US interrogators killed dozens, human rights researcher and rights group say

[MiaCulpa]

Source: Raw Story

United States interrogators killed nearly four dozen detainees during and after their interrogations, according a report published by a human rights researcher based on a Human Rights Watch report and followup investigations.

In all, 98 detainees have died while in US hands. Thirty-four homicides have been identified, with at least eight detainees — and as many as 12 — having been tortured to death, according to a 2006 Human Rights First report that underwrites the researcher’s posting. The causes of 48 more deaths remain uncertain.

The researcher, John Sifton, worked for five years for Human Rights Watch. In a posting Tuesday, he documents myriad cases of detainees who died at the hands of their US interrogators. Some of the instances he cites are graphic.

Read more: http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/05/06/us-interrogators-killed-dozens-human-rights-researcher-and-rights-group-say/

---

So, the admin may not wish to prosecute for torture...but what about murder?

-Diane Sweet

[Psychic Consortium]

1. May God have mercy on our souls.

No one else will.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. It is the ones who did it and those that cover for them

who need to cry for mercy. 'WE' are not guilty of what is done by specific people, while we screamed opposition.

[Psychic Consortium]

20. Karma time for all. Good and bad.

Time for reflection, those who did the right thing
will fare well.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. Yeah, just understand that it takes zero 'reflection'

for me to know that torture and murder are wrong. No reflection at all to know that crimes should be punished. And also it takes no reflection to know that the guilty are guilty, while those who are not simply are not. I do not share in Eric Holder's karma, nor in Cheney's. The actions of individuals are the actions of individuals, not of others. Obama wants to pretend it is some collective event, but it was done in secret and they lied about it the whole time. We did not make that decision as a people, it was made by a few monsters. The only ones who will share the guilt are those that let them go free, knowing what was done.
Obama needs to reflect, and reflect good and hard. Not buying what you are selling.

[Psychic Consortium]

35. Because Obama moves very carefully does not mean he is not moving.

Justice will be served.
There is no doubt whatsoever.

[Truth2Tell]

50. I have doubt.

So it is false to say there is no doubt whatsoever. There's plenty of doubt.

[Psychic Consortium]

58. PC sees no doubt whatsoever.

And assures you that justice will be served
at the end of the day by the system.

[Truth2Tell]

67. Right. Like it always is.

:rofl:

[Psychic Consortium]

73. Times have changed, most do not see it. We are no longer

in the 20th century, we now have a new play book.
Time will show this to be the case.

[Cronopio]

82. With me and Obama, the only deal in this matter is "show me".

The only thing that is certain is that, if he does show the goods, I will acknowledge it. Not before.

[Psychic Consortium]

86. That is as it should be for each person. nt

[closeupready]

142. Well I doubt. I doubt very much justice will ever be served.

n/t

[Mme. Defarge]

165. Upon what

do you base your confidence? Why should I take your word for it?

[Psychic Consortium]

177. Time will tell. PC stands by its statements. nt

[Mme. Defarge]

187. You might wat to weigh in here ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3866108

[Psychic Consortium]

189. Thank you.....PC just made a comment on that thread. nt

[Zhade]

182. We've heard that before - and you have no way of knowing it will happen.

I hope it does, but let's not pretend any of us can see the future.

[Raksha]

162. Thank you, PC. I would really like to believe that justice will be served.

[freemarketer6]

167. Nope. I believe Obama will order a hand slap. Nothing more. And

this decision will be very costly.

[Psychic Consortium]

176. Those who mistake Obama's civility for weakness will be sadly mistaken.

Keep in mind the Somali pirates he had shot dead in their tracks.

OBama is ruthless in the face of evil and he will
make sure justice is served, in his way and on his own time table.

[freemarketer6]

180. I sadly disagree. And the Somali pirate thing while admirable

in its finality should have been handled more quickly. By his words and those of his Attorney General, I fully believe he will allow the torture perps to walk. And, thus, be equally guilty of torture after the fact. No offense, but my views of Obama are changing.

[Psychic Consortium]

181. Time will tell...... nt

[Psychic Consortium]

188. Obama does his work in his own way and time. But things will get done. nt

[freemarketer6]

197. Nope. Won't happen. Also, Pelosi is now part of the torturers...do

you really think she will allow herself to be indicted?

[saigon68]

149. Here is One who was MURDERED

No one will ever be charged

[Psychic Consortium]

179. There will be justice. nt

[Psychic Consortium]

193. The happy laughing American faces in the pictures as they murder and torture.

Unbelievable.

[No Elephants]

25. Screamed to whom? Our fellow posters? Our friends who had no more power

than we did to actually get anything done? What are we doing now to make susure Bushco gets punished, even though Obamaco wants to look only forward (and help AIG decide how much 2009 bonuses are going to be)?

[midnight]

33. My family had a sign to bring the troops home for many months

until the police arrested a family memeber on their way home from work. The police refuse to hand over the three hour interigation tape. We can make our voices heard, but we will also be arrested, have our taxes audited, and have our family members hit from behind on the roadways. It will not be easy or safe to speak out against this, but don't let them fool you, because you do have power to speak up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. You didn't take your sign down I hope

[midnight]

81. Some one working within the police department took it down.

Several times it has been replaced. We have had some people come to knock on our door in tears and thanking us for the sign, but the police have tried to ticket us and now they interrogate us through random traffic stops. It is like living with the worst perpetrators of crime.

[No Elephants]

127. If 42 USC 1983 is still in effect, it sounds as though you have a claim under it.

Even if you do not want to bring the claim, or have not kept track of the times it happens, badge numbers, etc., you might be able to drop mention of it and get the jerks to back off.

http://www.elinfonet.com/1983sum.php

You've heard the expression "Don't make a federal case out of it?" Well, ignore it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. Have you thought about complaining to your state AG?

[No Elephants]

109. I know. I had the pleasure of having my phone tapped years ago because one of my

good friends went to Mississippi to register voters. So I guess there must be a file on my excessively law abiding self somewhere in the bowels of the FBI. I don't even drink, ffs.

[bvar22]

55. Maybe "screaming" is not enough.

I was raised Catholic, and am followed by the ghosts of "Sins of Omission".
Sure I screamed.
Sure I marched.
Sure I carried the message.
Sure I voted for the guys who "promised" to end this.

But I could have done more.
I still helped pay for this outrage (Taxes).
I campaigned and voted for Democrats who turned a blind eye.

I AM an American, and this was an American crime that was committed in my name.

[No Elephants]

121. Yes, but you also made post 65. Please see post 84.

[ohio2007]

138. delete

[Ysabela]

140. Screaming at our computer screens...

does not absolve us of our guilt. Ask yourself... what would George Washington have done if he were in our position? Then compare to what we did... nothing. We are just as guilty for allowing it to happen.

[No Elephants]

21. I'm still holding out for Spain. All my hopes on one Spanish judge.

[Psychic Consortium]

44. No one person will do this job. It will take many across the globe

and in the US.

And the will and courage of the American people
to face the truth and take action.

[bdamomma]

160. me too, someone out there has to abide by the law,

apparently our Congress does not. sad very sad.

[pleah]

2. K&R

[LeFleur1]

3. Oh Well...

If the government does it, it's legal.

[No Elephants]

29. No, it was illegal, but, if it doesn't get punished--or at least pardoned--what

difference does it make? Heck, Dummy, Rummy, Condi and Dick are not even getting a strongly worded letter. This means that it's safe for our government to murder and torture, even if they cannot conceal it. This is the precedent Obama should be concerned about avoiding, not the precedent of prosecuting a prior administration.

I am so heartbroken and so ashamed right now.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bullimiami]

4. do the torture memos shield them from murder?

[mbperrin]

7. Shhhh...it's not murder, it's just, uh, accelerated life! Yeah, that's

the ticket!

Aggressive interrogation, accelerated living, nothing to see here, move along....

[sojourner]

13. holy crap! you could work for the ministry of communication ---

"accelerated life"............. perfect hit on their twisted and (ahem) tortured language!!

[mbperrin]

94. I could! If only I could rid of this nagging feeling that there really is a burning

fiery hell somewhere and current consequences as well!

I'd be rich if I could get me some sociopath training, like Unca Dick!

[yy4me]

15. More like accelerated Death. How much more of this will our

fine(ahem) folks in Washington leave unpunished?

I am disgusted.

[harun]

26. Enhanced lack of life.

[No Elephants]

31. How did you make me laugh when I had tears in my eyes?

[Cronopio]

87. Accelerated decrepitude. Like replicants.

There, now doesn't that make you feel better about it? Language is such a wonderful invention.

[Solly Mack]

5. K&R

[Psychic Consortium]

6. How do we make restitution to those we have murdered, raped, tortured, maimed?

How can we ever right all these wrongs?

[FailureToCommunicate]

22. We should try. But also not be surprised when their fathers or sons come looking for payback!

[Psychic Consortium]

24. That is why we must try to heal the damage America has done.

We must stop the cycle of hatred and violence.

We must do it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

155. We here don't all have direct influence on the issue, but I believe that stopping the cycle

is a kind of gestalt; who we are as individuals, and how or whether we act with this intent in our everyday life.

Therefore, I think there is great importance in practicing to stop our own individual violence/hatred responses on a small level, besides yelling on a discussion board about how pro-justice we are.

This examination of our daily activities and attitudes, measuring t hem against our higher goals for ourselves are, I believe, the way we "ordinary people" may best do our parts. (As President Obama has said, change doesn't come from him alone. This attention to our personal attitudes is the foundation of our participation in the change.)

The microcosm is one with the macrocosm.

[No Elephants]

90. No problem. I'll probably be dead. They'll only get the grandkids. (sarcasm)

[bdamomma]

163. and their daugthers too, payback will be a bitch if not for us

but for our children's generation and the next generation after that.............

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Right the wrongs? According to Obama, there were no crimes

just mistakes. Imagine how that sounds to the mother of someone tortured and raped to death? Mistakes indeed.

[Psychic Consortium]

27. Justice will be served. 100% guaranteed.

Obama knows his opponents are dangerous and slippery.
He builds consensus and a careful case.

It is also not up to Obama alone to tackle this issue.
The American people need to have the will to do the right thing.

[No Elephants]

39. It's not up to the POTUS? Why not? And what do you suggest the American people do?

[Psychic Consortium]

41. No one person can pursue this issue. It is too big a job.

It must be done with the majority of Americans demonstrating the will and courage to do the right thing.

Obama starts with the first step, getting the information out to all of us about what happened. Step by step he builds his case.

Once the facts are known, our legal options will be presented as well.

Then it is up to the people to decide what to do.

[bdamomma]

164. hard question to answer regarding what should the American

people do, we need to never let this go, never forget and pounce on our Senators and Reps, be a nuisance to them. Again, how many times are we going to say all this torture and murder was done in our names.

[Zhade]

183. You can't guarantee anything. You're nobody. Just like us.

You don't know the future, you don't have any special insight that assures what you assert will happen comes about.

You hope. Admirable. But hope is not a certainty.

[Psychic Consortium]

192. We stand by our statements. nt

[No Elephants]

34. We can't. That's why we MUST do something about getting Bushco punished. What? A demonstration in

D.C.? A silent vigil in every public park in America on a given evening? What?

Is there an organization for getting Bushco punished? Amnesty International, maybe? Please, there has to be something. Just point me in a direction actually likely to lead somewhere and I'll help as much as I can.

[Psychic Consortium]

37. Obama is in the process of building a consensus by getting out the facts.

The information will shape the outcome.

Keep the faith and opportunity will be there
for you to act.

[No Elephants]

40. And you know this how? And how long do we wait? Until the statute of limitations expires? (I bet

it has already run out on many of the crimes. 2001 was a long time ago.)

[Psychic Consortium]

42. We wait until the American people make up their minds what they want

to do.

The ball is in our court to a large extent.
Not Obama's.

He will give us the facts and options,
we decide what to do.

And that is as it should be.

[No Elephants]

47. He is the POTUS. Unless you can give a credible explanation of why this is

not up to the POTUS, I call BS.

But let's assume you are correct. It is up to us. I ask you for what, the third time?, WHAT do we do? I mean specifically what?

I am not one who believes that Obama is always 456 steps ahead of the rest of us; and I certainly don't believe you're Yoda. So, kindly be specific, or I call BS.

On edit: Never mind. I just call BS. 521 posts, hidden profile, posting drivel, initials are PC. Got it.

[Psychic Consortium]

56. PC answers your questions:

At this time Obama is building a consensus.
He presents the facts and builds his case.
It will proceed at the pace of the American people's
will and courage.

Right now you should keep doing what you are doing.
The right thing is to speak out loud and clear
and help Obama build the case.

PC understands your anger at this issue.
But justice will be served.
No doubt about that at all.

You keep doing the right thing.
What you are doing now is right.

[Zhade]

184. OT, but - people who refer to themselves in the third person are FUCKING ANNOYING.

It's so pretentious.

[Psychic Consortium]

191. PC is not one person, but a group. That is why it refers to itself that way.

Sorry for the annoyance to you.

[Psychic Consortium]

76. Obama is light years ahead of us.

But he moves slowly, carefully, step by step.

He is also ruthless when it comes to fighting evil.
Ask the somali pirates who were shot dead in their tracks.

[Liberation Angel]

195. Of course no trial for the teenage pirates

just extermination

not saying it wasn't understandable

but jeez these were living teenagers and a ransom could have saved all their lives.

It is like the bombing of al qaeda or taliban

no trial

no arrest

no trial

just execution of those fighting with primitive weapons against the most powerful and (what was under Buh) the most murderous empire in history as well as any women, babies, pregnant women, children, old people or any innocent civilian who happens to be in their proximity

I have some concerns when killing as policy is so cavalier and is perceived as "awesome"

[Psychic Consortium]

196. Obama is criticized for being too soft or too tough.

What do the American people want?

Obama gives everyone the chance to do the right thing.
If they do not, then they are given enough rope to hang themselves.

Obama will defeat anyone who wishes to destroy America
or Americans.

And he had no choice in the pirate case.
No other good choice.

[12string]

79. One of the crimes

that bush should be prosecuted for is politicizing the Justice Dept.Prosecuting anyone is not up to the President. That is the Executive ,not the Judicial branch of govt.This ia actually the Attorney General's responsibility and decision.

[No Elephants]

91. The D of J is in the Executive Branch, not the Judicial Branch. And even I cannot

blame Dummya for human nature. Let's say Obama hired you and gave you a nice job with tons of power and at least potential for prestige. And he also has the power to fire you and ruin your reputation.

And he runs around telling anyone who will listen that he has enough to do to fight two wars and save the planet from financial ruin. He does not want to prosecute anyone. Then he goes to the CIA and tells them to learn from their "mistakes" and move on. Let's even assume Holder and Obama never do lunch and chat about this. What do you do about Bushco?

Let's pass Holder. Maybe you are a leftover, still very loyal Bushbot sitting in the Ethics Division of the D of J. You've heard all of the above and you don't have civil service protection. Holder asks you to prepare a memo on prosecuting the lawyers. What kind of spin might you prepare? Even if Holder never gave you a single hint about what result he wanted, what kind of memo might you prepare against your fellow Republican attorneys whom no one seems especially anxious to prosecute?

People are human. Film at 11.

[bdamomma]

168. would the Attorney General forward these crimes to a

independent Special Prosecutor, then wouldn't Holder be not responsible for any decisions that the Special prosecutor makes?

[Amonester]

139. Here's a starting point:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/

Write, write and write. Send the link to everybody you know who's against torturing ANYONE and stands for true justice for ALL.

I know it would take millions, and millions, and millions of messages to that link about holding accountable ALL these monsters who broke the LAW in secret and tried to cover up after, but there's still time to START doing it.

I don't understand why DU doesn't 'pin' threads on top of every forum for everyone here to see it and WRITE, WRITE, WRITE, and WRITE again, again, again, and again...

WRITE one there every g-damn day that passes by... and spread the link around.

[midnight]

57. Don't most americans want this war ended, and those who

started it prosecuted?

[Psychic Consortium]

59. Recent polls stated 61% of Americans do not want prosecution?

That has to change before action can be taken.
Obama must have the support of the American people on this issue.
That will take time.

Obama knows how to build a consensus.

[EFerrari]

61. There were two polls taken at the same time, ABC and Gallup.

One said Americans didn't want prosecution, the other said they did.

[No Elephants]

66. Duh. Before the poll, Obama had already said that he did not want to prosecute. He is

the POTUS and a very popular one. OF COURSE, a majority of those polled agreed with him. If he had said that he did want to prosecute the poll would have come out the other way.

[EFerrari]

70. The other poll did come out the other way, the Gallup poll. n/t

[No Elephants]

92. Thanks. That's fine, but Obama's stance on not prosecuting had to have had an effect on BOTH polls.

[EFerrari]

95. You're probably right about that!

:)

I was half asleep this morning but it sounded like all but the most moranic Republicans were for prosecutions when asked this morning on WJ.

[No Elephants]

107. IMO, the only Republicans who are not morans are those earning over $250K a year. And those are

driven mostly by personal greed, not patriotism, not morals, not ethics, not even a sincere belief that allegedly small government and deficits are actually good for America.

Everyone else is being fooled. JMO.

On edit: And since K Street/1982, the rest of us have not been far behind, even if that did not become obvious until later.

[noiretextatique]

114. ben nelson is a prime example

he's more worried about his own mortgage rate and insurance companies than the american people.

[No Elephants]

120. Unfortunately, the same can be said about many gubbamint Democrats lately, though. A few

of them have questionable mortgage deals, courtesy of the banks. And Dodd shut up and sat down about banning bonuses--and the ones who asked him to shut up and sit down? Administration Democrats.

We have met the enemy and they is everybody.

That is the thought that has been scaring and sickening me most for the past two or three months. Maybe my only real options are (1) to shut up and sit down, too, or (2)to try to foment revolution or (3) work like hell to start another party. And, frankly, I don't think I have the physical strength and stamina anymore for the second or third ones. And I hate the inevitable result of the firest one.

[noiretextatique]

122. i joined the green party when the DLC

took over the democratic party. i still vote democratic for the most, but my official affiliation is my small protest. i have no illusions that those with d's behind there names are necessarily better than those with r's. i am tired too...i have been fighting fascists since the election of raygun in 1980. personally though, i'd love to see a viable third party arise. and if they keep squeezing us, i think it just might happen.

[No Elephants]

131. Thanks. I resented the hell out of Nader/Green for a long time because of Florida 2000. I

blamed Nader for 8 years of Bushso. Now, I'm beginning to think that Nader was about 20 years ahead of me.

[noiretextatique]

133. wow...that's great

i always knew nader was more right than wrong, on a basic fundamental level. i voted for gore, btw ;-)
i reserved my anger for the treasonous whores of SCOTUS and their blatantly partisan decision. they stole the election for bush, inc
:grr: i still detest all of them...they belong in jail.

[fasttense]

152. 83% of all polls are made up on the spot. n/t

[bdamomma]

172. polls are irrelevant in this case laws were broken.

[Psychic Consortium]

178. This is a very big job, Obama cannot do it alone. He must have the

backing of the American people.

[Zhade]

185. WHAT? We have to wait until people wake up?

Good thing MLK didn't take that kind of advice, or we'd still have segregation.

As he said, justice delayed is justice denied.

[Psychic Consortium]

190. This is a job that must be done just right.

All the pieces must be set in place step by step.

[closeupready]

144. "ball is in our court" - wrong. He's president. Chief 'executive'.

Chief in charge of doing stuff. There really is no wiggle room on this.

[Psychic Consortium]

148. He will set up the path for us, but he cannot walk it alone. He must have us

with him.

[AndyTiedye]

146. I Thought There Wasn't any Statute of Limitations on Murder

[L. Coyote]

156. Likewise for torture. No statute of limitations.

[EFerrari]

62. I agree with that. That seems to be exactly what his administration is doing. n/t

[bvar22]

65. Support the ACLU.

The ACLU has petitioned the White House (Holder) to immediately appoint an Independent Prosecutor to pursue CRIMINAL prosecutions.

The ACLU has also pointed out that the Statute of Limitations is going to expire this year on some of the worst torture abuses.

Delay on appointing an Independent Prosecutor only enhances the perception that the White House is protecting Torturers and War Criminals.

[No Elephants]

69. YES!!! I am proud to be a card carrying member of the ACLU, but I will make a donation TODAY.

[bdamomma]

161. I am a card carrying ACLU member they could be our only hope.

how many times can Jonathan Turley say the same things over and over again war crimes were committed. jeez!!!!!!

[valerief]

83. I just sent off a check a week or two ago. They may be the only hope.

What do we call our American Gestapo with the tasers?

[No Elephants]

110. Consider signing the ACLU petition for appointment of a special prosecutor. I linked it in Post 84.

[valerief]

134. Thanks. Done. nt

[valerief]

77. So they can NOT get covered like the anti-war protests? nt

[bdamomma]

166. whatever happened with Vincent Bugliosi and his quest to

get one Attorney General to prosecute George Bush?? haven't heard anything about this?

[Eric J in MN]

53. Good question. This isn't just about the US, but also about the victims...

...and their families.

[Psychic Consortium]

78. Yes, Americans are still focused on what was done to them by

the past sociopathic leadership.

At some point America will have to look at what was
done to others.

[Skinner]

8. This makes me physically ill.

I wonder if any conservatives will say that torturing people to death is just harmless fraternity hazing hijinx?

[MiaCulpa]

10. RE: harmless fraternity hazing hijinx?

I dunno Skinner, but they sure have blown their 'just a few bad apples' cover.

[Hugin]

12. Well, they just violated the "Critical organ failure" clause of the Memos.

I wonder if Hannity will volunteer for this too?

[No Elephants]

118. Couple of thoughts. DU could help the ACLU out on this with a special thread

linking to the ACLU petition for appointment of a special prosecutor and to other organizations, if any, who are working on this.

And/or, DU could set a donation goal as it did for the Obama Presidential campaign, with link and a thermometer and get donations from DU to ACLU effort or to another organization working on this, if any.

Maybe spearheading concrete action to be taken by Du'ers on this will help you feel physically better.

Just a suggestion.

[Gregorian]

132. Good idea. Perhaps you might address it in a new thread?

The ACLU seems to be one of our best hopes at achieving the upholding of the rule of law.

[No Elephants]

147. I agree about the ACLU, but I am just going to hope that Skinner sees that post. bc he has the

ability to act on it. The rest of us don't.

If you feel moved to start a new thread about it, or email Skinner about it, by all means, go for it. Unfortunately, unless you can find a relevant news story of some kind that is less than 12 hours old to post and add onto, you won't be able to start that thread in the LBN forum, though.

[sabrina 1]

135. That is a great idea ~

After the Fisa vote it seemed to me that sending money to politicians is a waste of effort, except for a few, like Kucinich who spoke for me on most of the important issues of the past eight years and voted according to his words.

I have many times, on several boards, suggested donating to orgs like the ACLU who have consistently stood up for the Constitution, rather than to politicians who do not remember the oaths they took.

Politicians do not need our money anyhow, that is clear from the huge donations they receive from big Corps with whom we cannot compete financially. And, that is who they work for which becomes more clear each day.

What lobby represents the people? Maybe that's what we need, a huge powerful lobby to buy their votes? Millions of small donations to individual politicians diminishes its value. Maybe we need to think about organizing a lobby for the people where all that money is concentrated since this is how DC works and we cannot change it fast enough to hold the criminals responsible?

That the US tortured over one hundred people to death, and possibly more, is not new information, not to anyone who has been online over the past several years. But the general public was not online four years ago and are not aware of the true facts about these horrendous crimes committed by their own government.


The media and our Representatives deliberately use language such as 'enhanced interrogation' to cover up the truth about what they did and the public assumes that probably means being a little rough on some pretty nasty (and GUILTY) individuals. It drives me crazy every time I hear them do this.

Most people still do not know that none of these people were ever even charged with a crime eg.

The polls would likely change if the true facts were talked about each night on the news, women being raped, children held and tortured or their parents threatened with the torture of their children if they did not 'cooperate'.

I share your outrage and have little faith that this administration will do much about it either, unless they feel intense pressure from the public and that cannot happen without money, sadly.

Letters, emails, calls? We did all that and it accomplished nothing. We need power and in this sad society, money is power and we need to stop giving it to those who refuse to do what is right, imho.

Give to the ACLU, I couldn't agree more, and put some thought into building a huge, powerful, well-funded lobby for the people and play the game their way until we can change it. Just my thoughts after eight, long horror filled years of total failure and frustration assuming we HAD representation, when in reality we did not.

[sellitman]

153. This post should have a "sticky".

It should not sink until the MURDERERS are behind bars.

[magellan]

175. Some conservatives have no problem admitting it's simple revenge

The things they say they'd do to detainees in place of waterboarding (because it isn't bad enough) have made me retch. There's an automatic assumption of guilt by association that they won't be swayed from, followed by disturbing depictions of protracted vengeance. To them, death of the victim just means the fun's over.

I have absolutely no trouble believing we did far worse than waterboarding, or that the orders came from the WH. Everywhere we were, torture occurred. No coincidence.

[Libertas1776]

9. well...

I guess Shep Smith will be getting off the train now. :eyes:

Obama is no better than Bush or Saddam if he does not condemn this and actually prosecute those responsible. Its not in the past, and we can't look toward the future until we realize that. After WWII, the US didn't say that well the Nazis murdered millions and the Japanese tortured our soldiers, but we have to leave that in the past and move on. WE PROSECUTED THEIR ASSES!!!:grr:

[No Elephants]

45. Yes, but we were not worried that they might do the same to us 4 years later. That is

the difference. Plus, I honestly believe that generation was, on the whole, better than we are, with, of course, some exceptions. Maybe Brokaw brainwashed me, but people seemed more moral. Being able to leave doors unlocked being just one example.

[EFerrari]

11. See? It wasn't torture after all.

[PDJane]

14. I am disgusted.

Every time I think I've hit the limits of my outrage, the US military proves me wrong.

The US is not that exceptional.

[MisterP]

106. "US is not that exceptional": frankly, I'm surprised it took this long,

given the utter amorality the US conducted the Cold War: torture is the MO for CIA- and Pentagon-backed dictatorships from Guatemala to the Philippines--and we can ask the people of Italy, France, and Japan how much the US "fights for democracy" (they fudged the '48 elections so the dastardly national Reds wouldn't win, and in the 70s fed Italian neofascist terrorism)
I mean, sure we're Honduras now--but Azcona got elected!!! dime's worth of difference! hope!

[ixion]

16. Every one of us commissioned this, albeit indirectly

we paid for it with our tax dollars.

Think of that. Money you earned and paid to benefit the "greater good" went instead to torture and murder.

Someone explain to me how this is not a crime.

[kiranon]

17. Death is an unintended but nonetheless to be expected outcome of torture.

It's still murder.

[No Elephants]

52. Accidental death is certainly a risk of torture, but we don't know that all these

deaths fit into that category. Some of them may well have been intended.

[Gregorian]

18. Criminals! (How is this any worse than Shock and Awe. )

How many did we kill in the attack on Iraq? Some say, a million.

Why are we focusing on torture, when we have all of the proof we need that Bush invaded a nonthreatening country?

This doesn't minimize the disgust and cruelty of torturing innocent people to death.

Why is it that torturing is getting traction, yet invading, attacking, killing a nation of people doesn't seem to be going anywhere? We marched in the streets in protest!

Did Vietnam pave the way for making it ok to kill people in nation against nation for no reason?

I'm disgusted and confused. As I would imagine many of you are as well.

It's murder. And it's much more.

[midnight]

46. I think those are separate but equally appalling crimes.

Starting an illegal war killing millions of innocent people via a lie-it's a war crime.

[No Elephants]

111. Consider signing the petition for appointment of a special prosecutor linked in Post 84 and

otherwise supporting the ACLU in this. It may be our best shot. At least they are already organized and moving on this. The Special prosecutor can look at EVERYthin.

[tomm2thumbs]

28. I hope they do the right thing - I'm sure it'll come up

'Buehler? Buehler? - '

[2Design]

32. kind of like the nazis and killing people and disappearing people n/t

[Overseas]

36. K&R in support of prosecuting "harsh interrogators" a.k.a. torturers

and those who wrote up the justifications and those who ordered the lawyers to write up the justifications.

[Iggo]

38. So we're torturing people to death.

And no, it doesn't matter if someone says it was okay to torture people to death.

Doesn't matter one bit.

[Hulk]

43. And we are debating whether or not water boarding is torture or "enhanced interrogation"???

I was wondering about this. Those reports of different persons who DIED under our interrogation?? WTF!!

Meanwhile, we are discussing with the crime family supporters and listening to condi-slut and diablo cheney talk about how it was "all good" and wasn't really torture. Meanwhile, WE IGNORE the fact that we tortured to DEATH so many others besides the three examples we spend our daily shows discussing whether it was "really torture, or really necessary, or really productive, blah, blah, blah". ABSURD!!

Get our heads out of asses. There was a documentary made on the one INNOCENT Afghan taxi driver that died in our custody. HE WAS INNOCENT!! He could have been YOU or your brother, father, son....WAKE UP AMERICA!!

We really are the "evil empire" in many respects. It still goes on!

[No Elephants]

60. Ir's even worse than that. Cheney said publicly that we should start torturing again. He did not

use that word, but that's what it amounts to. He wants us to start again. On TV, he urged Obamaco to violate federal law and international treaties and NOTHING happened. Not even a strongly worded letter. Wtf?

[Raksha]

170. That's to be expected - what else would you expect Cheney to do?

He's going to do everything he can to turn Obama into an accomplice. That's the best way for him to cover his own ass and guarantee that he won't be held accountable. I have every reason to believe Obama is too smart to fall for it, but we should still let him know we see through it and aren't going to fall for it either.

[LaurenG]

48. Horrifying...

:cry:

[formercia]

49. It gets a lot worse:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3879703582207034825



http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002441----000-.html

§ 2441. War crimes

(a) Offense.— Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.
(b) Circumstances.— The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the person committing such war crime or the victim of such war crime is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act).
(c) Definition.— As used in this section the term “war crime” means any conduct—
(1) defined as a grave breach in any of the international conventions signed at Geneva 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party;
(2) prohibited by Article 23, 25, 27, or 28 of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed 18 October 1907;
(3) which constitutes a grave breach of common Article 3 (as defined in subsection (d)) when committed in the context of and in association with an armed conflict not of an international character; or
(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3 May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol, willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.

[Gregorian]

51. The Hague. They are nonpartisan. Let's get them engaged.

Forget a truth commission. Forget doing this within our borders. We're a pathetic bunch. With Fox noise blabbing their opposition to the lazy minded.

We can get justice.

[No Elephants]

74. How do I get the Hague engaged again?

[EFerrari]

80. A person who is a citizen of a member nation or who was victimized

in a member nation -- like Afghanistan -- has standing and can petition the Prosecutor.

[No Elephants]

97. Thank you. (How cool is that?) I'll google and see if I can pull something together.

[EFerrari]

100. There was a report here last week that a man who was tortured in Afghanistan

in December 2001 is suing some part of the US government. I'm sorry that I don't have the link but he, for example, would have standing at the World Court.

That court, though, usually doesn't involve itself until it is clear that the offending country will not move, itself. And remember the Spanish court is going forward and will likely only back off when / if the US does go forward.

What really got this rolling was the new ICRC report last month. That report has legal standing and it found torture. Period.

It may be unwarranted but for the first time, I feel that is is possible, that there will be enough support for which ever of these venues that goes ahead. :hi:

[No Elephants]

115. It may have to be a two step process. Someone here posted about

entrapment by estoppel. (I think that was it.)

So, I googled. It works this way: If the govt. tells you it's okay for you to do something and you do it, that same government cannot prosecute you successfully for it. They can prosecute, of course. But, then, you raise the defense.

There are exceptions; and I believe those exceptions would be very helpful to a prosecutor of the interrogators. If you know it is wrong, no matter what anyone told you, you lose the benefit of the defense. And the fact that the CIA asked Bush to cool it on the "America does not torture" stuff even after the CIA had legal opinions is helpful to a prosecutor in that respect. Nonetheless, the go ahead from the higher ups and the legal opinions certainly complicate things.

So, if they use the entrapment by estopped defense and it succeeds, maybe the Hague steps in then and maybe the defense does not work in the Hague because the Hague never told anyone it was ok to waterboard?

This is why we need lawyers from the ACLU and a Special Prosecutor on this. It's not as cut and dried as it may seem and this is an area where the US probably does not have a lot of case law built up.

[EFerrari]

125. Except the government didn't provide a legal cover until Summer 2002

and the torture began at least by December 2001 if not earlier.

[sabrina 1]

136. How about the family of this man?

I remember seeing a heart-breaking photo of his little boy and his wife, holding this photo as they posed for the camera, and wondered how it must feel to know that your dad not only died in this horrific way, but to see these US soldiers disrespect him so, even after his death.

src=""]

And there are so many more ~ surely they can get justice somewhere, even if not here, which appears to be less and less likely as time goes by?

[sattahipdeep]

98. Everybody seems to forget

THE HAGUE, 23/04/09 - The Netherlands wants the US to abolish the act that legitimises the use of force to free Americans if they should fall into the hands of the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague.

"American legislation that would justify the use of force against the Netherlands to keep Americans out of the ICC is outdated and should be amended,"

http://www.nisnews.nl/public/230409_3.htm

And although U.S. ratification of the Rome Treaty isn't in the offing, Obama has pledged to work more closely with the International Criminal Court.

By ratifying Rome Statute, U.S. would signal that it believes justice and accountability for the worst human rights violations are indeed central to the rule of law, as well as a stable and just system of government.

[Gregorian]

102. I remember that.

There is absolutely no way Obama can undo the crimes of the Bush era. That is why pursuing this is more important than anything. Even the economy. All else follows the rule of law.

Besides, I never took that act seriously. Just who is going to utilize force in that situation? And risk starting a world war?

[No Elephants]

108. One step at a time. Sign the petition for a special prosecutor linked in Post 84 and let the

investigation and U.S. prosecution commence. Then, petition the Hague and activate for repeal of that legislation, if the ACLU and/or Special Prosecutor are not already on it.

Great post, though. Thanks.

[barbtries]

54. i write to AG Holder every other day

urging him to prosecute the gwbush administration for their many crimes. Today i linked to this report.

i don't know how he can ignore the overwhelming evidence. how anyone can.

[No Elephants]

89. I write Holder, whitehouse.gov, Senators, Rep. often. No replies. Please see Post 84.

[Gregorian]

63. Time is of the essence! What the hell is America waiting for!

Everyone should read this.

We all knew this was going on. If you were paying attention at all, you knew. Even if only by inference. We knew.

kick

[No Elephants]

126. Inference nothing. Photos from Abu Ghraib were published years ago. Of course we all knew. And?

[pjt7]

68. The AP &

other main press outlets better report this.

[florida08]

71. Dear God

How ashamed I feel. This kept us safe? I hope everyone read the article. Chilling to say the least. If the MSM doesn't pick this up the public at large will not know about it. It will go unchallenged. To say we don't do this anymore is not enough.

[bvar22]

72. Yesterday, Rachael Maddow showed the photo....

...of an Iraqi who was tortured to death in Abu Ghraib. This is not something new.
The photo was released to the public in 2004, while worse photos & videos have remained classified.
There has been proof of MURDER since the Taguba report and the Senate investigation into Abu Ghraib.

...and the criminals still walk free.

[valerief]

75. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, and Gonzales must be so proud. nt

[No Elephants]

84. Post 65 is the BEST POST on this thread. IF you REALLY give even ONE damn about this, do more

than post. Sign the petition. If you possibly can, mail a check, even for $5. Join the ACLU. Best membership fee money I ever spent. (You really do get a card you can carry!)



Sign the Petition:

https://secure.aclu.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=Nat_Petition_SpecialProsecutor_SEM&s_s=0416_AC



Donate

http://action.aclu.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FJ_donationhome




Join

http://action.aclu.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FJ_donationhome&s_subsrc=header_join_hp

[florida08]

88. thank you

I have to do something..emails are just not enough

[No Elephants]

101. You're welcome. Emails are better than simply posting, but getting behind the ACLU on this beats

emails. I agree. (I'll keep emailing, too, though.)

[Ozymanithrax]

85. The federal anti-torture statute Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C

Is Torture Against the Law?
The federal anti-torture statute is formally known as Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C of the U.S. Code. The law consists of three sections (2340, 2340A, and 2340B), which define the crime of torture and prescribe harsh punishments for anyone—an American citizen or otherwise—who commits an act of torture outside of the United States. (Domestic incidents of torture are covered by state criminal statutes.) A person found guilty of committing torture faces up to 20 years in prison or even execution, if the torture in question resulted in a victim's death.

The law was added to the books in 1994, as part of the United States' efforts to ratify and comply with the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (more simply known as the CAT).

Should Bush administration officials and torturers be liable for the death penalty? Clearly, if these people died under torture, our own laws seem to indicate that as acceptable punishment. I personally oppose the death penalty, but former President Bush was an active advocate of that penalty and would, theoretically, encourage its use against those who broke this law.

[No Elephants]

93. If there is any lesson here, it's that you stick to your ethics and principles, no matter what. JMO

[marasinghe]

96. always remember the whole picture

while we fulminate & rant - impotently - about torture, don't let the deaths of hundreds of thousands of iraqis killed by the war machine be quietly shoveled into a forgotten limbo, even as the occupation continues. is it worse to torture a person to death, or to blow his kids to smithereens 'accidentally' - while a filthy, lying, murdering swine of a president and his equally psychopathic cohorts, raped & plundered a country. every single death counts; including the soldiers - on both sides. every destroyed family counts. every displaced human counts. hell; every animal that was affected by this war - counts. and, of course, every tortured being counts. there will be hell to pay some day.

[No Elephants]

99. We are not simply fulminating and ranting--impotently. But even if we were, your

only suggested alternative is that we fulminate--impotently-- about the deaths of the Iraqis instead? Will that bring them back or get them justice? I'd rather take whatever action I can. How about you?

Read the thread. There are links to sign the ACLU's petition to appoint a special prosecutor and to donate to the ACLU. And hopefully the beginnings of a petition the Hague.

[EFerrari]

103. It's not an either or situation. And fulminating and ranting

can result in the dissemination of information to a wider group so even that can be valuable. :)

[No Elephants]

105. Right as usual, EF.

[SerfinUSA]

104. What hath man wrought?!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

112. Literally whistling past the graveyard.

[AndyTiedye]

113. Send Them to the Hague!

[No Elephants]

116. Please see the subthread under Post 49 and also see Post 84. Thanks.

[AndyTiedye]

151. I Have Been Donating to the ACLU for Years

[ohio2007]

117. any other news site carrying this RAWSTORY link ?

Somebody else needs to run and verify the source


jmo

[bvar22]

129. Yes. Rachael Maddow (MSNBC) showed that photo....

...on her broadcast last night. That individual was classified as a "Homicide"...he was tortured to DEATH in Abu Ghraib....

....and the murderers walk free, and our government wants the debate to stay focused on whether waterboarding is really torture.
Many, many have been tortured to death while in US custody.
IIRC from Rachael's broadcast, 37 are openly classified as "homicides".

[Quantess]

119. Makes me sick.

[No Elephants]

123. More Info on calls for a special prosecutor:

"A host of liberals yearn for a Fitzgerald-like prosecutor to hit the torture trail--to investigate whether any Bush administration officials violated anti-torture laws, or conspired to do so. MoveOn has asked its members to urge Holder to set up a special prosecutor, and it has organized a petition drive. In a letter to its members, the group says:

So far there's been no accountability for the architects of Bush's torture program -- the top officials who justified keeping detainees awake for 11 days straight, waterboarding them repeatedly, and forcing prisoners into coffin-like boxes with insects. We need real consequences for those responsible -- it's the only way to keep this from happening again.


Democrats.com has a similar petition for Holder. The Center for Constitutional Rights has called for a special prosecutor. So have the American Civil Liberties Union and Firedoglake.com. Constitutional law professor and talking head Jonathan Turley said that appointing a special prosecutor was "long overdue." Representative Jerry Nadler (D-NY), who chairs the House subcommittee on the constitution, has demanded that Holder hire a special prosecutor. And Representative John Conyers, who chairs the House judiciary committee, has requested a special prosecutor who would investigate not merely interrogation practices but the Bush administration's use of extraordinary rendition and warrantless wiretaps."

The above is from http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/04/no-special-prosecutor-torture and written by David Corn, who points out that the Special Prosecutor is not as desirable as Independent Counsel, but the latter no longer exists since Congress let the authorizing statute expire. The chief problem Corn sees with SP is that SP can only prosecute crimes, not investigate wrongdoing short of crime and report on it, as Independent Counsel could. I say, better than nothing!


On edit: Seems like part of Corn's concerns can be addressed:

In the past, however, Congress has passed laws allowing special prosecutors in cases of government wrongdoing to make formal reports to the public at the end of their investigations." http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/042909d.html

[Liberation Angel]

124. Link to original article (rawstory link not working for me)

A quick google finds lots of info on Sifton's credibility and a utube video from his appearance on Countdown

But here is the original story I think:


http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-05/how-many-were-tortured-to-death/full/

[No Elephants]

128. It did not work for me earlier, either, but it did just now.

[ohio2007]

137. delete

[grahamhgreen]

141. LINK TO ORIGINAL HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH REPORT

ACTUAL REPORT: http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/dic/index.asp


Comments on the Report

"Command’s Responsibility documents a dozen brutal deaths as the result of the most horrific treatment. One such incident would be an isolated transgression; two would be a serious problem; a dozen of them is policy. The law of military justice has long recognized that military leaders are held responsible for the conduct of their troops. Yet this report also documents that no civilian official or officer above the rank of major responsible for interrogation and detention practices has been charged in connection with the torture or abuse-related death of a detainee in U.S. custody. And the highest punishment for anyone handed down in the case of a torture-related death has been five months in jail. This is not accountability as we know it in the United States."

—John D. Hutson
President and Dean, Franklin Pierce Law Center
Ret. Rear Admiral, JAGC, USN

"The torture and death catalogued in excruciating detail by this important Human Rights First report did not happen spontaneously. They are the consequence of a shocking breakdown of command discipline on the part of the Army’s Officer Corps. It is very clear that cruel treatment of detainees became a common Army practice because generals and colonels and majors allowed it to occur, even encouraged it. What is unquestionably broken is the fundamental principle of command accountability, and that starts at the very top. The Army exists, not just to win America’s wars, but to defend America’s values. The policy and practice of torture without accountability has jeopardized both."

—David R. Irvine
Brig. Gen. (Ret.) USA

[leftstreet]

143. K&R

[winyanstaz]

145. There is no statue of limitations on murder..94 ghosts are crying to be heard

Who were these men? What nationality? What was their "crime"? Where are their bodies? If the Cia killed them, they have the answers.
How do we know these are not the workman that wired the buildings on 9-11?
How do we know these are not just political rivals or perhaps old lovers?
How do we know these are not the real passengers in those planes on 9-11?
We don't know ..and we wont know without trials.
If they get away with this mass murder...there will be many more before it is done.

[Alcibiades]

150. But they only tortured three people!

Or so they keep saying.

[lonestarnot]

154. And we expected what? That the real story hadn't been written or what?

Of course we murdered. That is what serial killers do.

[L. Coyote]

157. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

[closeupready]

158. Bunch of wimps here. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette.

You know? :sarcasm:

[Titonwan]

169. The media and the corrupted are expecting us to give up.

I, for one, will never cease to seek justice against the war criminals that just left office.
You think the Jews are persistent in pursuing war criminals? You haven't seen shit, yet.
If you really care about this country, you will join me in this patriotic endeavor.
Until Cheney, Rumsfeld (et alia) are sitting in a dock, the fight continues.

[Love Bug]

171. Will someone please remind me why we Americans are morally superior to other countries?

Is it only a question of degree in that we don't blow up school buses via suicide bombers or is there some other criteria for assuming moral superiority? I'd really like to know.

It occurs to me that, considering our history, we really should be working to balance our bad karma, not add to it. I'm just sayin'.

:sarcasm:

[bdamomma]

173. People for the American Way just sent me this

https://secure.pfaw.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=SpecialProsecutor&autologin=true

[bdamomma]

174. kick

[Zhade]

186. If you let them walk, Obama, you become an accomplice - and I will never support you again.

Justice is non-negotiable.

[bdamomma]

194. and this is what DICK is saying what a freaking liar he is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5614774