Pakistani Singer Ayman Udas ‘shot by her brothers for TV sin’

[Liberal_in_LA]

Source: Times online

May 3, 2009

Singer Ayman Udas ‘shot by her brothers for TV sin’
Daud Khattak

A RISING musical star was allegedly shot dead by her own brothers in the conservative city of Peshawar in Pakistan last week after she had appeared on television.

The murder of Ayman Udas, who was in her early thirties and newly married, has shocked the city’s artistic community because it symbolises a backlash against women and cultural freedom in an area that is increasingly dominated by Islamic funda-mentalists.

As a singer and song writer in her native Pashto, the language of the tribal areas and the NorthWest Frontier province, Udas frequently performed on PTV, the state-run channel.

She won considerable acclaim for her songs but had become a musician in the face of bitter opposition from her family, who believed it was sinful for a woman to perform on television.

Ashamed of her growing popularity her two brothers are reported to have entered her flat last week while her husband was out and fired three bullets into her chest. Neither has been caught.

------------------------------------------


He said: “She was killed for breaking her family traditions.”


Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6211260.ece

[Binka]

1. Jaysus Gawd Is This The 15th Century Or What n/t

[CynicalObserver]

22. That is pretty much how I look at it

Or to put it another way, how would 16th century Europe have turned out if England France Spain and the pope had possessed Nukes?

I think a lot of westerners simply don't grasp how powerful religion is in some societies in the headlines recently. I don't think we have seen this degree of religious fervor and violence in living memory.

[Bluenorthwest]

108. Except for the clinic bombers

Except for the People's Temple. Except for the dozens of religiously infulenced gay bashings every month. The doctors shot dead. So, aside from all the dead and beaten, the mass suicides and the public bombings...we don't have this violence? Are you joking?

[Gregorian]

26. Marvin Gaye.

I will never get over that. It's not too different. But just as crazy.

[Aristus]

29. 15th Century b.c., maybe. In the 15th Century a.d., Islam was actually fairly advanced.

What monsters those brothers must be...

[CynicalObserver]

33. yeah, the juxtaposition of the state of Islam then and today

is disturbing. Heck, take islam 100 years ago vs. today.

My take on it is that wahabbists (funded probably by saudis but who knows) have essentially hijacked many mosques and religious education of young people for long enough now that you have a world-wide pool of people taught and accepting that various forms of destructive suicide are good. (edit - among any number of rather appalling things, not to mention the condition of women in most muslim countries)

The worldwide intentionally incited riots over CARTOONS in denmark should have woken westerners up to the fact they were not dealing with a rational situation. When was the last time you saw such a mass of world-wide riots over an insult to christianity? (of which there have been many more, much more vulgar).

Objective media would re-print, for illustrative purposes, the depiction of jews in arab media cartoons. It is straight out of the third reich's cartoons and propaganda.

[Baby Snooks]

41. The Wahhabis...

The Wahhabi clerics actually "co-rule" rule Saudi Arabia under an agreement between Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, the founder of Wahhabism, and Muhammad ibn Saud in the late 18th century. The Saud family walks a tightrope with regard to the clerics who have always kept them on it.

The Wahhabi beliefs are more "purism" than "fundamentalism" and in fact the clerics consider Shi'ites to be infidels along with everyone else.

The Wahhabi clerics in turn walk a tightrope now as a result of Osama bin Laden over the issue of the relationship of the Saud family with the West and with the Bushes in particular.

Reality is the Saud family does not fund anything. The income is divided per the original agreement. The Saud family buys palaces. The Wahabbi clerics buy the people. Everyone in Saudi Arabia has an income. The descendents of Muhammad ibn Saud receive a percentage based on their place within the family from the Saud family. There are I think close to 15,000 members of the Saud family. Everyone else receives an income, or income supplement, from the government itself based on need.

Every man that is. Women are provided for. They are not allowed to provide for themselves. And it is the same today as it was 100 years ago. And 200 years ago.

That is why the claim that Princess Haifa was supporting a poor Saudi family in California who in turn was giving the money to the hijackers without her knowledge is absolutely ludicrous. She knew what she was funding. As did Prince Bandar. Saudi princesses, unlike Saudi women, are allowed checkbooks. But they do not write checks without their husband's knowledge and approval.

[givemebackmycountry]

56. Baby - I just learned something.

That's a great post. Thanks.

[dorkulon]

92. I do't understand why after all this time, the West still can't distinguish

between these nutty Wahabbis and other Muslims.

[sledgehammer]

118. Because the Wahabis have oil...

So the West has looked the other way as they spread their intolerance and puritanism throughout the world.

[Posteritatis]

132. The Cold War 'taught' us that seeing nuance is a sign of weakness (nt)

[AngryAmish]

123. Nonsense

[dairydog91]

67. I'm going to go with 7th or 8th century...

The Ottoman Empire (Growing in the 15th century), while hardly a bastion of progressivism, was considerably more sane than the current lunatic Islamists.

[snowdays]

2. OMG. There are no words to describe this horrible incident...........

and there have been other horrible ones lately also. Public floggings of women is but one!!!

[saigon68]

104. while her husband was out and fired three bullets into her chest.

Wonder if her husband is going to "put up" with this?

[glinda]

3. This is a sad reminder of what we could become under the Right nut jobs.

[Codeine]

14. Please.

Even the nutsiest of the tightie-Righties isn't representative of this lot.

[pattmarty]

15. I don't know, look at some of the latest shit they have been pulling........

..........since the election. Look at the Texas board of education that was in the news here last week. They're still out there running strong.

[Codeine]

16. Sure they are.

But I've not ever seen them advocating this level of pure insanity.

[pattmarty]

58. I understand that, but I grew up in the late 50's & 60's and they were..................

........a really small minority at the margins and believe it or not, not as nuts as they are today. I don't think it will ever get that way here but this just goes to show how religion ANY religion can make their followers do weird things.

[glinda]

60. That was my point about Religion and what happens when taken over the edge

[annabanana]

100. . . . . . . . . . yet.

It is the natural end of the road they are on.

[Bluenorthwest]

109. Ok. They shoot doctors and blow up clinics

The throw their gay children to the wolves. They organize and spend millions to revoke basic human rights from their neighbors.
What is the level of insanity you have not seen? In specific, please.

[cali]

18. no, they're really not. your comment about TX is about as relevant

as my pointing to Iowa and Vermont to refute your claim. In any case, it's about the historical and cultural context as well.

[pattmarty]

61. No, I disagree. Sure in some areas of the country they are finally...............

............beginning to get a little saner (like "old" Europe has been now for oh, 40 yrs), but other areas like the southeast and Texas, Idaho, Utah, you get where I'm going here, are worse than they were not so long ago.

[cali]

17. oh for pity's sake. we have lots of real threats in our society

that is not a real threat. not even close.

[Wetzelbill]

30. maybe not quite this extreme

but the control and abuse of women happens all the time. I was watching a documentary the other day when a guy was talking about how he beat the hell out of his sister because she got pregnant when she was in high school and he thought it would get them kicked out of their home as they lived with relatives. A few years later she got pregnant again and he beat her up again.

[Bette Noir]

4. RIP.

[wellstone dem]

5. I weep for the women of Pakistan.

I have a friend who lives there, and I pray each day for her safety.

[Baby Snooks]

42. Weep for all women....

Even in secular Islamic societies there are only limited rights for women and the reason why is that there is an inclusion rather than an exclusion of religious law in all civil law. In the end, Sha'ria determines law. Except at one time in Iran and Iraq.

What happened in Iran is happening in Iraq and Pakistan is merely a reflection of it. War has been declared on secularism.

We opened the Pandora's Box twice. First with the Shah. Then with Saddam Hussein. For oil. We have plunged millions into the Dark Ages of Islam for oil. That we will never get. Iranian jets conducted a raid in Kurdistan earlier today. There is a coalition being formed between the Shi'ites of Iran and the Shi'ites of Iraq. Peace may come finally to Iran and Iraq. Through the establishment of one Islamic republic. Which we laid the groundwork for. In our liberation of both countries.

It is a threat to us. Just not a threat anyone has taken seriously yet.

[Raksha]

6. All right ...enough is damn well ENOUGH!!!

There needs to be a global network of women united AGAINST PATRIARCHY!!! I mean in EVERY CULTURE, EVERY RELIGION! The liberated women of world (even if only relatively liberated) have to unite to free their enslaved sisters. The hell with incrementalism and the hell with cultural relativism! Fuck all that. It's time for the enslavement of women worldwide to become a front-burner issue at least with other women, and long past time for it to END!

Is there such an organization already? I'd join it in a heartbeat if there is. If it has "against patriarchy" in its name, so much the better.

[Tumbulu]

10. I am with you!!!!!!!!

Enough already.

[girl gone mad]

34. I wish we could just..

arm these women and teach them how to defend themselves.

[glitch]

35. Count me in.

But first I'd like a black ops team to go over there and take these "brothers" out. Let our taxes be spent on something useful for a change.
Sorry for the call to violence but this makes me so very, very angry.

Who the hell do those assholes think they are.

[moggie]

101. Brave words from a keyboard commando

Haven't you realised yet that the US flexing its military muscle just makes things worse?

[glitch]

110. Thanks for the personal insult, very effective.

Some might even consider it an attack on a stranger simply because you disagree with them.
Peace starts within, no doubt.

I figured I would regret my instant anger over the senseless, arrogant murder by her own family (not yet, btw) but your words certainly don't have any calming effect.
Think about that... if peace is truly your goal the path to is probably not through snark. IMO.

[Witchy_Dem]

40. You are a front row witness to the re-enactment of the Burning Times.

By witness I mean, of course, online. Not that you're actually there.

[Raksha]

44. That sounds about right - a re-enactment of the Burning Times.

The hell with this shit...ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

[Umbram]

77. Yes, it's called AKWABS

Angry
Keyboard
Warriors
Against
Bad
Shit

[asteroid2003QQ47]

91. I'm with you too!!!!!

Patriarchy is the scourge of humanity!
--------------------------------------

"Violence is extremely common in the family; wife battering and incest provide two instances of this principle. If spousal abuse were included in the FBI's figures on assault, its incidence would increase by over 20 times.
Patriarchy lies at the core of wife battering."
--Erich Goode, Ph.D, in DEVIANT BEHAVIOR

[tomm2thumbs]

7. We need to offer jets for women who wish to leave Pakistan for freedom

This is a nightmare

[CrawlingChaos]

8. Dropping bombs on them will not solve this

Not meaning to gloss over the obviously tragic nature of this event, I have to ask, would we even be hearing this story if the West weren't readying full scale war on this country?

Please let's remember that oppression and abuse of women is not improved by the American War Machine. It only increases their suffering (see: Afghanistan) and Western interference invariably leads to more fundamentalists in power.

[davidinalameda]

12. so we should just sit back and hope it gets better?

[CrawlingChaos]

43. We should not make things worse for them...

...by turning their country into a river of blood. We should say NO to war.

There are other, saner ways to respond.

[iamthebandfanman]

99. things are already worse.

not everyone in pakistan is welcoming this fundamentalist surge.

infact, id say the majority dont want it.

im really suprised by seemingly un-responsive reaction of the government.

definitely not in the best interest of the well to do, people with power, and those with wealth...
usually when those things or people are threatened, there is some type of intervention or backlash

war shouldnt be an answer, and is something that should be gone out of the way to avoid...
but people do have to defend themselves.

[davidinalameda]

115. and what would those "saner" ways be

please tell us

[Douglas Carpenter]

119. are you suggesting militarily conquering and ruling by force Pakistan and its 173 million people?

Nothing serves as a better promoter and recruiter for extremism and nothing undermines enlightened ideals more than draconian western military power invading this or any other region.

Until the late 70's most, in fact almost all resistance movements throughout the whole Islamic world were secularist and/or nationalist and/or leftist.

This sea change did not happen in a vacuum.

The saner way takes time, but it involves trade, development and creating an atmosphere of mutual respect and trust.

As long as liberal democracy and enlightened western attitudes are associated with invading armies, stray missiles and bomb falling on villages, towns and families, and outside forces dominating their economies and their countries - enlightened western attitudes and liberal democracy will not get anywhere.

Nothing set back emancipations of women in Pakistan and Afghanistan more than first the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan followed by the American response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. It does not appear that the more recent American military intrusion into Afghanistan and Pakistan are faring any better as the liberator of women and the propagator of enlightened of ideas.

[CrawlingChaos]

133. Great post

Thank you for your thoughtful and well reasoned comments.

Btw, I notice you have a link to Jack Shaneen's "Reel Bad Arabs" in your signature -- an excellent film I wish more people would see.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. we can help them by creating infrastructure but any social scientist

can attest that under war, men are far more brutal toward women and gays than at any other time

[muryan]

13. We might not be hearing this story

But it would still be happening.

[tomreedtoon]

20. Exactly. We have to stop hearing these stories.

That is NOT sarcasm. We can't do anything about these deluded people. We can't change them, convert them or convince them otherwise, and we sure can't go to war with them. So we should wall them off, stop using whatever we buy from them or find an alternative source, and let them kill each other in peace and quiet.

And reminding those of us in the quasi-civilized world that there are monsters out there is not doing us any good. Because it reminds us that WE can't do any good for them.

[Coventina]

96. Yeah, why should we waste our beautiful minds on stuff like that?

Ignorance is bliss....

[tomreedtoon]

102. Ignorance is better than futile agony.

What are you suggesting? We invade their country and force them to treat women with equality? Didn't work too well in Iraq, did it?

Those people will all treat their women like roaches. We will never change that. They will never change. You can't change them. All you can do is walk away and keep them isolated so they don't endanger the sane part of the world.

[Coventina]

117. I suggested nothing of the kind. I don't want to invade Pakistan.

But I think human rights abuses need to be documented and publicized.

Some INDIVIDUALS will never change, true. But cultures can and do change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

We need to know what is going on in places where women are abused. I refuse to shut my eyes and ears to my fellow sisters' sufferings. If I had been born in that part of the world, I would be suffering with them, because I don't have a penis.

I'd hate to think that good-hearted people would turn their backs on me because I'm not worth agonizing over.

[tomreedtoon]

130. No, but futility is futility.

You will never change them. THey will never change themselves. It's the Fourteenth Century over there, and it always will be. The only change would be for them to go back to the stone age, either by bombing them into it, or isolating them and letting them bomb themselves back to it. My way, isolating them, keeps the blood off OUR hands.

[Coventina]

135. Cultures are NOT monolithic entities. Not EVERYONE wants

to live in the 14th century (I'd actually argue 7th century).

As long as there are women fighting for their lives and rights, I refuse to turn a blind eye to suffering.

[tomreedtoon]

143. Well, keep watching and keep getting depressed.

Me, I'll devote my time to causes that I can actually do something about. If you want to emotionally bash yourself, that's your thing. As I walk by the cross you've nailed yourself to, I'll wave; you don't have to wave back (in fact, you won't be able to).

[Coventina]

144. You won't be able to see me, with your head stuck in the sand. n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

57. No one in power wants to listen, but Three Cups of Tea

is the best answer.

[sledgehammer]

80. One of the best books ever written

Highly recommended to everyone. Never again can anyone say: "what difference can one person make?"

[tan guera]

94. I agree

It's "suggested" reading for military personnel.

[SpartanDem]

9. Sometimes I think it'd just best

to fence off the backward ass Middle East from the rest of the civilized world.

[Sultana]

19. Pakistan is not in the Middle East!!!!

It's South-East Asian

Learn your geography, tsk, tsk.

[sledgehammer]

25. Almost correct...

It's actually in South Asia.

[Sultana]

105. ah, yes, LOLOLOLOLOL

[Teaser]

28. just redefine the terms

then everyone is happy.

[Thickasabrick]

11. Watch the video of her on youtube...she was pretty good. RIP

[alfredo]

21. One of her videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo7Aufw5EuI

[philly_bob]

39. A heartbreaking, rage-inducing murder. Please listen to this song.

She has a beautiful voice, modest dress and demeanor. Families (men, women, children) in the audience were "grooving," nodding in time, smiling. Young girls clapped time with their arms in the air, big grins on their faces.

I mourn her death and curse the concept of honor that killed her.

(A musical note: the percussion in the middle sections of this Pashto song is interesting. I tapped along with the music -- but I was tapping at different times than the audience was clapping.)

[alfredo]

53. It's very Indian. Love the percussion of the mideast and India.

[Divine Discontent]

50. though I'm not used to that kinda music - she was VERY good... shame is on her brothers & they

hopefully will be tried for this and found guilty if they are in fact guilty.

[alfredo]

54. They were jealous of her talent.

[Iggo]

23. Hey! That's our friends!

Go Pakistan! Yay!

[AlphaCentauri]

24. fundamentalists are evil

[Odin2005]

27. See, it's a religion of peace!!! *SARCASM*

Abrahamic religions + cultural backwardness = evil

[Name removed]

63. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madrchsod]

49. i`m not retarded

[Divine Discontent]

51. I'm not retarded. That was uncalled for. I don't call atheists retarded, far from it.

I have atheist and agnostic friends. I believe in a higher power and I make no excuse for believing in Him. Your words are poison and aren't permitted on this site, because you are attacking plenty of us who are progressive Democrats and users on this site. Please try not to do that in the future. You can call belief itself a 'fairy tale' and such, but you cannot mock us for our beliefs and call us names.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

82. People get called names on this site all the time. I don't like it, but it happens.

[booley]

55. No

Evil people often use religion to justify what they do.

[scentopine]

32. billions of US tax dollars...

and unchecked brutality by two US occupations have left Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan threatening all of SE Asia. Iran and Pakistan are rapidly developing nuclear capabilities. Political corruption, and a dysfunctional justice system are pushing helpless people to extremism. Things are going to get much, much worse in this region in the coming years. In our march "looking forward" we have shown the world that when it comes the serious crimes like an unprovoked invasion built on a foundation of lies and topped off with widespread torture and abuse, justice can't be found in USA either. Let's fix our own system of justice before trying to fix theirs. Then maybe we could make our arguments from the moral and ethical high ground.

[SammyWinstonJack]

112. .

:thumbsup:

[asjr]

36. If her brothers are caught what will happen

to them. Is there an Iman who will say they were just following Allah's orders.

[oedura]

46. Are you serious? After all, they only killed a woman...

Now if they'd killed somebody's camel or something, THEN they'd be in trouble.

[SKKY]

70. That's assuming they didnt' get an Iman's permission first...

...I've heard that's how things like this work sometimes. Can't let the woman become more important or famous than the man you kow.

[Bluenorthwest]

111. Like getting a note from Cheney to allow torture.

Permission for criminal activity.

[SKKY]

113. 6 of one, half dozen of the other I suppose.

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Anyone think they'll ever be caught, or if caught actually tried?

This is disgusting.

[Vektor]

38. This kind of crap never ceases to amaze me.

I simply cannot wrap my head around the concept of being able to just shoot your own sibling dead like that. What on earth? I know people go berserk and kill their own family members, and it can happen in any country, for a variety of twisted reasons, but I will never be able to fathom how someone could actually do it.

No matter how many times I hard tragic stories about scenes like this, I never stop being shocked by how someone could commit an act like this.

[ismnotwasm]

45. God

How do you even begin to count the wrongness, wrong that one becomes aware with, the obvious wrong--murder-- and sends evil tentacles out up and down, from there.

[ooglymoogly]

47. The stunning ignorance of fundamentalism is the biggest evil stalking our

planet and has to be stamped out wherever it rears its ugly head. No w/man has the right to take another's freedom. Fundamentalism = fascism. Fundamentalism is fascism. It is the very essence of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

[madrchsod]

48. these killers will not go to heaven....

they have killed a voice that was given to her by god.....

[Divine Discontent]

52. I'm sure they think they're perfectly blessed for inflicting judgment & death on her. Sickening. :(

[gauguin57]

59. OK ... I'm totally anti-gun, and against violence. But I'm reaching the point where I'm starting to

believe that we should be secretly shipping guns to the women of Afghanistan, Pakistan and everywhere else where these misogynist Taleban honor-killing assholes seek to lock up, control and kill women.

Give them guns, and teach them how to shoot these men's nuts off. Keep turning men into eunuchs until they knock this shit off!

[No Elephants]

84. Do you really believe that is the answer--That women would not get killed wholesale if that started?

[Chovexani]

62. Why is it that art is always the first thing fundies attack?

Not at all to take away from the misogynist nature of this tragedy, but it made me think about how much fundies of all stripes hate art, artists, and artistic expression. Why is it so threatening to them?

[Withywindle]

68. Because it brings people joy?

Because it can connect people of different backgrounds? Because it can help teach true self-knowledge? Because it's the voice of real spirituality--the creative force within--which is in irreconcilable opposition with authoritarian violence?

Central Asian music is some of the most beautiful in the world, too. Same with classical Islamic calligraphy. Same with Sufi poetry. The Golden Age of Islam was full of fantastic art. (And science too - alongside art, education is the other thing the fundies always try to destroy.)

What fundies seem to have in common is a deep-seated hatred of anything that tries to make life in THIS world pleasant for humans to live in. The "next world" is the only one that counts, after all - they're all just praying for the End of Days.

Meanwhile, the rest of us want no part of any "heaven" with those shitbags stinking up the place.

[No Elephants]

86. I don't think this was about art. IMO, it was about her brothers feeling

threatened by the succss of their sister, a mere female, when compared with their own "accomplishments." The fact that she sang, rather than being a Nobel prize winning physicist, is a detail, not the reason for the killing. JMO.

[jgraz]

64. How the fuck should we react to something like this?

I honestly have no clue what can be done about these atrocities.

[moggie]

103. I think change need to come from within Islam

I don't see how it can be successfully imposed from outside. Perhaps one reason for hope is that there are millions of Muslim women in the west, who have seen the benefits of relatively liberal societies, have seen that women can be powerful when they organise, and who often still have contact with family in their country of origin.

Not that their aren't atrocities committed against Muslim women in the west too, as document by Ayaan Hirsi Ali for example, so change is needed here also.

[christx30]

134. So how long

should the women over there have to wait? I mean... Humanity has basically been around for a few thousand years. It's not like they started any later than the west did. The East is called the cradle of civilization for a reason. So how long should we have to wait for them to catch up with us culturally? To where killing a woman for being amazing is considered a bad thing over there as it is over here? Why should we tolerate that kind of culture? What can we do about it? Probably nothing. What I would suggest is that someone make some kind of awesome form of energy that doesn't require gasoline and freely distribute it, so that petroleum is no longer necessary. That part of the world will become irrelevant. Probably might not be a bad idea of Obama to get some guys to go in and get Pakistan's nukes, since the Taliban are going to take the country over within 2 years.

[moggie]

139. Pakistan doesn't have oil

Did you think that honour killings happen only in oil-producing nations? If so, you haven't been paying attention to, for example, Afghanistan, where they're rife.

Probably might not be a bad idea of Obama to get some guys to go in and get Pakistan's nukes

Like I said, you haven't been paying attention. Your "guys" haven't been able to defeat goatherds in Afghanistan, but you think they can walk into a technological nation and take their nukes away? Military fantasy. An action, by the way, which would play right into the hands of the tribal leaders, probably toppling the government and resulting in much worse conditions for Pakistani women.

Pakistan is a curious mixture of modernity and primitive tribalism. They had the first woman leader of any Muslim state (Benazir Bhutto). Imagine that: just last year, commentators were wondering whether America was ready to vote for a female president, but Pakistan got there over twenty years ago! Proportionally, their National Assembly and Senate have more women members than the US House of Representatives and Senate. And yet they have neanderthals prepared to stand up in parliament and defend the burial alive of women for the "sin" of wanting to choose their own marriage partner. And the government does little to address the problem, because they can't afford to antagonise the tribal leaders.

It's a terrible situation, and I don't see any quick answers. But, off the top of my head:

* Irshad Manji's Project Ijtihad aims to revive the spirit intellectual enquiry and dissent which used to be part of Islam. Free enquiry undermines patriarchy. Much as I'd like to see Pakistan turn atheist overnight, that's not going to happen, so encouraging progressive Muslim voices (they do exist) can help.

* A lot of honour killings have poverty as a contributing factor. Microcredit can help lift people out of poverty. For example, kiva.org work with a Pakistani organisation, Asahah, who lend to women: Asasah employs group lending methodology and believes that female empowerment is a powerful catalyst for positive social change. Hence, for this reason 100% of Asasah's clients are women. Asasah's methodology provides women with flexibility to invest in their business or their family business. While safeguarding support of the entire family, Asasah makes the woman the primary point of contact for delivery of financial services, which elevates her position in the household and community.

* The educational situation for Pakistani women is appalling, and this helps keep women powerless. Schemes to promote literacy among girls can only help.

[christx30]

141. So the fact

that a woman was elected president 20 years ago makes them, in any way more advanced than us? A woman in office is all well and good, but it doesn't make up for the fact that largely they still murder any woman that offends their sense of male superiority, or tries to get an education. I would argue that it's no contest. They still live like it's 1200 A.D. It offends me deeply every time I hear stories like that.

And I wasn't suggestion a military conflict in order to wrest Pakistan's nukes. I was merely suggesting that, for the sake of world peace, the government of Pakistan, knowing that the Taliban may take over and plunge the nation into chaos, might want to get the extremely dangerous weapons away from the extremely dangerous people that are going to take over. It would probably be in the best interests of the United States, moderates in Pakistan, and India for this to happen. What do the Taliban do to provinces that did not fall into line with their backwards ways? Walk away quietly? Or storm the area and kill all those that oppose them?
Now picture those assholes with nukes.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

138. Send in elite commandos.

Kidnap perpetrators.

Try them in the Hague or something. Crimes against humanity.

Lock. Throw away key.

[iandhr]

65. These are the types

of people that our sons and daughters are dying for. My god

[BulletproofLandshark]

66. Fundamentalism is a poison. n/t

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CrawlingChaos]

73. Lovely

Because, of course, all Muslims should suffer for what two men did. That seems to be what you're saying.

How about us? Our gov't has commited unspeakable atrocities in our name. In light of that fact, do we deserve whatever we get?

[Djinn]

75. charming

so when that 'collateral damage' (one of the vilest spin terms in history) includes children and woman and men who may well be as outraged as you are by this murder (if you really think ALL Islamic people feel this is OK then you are simply ignorant as hell) then that's OK too.

Your post is fucking disgusting.

[No Elephants]

85. Good thing there are no crimes in America, then, isn't it?

[Two Americas]

71. hypocrisy

So many on this thread are quick to malign entire cultures.

Yet....

What is this if not a hate crime? There are millions of victims, after all, as it is intended to, and in practical effect does in fact intimidate and terrorize massive numbers of people.

So while we are hating on these "backward" cultures and congratulating ourselves about how enlightened and progressive we are, has everyone forgotten that right here - in the good old US of A, on a discussion board that is supposedly Democratic and liberal and progressive and enlightened - the very concept of hate crimes was relentlessly attacked and contemptuously dismissed by dozens of posters in recent days, and very few refuted their arguments or even showed they had any understanding of the concept of hate crimes let alone expressed support for the concept.

We have also had many, many people making the "it goes both ways" arguments about bigotry and racism and sexism. Does it go both ways? Had a woman in Pakistan shot and killed her brother saying "men should not be performing in public!" does anyone here really thing that millions of men would therefore be intimidated and terrorized by that? If not, why not?

Now...

Tell me again about how "it goes both ways" and about how some of us are "getting offended over every little thing" and are "seeing sexism everywhere" and about how the concept of hate crimes is illogical. Let's hear those arguments right here on this thread.

Time to do some critical thinking and take look in the mirror, DU.


...

[8 track mind]

72. Isn't religion just super duper!!!! n/t

[Djinn]

76. International Campaign Against Honour Killings

Over 5000 women and girls are killed every year by family members in so-called 'honour killings', according to the UN. These crimes occur where cultures believe that a woman's unsanctioned sexual behaviour brings such shame on the family that any female accused or suspected must be murdered. Reasons for these murders can be as trivial as talking to a man, or as innocent as suffering rape.

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/

[Lena inRI]

87. Best writer on helping Islamic women=AYAAN HIRSI ALI. . .

. . .in fact, her autobiography, Infidel, is a powerful exposure of the deeply-rooted dysfunctions of the orthodox Islamic culture she managed to escape in 1997. . .

all Americans should read her story first in order to help these women as activists.

Moreover, if Team Obama is listening, I hope Ayaan Hirsi Ali is asked to join the Obama consultants on what should be U.S. approach to Islamic groups in Pakistan-Afghanistan AND her homeland Somalia regarding piracy. . .

I especially think SOS Clinton and Samantha Power would really benefit from Ayaan's perspective on appealing to Islamic women in these Islamic theocratic countries . . .



http://www.theahafoundation.org/

:think: :think: :think: :think: :think:

[Hatalles]

106. Oh, brother...

Hirsi Ali and her schtick (simply boiled down to Islam = Evil) having anything at all to do w/ the Obama Admin would make about as much sense as Bush's appointment of Daniel Pipes to the US Institute of Peace. Ridiculous.

Constantly demonizing Islam is NOT going to win over or help any "Islamic women." Thankfully, there are many Muslim feminists out there who are actually working within the context of the religion to fight patriarchy. Something that actually has the potential of realistically helping those Muslim women in fundamentalist societies, somewhere down the line.

Of course, these kinds of people don't get as much press as someone like Hirsi Ali.

I'd recommend Asma Barlas, Leila Ahmed, Amina Wadud, Shirin Ebadi, Aminah McCloud, or Jamillah Karim, to name a few.

[Lena inRI]

114. Did you read Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel?

For you to dismiss her message as "schtick" is astonishing.

I suspect you haven't really read her views. After reading Infidel and listening to this 53 minute video clip of her speech with Q & A about her views dated Nov. 15, 2007, then reply here with why you call her views "schtick":

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2606255929315924267

Nevertheless, these other Islamic women you refer to and prefer, I say, all the more power to them, as they address their religion's patriarchal abuses.

My hope still is that ALL these spokeswomen, including Ayaan Hirsi Ali, should be consulted by us Western, non-Islamic women, especially on Team Obama, to comprehend the full extent of the Islamic fundamentalist problem and, as a result, be able to cobble a sensibly systematic reform of Islam's unbearable practices.. . . within our lifetime!

Now is the time to be inclusive, not exclusive.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Hatalles]

124. Inclusion?

I've already read, heard, and seen enough of Hirsi Ali's material, and I'm not impressed in the least. It's a shtick because it's all her views boil down to -- Islam = Evil.

If inclusion is important to you, I don't know why you're touting someone like Hirsi Ali. She would be a better fit in the Bush Admin -- she's already an AEI fellow.

There are plenty of better, smarter, more effective alternatives. I've already named some of them.

[Lena inRI]

126. Ahh, I see, her AEI fellowship bothers you. . .

. . .a right think tank extremist, you think? I must say, I thought her work for them seemed odd since she praised the liberal Dutch society so much in her book. . .in fact, she now favors her Dutch citizenship over all other ties.

I concluded after reading/hearing her that the AEI (American Enterprise Institute) association is more a libertarian/rationalist position and not an extreme anti-Islam bashing, more being anti-fundamentalist branch of Islam much as we might oppose Christian fundies.

In no way is she a Bushite because what you forgot about her story is that she became an atheist in 2002 after much emotional angst. . .

In the video clip I linked above, she spoke before the atheist group to which Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchins belong. . .course, if you already made up your mind about Ayaan, there's not much else I can say to show that her activism FOR Muslim women is very important IMHO.. .especially this group formed in 2008

http://www.theahafoundation.org /

BTW, these other Islamic feminists you mention, could you recommend a book/lecture/link for me to read so I can compare Ayaan to them?

Thanks. . .

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[Hatalles]

127. It does bother me...

... but so does her constant anti-Islam rhetoric.

As for alternatives, here's a few titles:

Quran and Woman - Amina Wadud
http://www.amazon.com/Quran-Woman-Rereading-Sacred-Perspective/dp/0195128362/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241385615&sr=8-2

Believing Women - Asma Barlas
http://www.amazon.com/Believing-Women-Islam-Patriarchal-Interpretations/dp/0292709048/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241385615&sr=8-1

The Veil and the Male Elite - Fatima Mernissi
http://www.amazon.com/Veil-Male-Elite-Feminist-Interpretation/dp/0201632217/ref=pd_cp_b_3?pf_rd_p=413864201&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0292709048&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0GY19KRVVX3MX7SZB0KK

Women and Gender in Islam - Leila Ahmed
http://www.amazon.com/Women-Gender-Islam-Historical-Modern/dp/0300055838/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241385980&sr=1-1

[No Elephants]

88. Thank you for that link. It is a blood curdling site.

[KakistocracyHater]

78. male-pride murdering

they seem to be looking for any reason to daughter-kill or sister-kill, truly the insane end of the religious spectrum. Time to up-date those 2 thousand-year-old etiquette books, or 1 thousand 400 y.o. WAY outdated how-to-live-good books.

[fujiyama]

79. This really sucks

I really feel awful for the artists and well anyone that's sane...This kind of repression really pisses me off.

I saw some really courageous Pakistani women on CNN earlier protesting on the streets. They didn't seem happy at all about the Taliban's expansions and were VERY emotional and angry. They give me hope and I hope they prevail.

[truthisfreedom]

81. This does not bode well for Islamic extremists.

This will serve to marginalize the extremists within their own countries. Call them fundamentalists, but you're wrong... fundamentalism is more about the spirit of a system of belief. Not extreme acts.

As horrifying as this is, Ayman Udas is now an extraordinary martyr. A martyr to the cause of a moderate/progressive Islam.

I hope she died quickly and painlessly. Peace to Ayman Udas.

[Robeson]

83. Well, isn't that special.

[No Elephants]

89. Remember: When we were the only government that Iraq had, we allowed all of Sharia law to be

incorporated into the Iraqi Constitution by reference. And, when a few protested, Bushco and his Kool Aid crowd responded with the fact that women did not get the vote in this land for 200 years. (Don't blame me for the math--that's what they said.) And we in America did very little about it. We still do very little.

[muryan]

90. Indonesia operates with Sharia Law

Don't confuse this rampant unnecessary violence with sharia. Call it for what it truly is, extremism from islamic fundamentalists.

[No Elephants]

97. We were never in charge of Indonesia's Constitution and, IMO, it is not only extremist Muslims who

treat women badly. There are differences of degree of bad treatment, but no equality.

[DFW]

93. NOTHING that happens to her borthers

Would make me comment that they were treated too harshly.

Same goes for those who indoctrinated them into thinking what they did was OK.

[Thor_MN]

95. Is it that big a deal to be known as a Woman's brother?

Hard to imagine a culture that considers it to be a failure as a man if your sister becomes more successful than you. From a genetic standpoint, that looks like a losing strategy. Actively aiding your siblings would increase the chances of your genes surviving, actively destroying your siblings has to be a path to extinction.

[barbtries]

98. so sad, so unnecessary

i can only hope that her tragic death will spark a backlash against the "backlash" that is moving humanities toward the dark ages.

is it really written somewhere that women cannot be people? no wonder i despise religion.

[onlyadream]

107. When I was in college - taking calculus

I sat next to a Pakistani young man (I'm female BTW). During the class he looked at me and asked if I understood what was being taught and I said yes...he then ORDERED me to show/tutor him after class! I didn't even know him, but being young, naive and an idiot, I did just that; we went to the library where I went over the material. He was mad that he didn't know some basic stuff (I guess our American high schools didn't fail me in the math area). Then as we took the bus to the parking lot, he said, "You show me more at my apartment. Now." I was astounded at how he was ordering me to his apartment! His whole attitude was one of ME owing HIM? And I didn't even KNOW the guy! I had visions of me being raped or something - and said sorry, I have to go home. He kept insisting, and I just walked away to my car. I realized then that it was my being a FEMALE that he thought he could order me around, and my whole attitute toward these foreigners changed (and there were lots of these assholes in my major).

[NoodleyAppendage]

116. Start giving guns away to females in that region. Give them something to fight back with. n/t

J

[progressoid]

120. Pakistan is a powder-keg.

It could make Afghanistan look like a playground.

[IndianaGreen]

121. Abort every male fetus and you will bring to an end patriarchal religion

Without women, they won't be able to reproduce, and they will all die with their precious holy books.

[valerief]

122. Sounds good to me. nt

[Raksha]

125. It isn't the male fetuses that are the problem, or the babies or little boys either,

because they haven't been indoctrinated/brainwashed/infected with the disease of patriarchy yet. There is nothing "natural" or "innate" about patriarchy no matter what anyone says--that's all part of the Big Lie.

Now I am NOT proud of this, and I haven't even talked about it since it happened, but once when I was outraged by the oppression of women by the Taliban I suggested on another forum that maybe the women of Afghanistan should just shoot every male over the age of ten--ALL of them without exception! Since the men had become a threat to their lives, and had demonstrated their willingness to kill them simply because they were female, then they would be justified in killing all the men simply because they were male--and therefore an existential threat to them.

I really scared the crap out of everyone on that board, and scared myself before it was all over too. My friends were SO horrified...they thought I was possessed, and I guess in a way I was possessed by a demon of rage. The OP is bringing back flashbacks of that time (it was before 9/11) and I wouldn't go quite that far now. However, I wouldn't be adverse to sending weapons to the women of Afghanistan and/or Pakistan or any other place where they are threatened simply for being women, provided there was some way they could actually keep the weapons and use them for self-defense. My fear would be that they would be caught and disarmed--and then imprisoned or killed for even trying to possess them.

[aquart]

129. I believe they become less agressive when neutered.

No need to kill. Cut off their balls. Fry them up in a pan and make them eat them.

Can be done with a simple household knife while they sleep.

Men who murder women for honor have no honor and are not men.

[Raksha]

131. That's not a bad idea. It would only need to be done a few times

to put the fear of the Goddess into the rest of the pigs. And "the operation" wouldn't even have to be done by a woman--the singer's husband might be a good candidate in this particular situation.

In general, I'm opposed to spreading fear for political reasons(that's the definition of "terrorism," right?) but in this particular situation it would be highly effective.

[aquart]

142. A male friend once explained to me that men should be careful with women

Because they have to sleep sometime. Then he told the story of a bad man who went to sleep and woke up with a broken arm. Should have locked up the frying pans.

[aquart]

128. No family tradition is worth the life of a woman.

Kill her brothers. Cut off their dicks first.

[Blue_Tires]

136. tragic...what kind of person looks their own sister/daughter in the eye and guns them down

as casually as saying hello??

[dugaresa]

140. She was breaking with tradition by being successful

and that probably shamed the male members of her family. The article states she was divorced with two children and recently had remarried. She was getting on with her life and had a growing career it seems. I bet she also made more money than her brothers. Perhaps that shame is why they killed her. Nothing like hiding behind religion as a way to kill someone you resent.

The societies that allow for the subjugation of women (and that even extends to folks her in the US) are just barbaric and to a degree they hold back their own development with these backwards concepts.