US troops told to witness for Jesus

[bemildred]

Source: al Jazeera

US soldiers have been encouraged to spread the message of their Christian faith among Afghanistan's predominantly Muslim population, video footage obtained by Al Jazeera appears to show.

Military chaplains stationed in the US air base at Bagram were also filmed with bibles printed in the country's main Pashto and Dari languages.

In one recorded sermon, Lieutenant-Colonel Gary Hensley, the chief of the US military chaplains in Afghanistan, is seen telling soldiers that as followers of Jesus Christ, they all have a responsibility "to be witnesses for him".

"The special forces guys - they hunt men basically. We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down," he says.

Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/05/200953201315854832.html

[MrModerate]

1. Christers will be the death of America yet. n/t

[depakid]

10. Impressive, isn't it?

and doubtlessly well received by the local population....

[Javaman]

91. a crusade by any other name...nt

[marshall]

104. Isn't it s death sentence over there already?

There is only one religion tolerated, Islam, and anyone who tries to spread another will be severely dealt with.

[tularetom]

2. No fucking wonder they hate our guts

If that quote is true that asshole ought to be sent to be a witness for jeebus among the penguins of Antarctica.

[Fumesucker]

62. I'd rather see him witnessing for Jesus to the polar bears of the Arctic myself..

:)

[jmowreader]

86. I'd like to see him PERSONALLY witness for Jesus...

among Muslim men who are pissed off we're in their country in the first place, who are even more pissed off we're trying to convert them to Christianity while we're there, and who have guns.

This idiot chaplain apparently doesn't realize the gravity of the situation here: every Afghani person our troops win for Jesus is a dead man walking. If the Taliban take over again, and I think the only reason they haven't tried it nationwide yet is the presence of the US military, they will execute every person who converted away from fundamentalist Islam on a charge of apostasy. Those people don't accept any other religion--remember the Buddhas they destroyed with high explosives? It's not just that they love Islam. Many of them do. Many of them would fight to the death for it--not uncommon among extremely devout people of any faith; witness...well, about half the wars the world has ever known. These people cannot convert because they know someone will kill them if they do and I despise the fact our own United States Army is intentionally setting the Afghanis up.

[Bozita]

3. Infuckingsanity! ... Just pure unadulterated infuckingsanity!

[The Doctor.]

116. Can you imagine what would happen if Muslims tried to convert Americans in Arkansas?

Seriously... the easiest way to determine the difference between the enlightened and the hypocrites is to put the shoe on the other foot.

Too many people just haven't the imagination to not be morons.

[snowdays]

4. The footage has surfaced as Barack Obama, the US president, prepares to host Hamid Karzai,.........

I wonder how much of this true? Is true, this is very disturbing and should be smacked down ASAP.


.........."Do we know what it means to proselytise?" Captain Emmit Furner, a military chaplain, says to the gathering.

"It is General Order Number One," an unidentified soldier replies.

But Watt says "you can't proselytise but you can give gifts".

The footage also suggests US soldiers gave out Bibles in Iraq.

In his address to a Bible study group at Bagram, Afghanistan, Watt is recorded as saying: "I bought a carpet and then I gave the guy a Bible after I conducted my business.

"The Bible wasn't to be 'hey, I'll give you this and I'll give you a better deal because that would be wrong', the expressions that I got from the people in Iraq just phenomenal, they were hungry for the word."

The footage has surfaced as Barack Obama, the US president, prepares to host Hamid Karzai, Afghanistan's president, at a summit focusing on how to tackle al-Qaeda and Taliban bases dotted along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

Asif Ali Zardari, Pakistan's president, will also take part in the talks in Washington, scheduled for May 5 and 6.........................

[bemildred]

6. Well, the timing is probably no accident.

But that is not the central issue, the central issue is that this is contrary to General Order Number One, i.e. insubordination, mutiny.

[snowdays]

15. Says it was shot a year ago...........

ummm.. about the general order. Does the Commander in Chief trump Jesus?


evil grin icon on.




.............Local language Bibles

The footage, shot about a year ago by Brian Hughes, a documentary maker and former member of the US military who spent several days in Bagram, was obtained by Al Jazeera's James Bays, who has covered Afghanistan extensively.

Bays also obtained from Hughes a Pashto-language copy of one of the books he picked up during a Bible study lesson he recorded at Bagram.

It is not clear any of the local language Bibles were distributed to Afghans
A Pashto speaker confirmed to Bays that it was a Bible. ............

[jmowreader]

87. The term the "unidentified soldier" used scares me

Calling the Christian charge to spread the Gospel to all those who may not have heard it by a term which makes it sound like it's a military duty to proselytize is very worrisome...because you know that at some point some dumbass over there is going to shoot someone of a non-Christian faith because the non-Christian was "of an evil faith."

[formercia]

103. Be baptized or die

acting like Conquistadores in New Spain.


Killing little brown people in the name of 'progress' since 1492 (AD 312 in Europe.}

[peacetalksforall]

5. It's one thing to live here in the U.S. and get choked with their attempted takeover of

all levels of the government, the media, the military = choked by radicals. Can you imagine being an Afghani citizen and have their radicals own PLUS our radical military choking you.

[PfcHammer]

7. Fuck that. I'd be fraggin my ass off

[Jackpine Radical]

17. That's not the way you do it.

You're supposed to frag somebody else's ass off.

Leastwise, that's how it was in my day. And we liked it that way.

[Hekate]

8. This is pure Bush legacy. If it has not been stopped yet, it needs to be.

It's well documented that the fundies took over the Air Force Academy, and that missionaries were permitted to encourage soldiers to promote the Christian faith in Muslim countries under Bush. Al Jazeera may be using old footage, but even so it completely undermines what is supposed to be the American military mission.

Hekate

[RedCloud]

9. Thou shalt kill!

Were did I see that before? Oh yeah, nowhere.

[Gamey]

11. Christians aren't bigoted...they can hate anyone.

Christinsanity = feeling fucking superior.

[givemebackmycountry]

12. The Lt. Colonel is out of his fucking mind and should be immediately discharged...

"The special forces guys - they hunt men basically.
We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus.
We do, we hunt them down," he says.

I was going to post something snarky, something witty, something maybe even smart.

Lieutenant-Colonel Gary Hensley with all due respect, go fuck yourself.

[rfranklin]

66. He has violated his oath to defend the Constitution...

by trying to establish religion. This is grounds for court martial. But we might see that when the mythical Hell freezes over.

[24601]

135. He didn't establish Christianity - it was established almost

2000 years before he was born. He is instead attempting to spread it and the Constitution is silent on spreading it. The Constitutional provisions regarding religion are basically that there shall be no religious test for office and that Congress shall neither establish religion not prohibit the free exercise thereof. These circumstances don't seem to fit any of those provisions.

[No Elephants]

138. The Establishment Clause does not refer to creating a new religion. It refers to

attempts by Congress (apparently now construed to mean government in general) to make one religion the official religion of the United States. Attempts by the United States military, using United States taxpayer money, to try to convert to Christianity inhabitants of nations occupied by the government of the United States comes dang close. In fact, it crosses the line.

[PurityOfEssence]

142. Actually, even THAT's pretty narrow

Theocrats have been trying to neuter Article One for years with the misstatement that it was intended to keep a particular religion from gaining favor and endorsement as "the official religion". A strict reading doesn't turn up "a particular religion" or something of that ilk, it reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

That doesn't mean some specific religion, that means RELIGION ITSELF. By a very simple and obvious reading of this line, for the U.S. Government to state that there is a god or group of gods is against both the letter and spirit of the law. Congress is to make no law pertaining to religion other than guaranteeing its people the right to practice whatever weirdness they please.

Even reading it strictly, putting "In God We Trust" on money is illegal, since the printing of money is done at public expense that's ultimately authorized by Congress, which holds the purse-strings. This is why faith-based bureaucracy is against the law: Congress ultimately appropriates monies for the salaries of these fantasists and thus endorses their use of faith.

There's nothing AT ALL in there about this being a mere firewall against a specific religion getting a leg up on the others, and arguments of that sort serve the nasty purpose of further driving the acceptance of governmentally endorsed religion into our collective subconsious.

Religion should be given no toe-hold; it doesn't play fair and firmly believes it is above the laws of heathens. Given any gain whatsoever, it works only to further encroach; the Swat Valley is a clear example of this.

[IndianaGreen]

13. The Taleban is far worse than any misguided Christian missionary

Military chaplains are not allowed to proselytize. This is a military discipline problem that needs to be addressed by the command.

Furthermore, limits on proselytizing by military chaplains and superior officers were clearly spelled out by a federal appeals court over twenty years ago. "The primary function of the military chaplain is to engage in activities designed to meet the religious needs of a pluralistic military community," the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals wrote in 1985, in Katcoff v Marsh. Army chaplains were hired to serve military personnel "who wish to use them," the Court observed; they are not authorized "to proselytize soldiers or their families." Proselytizing by chaplains or the officer corps is a discriminatory, unconstitutional endorsement of religion that results in the religious harassment of our military personnel.

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/newsletters/2009-03/inbox1.html

[Iowa]

19. Thank you. That was good information. nt

[polmaven]

68. Oh, thank you.

Yet another reason for the haters to do some anti-religion proselytizing of their own.

[krabigirl]

101. True, but we have no fucking business doing that over there. WTF

[4lbs]

14. Christians trying to convert hardcore Muslims in areas where they hate them.

What could possibly go wrong?

:sarcasm:

[immoderate]

24. !

-imm

[imdjh]

94. Hey, the Muslims converted them from whatever they were centuries ago.

It's not like it hasn't happened before. But unless we're willing to do it at the end of a sword, then we might consider simply trying to neuter Islam instead of planting Christianity.

Yeah, I'm a dreamer. I have this fantasy of a thousand praying people suddenly realizing en masse that it's bullshit and rising up and tearing down temples brick by brick.

[Lars39]

16. I still wonder what Franklin Graham was doing in Iraq not long after the invasion,

or if any soldiers died to protect him.

[Joe Bacon]

76. Franky's "Samaritan's Purse" was scooping up the cash

That crook was doing what he always does--scooping up as much cash as he can that his Republican Pals were sending out. Amazing that the party that promised a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage had corrupted itself to the point where now every preacher gets a Rolls in their garage an chateaubriand on their dinner table, while the rest of us get the shaft...

[Baby Snooks]

85. Not his father's son....

There is a great divide between Billy Graham and his son and Billy Graham from time to time was careful to "disassociate" himself from the "televangelists" and particularly with regard to Jerry Falwell.

He also "disassociated" himself from the supposed "conversion" of George W Bush in an interview with MSNBC which was interesting to say the least. If George W Bush "found god" it wasn't with Billy Graham.

[Lars39]

92. There was a tent-revival preacher involved,iirc...can't remember his name.

[No Elephants]

137. I think Lee Atwater led Bush to see the light.of Jesus: Christians were ripe

for exploitation and the Republicans should jump in and exploit them. And verily, George understood Lee, as did Abramoff, Reed and a multitude of others. And they thought that it was good. For them, of course. And it was.

But Christians have since caught on, I think. Kuo helped. I think they are ready to vote third party or to vote on more than one or two issues.

[HughMoran]

18. Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses

KILLING IN THE NAME (RATM)


Killing in the name of!
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Huh!

Killing in the name of!
Killing in the name of

And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
But now you do what they told ya
Well now you do what they told ya

Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites

Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Uggh!

Killing in the name of!
Killing in the name of

And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control (7 times)
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya!

Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
Come on!

Yeah! Come on!

Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Motherfucker!
Uggh!

[xchrom]

20. somebody really doesn't get what i means to be a follwer of christ --

"The special forces guys - they hunt men basically. We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down," he says.


please stop speaking for christ of that's how you see it -- leave your bible and collar at the door.

[imdjh]

21. Morons. We should be spreading atheism.

[No Elephants]

61. We should not be spreading anything. We should be interfering with the culture as little as humanly

possible, while we try to locate Al Qaida members and training camps.

[imdjh]

88. I disagree. Culture is the reason we are there.

[No Elephants]

89. I used the word "should," though. "Should" indicates that I was describing things as I think

they ought to be--not as they are. So maybe you agree that we "should" be affecting their culture as little as humanly possible?

[imdjh]

93. No. I think their culture is ultimately the reason we are there.

If their culture was modern and sophisticated, and their government was sound, then we would not be there. If Afghanistan were a dustier version of Sweden, would we be there?

[No Elephants]

95. Clearly, you did not understand my post. Are you in favor of disrupting their culture? If not, we

agree. If you are in favor of disrupting it, we don't agree. Again, the word "should" is not synonymous with words like "is" or "are."

[imdjh]

99. It depends on what you mean by culture I suppose

If you mean that we should end slavery, subjugation of women, murder of gay people, and empower people with the right to not be under the thumb of religious fundamentalism- then yeah, I think we should disrupt their culture. But I don't think it should be done by spreading Christianity. I think it should be done by a deliberate, orderly and positive education program which teaches the people about the outside world and modern standards of personal freedom and responsibility. Part of that would probably take the ultimate form of discrediting their religious leaders, since they impose government on these people through the ancient methods of oppressive religious indoctrination.

[No Elephants]

118. You are assuming that they don't know about the outside world and/or modern

standards of personal freedom and responsibilty?

I don't think we have the right to invade a country we want to change its culture (or its religion) any more than I think we have a right to invade it for "regime change." I think that is a startling notion and one that most probably violates international law. So, I was mistaken: You and I do not agree.

[Nihil]

127. It depends whether that "dustier version of Sweden" was rich in oil, gas and opium.

If the answer was "Yes it is rich in oil, gas & opium", then
you can count on it that you would be there. Unless, of course,
they were not only rich in natural resources but also had a
well-trained & well-equipped army (or a nuclear missile or two).

If you can't see that then you are acting from misplaced "faith"
every bit as much as the fanatics who kill "the different" in
any other country around the world.

:shrug:

[CrawlingChaos]

112. Excuse me but..

..the reasons we are there are pipelines and poppy fields.

[Wednesdays]

73. Hello, Mr. Fifth Column

:hi:

[Revolution9]

22. this angers me.

eom.

[The abyss]

23. Nice to know that the religiously insane

and the crusades are still with us.

[Nosmanic]

25. Doh

These acts undermine our efforts there. And muslims there will see this are the 'real' reason for the invasion.

[hayu_lol]

27. What they are spreading...

are death sentences under Sharia Law. Muslims who convert are considered apostate and can be put to death.

Is LT. General Jerry Boykin involved in this in any way?

[Fedja]

39. That depends

Islam in general sees Christianity as a misguided sister religion. Proper Sharia law tolerates any of the main monotheistic religions and believes that Allah is BibleGod, but that the Jesus story is a bit of a stretch.

In general, they tend to impose a financial tax on non-muslims. Now... any law going all out death sentence crazy on any social deviation isn't Sharia law. It's warlord law.

[14thColony]

50. I'll see your depends and raise you another one

Jews and Christians are to be respected as fellow 'People of the Book', and not subject to forced conversion, as long as they were either born Christian or Jewish, or converted from one of the non-monotheistic religions, such as Hinduism. If a person converted from Islam to Christianity or Judaism, and certain specific conditions are met (must be an adult, with full mental capability, not under threat of harm or death at the time) then that person may be guilty of apostasy.

The consensus view in Sharia law, and among the four great schools of law, is that apostasy is a sin. The great jurists have historically differed on whether apostasy was punishable by death, or punishable at all (at least in this life) at the hands of man. Shia scholars tend to view apostasy as something which only God is permitted to punish in the afterlife, although some modern Sunni judges have issued rulings along the same lines. But the weight of Sharia law and accumulated jurisprudence falls on the side of apostasy being a sin that humans are permitted to punish in God's name, usually (but not always) by death. Historically though, the death sentence for apostasy is rarely carried out.

[Baby Snooks]

77. The covenants...

Muslims believe in the covenants. The covenant with Abraham was broken by the Jews. The covenant with Jesus was broken by the Christians. So a third and final convenant was made with Mohammed.

True believers follow Islam because Muslims have kept their convenant. That is oversimplifying the belief but pretty much sums it up.

Those who do not follow Islam are "non-believers" rather than "infidels" and as long as Jews and Christians are "righteous" they are "respected." They are "respected" to a degree. But shunned as well.

The standard of "righteousness" of course is adherence to Islamic standards of "righteousness" which are actually rooted in standards of the Old Testament of the Bible which Muslims do believe in and do believe is "inerrant" as is the New Testament to some degree. If I recall correctly they accept Jesus as a prophet but reject the disciples and in that sense there is a question raised about the validity of the New Testament. In a way, the Qu'ran is merely "clarification" of the Bible. When one does not live in adherence to the standards they are "infidels" and are an affront to Islam. And many Muslims are considered "infidels" as well. It's not the matter of belief but of lack of adherence to the standards of the faith. The faith is rooted in the convenants.

Can a Jew or Christian be redeemed and find paradise? Of course. If they are righteous and abide by their covenant with god.

The problem is in Islamic fundamentalism, the standard is so high even many Muslims cannot live up to it. The Taliban represents the absolute extremism of Islam and the best example of the extremism is the destruction of the Buddhas. Islam is the only standard in fundamentalism. And in fundamentalism, Sha'ria is is the absolute law.

And it is exacting and it is brutal. And apostasy is punishable by death particularly if committed by a convert. It is a major issue in child custody for many women who converted. The fear is the woman will raise the children in apostasy and deny them their "right" in terms of the covenant.

What is interesting is that Mormons believe the same thing. That their covenant with god is the "final" one that was offered because everyone else had broken their covenant and rejected the "redemption" offered by god through Jesus Christ.

The angel that appeared to Joseph Smith of course is similar to the angel that appeared to Mohammed. Revelation was given to both by the angel. To save us all through a final covenant.

And of course there is the matter of polygamy. Also rooted in the Old Testament. Just conveniently "edited" out through the centuries.

As has been the matter of eunuchs since of course you cannot condemn homosexuality while enjoying the sexual pleasures of the eunuchs. A man blessed by god was blessed by all that chattel law allowed him. Including the eunuchs who were the most favored of those who served him.

When Christians talk about the "old time religion" they really have no idea what a can of worms they are opening.

[No Elephants]

63. Bringing a bible into some Muslim countries breaks the law. I am really tired of hearing how

this or that is not "real" Islam.

[Fedja]

106. In some christian countries, waterboarding is not torture.

I'm tired of hearing about local legislature being indicative of a set of religious values.

I understand that the pompous media may be a burden, but do try to think out of the tiny box every once in a while.

[No Elephants]

117. You mean the tiny box that prompted you to post that?

[Fedja]

123. Such a weak dodge

I wouldn't want to presume on whether you're one of the 80% of Americans without a passport or not, but your statement was a pick of a tiny factoid expanded to an argument that valued a whole religion. You're aparently tired of hearing about different applications of Islam, based on the fact that you've been told that at this very point in time, some states have a particular law in effect.

Honestly, I think me challenging that line of reasoning doesn't paint me as narrow-minded.

[No Elephants]

126. Dodge what? I was responding to a semi-coherent, post that made an unprovoked

personal attack. Under those circumstances, I think my reply showed great strength of character in that I only turned back on you your own attack on me and did not add that your post was incomprehensible. (This more recent post of yours is only slightly more coherent. Passports? State law? wtf?)

A quick search of DU indicates that that personal attacks are your posting preference. They are not mine. They are usually intellectually bankrupt, not to mention boring. However, if repeatedly provoked unjustifiably, I am able to respond in kind.

BTW, if you learn to read what a post actually says instead of what you assume it says, you'll probably improve both your reading and your writing. I am not sure if your insight and reasoning will improve as well, but one can always hope.

[davidthegnome]

26. Sad

Depending on which version of Christianity they follow - some of them actually DO believe it's their duty to shove Christ down everyone's throat. I'm not saying that excuses their actions or their lack of rational thought - but if they believe they'll go to hell for NOT "spreading the word"....

It's sad all around. It's sad that something such as Christianity - a following of a man who was certainly peaceful, kind, tolerant and generous...(at least according to the bible) has become so warped by those who are the opposite. It's sad that these people have to defend their own sanity from bible thumping nitwits.

Christianity should require more than simply professing to believe in Christ. It should require honest attempts to be Christ-like. I really can't see "Christ the Salesman". I don't think he'd be trying to promote himself, were he even alive today, if he even existed to begin with.

Please understand that I'm speaking here, in a general reference to right-wing Christians, who sadly seem to have conquered Christianity and now attempt to claim it as theirs exclusively.

It's just sad that so often now Christian is almost synonymous with words like: selfish, hateful, ignorant, bigoted.

Oh well, I'm rambling...

Just another reason not to be fond of organized religion, I guess.

[No Elephants]

65. Many Christians believe in the so-called Great Commission, which is to spread the "good news"

that Christ died for our sins around the world.

A verse in the NT that gives that directive, at least in the form that the NT has come to us.


If I were to be cynical, I'd say including it in the NT was prudent because it helps get people to donate for preaching, both locally and by missionaries.

[Zhade]

109. I don't see any "good news" in self-imposed mental slavery.

But that's just me, a person who likes to control his own mind.

[No Elephants]

119. Mind control is a separate issue from telling people that they no longer have to

sacrifice goats or keep kosher in order to redeem themselves from sin, which was the point of the Great Commission.

But keeping issues separate matters only if an authentic discussion is the goal.

[Froward69]

28. This is just an extension

of other areas. Like the exclusion of other religions from the Air Force Academy. that is to say all of the "diversity" for the last few years there in Colorado springs, has been different brands of evangelical Christianity. As well as pressure to convert from what ever to Christianity.

[defendandprotect]

29. The "Crusade" is still on -- introducing the cross with the sword . . .!!!

[Raksha]

43. The cross with the sword - that's what's REALLY scary!

Not only does it never work, it has a backlash that lasts for centuries.

[No Elephants]

75. Both Islam and Christianity have used the sword to" win souls."

[defendandprotect]

136. I should have put that in quotes - it was a Castro comment, long ago --

[InfiniteThoughts]

30. never been a great fan of christian missionaries

they are like virus ... they get into a place and destroy the indigenous culture of the place. Having experience their duplicity first hand, i think they are doing a dis-service to the message of Jesus.

[Syntheto]

58. I agree! I dislike all these religious charlatans including...

Hindu, Islam, Judaism, Wicca and all the other bullshit 'religions' that base their ultimate authority on some sort of Easter Bunny in the sky; and then to be willing to kill someone else for it. There is no God, Allah, Jehovah or the Easter Bunny. It's time to move on from that nonsense.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. There's an article about this in the current issue of Harper's

By the way, mainstream missionaries no longer proselytize in Muslim territory.

[stopbush]

32. I must disagree with all of the Xian apologists who say these guys aren't

acting like real Xians.

Whatever happened to The Great Commission? You know, that little bit of instruction Jesus supposedly left for his followers? It appears in every gospel and Acts as well. From Matthew:

(18) And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Embrace the horror, Xians. These guys are doing EXACTLY what Jesus told them to do.

Now, I disagree with their actions. They are American military, and they need to act with America's best interest in mind before the interest of their religion.

But to accuse them of not doing what Jesus ordered every Xian to do is simply wrong.

[Raksha]

45. Yeah, but did Jesus ever say to do it against their will?

To ram his teachings down their throats whether they wanted them or not?

(18) And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Besides, we're talking about the very same people who routinely twist and misinterpret what Jesus commanded, as recently demonstrated by the survey showing they were the most likely to rationalize TORTURE!!!

[SkyIsGrey]

70. That is what beliefs gets for oneself ....

twisted reality.

Smoke the "Opiate".

Choices always were a problem for you
What you need is someone strong to guide you

Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
What you need is someone strong to guide you...
Like me
Like me
Like me
Like me

If you want to get your soul to heaven
Trust in me, now don't you judge or question
You are broken now, but faith can heal you
Just do everything i tell you to do

Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
What you need is someone strong to guide you
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
Let me lay my holy hand a, hand upon you


My god's will
Becomes me
When he speaks
He speaks through me
He has needs
Like i do
We both want
To rape you

Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your light, now
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your lies, now

If you want to get your soul to heaven
Trust in me, now don't you judge or question
You are broken now, but faith can heal you
Just do everything i tell you to do
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your light, now
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your lies, now

Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
Let me lay my holy hand a, hand upon you

My god's will
Becomes me
When he speaks
He speaks through me
He has needs
Like i do
We both want
To rape you!

[krabigirl]

102. Yep, they are. Doesn't mean it's right, though.

[No Elephants]

128. That is only one interpretation of the great commission, not the only possible one.

I agree with Poster Raksha (Post 45) that nothing in the great commission requires coercion. In fact, IMO, nothing in the words attributed to Jesus suggests that Christians should be coercive. To the contrary, many preacher stress that Jesus taught more by example and by invitation than anything else--that he never forced himself on anyone. In that context, I've heard more than one preacher refer to Jesus as "a gentleman" (Some of these same preachers are also sometimes coercive is beyond me, but that is on them, not on Jesus. I understand though that they truly believe they are trying to prevent someone from burning in hell for eternity, a pretty terrible fate. So, they may feel coercion is warranted, even if not Christ-like. Or, they may not even be conscious that their behavior in that area is not Christ-like. I don't know.)

Back to the great commission: That instruction was given when only relatively few people were familiar with the story of Jesus. Since then, the story has indeed been taught in every nation on earth. Therefore, one could take the position that the great commission has long since been fulfilled (and then some). Another reasonable interpretion of the exact language, in context, is that Jesus was instructing those who were with him at the time and only them. They are the ones to whom he was speaking and he never said he was aiming for a ponzi type scenario.

Not many Christians would agree with my second point about the great commission, but my first point is consistent with a widely held view and can be the basis for a meaningful discussion with a believer--assuming someone wants to have one.

[stopbush]

129. Perhaps they don't agree with your second point because Jesus ends his

speech by saying, "and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." It's quite easy to assume that Jesus was saying this proselytizing should continue through all generations until the end of the world, wouldn't you say?

[No Elephants]

130. Forgive me, but it's kind of silly to parse that way. We are talking about

wording that's been worked over hundreds of times and started out in Greek and Latin. And the wording of the great commission is not even identical from gospel to gospel.

However, if we are going to cut things that fine, and in the English language to boot, no, it is not quite easy to assume that the great commission was given to all generations. Just the opposite. IMO, that is a tortured construction, whether you compare it with other verses in the Bible or whether you compare it with the speech of sane people.

Those are two independent clauses, joined by the conjunction "and." It's like my saying to my son, "I'll love you unconditionally forever and I want you to do your homework." That does not mean that I want my son to do his homework forever, nor does it mean that I want his descendants two thousand years from now to do his homework. It means (a) I'll love him forever and (b) I also want him to do his homework now, one time.

Besides, when sane people talk to someone and say "you," they mean that person. No sane person says "I order you to lend me $5" and expects that each and every person who will ever be born in the future will be forking over $5.

There is no reasonable cause to assume that Jesus looked Andrew and Peter (or whomever)in the eye, said "I am with you always" but really meant Andrew, Peter, me and every person who was to call himself or herself a Christian for all eternity. (In other ways and other verses Jesus did clearly indicate that he and those who were "born again" would always be together, but there is no reason randomly to impute that to the great commission.)

Jesus also asked his disciples to bring him bread and fishes. I don't see anyone claiming that I should be showing up on "the Mount" or in church periodically with a perch and a baguette. Ditto about bringing him a donkey on Palm Sunday. I can't tell you how long it's been since I saw a donkey in the collection plate. In other words, when he ordered his disciples and no one else, by gum, he meant his disciples and no one else.

When the intention is to encompass future generations, the Bible does say things like "nigh unto the tenth generation" or "seed" or other words of similar import. It doesn't say "you."

[stopbush]

131. Well, it's all make believe anyway, isn't it?

There's no proof whatsoever that Jesus or his disciples actually existed, and there are no original texts to consult on any of the Gospels, only copies of copies of copies centuries removed from the originals. So, it's whatever one wants it to be. One may parse conjunctions, OR, one may just as easily toss the whole thing as being a Bronze-Aged fiction, written in the childhood of our species development.

In this particular case, I don't think that "telling it to the Marines" would shake their belief in a literal Bible that they assume is god's word that was given on Day One and has been transmitted intact through the centuries with nary a mistake. Nor would they believe it's basically myth treated as fact.

[No Elephants]

132. Depends. Even if there is no proof that a person named Jesus existed,

there are words attributed to him. And whether those words were uttered by one person or are a composite of some kind, those words are the basis for the religion. Of course, those words are subject to many interpretations. Still, the words attributed to Jesus certainly do exist.

I think you are mistaken as to the disciples, though. I think there is evidence (outside the Bible) that at least some of them existed. I could be wrong, though. For purposes of my own beliefs, it is not important.

[stopbush]

133. IIRC, there's no extra-Biblical proof for the disciples, either.

They are mentioned in Paul's epistles, but Paul's epistles were written before any of the Gospels. And, it's hard to know if Paul believed that the apostles knew Jesus as a corporeal being. as Paul himself said that Jesus was seen only in visions (ie: as Paul himself saw him on the road to Damascus). Even if Paul knew people who said they knew Jesus, those are hearsay accounts at best. Most telling, Paul never references a single Earthly event in Jesus' life as depicted in the Gospels. One would think that would be something he'd be sure to do IF Jesus was a real person.

As far as "the words attributed to Jesus certainly do exist," well, Sydney Carton's "words" also exist. They exist because Dickens thought them up, attributed them to Sydney Carton and wrote them down. That doesn't in any way, shape or form mean that Sydney Carton actually existed.

[No Elephants]

140. I think you may need to read my post again. I never even implied that

existence of the words the the NT attributes to Jesus proves that Jesus himself existed. I did not even claim that the words were indeed the words of a man named Jesus, or even of a single man. I even referred to the possibility of "a composite of some kind." From your reply, though, I have to wonder just how many preconceived notions you were holding onto when you read my post.

Without taking away in the least from what I (actually) said hundreds of thousands of people, at the very least--probably more like millions--must have existed on this planet two thousand years ago, more or less, yet I have no proof of more than a fraction of those people. No birth certificates, no tombstones, no photos or videos, no autographs, no names, no quotations, no parents' names, no stories about birth or death, attending weddings, just nothing, nothing, nothing . Am I amazed by that? No. It's just a big "duh, of course I have no proof." Does it mean none of those people ever existed after all? No.

But, as I said, I stand on what my prior post really said, namely, regardless of the actual source of the words attributed to Jesus, those words are the basis for the religion. Although I've always wondered about cursing a fig tree, the great majority of those words are good words to live by. Indeed, I wish more people lived by them, whether they believe a single individual named Jesus ever existed or not.

As far as the disciples, SOMEone wrote the Book of Revelation and someone kept oral histories going until they were written down. For that matter, realistically we really have now way of knowing for certain when any gospel was first written, so I don't know how anyone asserts that the epistles of Paul were written first. (Seems to me logic does not fly out the window on only one side of the discussions about Jesus.)

[stopbush]

141. The dating of Paul's writings and the Gospels has been established

to time frames via the mention in those books of documented historical events. For instance, when Jesus says of the Temple of Jerusalem in John's Gospel, "destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up," that's a reference to the actual destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70CE. This is a retrofitting of an actual event onto the gospel story to make it look like Jesus, 1. prophesied the temple's destruction, and, 2. made a veiled prophecy about his own death and resurrection. It also let's us know that John's Gospel couldn't have been written before 70CE.

In addition, these words appear only in John's Gospel. They do not appear in the three synoptic Gospels which scholars have established as being written before John but after Paul. There are many books and online reference sites that discuss how scholars determine these things.

As to Jesus' words being the basis of a religion - yes, and that's the problem. I don't find anything particularly appealing about what Jesus had to say, and it goes well beyond his cursing of that poor fig tree. I'd start with his total ignorance of science and the way the natural world actually works, a lack of knowledge that puts Jesus in the same category as the dimwitted creationists we find in our world today. One would imagine that the god who created it all wouldn't reference old wives tales like the story of Adam & Eve to explain how man came to be on Earth.

Imagine for a second if Jesus had averred that illness was caused by invisible organisms, rather than averring that illness was a sign that god was displeased with a person. Imagine if anything Jesus had said in regards to the natural world had to wait centuries to be confirmed, rather than what he said reinforcing the myths and fears that were rampant during his day, only to be proven wrong by mere mortals mere centuries after he had said it.

Then, there's Jesus' assaults on the family, the self aggrandizement, the pushing of the self-loathing belief that man was a "fallen" being in need of "redemption," a redemption that he and only he could provide. I have a problem with Jesus' assertions that people who hear of him but don't believe in him will be consigned to an eternity of unending torture, a fate that Yahweh never visited upon the enemies of Israel in the OT (said enemies were simply exterminated in god's various genocidal acts and that was it - end of existence, period).

There's also Jesus' belief that the OT law would be in force until the end of the Earth, for along with that law comes the treatment of women as property, the warrant to have your children stoned to death for sassing back to you and the innumerable stupidities and the ghoulish acts of revenge and retribution that the Bible DEMANDS be exacted upon people who are DIFFERENT from god's chosen.

You're welcome to it. I'll pass, as a human being and as a parent.

[Bette Noir]

33. Will someone please tell me this chaplain was fired?

[Joe Bacon]

34. Madison was right--NO chaplains in any armed forces.

Madison refused to commission them and Obama should follow the example set by the Father of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and remove them from all military positions!

[Thothmes]

54. Do not think he has the authority.

Some years ago, the Supreme Court determined that the Armed Services had an obligation to provide Chaplins for personnel under the 1st Amendment to the Consitituion. I am unable to cite the case.

[14thColony]

122. Also

The Constitution specifically grants Congress the authority to raise, fund, and regulate the armed forces. One could argue then that using its power to regulate the armed forces only Congress can authorize the chaplain corps' existence, not the president.

[Thothmes]

134. Thanks.

[happyslug]

108. But Washington did, before and after the adoption of the Bill of Rights

And the armed forces have had Chaplains since Colonial times, during before and after Madison's term in Office of President and in Congress.

Now Madison did oppose LEGISLATIVE Chaplains, and invoked Military chaplains in his opposition to legislative Chaplains. While Madison also oppose Military Chaplains I can NOT find any statement that he refused to give them Commissions:
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions64.html
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions64.html

In fact during the War of 1812, Madison DID grant Military Commissions to Chaplains (See page 185 of the following paper, as a PDF file it is page 41), Thus he DID commission Military Chaplains.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/lawreview/v102/n1/145/LR102n1Olree.pdf

Through it should be noted, Madison later called Military Chaplains unconsitutional, but that was AFTER Madison was out of office and the comment was made as part of a article he wrote against LEGISLATIVE Chaplains.

[tomm2thumbs]

35. another reason that this war needs to end sooner than later - Iraq as well

[Diane R]

36. This makes me sick. I am so tired of Christians who want to ram their religion down our throats.

[keitai]

37. Time to get the popcorn out, put the feet up...

And see if the administration will actually do anything...

[bushmeister0]

38. The hound of heaven?

"Get the hound of heaven after them, so we get them into the kingdom."

I have an idea. Since this lunatic is so concerned about getting the the Afghanis into the kingdom, how about the agents of the great hound stop killing them in so many "accidental" incidents until they're all saved and ready to enter the kingdom?

[Fedja]

40. hrm

Maybe they're just dispatching the ones that met jebus?

[bushmeister0]

41. Good point. They have Jebus seeking missiles, now! Who knew?

Looks like the Talibs are safe. That tends to explain the trouble we're having getting a handle on the problem.

[Raksha]

42. That's absolutely outrageous!

No wonder the Muslims call American troops "Crusaders."

[madrchsod]

44. well that`s not very helpful to win the hearts and minds......

i really do`t think that jesus wanted people to kill in his name...."cannibal christians,they suffer so"

[jennied]

46. They should all be relieved of duty. What bullshit.

[puebloknot]

47. And the hatred this stirs puts all the troops over there in greater danger. nt

[MilesColtrane]

48. And I just thought she was just some insane harpy on T.V.

I didn't know that she was formulating official foreign policy then.

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."-Ann Coulter

[Tx4obama]

49. What they should be

spreading is Bill Maher's "Religulous" film link instead:

http://realtimewithbillmaher.blogspot.com/

.

[moggie]

51. Couldn't the Commander in Chief stop this nonsense with a single order? n/t

[No Elephants]

72. Maybe, maybe not. But he should give the order.

[Hubert Flottz]

52. Soon the gubmint will need to have an extra snake round-up

in Texas just to keep the new converts abroad supplied...Holy Shit!

[OneBlueSky]

53. "But Jesus TOLD me to bomb that village in order to SAVE it!" . . .

this whole trend is beyond scary -- it's also immoral, unethical, and illegal . . . trying to "save" indigenous people from their "heathen" beliefs is bad enough; trying to convert believers of the some of the planet's largest religions is simply abhorrent . . .

Jesus, please save us from your followers! . . .

[Turborama]

55. The phrase "their own worst enemy" comes to mind.

Video of this this story: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x307492

[Syntheto]

56. Disgusting! That's as bas as...

...the imans preaching to their respective herd to go commit suicide bombing or to go to America and fly planes into buildings. Get rid of Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha and all the rest! As the song says: "Imagine no religion, I wonder if you can... nothing to kill or die for, a brotherhood of man.."

[No Elephants]

78. Much as I think chaplains are overstepping, no, giving someone a Bible after you buy a carpet is NOT

as bad as killing him.

[mwb970]

57. This makes me sick.

Our military people are not Holy Warriors For Christ. I am appalled at the way this dreadful, intrusive religion gets its hands all over everything America tries to do as a country. If I were a Christian, I would be ashamed, if Christians were capable of shame.

[No Elephants]

120. Why would you be ashamed if you were Christian? Are you ashamed whenever any atheist does some-

thing you consider undesirable? I heartily disapprove of what the OP describes, but I feel no personal shame about it. I mean, how many Christians are there on the planet? If I were to feel shame every time one of them did something of which I disapproved, I would soon be suicidal. Same for any religion, though.

And my observation is that Christians are quite capable of shame. Perhaps over things that you and I may thing ought not cause them shame, but they nonetheless seem to excel at feeling shame.

IMO, Christianity is not a dreadful religion, but some who self-identify as Christians behave badly. In that, I agree with Ghandi.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Mohandas Gandhi

However, unlike Ghandi, I have met some lovely Christians. I don't, however, consider the intrusive variety lovely.

[mwb970]

121. If I were a lovely Christian, I would be ashamed at the way some Christians act.

I would be worried that people might judge me by their actions.

[No Elephants]

124. Those are two very different issues. I can be worried about being judged without

feeling personal shame and vice versa.

However, one could (and IMO should) certainly condemn the actions of this chaplain without condemning ALL Christians and all of Christianity, right? Isn't judging one person by the actions another simply because both are members of the same huge group, be it a racial, ethnic or religious group, is called things like bigotry or intolerance, isn't it?

So, I am supposed to feel shame for every action of 670 million people on the planet because a bigot might judge me wrongly? I don't think so.

[Shara Merten]

59. Christianity and Jesus

There are just talkings about the Christianity and Jesus thoughts. In actual no one is following the teaching of jesus. Everything is so selfish, proudy and inhuman.

Bajar Musica Latina Gratis

[ColbertWatcher]

60. This doesn't sound new to me ...

... the GOP has done this before didn't they?



The two sides of a coin showing Christian proselytizing phrases written in Arabic script are shown in this composite image taken 30 May, 2008.

The coin was distributed by a U.S. Marine at a checkpoint controlling access to the city of Fallujah, Iraq.

The left photo reads:

'Where will you spend eternity?'

The right:

'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.'

[secondwind]

64. as soon as Baghdad fell, Falwell declared he wanted to send 1,500 missionaries into Iraq! n/t

[saigon68]

67. Juba "the Sniper" would have culled that herd

Falwell the Hateful right wing bigot.

That POS used to sell videos of the Gay Pride parades with commentary to show the "Filthy lifestyle" to his flock

[No Elephants]

79. When Russia first opened up, it was flooded with missionaries. Madalyn Murray O'Hair (sp?)went too.

[The Wizard]

69. Here's what should be circulated

"Welcome to JesusLand! (Formerly the United States of America): Shocking Tales of Depravity, Sex, and Sin Uncovered by God's Favorite Church, Landover Baptist" (Paperback)
by Chris Harper (Author), Andrew Bradley (Author), Erik Walker (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446697583/landoverbaptist

[Vinca]

71. On the other hand,

imagine a Jehovah's Witness knocking on a militant Taliban door.:rofl:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

83. Poor Talibans

Those tents and caves don't even have a slammable door. What's their defense against the JW?
:hi:

[Swede Atlanta]

74. Worse than the Taliban

As a practicing Christian I have said for a long-time that misguided Christianity has done more harm to humanity than any other religious or spiritual movement in history. Let's take a small sampling

- Crusades
- Persecution of Jews and others during the Black Death
- Spanish Inquisition and the "Burning Years" in Europe
- Death to millions in New World as Europeans attempted to Christianize them
- Russian progroms against the Jews
- Salem witchtrials
- Persecution of Mormons for their faith
- Slavery in the U.S.
- Hitler (an espoused Christian) and his extermination of Jews, homosexuals and other "undesireables"
- Catholics and others turn a blind eye or conspire to what was known to be happening under Hitler
- Denigration and killing of blacks, hispanics, gays and other minorities

I fear that many of these so-called Christians will have a very rude awakening when they apply to enter heaven. Their application will be stamped, "Application Denied".

[No Elephants]

80. Muslims, pagans and atheists have not all been saints in that respect, either. Those who want to

force their spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) on others are the problem. The particular belief is not the issue.

[Strong Atheist]

81. Typical arrogant shithead.

:puke:

[No Elephants]

82. The much-maligned wiki has an article on General Order No. One. You may

find it interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Order_No._1

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

84. This is a shocking change from a prior army ...

When I was in, way back before dirt, Chaplains didn't really push Jesus. I think they were happily surprised anytime they weren't ignored.

This just seems bizaare.

:wtf:

[Bragi]

90. I predict nothing will happen as a result of this

No investigation, no punishment, nothing will happen, other than reinforcing among Muslims the idea that the US is on a crusade.

[atreides1]

96. "We do, we hunt them down,"

And then we bomb their huts!!!!

[snowdays]

97. UPDATE: U.S. denies letting troops convert Afghans Reuters

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090504/ts_nm/us_afghanistan_proselytising


U.S. denies letting troops convert Afghans
Reuters



........But a U.S. military spokeswoman, Major Jennifer Willis, said the comments from the sermon were taken out of context and chaplains were told to make clear to soldiers that they could not proselytize while serving.



She said the bibles had been mailed to a soldier by a church back home in the United States and were never distributed.

"That specific case involved a soldier who brought in a donation of translated bibles that were sent to his personal address by his home church. He showed them to the group and the chaplain explained that he cannot distribute them," she said.

"The translated bibles were never distributed as far as we know, because the soldier understood that if he distributed them he would be in violation of general order 1, and he would be subject to punishment."

She said she was aware of at least one case of a soldier who had been punished for giving out coins that had biblical inscriptions on them.

Trying to convert Muslims to any other faith is a crime in Afghanistan. An Afghan man who converted to Christianity was sentenced to death for apostasy in 2006 but was allowed to leave the country after an international uproar.

[nichomachus]

98. Does anyone remember the bathtub story

Early in the days of the invasion -- either of Iraq or Afghanistan -- there was a wacko Christian chaplain (pardon the redundancy) who had a portable bathtub. It was one of those canvas jobs that you set up and filled with water. He would let soldiers use it to clean themselves up after days in the heat and dust -- but only if they agreed to be baptized while in the tub.

This is the mentality we're working with.

[Karenina]

110. Yes, I remember and iirc that was in Iraq

when the soldiers didn't have enough water.

[krabigirl]

100. Yep, it's the crusades. It's been obvious since it started to me.

[marshall]

105. They should be satisfied to lead by example

Show the true message of Christ.

[Hepburn]

107. GMAFB.....

....:puke:

WWJbomb?

[CraftyGal]

111. Oh dear.....

and here we go!

[damntexdem]

113. Really, what's Jesus been charged with?

Oh, that type of 'witness.' Hmm, that's really going to win Afghan hearts and minds -- for the Taliban. Aside from being unconstitutional, the policy is just plain stupid. (Oh, I guess that DOES explain it.)

[Pacifist Patriot]

114. As someone who contemplated military chaplaincy I can tell you this man is violating his mandate.

He needs to be disciplined.

[zelta gaisma]

115. why can't xtians just..

live and let live? is that so hard? proselytizing should be outlawed by the human race

[PassingFair]

125. Let individual missionaries lose their lives as they see fit.

They take their chances....

What angers me is this is our MILITARY
pulling this shit.

We are PAYING for this.

That "chaplain" should be removed.

[Chovexani]

139. People have turned a blind eye to this for too long

The radicalization of the US military chaplaincy is something that's been going on for a long time, and we see the fruit of that labor now. RW fundies have made a concerted effort to take over the institution for years now and it has not really been getting much press. Now they have almost an absolute stranglehold over it.

Expect more stories like this to come out in the future.