Mugabe wants Zimbabwe's white farmers out

[Swede]

Source: Associated Press

"Land distribution will continue. It will not stop," Mugabe said. "The few remaining white farmers should quickly vacate their farms as they have no place there."

Mugabe was capitalizing on what has long been a sensitive issue in Zimbabwe and other nations in the region: the unjust division of land between whites and blacks that is a legacy of colonialism and white minority rule. Dozens of the several hundred white farmers left in Zimbabwe are currently challenging the right of its government to confiscate their land before a regional tribunal of Africa judges.



Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jd_JZmhdw6XWClfpenWt9g-dqNNAD96KMQP00

[WriteDown]

1. This sounds familiar nt.

[iandhr]

2. Look for Tsvangirai and other people in his party

to disappear

[Posteritatis]

4. Well, they tried to get rid of one of Tsvangirai's cabinet ministers already

And the 'power-sharing deal' is a joke if you look at the portfolios each side's cabinet got.

[WriteDown]

5. I'm sure Tsvangirai is working with.....

the colonialists. :sarcasm:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

97. the only one working with the "colonialists" is Mugabe

The old flag wasn't at the bottom of the pole when Mugabe went into business with the Rhodesian elite, Mugabe's favored whites have even been on the receiving end of land reform. But that isn't the story the Robert Mugabe Fan Club wants to hear about.

[Mudoria]

3. I guess he wants whatever little agriculture that still remains

to completely disappear.

[antinano]

32. That's almost racist

The fact that these natives are alive for the past thousands of years, shows that these natives have farmed their lands for that period of time. Agriculture was not invented in Britain alone and experience is not in the few white farmers in Zimbabwe. The expansion of the Bantu from central Congo over the past thousand of years to other parts of Africa was a result developing tools to cultivate and farm lands. If anything, imperialism and sense of entitlement to the land of others killed whatever indigenous agricultural knowledge they had.

[Lost in CT]

42. Well it is accurate for the here and know.

Whatever knowledge their distant ancestors may have possed is irrelevant. The current cronies and "War Veterans" occupying farms simply have no business farming.

The resulting mass starvation is certainly proof of this.

[antinano]

59. That's even more insensitive

How did we get to the here and now? Yet you accuse the natives of not knowing how to farm and hence the British should perpetually claim ownership to their lands? You are justifying colonialism based on the after effects of colonialism itself?

[Igel]

69. I keep trying to tell my son that just because something

isn't the way he wants it doesn't mean it's utterly wrong. There's often a middle that he's excluding.

Let's consider your first post: The natives are immigrants, but rather old ones; they've displaced the folk that were there before--assimilating some, but the blacks in Zimbabwe don't much pattern with the Khoe-San that were there before them in terms of physical traits. They either wiped them out or swamped them demographically.

I'd also note that while linguists speak of "Bantus", in some circles I've heard it described as an intrinsically racist term. (Granted, there is no such thing as an "intrinisically racist term" since no term has any intrinsic meaning, but we'll let the entire form-meaning distinction slide here.)

Let's also consider that one very large crop in Zimbabwe is that ancient African grain, maize. The Bantu Expansion probably didn't dwell on the use of maize all that much. (Note that the lack of nixtimalization even made maize a very bad grain for subsistence use.)

The problem is that the population of Zimbabwe is high, possibly higher than previous levels of agriculture that the Bantu-speakers, by definition, practiced would allow. Population increases to meet demand; with higher supply, even deducting exports, there was a fair amount of population growth. Of course, there are indigenous means of reducing population, so perhaps we should encourage that--interethnic fighting, starvation, disease. All, indigenous practices sometimes suck, don't they?

There's also the very ethics of communalism--granted, it's an indigenous practice. But then again, slavery was fairly well rooted in some white cultures in the 1700s, and slavery (both black and white) was perfectly indigenous to many Muslim cultures for centuries before that. Communalism--with chattel slavery as but one extreme version--sucks. Yet some find ways to justify it by saying it's an indigenous practice. As though all indigenous practices were great and glorious things. Most of the white farmers in Zimbabwe were not responsible for expropriation of the land; in fact, often it wasn't even their families. But they have, and aren't indigenous, and there are those who have not and are indigenous, so all we need is communalism of some sort to justify cleansing the land of the white plague. Apparently. But I've always thought that communalism sucks, indigenous practice or no.

It takes specialized knowledge to run a large modern farm. We've seen what traditional, indigenous practices have gotten: Near starvation, cronyism, tribalism. Rah-rah, let's hear it for traditional, indigenous practices. Perhaps some of the less liberal traditional American and European practices can make a revival. Let's hope not.

[antinano]

71. A great and informative post BUT

The debate must go on....

YOU: "Let's consider your first post: The natives are immigrants, but rather old ones; they've displaced the folk that were there before--assimilating some, but the blacks in Zimbabwe don't much pattern with the Khoe-San that were there before them in terms of physical traits. They either wiped them out or swamped them demographically."

I: Apples and oranges. There is no evidence that Khoi-Sans pattern of movement towards the southern tip of Africa was an escape from Bantu's anymore than the migration of humans to Arabia was an escape from other humans in Ethiopia. Furthermore, Khoi-Sans have access to large areas of land for which they developed a culture of hunting. The natives in Zimbabwe had no access to any land to even hunt, as they were displaced entirely, and made to work for farms that produced crops mainly for export.

YOU: "The problem is that the population of Zimbabwe is high, possibly higher than previous levels of agriculture that the Bantu-speakers, by definition, practiced would allow. Population increases to meet demand; with higher supply, even deducting exports, there was a fair amount of population growth."

I: Who says their agricultural system was stagnant? You are speaking of an evolving indigenous agricultural system that was arrested with the arrival of the British, and in it's stead, a Western agricultural system was implemented. Who says the necessity of meeting population growth would not have been a source innovation for an indigenous equivalent industrialization of their own agricultural systems? Or is inventiveness a faculty found in certain kinds of people only?

YOU: "Of course, there are indigenous means of reducing population, so perhaps we should encourage that--interethnic fighting, starvation, disease. All, indigenous practices sometimes suck, don't they?"

I: You are taking a nose dive into the deep end. You assume too much or shall I say too little of their indigenous methods and views.

YOU: "It takes specialized knowledge to run a large modern farm. We've seen what traditional, indigenous practices have gotten: Near starvation, cronyism, tribalism. Rah-rah, let's hear it for traditional, indigenous practices. Perhaps some of the less liberal traditional American and European practices can make a revival. Let's hope not."

I: Mugabe's laws, police, soldiers are all British structures. Starvation is the result of poor implementation of these British structures (in addition to economic sanctions). THEIR TRADITIONAL SYSTEMS have not had an influence in the genesis of starvation in their society as most have been displaced by colonial ways of living. Perhaps speaking of their traditional systems, we need to give them a chance?

[Critters2]

70. Indeed, the Shona people were cultivating corn and beef,

both staples of the Zim diet, for thousands of years. Yes, colonialism did take the land from the people. After the war, though, those whites who stayed had fairly good relations with the majority population. They employed Shona, Ndebele, Ndau and other indigenous peoples on those farms, and many indigenous people engaged in subsistence agriculture on their own lands. Zimbabwe was a model of civil government, successful agriculture, and a healthy overall economy.

Then, opposition rose to Mugabe's one party rule. To consolidate power, he chased whites off the land, ridding thousands of Bantu people of gainful employment in the process, and handed that land to his cronies from Harare, who had neither knowledge of, nor interest in farming.

If Mugabe had distributed the land to Bantu people who had been working (and in most cases living) on that land, your points would be accurate. But he gave the land to people who let it lie fallow or fall to ruin. And in the process, people starved.

Even in Africa, food doesn't grow if someone isn't cultivating it. So, land should be given to farmers...white farmers, black farmers, makes no difference. But land that is not being cultivated does not grow food. Ask the people of Zimbabwe.

[antinano]

75. The Problem with Mugabe

Indeed is the fact that his land grab was poorly thought out and implemented.

[Codeine]

78. Corn?

You mean some other cereal grain, surely. Corn (maize) is a New World crop.

[Critters2]

79. True. Before the introduction of maize in the late 19th C, sadza,

the staple food of Zimbabwe, was made of millet sometimes mixed with sorghum. Once corn was introduced, it quickly became popular. But millet and sorghum were cultivated long before Europeans arrived. There were containers of millet found in the Great Zimbabwe ruins, which date from 600 AD. Cultivation of grain and cattle has long been a part of Shona culture.

[Posteritatis]

92. "Corn" and "wheat" are often used interchangeably (nt)

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

85. Black farmers have also been run off their land

While the western media is most concerned with the Rhodesians - virtually all of the Black commercial farmers have been wiped out too. Mugabe is obsessively paranoid about the indigenous bourgeoisie and began to lash out at them even before the Rhodesians.

[tanngrisnir3]

86. There are no more Rhodesians.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

89. and what do you suggest calling them?

[tanngrisnir3]

91. Well, since they're citizens of Zimbabwe, and Rhodesian doesn't exist...

it would make sense to call them Zimbabweans.

Really, this isn't all that difficult.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

93. When is the last time you bumped into an anglo-saxon?

Some anachronistic language can still describe a group of people, appropriately or inappropriately. Try that logic in the regions of Italy and Germany and see what sort of reception you get.

[tanngrisnir3]

94. What are you talking about? Anachronistic is using the term 'Rhodesian'

and it's inaccurate and inappropriate because it doesn't apply to the white farmers of Zimbabwe.

You're contradicting yourself.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

95. and how many ethnic colloquialisms aren't anachronistic?

Everyone calls them Rhodesians, everyone knows what it means and nobody is too upset by it.

[barb162]

96. What if Canada said "we're going to run the blacks out." Sounds racist

to me. You have a valid point here, but running the whites out of Zimbabwe is racist too especially if they've been there for generations, right?

[Kittycat]

6. How is he still in power?

[Taverner]

11. Iron Fist nt

[DetlefK]

7. Problem: The land is redistributed to people without agricultural experience -> famine

Let's say, you get a piece of land and want to grow plants for food.

Do you have means to transport your goods, like a tractor?
Do you have decent tools, like a good plow?
Do you have a regular water source?
Do you know, when to seed what and how (how deep, distance between the plants...)?
Do you know, which plants grow good in this soil and which don't?

How much food will you get out of this land in the first few years, compared to the former owner?

[conspirator]

8. I am not defending mugabe, but according to your logic we should just hand over

all the fertil land on earth to monsanto. They are the most productive.

[hack89]

9. There are many productive family farms

so I don't see your point. The issue is that it takes knowledge and experience to run a farm. The new land owners in Zimbabwe have neither. Therefore people will starve.

[conspirator]

13. New land owners can be trained to be farmers. Ya know, it's no rocket science

"They don't know how to do it". As in, they are savages. That's the excuse that imperialists used and still use, to steal the land and resources from native tribes.

[hack89]

14. In the meantime millions starve

Are you really that clueless to what is happening in Zimbabwe? I could understand if there was someone actually training these new "farmers" but that is not the case. Mugabe is giving land to his cronies and sycophants while deliberately killing and starving those who oppose him.

[conspirator]

46. This reply goes to hack89 and ALL the people bellow who evaded the point being discussed

I am NOT defending Mugabe's shitty land reform. I was replying to DetlefK. My point is: just because the first years will be difficult, while training new farmers, is not a reason not to make a good land reform (which is not the case of Mugabe's plan).
Independence requires sacrifice.

[NickB79]

83. Is there any evidence that new farmers ARE being trained, though?

This has been going on for several YEARS now, and it is worse now than ever with regard to the food situation in Zimbabwe. I have seen no evidence that the Mugabe government is actually engaging in agricultural training and education for the new landowners that are taking over the former white-run land.

[NashVegas]

77. The Planet Won't Support Us All, Anyway

I know it's callous, but until we face the oncoming tragedy ...

[DetlefK]

15. Okay, just imagine you get a batch of land from the farmer just outside your town.

Here's land. Make food.

Do you know how to cultivate tomatoes, potatoes, wheat?
How many harvesting seasons will it take until you figure it out?

And what about the people that used to buy the farmers food? What will they eat while you are experimenting?

[conspirator]

44. You are exactly where I want you. Why is the knowledge not made open source?

It's all about corporate greed. The hypocrisy resides in the fact that imperialist countries want to continue to exploit Africa at the same time keeping them in technological dark ages, so that they cannot claim independence over their own resources.
They spend money in aid, sending tons of food, instead of giving scholarships so that native farmers can study food technology.
They give fish instead of teaching how to fish. It is still a colonialist mentality.

[Lost in CT]

80. farming to feed yourself is hard... farming to feed a nation is something else entirely

It is like the difference between homeschooling your own children and having 7 classes with 210 different students everyday.

It is a completely different skill set.

Most native Zimbabweans simply don't know how to farm commercially... and don;t feel that this is a racist attack. Most Americans don't know how to either.

[ohio2007]

18. But 'Robbie' gives the land to his cronies and family members.

let the population hunt and gather what they may find on the land of the new owners of redistributed private property.
I heard an NPR spot last week that the remaining "white" farmers have stopped growing produce and are growing landscaping sod instead. People are stealing produce nightly grown on these last remaining "white" farms. I'm sure the "black" farmers share the same horror stories.

[rpannier]

19. Farming is alot more difficult than you make it seem to be

The majority of the land he gave to his supporters produces nothing and the country starves.
Your Mugabe-parrot of imperialists shows no understanding of what is going on there.

[Critters2]

20. Driving out the people who could train them won't help.

This has happened before, with disastrous consequences.

[Critters2]

21. Mugabe gives the land to his cronies, not to people who know how,

or even want to farm it. He's the one stealing land that could be used wisely. When I was in Zimbabwe in the early 90's, it was referred to as "the breadbasket of Africa", and was a gross exporter of food. Then Mugabe started "land reform". Next came the famine.

No supporter of Mugabe is a friend to the Zim people.

[MrsMatt]

45. Wow - it's obvious you have no agricultural experience

to exhibit that degree of ignorance about farming.

It's a lot harder than you think to be a SUCCESS at farming.

[conspirator]

47. In Africa food grows in trees. You are the ignorant. How many years have you lived in Africa?

I have 5 years of Mozambique, and I saw small farmers, with a ridiculously small piece of land producing enough to feed large families and still having surplus to sell in the market. Again let me emphasize that I am not saying that mugabe reform is any good.
Because he is simply replacing rich farmers for other rich farmers, not by small farmers.

[MrsMatt]

53. I was referring to your glib "Ya know, it's not rocket science" comment

Perhaps you don't understand that agriculture is science based - it's not just a matter of putting seeds into the ground. American farmers today frequently have a college degrees in agronomy, animal science, soil science, etc.

I grew up on a small farm (160 acres) so I think I have a small understanding about the level of knowlege and commitment it takes. My dad worked hard to provide his family with a good life, and he was a damned good farmer who demonstrated great respect for the land and his livestock.

Perhaps I am ignorant of African agronomy practices, but you're "seeing" is not the equivalent of you're doing - unless you have had direct experience in growing crops in Mozambique, I'm not about to take your word for how easy it is for the "food to grow on trees."

It takes knowledge to farm. When land is taken from those who have the knowlege, and given to those who do not, people starve.

[conspirator]

72. Of course proper agronomy requires college studies, it's an engineering like any other

But what I am saying is that small farmers don't need 100% intense productivity like monsanto, so they don't need state of the art science to grow crops.
By "food grows on trees" I mean literally. Most tropical climates have crops 3 times a year, fruits are rich in protein an almost complete meals. With a small backyard with chickens and a few palm trees, you are self suficient.
Even with 18th century technology you can have a decent food output in fertil african land.

[Critters2]

64. He's not replacing them with farmers at all.

That was the problem the first time he pulled this...the land went to his cronies, most of whom were from Harare, had never farmed, and had no interest in farming. It led to famine. It'll be worse this time.

[Prometheus Bound]

40. I can't believe you wrote that. Where do you get such ideas?

It's not just whites who know how to farm. Over 60% of the population is involved in agriculture and has been for a long long time. The communal farms were always the ones that produced the food. The white-owned farms produced crops for export- tobacco, flowers, cotton and such. While it's true cereal-crop production is down, the reasons are complex -- the collapse of the fertiliser industry (because of the disruption in commercial farming), fucked up transportation system, late delivery of seeds and fertiliser, when available, lack of credit and climate change (drought).

[hack89]

49. The white farms are not going to black farmers

they are going to cronies and political hacks. Mugabe does not care if that leads to starvation. That's my only point.

[antinano]

30. That's almost racist

So how did those natives survive for thousands of years without the British Farmers, without agriculture? I would assume whatever experience they had over thousands of years was killed off by a European sense of entitlement to the African lands!

[Doctor Cynic]

33. Given their current population density, they cannot feed themselves just by hunting.

Now they just need to adapt to agriculture. Life changes.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tanngrisnir3]

43. So you admit that you know nothing about modern agriculture and...

the scale that is necessary to feed the population densities currently in Zimbabwe. If they returned to the agricultural methods that they used before Western techniques and technologies were brought in, there would be starvation on a greater scale then there is now.

Those 'British' people you're talking about are also citizens of Zimbabwe.

[conspirator]

50. "Those 'British' people you're talking about are also citizens of Zimbabwe" ...

who inherited the largest percentage of fertil land in the country, somehow. That land was stolen by massacre and military conquer.
If they are citizens they have to respect and defend the interest of native Zimbabwe farmers.

The british and german people that live in South Africa are also citizens of South Africa. By your line of thought we should hand all the land there to a minority of white rich, and go back to the apartheid.

[tanngrisnir3]

51. They were also permitted to keep the land by Mugabe, who used massacres...

and terror to create the country. There are no innocents in this picture.

If they are citizens they have to respect and defend the interest of native Zimbabwe farmers.

Since it seems you missed this rather salient point, the whites there are native Zimbabwean farmers as well.

The british and german people that live in South Africa are also citizens of South Africa.

No, British people are English citizens, and Germans are citizens of Germany.


By your line of thought we should hand all the land there to a minority of white rich, and go back to the apartheid.

What bullshit. I've stated nothing even remotely close to that, and you're the only one bringing that subject up.

[Shakespeare]

54. So I can assume you'll be packing up to leave the US soon?

Because, by your logic....

[antinano]

57. By your own logic...

We should not acknowledge the truth simply because we will all have to pack and leave too? How far advanced our morality is relative to the rest of the world. We are the last best hope of human morality!

[Shakespeare]

60. Not at all. I'm simply pointing out how utterly disconnected from the realm of the possible....

...your suggestion is.

[XemaSab]

98. Simple yes or no question:

Do you support restoration of the buffalo, and turning the Great Plains of the US over to buffalo hunting tribes? :shrug:

[antinano]

56. Western Agriculture is NOT equal to Modern

YOU: "the scale that is necessary to feed the population densities currently in Zimbabwe."

I: What's the current population density of Zimbabwe, and what is the magic number beyond which Western agriculture is needed? That's not a good excuse for continued presence. Assuming there is a need for industrial level agricultural production, are there no other means of achieving this end without having British people physically present on the land?


YOU: "If they returned to the agricultural methods that they used before Western techniques and technologies were brought in, there would be starvation on a greater scale then there is now."

I: On what do you base your claims? They were not starving before our arrival!

YOU: "Those 'British' people you're talking about are also citizens of Zimbabwe."

I: Then they should share their 98% land possession with other Zimbabweans. After all, they are all the same people with the same capabilities.

[panzerfaust]

48. If it is now right to take the land

... of people who are white, simply because they are white, and those in power are black; then the obverse is just as true.

Myself, I do not think that taking, or giving, anything on the simple basis of race, religion, or political affiliation is ethical.

This was "the breadbasket of Africa". White farmers, who did hold the land because of colonialism, did have their land taken and given to BigBob's supporters - the majority of whom know no more of farming that I do. The result has been that BigBob stayed in power, agricultural output crashed, and cholera and starvation now stalk the land.

Had BigBob given the land to FARMERS (be they black or white) this would not have happened, and that should have been the point of land-reform (which was truly needed).

At this point to claim the "land-reform" is anything other than a mechanism for BigBob to stay in power is naive beyond belief.

[tanngrisnir3]

52. I'll thank you not to use actual history, reason and logic in your posts, Sir!

They clarify the issues entirely too much, and leave no room whatsoever for emotional misrepresentation of the past and present.

[Critters2]

65. I agree. Logic and reason have no place on the interwebs!

Imagine if EVERYONE started making cogent arguments. Where's the fun in that?!

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tanngrisnir3]

84. No, it showed neither one.

[UndertheOcean]

10. Mugabee's IQ is huge

[Freddie Stubbs]

100. But that is only due to inflation

;)

[Faygo Kid]

12. FReeper: "American (sic) has its own Mugabe problem, doesn’t it?"

No, they aren't racists over there, right?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2196358/posts

Read it and weep, but know about who they are and what they believe. Yuck.

[Critters2]

22. This one is just stunning:

To: knighthawk

Isn’t it interesting — how blacks worldwide are rewarding the largess, contributions and charity of white folks for all they have done?

A case can be made - that black’s behavior worldwide has not justified the expense and sacrifices made in their behalf...

Many simply can’t shake off the hate whitey or lazy thieving slave mentality.

16 posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:36:25 PM by river rat (Semper Fi - You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies>


:wow:

[QC]

16. Mugabe used to have a small but vocal fan club on DU.

They've been pretty scarce lately, though.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Scary isn't it

[QC]

55. Yes, it is.

And it looks like they have been replaced by some new fans.

[antinano]

31. Well, taking black lands from whites

Isn't exactly going to keep a fan club on a majority white site would it? Liberal or conservative, Chavez's antics is much a easier bitter pill to swallow, as he does not provoke the racial sensitivities we have in this country.

[QC]

41. Actually, that was what the fan club most loved.

Oh how they would go on and on about Mugabe's "land reform." Even the fact that he was giving the "reformed" land to his cronies didn't stop them.

I think it was Mugabe's sheer murderousness that finally got to them, much like the way many American communists finally stopped defending Stalin when it was no longer possible to deny the show trials and purges.

[antinano]

61. What about you?

Don't they have the right to their own lands? You probably are all up in arms about invading a sovereign nation like Iraq. However that liberal view is all lost when we change the natives of the country from brown to black!

[QC]

63. Me? I think you assume far too much about people you don't know.

As for land reform, I strongly support it, but Mugabe is not doing land reform.

He is just doing old-fashioned cronyism of the sort that probably outrages you when it involves Dick Cheney and Halliburton but is suddenly OK if we just change the skin color of the cronies. (See what it's like to be accused of racism by someone who knows nothing about you?)

[slackmaster]

82. What color is black land?

Just curious how you can tell the difference between black land and other land.

[hughee99]

90. If you turn it over to cronies instead of those with farming experience

It's not green.

[slackmaster]

99. Yes, it becomes brown

:argh:

[Lost in CT]

58. They have all moved over to the Chavez camp...

As witnessed to the defense of some of his ruinous policies.

[ohio2007]

17. Everybody in Zimbabwe is a BILLIONAIRE

lifes gotta be sweet


lol

[Posteritatis]

25. Quadrillionaire or quintillionaire these days, I think

The hyperinflation rate has itself been hyperinflating. I saw their currency charted as an exponential rise on a logarithimic scale a few months ago, which I can't really comprehend.

[Turbineguy]

23. Mugabe

is what Ayn Rand was talking about when she talked about "looters"

[The abyss]

26. On an another site, some time back, I used to read about this situation.

I am surprised that there could be many white land owners left.

The old Ian Smith government has been so long gone…

Does anyone really believe this nonsense?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

88. Most of them don't have anywhere to go

Although Mugabe does have a "special relationship" with the old guard that the DU Robert Mugabe Fan Club really doesn't like talking about, the average Rhodesian is basically fucked, changes to British citizenship laws in the 1980's slammed that door shut for those many generations removed, even those who do have a claim on British citizenship have had their personal wealth destroyed and can't afford to leave.

The displaced Rhodesians are basically collectively drinking and qualuding themselves to death.

They could go be poor in South Africa, where despite everything most places in Zimbabwe are still safer from a crime perspective.

The most ironic thing about Zimbabwe is come his death Ian Smith had reemerged as a popular figure in the country, which he himself thought was bizarre.

[Diclotican]

27. Swede

Swede

Th big problem here, is not the land reform them self, but rather that Mugabe are using the land reform, to help his cronies, and allies in Africa to get big land, in the place where once the white farmers was doing the job.. If the reforms had given the small farmers, a new start, then it might have been been seen as just.. Many white farmers did understand that the issue about land was a issue that had to be solved.. But not in the way that Mugabe did it.. For the most part the white farmers of Zimbabwe understands and was using resources to make it better for the native people. Many of the bigger farmers had schools, medical clinic and so one, where everyone regardless of if they have the possibility to pay for it or not, could get medical help. It was not as the white owners was sitting over a group of powerless, and lawless group of blacks..

But, as the story goes, a country who once until the "reforms" was been given the name breadbasket of Africa, are now a country where more than half the population is starving, and where the inflation are going true the roof.. The economy is more or less dead, and for the most part the population are without work, and without hope of ever getting a job. If you are not lucky enough to have connection to the regime then...

What mr Mugabe have been doing is ruining his country.. If he had stepped down in the early 1990s, he and the work he had been doing in the 1980s to liberate the country from the white minority and to build a democratic country. He would been seen as one of the greatest president in Africa ever.. Today he is been seen as a dictator, and a very stupid person, who have ruined a country who had all possibility to be a rather prosperous country in the future.. It was necessary to reform the biggest land owners, but not at this scale, and not with this consequenses... It is just disgusting to se this old man sitting and eating cake, when you know that millions his fellow country men have less than half of what he is stuffing his stomach with this day, in a weeks rations..

And who know what Will happened to this country the day Mr Mugabe is dead... When the power vacuum is coming, and the rest of the regime is going apart...

Diclotican

[Swede]

28. I can't disagree with anything in your post.

Power corrupts,as they say.

[Diclotican]

36. Swede

Swede

So true, power corrupt.. And all power, corrupt totaly.. The best had been that mr Mugabe had steped down many year ago.. Then he might have been a hero compared to many other leaders in Africa..

Diclotican

[Critters2]

66. It's true. When I was there in '93, he was held in high esteem.

The country was peaceful and prosperous. An amazing contrast to its neighbors, Mozambique and Angola, but Zimbabwe had plentiful food, good race relations, and a stable, if not altogether democratic government.

Things have gotten so bad. One pastor I stayed with while there disappeared late last spring and has not been heard from again. Another was beaten badly but released (literally dumped on his doorstep) as a warning to other Mugabe critics.

Zimbabwe has fallen so far. It's just heartbreaking.

You're right. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It's all so sad.

[Diclotican]

74. Critters2

Critters2

Have never been in the country myself, but I do know some who have been there... And I know that Zimbabwe was one of the better country in the area we are talking about here.. Many country are using this type of violence to warn critics what will become if they was to start critic the regime.. Beat the hell out of them, and then dump the person on the doorstep.. It is more economical than to just them them disappear all together..

Very sad about your friend the Pastor. I am afraid he might not be alive today, or he might be in some prison somewhere if he is Lucky.. The regime of mr Mugabe have going from decent enough, to really, really bad and the country is more or less in ruin this days...

Zimbabwe have fallen great since the early 1990s, very sad and it Will take the country decades to rebuild up to the level it was before Mugabe decided to play hard with the white farmers... And this type of behavior is something that ALSO have poisoned relationship between white farmers in Mozambique, South Africa and other parts also. Because it is many white farmers, who own large parts of the land who is been farmed.. And it is many black who want a land to farm on their own. But they do not have the knowledge or the economical power to do so. And as everything goes, in this economical world of today, it Will be very easy for many african government to blame the economical problems on the white farmers.. And to use them at scapegoats to please their population.. Even if you just trow the white farmers out, you might not get a decent life all toghter.. Many white farmers in South Africa have been fighting squatters, and even waged more or less war against thief's who want to scare them out of their land.. Even if the land is documented to be their for many year...

And many zimwabwen have also been runing to South Afrika and other country, becouse they belive they can get a more decent life there. And that alone is making many in South Africa less willing to help their friends north of the border.. Imemploiment in South Africa are high as it is, and with the new refuges it is harder to get a work in South Africa than before... So this have lot of thing long outside Zimwabwe itself..

Diclotican

[Titonwan]

29. I want that done here!

The French tried to conquer my land and they couldn't, so they sold it to Jefferson in the Louisiana Purchase.
Mmmmmm.... we didn't get the Memo. My people, the Chickasaw Nation controlled all the lower Mississippi, so as of now
all white people in States that touch the river from Louisiana to Missouri have thirty days to leave. You've been warned.
Don't let the door hit ya where the great spirit split ya. Hee ya! (lol)

[Critters2]

67. You don't want it done the way Mugabe's doing it....giving land to his cronies

as rewards for their abuse of the people, and as a way to keep him in power. This is less akin to a fair and equitable distribution of land, and more like Dick Cheney making sure Halliburton gets its piece of the pie.

Land reform=good

Mugabe land reform=evil in the extreme

[Coes]

34. famine and cholera in Zimbabwe

Zimbabwe used to be an exporter of food, now it's an importer. That won't help their inflation either.

[antinano]

62. I think Mugabe has something on that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Hb6H-EpDA

[Critters2]

68. Unbelieveable.

[pampango]

37. Kind of weird that the UN conference on racism only targets Israel when good ol' Bob Mugabe

is such a shining example of the illness.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3760161

[Sultana]

39. Blacks aren't racist

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:


God, I am sick of Mugabe, it's not the time to be doing land grabbing even the land was stolen from the native black inhabitants. Mugabe is like herpes, he just won't go away.

[JCMach1]

38. Most of them are out long ago-- Mugabe keeps beating a dead horse

LITERALLY!

Those left probably deserve their land out of absolute perseverance and love of country.

[bird gerhl]

73. REVERSE RACISM!!

[Lost in CT]

87. I think these are the photos you wanted...

I am so glad the murder is so funny to you... such a political football


Honestly your post is disgusting

you should hang your head in shame.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.africancrisis.org/photos19.asp&usg=___1_kVGRJzbhcIaNeErv13TUY_b8=&h=300&w=400&sz=15&hl=en&start=17&um=1&tbnid=OR4AL4lpr6ce_M:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DZimbabwe%2Bviolence%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DG

[slackmaster]

81. That's racist

:argh:

[Freddie Stubbs]

101. He is turning the country into an Ayn Rand novel

[alarimer]

102. This guy is a fucking monster

Murdering piece of shit. HE should disappear.