(Obama's) Auto team drives imports: Fed task force has few new U.S. cars

[Psephos]

Source: Detroit News

WASHINGTON -- The vehicles owned by the Obama administration's auto team could reflect one reason why Detroit's Big Three automakers are in trouble: The list includes few new American cars. Among the eight members named Friday to the Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry and the 10 senior policy aides who will assist them in their work, two own American models. Add the Treasury Department's special adviser to the task force and the total jumps to three.

The Detroit News reviewed public records to discover what many of the task force and staff members drove, but information was not available on all of the officials, and records for some states were not complete.

<snip>

The co-chairs of the task force -- Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner and White House National Economic Council Director Lawrence Summers -- both own foreign automobiles. Geithner owns a 2008 Acura TSX, registered in New York. He once owned a 1999 Honda Accord and a 2002 Acura MDX, according to public records. Geithner is the president's designee for purposes of enforcing loan agreements with GM and Chrysler and must approve or reject any proposed transactions by either company that would cost $100 million or more.

His maternal grandfather, Charles Moore, was a vice president at Ford Motor Co. from 1952-63, according to Peter Geithner, the secretary's father. But Geithner wasn't very interested in cars growing up -- in part because he graduated from high school in Asia, his father said.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090223/AUTO01/902230327

[Greyskye]

1. This is what passes for news?

Shoot me now.

[Romulox]

3. Yeah. The integrity of our political process is BORING. I wanna know who won on Idol!

:sarcasm:

[Greyskye]

5. I didn't realize that there was a loyalty test required.

My mistake.

[Romulox]

6. LOL. Nope. No loyalty oath to work for the US GOVERNMENT.

:silly:

[Greyskye]

14. No loyalty tests - except for WE KNOW WHAT CAR YOU DROVE LAST SUMMER

:eyes:

They drive an import! Oh noes! It's the attack of the neo-liberals!

Yep, that's pretty :silly: all right!

[Romulox]

19. Right. What damage could those, deregulatin', free tradin', H1B lovin' neoliberals do?

Oh. Wait. They've destroyed the world economy. Ooops! :silly:

[Greyskye]

21. Sure you're on the right board?

Doesn't much sound like it. But feel free to wave your protectionist flag high and proud.

[Psephos]

26. He's on the right board, and so are you.

We each have a right to express our opinion without that kind of herd management.

Meanwhile, I think you've missed the point here. This isn't about private people being free to choose what car they buy. This is about the importance of perceptions in politics, and the need for leaders to walk what they talk. The idea that nearly the whole team picked to resuscitate the US industry drives foreign cars is a hypocrisy that anyone on Main Street can see.

Why can't you?

I'm gently suggesting that there are some things more important than the party line. :hi:

[Greyskye]

31. Sounds like a loyalty test to me.

And it's not "the whole team" that drives imports - just a sizable majority on a panel that isn't even completely filled yet.

So you are saying that the importance of perception in politics trumps being free to choose what car they drive. The hypocrisy that I see is that this conversation is taking place in "The Land of the Free".

And I completely agree that there are some things more important than party line. My point is that this should be a non-partisan issue.


"Do you now, or have you ever owned a Foreign car?"

"I refuse to answer due to the protections afforded me by the Fifth Amendment."

[Psephos]

50. Sounds like Politics 101 to me

Why do you think every time some hapless repug gets caught fooling around on his wife or tapping his toes in a mens' room or driving drunk there's a two-hundred-post thread on DU about it, with everyone in smack-down mode?

Because of the hypocrisy, not the sex or booze or whatever. The hypocrisy.

Now we have a dude who's in charge of the US Treasury gonna fix our banking system and use our tax money to jump-start the economy - but he's a tax cheat. And he's gonna fix our US auto industry - but he drives Acuras. His grand-dad was a VP at Ford, but so what...he likes cruising around in a foreign ride.

If he was a repug, this thread would also have two hundred posts, and you would be one of those mocking him.

That's why I said the bit about some things being more important than the party line. If you'd like to come to Michigan, I'll be glad to show you some more evidence of why we need hypocrisy-free leaders. Politics is a lot like banking - it depends on confidence. Just ask Bush.

[Greyskye]

60. Yep, it's hypocrisy all right

Everything that you folks buy is made in the US, right? Those of you arguing that these people shouldn't be allowed a government job unless they own American cars have never stepped foot in a Wal-Mart, right?

Nothing in your house was manufactured overseas? Oh, by the way, what brand cell phone do you own? How about sneakers? What does it say on the bottom of the calculator sitting on your desk?

How about the hypocrisy of setting up a straw man argument? "If you own a foreign car you're a neoliberal." Please. :eyes:

[Psephos]

63. You're confusing me with someone else

"If you own a foreign car you're a neoliberal."

I didn't say that, and don't believe that. You're the one with the straw argument here.

What I did say is that the people entrusted with overseeing and resuscitating the US industry - and in whose hands the economic future of UAW members lies - ought to be using their products. They have that choice.

What I further said, and will say again, is that this kind of political tone-deafness is going to cost us all plenty. In baseball, this would be called an unforced error.

Geithner is already viewed with suspicion or ridicule by sizable chunks of the citizenry because of his "taxes are for little people" actions in the past. This is salt on the wound.

[Greyskye]

70. Look elsewhere in the thread.

Romulox has made that ridiculous assertion multiple times. My apologies for conflating the two of you.


What I want in Government is accountability, transparency, and results. As long as they aren't doing anything illegal or unethical, I could care less about what they do outside of government life. What about the members who don't drive at all? Should they be kicked off because of that?


(edit to correct the spelling of Romulox's name)

[Psephos]

95. Accountability, transparency, and results - on these, we agree :)

I really don't care much what car Geithner the private citizen drives. I do care what Geithner the de facto Auto Industry Rehabilitation Czar drives, because symbolism is extraordinarily important in politics. That's basic political science, and to deny it is nonsense. The auto team is not doing much good for the perception of their seriousness or ability to understand the problems faced by those dependent on the US industry for their livelihood. Quite the opposite - workers look at these elites and their choice in wheels and feel like they're being had. That decreases the political capital the O Administration has to deal with this thorny problem. Political capital is even more precious than fiscal capital.

I want someone who loves music to teach music. I want someone who dreams calculus to teach math. I want someone who spends their weekends getting paint all over the studio to teach painting. Geithner, as pointed out in the article, has been indifferent to cars all his life, and doesn't drive a UAW-made product. He's not the man for this job. The very people whose jobs depend on him have no faith in him; they know he's not one of them, and until this job came along, couldn't have cared less about them.

IMO, we can do better. Disconnected elites without industry experience or passion are not the best we can do.

[Romulox]

36. My guess: You don't know what "neoliberal" means.

:hi:

[Greyskye]

40. I wasn't aware that owning a foreign car made you a neoliberal

Personally, I believe that unfettered trade with no safeguards is a recipe for disaster.

I feel the same way about pure protectionism.

[Romulox]

43. Well googled! Now why wouldn't a critic of neoliberals "belong here"

Mr. Self-appointed moderator? Hmmmm?

[Greyskye]

46. Why does owning a foreign car make one a neoliberal?

Hmmmmmmmm?

[Romulox]

49. Oh no. You answer my question first. You tried to bully me off this thread, after all!

:hi: :silly:

[Greyskye]

52. Fine. Neoliberal critics absolutely should be here.

Now, how does owning a foreign car make one a neoliberal?

[Greyskye]

71. I answered. Still waiting...

:hi: :silly:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

86. Are you seriously suggesting...

...that Obama should be making these appointments based on what car someone drives? That's ludicrous.

[Greyskye]

92. Not in his world, evidently.

:eyes:

[Romulox]

97. Nope. Rather, I suggest the cars these appointees drive reflect on their broader loyalties

If Geithner drove a Honda, but had fought for the interests of working people all his life, things would be different.

He does, and he hasn't. :hi:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

101. Yes, I'm sure that means he's a secret Japanese spy, too.

It's a fucking car. It's transportation, not some magic talisman. If he drove a Saab would that make him a double agent for the US and the Swedes?

[Romulox]

103. What a bizarre strawman you're flogging. He's a CORPORATIST, not a spy.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

137. True or not....

...what the hell does that have to do with which car he drives?

[snooper2]

88. Look at the source

:rofl:

[Romulox]

99. What's your problem with the Detroit News?

(this should be good.)

[high density]

2. Wow...

Is this a free country or not? These people earned the money and were free to spend it on the product they chose. GM, Ford, and Chrysler were free to compete for their money.

[Romulox]

4. A bunch of neoliberal hypocrites on an Obama economic team? I'm shocked! nt

[LuckyLib]

7. The American people have voted with their feet for years. That's why the big 3 are in trouble.

[depakid]

8. Might tell you something about the state of the US auto industry over the past 10 years

Don't see many SUV's on the list....

[Romulox]

9. Do you know of an automaker that doesn't make SUVs? If not, what a non sequitur. nt

[depakid]

15. Making them and pushing them

i.e. spending billions over years creating demand- are two different things.

[Romulox]

17. LOL. So GM made Honda, Toyota, BMW, et al. make them, and then made YOU want them?

Pathetic!

At any rate, your presence is required on the various AIG collapse threads! :hi:

[depakid]

24. Apparently, your understanding of marketing rivals your grasp of economics

Ford & GM led the market with larger and larger SUV's (all the way up to the Hummer). This was a calculated effort- designed to produce the highest short term return on investment (both in terms of the units produced and in terms of the advertising dollars). Over time, other mnufacturers followed suit.

You can read the not so pretty story about how this occured and was reinforced by poor public policy choices in Keith Bradsher's book

High and Mighty: The Dangerous Rise of the SUV.

http://www.amazon.com/High-Mighty-Dangerous-Rise-SUV/dp/1586482033

The trouble with short term profit maximizing is that it's often done without regard for longer term sustainability (or vulnerability to foreseeable changes in the economic climate). Same sorts of deals held true with many banks and financial institutions. WAMU played the ever larger mortgage game(s)- and lost. Westpac, on the other hand, looked at the situation in the early 00's. Management asked its chief economists "why aren't we getting in on this gravy train. They replied- because the returns aren't sustainable and may come tumbling down with a change in the business cycle.

Accordingly, Westpac retains high ratings- and what's left of WAMU is JP Morgan Chase.

[Romulox]

39. Your quote doesn't make the Honda, Toyota, BMW, and Mercedes SUVs cease to exist.

Nice attempt at obfuscation, however (not really).

Still don't see you on the AIG threads, btw. :hi:

[depakid]

54. AIG played the same game- and lost

Now it's having trouble selling off profitable assets at anywhere near a fair valuation- and its common stock is nearly worthless.

[Romulox]

82. "Lost" what? The $40 billion in US taxpayer largesse we handed over to the sounds of your cheers?

:hi:

[biopowertoday]

10. The US auto industry spend Millions on advertizing-telling us we

liked big cars and trucks-and cars with poorer gas mileage over the last decades. But many of knew better. sure they had some smaller ones with better mileage but I always felt i was drive a tin can.

Nissan has been my choice for the last 2 and half decades.


Now they are crying. too bad.

[Romulox]

11. Nissan - Because they care about the environment!

:rofl: :hi:

[Tempest]

12. Each one of those gets much better gas milage than their American counterparts

n/t

[Romulox]

13. Er, wrong. Nissan Titan = 13/18. Ford 150 = 15/20

But way to make crap up when you're caught with your pants down! :hi:

http://www.greencar.com/cars/2009-ford-f150.php

http://www.greencar.com/cars/2009-nissan-titan.php

[Tempest]

55. I have a Titan and I'm getting over 20MPG

Greencar.com has been caught posting wrong data before.

Talk about getting caught with your pants down.

[Romulox]

67. Right. You drive that gas hog "for the environment".

It doesn't get any sillier than this, folks. :silly: :silly: :silly:

[biopowertoday]

80. my Nissan still gets about 30 miles/per gallon.

[Romulox]

98. Right. But the Nissan ARMADA does not. Which makes your claim that Nissan doesn't build guzzlers

obviously false.

[CRF450]

148. Unless thats a stripped down reg cab base model with NO OPTIONS, I call BS!

20mpg my ass, thats only possible on the highway with a Nissan Titan or any full size truck. As far as I know, todays full size trucks get the same fuel milage as long as you compare the different brands loaded out the same. The Toyota Tacoma loaded out as a crew 4x4 only gets on average 1mpg more than my Dodge Dakota 4x4 crew cab with a 4.7 v8 mostly because a few hundred pounds lighter, my truck averages 17mpg and has gotten 21mpg on the interstate BTW.

From what I've observed, compact econo cars from the import makers do in fact get a little better than those of the Detroit made cars, but when you look at trucks/SUV's full size sedans, luxury cars and high performance sports cars, the imports do not get any better fuel milage! Not with the emission and safety requirements that puts on alot of weight. Car makers dont even tune the computers for max fuel milage, they always tune them to run kind rich which uses more fuel.

[CRF450]

149. In fact make a trip over to fueleconomy.gov, your full of it unless thats highway milage

Only one person got over 20mpg and thats for nearly ALL HIGHWAY driving. The claim that even import trucks and SUV's get better fuel milage is a load of shit, they all get the same.

[Romulox]

18. Er, Tempest? LOL. nt

[biopowertoday]

22. when ford builds a quality car I will buy it. until then it will be

Nissan. or maybe a toyota--i am looking. mine Nissan stanza is an 89. still runs great. just little things starting to go wrong--like rust from all the salt on the roads. oh well. i had another Nissan before one--!!out 10 years but it got run off the road by a 18 wheeler!!!

[Romulox]

32. But I thought you bought Nissan because they were a GREEN company?

Change your story much? :hi:

[Tempest]

56. Where does he say that?

He made no such claim in his two posts.

You're making shit up.

[Romulox]

34. Oh, BTW: "Consumer Reports Rates Ford and Japanese Brands Highest "

http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1016323_consumer-reports-rates-ford-and-japanese-brands-highest

:hi:

[TommyO]

41. Ford in virtual tie with Honda/Toyota for quality

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2155462/

[Romulox]

45. Notice that when it was proven that Nissan has WORSE mpg, he changed his story?

[TommyO]

48. I did! The Chevy/GMC pickups do even better

15/21 with the 5.3l engine.

Not to mention that the Chevy 1500 has the lowest number of problems per 100 vehicles according to the 2008 JD Power Initial Quality Study.

oops, not only better mileage, but a better built truck.

[U4ikLefty]

139. 2008 JD Power INITIAL Quality Study

this does not mean long-term dependablilty nor a "better built truck".

[biopowertoday]

79. I did not change my story. I added to it.

[peoli]

16. If the US auto industry made some progressive and interestingcars ever, maybe someone would buy them

[Lost in CT]

30. What exactly is a progressive car?... well besides

the look at me I am better than you Prius.

[high density]

72. Does the Prius come with an accelerator pedal?

I waste an awful lot of gas having to floor it past Priuses that are going slow. All I can figure is that the driver's attention is probably glued to a fuel consumption gauge and forgot where the narrow pedal on the right is and how pushing it down makes the car go faster.

[olddad56]

73. It is a car that only moves forward.

[Lost in CT]

74. LOL... I love it... my car is so progressive it doesn't even have reverse. nt

[damntexdem]

20. Well, that does suggest that they know their topic.

Although I do draw a Dodge Caravan (possibly made in Canada), we have two Toyotas (possibly made in California); and any new car we buy, should we do so again, would likely be a foreign make.

[Psephos]

23. Actually, it suggests exactly the opposite. Helping US automakers requires a feel for their product.

Furthermore, it suggests callousness toward the past and future income of UAW workers.

Finally, it shows remarkable ignorance of the importance of perception in politics. Did Team O not vet anyone on this?

[CJCRANE]

25. It could work the other way.

You don't want to hire a bunch of people who like the product and are simply yes-men who have no constructive criticism.

[Psephos]

27. Would you want a restaurant critic to not dine at the establishment she's rating? n/t

[high density]

76. Why does one need to own a car to rate it?

When I was shopping for a car a couple of years ago I found it was quite easy to gauge up the competition. Go to the dealerships and take test drives. Compare features, specifications, and price on websites. I ended up going with a car from Hiroshima.

[Psephos]

141. Geithner et al. aren't writing car reviews n/t

[fujiyama]

59. Vet anyone on what?

So Obama shouldn't have had cabinet members that drive imports? A feel for what product? As far as most people are concerned a car is a car. Which company can give them the best value for their money? For right or wrong, the perception has existed that US automobiles were inferior and voted with their pocket books.

This isn't a news story. This is about Geithner's personal cars - what HE drives. Who gives a shit? This isn't as though the Obama administration is using imports as government vehicles.

[Psephos]

62. On whether the people trusted with the future of UAW jobs actually used any of their products

As if there aren't any other qualified candidates for this in the 300 million US population who, umm, actually show they give a damn by using their wallet instead of their mouth to show they understand?

When someone's wallet and mouth are saying two different things, I listen to the wallet. Learned that from watching repugs.

[snooper2]

89. Well at least some of the folks won't be biased...

You know, if they all had Dodges, you would be bitching Ford and GM are not represented :rofl: :rofl:


This may be the dumbest thread of the week

[Psephos]

94. It's not about Chryslers, Fords, or GM cars

It's about UAW jobs.

If you think that's a laughing matter, I'd be glad to give you a tour of the comedy here in Michigan.

[Romulox]

83. These appointments feed at the public trough--this "free market" cant has no application there

In a "free market", I would choose not to pay the exorbitant salaries of a corporate crony like Mr. Geithner et al. So please save the "most value for the money" talk, would you? :hi:

[FrenchieCat]

28. So this means they won't be biased to any of the American Auto Companies.

This may not be so bad.

[Romulox]

35. Er, shouldn't represented of the US gov't be "biased" in favor of Americans? Or not?

:wtf:

[Runcible Spoon]

66. ...............

WOW.

Stupid comment of the day.

[FrenchieCat]

78. Coming from one who ranks right up there in the "Stupid Comment" department,

I'll take that as a compliment, coming from you!

[Romulox]

84. No. He was right. It's dumb to wonder if US Government officials should be "biased"

toward their constituents.

[CreekDog]

29. owning a "foreign" car is not a crime...and my Subaru was made in Indiana

as are many "foreign" cars. :eyes:

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

33. What if they don't like Detroit's vehicles?

Should they buy them for political appearance purposes? That doesn't sound like the honest thing to do.

Detroit shouldn't be trying to make people drive American, they should be trying to make people want to drive American again.

[Greyskye]

38. WINNAH!!!

"Detroit shouldn't be trying to make people drive American, they should be trying to make people want to drive American again."


This is it in a nutshell, boys and girls. :thumbsup:

[Kolesar]

53. Yes, they should buy American anyway

It is hardly an imposition.

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

64. I certainly don't believe it's a bad idea, nor an imposition, for consumers to buy American

When possible. However, it doesn't make much sense to ask people to buy a product solely out of national pride. If the best product is an American product, great. If it's not, we shouldn't be trying to shame people into buying it anyway, because it was "made by Americans!" We should be asking ourselves how we can make that product better.

These politicians obviously felt their choice represented the better product.

[cosmicone]

65. Detroit makes crappy cars with an expensive price tag

When Detroit makes cars that are equivalent in quality to the Japanese or Germans, I'll buy one of them. That doesn't make me hate labor and/or America.

I do detest greedy labor unions who always have a gimme attitude. I have no problem with labor unions who fight for working conditions, equality and fundamental rights such as safety and freedom from exploitation.

Granted that unions didn't cause management to bring out crappy and undesirable cars, so the management still bears a vast majority of the blame.

I think that in the SUV frenzy, management spent all its cognitive powers into how they could make their cars bigger rather than making them more reliable and energy-efficient.

I would put a clause in the bailout that Detroit would spend money on ads telling people how the big SUVs are bad rather than peddling them as safer and sexier. This is what we did to the cigarette companies and it is working for the good of the population.

[fujiyama]

81. To their credit

they have improved, at least for initial quality.

I haven't seen any long term quality rankings. Jury could still be out on that (but I'd love to see them - I could be wrong). To Ford's credit, I've heard some good things about the Fusion hybrid.

It's unfortunate to say, but there's still a stigma with a lot of American made vehicles. The problem is, they've been producing a lot of crap and I hate to say it, but I actually think GM's brand cutting didn't go far enough. Now, I can see the need to keep a few niche muscle cars and retro vehicles, but the Pontiacs I've seen in recent years SUCK. The Grand AM/Prix...G8? Yech. Chrysler is even worse. The Liberty?! Blech.

I don't see much other than the Volt that looks interesting down the line. I don't even know the point of keeping Buick and Cadillac? Why bother with GMC? Stick with two brands. Chevy and Caddy. Done. But nope. I hope they at least incorporate some of the Saturn designs with Chevy. They had a few good ones.

[cosmicone]

90. I agree

Saturn was the future and like a kidney patient selling his dialysis machine, GM decided to get rid of Saturn hahaha.

[Vinca]

37. Maybe they want to get to their meetings without having to call a tow truck. nt

[Romulox]

42. Neoliberals have no loyalty to their countrymen and women. This is not news to most of us. nt

[Greyskye]

44. Owning a foreign car does not a neoliberal make.

Fail.

[Romulox]

47. It makes one indifferent to the needs of Labor, which is a key attribute of a neoliberal.

[Greyskye]

51. Owning a foreign car makes you indifferent to the needs of Labor?

Well smack me and call me Sally! I wasn't aware that there was only one Labor Union in the US that mattered! Go Detroit!

[Tempest]

57. He apparently isn't aware that Nissan and Toyota makes vehicles in the U.S.

DUH!

[Romulox]

68. And you apparently aren't aware that those vehicles are made in non-union shops.

Oops. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

117. And are you are that Americans who buy cars are American workers?

So when American workers buy lemons, it hurt American workers.

[Romulox]

126. You need to add some sort of verb to that alphabet soup. n t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. aware

are you aware.

[tabasco]

75. Have you served in the military?

If you haven't, you're a commie pinko traitor.

[LanternWaste]

87. OK-- that was just funny.

OK-- that was just funny. :) :thumbsup:





300 million different Americans giving us 300 million different reasons why we're un-American. Although I'm sure one or two people may be accidentally correct, I doubt that those one or two people post here....

[Romulox]

100. If you think rightwing, "love it or leave it" blowhards are funny, boy, do I have a website for you!

[LanternWaste]

132. I simply think it's funny...

I simply think it's funny when someone who dictates to us what is or is not patriotic (you know, the flip side of the "love it or leave it crowd") is humorously illustrated to be just as clueless and full of hubris as those being dictated to...

[Romulox]

136. Nonsense. This has not a thing to do with "patriotism".

I certainly don't consider myself "patriotic", so it would be odd for me to accuse others of being un-patriotic.

This issue is about a board appointed to oversee the health of the US auto-industry that has no connection to, or respect for, that industry or the men and women whose livelihoods depend on it. To suggest anything else is to trivialize the destruction of a way of life for millions of working class Americans, and is, quite frankly, despicable.

[LanternWaste]

143. One may imply, parse and then deny...

"...so it would be odd for me to accuse others of being un-patriotic...."

Right. One may imply, parse and then deny...
“I suggest the cars these appointees drive reflect on their broader loyalties”



"...and is, quite frankly, despicable. "
As are implications that people are on the wrong board because the opinions of others may or may not be 100% compatible with yours. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, you see. So try not to play the role of the righteous and wounded martyr while carrying bloody daggers.




And yeah-- I'll laugh when I see intractable secular dogmas minimized in a humorous way. Although you may maintain the defense that it may not be funny and that I should be on another board, I'll keep laughing, as "There are no sacred cows more righteous than the ones we ourselves hold" M. Twain

[Romulox]

144. And one may be an old fool who attempts to project his own views onto others

"As are implications that people are on the wrong board because the opinions of others may or may not be 100% compatible with yours."

Gimme a break. The other fellow was spouting "love it or leave it" and you were braying and clapping like a trained seal. You should be embarrassed.

[LanternWaste]

145. No... I was laughing. And still am.

"braying and clapping like a trained seal. You should be embarrassed."

No... I was laughing. And still am. And will be in another ten minutes.

"loyalties..." Sheesh. :eyes:

How about this... think of something really damned clever to say, maybe imply that I'm not "loyal", or that I hate labor, or that I should be on another board or some other back-handed remark, and rest assured that you'll get the last word, as frankly, I'm seriously tired of your tap-dancing and back-tracking. If you were good at it, that would be one thing, but this clunky dogmatism prevents true grace.

So have at it, pal-- get that last parting shot in-- make us proud.

[Romulox]

146. You were laughing because you agree with a RW talking point. It's nothing to be proud of.

[tabasco]

134. Riiiiiight. Kind of like "buy American or you're an un-American neoliberal" blowhards.

You see, serving in the military is a choice. A choice which I made.

I served in the infantry, including two combat tours. I also drive a Toyota.

But, according to blowhards like you, I'm unfit to serve in the Cabinet.

What car to drive is a choice, just like serving in the military.

Now, regale us with your military experience. Since you are such a patriotic, American car (whatever that means anymore) driver, I'm sure you have chosen to serve in uniform, right?

Now.... that website you speak of. Have you been spending a lot of time there?

[Romulox]

138. You want to be an ala carte "progressive" who cars not for working people, feel free.

"Now, regale us with your military experience. Since you are such a patriotic..."

I'm not "patriotic", nor would I ever serve in the armed forces.

[Lorien]

85. Nice bit of RW propaganda. Members of the GOP may own American

brand cars-they they supported having built in Mexico, with parts outsourced to China. And it's not the "NeoLiberals" who are demanding that UNIONS take a pay and benefits cut for the "team" and not CEOs. American auto makers are headed up by a bunch of corrupt, greedy, unimaginative whores for Big Oil. They've been that way for decades; shipping manufacturing out of the country while bullying labor and building gas guzzlers that are in the shop every other freaking MONTH (yes, I grew up with two Fords and a Dodge-three complete pieces of crap that spent more time in the shop than on the road). They want those after market profits on repairs, oh yes they do!

If you want a villian to direct your seething hatred toward, look no further than American car company CEOs and executives. I doubt that they vote for Democrats.

[Romulox]

93. Supporting Labor is "RW"? Is this Bizarro Democratic Underground?

"And it's not the "NeoLiberals" who are demanding that UNIONS take a pay and benefits cut for the "team" and not CEOs."

Another rant predicated on a misunderstanding of the term "neo-liberal"? You might try www.google.com...

[Greyskye]

96. I'm still waiting for an explanation of your claim that owning a foreign car makes one a neoliberal

You said you would answer after I answered your question. I promptly did.

Well?

[Romulox]

102. After Lorien looks up "neoliberal", you should look up "strawman argument"

And I said no such thing. :hi:

[Greyskye]

104. Gee, that wasn't your response the first time I asked you that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3752526&mesg_id=3752722

Guess you never managed to come up with a coherent answer. Thanks for playing! :hi:

[Greyskye]

105. delete - wrong spot

[Romulox]

106. Add logic to the things you don't do very well, I guess. nt

[Romulox]

108. Add reading comprehension to things you don't do very well.

[Greyskye]

109. The post you are responding to is now here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3752526&mesg_id=3754078

[Romulox]

111. Who cares? nt

[Greyskye]

114. Romulox RUNS AWAY!

:rofl:

[Romulox]

120. You're coming off as a big, childish, bully. Step away from the keyboard for a bit.

BTW, I am at work. I do not prioritize responding to internet dullards. :hi:

[Greyskye]

123. I'm a bully because I ask you for an answer?

I provided an answer for you when requested. If you can't defend your position on a freaking internet board, then don't go whining that you're being picked on.

Suck it up, big boy.



And get back to work, slacker.

[Romulox]

124. No, you're a bully becauseone of your first responses to me was that I didn't belong on this board

The rest has been needy, whiny, hounding that has little (if anything) to do with the OP.

[Greyskye]

127. No, my first response to you was that I "didn't realize that a loyalty test was required"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3752526&mesg_id=3752540

You're not very good at this.

[Greyskye]

116. Nice ad hominem attack.

I guess when you can't think of anything substantive...

[Greyskye]

107. And by the way, yes you did. Here ->

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3752526&mesg_id=3752709

"Neoliberals have no loyalty to their countrymen and women. This is not news to most of us."

Your response to the OP.

[Romulox]

110. Bad link, and that quote doesn't say what you are representing.

Anyone with eyes and a basic grasp of the English language could tell you that.

[Greyskye]

113. Link fixed. Your logic isn't

Your logic is deficient.

1) OP links article where the only point is that "(Obama's) Auto team drives imports: Fed task force has few new U.S. cars"
2) Your response was "A bunch of neoliberal hypocrites on an Obama economic team? I'm shocked!" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3752526#3752539

Logic dictates that you are saying "If auto team drives imports (then) team members are neoliberal's." How else can you parse that?

[Greyskye]

118. And you ALSO said...

Me:
44. Owning a foreign car does not a neoliberal make.


Romulox (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-23-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. It makes one indifferent to the needs of Labor, which is a key attribute of a neoliberal.

[Romulox]

121. Again, is English a second language? You seem to have problems with groupings

John is a man. I am a man. My name is not John. How can this be? :silly:

[Greyskye]

125. Again with the ad hominem attack?

Weak.

[Romulox]

128. You need more attention than I can give you. Look elsewhere for it. nt

[Greyskye]

129. All I wanted was an explanation of how buying a foreign car makes you a neoliberal.

But as you can't do that, I'm quite satisfied. Have a nice day. :hi:

[Romulox]

131. You are demanding an answer to a proposition that only YOU have put forward

This is what's known as a classic "strawman" argument.

[Greyskye]

133. You are the one who put it forward:

1) OP links article where the only point is that "(Obama's) Auto team drives imports: Fed task force has few new U.S. cars"
2) Your response was "A bunch of neoliberal hypocrites on an Obama economic team? I'm shocked!" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3752526&mesg_id=3752539

Logic dictates that you are saying "If auto team drives imports (then) team members are neoliberal's." How else can you parse that?

[Romulox]

147. Read a paper. Obama's economic team is made up of "free traders", neoliberals

and Wall Mart shills.

Maybe if you understood the news in context of other current events of the day, these sorts of discussions wouldn't be so frustrating for you?

"Logic dictates that you are saying "If auto team drives imports (then) team members are neoliberal's."

Logic dictates no such thing. You are no logician.

[LanternWaste]

58. Unless and until..

Unless and until every car, every appliance, every product that each "critic" owns in their household is made solely in the U.S., and solely by American workers, then I imagine some mirrors should be peered into.

I remember this happening during the Reagan era too.

[fujiyama]

61. The conclusion I come to

after reading the article, is that Joe Biden's dad gave him a nice gift.

What surprised me a bit was there weren't really too many high end vehicles on the list - not too many Beemers, Mercedes, etc. A few Lexuses here and there.

They sounded pretty ordinary.

[Runcible Spoon]

69. Probably because they all use car services.

I'm sure you will see a lot of luxury cars in the livery services.

[Lost in CT]

77. Those tend to be American made (Town cars) nt

[DS1]

91. It's going to take a long time for the big three to recover

When I was browsing around for a new car, I didn't even consider going to one of their websites. It was either Honda, Toyota, or VW

[JPZenger]

112. Higher % of Hondas US Made than Pontiacs

I went to an auto show last year and read the US/Canadian content of all the different manufacturers on their window stickers. The highest US/Canadian content was among Honda vehicles. The lowest North American content was among Pontiacs. A very high percentage of Toyotas are assembled in the US(except Priuses, which are made in Japan).

The issue is then complicated by foreign nameplates controlled by US companies. For example, Mazda and Volvo are controlled by Ford. Mazda and Volvo have provided the platforms for a couple Ford products, such as the Fusion and the Taurus. Mazda 6s are US made, while most other Mazdas are made in Japan.

The US content varies greatly from model to model within each manufacturer.

[Psephos]

115. The real issue is whether the cars are assembled by UAW workers

Because it is UAW jobs and retiree/family pensions and medical coverage that are going to evaporate if Big Three companies go away.

[Romulox]

122. Link please?

I went to an auto show, I read the opposite. :hi:

[marksmithfield]

119. so much for buying American n/t

[SOS]

135. Import?

The Honda Acura is built in Marysville, Ohio.

Maybe Geithner should buy a Chevy Cavalier, built in Ramos Arizpe, Mexico, by $1.50-an-hour workers?

[Psephos]

140. Maybe he should buy a car assembled by UAW workers

Since those are the people he purports to "save."

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

142. Y'know, I'm getting pretty sick of these UAW folks using Chinese computers.

Fucking hypocrites.

[Psephos]

150. Y'know, I'm getting pretty sick of these DU folks using anti-union rhetoric.

We support union labor here on this board - or haven't you heard yet?

Meanwhile, maybe you'd like to shop for your next computer where Detroit UAW members you just slandered buy theirs: http://www.unionbuiltpc.com/aboutus.php

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

151. I have no problem with unions.

I have a problem with having my loyalty and patriotism questioned because of the car I chose to drive. It's entirely possible to support unions without supporting that stupid noise.

[Psephos]

152. Who questioned your loyalty and patriotism?

No one. If you choose to drive a car not assembled by UAW hands that's fine, and has no bearing on your loyalty (to whomever) or your patriotism. Personally, I don't care much for conventional patriotism, anyway - it seems like herd thinking wrapped in a flag.

This thread is not about you or any other private citizen who exercises their right of personal choice. It is about the cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy of placing the economic future of hundreds of thousands of UAW workers in the hands of people who have shown with their wallets that they do not support them, do not participate in their culture, and until this moment of opportunity came along, would never have involved themselves in trying to better that industry.

No one is questioning Geithner et al.'s patriotism, to use the cliche straw argument. They are questioning his suitability for the job, based on the obvious hypocrisy. Geithner's "taxes are for little people" evasive maneuvers are also bad news. Political power depends on trust and image (as the pugs learned in 2006 and 2008). Geithner et al. fail the smell test based on their purchasing decisions, and you won't find many among the people they're supposed to "help" who say different.

I can't believe I have to argue that it's stupid politics to be aware of the power of perception in politics. We can save actual competence for another discussion...that would be a long thread, too.