Arrested at 13 for a murder he didn't commit, US man freed after 16 years in prison

[depakid]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald


Free at last ... Thaddeus Jimenez hugs his goddaughter Danielle on the night of his release from the Hill Correctional Centre in Galesburg, Illinois.
-----------------

Arrested at 13 for a murder he didn't commit, Thaddeus Jimenez spent more than 16 years in jail before his conviction was tossed out and the man originally fingered for the crime was arrested. Jimenez is believed to be the youngest person convicted of a crime who has been exonerated in the United States.

He was tried as an adult and sentenced to 45 years in jail -- despite the fact that an alleged accomplice in the murder insisted that another teen been the shooter and that police were provided with a tape in which that teen confessed. According to news reports, prosecutors have charged Juan Carlos Torres, mpw 30, with the murder, and have filed papers for his extradition from Indiana, where he now resides.

Meanwhile, Jimenez, also 30, who went to prison baredly in his teens, returned to his mother's arms Friday a grown man. "Oh my God I can't believe it. I can't believe he's here," Victoria Jimenez sobbed as she wrapped her arms around her son. Jimenez clutched a piece of paper as he walked up to a podium in Chicago Monday to thank his family and his lawyers for working so hard to get him free. "You'll have to excuse me if I fumble some of my words. I'm a little bit nervous," he told reporters.

"I'm happy to be alive today," he said as his mother wiped tears from her eyes and clutched his sister's hand. "There are many more innocent men, women and children still in prison today. I hope my case can be studied and used to prevent other defendants -- especially juveniles -- from having to endure what I had to endure."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/convicted-as-a-teen-us-man-freed-after-16-years-in-prison-20090505-atge.html?page=-1

---

Not hard to see why other nations look at America's juvenile "justice" system and consider it barbaric....

[RomanHoliday]

1. Damn, it sucks he lost so many years of his life over a mistake.

He better get some sweet reparations.

[Skittles]

3. also

it really drives home the point that physical evidence is much more worthy than confessions and "eyewitness testimony"

[blueknight]

27. my father in law

has been a lawyer 40 years/ he has always contended a eye witness is the worst witness

[Berry Cool]

28. There are times when there is no direct physical evidence that serves as a true "smoking gun"

and the only choice a jury has is to convict or not convict based on circumstantial evidence.

These verdicts can be just as accurate as verdicts based on 100% positive evidence linking a person to a crime. In fact, they have to be in the case of a murder charge because otherwise the whole "reasonable doubt" issue comes into play. But it's possible to convict a person of murder with nothing but circumstantial evidence and yet experience no "reasonable doubt" as to what happened.

It sure doesn't seem like that's what happened here, though. On the contrary, there was quite a bit of reasonable doubt. Makes you wonder how a jury could convict at all...unless some of the evidence pointing to someone else was withheld for some reason.

[pnwmom]

5. Not a mistake. Prosecutorial malpractice.

"He was tried as an adult and sentenced to 45 years in jail -- despite the fact that an alleged accomplice in the murder insisted that another teen been the shooter and that police were provided with a tape in which that teen confessed."

[DollyM]

9. I agree, there are not "mistakes" in this system, just egotistic idiots!

My husband and I were foster parents and had a teenage girl in our home accuse my husband of molesting her after we had grounded her several times for her conduct. My husband was arrested and charged based on her statement even though their were obvious holes in her ever changing story. We couldn't believe how things went "missing" like a letter from the girls best friend saying she was lying. It is a big game with the judicial system, it is all about who wins and it doesn't matter whose life they ruin. We lost all faith in the police and the legal system after that.

[JonLP24]

10. Exactly

It is truly more about winning then finding out the truth.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RushIsRot]

21. Welcome to DU! May your stay be long and filled with teaching

experiences for you, learning experiences for us and shared wisdom for the entire group.

[Enthusiast]

23. +1, plazzamd nt

[pnwmom]

11. Sorry you had to go through that. No wonder

they have trouble getting good foster parents.

[DollyM]

60. we had been foster parents for 11 successful years before this . . .

We both had counseling degrees and thought we could use our education and experience to really help some kids. It wasn't all bad, we did have some very good successes and they gave us the "tough" kids because they knew we were good with them. But this was like the perfect storm, we had a new social worker, a new DA and a new family court judge, all wanting to make a big splash and a name for themselves. All the good we had done suddenly didn't matter. That was 12 years ago and we still bear the emotional and financial scars from it. (The charges were eventually dropped and the case sealed but the damage to our reputation, my husband's job from which he was terminated and our finances, was already done.)

[blueknight]

29. sorry to say

but thats EXACTLY the reason we would never take in foster kids

[pattmarty]

37. Yeah, as in so many cases (of no money defendants) check mark............

.................case closed/solved. The police get another "solved" crime, the prosecutor gets another "solved" case, and the white population see another "dark skinned" trouble maker out of their neighborhood. WHAT A FUCKING COUNTRY!!!!!!

[LiberalFighter]

39. Those that knew should be prosecuted. Those that were involved and didn't care should be prosecuted.

[surrealAmerican]

82. You know what else sucks?

The actual murderer was free and facing no repercussions for all this time despite the evidence against him. I feel very sorry for this guy though, he was robbed of a significant portion of his life.

Welcome to DU.

[EFerrari]

2. Watch this BookTv segment "Picking Cotton".

A rape victim identifies her attacker and he spends 11 years in jail. Then, DNA proves he wasn't the one at all. This is a segment sponsored by the Innocence Project and the story of how this lady and this man who served that time managed to find peace and even friendship. It's amazing. And so are the other men in the audience that tell about serving many years, too, before being exonerated.

http://www.booktv.org/watch.aspx?ProgramId=LW-10287

[happygoluckytoyou]

4. sure hope the JURY and DA aren't losing any sleep over any of this

[imdjh]

53. Why would they? The witness recantations were years later. n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

62. I got the impression from this sentence that they knew from the start there...

was some question about the legitimacy of the charges.

despite the fact that an alleged accomplice in the murder insisted that another teen been the shooter and that police were provided with a tape in which that teen confessed

That makes it sound like it was at the time, not years later.

[JonLP24]

6. He could've been an adult facing the DP

The process is not dummy proof. Anything can happen to just about anyone. Sometimes being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or you can be shot and have a gun planted on you. If you think this is just in the movies look at the history of CRASH. About 50 sentences overturned and it got me wondering, how many times has this happened to other people? Also in regards to the CRASH, a judge that wanted to be nameless according to the NY Times said that during lunch breaks he could hear judges talking about something dumb the defense did or say but you never hear them say anything like that in regards to prosecutors. That judge said the justice system is a bigger problem than a currupt police force.

[cabluedem]

8. Welcome to the law-enforcement-Judicial industrial complex. What, you think juries care? The only...

thing they care about is getting out of court ASAP. Gotta keep those honest cops, judges, probation officers and prison guards employed, dontcha know? Who cares who get put into the grinder? No one, that's who. I spit on them all.

[Orrex]

43. That's a pretty broad brush

When I recently served on the jury for a murder trial, I was gratified to see that every person in the deliberation room was more interested in reaching a decision based upon the evidence than in "getting out of the court ASAP."

Your attempt at snark also suggests that you don't believe that honest cops, judges, probation officers, and prison guards really exist. What is the basis for this prejudice?


And how many juries have you served on, by the way?

[elleng]

7. The newspaper with the story is

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA!

[Wetzelbill]

14. I know I saw that

It took me a few sentences to realize this was in the U.S., I wonder which papers here are covering it?

[elleng]

18. Dunno;

its Illinois.

[Wetzelbill]

13. Mike Papantonio said that as a lawyer he's seen

D.A.s who are almost sociopathic they are so driven to convict. This sort of thing doesn't surprise me at all. If you don't have the means and money to really protect yourself you could damn well get taken to the cleaners.

[MrsBrady]

47. someone I know was arrested and it was total BS

on a "minor" charge....
it was a traffic incident...

totally f'ed up story. and my friend (we’ll call him Albert) feels like his is LUCKY now, which trips me out.

It was actually the other guy's (aka idiot a-hole) fault, there were no witnesses, but the cops went on this a-hole's "word".
A-hole tried to get Albert to rear end him on the road, and when that didn't work lied to the cops and said Albert had tried to run him off the road.
This a-hole had even gotten out of his car and threatened my friend! Right in the street!
This a-hole called the cops and they just "showed up", Albert said.
I read the police report. Total bs...and wrong.

The a-hole was not arrested or charged at all...
The officer, after arresting Albert, proceeded to admonish him for his liberal bumper stickers and proselytize all the way to the city jail.
WTF? Really? Yes, really.

Albert said the few hours in the city jail scared the crap out of him. His called his wife to bail him out. He said his wife actually thought he was pranking her when he called to say he was in jail.
Albert said it took him about 5 minutes to convince her that he was not joking.
He got a lawyer and had to pay several thousand dollars to the lawyer and court costs to get the charged dismissed...took about 9 months.

His bail was considered "very low" and an unusual, old amount according by his lawyer, an amount that the lawyer hadn't seen since the 1970's. He said that he thought it was just a token amount and would have no problems, due to the fine amount...thinking that the county didn't think much of the issue because of the amount.
But a weird thing happened when the lawyer went to the DA's office the first time, a few weeks after the arrest for the first court date.
The lawyer assumed that since it was a "nothing" charge (but not to Albert who requires security clearances for his job), that it would be no problem to get it dismissed...since Albert had a spotless record, and the DA probably wouldn't have even looked at the case or waste time on it.
Well guess what? The DA's office was apparently "familiar" with the case. And told his lawyer that they were going to push for a conviction on this one. The minor fee was now changed and upped to the legal $$ limit for that charge that this charge could be before it becomes a felony (some of it would go to the a-hole). The lawyer said he was really surprised that the DA had even bothered to look at the case. The lawyer said that really when he goes to talk to the DA, they haven't even bothered to look at a case like that. He thinks the a-hole called up the DA's office and told them about it and pushed for more money, probably gave a sob story.
The lawyer didn't know that Albert had hired a PI to get info on the a-hole. It made sense that the a-hole would have called the DA's office if he knew people there. Really f'ed up stuff.

We have a mutual PI friend that found out this a-hole used to work for one of the local police departments and was in bankruptcy proceedings. He totally believes that the a-hole was looking for something like this to get money.
A-hole got what he wanted too. Albert thinks he was set up...and I am inclined to agree.
The a-hole probably dropped names with the officer and the DA's office. Un-freakin-believeable.

Albert’s lawyer was able to get the charged dismissed, but the whole thing left him worried...and frankly I think left him with some PTSD.
No one is innocent until proven guilty. No one. Once you get "in the system"...it only matters if you can afford to pay a lawyer to help you get out of the charge. And how well the lawyer knows everyone else at the court house.

I really feel for that boy in the OP story who is now a man. He was accused of murder...and was known to be innocent and was even convicted. How will he live his life, will he even know how to be a man? Poor kid spent his whole growing up time in jail. So sad.
My friend had a "nothing" charge comparatively, and I couldn't believe what he had to go through to clear his name.

After a certain amount of time, his lawyer said he could try to get the arrest removed from his record...expunged...even though that just the arrest on his record by itself would not prevent him from getting his gov't security clearances...his charge was dismissed, so it will be as if it never happened. However, the lawyer said, that even though his record is still clean...if there is every "any questions" a cop might have if he is pulled over...they can still see the arrest.... the lawyer said he's seen people arrested again if there is an arrest on the record, even without convictions.
Scary. This whole thing left Albert a nervous wreck, worried about losing his job.

Albert was not wealthy, but he spent all of his liquid cash to deal with this. I think it was several thousand dollars. If he hadn't had that money, he would have probably had to plead no contest, get a court appointed attorney, and would have probably lost his job with a conviction on his record. Scary, just scary. I think he will have to pay more money to the lawyer to get the arrest expunged.

[FreedomRain]

79. that

is exactly why I never put political bumper stickers on my car, as much as I love reading them.

[Wetzelbill]

81. that's a whale of a story

thanks for sharing.

[democrank]

15. 16 years of his life....gone.

Some justice.

[wellst0nev0ter]

16. So I Wonder When All Involved In This Abortion Of Justice Will Be "Nifonged"

Oh wait, I guess payback only happens if the victims are rich white guys.

[Blue_Tires]

35. well said...

[Seldona]

17. Precisely why I am against the death penalty.

No human system can get it right all the time. The thought of an innocent person sitting sixteen years in prison is intolerable, let alone had he been eligible for the death penalty.

If cops and/or the prosecution had evidence exonerating him, they should be charged just like anyone else. Not that it will happen. Even if they do, they won't end up in a place like they put this innocent man.

I don't know how you can compensate a person who has had this done to them, but I sure hope he will be all right and be well taken care of financially.

[mnmoderatedem]

33. exactly

for every instance of a death penalty advocate getting on their soapbox when a particularily heinous crime is committed, there is a case like this...

[madmusic]

71. All it takes is a newspaper article to be guilty here at DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3862684

That's just an article. Once arrested and the government prosecutes, of course he's guilty! No one would go to all that trouble if not sure of his guilt.

But why go to all that trouble at all? Why not just post a newspaper article and we can all vote on it. Death, torture, whatever we feel like.

I'm not stating an opinion on what the punishment should be if guilty but am only pointing out one reason why the jury may have blind faith in the accusation. The government is, of course, right. Otherwise there wouldn't be any news article of an arrest at all.

Simple.

[DFW]

19. The Chicago Tribune ran the story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-teen-inmate-freed_may05,0,470568.story

apparently so did a CBS station

on edit: I also saw this statement: "State's Attorney Alvarez says she believes prosecutors and police acted properly 16 years ago."

The guy may have been a bad actor 16 years ago, but prosecutors acted properly when trying a 13 year old as an adult? And a judge sentencing a year old to 45 years in an adult prison? Even if the evidence was taken at face value, on the surface, it does not look like "beyond a reasonable doubt," and at any rate, 45 years for a 13 year old kid is like life. They took away his whole youth. There is no way they can ever give him that back, but the State of Illinois owes him something big.

[depakid]

20. Apparently, the only stateside coverage is in Chicago

at least that's all that comes up on a google news search.

and none of the coverage includes information like this:

"The case was built largely on the testimony of a terrified 14-year-old boy who the police woke up in the middle of the night and took down to the station without a parent and interrogated him until he changed his story," he said.

An estimated 200,000 juveniles are tried, sentenced or incarcerated as adults every year in the United States, according to the Campaign for Youth Justice.

The United States is alone in the world in applying the sentence of life without parole for crimes committed by juveniles, according to Human Rights Watch, which found nearly 2,500 US youths offenders serving such sentences last year.

[DFW]

25. Amazing that a story like that did not receive national coverage

I guess Wolf Blitzer in his Situation Room is more interested in whether or not the Obamas touched the Queen.

I'm for the sentencing judge and the prosecuting attorney spending the next 16 years in prison. Maybe other judges and DAs will think twice about their handling of cases in the future if they see that. The reasonable doubt clause needs
to be taken more seriously, or so it would appear to me.

[Wetzelbill]

22. a few more links, not a whole lot of coverage though

http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=%22Thaddeus+Jimenez%22&cf=all&start=0

[Enthusiast]

24. Well, the guy's name is Jimenez so

he's not a regular Merican. :sarcasm:

[ejpoeta]

26. yeah, sorry for your luck bud.... set him free and he gets NOTHING

for all those years he's lost. i know this kind of thing is rare, but one wonders how rare it is sometimes when it seems that the police had reason to believe at the time that they had the wrong guy. so this other person was out there for fifteen years free to do whatever and have a life while this guy wasn't.

[madrchsod]

30. not all hope is lost in illinois...

our new governor is going through 2500 prison appeals for clemency that our former governor saw fit not to review. he reduced the sentence of a woman who ,while suffering from postpartum depression,killed her two children. no one involved in the case objected to his setting the woman free. today she would`t have been sentenced to 48 yrs in prison because PD is a valid defense not warranting a 48 yr prison term

[pokercat999]

31. Put the prosecutor in jail for 13 years. nt

[BlueJazz]

32. And People wonder why I've always been against the Death Penalty.

[pattmarty]

34. Juvenile justice stinks??? No, our whole justice system fucking..................

............smells like shit. From the courts to the prison/jails to the (mostly) corrupt police you're looking like something akin to the Soviet or E German system circa 1980. Believe me, I speak from a lower middle class experience, myself and my kids, AND I'm white. It'd be three times worse if I would have been Latin or Black.

[KG]

36. it's time for this country to stop trying 13 y.os. as adults.

[McCamy Taylor]

38. This kind of crap is epidemic in Texas. Hardly makes a wave when a new one is

uncovered here. Probably because Texas is one of the few places where folks would rather see the innocent convicted than one guilty person go free (seriously, they did a poll).

I don't hear about the cases nearly as often in other states.

[progressoid]

42. If he had been in Texas, George would have put him to death. n/t

[Th1onein]

40. Prosecutors would say: But this just goes to show that the system works!

I can hear them now.

[imdjh]

41. Let's throw in some actual information here.

1996

t, Thaddeus Jimenez, appeals from his conviction and
sentence on the charge of first degree murder. We reverse and
remand for a new trial because the trial court refused to ask
prospective jurors any question concerning the effect defendant's
gang affiliation might have on their ability to give him a fair
trial.

........

Around 6 p.m. on February 3, 1993, Larry Tueffel and Eric Morro
encountered Victor Romo and another boy on a city sidewalk. Several
witnesses on the street saw the boy with Romo kill Morro by shooting
him point-blank in the chest....... Three witnesses viewed a lineup at the police
station. Two identified defendant as the shooter; the third witness
said both defendant and another person in the lineup looked like the
shooter.

.......Prior to trial defendant moved to preclude reference to gang
affiliation. The court denied the motion, finding that the
prosecution had sufficient evidence that gang affiliation provided
the motive for the murder.


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=il&vol=1944358&invol=1

[prolesunited]

44. Well, think of all the crime just throwing him in jail prevented

He was a bad person and hung around bad people, so who cares if he wasn't actually guilty of the crime.

With that "logic," I hope you are not involved in the justice system in any way.

[imdjh]

48. You know, I could almost hear you whine when you posted that.

[prolesunited]

50. Nice personal attack

But you don't address any of the issues.

[imdjh]

55. Perhaps sarcasm comes off as a bit juvenile on you, and caused me to dismiss your input.

Or was I supposed to think that you were being complimentary?

[madmusic]

73. You know, I could almost hear you lie when you posted that

From your own link:

Tueffel admitted that the first time he spoke with police he
said Frankie, not defendant, shot Morro. He also gave a description
that did not fit defendant.

The officer who took Tueffel's initial description of the
shooter testified that the description was vague and Tueffel acted
evasively, changing some parts of the description as he spoke. The
prosecutor asked for the officer's opinion "as to the truthfulness"
of Tueffel's initial description of the shooter. The court allowed
the officer to answer, over defendant's objection, that he did not
believe Tueffel had told him the truth about what he saw.

Following Sparkman,
we hold that the officer here cannot properly express an opinion
concerning the credibility of Tueffel's initial description of the
offender. On retrial the court should bar the prosecution's
question and the officer's opinion.

Victor Romo's testimony that Torres shot Morro provides the
most substantial corroboration for the confession. The record shows
that defendant subpoenaed Torres, but whether he appeared so that he
could be cross-examined is less clear.

Your attempt at bias against gang affiliation supports the reason for reversal. He wasn't on trial for gang membership, but for murder.

[bertman]

45. Gee thanks, imdjh. Now you're muddying everything up with facts.

Nonetheless, the best way to stop the ongoing travesty of prosecutors and police withholding relevant information and evidence is to make it a federal crime to do so. And to attach stiff sentences to the crime. And to prosecute them when that type of misconduct is proven.

Now, who would like to bet on whether any prosecutorial misconduct reform like this could possibly happen in America?

[imdjh]

46. With my degree from L&O

It's my understanding that the only actionable misconduct you can charge a prosecutor or police with is hiding exculpatory evidence. IS someone alleging that that is what happened here?

[bertman]

59. A comment in the OP suggested that. But I was speaking in more general terms as this

type of misconduct is shown to occur on a regular basis--if one bothers to follow these things when they rise to the attention of our media.

[Pacifist Patriot]

61. Interesting trivia, but honestly I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

I don't see where either of those pieces of information are relevant to the fact that the wrong person was convicted and there seems to be awareness from the beginning that the wrong person was being tried in the first place.

What do you think the implications are for the information you found and shared?

[Blue_Tires]

64. i wonder how closely alike they looked for three witnesses to get it wrong?

[Pacifist Patriot]

68. Two of the three gave what would constitute admissible IDs. The third would be tossed.

I have no way of knowing what the circumstances of the line up were, but I have had interaction with gang members through prison chaplaincy and I can tell you there were times I couldn't tell members of a gang apart whom I'd met on multiple occasions.

Heck, put the shorter brunette female teachers in my nephew's school in a lineup and I probably couldn't tell you which one stopped him in the hallway when I picked him up from school this afternoon.

Witness IDs make me nervous, but I have an identical twin sister. Good thing she's an upstanding member of our society. Thus far.

[tomm2thumbs]

49. curious - if he participated in the attack that resulted in shooting vs. was the shooter

Hanging around with bad people can sometimes get you caught in a bad place, right or wrong.

[InfiniteThoughts]

51. OMG!

It is sad that he has lost some of the best years of his life. Wonder if he has the right to sue the state for punitives?

[demo dutch]

52. Telling that this is being reported in an Australian newspaper, not an American Newspaper!!

[peacetalksforall]

54. Reread this sentence:from the article:.

"The United States is alone in the world in applying the sentence of life without parole for crimes committed by juveniles, according to Human Rights Watch, which found nearly 2,500 US youths offenders serving such sentences last year."

I hope all those American supremacists read this sentence.

We are the biggest hypocrites in the world. We got the world to hold us up, but we didn't hold oursevels up. Believing in superiority The t

Torture, imprisonment, yanking people off the streets - in this country and others.

Judges and sheriffs and prosecutors with sick minds. Coming from some place other than a Bible class.

Thanks to all good people who are passionate about justice.

[imdjh]

57. Apparently Human Rights Watch doesn't read their own stuff

Or perhaps they are playing word games.

""The United States is alone in the world in applying the sentence of life without parole for crimes committed by juveniles, according to Human Rights Watch, which found nearly 2,500 US youths offenders serving such sentences last year.""

I suppose that since Iran imposed the death penalty, then technically it wasn't life without parole.

Mr. Mouloodzadeh was a 21-year-old Iranian citizen who was accused of committing anal rape (ighab) with other young boys when he was 13 years old. However, at Mr. Mouloodzadeh's trial, all the witnesses retracted their pre-trial testimonies, claiming to have lied to the authorities under duress. Makvan also told the court that his confession was made under coercion and pleaded not guilty. On June 7, 2007, the Seventh District Criminal Court of Kermanshah in Western Iran found him guilty and sentenced him to death. Despite his lawyer's appeal, the Supreme Court upheld his death sentence on August 1, 2007. The case caused an international uproar, and prompted a letter writing campaign by IGLHRC and similar actions by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Outrage! and Everyone Group.

http://www.gbmnews.com/articles/2165/1/Iran-Executes-Gay-Man-for-Alleged-Sex-Crime/Page1.html

[depakid]

63. Impressive that you'd cite an Iranian cases in support of widespread American practices

Says a lot, doesn't it?

[imdjh]

65. I didn't do that in support of anything. SO knock off the false inferences.

It's not a respectful form of discussion.

[depakid]

66. Why cite Iran then?

:shrug:

Seems like a reasonable inference that you're supportive of trying young juveniles as adults and sentencing them for extremely long terms in prison. Happens with some frequency in Florida.

Could be I'm wrong and misinterpeted- if so, feel free to fill us in.

[Pacifist Patriot]

67. I wouldn't say that was a reasonable inference at all.

All I saw was someone point out a logical fallacy in a statement and gave supporting evidence that showed how the statement was flawed. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that equates to support for trying juveniles as adults and sentencing them to long prison terms. That was a leap, at least as I interpret the discussion as a third-party observer.

[depakid]

69. The question remains- why cite a case in Iran?

It doesn't disprove the overriding general rule- which is that the United States (and especially certain states) are for all intents and purposes is alone in the world in engaging in this sort of instititional behavior with respect to young juveniles (or juveniles at all)?

More to the point though- as was implied in the initial post in the subthread, what does that (looking to Iran) say about the United States?

Interestingly enough, the Supreme Court has recently annnounced that it's prepared to revisit the issue of sentencing juveniles to life without parole for crimes not involving murder in two Florida cases involving a 13 year old and a 17 year old.

In 2005 the court held that sentencing juveniles to death was unconstitutional. Will 5 justices extend the logic- and place Florida and the rest of the US one step closer to the common morality of the rest of the world?

We shall see.

[Pacifist Patriot]

70. You'll notice the individual did say...

I suppose that since Iran imposed the death penalty, then technically it wasn't life without parole.

Iran, or any country for that matter, can be used as an example because the organization compares all countries to one another. I doubt the individual specifically sought out a case just because it happened in Iran.

I do believe all this person is doing is pointing out that the Human Rights Watch statement gives the impression that the U.S. justice system is the harshest in the world against juveniles because it addresses incarceration, but fails to also mention the death penalty. I did not take it as either an indictment against Human Rights Watch or a statement of support for the U.S. justice system's treatment or juveniles.

I think it was just that this individual spotted a statement that seems odd under broader circumstances.

[depakid]

78. Logically speaking it was an isolated exception to the overwhelming general rule

That it came from Iran is instructive- that was the point.

Which leads to the larger issue- mainly that a substantial number of Americans- and a large majority in certain states support (and often vehemently support) what damn near all other nations (de facto and de jure) consider to be barbaric.

The question then becomes, why do Americans hold such abberrant attitudes, beliefs and values? Particularly when they're so totally at odds with other western industrialized nations?

Two posssible explanations are that there's an obsession with punishment in the states- which in turn that moral reasoning for many folks hasn't developed beyond Kohlberg's conventional Stage 4. (Maintaining the Social Order) -and in cases like this- maybe preconventional.

See: http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

Another possibility (not mutually exclusive) is that more than any other western nation, Americans are driven by fear toward certain behaviors and collective policies. It certainly seemed so with responses to terra -like torture and other paranoid absurdities.

Who knows? It's certain a fertile area for research.

[madmusic]

76. My guess, for what it's worth....

The 17-year-old might have his sentence upheld because he was already on probation for a previous robbery, though there could be some technical complications. There was some injury, too. The 13-year-old's sentence may be overturned because of no priors. In other words, states have broad leeway with recidivism but maybe not so much with first time offenders. A California appellate court just found a LWOP sentence cruel and unusual for a 14-year-old.

[madmusic]

74. You're right. There is a logical comparison with Iran.

Thanks to the wing-nuts.

[depakid]

83. A tie in that seems to follow is so called "zero tolerance"

which strikes a lot of folks as throwing reason out the window.

It's a curious thing- how do people get that mindframe?

And why does it take some harsh deal happening to someone personally- or with a family member, before "zero tolerance" sorts of folks can comprehend the consequences of those policies both to their own selves and to the larger set of folks (society) that we all live with?

[peacetalksforall]

56. Notice the source: Sydney Herald

[imdjh]

58. Yeah, poor babies

We really deprived the Australian press of one of their favorite pastimes when we elected President Obama.

[Vidar]

72. American Justice really is an oxymoron.

[superconnected]

75. Maybe he shouldn't have been with guys out killing someone.

Glad he got exonerated since he didn't pull the trigger.

[madmusic]

77. Was he with the person that did?

I'm not sure. Care to cite? Many states have "felony murder" and it doesn't matter who pulled the trigger if a felony is in progress.

[Left Coast2020]

80. I believe I read a story here--I think?--about Holder and the justice

system as a whole. This was about a month ago. It was kinda nice to see, but if this Justice Department is really serious about "change" they need to go through everything with a fine-tooth comb. That includes the prosecutors who wrongly convict people and thereby F-up their entire life. It has to change.

[superconnected]

84. yes, he was with the guy who did.

[ProudDad]

85. Standard Operating Procedure

for USAmerikan criminal-injustice system.

This is what happens when all the power is placed in the hands of the DA's and the Cops!

It's inevitable.

As Lenny Bruce said, "the only justice at the Hall of Justice is in the halls!"