in truly fundamental ways. Americans of all colors were forced to examine basic beliefs and long held views. Even so, most people, who are not conversant with history, still do not really comprehend the way in which that movement transformed America. In racial terms the country that existed before the civil rights struggle is almost unrecognizable to us today. Separate public facilities, separate entrances, poll taxes, legal discrimination, forced labor, in essence an American apartheid, all were part of an America that the movement destroyed. To attend her state’s taxpayer supported college in 1963 my late sister in law had to be escorted to class by United States Marshals and past the state’s governor, George Wallace. That frightening reality seems almost unthinkable to us now. The civil rights movement made America, if not perfect, better.

In addition, the other major social movements of the latter half of the twentieth century- feminism, the nation's treatment of other minority groups, even the anti-war effort- were all tied in some way to the spirit that was set free by the quest for African American equality. Those other movements may have occurred in the absence of the civil rights struggle but the fight for black equality came first and helped to shape the way in which other groups of people came to think of themselves and to raise their desire for equal treatment. Further, many of the tactics that were used by these other groups were developed in the civil rights movement.

And today the link between the black experience and this country is still evident. While the problems that continue to afflict the black community may be more severe, they are an indication of where the rest of the nation may be if corrective measures are not taken. Our inner cities are still too conversant with crime but the level of fear generated by that crime, now found in once quiet, and now electronically padlocked suburbs is alarming and further demonstrates that our past, present and future are linked. It is not safe for this nation to assume that the unaddressed social problems in the poorest parts of our country can be isolated and will not ultimately affect the larger society.

Black history is extremely important because it is American history. Given this, it is in some ways sad that there is a need for a black history month. Though we are all enlarged by our study and knowledge of the roles played by blacks in American history, and though there is a crying need for all of us to know and acknowledge the contributions of black America, a black history month is a testament to the problem that has afflicted blacks throughout our stay in this country. Black history is given a separate, and clearly not equal, treatment by our society in general and by our educational institutions in particular. As a former American history major I am struck by the fact that such a major part of our national story has been divorced from the whole. In law, culture, science, athletics, industry and other fields, knowledge of the roles played by blacks is critical to an understanding of the American experiment. For too long we have been too willing to segregate the study of black history. There is clearly a need at present for a device that focuses the attention of the country on the study of the history of its black citizens. But we must endeavor to integrate black history into our culture and into our curriculums in ways in which it has never occurred before so that the study of black history, and a recognition of the contributions of black Americans, become commonplace. Until that time, Black History Month must remain an important, vital concept. But we have to recognize that until black history is included in the standard curriculum in our schools and becomes a regular part of all our lives, it will be viewed as a novelty, relatively unimportant and not as weighty as so called "real" American history.

I, like many in my generation, have been fortunate in my life and have had a great number of wonderful opportunities. Some may consider me to be a part of black history. But we do a great disservice to the concept of black history recognition if we fail to understand that any success that I have had, cannot be viewed in isolation. I stood, and stand, on the shoulders of many other black Americans. Admittedly, the identities of some of these people, through the passage of time, have become lost to us- the men, and women, who labored long in fields, who were later legally and systemically discriminated against, who were lynched by the hundreds in the century just past and those others who have been too long denied the fruits of our great American culture. The names of too many of these people, these heroes and heroines, are lost to us. But the names of others of these people should strike a resonant chord in the historical ear of all in our nation: Frederick Douglass, W.E.B. DuBois, Walter White, Langston Hughes, Marcus Garvey, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson, Charles Drew, Paul Robeson, Ralph Ellison, James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Vivian Malone, Rosa Parks, Marion Anderson, Emmit Till. These are just some of the people who should be generally recognized and are just some of the people to whom all of us, black and white, owe such a debt of gratitude. It is on their broad shoulders that I stand as I hope that others will some day stand on my more narrow ones.

Black history is a subject worthy of study by all our nation's people. Blacks have played a unique, productive role in the development of America. Perhaps the greatest strength of the United States is the diversity of its people and to truly understand this country one must have knowledge of its constituent parts. But an unstudied, not discussed and ultimately misunderstood diversity can become a divisive force. An appreciation of the unique black past, acquired through the study of black history, will help lead to understanding and true compassion in the present, where it is still so sorely needed, and to a future where all of our people are truly valued.

Thank you.

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/speeches/2009/ag-speech-090218.html?loc=interstitialskip

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How Goes It Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I accept those calling themselves cowards
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 03:44 PM by How Goes It
TO THOSE THAT AGREE WITH HOLDER, I won't fight you on this one.
As you say -- you believe Americans are cowards -- you're American - you're a coward.
Also --- I think most would agree that ignorance is a subset of cowardice.
Ergo - on this point -- you could also call yourselves ignorant.

FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE HOLDER WAS WRONG, because you know there to be many good Americans (not cowards) -- I put myself in your group.
I have and have had great friends of all races.
I have worked along side those of whatever raced showed up.
I have spent a lot of my non-working hours with those of all races.
I could care less what your skin looks like.

Holder --- you're right.
There certainly are a number of self-acknowledged cowards in this forum.
That is the make-up of Democratic Underground.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. So, are you saying that voluntary social segregation does not exist, or are you saying
it does exist, but people are not afraid to talk about it?

And by "people," of course, I mean most people in America.

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How Goes It Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I wasn't saying either.
I spoke of cowardice.

I agreed with those who believe they're cowards.
I disagreed that America as a whole is a nation of cowards, being as I know many who are not.

But as to the cowardice thing --- where do you fit?
Do you believe you're a coward --- or not?
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. I think that pos "toon" was a perfect example of the cowardice Holder was referring to.
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 05:01 PM by nc4bo
The Mccain campaign also provided many examples of that type of cowardice.

Sarah Palin's "America" was yet another example of cowardice.

Millions of people thoroughly enjoyed listening and agreed with their cowardly slickity-slick, down low rheotric too but not enough to beat the black guy HA-HA.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. Yes, but you spoke of cowardice in (I assume) the context of Holder's speech. He
did not say in the abstract that Americans are cowards. He was saying it in the context of avoiding discussions about voluntary social segregation.

So, if you are disagreeing with what he said, I'd like to know the specific basis of yourr disagreement.
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How Goes It Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. 1st line - 2nd paragraph
Holder's words ----- Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards.

Geez --- sounds like he's calling the nation a bunch of cowards to me.
Go figure.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. As my prior post stated, he did not call Americans cowards in general, but only when it
comes to discussing race and, more specifically, voluntary social segregation. Context.
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How Goes It Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. ONLY?!!
Really? Oh, I feel a whole lot better knowing that.

Trust me - I knew exactly what he was saying.

His calling ALL Americans cowards --- stinks !!!
He doesn't know me.
He doesn't know who I associate with.

His statement was ignorant.

Then again -- he's only the AG.
Why should I expect more.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Oh, I trust you. I could tell from post 67 that you knew what he was talking about. Which makes
me wonder why you did not give a more direct response to post 68.

It's nice that you say what you do, but what you do may or may not reflect what most Americans do. His comment was not personal to you.
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Felix Mala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. Sadly, whole speeches don't make it to most papers and never appear on TV.
Today, reality is the four-second sound bite. I didn't make up these rules. It's a very nice speech, but most people don't like to be called cowards by their civil servants.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. MOst likely no one likes to be called a coward by anyone. IMO, as I posted
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 05:24 PM by No Elephants
upthread, it was an unfortunate choice of words. However, IMO, it's a shame that the discussion has been only about what the media chose to cherry pick, rather than about whether voluntary social segregation actually exists and, if so, why. That might lead to an intelligent discussion, perhaps even a productive one.

Discussing whether or not he should have used the word coward is not likely to lead to great discussion, again, IMO.

Edited to add: When I said what was and was not likely to lead to intelligent discussion, I meant IRL.
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How Goes It Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. "most people don't like to be called cowards by their civil servants"
As you said -- most people don't like to be called cowards by their civil servants

That's why I posed a question.
Rather than accusing others as some would prefer, I ask you -- how do you feel about yourself?
Are you a coward as Holder says?
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blueclown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
77. Can we call him a coward for being too spineless to prosecute Bush?
Or is that racist?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. What would prosecuting or not prosecuting Bush have to do with race?
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Native Donating Member (885 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
84. I agree. The only people I hear speaking out about race with any honesty are the bigots . . .
they never seem to hold back, do they?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
88. He's right. Or at least, until now, nobody wanted to address the issue head-on.
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 11:00 PM by Deja Q
(in modern day context)

I think Attorney General Holder is going to do his part to help change the mindset. :thumbsup:
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
90. I think he was wrong to call african americans cowards.
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