No murder conviction in Mexican immigrant's beating death

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: CNN

A fomer Pennsylvania high school football player was acquitted of murder Friday in the beating death of a Mexican immigrant last summer.

However, a Schuylkill County jury found Brandon Piekarsky and Derrick Donchak guilty of simple assault stemming from the death of Luis Ramirez, who died of blunt force injuries to the head after a fight with the defendants and their friends.

Donchak, 19, was also found guilty of providing alcohol to the group of teens that encountered Ramirez the night of July 12 on a residential street in the rural mining town of Shenandoah.

Both teens were acquitted of ethnic intimidation charges.

Prosecutors alleged the teens baited the undocumented Mexican immigrant into a fight with racial epithets, provoking an exchange of punches and kicks that ended with Ramirez convulsing in the street, foaming from the mouth.



Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/01/pa.immigrant.beating/index.html?eref=edition

---

"An all-white jury of six men and six women heard from several prosecution witnesses", all white defendants

Anyone that looks like Mexican is at risk

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Police-Immigrant-Killed-Because-Of-Race-.html?corder=&pg=1
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02272009/news/regionalnews/2nd_suspect_caught_ecuadorian_immigrants_157247.htm

[MikeNearMcChord]

1. America again shows her enlightenment to the world.

Then again it looks like this trial was in Pennsyltucky I'm not surprised, the same would have happened if the victim was black.

[DCKit]

2. Bzzzzzzzztttt. WRONG!!!!

Anyone who isn't completely mortified at this verdict is a racist, unAmerican POS - especially the jurors.

I'm going to have to rethink telling people I was born and raised in PA after this.

[AlphaCentauri]

4. Like in the case of Emmett Till the jury just forgot to say

"If we hadn't stopped to drink pop, it wouldn't have taken that long."

[Honeycombe8]

31. This verdict is unbelievable. Just unbelievable. A sad day in America. nt

[WriteDown]

34. Not really....

The guy(25) was sleeping with his fiance's(who had 2 of his kids) 14 year old sister. I'm sure that added to the jury's apathy.

[Honeycombe8]

36. So the vic was a criminal, too? Hmmm. If I were on the jury, that wouldn't have mattered...

to me. I would think...hey, the guy could've been any hispanic guy. That crime is what it is. It doesn't matter that the guy they killed happened to be a criminal himself. Makes it less sad. But still a hate crime.

But I wonder how that got introduced into the case? The part about the 14 year old? Unless it's relevant to the case, that would not be admissible, I would think. I mean...that would be a hard thing to prove, factually, in the first place, unless it was admitted to by the fiancee and the sister. Even then, since the man is dead and not there to defend himself, I can't see that they'd allow that to be admitted. Unless he was convicted of that previously.

I don't know. Something smells about that "story."

[WriteDown]

37. It would make me apathetic...

I'm not shedding too many tears that this guy is no longer part of the gene pool.

The sister admitted it. It came out because he was with her at the time of the fight.

[LisaL]

38. The girl was with him, so she was a witness, on the night he

was beaten.

[bitchkitty]

40. So in your mind,

the degree of guilt of the predator lessens if the victim is less than a model citizen?

Sounds like he was a real prick. My old man was a prick. But if anyone killed him, they'd rightly be convicted of murder. Why weren't these young men convicted?

Why doesn't it bother you? That there are people who think and feel as you do is as disturbing as the crime, to my mind.

[WriteDown]

41. So being a pedophile is

being a real prick?

I wouldn't have cared if someone had murdered Hitler either. Or Pol Pot. Or Stalin.

Edited for grammar

[bitchkitty]

42. Yes, I'd call that a prick.

Bumping uglies with a 15-year old is despicable, especially if the kid is your wife's sister, but he was still murdered for one reason, and one reason only - his race.

That doesn't bother you? Not even the tiniest little bit? He was a prick, but he was a human being who was murdered because he was brown. That sucks, and his murderers should be punished.

[WriteDown]

43. 15?

Try 14 by the girls account.

And he wasn't murdered. He died in a fight. I think the kids who did it should have been found guilty of manslaughter, but I am not sad to see this guy is no longer walking the Earth. And if you're raping a 14 year old girl (yes, its rape) then you are not quite human.

[EFerrari]

44. Not quite human? What does that make you, the creator?

He was beaten to death by a gang yelling racial slurs.

[WriteDown]

46. That's karma for ya. nt

[bitchkitty]

70. A fight? That's overly simple.

Fox News would be proud of you.

He was beaten to death by white kids yelling racist slurs. They would have just as easily attacked a law-abiding citizen who was brown.

We don't get to pick and choose which people are protected by our laws - they are for everyone, or they're supposed to be. I wouldn't feel sorry for this asshole if he were tried and convicted of statutory rape and sent to prison, then forced to pay child support until all his kids turned 18. But that's off the table, because he was beaten to death by racist white kids.

This wasn't just a fight, it was a hate crime by any definition, and should be treated as such. Even though I strongly disagree with nearly everything you say, I'm still surprised that you're so openly in support of this sort of behavior.

[WriteDown]

71. Nope...

You are over-simplifying what happened. Read the court docs. There was actually two fights. After being verbally assaulted by some drunk teens, the "victim" called for backup and took off his shirt and "bling" in preparation for fighting (in front of the 15 year old girl he was raping). There was a scuffle and the fight broke up. As the teens were departing, the "victim" then attacked them from behind. After that he died while fighting.

Its a crime, that's for sure, but its not that simple.

[madmusic]

72. Your so-called facts are selective

The freepers flooded the sfgate.com comments on this story. First, the girl was alone in the park when they asked her if was past her bedtime. She later told her boyfriend. These guys didn't know they were boyfriend and girlfriend and so can't claim they we beating a pedophile. He didn't attack them from behind. It was over and the guys kept taunting him while walking away. That started it all over again. He was unconscious and flat on his back when he was kicked by the alleged fatal blow. The issue at trial was who landed the fatal blow. No one could say for sure.

Bottom line, we will never know what happened.

[WriteDown]

75. Haha...

Read the court docs. She admitted on the stand that they'd been sleeping together since she was 14. Try again.

[bitchkitty]

77. On the stand -

the poster said that the white kids did not know that she was the victim's girlfriend at the time of the attack.

Again, the victim is on trial in your mind. Would you feel differently if he had not been the girl's boyfriend?

If I were these kids' lawyer, I'd definitely want you on the jury. Kind of surprised that you'd be swayed emotionally though - I would think you'd know that a juror must be dispassionate.

edited for clarity

[AllentownJake]

3. I knew this was going to happen

My mother was born in this area and I go to it about once a year. The region was never what you would say prosperous but its been getting poorer and poorer.

There is a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in this area. I pretty much knew the kids would get off.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

5. My home town .............

Granted, I left there a long time ago, but it was, back then, a wonderful place to grow up. It's changed a lot, not for the better - depressed economy, people moving out, and the empty dwellings have been taken over by squatters. It's quite the drug place, too, since it's equidistant between Philadelphia and New York, so it's a natural stop-off and distribution center.

There are a lot of illegal folks there, not just Mexicans, and I'm told the tensions are high. But, this incident was beyond the pale. When it happened, I read about an eyewitness - a retired Philadelphia police detective - who witnessed the altercation from her home, and who heard everything, including the racial epithets.

She was never called to testify.

Neither were a lot of obvious witnesses.

From what I can see, the prosecution did a very bad job. Very bad. Their case was concluded in little more than two days, which was impossible, given the circumstances.

The outrage in Shenandoah right now is high, and there are hopes that Federal charges will be brought against these thugs. It's not the greatest place in the world, but it really is not as bad as this makes it appear to the outside world. After all, the jurors were selected from a county-wide pool, and Schuylkill County is a pretty big place; I doubt that any of the jurors was from Shenandoah.

The heartbreak is that Ramirez, the murder victim, left a girlfriend with three small kids, all under 5 years of age, and he had also knocked up her 15-year-old sister and another girl. So there are 5 children out there who will grow up without a father.

Tragic all around .............................

[EFerrari]

7. Link for the sister and other girl's pregnancies. Thanks.

[AlphaCentauri]

11. classic defense of a criminal, dehumanize the victim n/t

[Baby Snooks]

9. Nothing like a prosecutor believing in the prosecution...

The same thing happens in Texas and probably everywhere else. Politically correct prosecutors prosecuting cases they really don't want to. Because they believe some are less than others.

Which probably is what happened here. Tragic indeed.

Hopefully the Justice Department will right the wrong. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

10. Strangely enough, it's a very red area -

Poor as dirt, no jobs, no manufacturing, the place has been going downhill for the past half-century, and still they vote Republican, over and over.

I can't understand what happened here, unless the Feds told the county prosecutor to back off and leave those thugs to them. The Feds did intervene and snagged one of the kids who was there, who was involved in the fight, a juvenile, by offering him a deal, and turning him. BUT, that kid wasn't called to testify in the trial that just took place.

I really don't understand that, unless the Feds so tied the prosecutor's hands, by refusing to let this kid testify, that he was just blocked. As an old litigator, and as someone who knows one of the defense attorneys, I had to laugh when the prosecution rested because they'd hardly proved their case. All Fanelli had to do was keep repeating "reasonable doubt" over and over, which is what he did, and, because of the jury instructions, the jurors couldn't have found otherwise.

[AlphaCentauri]

12. I can see Roger Laguna Colin's attorney struggling to answer questions about hate

http://promigrant.org/showDiary.do?diaryId=337

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. That woman asked an inane question,

but, then, that interview took place just after the murder, so things were still rather confusing, as these things always are.

Laguna apparently did a good job for his client, Colin Walsh. He got a deal from the Feds, took a plea in federal court to charges under the Fair Housing Act. Those court documents have been sealed, and no one knows exactly what the deal is, but my guess is that, because he's still a minor, the sentence will be relatively light.

The prosecution just did a lousy job, that's the simple answer. And, I just got off the phone with someone whose family still lives there, and he said the overriding sentiment is that people are hoping the Feds will charge those kids.

Somewhere, someone has to deliver justice............

[Baby Snooks]

13. But hasn't the jury pool become tainted by this?

If there is a federal prosecution, how will they find a jury that isn't already aware that they were already acquitted?

The real base of the Republican Party is found in the rural areas where people tend not to be as educated as they are in urban areas - that is one reason why the Republican Party has so far been able to maintain its majority in some states like Texas. And as the economy worsens, that base may expand in these areas. Especially with an African-American president. We have come a long way in this country. We still have a long way to go. We are still a racist society. And even with the most skilled prosecution I suspect that would have been a factor in this case.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. And yet, to my surprise and delight,

Pennsylvania went blue for Obama in November! I predicted exactly wrong, and I was so thrilled to be wrong. But, those are the better-educated areas, you're right, who are voting Democrat. When Obama spoke - privately, or so he thought - about those "bitter people clinging to their guns and their religion," he was dead right on. Those people who are the bigots - and there are plenty of them - can be found in church every Sunday.

My home town has so many churches, you'd think you were in medieval Europe. Some of them are closed now, but the structures - built by immigrants who arrived at the turn of the twentieth century - are very beautiful.

The Federal District Court is located in Philadelphia, so that's a very different demographic, and you would find a very different kind of juror. Also, you're gong to have a much more sophisticated set of laws that might be applied.

With no federal statute against murder (except of a law officer), they could be charged with depriving Ramirez of his civil rights, which carries a really stiff penalty - comparable to a murder sentence.

Something has to happen .........................

[Baby Snooks]

24. Maybe there's hope for Texas...

If Pennsylvania can turn blue, maybe Texas can. The problem, of course, is that the only thing worse than a racist Republican is a racist Democrat. We've come a long way in this country but we still have a long way to go.

[No Elephants]

32. Pennsylvania's going for Obama does not mean that this area went for Obama.

[pleah]

6. Sad, very sad.

The message it conveys is loud and clear.

[EFerrari]

8. Post racial? Not really. n/t

[imdjh]

16. A minor correction- the article said that one of the defendants was hispanic

Which doesn't mean he wasn't white, as some 70% of hispanics identify as white, but it does change the dynamics a little.

Anyone that looks like Mexican is at risk

I'm betting that would actually be a statistical anomaly, assuming the unfinished portion of your declaration is "from Anglo Americans"

[AlphaCentauri]

19. Brandon Piekarsky and Derrick Donchak ? can you tell which one of them is hispanic?

Anyone that looks like Mexican is at risk from people who are growing xenophobic sentiments

[imdjh]

80. Sorry, that was from one of the links

This link is the one who said that one of the accused is hispanic, but at the time I thought this article had something to do with the OP article on Shenendoah.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Police-Immigrant-Killed-Because-Of-Race-.html?corder=&pg=1

[Number23]

17. How horrible.

[bc3000]

18. I find it hard to have sympathy for the victim

The CNN article is pretty sparse. If you read other sources you will find that Ramirez was with the 15 year old sister of his wife, who he was sleeping with. He started the violence, and then reinitiated the violence after it had ended once. So, yes, he was a Mexican immigrant. But he was also a violent pedophile who attacked a group teenagers that included minors.

It's cases like this that make people oppose hate crime legislation. Ramirez was not attacked because he was a Mexican. He attacked a group of teenagers, twice, and in the course of the fighting some racial slurs were uttered. To me, that is not a hate crime. I don't think anyone should have to hear someone yell a racial slur at them. But if it happens, it does not give one the right to physically attack the person yelling the slur, especially if that person is a minor.

I'm not saying I am a proponent of vigilante justice, nor do I support a death sentence for pedophiles. But to look at this case and portray it as some innocent man who was attacked because of his race is just blatantly false.

[AlphaCentauri]

20. I just wonder why the Jena Six where convicted for a street fight out of control

please provide some links of those allegations

[bc3000]

21. The Jena 6 were convicted because of racism imo

This article goes into much more detail: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/05/no_verdict_yet_in_shenandoah_i.html

"Ramirez and his 15-year-old girlfriend in a park." I forget where I found the other article that stated this 15 year old was also his wife's sister. Also, she is either pregnant or has already given birth to one of his children. Again, I didn't say I support the death penalty for pedophiles, but it's also very difficult for me to have sympathy for them. I can see how a jury might feel the same way. It seems like this would be the worst kind of person to make into a poster boy for hate crime legislation.

It also seems to me that there was really no crime committed by the teenagers until the final kick that killed him. They were defending themselves and a friend from an attack by an adult male and then one in the group went too far, albeit way too far. They should all go to prison for that?

It also mentions that one of the group is already in jail after pleading guilty and "could be released in 4 years" so that means he got what? at least a 6-8 year sentence?

[AlphaCentauri]

22. He was killed because he was a Mexican dating a white girl

I've been searching for a proof that he was killed for supposedly been a pedophile with no luck
but I've found out that other Mexicans have the same problem:

This is the case of Ruben*, a 39-year-old Mexican, who came to Shenandoah 10 years ago and lives with his partner of five years, 28-year-old Susan*.

Marriage is not a possibility for Ruben, who entered the country illegally and would need to return to Mexico and wait for 10 years before gaining legal status. He prefers to stay here with his three children and his girlfriend, ignoring the occasional insults shouted at him in the street by white teenagers, who call him a "dirty Mexican" or a "wetback."

Susan says she has also been the object of disapproving glances and comments for having a Mexican partner.

"It doesn't happen every day, but occasionally they've told me that I'm dirty to be with a 'dirty Mexican,'" says Susan. "I feel more welcome in the Latino community," she adds.

..

Another couple that has faced the hostile environment of Shenandoah is 32-year-old Felipe* and his girlfriend, Anne*. A native of Guanajuato, Mexico, Felipe works as a gardener and has lived for six years with Anne and their two children, who are two and four years old.

Although they may get married, Felipe says he doesn't want to. "I don't want people to say that she married me so I could get my papers," he says. "I am with her because I love her."
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=b4a2ba1382306a3c44c493a0932c17da

[bc3000]

26. I never said he was killed for being a pedophile.

I said I have trouble feeling sympathy for him because he was a pedophile.

He was having sex with a 15 year old girl. That makes him a pedophile.

[AlphaCentauri]

29. Emmett Till's father was executed for raping women

it didn't justify his killing but was used to dehumanize him so his killers were acquitted.

I can see some parallels in the reaction of the communities around these 2 cases.

[WriteDown]

39. But in this case...

The minor admitted that they had been sleeping together since she had been 14. In this case this guy was less than human.

[No Elephants]

53. Very relevant--if the murder victim had been on trial for statutory rape. However,

the murder victim was not on trial for anything. His killers were on trial.

[WriteDown]

55. There was only one killer and he's serving 9 years..

These kids were just in the fight. See post 49.

[No Elephants]

59. Feel better now? BTW, nothing in post 49 changes anything I've posted to you in terms of the law,

which is supposed to apply in a trial. So, you can stop referring me to it every time you post to me. Besides, the bias of the author of that post is evident from the way he or she chose to tell the tale.

[WriteDown]

61. Try post 57.

She is telling the tale based on what was said in court. Read the court docs.

[No Elephants]

64. I wrote post 57, so I agree with everything in it. Thanks.

[WriteDown]

66. Haha, meant 60. nt

[No Elephants]

68. I prefer 57, 63 and 65, to which I refer you, especially 65.

[WriteDown]

69. That can't be. Those posts are terrible.

:)

[AlphaCentauri]

23. Court documents give this account of the July 12 fatal beating of Luis Ramirez

Ramirez had been traveling in a vehicle with friends Arielle Garcia of Shenandoah and her husband, Victor Garcia-Cruz, about 11:15 p.m.


Ramirez requested to be dropped off at Vine Street Park so he could walk home.


They also dropped off a 15-year-old female relative of Crystal Dillman, 24, of Shenandoah. Dillman is Ramirez’ fiancee.


The 15-year-old walked to her home on nearby Lloyd Street while Ramirez waited at the park.


As she was heading back to the park, a group of six male teens, some of whom had been drinking, began yelling at her and Ramirez.


The comments included, "You should get out of this neighborhood," and "Get your Mexican boyfriend out of here."


Among the teens were Derrick Donchak, 18, Brandon Piekarsky, 16, and Colin Walsh, 17, all of Shenandoah, and a 17-year-old Shenandoah male whose name was not released.


Ramirez walked away on Lloyd Street and called Arielle Garcia on his cell phone to say he was being harassed.


The teens followed him and one of them called Ramirez a "spic."


Ramirez asked him what his problem was.


Piekarsky, Walsh and the 17-year old then ran toward Ramirez and a fight broke out.


Donchak joined the fight.


Ramirez fell to the street and the teens punched and kicked him repeatedly.


Ramirez got back on his feet and the fight moved west down Lloyd Street.


Arielle Garcia and Victor Garcia-Cruz arrived. Garcia-Cruz tried to break up the fight but was punched from behind.


Walsh punched Ramirez in the face, causing Ramirez to fall back and hit his head on the macadam street.


As Ramirez lay unconscious, Piekarsky kicked him in the left side of his head.


The teens ran away.


Ramirez was taken to St. Catherine Medical Center in Ashland, then flown to Geisinger Medical Center in Danville, where he underwent surgery for head injuries.


His condition worsened and he died July 14 at 6:38 a.m.


On July 13, the youths involved in the beating had met to plan how to conceal or limit their involvement in Ramirez’s beating.

I don't see any evidence that Ramirez attacked them

[AlphaCentauri]

25. younger than 16 can marriage in Pennsylvania

Under 18:
If either of you are under 18 years of age, you must pay an additional $5.00, show your Birth Certificate, and have the written consent of a parent or guardian. Anyone under 16 years of age needs parental consent and the approval of a Judge of the Orphans Court.


That's interesting, I did not understood why Arielle Garcia Called Victor her husban

http://www.huliq.com/65480/mexican-immigrant-beaten-death-shenandoah-pennsylvania

[bc3000]

27. What do marriage laws have to do with it?

In Pennsylvania, having sex with the 15 year old sister of your spouse makes you a pedophile.

edit: she was actually 14 when the statutory rape began:

Among the witnesses Monday was a 15-year-old girl who told jurors that she began dating Ramirez when she was barely 14. She said she had a sexual relationship with him and that he had proposed marriage to her a few days before the altercation.

The girl is the half-sister of Crystal Dillman, 25, who has two children with Ramirez and who has called herself Ramirez's fiancee.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090427/ap_on_re_us/us_immigrant_killing_students

[AlphaCentauri]

28. In Pennsylvania anyone can have sex with a minor as long as they are marriage

that's funny, isn't it.
In any case, what has his relationship with the 15 years old had to do with his murder?

[bc3000]

30. the statutory rape had nothing to do with the murder

But it could very well have had something to do with the decision of the jury. Many people seem to be perfectly willing to assume the jurors were racists and made their decision based on racism. I don't think it's much of a stretch to consider that their decision might have been influenced by the fact that this guy started a sexual relationship with a 14 year old girl.

[madmusic]

74. There is no evidence of that.

The jury foreman said he wanted to convict them but could not because there was not enough evidence. There was not enough evidence because no one could or would say for sure who landed the fatal blow and the stories were confused or contradicted. That's all.

[No Elephants]

33. the victim had no right to attack the teens for a slur, but they had a right to beat him to death?

As far as the victim having illegitimate kids, tsk, tsk and all that, but having illegitimate kids is not a capital crime, even in Pennsyltucky.

If killing someone at whom you've yelled racial slurs is not a hate crime "to you," then what is?

I have mixed feelings about hate crime legislation, but, if you assume it should exist, then this crime fits the description.

[WriteDown]

35. No...

But sometimes in fights people die. The kids are worthless for ganging up on him. What ever happened to fighting one on one like a man.

As far as Luis is concerned, seems like a bit of karma hit him. He was sleeping with the 14 year old sister of his fiance. Bad things sometimes happen to people like that. I'm not sure he deserved to die, but I'm not shedding too many tears.

[No Elephants]

48. Fortunately, whether you shed tears or not is not the point of the law. Nor was the murder victim

on trial. (And, even if the victim had been on trial, evidence of his affair with his girlfriend's sister would not have been admitted.) Nor did anyone put put these thugs in charge of dispensing karma. Hence, the verdict is crap.

Again, though, your posts are certainly consistent, if nothing else.

[WriteDown]

50. I said they should be convicted of manslaughter...

but I can see why the jury was apathetic at best. And karma is not put "in charge" by anyone. It just happens.

And your posts are incoherent, if nothing else :).

Oh, and see post 49.


edited to add thought.

[No Elephants]

51. As I said, consistent, if nothing else.

[WriteDown]

52. Oookay. nt

[EFerrari]

45. Bull. He was walking home when he was attacked. And you're justifying a hate crime. n/t

[WriteDown]

47. Actually....

He was walking with the 15 year old girl that he was raping. Just to be clear.

[No Elephants]

54. Very clear--and totally Irrelevant.

[WriteDown]

56. Not in the least...

It no doubt added to the jury's apathy and also attracted his karmic outcome.

[No Elephants]

58. In referring to a trial, I used the term "irrelevant" to mean legally irrelevant. Legally, the

"sins" of the murder victim should not have influenced the verdict.

As far as karma, if we all got all the good and/or the bad that we actually deserved in this life, a lot of things would be very different. Those of us who have been lucky enough to escape our own karmic fates (so far, anyway) can perhaps afford to be self-righteous about the sins of others. However that self-righteousness itself is but a sin. So, I'll leave the subject of karma to you.

[WriteDown]

62. But it WAS relevant...

as seen by the verdict. That is why character witnesses are used.

[madmusic]

73. Wrong

There is no evidence there was any sexual activity in the park.

EDITED to be less inflammatory.

[Alameda]

78. Ummm......and you know that how?

[dustbunnie]

49. It was more or less one of those testosterone-laden, idiotic street fights.

The 25-year-old adult got pissed because some drunken minors embarrassed him in front of the 15-year-old he was ploughing, took off his shirt and jewelry, gave the girl his wallet and went to prove his machismo. He even called for backup. That's not exactly being "attacked" and even after he was knocked down, he ran after the crowd of drunken teens and hit one of them in the back of the head. After his girlfriend told him to stop and forget it. It ended up costing him his life. Happens all across America on a regular basis. The dude who delivered the fatal blow has pled guilty and is slammed for a 9-year sentence. Drunken white on white brawls that end in death get the same sentences. Google it if you like. And having witnessed a number of drunken brawls in my day, I can't think of one that didn't include racial or ethnic epithets. That's what guys do when they fight.

[No Elephants]

57. As I posted upthread, I don't know how I feel about hate crime legislation. However,

I take it that it exists in Pennsylvania, so how I feel about it is moot. It was the law and we are all charged with knowledge of the law.

Whether racial and ethnic ephithets are common in fights or not is beside the point in a hate crime. Frequency of occurrence does not mean it is not driven by race hate. Racial, religious and ethnic bias is common. Film at 11.

People are entitled to harbor biases, I suppose. They are not entitled to beat someone to death though. When epithets are followed by violence, there's a real problem.

BTW, the racial epithets were not hurled only when the "guys" were in the midst of a drunken brawl. They were hurled at a Hispanic simply because he was walking along the street with a white girl. That is very different from how your narrative makes it seem.

[dustbunnie]

60. No, people are not allowed to beat others to death unless their own lives are at stake.

Hence the nine-year sentence for the one who went too far. What else do you need? Murderer ----> going to jail.

Quite frankly, putting this situation in the same league as what happened to Matthew Shepard or the Jewish kid tortured to death in Paris is sad. While they hurled racial epithets at this dude no one went to touch him until he made it clear he was into it. When he was knocked on his ass, it still wasn't enough and he went back for more, even though the threat was retreating. I suppose if the friend with the gun had arrived earlier and at least one or two of the white teens had been taken out, it would have been a much more satisfactory ending. To me, that's called a street fight. Not a hate crime.

I've been hassled for being a white woman walking down the street with a darker skinned friend. Instead of brawling or pulling out a knife to avenge ourselves we walked away and found a beat cop. Guess what, we're alive! This guy deserves the Darwin Award if nothing else. But I digress. He wasn't attacked with fists at first. It was words. As I said, the situation wasn't at all like a true hate crime where a gang of thugs purposely sets out to beat, rape or kill someone based on their skin color or sexual identity. By your logic, any racial or ethnic insult hurled out the window of a car while driving by someone is worthy of a prison sentence. Maybe that would be a good thing, but it isn't how it works.

[No Elephants]

63. I disagreed with one of your comments. That does not equate to my

"needing" anything in particular. I never said a thing about the length of the sentence or about Matthew Shepard. I also said nothing about punishing speech or feelings. To the contrary, I specifically said that I supposed people were entitled to their biases. What I DID say was that a problem occurs under hate crime legislation when you combine racial epithets with beating someone to death. I also specified that I had mixed feelings about hate crime legislation. So, yes, you do "digress" quite a bit.

IMO, your "response" to me is dishonest in light of what I actually posted. Then again, I thought your narrative in the post to which I was responding was slanted in only one direction as well. Maybe that's simply how you try to make your points?

[dustbunnie]

65. I didn't mean you in particular. You as in everybody.

Someone is going to prison for this crime. The person who actually killed someone. Another one is also going to juvie-jail for some time, the one who did the worst of the epithet hurling.

The others, these guys, were minor players involved in a drunken street brawl. Their sentences were meted out accordingly,

I made my points based on your post above mine, which is all about hate crime. I expanded on that and gave you my opinion of what constitutes a hate crime and gave two examples of such a crime. Apparently the judge, jury and the law itself agrees with me. Sorry if you think I was attacking you but I wasn't, and think my points have merit given the content of your posts.

[No Elephants]

67. Maybe you need to stop reading things into my posts. Try sticking to what they actually say. And,

I mentioned hate crime because that is apparently at least one of the laws that pertained to this trial. Not every reference to a hate crime is a comparison to Shepherd, nor does every reference to hate crime legislation indicate bloodthirstiness.

Sorry, I don't know why I am even replying. Some conversations are patently pointless. I think this is one of them.

[dustbunnie]

76. You engaged me in conversation, not the reverse.

No one said you mentioned Matthew. I did.

The trial testimonies of those involved are pretty much public now, so it's relatively easy to read and see why the accusation of hate crime was a wash. That's where I got my info from. It's all a matter of public record now.

You engage me, then when I don't respond as you wish, you make snarky comments about how I post. Then write some more and when I reply again, say it's useless to talk to me. You then move elsewhere to talk about my bias. Passive-aggressive much? :)

[Alameda]

79. I have a half sister that lives in the next town....

there is a LOT of racial hatred in this area. It's been going on there for generations. My niece is married to a Mexican immigrant and she and her husband have experienced a lot of hate. Her daughters have gotten hateful notes in school. Nothing has been done. Thus the environment for this type of crime festers and grows....What next?

My nieces are terrified. They have complained, but nothing is done. As for this case, there is a lot about this case that has not come out. The fact of the matter in this case is 8 football players attacked and murdered a Mexican immigrant. If he was legal or not, was carrying on with an underage girl isn't the issue. Much has been done to discredit and paint the victim as someone who deserved what he got. I don't think anyone deserves what he got, and the jury did not hear the evidence, because it was not there to be presented.

Gee, a 14 year old can pass themselves off as 18 or more, I know, I did it. Have you taken a look at some 14 year olds.....?

Want to do something about it? Here sign this petition.

http://maldef.org/luis_ramirez_petition/