Man Who Froze To Death Didn't Pay Bills

[sabra]

Source: CBS New/AP

Records Show 93-Year-Old In Michigan Was Confused On How To Pay For Utilities

(AP) Public records obtained by a newspaper show a 93-year-old man found frozen to death in his Bay City home had received several utility shut-off notices before the last one.

The Bay City Times reports Wednesday that city records it obtained under the Freedom of Information Act say five other letters were sent to Marvin Schur's home in the past two years. His body was found Jan. 17, several days after Bay City Electric Light & Power restricted electricity and a month after his final shut-off notice.

Records suggest he was confused about how to pay. He tried at least twice to pay bills at his bank, which couldn't accept them.

Mayor Charles Brunner says it appears Schur's problems were warnings of his vulnerability and should have been "a red flag" to officials.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/19/national/main4812510.shtml?tag=topHome;topStories

[Lost in CT]

1. The fact that a municipality killed this man appalls me.

All the cry about publicly owned utilities and they turn out just as bad and twice as callous.

[Warpy]

We are an uncaring country

and there is no public agency charged with checking on people who are old and alone.

The poor old guy just started losing his marbles for one reason or another, and was simply ignored to death.

If his bank told him where he could pay his bills, he likely forgot before he got there.

[jwirr]

10. At the most we have in some communities asked the postal delivery

people to be alert to changes they see. This incident is terrible and a law like the one we have in MN would go a long way to prevent it again. No one can be evicted or have their heat source turned off in MN in the winter months. If they had troubles collecting from a person the very least our utility companies would do was contact Human Services. In our smaller towns it is not unusual for the bank to see that bills are paid when they recognize that there is a problem.

My mother still lived in the town where she grew up when her Alzheimer's started and the bank recognized it before we did. They had been quietly paying her bills our of her direct deposit for 3 months before we caught on.

[One_Life_To_Give]

72. Illegal in several states

Actually I didn't know it was legal to turn off the power anywhere during the winter months.

[PassingFair]

3. His children must feel at least partially responsible.

Either they weren't paying attention,
or PRIDE killed this guy.

I agree that he shouldn't have had his
heat shut off, though.

It appears that he had a private utility.

[Lost in CT]

5. He had a city owned monopoly. He never had children.

Kinda scary really. I have recently begun to help with my dad who has early dementia.

People without kids are really fucked in this country when they become older.

[drmeow]

11. Having kids is no guarentee

that you are not f**ked in this country when you get older. Parents can and do outlive their kids.

[Lost in CT]

13. No but it gives you odds to work with.

Every time I read someone saying I have chosen not to have kids for (fill in blank here)... if they have thought about their old age...

[drmeow]

21. Children are not

an entitlement or retirement program or an insurance policy.

For a long life, friends trump family

By HELEN BRANSWELL

Thursday, June 16, 2005 Page A19

Canadian Press

As the old saying goes, you can choose your friends but you can't choose your family. A new study suggests that if you want to live a long life, you should focus on the friends.

Australian researchers have found that a strong network of friends seems to help seniors live longer -- more so, even, than having relatives, children or a close confidant.

...

"Some children are of great benefit and some children are really somewhat detrimental to your health," said Dr. Dombrower, of the Baycrest Centre for Geriatric Care.

"In my practice, I see a lot of children who are very good. And I see a lot of children who are more interested in making sure their inheritance is protected. With your friends, though, you choose your friends."

...

The biggest difference -- 20 per cent -- was seen between those with friends and those who had few friends. There seemed to be a small benefit to having a confidant, but when it came to relatives and children, there were no significant survival differences between the haves and the have-nots.

[Lost in CT]

36. No but if you want someone to check up on you they are helpful.

More friends make you live longer does not surprise me.

But the fact remains that having adult children is often helpful when dementia sets in.

It is not black or white by any means but thinking otherwise seems like a panacea for those that choose to be childless and are facing a bleak future in old age.

[GinaMaria]

44. People without children plan ahead for their future

and don't bank on others to give free care when they are older. If they need assistance or care, they hire someone to do it or find the appropriate social services or find a living facility that provides that service.

[harpboy_ak]

73. Denial is not a river in Egypt

Sorry, but you obviously do not understand dementia, nor the fact that those used to being independent and taking care of themselves often don't think that they will ever need anyone's help. Many of them are too stubborn to accept help, especially those raised during the Depression. And one of the effects of dementia is that you can't comprehend that your cognitive abilities are impaired; demented people rarely have insight into their problem.

That means that unless someone intervenes, those without family or some other social support group such as a church will often go undiagnosed and without help until they become involved in some life threatening event.

I actively intervened with one woman who kept coming to the rental office down the hall from my office to pay rent every day, and who was always inappropriately dressed, wearing heavy winter clothes on 70 degree summer days. When I tried to converse with her, she made no sense. The property manager told me that she sometimes tried to pay rent twice a day, and I called her church, where the lay pastor told me that she hadn't been coming to church for a while, but promised to call a niece who lived across the country. Within 2 weeks she was in an assisted living home, where she would be safe and well fed (she was dangerously undernourished because she could no remember how to cook).

She had been an avid gardener. Even after she lost the ability to speak, she could name flowers when I visited her.

[marshall]

75. This man had family, but there seems to have been some kind of falling out

"Family" is quoted as saying he left his 500,000 to 600,000 dollar estate to Bay Medical Center.

[GinaMaria]

77. I understand it well enough to make plans. I have no idea what

is in store for me. If something happened, I plan to be in a situation where someone else can make a phone call if needed.

I think it's great how you helped the woman in the rental office, but I don't think that kind of thing can be mandated just because you and someone else share similar DNA, genes whatever.

She is fortunate you were there, but why should anyone have to hope for good fortune. Shouldn't there be things in place in our communities?

[drmeow]

65. I don't face a bleak future in my old age.

Two of my aunts and an uncle never had kids. Except for the one with downs syndrome (like SHE was going to take care of her aging parents), they all lived well into their 90's. They took care of each other and retired together to a mixed care facility and all of the died without even moving out of the independent care part of that facility. Their nieces and nephews were very active in their lives and provided support in their old age. Their brother, who did have kids, was swindled out of his money by his son and his two sisters and 1 brother who did not have kids helped support him in his old age.

"Relying on Health and Retirement Study data, Soldo and Hill (1995) find that about 11% of married couples provide financial assistance to a parent, and about 9% spend substantial time in parent care. Among unmarried women, 10.4% provided financial assistance and 11.3% provided care. Using the same data, McGarry and Schoeni (1995) report that of respondents with at least one non-co-resident parent, 85% gave neither time nor money, 6% gave money alone, 8% gave just time, and only 1% gave both."

85% of adult children DO NOT PROVIDE CARE to their aging parents.

"Early research by Adams (1968) found that most older adults receive help first from their children, but their siblings step in when the responsibilities become too great. Siblings can provide instrumental assistance, ranging from caring for each other when they are ill to helping with repairs on each others’ homes. The older the individual is, the more likely they will be to see their sibling as a primary source of help (Cicirelli, 1991a; Hoyt & Babchuk, 1983). This is presumably because parents have died and children are often raising families of their own. Older adults who have never married or who have no children rely more on siblings for support than those who have been married or have children (Connidis, 1989; Johnson & Catalano, 1981; Moyer, 1992; Suggs, 1985; Troll, 1982; White & Riedmann, 1992)."

Studies also show that inheritance plays a role ... if you're gonna leave them money, your kids are more likely to take care of you!

"22 (36.7%) of the sample described some type of abuse. Nine women reported acting-out abuse only, 10 reported both types, and only three reported psychological only."

So, let me see if I have the data right. 15% of children provide aid to their parents but 37% of children perpetrate abuse against their parents. I don't like those odds.

[GinaMaria]

39. Do not have children to take care of you in your old age

That's what my parents did and I've walked away. That is a selfish use of the child. It is unfair to expect that of your offspring.

[WriteDown]

41. Nonsense...

In my tribe, the family was everything. The children naturally took care of the parents and grandparents.

[GinaMaria]

46. that's usually how these things work

you learn from a very young age that there is an expectation that you will look after aging relatives. My point is that it should be a choice, not an expectation.

[Lost in CT]

43. Nonsence... it is the duty of the child to help their parents in old age.

I myself have accepted that duty. It is not easy mind you and it doesn't mean you necessarily bring them into your house or visit them daily.

But to me it is a sign of good parenting if the children reciprocate.

[GinaMaria]

45. Your children's job is to look toward the future

they have their own lives, children and jobs to look after. It's a pay it forward system, not backward. Older adults can be a burden on adult children whose time is already plenty divided and scarce. It is an unfair expectation. If the child wants to do it, that's fine, but it should never be expected. Children are not servants.

[WriteDown]

47. That is just ridiculous....

Part of the duty of a child is to care for the parents that have cared for them. Worked in my tribe for thousands of years, but we had little need for things like plasma TV's and bluray players which everyone seems to "need" these days. Ever hear the saying "It takes a village." It is absolutely true.

[GinaMaria]

48. The complete expression is "It takes a villiage to raise a child"

The expression is a future focus, on how much we all need to invest in the success of the future. That is our legacy. You are free to have your opinions and raise your children with your expectations that they are to wipe your ass in your old age or what ever you think they owe you. When they become adults, it is their decision. They can walk away from you and reject your expectations.

No one owes you anything. Certainly not geriatric care. Not even your children. They are given life to make the most of that life. You do what you can to raise an independent self-sufficient adult and then let go. The rest is up to them. Parents do this freely without strings attached without a price to be paid in the future.

[WriteDown]

52. Okay...

lets end all programs focused on the elderly now and redirect that money toward spending on the children. Let them rot because the children are the future. Its selfish thinking like that which fuels the repukes.

And its true that no one owes their parents anything. Its just a matter of common decency which seems to be lacking in the US today.

[GinaMaria]

55. My position is not to let anyone rot

My position is the difference between choice and expectation. Drilling that expectation into young children is selfish. Raise your children with care and compassion and encourage that behavior in them and hope that they carry that forward in their lives.

Common decency is different to everybody. Respecting a child as an individual who will develop preferences and strong abilities in certain areas is common decency to me. Forcing children into roles that do not fit with who they are is not, imo. Forcing expectations like elder care or becoming an accountant or becoming what you want the child to be is not decent although it may be common.

[WriteDown]

59. In that case...

We should let people decide if their taxes go to caring for the elderly. Afterall, if we can't expect people to care for their own parents, how on Earth can we require them to care for others? I have rarely met parents who drill into their child that they have to take care of them later in life. Usually its just a natural impulse for a child.

[GinaMaria]

61. I've seen it often with a side order of guilt

It is very common in women my age. Why end social or community services? That's the point of having them. So people don't have to use others for free care. If all you have is to depend on someone who can fit you in between work, errands, things with the kids etc., how helpful is that?

The more available these services are the better off our elderly are and our families are. Wouldn't you like your kids to visit with you when you older instead of spending time, figuring out if you've eaten, taken a bath, got clean clothes? They would be able to better enjoy time with you. There are people who can be paid to do these things. Let's create a few jobs and decrease stress on family.

Better yet, make plans for how you will get these services before you need them.

[Psephos]

74. By definition...

..."common decency" is that subset of decency that is universal, not different to everybody, as you put it. That's what the word "common" means.

If you're seriously arguing that children have no obligation to their parents in their dotage, but somehow the state does, then you've provided an example of exactly what's wrong with the direction Western society is heading. We destroy the tribal and familial relationships that have sustained humankind since prehistory, and replace them with anonymous bureaucratic "caregivers" who are paid to do what we will not do ourselves...with other people's money. This comes from the narcissistic perception that nothing is more important than our own lives.

At some point our "forward-looking" children will be elderly parents themselves. There is nothing more forward-looking than ensuring that all people enjoy the mutual care and responsibility that arise in extended families from infancy through old age. It is the most fundamental right of them all, and it is written in our genes.

[GinaMaria]

76. How many times have you heard 'common decency'? tossed around

I've heard it from people who are waiting at the bus stop who think everyone should step aside and let them go first because they were at the stop first (Chicago CTA stops near the stops but not always at the actual sign. it's messy but gets the job done). It's used when people think they are owed something. They just couch it in 'common decency'. What one person considers common decency, another might not. I consider it common decency to let someone with crutches or obvious ailment or injury to ahead of me on the bus. Others do not. I understand the literal definition of the word 'common'. It is the expression 'common decency' and how it is used that is not commonly understood by all.

I have no obligation to my parents. They have paid their taxes, are eligible for medicare and probably have other benefits I am not aware of. The truth is my mother is no more important than anyone else's mother. We need a culture that cares more about everyone. As someone who makes a living at organizational culture change, that is not an easy task even when people are incented with $. Dialing down some of the competitiveness and realizing we all matter is a step in the right direction. As a collective community we care for our children, our ill, our elderly, but it is not an obligation or a debt we owe because we are born.

I think there are a lot of people who willingly care for their parents. That's great. It may be because of the relationship or whatever. I feel that way about some of my siblings. I've never heard of this gene you talk about. I apparently don't have it and I don't want it. Adult relationships are about choice. I didn't have a choice as a kid, but I do now. As adults we negotiate the terms of our personal relationships.

[InkAddict]

63. It is mandated byOhio Civil Code but rarely enforced.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba521/

Currently, 30 states have filial responsibility statutes that establish a duty for adult children to care for their indigent elderly parents. When enforced, the statutes can require the adult child to reimburse state programs or institutions that have cared for the indigent parent with either a one-time contribution or installment payments.

[Lost in CT]

64. Wow I had no idea. nt

[GinaMaria]

67. That sucks :-(

Hardly seems fair to those who don't really have a relationship with these family members. Bad enough to be stuck with people through an accident of birth but to be financially stuck with them once you get away seems unjust. Children don't choose their parents.

[SnowCritter]

20. Did he have any children?

Maybe he didn't - it's not uncommon. And any children he may have had could be in their 60s or 70s by now (he was 93 at the time of his death, after all). So it could be that they're all retired or on a fixed income.

[PassingFair]

22. Guess not, an article I read spoke of a nephew...but I don't

know if he lived nearby.


Guy left ALL his money to a HOSPITAL!

[roguevalley]

50. pride? probably not. he was confused. He didn't know what to do

and no one stepped up. And he died. end of story.

[LisaL]

71. He didn't have any children.

[roguevalley]

49. my grandpa was 93 and the same, sweet, decent and vulnerable.

may the people who did this regret it forever.

[BanzaiBonnie]

2. The system failed this man

Someone should have personally contacted this man to check on his welfare. Was there any family?

If he was confused and trying to pay the bill at his bank, they could have called senior services to report a possible problem.


There were a number of places where someone could have stepped in to help. Let's all remember to watch out for others.

[dkf]

4. This says more about our society's lack of support for our elderly.

At that age he was bound to have some sort of dementia.

90 something year olds shouldn't be living alone or should be visited frequently with oversight on finances.

[KittyWampus]

30. that's what I think. If he hadn't been frozen due to no heat, he would've eventually

burned his house down or gone out wandering into the night or some other sad thing.

[HereSince1628]

6. I am simply amazed that any utility that provides life-essential service

could be cut off during a Michigan winter.

Clearly many things went wrong. But I suspect that the city had access to credit bureaus and DOT information that would have given the man's age. The combination of age, which sometimes takes a toll on cognitive function and failure to pay bills after multiple notices should have put social services on the case.

In America we are free, but we are also more alone than the citizens of any nation on earth.

[qanda]

7. I'm not sure why the bank didn't take action to help this man

They should have seen that the man was trying to pay and helped him get the money to the right place.

[Hulk]

16. Banks couldn't care less......

It's all about profit in a bank. How can they strip you of any change you have in your purse or deep in your pocket. What new ways can they conjure up to take more from the customer.

As for assisting a confused client with his utility bills.....not a profit, not our problem.

I know this is over simplifying the tragic story, but I am so appalled at banks and their practices, and this poor man's death is simply a profound example of how our society and more specifically banks couldn't care less. They are there to make a profit by hook or crook...and anything else is simply not in their interest.

[predfan]

8. Maybe they coulda , oh, I don't know, sent somebody over to his house?

[HereSince1628]

12. Yes, except that

would have meant someone would have needed to leave their comfy cubicle and go across town IN THE COLD!!!!!!!!

There is a lesson here about the dangers of the intersection between the cold uncaring free-market and an unthinking bureaucracy. It needs to be re-learned every 75-100 years.

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

9. Why can't electric companies have some sort of elderly assistance program

edit = typo

[Lost in CT]

15. Many do but this was a government utility not a private one. nt

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

17. I don't like it, but this clarifies it a bit. Thx

[No Elephants]

25. The government killed him. The government and the bank.

[readmoreoften]

62. And why can't a government utility have an elderly assistance program?

The only difference between a privatized utility and a government utility is that corporate utilities make a profit for shareholders while the government utility exists to take care of citizens.

[antimatter98]

14. The computer billing system killed that man. Simple laws/regulations would have saved him.

The computer could have been programmed to get social services or the
sheriff involved when that many 'no pay' alerts were logged by the billing
software. They knew his age from his SSN and billing information.

Like a 911 hang up call, this incident should have called out the sheriff or
social services.

The power company---like probably 100% of them in the US---is liable for the
man's death and should be prosecuted and required by the State Attorney General
to implement a lifeline program that AUTOMATICALLY dispatches help, and doesn't
rely on a possibly mentally unable person to make a call to the power (or gas)
company.

This shows how we treat our elderly---and we will be elderly too someday, so
beware, if you think this man's plight was 'his fault.' Laugh on.

[Lost in CT]

18. This isn't a power company it is a government owned utility.

If it was a private owned utility he could have paid at his bank or on the phone.

Plus privately owned utilities often have outreach programs especially for the elderly.

This was a city owned utility different animal I am afraid.

[DemWynner]

32. That is not true

I worked for a water facility that was privately run and you could not pay at the back, or you can not pay our private owned electric bill at one either. I knew a kid that had their electricity turned off at his house because he would always have to hurry home to do his homework before it got dark. The owner of our water utility was an ass and did not care about any charity.
The teller at the bank should have taken the money for the man and sent it in to the utility. and s/he should have alerted someone about it if it happened twice.

[Lost in CT]

35. This isn't about charity. (He had plenty of money)

This is about connivance.

And municipal utilities are notoriously more backward than large public ones when it comes down to methods of payment.

[Veruca Salt]

28. +1

:thumbsup: That is exactly what should be done.

[elocs]

19. Maybe MI should compassionately copy WI where people's power cannot be shut off in winter.

This should never, never happen and it is specifically against the law in WI. Here there are no red flags needed or warnings of vulnerability that may be missed. You simply cannot shut off people's power in the winter.

[PassingFair]

23. Apparently, here in Michigan....

private companies cannot shut off the heat,
but public utilities can.

:crazy:

[Psephos]

69. Stunning, isn't it? n/t

[No Elephants]

24. He probably could pay his utility bills at the bank when he was a kid. Damn bank couldn't help him?

[Veruca Salt]

29. Can't really blame it on the bank as an entity... it's the uncaring PEOPLE who work there that did

nothing. The man was 93 for christsakes! Someone at the bank he went to could have given him a lift or called the power company to make sure someone could give the man a hand or even taken the payment from him and brought it to the power company themselves.

Things like this make me weep for humanity's future.

[No Elephants]

34. Easier than that. They could have even just called the utility company and gotten some

guidance on how to proceed, or helped him with a money order to the utility company. I have a very dim recollection of going with my father paying the electric bill at the bank when I was very, very little, under 5. And the phone bill by walking to the phone company. I don't think my parents even had a checking account then.

[Vinca]

26. It doesn't really matter why someone doesn't pay a bill.

The point is, utilities that are necessary to sustain life in freezing weather should not be allowed to be turned off. There are worse things than a utility company losing a few bucks.

[Veruca Salt]

27. That is too sad!

:cry: And it kills me because it always makes me think that could be my grandmum if we weren't there to look out for her.

[Wizard777]

31. In Maryland we have laws that prevent utilities from being shut off in winter months.

This prevents our utility companies from killing the poor and elderly over billing disputes. Let me guess the utility company is now trying to collect from his estate? I say we do like China and execute the bastards.

[crazylikafox]

42. I live in Maryland & I get a turnoff notice if my bill is 2 weeks late.

Summer or winter. Either they're not enforcing that law or they're calling my bluff. But in Dec. I got a FINAL turnoff notice phone call, and my bill wasn't even a month late. I inadvertently had misplaced the bill & thought I had paid it. I don't know how people are surviving here. The electric rates doubled this past year. My bill was over $350 in Jan. & I felt lucky. My neighbor's was over $550, same size house. And I don't live in a McMansion.

[Wizard777]

57. It's also illegal for them to ask you pay someone Else's account. But they still do it.

When you go to have a new account established at your new apartment. They'll say, we have a delinquent account at that service address and we start a new account until the that is paid. This is followed by silence. That leaves to fill in the blank with the unspoken obvious. If you want a new account you have to pay the old one off. If you ask to speak to a supervisor they'll deny it and open that new account they just told you they could do.


So I think that's another bluff. But you can call your Maryland Congress Critter to find out for sure if that is still valid. I hope they didn't do away with that when they repealed the utility regulation. The winters here have gotten milder. But we still it have it for a few weeks.

[SpartanDem]

33. They didn't turn off power

it was on a limiter that needed to be reset, but it needs to reset when it trips. He never did this which given his mental condition is understandable. This was a failure for everyone involved someone from the company, his neighbor, extended family(he had no children of his own)should've noticed his condition and contacted social services.

[roody]

37. Something like this would never happen in Cuba.

Those damn commies take care of each other.

[MyUserNameIsBroken]

38. Well..

That and it's a lot warmer there. ;)

[roody]

53. There are plenty of things to die from in Cuba.

People are taught to care for each other. They are indoctrinated with communitarian values.

[WriteDown]

40. You're right...

freezing temperatures in Cuba would be a tad unusual. :eyes:

I'd be curious to see any figure on the # of homes air conditioned in Cuba. I'm guessing its below double digits.

[roody]

51. The economic embargo has put a chill on AC.

Elder care is a priority in Cuba. People are not left to fend on their own.

[WriteDown]

54. I'm fairly certain....

that the US is not the only manufacturer of AC units.

[roody]

58. Study up on the embargo and you will get it.

[WriteDown]

60. I have, apparently you haven't....

If a country can afford universal healthcare, they should be able to afford AC units which are eminently cheaper.

[daggahead]

56. This really is a "Your money or your life" situation.

Did the city ever knock on his door to check on him? How friggin hard would that have been?

Let the mayor know how you feel:

Mayor Charles Brunner
City Hall
301 Washington Ave.
Bay City, MI 48708
phone [phone] or [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]
web site www.baycity.mi.org

[Heftheplayboy]

66. He didn't die in vain

I wish I could get rid of my bills in some way. Dying is not exactly what I have in mind though :-)

[dysfunctional press]

68. with $600,000 in the bank- he didn't pay his bills.

http://www.mlive.com/news/bctimes/index.ssf?/base/news-13/123385051318300.xml&coll=4

Schur's nephew, 66-year-old William Walworth of Ormond Beach, Fla., said Marvin Schur ''told me two years ago he had over $600,000 in the bank.''

The world learned Wednesday that Schur, 93, left his entire estate - reportedly worth about $600,000 - to Bay Regional Medical Center, according to relatives who said lawyers informed them of Schur's gift.

[LisaL]

70. Because he was elderly and confused on how to pay them.

Jeez.