Newly Poor Swell Lines at Foodbanks

[Stuart G]

Source: New York Times

MORRISTOWN, N.J. — Cindy Dreeszen and her husband live in one of the wealthiest counties in the United States. They have steady jobs, his at a movie theater and hers at a government office. Together, they earn about $55,000 a year.


But with a 17-month-old son, another baby on the way, and, as Ms. Dreeszen put it, “the cost of everything going up and up,” the couple went to a food pantry last week to ask for some free groceries.

Once a crutch for the most needy, food pantries have responded to the deepening recession by opening their doors to what one pantry organizer described as “the next layer of people,” a rapidly expanding group of child-care workers, nurse’s aides, real estate agents and secretaries who are facing a financial crisis for the first time. Over all, demand at food banks across the country increased by 30 percent in 2008 from the previous year, according to a survey by Feeding America, which distributes more than two billion pounds of food every year. And while pantries usually see a drop in demand after the holiday season, many in upscale suburbs this year are experiencing the opposite.

Here in Morris County (median household income, $82,173), the Interfaith Food Pantry added extra hours this month after seeing a 24 percent increase in customers and 45 percent increase in food distributed in November, December and January compared with the same period last year.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/20/nyregion/20food.html?hp

---

And it will get worse, before it gets better. This scares me. Not enough food. Simple easy for all of us to understand.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Here's the link to the story.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/19/america/pantry.php

[ananda]

2. For the record, these people are NOT poor!

They are obviously living in a place
that is far beyond their income to afford,
AND they CAN afford a just good enough
and fine place that will leave them
enough money for essentials.. which
means that food pantries and other
organizations can help the people who
REALLY need it.

[DemWynner]

3. The thing is right now

They can not sell their house or get a mortgage to buy a house in a poorer section. where I live, $55k is not rich, but it would not send the family to the food pantry. There are a lot of places where this amount of money is very poor for a family of 4. The bad thing is that jobs are leaving so fast that no one can sell their home for as much as they owe on it.

[No Elephants]

6. I hear you, but both members of this couple are employed. Their jobs did not go anywhere. So,

maybe they always needed to be in a less expensive home.

[Missy Vixen]

9. What "less expensive home" is that?

Please see my response below. Looked at housing prices lately, especially anywhere near a population center on both coasts?

[No Elephants]

12. I don't know what you are talking about, but I am talking about the one particular

couple in this story. He works in a theater; she works for the government. together they earn $55,000. Yet, the story says they live in one of the most expensive counties in the country. Maybe, if your top combined earning capacity is 55K a year, you should accept that you may not be able to afford living in one of the most expensive counties in the United States. And, the point is, nothing about the current economy has forced them into a food pantry. This is the normal life. And they may be taking food that might otherwise go to someone with no income at all. That is my major concern.

Beyond that, I don't think either of us knows enough about this couple or Morris County to say with specificity what steps this couple should take, but, in my book, they need to incread their income or lower their lifestyle or both.

[Missy Vixen]

14. We live in one of the most expensive counties in Washington State

We live thirty miles from Seattle. Bellevue, twenty miles from us, has more millionaires per capita (still) than any place in the country. Bellevue (and Redmond, ten miles east,) are the center of software in this state. If you work in that industry, you live within a 20 mile radius, or you are buying yourself over an hour each way daily commute. On top of a 10-12 hour workday, that's a pretty hefty time commitment, especially if you have a family.

How much does the increased commute for the supposedly "affordable" living space really cost?

My point: We have no idea why this couple moved into the county they did. Perhaps his employer demanded he live close to the workplace because of his duties for them. Here's another point: It's going to get worse for them; they're having another child. There are millions in this country who live on the edge -- they work service jobs. They're faced with either living a prohibitive distance from employment, or buying something that will keep them "house poor" but closer to day care, employer, etcetera.

There are millions of working poor in this country, and they need to eat, too.

[No Elephants]

15. I saw no indication in the story that they "moved into" this county. For all we know, they were

born there. Beyond that, I'll stick with what I said in my prior post.

[izquierdista]

23. These two don't sound like the "service economy" poor

If they make 55K a year, that is quite a bit more than 2 minimum wage jobs. There are considerably better off that the people trying to get by on minimum wage jobs, many of which are in "rich" counties, because rich people can't be bothered to cut their own lawns, wash their own clothes, clean their own houses, and babysit their own kids.

When they take food away from people living on minimum wage, the people on minimum wage end up taking it from people with NO wage. And what do they do with the money they save? They pay more in rent or house payment which keeps the property values of the rich in the county from falling as much as they would otherwise. More people scrounging for scraps at the bottom keeps it uncrowded at the top.

[KittyWampus]

28. I live in the most expensive real estate market in the USA. There are multiple families who've been

here for GENERATIONS. Fishermen and farmers.

And the fishermen all went to work with their fathers and quit school. Fast forward to the 80's and the haul seiners were shit out of luck, unemployed and many not very literate.

Just because a certain section might have hugely expensive real estate doesn't mean everyone living there is wealthy.

My family is working class. My grandparents sold everything they owned to buy this place and my entire family has been working our asses off to keep it going for 3 generations.

There are other families here who are less capable of keeping. We know families with holes in their roofs and others who shoot game off season.

Just because someone lives in an expensive area doesn't mean they are wealthy.

But the sick thing I've found on DU is the attitude of "so what, just move". Fuck keeping communities and families alive. UGH!

[No Elephants]

31. With all due respect, the NYT article under discussion on this thread was

not about you or about your famility or about or about fishermen or farmers. It was about a healthy, young couple, both employed, that the article described, for no apparent reason, as "newly poor" because of this economy. In fact, nothing in their lives seems to have been affected by this economy.

No one said the couple in question was wealthy, either. Together, they make $55K a year, or SO THEY TOLD THE REPORTER. No one is implying that $55k a year is wealthy. (I forgot if the article specified gross or net. If they take home $55K a year, that is not shabby though. And that is taking their word for it.)

Finally, there is a middle ground between "fuck keeping communities and families alive" and expecting food pantries to subsidize the income from two jobs on a regular basis when you are young, healthy and employed. As several posts on this thread have noted, the food in food pantries is not unlimited. They are taking from people with no income (and no home, in some cases), disabled and elderly on fixed incomes and minimum wage earners, who might find the shelves in the pantry empty that day. I don't know how anyone justifies that to themselves or anyone else without a mega sense of entitlement.

BTW, there is a difference between high cost of living and high real estate values.. In some places, the cost of real estate is low, while utilities, food, etc. are very high and vice versa.

[AnneD]

52. It's all about affordable housing.....

At one point-I was a Nurse in Ruidosa. Lots of folks with trophy homes that they visited once a year. I lived all year round there and even though I had a good job-I was paid the very low local wages-but the all the real estate was outrageous.

After breaking my back to get ahead as a single mom-I left and moved to a different area with a more favorable cost of living. Now that daughter is in college I am working to get a home for a retirement and working toward my retirement fund.

I would have loved to stay and live in the community as I thought I was an asset-but I needed a livable income and an affordable home-and they can't keep Nurses in rural areas and wonder why.

[Missy Vixen]

8. WHERE?

Oh, I can't wait for your response.

We live in the Pacific Northwest. We love it here, but the price of everything has gone through the roof within the past year.

Where would that "just good enough and fine place" be? If they move further out, there MIGHT be some rapid transit. If there's not, how do they get to work? If they're driving, what impact did gas prices have on them? Does the couple they profiled have medical insurance? There's still a deductible. Plus, if they're both working, there's day care, and the cost of day care is considerable. In our area, any "affordable" housing is over an hour's commute each way away from the vast majority of employers. There are people in California who have two-hour each way commutes.

If they drive, they're evil. If they live anywhere close to their office to cut the commute, they're broke. What are these people to do?

Does it occur to you that there are some people who are probably STILL paying the bills from last summer's $4.50 a gallon for gas? How about the fact that food prices have gone through the roof as well? What about prescriptions, any doctor or dentist visits, etcetera?

I hate to break it to people here, but people that show up at a food bank are hungry, no matter where they live.

[Sequoia]

10. I know someone who makes that much money

and he's always grubbing quarters and cups of coffee off co-workers. I tell him no.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. Yeah, because moving (especially if it includes selling a house) is SO easy.

Not to mention getting another job.

Give me a fucking break.

[undeterred]

38. You don't get it.

Lots of people are underemployed right now, or one person in the household is unemployed. Expenses have gone up and wages have not. I am working at half the salary my skills are worth, taking in half what I have been paid in the past. Its not that easy to downscale your expenses by half. I go to a food pantry to make up for the huge loss in income.

Nobody likes going to a food pantry- you stand in line for a long time and you don't get a choice of what to eat. You do it because you have to.

[Gormy Cuss]

40. You're right. They're not poor. What they are is struggling, and maybe broke.

They also needed to fill out an application with a declaration of all income, show proof of that income, and sign an assertion to the truth of that info. Since they told a NY Times reporter that their income was $55,000 that together with the other info on their application form must have been enough to qualify them for assistance. It doesn't matter that $55,000 is a great income for a family of 3.5 in other areas. In their area that wasn't too high for some help.

I'd guess that they weren't accorded the same level of food assistance as families with much lower income. In the pantries where I know a bit about services, the higher income yet eligible people may be offered one trip a month where the lower income people will be offered food as frequently as once per week.

[No Elephants]

47. An application for a food pantry? That is not typical in the northeast, where I live. Here, food

pantries give food to anyone who walks in and asks for it.

Food stamsps here are a very different story. For that, you do have to fill out an application, but the article said nothing about food stamps, one way or the other.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. Typical in any pantry that receives Federal assistance, including the one I know best in Maine.

The Interfaith Pantry mentioned in the article is in the Northeast and requires an application -- it's on their web site. In many pantries the registration is pretty simple, just name and address, proof of income (or proof that you receive Federal assistance benefits) plus and ID. They also keep track of the frequency of visits and size of the household.


I'm sure there are still many pantries that aren't required to screen and choose not to do so, especially smaller ones sponsored by individual churches.



edited to add more detail about screening apps/

[No Elephants]

51. Thanks. Good to know. The food pantries with which I am familiar are stocked via donations of

money and food. They are run mostly by volunteers. They take a person's word that they need food, as long as they have the food to give. Many of them have been experiencing empty shelves, though, as need increases and donations dry up at the same time.

[Stuart G]

4. Overall impact is very very sad.

Those that were poor, were already in line. Now it is worse, and will get far worse than it is now. If we cannot feed our own people then what are we?
And I don't give a shit about whether or not they are legal or illegal, or whatever. You break a bone in UK, and they don't care who or what you are, you get treatment,
We have more food per capita, than anywhere in the world.
.. Surely, can take care of the hungry.

[No Elephants]

5. Sadly, the food pantries do not have enough food for those who have nothing. People making

$55,000 a year should really think about reorganizing their lifestyle so that they can avoid using a food pantry.

If you can possibly contribute to a food pantry, please think about doing that. Another thing: restaurants throw away literally tons of food at days' end. In Massachusetts, about twenty years ago, a COLLEGE KID worked with her state senator to get legislation enacted that protects the restaurants from lawsuits if someone claims claims that food the restaurants give away at days'end made him or her ill. And we got people to pick up the food from the participating restaurants at days' end and take it to homeless shelters. You can also think about doing something like that in your state.

and God bless the child that's got his own and still worries about those who don't.

[Stuart G]

7. No Elephants is correct..read from what No has said.. said.....

"If you can possibly contribute to a food pantry, please think about doing that".
thanks

[sakabatou]

11. Done that

Hell, I even volunteer at my local bank.

[rfranklin]

13. My wife and I contributed to this food pantry...

I am sure that there are people who live in million dollar homes that are shopping at the pantry. This is one of the richest counties in the nation. However, people live so close to the edge because they have always been able to get high paying jobs. It sometimes takes years for the new reality to sink in.

[Stuart G]

16. About the "new reality setting in"

I agree, this is going to take time. People that once had plenty, now are close to nothing. The market broke bad in September.
It is now only February. Four and a half months. People had so much in the market and other places. Those that had shaky mortgages knew they were in trouble. Those that had great jobs, and lost them, with no prospects for getting another, those are the people who will take the biggest fall. Many haven't hit yet.

The new reality may be as bad as the depression without the common feeling that we will need to help each other. Repuks are the assholes that say it is all "their fault"...

How these new poors and near poors deal is going to be very very ugly. Long time poverty knows how to cope. Poverty from my middle class doesn't know, or forgot so long ago, that those that did cope are dead, very old, or are too small a number to help.
All we can do is help when we can.

[No Elephants]

18. If there has been a change in circumstances, i can agree with you. but there is no

indication that the couple about which I was posting has had a change in circumstance, except another baby, which they could have prevented.

If people who live in million dollar homes need food as a temporary solution to changed circumstances, fine. But, if they simply can't afford their lifestyle, they are simply taking food out of the mouths of people who are REALLY up against it and I fear I have no patience for that. The food supply at food pantries is very limited these days.

I say this as someone who grew up in a very poor family. Both my parents worked their buns off in factories and took whatever overtime they could get.

One year, my father's factory gave him so much overtime, I literally thought he was going to die. He looked that bad when he got home from work. (He was in his sixties then, over 50 when I was born. Waited 8 years between my sister and me.) Other years, he was laid off a lot. It varied.

Then my parents split and there was only one salary for each of their households and things were even worse financially. We still had as much as we wanted to eat. Lucky thing, because I don't even think there were food pantries then.

Funny thing, though. We lived like a very poor family. Crappy apartment, no frills, same TV for about 20 years, etc.

[KittyWampus]

29. okay, that is a very fair and valid point! Re-prioritize your budget. Good advice

[kath]

42. 20% increase in food prices doesn't count? Doubling of co-pay, prescription and insurance premium

costs? Very high gas prices up until a few months ago? Huge heating oil costs in the northeast?

Such expenses have hit working families HARD in the past year or two -- to me, that counts as a "change in circumstance".

I do hear what you're saying though - there may be some people taking advantage of food pantries who have not cut all the fat from their budget, and that is wrong because it could take food out of the mouths of those who are really needy. But inflation has been huge lately - the govt lies their freakin' asses off on such #s as inflation, unemployment, etc.

[Mari333]

17. in Michigan, 55,000 a yr would mean you could live like the queen of sheba

nonetheless, perhaps they need to downsize in other areas.

[Stuart G]

19. Here is how $55,000..and poor., and if you do not think that millions are like this..well...

Large house...much too large...Let's say take home income...after taxes..of 40,000 a year..

that is about 3300 a month..give or take some..

so....2000 a month mortgage..
...... 400 a month food
200 a month car
200 a month utilities
500 a month for payments on other stuff.......(bought when you were sure the economy was great(.payment.on time.).

.+++++++++++++++++++++++

3300.......a month..................No clothes, no gifts, no luxuries, no money for college for 2 kids, no money for nothing..and no money for insurance....

............just broke..not hard to figure????
and I might add....feeling like the world has tumbled down on you....not knowing how you got there, unable to sell the house that you owe more on than is worth.............

[llmart]

22. Well, if that's the case......

and their mortgage payment (or anyone's for that matter) is $2,000 per month, then they were/are irresponsible. Just because "everyone's doing it" doesn't mean you follow the crowd like lemmings. My husband and I made a whole hell of a lot more money combined than this couple and we never paid more than we could comfortably afford on ONE income, even if we had two.

Sorry, a lot of people in this country have no critical thinking skills or common sense.

[Stuart G]

25. Of course these people might be irresponsible........

There was a climate that encouraged this. No critical thinking skills..well put.

But let us suppose that they wake up, try to sell the house, can't then what? How does one get out of such a hole?
Slowly and in a very difficult way.

[No Elephants]

46. Sell what house? Did the story mention the living situation of the couple?

[llmart]

55. Well, I don't know where in Michigan you live......

but in my neck of the woods of Michigan, $55,000 doesn't go very far. You can get a decent house "Up North" for very little, but there's not much there in the way of work.

[Lost in CT]

20. I'm not sure they are newly poor. In fact they seem to be taking advantage

of the actual needy.

Leave to the Times to do a story on poverty and focus on a middle class family where both people are still employed.

[Stuart G]

26. Some people do, most don't..

The Times has done a number of stories on people who were middle class and lost jobs. They fell into real poverty. Overall, if one reads all the stories, I feel the reader sees that poverty of all sorts is increasing rapidly in the U.S. The Times did stories on the homeless as well as the starving. The new homeless as well as the old. And I believe this could and will get much worse.

[BlueStateBlue]

21. I live in northern NJ. Morristown has its share of rough neighborhoods.

Morris County has some extremely wealthy communities, and some dives.

[Mr. Hyde]

24. I think a lot of people have no idea how to cook for one and that leads to paying premium prices

for boxed, canned, and frozen foods.

[bread_and_roses]

27. Why are people arguing about exactly who needs to go to a food bank?

If wages had not been declining for over thirty years, maybe there would be less need for food banks? If we hadn't outsourced nearly everything except service jobs, maybe there would be less need for food banks? If we had some sort of sane food policy maybe there would be less need for...if we were not so demented as to live in isolated nuclear families each "on it's own" maybe there would be less need for....etc etc. There are many ways to look at this problem that go beyond the band-aid approach of food banks. As long as we waste our energy trying to determine exactly who is "worthy" of help we are unlikely to explore them.

If you go to the Economic Policy Institute website, they have a Family Budget Calculator for many areas in the Country. I am not familiar enough with NJ to know exactly which greater metropolitan area Morristown falls into, but I looked at four of those listed, and the basic family budget for a family of four ranged from $49,000 to $55,000. This is a BASIC family budget: shelter, food, child care, transportation. No meals out, savings, gifts, etc. If your basic needs for four cost $49,000, that leaves precious little wiggle room on a $55,000 gross income.

http://www.epi.org/content/budget_calculator

[No Elephants]

30. Why are people arguing about who needs to go to a food bank? For one thing,

food banks are running out of food. It is not an infinite supply, like the five loaves and two fishes that just kept replacing themselves, the more people ate. That is the biggest issue, in my view. There are homeless people, people with no income, elderly and disabled with a lot less income and no propect of EVER having more, etc.

For another, the article described this couple as "newly poor" when nothing in their lives had really changed. Neither of them had lost a job or fallen ill or anything that changed their circumstances. So, the article is just off base.


Third, I believe that perfectly healthy, young people need to do what they need to do to live within their income on an ongoing basis, whether that means a cheaper place to live--even a cheaper state to live, increasing your income, deferring that second child, or whatever.

[bread_and_roses]

34. Why are we asking isolated individuals and famies to cope on their own?

You write, "I believe" - but so what? I don't mean that rudely - just a reality check. What you "belive" hasn't much relevance for how other people live their lives - they'll live according to their OWN beliefs - which might include not wanting to give up a government job, or wanting to be near family.

And it ignores the larger question - how did it happen that wages/cost of living went in opposite directions in this country, causing millions of low and mid-range income families to be unable to afford decent housing? Why is that OK? Why are we asking families to cope on their own with such disparities and not looking at how to correct them?

Think about it - if all the families in California who can't afford to live on workers' wages were to move to a "cheaper State" then there would be no child-care workers, no nursing home aides, etc. etc. That is simply not a feasable solution.

This focus on the individual and his/her decisions in the face of often impossible conditions is counter-productive. Feed one person here, another starves there. Make sure one child in US does not go to bed hungry and it doesn't change the fact that today and tomorrow ten others will go to bed hungry - charity is simply not a solution. Otherwise, after all these years those child "adoption" ads would not be still showing the same slums. No one should go hungry in a world with enough food, simple as that.

[Stuart G]

35. "No one should go hungry in a world with enough food"..bread_and_roses.

I have to agree.
This country, U.S.A, has the highest food productivity, and surpluses of any in the world. Why should anyone go hungry?
..This land was taken by the U.S. Government in the 1800s, by force. People were pushed off the land and sent elsewhere. Why shouldn't our current government set up a system so that everyone can share the abundance of that land? As long as farmers get fair price what difference does it make who gets food at food banks. Sure there are stupid people that should know how to manage money. And a few too who cheat. So what? What about the huge number that are really poor, and need the food. What about the children?

[No Elephants]

37. Drama much? Another reality check: Posting my opinion at DU does not force

anyone in Morris Country, NJ or anyone else to live any differently than they do. And this thread is not about California.

Something tells me that you have not read the entire thread.

[bread_and_roses]

41. explaining why I find your approach unproductive is "drama?"

My response to that comment is "huh?" I have addressed items you've cited, and provided a resource at EPI. I have put forward possible causative factors other than "personal irresponsibility." To none of which you've responded, unless implying that there can be no commonalities between low/moderate wage workers in NJ and CA is a response? (And btw, I have indeed read the entire thread.)

I am long past surprise at the "personal responsibility" brigade here, but no less in opposition to it. If the plight of this family were unusual, we might productively look at their personal decisions for "fault." But theirs is the plight of millions, if what I read in the news reflects any reality at all. Not only that, had not the declining real wages in this country been supplemented first by women going into the workforce and then by credit cards, we would have seen these situations widespread across the country much sooner.

When millions suffer the same plight, blaming individuals and looking to individual solutions and "charity" are insufficient remedies. Only a systemic analysis and remedy has any chance of being effective.

[wickerwoman]

48. Morris County is a commuter county for New York

which drives up the real estate prices massively. I used to live in the area and could not find a tiny studio apartment within an hour of work for less than $950 a month and that was seven years ago.

*Nobody* should be quitting their job and trying to move in this climate. And the crisis only hit mainstream news about five or six months ago... not to the extent that you would put off having a child if you weren't really struggling last August.

Anyway, given that they are in the situation that they are in... hungry, broke and unable to quit their jobs and move... what would you suggest they do? Let their baby go hungry because they should have known better?

I'm going to give anyone in the line at the food bank the benefit of the doubt. If they're willing to stand in line and if the food bank is willing to give food to them, then I'll accept that they need it and I hope that their circumstances improve.

[Missy Vixen]

45. How would you know?

>young people need to do what they need to do to live within their income on an ongoing basis, whether that means a cheaper place to live--even a cheaper state to live, increasing your income, deferring that second child, or whatever.<

They both currently have jobs. To give them up right now, and move to another part of the country, is INSANE.

Have you LOOKED FOR A JOB lately? Do you know that finding another job is taking a minimum of several months now, if you can find one at all? How about selling their house? We have no idea what they'd come out of that house sale with, do we? Ever heard of moving expenses? How about telling someone else they can't have another child?

You DO NOT GET IT. At all. We have people in this country bringing home $55,000 per year that are sufficiently strapped to find themselves in line at the food bank. Those in "cheaper areas of the country" are suffering joblessness as well -- how about Indiana, huh?

[No Elephants]

49. How would you know indeed! How would you know anything about this

couple, other than the few facts given in the story? How would you know anything about my life, other than the few facts I posted upthread about my early years?

Yet, you and others on this thread have concocted a life story for this couple and me out of whole cloth and then read things into my posts that I never said. For one thing, kindly point out where I told this couple or anyone else not to have another child?


How about sticking to the facts? For one thing, you don't know whether the $55K this couple described to the reporter as their annual income was gross or net. You don't know if they own a lavish home, a modest home or no home. You don't know if they pay a high rent, a low rent or no rent.

You don't know if their employers would transfer them, if they asked. You don't even know if they have considered moving. You don't know if they moved into Morris County last week or were both born there. You don't know if they are isolated or have a massive support system there.

Yet some version of all those facts has been assumed on this thread, and always to assume that this couple is pitiful and cannot possibly do anything different.

As for me, even though I have been posting about the donating to food pantries, and people who are more needy than this couple, the worst is also assumed. Kindly reconcile for me my concern about food pantries having enough on their shelves for those who have a lot less than this couple with your claims that my bit here is right wing style "personal responsiblity."

I know how much fun a self righteous rant can be, so I'm sorry to be confusing you with facts. You're right. The life of this couple is pitiful and hopeless. I expect everyone to take care of their own needs, even if they are totally unable to do so. Carry on.

[AyanEva]

33. I could see how they would be considered "poor"

if they lived in like DC or a suburb of DC. $55K for a family of four in DC or some place like that could very well be poor. I don't know if that applies in this situation or not, though.

[TBF]

36. Food first. K&R. n/t

[formercia]

39. When the Middle Class goes hungry

The Oligarchs will have removed the buffer that protects them.

[Redstone]

43. Mrs R volunteers at the local food bank 4 days a week, so we've seen this happen.

Our local food bank has been lucky to have enough food for the additional people, but they don't know how much longer that can last.

Redstone

[earth mom]

44. I'm on the fence on this one.

I was all set to defend this family and say something to the effect of-when people making 55K can't afford to eat, then we've got problems.

But after reading the thread through, I can see that there is a great potential for people to abuse the system. Who doesn't love "free" anything?

I also know that 55K is plenty of money for a family of 3 to live on, if you refrain from buying new cars and charging up the credit cards and otherwise living high on the hog, so I'm a bit skeptical about this family now. :shrug:

[Thickasabrick]

53. I hate to break it to folks but people resell food they get at the

food pantry. Unless the upc codes are blacked out - they will take the pantry food to a grocery store for something else or cash if they can get away with it.

I will probably be flamed for this but this couple is obviously not the best at planning - as evidenced by another baby on the way. If things were that tight for them, you would think they would have waited until things improved before adding another mouth to feed.

Flame away.

[Zodiak]

54. What a sad thread this is

Very few people lament that millions more are showing up to food pantries because everyday expenses are eating them alive, and this thread concerning that very subject devolves into a an argument about "let's see if we can fault these people so we don't have to waste any care on them".

This "blame the victim" and "personal responsibility" shit is a good portion of the attitude that got us in this situation in the first place. That, and the insistence on making some kind of judgment to these people from whom little facts are given.

People who were doing fine a few years ago are suffering today with the same income. That is the thrust of the piece. Just because you do not understand it from your personal experience does not mean that it doesn't happen.

I'd rather feed a thousand assholes looking to resell the food than pass over one person who is hungry. That used to be what made us differ from Republicans. So how can we make that happen? Answer...more donations to the food pantry (especially from the people who believe they have their ducks in a row), and perhaps a lot more help to the pantries in the form of money (including government money).

No one should go hungry. No one. This is not conditional on my personal judgment on anyone's individual life how tight I think their belt should be.

[Lost in CT]

56. I don't think this is blame the victim...

I think there are serious questions as to whether a young couple, both employed, are actual victims.

I agree that of a couple makes 55k a year they should not be taking food from those more needy.

It is a matter of class and morality mixed in with a bit of common sense.

[Zodiak]

58. If they are going hungry, they are victims

The fact that they swallowed their pride and showed up for food to help feed their family is enough for me. It certainly is not a reason to pull out the microscope and dissect these people's lives for evidence of flaws. It is this attitude of judge first, feed later that frankly is wrong with this country. You may call it call it morality, but from where I stand it knee-jerk judgment and moralizing.

First definition applies:

moralize or -ise
Verb
<-izing, -ized> or -ising, -ised
1. to discuss or consider something in the light of one's own moral beliefs, esp. with disapproval

I would prefer these kids fed. I would prefer that people look at a piece like this and give more instead of protect what little there is like a miser. I would prefer that we stop acting like a bunch of holier than thou jerks whenever poverty issues are brought up....all of the sudden everyone's credit is perfect, everyone has their crap together and three years of food stored away, and everyone has a 10,00 credit score....and anyone who doesn't gets no sympathy whatsoever.

I also would like to believe DUers are better than this.

[Lost in CT]

59. Do you really think a couple that makes 55k a year and are not

cocaine addicts are going hungry.

Maybe if they had some class they would allow th food bank to serve those that are truly needy.

(You know like the unemployed or homeless)

[Zodiak]

62. Depends on where they live and what their expenses are

For example, I am a heart patent and I have to pay for $400 worth of drugs every month to stay alive. This started when I was 23. These two most likely do not have health insurance because they do not work for businesses that typically feature it. With two kids, that is a real tragedy...and if they DID have insurance, then the cost is most likely killing them. What about child care? With two kids and both of them working, child-care becomes a major expense. Do you know how much dependable, licensed child-care costs in the region?

Rent there, as mentioned upthread, starts at about $1000 a month...for one bedroom. They have two kids...so one bedroom is not in the cards.

Also, the article says they live in one of the most expensive counties in the country. So if you do not live in one of those counties, you have no experience by which to criticize. Just because it is cheap to live where you do does not mean that translates to the entire country.

And you can repeat you point about "class" all you want, but I find it ironic in the extreme that when discussing people who need food for their children at a food bank, that "class" is a word you choose to highlight. Yeah, it is about class alright, but not in the way you think.

You see...I do not divide the poor into deserving and undeserving categories. When one is hungry, one is hungry, regardless of whether they are homeless, unemeployed, or underpaid and over burdened.

You actually think it is "classy" to question people who show up to food banks with hat in hand so you can judge the deserving poor from the undeserving poor? That's outrageous!

[Lost in CT]

66. I don't divide the poor in deserving and undeserving either.

I simply do not think that a household income of 55k a year is poor.

Not even close.

(If rent is 1500 a month that's 18k a year which leaves plenty left over for loaves and fishes.)

So yes I think people who take advantage of others generosity and take from those less fortunate lack class.

as an aside... "Also, the article says they live in one of the most expensive counties in the country. So if you do not live in one of those counties, you have no experience by which to criticize"

What does that even mean. I can't criticize unless I live in some hoity toity county like Fairfield county CT? Oh hold on I do live in a hoity toity county like Fairfiel County CT... yeah me. :silly:

Look I have walked a mile in their moccasins. They are gaming the system and being lazy with their budgeting (or lying about their income to the NYT. Simply put the food pantry should be reserved to those who have real need. Not those who cannot live without premium cable, a new leased car and a second cell phone plan.

[Zodiak]

67. Wow...just wow

You still think your anecdotal experience applies across the board to every family. Remember, you still know nothing at all about their individual situation, and have made tons of assumptions about them despite the food bank's position and what is reported to you by the NYT (which is all you have to go on).

In short, your objection to these people getting is all about YOU and YOUR resentments, and not their situation at all.

How "classy" of you!

End of discussion. Have the last word because I do not waste time arguing with brick walls. You want to exercise judgment, and damned be the facts getting in your way. Go ahead and rail against the "welfare queens" with all the venom you wish. Your motivations are now crystal clear to me.

[Gormy Cuss]

64. Tha's up to the food pantry to decide. This couple met their eligibility guidelines.

Did you read the article? This pantry made the decision to expand assistance to people who were in their income/expense circumstances. They aren't taking food from anyone.

As I posted upthread, this is a pantry with a formal application process requiring proof of income and other data in order to qualify. This family probably gets a minimal level of help whereas a lower income family would receive much more. There's no morality or matter of class involved. They need help, the agency says they are eligible, end of the story.

[Zodiak]

65. Thank you Gormy

The boots on the ground are giving this family assistance and feel they need it. They are in a much better position to judge than a DUer reading this article from a position of detachment.

To those making snap judgments about these people's lives....I'm glad you do not run a food pantry. Get some compassion...there isn't a "welfare queen" hiding behind every door.

[Carni]

57. I agree with you zodiac

The question SHOULD BE why can't a 55,0000 dollar salary a year, feed/sustain a family of four -- rather than *what are these assholes doing?"

Back in the day (that would be like 10 years ago) 55 grand was not a windfall but you could most certainly feed a couple of little kids and keep up with your bills (remain gainfully insured etc)

NOW? No way--and I am not talking about frills. Food prices are insane.

I would like to see Maddoff and this Stanford asshole taken to task like the struggling American family is :(

[Yavin4]

60. These People Live In the NYC-Tri State Area, And $55K Is Poverty Level

for this area. I have lived in NYC since 1996, and $55K is poverty level wages for this area, which includes Northern NJ.

The rule of thumb is that your rent should be 1/3 of your TAKE-HOME pay.

Let's assume this family pays 20% of their combined income in taxes.

So, their take home pay is $44K a year. Divided by 12 and their monthly take home is $3,666.67.

Using our rule of thumb, the most they should be spending on rent or mortgage is $1,200 a month.

There is no where in all of the tri-state area where you will find a place to rent for $1,200 a month. No where. Esp. for a family of four. This couple would need additional assistance.

If they pay more than a 1/3 of their take home pay, then they'd run into using credit cards to cover emergency expenses.

[Bill McBlueState]

61. Hey, don't get in the way of a good judgment-fest!

Some DUers would take a nasty fall off their high horses if they acknowledged that

*the cost of living varies from region to region
*moving is so expensive that it's unrealistic to just move to a cheaper region

[Yavin4]

68. And, Who's To Say They'd Get The Same Income if They Moved?

Other places are indeed cheaper to live BECAUSE the pay is much lower.

Sure, they could move to Oklahoma, but they'd probably would not make $55K per year.

[Zodiak]

63. Too many DUers buy into the myth of the "Welfare Queen" I think

Because whenever someone needs a hand-out, out comes the microscopes long before the consideration to help them even crosses their minds. Gotta make sure only the DESERVING POOR get fed, as defined by the strictest standards. For those that are not pure as the driven snow.....they can fucking starve for all these DUers care.

It's disgusting and this community should be better than to accept these positions without challenge.