Anthrax spores don't match dead researcher's samples

[robertpaulsen]

Source: The Raw Story

Poisonous anthrax that killed five Americans in the weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks doesn't match bacteria from a flask linked to Bruce Ivins, the researcher who committed suicide after being implicated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a scientist said.

Spores used in the deadly mailings ``share a chemical 'fingerprint' that is not found in the flask linked to Bruce Ivins,'' wrote Roberta Kwok citing Joseph Michael, a scientist at the Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Michael analyzed letters sent to the New York Post and offices of Senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy, and found a distinct "chemical signature" not present in the flask known as RMR-1029, which Ivins could access in his laboratory at Fort Detrick, Maryland.

``Spores from two of those show a distinct chemical signature that includes silicon, oxygen, iron, and tin; the third letter had silicon, oxygen, iron and possibly also tin,'' Kwok wrote. ``Bacteria from Ivins' RMR-1029 flask did not contain any of those four elements.''

Read more: http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Anthrax_spores_dont_match_dead_researchers_0226.html

---

Can you say Rush to Judgment?

[maxsolomon]

1. nothing to see here. move on.

:tinfoilhat:

[catgirl]

17. GMAB

[maxsolomon]

166. sorry forgot the

:sarcasm:

[we can do it]

107. Just Like the Convenient Plane Crash of the Election Rigger/ RNC Emailer

[Mrs. Overall]

2. Very interesting...so why was Ivins "suicided?"

[global1]

4. To Hide The Truth......

dead men don't tell no stories - and they take the blame well because they can't defend themselves.

[Judi Lynn]

33. Absolutely! Very well expressed. n/t

[Mrs. Overall]

71. But, wouldn't whoever killed Ivins know that eventually the truth would come out

and then it would be glaringly obvious that lies surround the investigation?
Now, it seems there will be even more attention to not only finding the real perpetrator, but why Ivins was implicated in the first place.

[Joe Chi Minh]

92. Evil and rationality are mutually hostile. The former also very much tends towards

short-term thinking.

[The Doctor.]

95. Very astute.

[druidity33]

96. um, plausible deniability?

Blame everything on Conspiracy Theories!

Those crazy people still think there was no moon landing!



There will be less attention and this will stay on the outskirts of "reported" stories. Hate to be a pessimist, but NO ONE wants to talk about this case and its implications.


:shrug:

[PassingFair]

148. I think he was a wee bit unstable in the first place, and they HOUNDED him to death.

I think they made him paranoid and crazy
and he killed himself.

They dredged up all kinds of innocuous,
petty crap on him to make him seem like
a crazy stalker guy.

His co-workers stood by him until the end.
They seemed like good eggs.

[Old and In the Way]

6. Obviously, to wrap up a loose end.

This had to be fixed before this administration left the WH. From what I've read, this guy Ivin's didn't really fit the profile. At this point, I'm not even sure that I believe he took his own life. He was a devout Catholic and suicide is considered a mortal sin. I still think the guy that fits the crime was let off the hook.

[DaLittle Kitty]

37. Exactly This Is Becoming Increasingly Common. America Has Gone To Pot!

:think:

[shadowknows69]

63. We were ruled by the Washington equivalent of "The Sopranos" for 8 years

That's how things are done in that thing of theirs.

[mrgerbik]

125. more like 20 years + nt

[Mrs. Overall]

73. But now that the truth is out, won't a new investigation be launched to find

the real perpetrator?

I just can't believe this would now be dropped and not pursued as to why an innocent man was implicated in the crime.

I hope this won't be a case of "we need to look forward and not backward." The new administration should open up a new investigation.

[Old and In the Way]

83. I sure hope so.

This was really an attack on Democrats and the media. It came right after 9/11 and just as the Patriot Act was being rammed down our throats. The fact that it took 7 years to find a patsy, just months before the Bush administration was ending their reign of disaster should be raising red flags all over the place. I'm hoping Patrick Leahy will raise Holy Hell about this revelation. Now the question is....why did they zero in on Ivins if this key evidence is unlinkable to the strain used in the attack. What other evidence do they have? I'm betting none.

[glinda]

132. Timing was everything you are right. The finger points to the White House easily.

[PassingFair]

149. He was dead and could no longer defend himself against

the lies about him personally, and the ridiculous,
erroneous and circumstantial "evidence" against him.

It was an OBVIOUS white-wash.

[rucognizant]

150. I recently heard......

A Democrat say, ( or was it independant Bernie Saunders?) that they couldn't read the Patriot Act before BEING PRESSURED, to pass it because it was in their offices in the Senate Bldg. CLOSED OFF by the anthrax attacks.

[Imagevision]

56. so why was Ivins "suicided?" - Clearly Bushco needed a scapegoat to confirm a hoax

[Mrs. Overall]

72. But now we know that it was a hoax, so it seems that the plan has ultimately backfired--

was it fabricated so that they could get out of office with it seemingly solved and now they have some sort of immunity?

It just seems like it was a stupid move to have Ivins killed if it would soon be obvious that he didn't do the crime. His family has been proclaiming his innocence for months, so I guess they are vindicated.

Will a real investigation ever be launched?

[JackRiddler]

111. How has anything backfired? Only if a real investigation is launched...

and lands the real perps. Otherwise, it worked.

They get away with everything. Being exposed later is irrelevant if no one is punished.

[The abyss]

103. For me it was and always will be just the “machine”.

The Bush administration was just another administration in a long line of corruption the American people still tolerate as their “government” A choice We The People are allowed to think we are making.

But – more and more wake up every day. Big country, lot of people, sometime very soon, it will be impossible for the charade to continue.

[RaleighNCDUer]

70. Because he said 'It wasn't me' one time too many. nt

[tavalon]

156. I actually think he committed suicide, but that he was pushed to it

by this obvious railroading that was happening. But perhaps he was suicided.

[amitten]

3. Hello, Dick Cheney. Nice spores ya got there. n/t

[robertpaulsen]

19. Excellent reminder for the 9/11 Cipro King.

White House Mail Machine Has Anthrax
By Sandra Sobieraj
Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, Oct. 23, 2001; 8:11 p.m. EDT

snip

At least some White House personnel were given Cipro six weeks ago. White House officials won't discuss who might be receiving the anthrax-treating antibiotic now.

On the night of the Sept. 11 attacks, the White House Medical Office dispensed Cipro to staff accompanying Vice President Dick Cheney as he was secreted off to the safety of Camp David, and told them it was "a precaution," according to one person directly involved. (Emphasis added)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011023/aponline201158_000.htm

[dixiegrrrrl]

80. Guy name of Jerome Hauer very very involved in the Cipro dosing

and was Gulliani's Emer. management guy, the one who insisted on putting NY Mayor Emergency Headquarters in Tower 1, and was good friend of Stephen Hatfill, who was working for the military anthrax program USAMRIID at Fort Detrick and Battelle, a huge pharmacy company with many ties to the CIA.

In fact, he was also one of the "experts" who was interviewed over the phone about 15 minutes after the 9-11 attacks, and who stated it was Osama bin Laden's handiwork.
but, no fear, he is on "our" side, so no one noticed all his "co-incidental" poppings up.

Just saying......

[druidity33]

98. ooooo... that's juicy.

Where is this fellow at now? What's he been doing since then?

[dixiegrrrrl]

123. Well, let's take a look at see if we can find out.....

schlep schlep schlep.....

Wiki says:
Jerome Hauer is the Chief Executive Officer of The Hauer Group LLC, a consulting firm and has served as a Director of Hollis-Eden Pharamaceuticals since June 2004.
Hmmm....vague.. but..note the pharma connection.
That, along with the CIA, Anthrax/Citpro connection...
wonder what old Hollis-Eden is making ?
Muckety shows interconncections between Hauer and companies which
" focused on the development, manufacture and commercialization of immunobiotics. The company operates in two business segments: biodefense and commercial. In its biodefense business, Emergent develops and commercializes immunobiotics for use against biological agents that are potential weapons of bioterrorism. In its commercial business, the company develops immunobiotics for use against infectious diseases with significant unmet or underserved medical needs."

I invite any further interest to muckety.com, plug in Hauer's name and watch what pops up.

This guy is hooked up with private bio-weapons companies AND is also the Acting Ass't Sec. of the US Dept. of Health and Human Services..
and is connected with at least 2 lobbying groups.
And is the Director of a Pharmaceuatical firm.

What could go possibly go wrong there?

[Muttocracy]

129. !!!!!!!!!

[druidity33]

147. ACK!shit!!!!!!.......

And there are more people like this, probably hiding in plain sight....

all doing their dirty work, little by little.


Sickening. Has Amy Goodman done a piece on this guy? Salon?

[caseymoz]

137. Peculiar how all this is coming out after Bush leaves office, don't you think?

:sarcasm: :kick:

[BluePatriot21]

5. I keep telling them

to check the spore against the ones that Cheney had and this all could have been resolved 7 years ago, I thought they were spying on our emails, posts and phone calls? Sheesh where is the justice in this world?

[nichomachus]

7. See, we all wondered

exactly what boxes Cheney was moving that hurt his back before the inauguration. Now, we know -- it was anthrax spores. He didn't trust those to American Van Lines.

[populistdriven]

22. didnt he already burn a bunch of files?

I thought his office burned a year or so ago

[nichomachus]

27. Well, there was that and an industrial shredder

that visited his house on a monthly basis.

[tanyev]

42. What did he keep in those man-sized safes?

Hmmm?

[nichomachus]

48. Jeff Gannon -- they liked to get a little kinky -- their version of "safe sex"

[chollybocker]

75. That kinky stuff is what put him in a wheelchair

[nichomachus]

85. No -- Uncle Dick is a top

Actually, he's a dick, but what the heck.

[chollybocker]

89. Cool. I didn't know Gannon was also a portrait photographer.

His use of light and shade is breath-taking. Yeah, I said BREATH-TAKING, BOY!

[No Elephants]

141. LOLOL!

[Frisbee]

100. He was just concerned about...

the health of the movers. Thats just the kind of guy Dick is. :rofl:

[asjr]

8. Maybe Ivins was going to beat them

at their own game and sue the U.S. like Hatfil did. I have always thought he had some "help" in comnitting suicide.

[EFerrari]

9. I saw that last night. So, all the claims about reverse engineering

leading straight to the "sole custodian of the flask" was COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

:shrug:

[acmavm]

10. Oh my my my. I guess that means that along with bin Laden, the anthrax

killer is still out there thumbing his nose at us.

(I don't really think bin Laden is alive. But who know?

[fascisthunter]

11. It Was an Inside Job

and Republicans know who the culprit was...

[EFerrari]

15. The weird thing is that even if the spores HAD matched,

they still couldn't prove Ivins had anything to do with it. Not to mention, their own rockstar microbiologist was saying shortly after Ivins died that science alone could not resolve this.

And Mueller is still around for two more years.

[fascisthunter]

20. incredible, isn't it?

[leveymg]

59. Ivins had access to numerous spore samples during his career. He developed several vaccines

the rights to which were eventuallyt consolidated into a monopoly by Bioport. BTW: Bioport is partially owned by Carlyle Group. See,
Daily Kos: Bruce Ivins: A Dead Scientist and The Great Anthrax Vaccine Monopoly ...Aug 5, 2008 ... This is about how BioPort/Emergent -- with the essential help of Dr. Ivins -- reconsolidated its monopoly over the federal anthrax vaccine ...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/5/171348/5311/310/563110

[EFerrari]

61. Hey, leveymg.

I've been putting off going over his emails which were released a while ago. May be time to saddle up.

By now, both Leahy and Daschle must know that this is bs.

[leveymg]

159. Here's something else interesting: the source of accusations about Iraqi anthrax

Chalabi's "Curveball" hoax about Saddam's alleged mobile bio-weapons labs was based on speculation within US and Israeli intelligence sources about anthrax trailers. The notion apparently originated in 1994 when Israel claimed Iraqis were transporting biological agents in red-painted icecream trucks. See, http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0329-05/htm . Hatfill actually designed such a trailer on a CIA contract in 2000, and oversaw its contruction at a site near Ft. Detrick. The alleged possession of mobile germ labs then became a major part of the Bush Administration's case for invading Iraq and set off a great anthrax trailer hunt inside Iraq that turned up nothing more than weather balloons at an abandoned desert airbase. Judy Miller, an associate of Chalabi and Naor Gilon (the Mossad Chief of Station in DC), played these allegations to the max in her role at The Times in support of the invasion scheme. She also rode along with the unit that searched Iraq in vain for Saddam's WMD. See, http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/05/27/times/index.html. After Hatfill was accused of being a suspect in the anthrax attacks, Miller was the source that broke Hatfill's role building these trailers. See, http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE6DB133AF931A35754C0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all.

Furthermore, right after 9/11, it came out that Israeli sources had spread an apparent hoax that Saddam had attempted to smuggle large quantities of anthrax into the US and Britain in 1998, and that Iraq had given Mohamed Atta anthrax. See, www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2001/me_iraq_10_27.html Someone else responsible for spreading the hoax that Iraq was behind the anthrax attacks was our old friend, John McCain. http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/01/mccain-anthrax-iraq/.

Israeli sources were also behind allegations, later refuted by U.S. and UN investigators, that Syrians, Lebanese, and Iranians had secretly trucked all of Saddam's WMDs out of Iraq, and had hidden them in the Bekka Valley and at sites in Syria. See, http://www.analyst-network.com/articles/20/SyriasRoleinDestabilizingIraq.doc.

Small world, isn't it?

[dixiegrrrrl]

162. You heloed me understand the link between Hauer and Bio-Emergent

see my muckety notes about him, upthread, and here is the link:

http://www.muckety.com/Jerome-M-Hauer/16005.muckety

Hauer weaves in and out of the whole anthranx story, the CIA connectoin, the WH connection and now I realize what the Bio-emergent connection is.

Added to my file....thanks for your info.

[leveymg]

168. Hauer and Hatfill were linked by 98 and 99 bioweapons conferences, but Hauer was also tied into Bio-

Emergent, which had a major commercial interest in anthrax vaccines being developed by Ivins. Another link between is SAIC where Hauer was a Vice President and head of the Counter-Terrorism Technologies unit, and Hatfill a contractor who built the mock anthrax trailers on a CIA-funded grant.

Hauer and Hatfill were both the source of an enormous amount of disinformation about foreign anthrax programs.

Yes, Hauer appears to be a nexus. A lot of people have made that point about him for various reasons. This may be another.

[robertpaulsen]

171. Hey leveymg, don't forget the BioPort connection with another famous "suicide": David Kelly.

BioPort's owner is Porton Down. Guess which other "suicide" worked for them?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3742901#3747727

[leveymg]

172. Yes, the network is small and interlinked.

Could analyze this according to how often a person appears as a hub and a spoke, and compare that to degree of motivation, and how close they are to the means of the crime.

Looks like Hatfill has to be in the top tier in all categories. Hauer appears to have high motive, is highly interlinked as a second-tier suspect, but its unclear how he had access, unless he was working with someone who did. Miller had high social contact other players but had no opportunity to handle anthrax, so her role is tertiary. Ivins had high opportunity and proximity to some of the others, but his motive is less clear.

[frylock]

12. kickeroo..

and a rec por vu.

[Titonwan]

13. It's all a huge cover up, including 9/11

And the ONLY way we're gonna find out is to investigate Bush. Let's get going. K&R

[nc4bo]

14. I'm shocked and awed!

There are some here :tinfoilhat: who had come to that conclusion quite a while ago.

Now the man's dead.

[catgirl]

16. This guy was harassed to death

and justice needs to be served. All of his collegues spoke up for him, but they too, were ignored. This
was a blatant coverup and an innocent man's life was destroyed.

[Solly Mack]

18. Imagine that

K&R

[Gregorian]

21. We here on DU have not been wrong about a thing.

I am dying to find out where this spore came from.

Please let us hold a god damned trial for war related crimes. PLEASE! No more Warren Commissions.

[byeya]

23. How much credibility could a "Scalia Commission" expect.?

That seems to be where we are heading though...probably Mr Fixit ex-Sen Mitchell from Maine will do the honors.

[zeemike]

30. No probably Arlin "Magic Bullet" Specter..

And probably the guilty man has already gotten away with it...Hatfield...and been paid off for his service with the millions from the law suit that was settled by the government.

[Politicalboi]

62. But let's not blame anyone

Becuase what good would that do? :banghead: Specter was there for the 9/11 commisson too.

[Old and In the Way]

86. Important point. How many other suits brought against the Bush administration

got resolved for civilian plaintiff? Not many at all. The investigation was designed to blow up. I think he was getting tipped off on the government's case. This guy had a very interesting resume while working in South Africa on anthrax as a weapon. I think it was a pay-off as well.

[robertpaulsen]

77. We were right and totally on top of it.

There were a number of great research threads in the wake of Ivins "suicide":


Suspect in 2001 anthrax attacks kills himself
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3418728

(ABC News) EXCLUSIVE: Anthrax Suspect Under Scrutiny Since 2002 (assisted FBI anthrax investigation)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3419599

Hair Samples in Anthrax Case Don't Match
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3438282

Glenn Greenwald: Vital unresolved anthrax questions and ABC News
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=374080

Anthrax, Saddam and ABC News
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3714643

NBC News: DOJ is expected to make decision with in days whether to close anthrax investigation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3715993

The Smoking Gun has Documents re the Anthrax Suspect
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3715563

ANTHRAX & ABC: They’re not protecting “sources.”-They're protecting "fabricators and liars"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3717402

I think Bruce Ivins was Murdered I mean Suicided
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3718959

No Autopsy for Bruce E. Ivins (Anthrax "killer")...Case Closed.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3719816

2 good NPR reports on anthrax - clearance, colleagues, family harassment
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3721081

My two cents on the Anthrax Suicide… from a former spook
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3719911

Anthrax suspect would have gotten vaccine royalties
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3719123

MUST Read- Dr. Meryl Nass, MD on Ivins "Suicide."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3720371

"Whole Load Of Crap"-Larisa Alexandrovna Has Low Down On "Therapist" To The Anthrax Suspect
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3727237

FBI was told to blame Anthrax scare on Al Qaeda by White House officials
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3725877

Scientists Question FBI Probe On Anthrax (WAPO)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3723620

Anthrax, Bruce Ivins Case Research-Resource Thread - Update & Rate Please
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3728633

The anthrax thing 1. no one buys it 2. they've awoken a dead story trying to wrap it up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3727867

Officials: Sorority obsession seen in anthrax case
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3728849

The Massive Smear Against Bruce Ivins: Cui Bono? (Pre-emptive strike on truth?)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3729657

FBI fails to convince victims of anthrax mailings that Ivins did it
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3733470

Greenwald: The FBI's emerging, leaking case against Ivins
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3733195

Most of reporting uncritically based on Duley's restraining order hearing audio
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3724189

Attn. ABC media whores. You are being called out for your anthrax lies in the UK press
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3732645

Bruce Ivins: A Dead Scientist and The Great Anthrax Vaccine Monopoly
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3734640

"THE NEW WHIG"-ABC/Anthrax/Iraq-An epic propaganda onslaught of distorted intel-Larisa Alexandrovna
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3736972

Glenn Greenwald asks us to sign a petition asking for a REAL Anthrax Investigation...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3736621

PART II: Anthrax, Bruce Ivins Case Research-Resource Thread - Update & Rate Please
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3737555

“It Was Ivins, With a Flask, 200 Miles from the Site of the Crime”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3741193

Brian Ross was ordered to disclose his sources for the anthrax story last year
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3739878

FBI Identified Source Of Anthrax Years Ago, But Case Remained Unsolved And Ivins Continued Working
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3741831

Did Dr. Ivins Act ALONE????
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3745006

Who stood to gain financially from the acknowledged domestic military-industrial anthrax terrorism.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3742901

CNN edits story regarding Ivins' whereabouts on 9/17 and fuzzes up time.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3754666

"FBI Implicated in Anthrax Mailings Cover-Up"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3778301

What the FBI Knows: For Bruce Ivins and for us
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3781376

sfexpat2000 found a major discrepancy in the FBI's newest spin on Ivins - anthrax case
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3765986

Did Anthrax Powder Come from Dugway Proving Ground?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3768930

Glenn Greenwald nails it to the wall yet again.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3775001

Anthrax Spin and How BMI Came to Develop Deadly Weaponized Anthrax
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3783961

FBI's "Smoking Gun" Against Ivins Evaporates
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3795570

TPM: FBI Appears To Change Theory In Anthrax Case
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3801522

If I PROMISE to stfu about the anthrax case until Wednesday
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3818232



And then there's my contribution's from my archives:

Focus Should be on Cheney in the Wake of the Anthrax Suspect "Suicide"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3715949

Larisa Alexandrovna: More terrorism, of the bio-right-wing kind?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3716515

Grand Jury Investigating the Anthrax Attacks? Who's the Prosecutor?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3730203

"The Ripist" Speaks; FBI Coaching is "Duley" noted.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3734905

[EFerrari]

87. A couple more.

August 18, 2008 at 17:49:51
The Bruce Ivins Anthrax Case coverage, not so good.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Bruce-Ivins-coverage--by-Elizabeth-Ferrari-080818-600.html

August 30, 2008 at 22:01:56
Kristof Still Doesn't Get the Anthrax Story: The Justice Department, Bush Science & Our Sorry Media

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Kristof-Still-Doesn-t-Get-by-Elizabeth-Ferrari-080829-143.html

[Joanne98]

24. Have they checked Cheney's house yet?

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. This guy is innocent

This is, and should be, a national disgrace.

[McCamy Taylor]

26. So the Bush admnistration killed an innocent man. Still think the DOD did it to force

troops to get vaccinated. That was my first theory from day one---the military could not get its own soldiers to take the toxic vaccine to protect them from the U.S. military's own secret weapon's program anthrax, and unless the troops were vaccinated, the Pentagon could not develop the biological weapon. So, the DOD mailed the spores, using 9/11 as cover to stir up excitement and fear so that its troops would go ahead and get their shots, so that the military could proceed with its weapons program.

That is still my number one theory almost 8 years later. Anyone got a better theory?

[EFerrari]

29. Wasn't the Patriot Act rammed through in the aftermath of these "attacks"?

So many crimes, I get them confused. :crazy:

[NoName Left]

46. Patriot Act 'shovel ready' 2 weeks after 9/11 and guess who wrote it?

Why, none other than Jeff Yoo. That in itself should be reason enough to revisit - and disassemble - the “United and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism. USA Patriot Act? It's done nothing but INappropriately WEAKEN the US and its Constitution...and this was precisely the intent.

[EFerrari]

52. The first mailing was on 9/17-18/ 2001 depending on who you believe.

So, my guess is the Patriot Act, not the vaccination $$$.

[Politicalboi]

65. And 9/11 gave them EVERYTHING they needed

All part of the Bush game. Just like the 2.3 Trillion dollars heist on 09/10/01. Look over there! We have just been attacked. Everything was possible due to 9/11. And it still stands today unless they investigate it again. Anthrax was mere childs play with this bunch.

[robertpaulsen]

167. Oh yeah. And conveniently written before 9/11.

The USA PATRIOT Act Was Planned Before 9/11
by Jennifer Van Bergen
Truthout.org
20 May, 2002

Many people do not know that the USA PATRIOT Act was already written and ready to go long before September 11th. Recent criticism of Bush's admission that he had received warnings only weeks before September 11th has made it more important to understand the origins of the USAPA.

The USA PATRIOT Act - the so-called "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001," a.k.a. the USAPA -- was enacted in the immediate wake of 9/11, riding a wave of fear that spread over the nation. This Act has caused much concern amongst civil rights advocates. The Administration, however, responded to such concerns by calling critics unpatriotic. Now, the White House has had a similar response to critics of Bush's recent admission of early warnings.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Friday: "I think that any time anybody suggests or implies to the American people that this president had specific information that could have prevented the attacks on our country on September 11, that crosses the lines."

Dick Cheney came out on Thursday with the statement that Democratic criticism of Bush's handling of pre-Sept. 11 terror warnings was "thoroughly irresponsible." Cheney added an ominous remark to his "Democratic friends ... that they need to be very cautious not to seek political advantage by making incendiary suggestions."

more...

http://www.globalissues.org/article/342/the-usa-patriot-act-was-planned-before-911

[get the red out]

31. Amazing

That they were ready to roll it out so soon after 911. Or not so amazing, maybe.

I worry more than a little what might happen to try to stop our current President's efforts to get the country back on the right track?

[onlyadream]

35. Because of the timing

I was suspicious from day one. Fast forward to when the suspect *killed* himself, I thought that the bush admin got to him (much like the DC Madame). Suicide is so convenient.

[get the red out]

47. DC Madame

The lady who swore in an interview that she would never comit suicide.

Yea, I guess she changed her mind on that, hugh? (snark)

[Mnemosyne]

58. And a hooker from the madame's stable hung

herself about a year prior to the DC madame's suicide, strangely enough.

[Politicalboi]

66. Yes she was ashamed

:rofl:

[dionysus]

105. nope, i don't

:thumbsup:

[hootinholler]

28. Thanks for posting this Robert! I wonder how this ties into the flasks that were off the books?

Can you say Rush to Judgment?

Can you say found a scapegoat? After the Hatfill fiasco my first instinct about Ivans was he was hounded literally to death.

There was recently an inventory ordered at Deitrick, not because some vials of nasties were missing, but because there were too many! It's really scary to me (Deitrick is around 4 miles form my domocile) that people were able to grow these bugs off the books. I wonder how many extras left the facility?

-Hoot

[EFerrari]

32. Scott Shane at NYTs reported that even of the ones on the books,

there was more than one flask in two buildings and two hundred people had access. :shrug:

[robertpaulsen]

43. You're welcome! Ivins=Patsy.

As far as Deitrick is concerned, I believe there were a number of threads around the time Ivins died pointing out the close proximity between that facility and Dick Cheney's driving route on the evening of 9/11. I'll try to find it when I can.

[EFerrari]

55. The place to look is New Jersey, not MD.

The mailing was done in Princeton, afaik.

This is a link to a sort of summary I wrote in August. It looks like time for an update.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/What-the-FBI-Knows-For-Br-by-Elizabeth-Ferrari-080812-743.html

[robertpaulsen]

79. Thanks for that, EFerrari.

You have done a fantastic job of research on this. If you look at the links I posted on post 77, many of those threads were started by or inspired by you. Keep it up!

:yourock:

[EFerrari]

81. This case tripped my triggers bigtime from the beginning!

Let's keep digging. :hi:

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

99. or

the envelopes (empty) were mailed and stamped in New Jersey. Especially worth considering is the Leahy letter. An empty unsealed envelope was postmarked to make it look like it's beginning point was Princeton. Then the envelope was separated and isolated somewhere along the route to DC.

Remember the Leahy letter ended up at a different Post Office? Maybe the anthrax was put in the envelope(s) in DC. The milled spores were supposedly so fine it would seem impossible to have been filled and driven and mailed and transported again without spores flying all over the eastern seaboard. Makes sense if you think about it.

[hootinholler]

146. Well Detrick is not that far from Raven Rock

Which is the current best guess as to the location that is undisclosed. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a shuttle service.

-Hoot

[rucognizant]

152. And....

Ft. Dietrich is just a short run up RT 270 from McLEan VA. Cheney's new home! Wondered why he didn't go back to Wyoming.

[tavalon]

158. Why in the world would Dick Cheney do his own dirty work?

It just doesn't seem his MO though he was a bit of a micromanager. I am sure it was ordered from the WH, but someone else surely pulled it off.

[robertpaulsen]

169. You're right, it's not his MO to have a "hands-on" approach.

But I'm wondering, and I admit it's very :tinfoilhat:, why was Cheney so paranoid that he contracted a lethal anthrax dose after 9/11:


Cheney Thought He Had Lethal Anthrax Dose
Source: ABC News


Scare Prompted Veep to Take Hard Line on Terror Suspects, New Book Contends

In the days after 9/11, when fears of another terrorist strike were at their peak, Vice President Dick Cheney was convinced that he had been subjected to a lethal dose of anthrax, according to a new book.

White House insiders from that white-knuckle time told author Jane Mayer, who authored "The Dark Side, The Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals," that the scare contributed to Cheney's insistence on hard-line tactics for fighting terror.

Mayer, a writer for the New Yorker, claims that the vice president became the driving force in pushing for tougher interrogation tactics that critics charge went over the legal line and constitute torture.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3395128


Probably not. I don't think it's likely. But the possibility Cheney oversaw the operation on a physical level does exist.

[Duende azul]

34. Dissident Voice: "New York Times Complicit in FBI Anthrax Coverup"

Perhaps interesting in this context

Link:
Dissident voice, Sheila Casey, February 26th, 2009

...
The FBI has never explained what became of this initial focus on the labs in Utah and Ohio. Instead, after the death of Fort Detrick anthrax researcher Bruce Ivins in July 2008, the FBI attempted to make the case that Ivins was the murderer and all other suspects had been cleared of suspicion.

Since Ivins’ death, the media have, with very few exceptions, passively swallowed the line dispensed by the FBI, and have acted as little more than stenographers in parroting the hollow arguments presented by the FBI that Ivins is guilty.

On December 12, 2001, The Baltimore Sun published a seminal article by Scott Shane that clearly laid out just how strong the evidence was against the Dugway Proving Ground in Utah. Subtitled “Organisms made at a military laboratory in Utah are genetically identical to those mailed to members of Congress,” Shane’s article also includes this eyebrow-raising line: “Scientists familiar with the anthrax program at Dugway described it to The Sun on the condition that they not be named.”

Apparently Shane has forgotten all that he reported seven years ago. Now with The New York Times, Shane’s latest piece, published January 4, 2009, raises troubling questions about the independence of The Times, and the memory hole that Shane must have used to shunt away all that he once knew about the case the FBI code-named Amerithrax

....

Didn´t know the source, perhaps some of you folks know if they are reliable.

[RufusTFirefly]

36. Honestly. Can you blame Shane for back-tracking?

Had he kept digging, he might've been the next one to "commit suicide."
Shane probably knows more than most that these aren't simply idle threats.

And you can bet that there would've been a story all ready to go about how Shane had been distraught.

[Duende azul]

57. You are right.

Given the seriousness of the matter it would be very wrong and arrogant to blame him.
His name wasn´t even familiar to me (Non-American here). In my perception the article was more about blaming the NYT as an institution. And given the role of the NYT covering up some of the crimes of the former admin that made sense to me. I didn´t focus on the author.

Just as hours ago researching a totally different subject I found the Dissident voice website and read that article. After all these years of mostly deafening silence about that subject I was interested. And moments later I saw this thread and thought it might be worth posting.

Don't know what to make out of it all but from the answers here I learned something new.

[EFerrari]

38. I emailed him about that article and he must have been getting a lot of flak

because he responded to me. It was a disappointment because the last round of reporting got *better* when he started working on it again. The Jan article was ridiculous.

[ljm2002]

39. I remember about a month or so after the attacks...

...the news came out that the anthrax supplies at Ames (the apparent source of the strain that was used) had been destroyed.

Now you know and I know, that given the gravity of the attacks and in the context of the 9/11 attacks, there is no way in hell that this should have been allowed.

And yet the powers that be just shrugged and said it was part of the regularly scheduled destruction of evid... er, lethal bacterial strains at the facility.

Right then and there I knew there was a coverup. So it is no surprise to learn this latest bit of information. Tragic for Ivins, though.

The corruption in our system is deep. There were other scientists who died mysteriously or suddenly "committed suicide" by jumping off bridges, or the second stories of apartment buildings or lab facilities, or slashing their wrists in the woods...

It's deep.

[glitch]

154. I remember that as well. Destroyed by orders of "someone" at the FBI

Did anyone ever get the name?

[mistertrickster]

40. Ivins was a weird-o. But I never could figure out how they knew he was the guy

without placing him at the postboxes on the dates in question.

Lots of loose ends that were never resolved.

Also, motive. What was his supposed to be?

[RufusTFirefly]

49. He was a mentally fragile patsy. And they hounded him to death.

Besides, you are asking sensible questions. How dare you. Didn't you get the memo?

Consume. Conform. Obey.

[NoName Left]

51. Ivins was eccentric by Joe Sixpack standards...Not a "weirdo".

Eccentricity is not unusual for brainiacs who specialize in esoteric subjects. Thank goodness they exist or else we'd be only one step up from the stone age. Maybe. A world full of nothing but knuckleheads like ourselves wouldn't be too advanced.

[EFerrari]

54. He was eccentric and probably bi-polar to a degree.

He wasn't a sociopath and there's not a shred of evidence that he was a mass murderer. It's cr@p.

[Demoiselle]

76. I think you're right. Poor man.

He was shamed and hounded to death. The socio/psychopath who did this is still walking around. Sociopaths feel no shame, and they don't kill themselves.

[EFerrari]

78. Exactly. n/t

[Politicalboi]

69. Probably the same way

That DNA from passengers from 9/11 can withstand all the heat and be identified but they can't indentify the plane. Just change the facts is all ya gotta do.

[EFerrari]

138. They needed someone and he seemed to have the skill set.

The FBI floated that he was in it so his program wouldn't be canceled, because he was a right wing Catholic against abortion, because he wanted attention from a sorority, because he was a loner, because he had a history of violence against women.

The trouble is, none of those things are true and they're demonstrably not true. But that didn't prevent the WaHo, the AP and the LA Times from spamming these frames all over the place.

[deminks]

41. Kicked, recommended, bookmarked, saved, memorized, emailed,

my only regret is that I can only recommend once.

[Festivito]

44. WHEN did he figure this out? WHY was it not determined earlier.

THIS wasn't determined in seven YEARS until now?

If it was determined a few years ago, then several FBI agents need to be brought up on charges of harassment and possibly manslaughter charges.

This stinks to high heaven.

[EFerrari]

53. FBI said that developing "new science" to reverse engineer spores

is what took so long. IT'S BULLSHIT. ALL OF IT. Their case against Bruce Ivins = NADA.

[Festivito]

74. With what professors at which Universities? Plenty to investigate.

This needs an investigation. We could put some people to work. Help the economy.

[EFerrari]

135. They put together a team of BushCo scientists.

Not one who doesn't work for the Feds buys this cr@pola.

[Muttocracy]

131. yep, and the science-ignorant press ate that up no problem. nt

[EFerrari]

134. So did Leahy's Senate Judiciary Committee. You'd think HE would be

more skeptical.

[Supersedeas]

173. who said they didn't figure it out? Former Fed Judge Mike Mukasey was pretty sure

[mfeher1971]

45. Paging Steven Hatfill.

You're wanted, the FBI's on line 1 for you.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. Have they checked Cheney? nt

[arcadian]

60. It doesn't matter, the governemnt has found Ivins guilty in the court of public opinion.

Even though the evidence is to the contrary and he didn't do it; he basically did it and perception is reality. The American public are incurious about such things, the main stream media won't report on these matters and the government will take a "no comment" approach. They painted him as the culprit, their work is done. This little story will be forgotten about.

[Uncle Joe]

64. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, robertpaulsen.

[leftstreet]

67. K&R

[Mr. Sparkle]

68. I wish they didnt say publicly that the spores didnt match and instead hastily look for the culprits

It's like giving the bad guys a clue on what evidence to destroy !!

[JackRiddler]

113. I beg to differ - it's necessary to speak publicly.

When they (the scientists) have their findings treated in a journal like Nature, then they (the investigators and prosecutors, if any honest ones are left working on this case) might feel some pressure. Keep it secret, then nothing gets done.

[Mr. Sparkle]

120. i dont mind the story, but i wish they didnt say publicly how they worked it out.

i'm sure the bad guys are trying to destroy any links they might have to the original powder.

[AntiFascist]

82. K&R, It is crucial to followup on this...

Ivins may have killed himself (or not?) simply because he knew he was the one to be used as a scapegoat. If individuals with certain large companies, working with the government, were really behind this, how can the truth be uncovered?

[davidwparker]

84. did it match the CIA's?

[MasonJar]

88. Rack up one more death to the Bush crime family. This poor man

was maligned to his death whether by himself or by one of the Bushista. Why was this test not run immediately? Oh, I know, it cleared Dr. Ivins. The FBI needs to find the true culprit and stop scapegoating people who have dedicated themselves to the good of our country. I'd lay even money that Cheney is behind this.

[EFerrari]

91. The FBI is totally compromised, as far as I can tell.

Their last argument was that the science would vindicate their case -- when we've all seen how BushCo beat down and censored science for their whole tenure.

Well, even after all of that manipulation, the science has NOT born out their fakery. :shrug:

[Cass]

90. I hate that this doesn't surprise me at all.

Maybe one day we'll know the truth but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[amborin]

93. Kristoff from ny times convinced me long ago that Hatfill did it....

Hatfill, the "harrassed" guy's story was just too strange and too many coincidences to be just coincidence....

such as:

the return address for one of the anthrax letters had the name of some elementary school....

guess what? the name of the elementary school was the very town in Rhodesia where Hatfill had lived.....

plus many, many more similar weird 'coincidences'

you can google Kristoff and Hatfill and find the ny times article....from 3 or so yrs ago

[EFerrari]

114. Hatfill was completely cleared, won 5million in damages and Kristof

had to apologize.

[amborin]

118. doesn't prove Hatfill didn't do it; imho, Hatfill was their man

and Senators Leahy and others also felt more than one culprit was involved

anyway, to repeat: the fact Hatfill was cleared and Kristoff had to apologize does not mean Hatfill did not do it

[EFerrari]

121. Hatfill was cleared. What is it about "cleared" that is unclear?

They smeared him just as they later would smear Dr. Ivins. Anthrax wasn't even Hatfill's area.

[amborin]

136. 'cleared'

at the time, i read extensively about the case....back when kristoff wrote on it.....

and when H was cleared, my memory is that this was b/c they could never find the hard physical evidence near his residence.....they drained the lake and so forth.....

but the circumstantial evidence against him was enormous and incriminating....

and, yes, H did work with anthrax

[EFerrari]

139. Hatfill's expertise was in infectious disease.

You might be interested in this:

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/huntinghatfill.html

[amborin]

174. that's

an interesting link, too much to read now, but i will later....but it looks as if it is trying to sanitize any negative views of hatfill....in that sense, it's editorializing.....copied from the daily standard

don't have time now, but if you enter the search term "hatfill and anthrax" in the ny times search window, you can find many articles from 2002-2009 on hatfill.....

hatfill took cipro (the *only* antibiotic that can deal with antrax infect) two days before hte letters were mailed.....

he was vaccinated against anthrax as well, and got a booster in 2002.....

could have had access to the strain of spore used.....

wrote something about anthrax wars in Rhodesia.....

etc......

[EFerrari]

176. I'm familiar with the Hatfill material. n/t

[Gamey]

94. Who's still surprised Bush needed to cement 9/11?

[flyarm]

160. Bingo , you win the prize! and remember American Airlines flt 587

that shortly thereafter went down in Rockaway..the entire tail structure of the aircraft fell off the aircraft.. ..so rare in History had that a tail failure and even partially ever fell off an aircraft , one such was a test flight of a military aircraft, i believe ( if memory is correct , it was in 1952 or 1954..Chuck Yeager..)

All these events in a very short period ..to scare the bee gee bee's out of the American people to make them willing to give up their constitution, of which has been chopped in pieces and still is..wake up America, you have been bamboozled and the new boss is no different than the old boss..to think otherwise is only to kid yourself!

Read Leo Strauss and understand his blue print for the NWO and see who was supposed to bring us to the NWO and who was to finish it off.

[Jefferson23]

97. Terribly tragic story, they wore this poor man down, the fucking bastards.

[varelse]

101. So...

now what?

A real investigation?

Or are we "looking forward, not back"?

:(

[Olney Blue]

102. I don't understand why the characterization of these spores is so hard.

[harmonicon]

104. in other news, bears shit in the woods

[chimpyisstillsatan]

106. and acetominophen poisoning isn't immediately fatal

suicide by tylenol #3. Yeah, and Colin Powell was holding a vial of deadly anthrax in the most important international gathering place with no personal protective equipment. Was I the only one who noticed that?

This stinks.

[JJ]

116. tylenol 3 contains codeine too

[chimpyisstillsatan]

151. Possible but unlikely

rat LD50 Acetomoniphen=1944 mg/kg, so 45800 mg will rapidly kill half of the 75kg men who take it very quickly (that's 152 pills for a 50% chance of rapid death). Mild toxicity begins at about 20 tablets, but again, until you get ten fold higher, but it's hepatic necrosis that takes weeks to kill you.

I found conflicting reports on human lethality.

Codeine rat oral LD50 =266 mg/kg or 19995 mg per 75 kg adult. That's 665 tylenol #3 tablets (considering the codeine alone. Tylenol#3 has 30 mg codeine per tablet)

1g IV doses were cited as lethal by some, but others clain 240 mg doses 4X per day were tolerated in volunteers.

Those are IV doses, so you pretty much have to double that due to liver metabolism (first pass effect). Assuming the former is correct, that's about 66 tablets. Doable I guess, but the risk of puking it all up, or having someone find you and give you narcan or pump your stomach seems pretty high, with the result being a lingering death from liver failure. A scientist would know that.

Lab scientists have much easier and surer methods at their disposal. A teaspoon of sodium azide in your coffee would do it (cyanide poisoning is instantly fatal).

So it's possible, but to me unlikely that he offed himself with tylenol/codeine. "Possible but unlikely" summarizes the whole anthrax story.

[Supersedeas]

108. Michael Mukasey has some ANSWERING to do -- he INSISTED that the case be closed!!

[EFerrari]

115. So did Mueller when he testified to Leahy's committee. The science

was going to seal it . . .

[AntiFascist]

109. Weaponized anthrax involves the use of "polymerized glass"...

could Iron and Tin be used in the preparation of polymerized glass? I'm not a chemist, but according to this patent, perhaps it can:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4087511.html

Glasses prepared by the melting of stoichiometric compounds

...

1. A method of preparing a water-insoluble chemically durable glass composition from a melt of a compound of the formula M(Ha Xb Oc)d
wherein M is a metal of the group consisting of aluminum, zinc, cadmium, iron, tin, manganese, lead, nickel, cobalt, gallium and indium and the alkaline earth metals beryllium, magnesium, calcium, strontium and barium;....

[autorank]

110. Superb robertpaulson. A question k*r

Imho, it would have been reasonable to insist on this type of test prior to charging the deceased.

Am I being unreasonable?

[robertpaulsen]

165. Not unreasonable at all.

It was all part of a "strategy of tension" to tighten the noose around a patsy, figuratively for certain, literally most probably.

[autorank]

175. So the drove him mad without being thorough enough to have third part y testing.

Thanks!

I was struck by the multiple witnesses who said law enforcement would pull up to his care and shout at him and other
wise harass him in public. I can't imagine such a thing and I'm sure he couldn't either.

What a case.

[EFerrari]

177. They co-opted Duley. Ivins was a sitting duck for these pricks. n/t

[Norrin Radd]

112. I was wondering what happened to this story.

[defendandprotect]

117. Imagine the families of these "suicides" are quite intimidated by all ...

that goes on in these cases and perhaps more . . . ???

[lumberjack_jeff]

119. Oops. n/t

[suffragette]

122. "Rush to Judgment" is apt

The FBI tried their hardest to slam the door shut on this case, but it keeps swinging back ajar.

[Nevernose]

124. I generally hate conspiracy theories

But there's no way in hell a PhD microbiologist misspelled the word "penicillin."

[EFerrari]

128. I hate the FBI's conspiracy theory. It's full of holes. n/t

[Doctor_J]

126. This was a hoax from Day 1. Some Rove operative tried to kill Leahy & Daschle

and no series inquiry was ever conducted. Hopefully Holder will pursue the killers.

[defendandprotect]

163. Not only to kill Leahy & Dashle, but to shut the Congress/government down for months--!!!

Right after 9/11/MIHOP and the suspect 2000 election!!!

[Muttocracy]

127. I knew it! When those reports came out, it was all circumstantial with vague DNA info

that didn't stand up to basic logic.

[scrinmaster]

130. So they set all this up and didn't use the "plant" the same anthrax in the flask?

Maybe Ivins had more than one source, maybe it was someone else, maybe we can all jump to the conclusion that Bush mailed the anthrax out personally.

[Gregorian]

133. While we're at it, I would like to mention Dr. Kelly.

Another "suicide" related to Bush's illegal invasion. I mention it because of the similarities.

[EFerrari]

140. It's a measure of how sold out we are that any of us could trust FBI

when it told us to WAIT FOR BUSH SCIENCE in the first place.

Because that's what they did, isn't it?

We've sat here and watched how BushCo undermined and censored government scientists for eight years at every step.

But somehow, when FBI said, wait for our nifty new SCIENCE, that was even remotely believable? :shrug:

[The abyss]

170. In my opinion -

Eferrai, has wrapped up the best of the best commentaries on what has always been “wrong” with this case.

This one is nailed shut like a coffin!

They lied - they continue to lie.

Wake UP!!

Edit, can't spell :)

[No Elephants]

142. Appoint a special prosecutor already. Forget House and Senate investigations and Commissions.

[Rhiannon12866]

144. I agree...

There is so much that we never have had answers for... :shrug::-(

[TWiley]

143. What about the Biologist / Right Wing Extremest who

What about the Biologist / Right Wing Extremest who actually worked at the labratory the created the Anthrax? He was caught with a copy of the "Turner Diaries" (book Mc Viegh read) and the microbiology equipment necessary to safely handle Anthrax. Also, he was captured on a plane flight.

If memory serves, he was almost immediately released.

Now, why suspect a right wing extremist / biologist in an anthrax attack against two liberals?

[theEmpireNeverEnded]

153. Philip Zack

"Dr. Philip Zack had the means, access to weaponized anthrax, exhibited hostile behaviours towards Dr. Ayaad Assaad, his colleague, and was caught on a security video two months after being fired entering without authorization a lab where anthrax samples went missing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zack

[TWiley]

161. EXACTLY ! And meanwhile, a hostile president and his party attack dissenters.

Then, the FBI fumbled a major ball on this one.

Remember the FBI agent who royally fumbled the 911 attack information concerning flight training and those exact terrorists involved?

He got a fucking congressional medal of honor didnt he?

[RufusTFirefly]

155. And what about these guys? Also vindicated

The FBI affidavit detailing the case against Harris says he claims to be an officer in the Idaho-based white supremacist group Aryan Nations.

Mark Potok, a spokesman for the Southern Poverty Law Center, a national watchdog group that monitors extremist groups, told The New York Times that Harris traveled around the country, "meeting with extremist anti-government groups and inoculating them against anthrax."

Harris was previously given probation after pleading guilty to illegally obtaining bubonic plague bacteria through the mail in 1995.

Sources: Substance seized near Las Vegas non-lethal anthrax

[dipsydoodle]

145. 100

and rightly deserved.

[peace13]

157. My heart goes out to the scientist who lost his life in this fiasco.

Whether he was killed or driven to suicide it is all very sad. He is one of the silent heroes who fell at the hands of the * regime.

[defendandprotect]

164. Thank you -- really like this story!!