Republicans warn (AG) Holder on torture (will press to investigate Clinton admin and Congress)

[sabra]

Source: MSNBC

At a hearing today with Attorney General Eric Holder, Republican members of the Senate Judiciary Committee suggested that any potential criminal investigation into the CIA's harsh interrogation methods might not easily be contained.

Both Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA's "rendition" program that moved terrorism suspects from one country to another.

Didn't that happen during the Clinton administration?
Yes, Holder said.

"How many did you approve?" they asked.
Holder said he'd check the record.

The clear suggestion was, if any criminal investigation is opened, Republicans would push to get it expanded beyond events during the Bush administration. Alexander, for example, asked several times whether members of Congress, who were told about the interrogation methods, should also be investigated.

Read more: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/05/07/1925394.aspx

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Investigate and prosecute ANYONE who has had a hand in this.

[Lugnut]

21. I'll second that.

Let the chips fall where they may.

[Xipe Totec]

26. +1 n/t

[Vincardog]

104. ++1 investigate everyone involved prosecute everyone responsible

[AlbertCat]

155. Let the chips fall where they may

And a lot more of them will fall to the right.

This is another fake equivalency argument. Y'know like one Dem with money in the freezer is as bad as the parade of Repugs going to jail from K Street.

There's no reason to think flying terrorist suspects around is the same a torturing them....or that Clinton's suspects were as randomly chosen as Bush's.

A comparison might not be as ugly as the Repugs think.

And we cold open up the Reagan files again too, y'know.

[Enthusiast]

197. +1, I like that

Fake equivalency. And I think you are right on.

[SlingBlade]

199. Yep, No doors unopened

[ixion]

28. exactly... anyone

time to clean house!

[glitch]

46. Exactly. Unlike them, we are not afraid of investigations. nt

[Political Heretic]

53. THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN. So far I've seen no proof of that whatsoever.

[glitch]

82. Ok, let's just say we citizens aren't afraid of investigations. CAN YOU AGREE TO THAT? nt

[Iowa]

49. Yep... bring it on.

[mimitabby]

60. I agree

I don't care who they are/were. It's WRONG

[roguevalley]

71. agreed. this isn't partisan. its about justice. prosecute ALL OF THEM.

[bemildred]

Yeah, bring it.

Like the public has an interest in torture as government policy.

[nilram]

139. absolutely!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

143. Let the chips fall where they may....LETS ROLL!!!...they are trying to use the fear tatctics again

[nikto]

163. Justice is blind...

Go after all of 'em, regardless of party affiliation.

It's not about party--It's about right and wrong.


Could be a great way to clean out the Blue Dogz too.

[defendandprotect]

184. Thank you for immediately saying that -- it is as it should be . . ..

[Canuckistanian]

185. Fair enough

I don't think any liberal Democrat has EVER approved of illegal rendition. Not even if Clinton did it.

[Enthusiast]

196. +1, I don't want to live in a

fascist country.

[marshall]

208. I do think the implications will be very broad and bipartisan

That's why there is so much foot dragging. Who knows--maybe it will lead to a wholesale cleaning out of Congress.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Wouldn't it be wonderful, if Holder stood up and resisted the blackmail?

[lsewpershad]

13. More than wonderful

It will prove that the AG is a man with integrity and no one is above the law.

[L. Coyote]

22. Blackmail is a crime and must be prosecuted. Innuendo is politics, revealing

how desperate the Rs are. They know that Bush and Cheney are guilty of war crimes, will soon likely be behind bars, and are desperately trying any tactic they can.

[Wabbajack_]

84. Sadly it's extremly unlikey either will land behind bars

[Independent_Liberal]

91. Actually, the likelihood may be increasing.

Despite what some think, I've seen developments recently that give me reason to believe it's becoming a possibility.

[L. Coyote]

95. Crime is crime. Remember Bill Clinton's lie?

If a lie is enough to impeach, torture and war crimes certainly is more than enough to indict!

[Enthusiast]

198. +1, L.Coyote

And you are so right!

[MannyGoldstein]

114. He'd Have To prosecute Himself

Sounds like he signed off on Clinton's pioneering of outsourced torture. It would be noble indeed to put himself in prison, but I'm guessing that he's not the type.

[L. Coyote]

169. Yeah, "sounds like" was the whole idea. Innuendo means nothing.

Where are you coming from, accusing Clinton of torture?
What are your sources?

Why are you falling for this Republican CRAP?

[DatManFromNawlins]

159. It isn't blackmail if it's true

What's Holder going to do, excuse himself of the same crime that he wants to prosecute others for?

[L. Coyote]

170. Why are you accusing Holder of a crime? GET REAL!

Are you a Republican? If not, why are you conned by this stuff?

[defendandprotect]

190. See my post #189 below . . .

Good news . . . Clinton-era "renditions" required there be NO TORTURE!!!

Unfortunately, Holder didn't mention that today . . .

Both Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA's "rendition" program that moved terrorism suspects from one country to another.

Didn't that happen during the Clinton administration?
Yes, Holder said.

"How many did you approve?" they asked.
Holder said he'd check the record.


I didn't see this part today -- but I did see Lamar Alexander speak and I've been hoping
that Speaker Pelosi would come out again and repeat what she said the other day about
the Repugs having lied to them about torture plans.

Alexander's threats made me laugh because can you in your wildest dreams have ever imagined
the Democrats suggesting that they would push for investigations when they were the minority!!???
Do you remember Conyers having to hold an investigation in one of the basement areas because
they wouldn't even give him a hearing room?

And I agree, this was attempt to "blackmail" --
all while Bush began wiretapping the moment he walked into the Oval Office --
Seven months BEFORE 9/11 --!!!


http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/1019rendition.aspx

[DatManFromNawlins]

191. Who accused him of anything?

Apparently, English is not your strong suit.

[blm]

3. Open the books on all of the last 50 years and let the chips fall where they may.

The CORRUPTION of government has to end, and the constant coverups by fearful Dem tools assures the corruption continues.

[JDPriestly]

34. Absolutely. We don't want torturers in public office, Democrats or Republicans.

Let's go back and open the CIA files and see what happened in Nicaragua and Guatemala during the Reagan years.

We need to move toward more civilization, toward a better world. I believe that all decent people on this earth will support us if we take action against those among us who torture or authorize torture regardless of their political policy.

We abolished slavery some 150 years ago. Let's lead the way in abolishing torture. Let all torture nations be ostracized. Let's insist on the rule of law.

[HillbillyBob]

105. Panama, Ecuador &tc

Chile, Haiti, and anywhere else School of the Americas trained and sent back terrorists for the Corporatocracy of USA.

[glitch]

47. bring in a truly New American Century.

not the kind the PNACis have in mind, either. Quite the opposite.

[Political Heretic]

54. That will never happen.

[Independent_Liberal]

92. And we'll never get rid of slavery, either.

Never this. Never that. That's what they all say. ;)

[JerseygirlCT]

122. Yes. And if they want to look at Clinton, let's be sure and have a

good long look at Bush I and Reagan, too, shall we? Iran-Contra ring any bells?

[MessiahRp]

145. As always I stand with you blm...

I'm pretty sure though that for all of their blather about going after Clinton, they don't want to really reach back because a lot of those GOP fuckers would be busted for the crap they pulled under Bush I, Reagan and Nixon. Talk about overcrowding of prisons.

Rp

[lib2DaBone]

152. Good Point BLM..let's open the books on the last 50 years..

I have to return to an old Jack Nicholson cliche.."The truth... you can't handle the truth".

So goes America. When the average citizen wakes up and realizes that the United States has been exporting terrorism for the last 50 years.. suddenly the WOT canard loses media credibility.. and we can't have that? What happens when main stream America learns that we don't wear the white hat? Quite to the contrary.. we learn that America wears a black stocking mask over it's face.

When the average American citizen realizes that priests and nuns were gunned down by CIA commandos in Chile.. what will happen? (besides alcoholism and increased use of sleeping aides)? I doubt if church attendance will increase.

What will happen when the average citizen learns that the the Unites States tried 2 times (unsuccessfully) to murder Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and install a CEO from Chevron Oil?

Then, the American Media acts "surprised" that Hugo Chavez is pissed at the United States? If someone tried to murder me... I can guarantee you, I would have very little sense of humor remaining.

So these are the times we live in. Overt/covert activities are being stripped bare.. and it can not be stopped. We a;;p know subconsciously that it doesn't matter if Arlen Specter is a Democrat..(Arlen knows who killed JFK..straight up and I hop he rots) It doesn't matter if Joe Lieberman is a Republican... we all know Israel spies on America.. without repercussion. 90% of COngress is in the back pocket of AIPAC.

We face the "Summer of Hell". When workers wake up and finally realize that Wall Street and the Banksters have stolen every last penny from the American working person, they are going to be pissed. They may not even let their kids join the military to go to Iraq and get the legs blown off for no reason other than oil profit. Workers may even take to the street and demand their 401k's be bailed out just like AIG. (fat chance)

It's not going to be pretty.. but I welcome the cleansing and catharsis. Even Fox News and Charlie Gibson on Good Morning America will not be able to spin this coming awakening into a docile, right vs left continuum.

America holds it's breath and HOPES.



El Salvador Death Squads
El Salvador Death Squads. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Panamanian Drug Deals
Panamanian drug deals. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Haiti Coup
Haiti coup. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Murder of Six Jesuit Priests
November 16, 198, San Salvador, in El Salvador: Six Jesuit priests and their housekeeper and her daughter were assassinated in San Salvador. H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Murder of American innkeeper
The death of an American innkeeper in Guatemala. Col. Julio Roberto Alpirez, a Guatemalan officer, was linked to it. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Argentina's "Dirty Little War"
The deaths of 30 civilians as part of the Argentinian "dirty little war". Argentinian dictator Leopoldo Galtieri, a SOA graduate, was found responsible. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Assassination of Archbishop Romero
March 24, 1980, San Salvador, El Salvador. While celebrating the Eucharist, Archbishop Oscar A. Romero was shot and killed at the altar by a death squad assassin. As Archbishop of San Salvador, Father Romero was a source of strength and hope for the poor and for the oppressed of his country, working with and for them, taking their struggles as his own. Romero wrote and spoke passionately and publicly of the need for Christians to work for justice, frequently faced with threat and danger from those who opposed his ideas. Introduction to Archbishop Romero
Or see Longer biography by Craig Johnson. Two of the three killers were SOA graduates. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Rape and Murder of Four Churchwomen
Dec 2, 1980, El Salvador. The rape and murder of four United States churchwomen, Roman Catholic nuns Ita Ford, Maura Clark and Dorothy Kazel and layworker Jean Donovan, at a military checkpoint near San Salvador. Source: H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Guatemala Death Squads
Early 1980s. Guatemala. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths, 440 rural villages destroyed, one million persons displaced out of a country of nine million. Piet van Lear, A War Called Peace

El Mozote Massacre
December, 1980. El Mozote, El Salvador. U. S. trained Salvadoran battalion massacred 800 men, women and children in El Mozote. Robert Parry, "Lost History: 'Project X' and School of Assassins. The Consortium. Ten of the twelve officers responsible for the murders were SOA graduates. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Rape and Torture of Sister Dianna Ortiz
1989. Guatemala. Sister Dianna Ortiz, a United States citizen, while working as a missionary, abducted and brutally tortured by Guatemalan security agents. "My back was burned over 100 times with cigarettes. I was gang-raped repeatedly. I was beaten, and I was tortured psychologically, as well--I was lowered into a pit where injured women, children, and men writhed and moaned, and the dead decayed, under swarms of rats. Finally, I was forced to stab another human being. Throughout the ordeal, my Guatemalan torturers said that if I did not cooperate, they would have to communicate with Alejandro. Hector Gramajo, former Guatemalan defense minister, a SOA graduate, was found liable in United States court. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Colombia Death Squads

[RandomThoughts]

187. In that movie.

Jack Nicholson was arrested.

however in a similar case, the soldiers following orders at Abu Grabi are in jail.

I think it is not when will they know, it is when will they accept and not use willful ignorance to pretend everything USA has done is ok.

Many people don't want to say it, or think it, because then they have to decide if they want to fix it or let it happens. When ignored or not thought on, the ignorance gives freedom from thoughts of guilt, although willful ignorance is rarely an acceptable excuse.

If the everyday average American people learn what has been done in their name, they will have to decide if they want it done in there name in the future.

[mod mom]

202. Justice must be blind. Prosecute all who are complicit in crimes.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. You damn right. Follow the investigation trail to wherever it leads.

If there were gross violations of human rights in the Clinton years, then so be it. Find and punish the perps.

[tridim]

5. The Republicans are now the party of NO and open BLACKMAIL. nt

[L. Coyote]

174. It is NOT blackmail. It is just spin and BS for their base and talk shows.

Why is everyone falling for this Republican BS?

[Frustratedlady]

6. Resisting this obvious blackmail is the only way we are going to stop this.

They've used blackmail as a weapon for years and it's time to put a stop to it.

Expose them all and be done with it.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. A question occurs to me--I really don't know the answer

because I don't frequent the sites that could give me the answer--but would the inhabitants of right-wing and conservative sites leap forward to stand on principle and call for the investigation of their own? Or do they either a) deny that the actions in question are actually a crime, or b) that their heroes had anything to do with committing such acts?

Inquiring minds...

[JDPriestly]

35. Jackpine Radical -- What difference would it make?

If these terrorists can be tortured, then anyone can be tortured. This is about human rights, not about politics.

When we finally abolished slavery, we abolished it everywhere in our country. The piecemeal approach failed. Let's abolish torture, period. Never again, no more torture on behalf of or by Americans. And, in addition, let's form an alliance with other non-torturing nations to quickly censure and stop regimes that use torture.

[Jackpine Radical]

56. I think you're drawing an unwarranted conclusion from my question.

I make no excuses for any Clintonites or anyone else who might have done unforgivable things. I agree that torture is an abomination. See my post # 4 above. I was merely musing on whether or not there is a qualitative difference between us & the wingnuts. I suspect there is, that most of us take the stance that what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, regardless of who does it--whereas they aren't capable of seeing themselves as wrong. If anything, I wold draw the conclusion that anyone who thinks "Our side" is always right should not be allowed near the reins of power.

[JDPriestly]

136. Agreed.

[DatManFromNawlins]

160. No, there aren't any differences

That's one of the main problems with the current US political process, never mind the board in your own eye, always mind the splinters in others.

How, for example, do you draw from the fact that the Republicans didn't prosecute the Clinton administration over these supposed crimes?

You could infer two things, I guess. EIther:

(A) there wasn't strong enough evidence to make the case, or
(B) what they did was standard operating procedure

Given that (A) is highly unlikely given the Republicans' thirst for the blood of the Clintons, guess what that leaves you with?

It's my belief that ultimately, there would be so much political bloodshed on both sides that neither side is ultimately willing to take that first step. There is no such thing as forever in Washington.

[Raksha]

132. Some of the wingnut regressives on another site I frequent

are actually still condoning torture as a useful tool for "fighting terrorism." They are still posting endless "what-if" variations on the ticking bomb scenario. Of course they always get shot down by the progressives, but after a few days they're back at it again.

[Solly Mack]

8. Go for it. Have a field-fucking-day. Shake those skeletons out of the closet.

Clean out from under the cover-up rug. Expose it all.

[Sebastian Doyle]

9. Does this mean we could bring down the Bush Crime Family AND the DLC??

Like the Chimp himself once said....... BRING IT ON!! :evilgrin:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. if clinton approved torture he should suffer as should anyone else with a hand in this

a D or R behind your name shouldnt protect you from this

[beac]

123. Agreed. The only way to TRULY repent, heal and prevent future abuses is to prosecute ALL involved.

I hope Holder has the intestinal fortitude to do just that.

[L. Coyote]

175. Why is everyone forgetting that they could not find anything on Clinton, so they broke laws just to

push forward investigations based on lies until finally, they created a situation where Clinton told one lie about his personal, sexual conduct.

Does anyone really think that if there was one iota of truth to this, they would not have pounced on Clinton?

I feel like I'm lecturing either a bunch of idiots or a bunch of damn trolls!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

201. or you are being condescending for no good reasons. people use the word "if" for a reason

i was using it to say, that this bluff should not prevent us from going forward with the prosecution of torture

[jaysunb]

11. Let's begin w/ Iran-Contra

:evilfrown:

[Baby Snooks]

23. Yes, let's begin there...

And let's begin by asking Jimmy Carter why the CIA was meeting with Khomeini in Paris discussing the problem of the constitutional monarchy in Iran at the same time Princess Ashraf was meeting with Khomeini in Paris discussing the problem of the constitutional monarchy in Iran.

Let's begin there because that is when Iran-Contra began. And let's ask Jimmy Carter who gunned down Princess Ashraf's son. Khomeini or the CIA?

[L. Coyote]

24. Who assassinated American Ben Linder on the morning of Arril 28, 1987, and why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Linder

Who was Ben Linder? | Casa Ben Linder
http://casabenlinder.org/?q=node/5

[Baby Snooks]

25. Who do you think?

Maybe it was Khomeini.

[L. Coyote]

96. I don't think, I know!

[Baby Snooks]

172. So do I...

So do quite a few others.

[bobthedrummer]

12. This is the result of the failure to implement reform after Nixon-it's not a partisan issue eom

[Old and In the Way]

14. Subpeona the Christmas Card Lists!!!!

Seriously, in the 8 year Inquisition that Republicans conducted on the Clinton WH, how did they miss torture? We know in the Republican world view that lying about an embarrassing personal sex act is a crime against humanity, certainly nowhere close to the acts of approving torture, suspending Habeas Corpus, wiretapping Americans illegally, outing CIA NOCs, or lying about a Casus Belli.

Call their bluff.

[Overseas]

18. Here Here !! //nt

[notadmblnd]

15. They just come out in the wide open with their coersion tactics

let anyone, including Clinton be investigated. Sunlight is still the best disinfectant.

[JDPriestly]

36. Now we know how they got their solid majority support for Bush

in Congress.

[L. Coyote]

177. I call BS. Get real.

If you are going to make accusations, back them up with evidence!

[blm]

39. Exactly - they've been holding shit over Clinton's head since before he ran for president...

and his cooperation with Poppy Bush's seedier operations hamstrung the honest few lawmakers who had worked to uncover BushInc's crimes of office.

[jtrockville]

16. and justice for all

TORTURE is wrong, no matter who's involved.

[leftynyc]

17. The impotent flaccid pukes

don't have the power to warn about anything. But I wouldn't be adverse to an investigation. Let the chips fall.

[Baby Snooks]

19. The reality...

The Republicans at this point have no sacred cows with regard to the Bushes and will thrown them under the bus and some probably want to.

The Republicans are trying to cover their own asses. Knowing full well the Democrats will join them.

Like the lady said, the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children were worth it. So the deaths of 500,000 more Iraqi children were worth it as well.

We are a shameful nation. With a shameful Congress. Which has been complicit from the beginning. And still is.

[fascisthunter]

20. call their bluff

and if anything does come to light, deal with it like honest statesmen... I know that may be asking for too much!!!

PS - the GOP beating this dead horse will backfire, so I hope they go through with this.

[Optical.Catalyst]

112. That's right - Call Their Bluff

The Republicans are just playing chicken. The right wingers will get the short end of it and the Democratic Party will be the better if we do expose anyone who has broken the law.

[Turbineguy]

27. Gee, if only they'd

spent all that money investigating torture under Clinton instead of his sexual peccadilloes.

Oh wait, sex is more fun.

[bob4460]

29. ALL of this stuff started on 11-22-63

research it for yourself

[Baby Snooks]

33. It started long before then...

http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=358&Itemid=100
_____________________________________________________________________

"Little did Samuel realize when he entered Stevens Institute in Hoboken two years later what a significant role oil and pipelines would play in the lives of his descendants after his own death in 1948."
______________________________________________________________________

Of course he realized it. There is more and more on the internet now about Samuel Bush who was the patriarch of the family and managed to expand his fortune and his dynasty through marriages and who obviously realized at some point that it was not who controlled the steel industry who would control the world but who controlled the oil industry who would control the world.

He who controls the world's oil supply controls the world. The Bush family is a large family. The family tree is filled with quite a few Boys from Brazil. And probably some Girls from Brazil as well.

The biographies of Samuel Bush all portray him as a pillar of the community in Columbus which he was but he was also a pariah because of his political views which basically viewed fascism as the ideal of federalism. Oligarchy. Supported by oilgarchy. And here we are a century later.

A powerful man controlling a powerful dynasty. In Columbus, Ohio. Where no one really noticed it.

Interesting side story in this about the munitions dump at Black Tom which supplied the bulk of the munitions for the war in Europe. An interesting sense of deja vu with regard to 9/11. Did someone know back then about the plan and simply said nothing? And it would have benefitted the Bushes since they had "bets" on Nazi Germany. And the Harriman fortune invested in Nazi Germany.

An evil, evil family. Capable of anything.

[spooked911]

140. not all, but the bullshit accelerated tremendously after that

all the govt lies

[Ian David]

30. Let the cards fall where they may. Investigate them ALL. n/t

[Wizard777]

31. I'm quite sure the statutes of limitations have long expired. More wasteful spending by republicans.

Investigating crimes that cannot be prosecuted. There have been hundreds of people that have literally gotten away with murder back when that crime had a statute of limitations. So do we stop prosecuting murder because some people have gotten away with it? Of course not.

[HillbillyBob]

192. There isn't a statute of limitations on war crimes, murder or torture.

nt

[Wizard777]

231. Only in international law. The Statute of Limitations on GENOCIDE in US Code is 5 years

That's the worst of the worst crimes. Also our criminal code on Genocide would not have prevented the holocaust. There is an exemption to the Charge of Genocide if the people involved are acting in the course of the law. The Holocaust was the culmination of Germany's Nuremberg Laws. So our law against Genocide would have been useless in preventing or punishing Genocide in the holocaust. 99.9% of the time Genocide is done as a matter of law.

[Juche]

32. Which is why the dems will never allow a real investigation

They are culpable too. The only real investigations are going to have to come from the judicial branch of government or from international investigations. The GOP and democrats will lock arms to prevent any serious investigation because of things like this. Rendition is a violation of article 3 of the UN convention against torture, and it started under Clinton. Both he and Gore were aware of the program.

[rpannier]

119. Every president since Eisenhower has known and is culpable

I am all for full investigations.

We do need to find out what everyone knew and what happened.

[Baby Snooks]

171. Eisenhower of course warned us...

He was the last Republican president. And I guess looking back Kennedy was the last Democratic president. Which is why he was assassinated. He threatened the new order. The new oligarchy.

[L. Coyote]

178. Where is your evidence? Put up or shut up!

[Juche]

229. Sigh

Google the phrase 'rendition clinton administration', it takes about 3 seconds to find evidence. That is assuming you have any interest in finding these things out.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a062195clintonapprovesrendition

Presidential directive 39 in 1995 started the extraordinary rendition program, which is a violation of the UN convention against torture, which we ratified in the 80s.

AKA, Clinton is a criminal. Which is why there will never be a serious investigation from the democrats.

[blueworld]

37. Call their freakin' bluff! It's a HUGE red herring!

The CIA has certainly been embroiled in decades of stuff - if the GOP wants to go fishing, then they can go back to Saint Reagan as well. Want to investigate Iran/Contra again????

Otherwise, they can shut the freak up - Bush/Cheney/Rummy flouted the law. Clinton followed (perhaps) the same disgusting tactics the GOP had implemented earlier. This isn't about 200 years of investigations.

It took the neocons to trash the US Constitution, ignore international & domestic LAW & make the US military complicit in torture! That was purely & simply Bush/Cheney/Rummy and the GOP. I think "rendition" is disgusting, but that argument is a red herring. Did it happen before Clinton?

The issue here is the DOJ, the memos, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib - Alexander & Shelby know that damned well.

They can't attempt to hold the Dems hostage! Harry Reid had better coat his jewels in brass & Holder as well. They cannot (yet again) get sidetracked on every thing the US has ever done wrong!

Look to the years after 9/11/2001 and nail the bass turds responsible!:rant:

[mike_c]

38. good-- bring it on....

Investigate and prosecute ANYONE who committed crimes against humanity in our names. ANYONE!

[Hissyspit]

40. Larisa Alexandrovna's response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5611748&mesg_id=5611748

[Jennicut]

41. Well, someone is scared. Why threaten others unless you have something to hide?

[Supersedeas]

42. Lamar Alexander is building one hell of a legacy

[HillWilliam]

43. Well, Allllll-Righty Then... Let's go back through Bush I, Reagan, and

reopen Nixon whilst we're on about it. Fucking bring it. All those elderly GOPbastids are up to their bald noggins in crap and they know it. So, yeah, let's open it alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll up.

They've forgotten that the earth has shifted beneath them; the Internet is a wonderfully powerful tool and they can hide nothing from us any more. (Just ask Justice Scalia how he likes them taters.) Everything that was ever-ever known by anybody, anywhere, no matter how secure a secret it ever once was, is out on the Internet somewhere.

Just ask Miss Prissy Prejean. She ain't so pure.

Ask Pat Boone with his nasty pecker-picture. He ain't so pure.

GOP Congress, you ain't so pure, either. Watch what you're stepping in. As it turns out -- as we've found out over the last 8 years -- every GOP congresscritter seems to have a past.

Blackmailing the attorney general is illegal and a very, very dangerous game.

[No Elephants]

44. I see why Obama wants to look only forward. But, I don't think he can. Then again, the

American of voting age is famous for apathy.

I am ready to primary every last Democrat in Congress. Time to start with a fresh crop. Maybe it'll take a while before they all become corrupt again.

[aquart]

45. Fine. Go for it.

I have no problem being bi-partisan on this.

[EFerrari]

48. We should all contact SHELBY and ALEXANDER and express our support

for opening the books up to the scrutiny of the American people!

[sabrina 1]

78. I agree, and if they knew that the US was violating

International and domestic laws back then, why did they not do their duty and report those crimes? I think Holder should now bring them in for questioning.

The investigation, if they are right, needs to be way broader than we first thought but if they ARE right, it is necessary.

What better time than now, to go all the way back and thoroughly investigate what we now have reason to believe, was a policy of torture through several administrations, including and especially, the Reagan administration.

Time also to finally shut down the abhorrent School of the Americas, a demand that has been ignored from so many citizens of the countries who suffered at the hands of graduates of this medieval atrocity which appears to be fully supported by this government, no matter which party is in power.

'Never Before!' Our Amnesiac Torture Debate by Naomi Klein

http://www.soaw.org/newswire_detail.php?id=983

In Latin America the revelations of US torture in Iraq have not been met with shock and disbelief but with powerful d?j? vu and reawakened fears. Hector Mondragon, a Colombian activist who was tortured in the 1970s by an officer trained at the School of the Americas, wrote: "It was hard to see the photos of the torture in Iraq because I too was tortured. I saw myself naked with my feet fastened together and my hands tied behind my back. I saw my own head covered with a cloth bag. I remembered my feelings--the humiliation, pain." Dianna Ortiz, an American nun who was brutally tortured in a Guatemalan jail, said, "I could not even stand to look at those photographs...so many of the things in the photographs had also been done to me. I was tortured with a frightening dog and also rats. And they were always filming."

Ortiz has testified that the men who raped her and burned her with cigarettes more than 100 times deferred to a man who spoke Spanish with an American accent whom they called "Boss." It is one of many stories told by prisoners in Latin America of mysterious English-speaking men walking in and out of their torture cells, proposing questions, offering tips. Several of these cases are documented in Jennifer Harbury's powerful new book, Truth, Torture, and the American Way.

It's rare that I agree with anything any Repug has to say, but I think, however unintentionally it was, these two would-be blackmailers, actually have raised a very important point.

I hope Holder agrees with them also and begins the process of ridding this country of its policy of torture that apparently has gone on for decades, even while our 'leaders', such as Reagan, were publicly denouncing it.

Klein points out in this article that the Bush administration's main innovation regarding torture was not that they did it, but that they did it openly, whereas their predecessors kept it secret all these years.

As Naomi Klein asks:

Other cultures deal with a legacy of torture by declaring "Never again!" Why do so many Americans insist on dealing with the current torture crisis by crying "Never Before"?

Who knows? Shelby and Alexander could be the catalysts for what appears to be the way-too-late beginning of the end of the long decline of this country towards totalitarianism.

I really hope Holder takes them at their word instead of caving in to what they perceive to be a threat.

But, I won't hold my breath ~

[EFerrari]

85. Naomi must read DU because I have been calling out our "amnesia" on this topic

for years.

:)

[sabrina 1]

217. I wouldn't be surprised if she does

read DU ~ :-)

[mbperrin]

50. I agree. Investigate, indict, convict, and execute every war criminal still alive from ANY

administration!

Why would anyone get a pass?

Thanks, boys, for suggesting we open a GIANT can of whup-ass!

[MasonJar]

51. Do not fold to these threats. If someone who is a dem was culpable fine.

We know, however, that these policies were a tool of the Bushista. The torture at Abu Gahrib was not even used for info, but was rather just for extraneous cruelty, and was brought by Miller from Guantanamo. The torture of prisoners after they had cooperated by Bushista was to extract lies for their invasion of an innocent Iraqi people, 100s of 1000s of whom were killed. This series of tortures and murders was beyond even Reagan's vision of hegemony and empire. Hey, Lamar, were you on the Committee when the Bushista gave evidence of enhanced interrogation and rendition? How about you, Shelby? Go ahead investigate Congress. You have both been there a long time. By the way, whatever your party affiliation, why are you trying to blackmail AG Holder for doing the people's work? Are you GOPers or Americans?

[damntexdem]

52. Oh, good -- then those GOPers are on board?

;-)

Hey, if illegal actions occurred under Clinton, there should be investigations and possible prosecutions. But the known, horrid crimes under Dubya should have the highest priority.

[rd_kent]

55. Good! If slick Willies was involved in this crap

he should go to jail too!

[JackRiddler]

57. They should be a lot louder about it too...

I mean, really, this is what they're down to?

By all means, investigate ALL allegations of torture, and of illegal covert activities of any kind by state agents or contractors. Bravo.

This needs to turn into a very big confrontation where Holder is indeed forced to save face (and his ass) by appointing independent prosecution.

[wundermaus]

58. BLACKMAIL!!!

It's what's for dinner!

[underpants]

88. That is exactly what this is

although I don't have a problem investigating anyone involved

[Serial Mom]

127. Yep, criminals doing yet another criminal act!

Can't say much more than that! They are all greedy assholes who have to have it their way or no way!

[Eric J in MN]

59. It's illegal for members of Congress to make public classified security briefings.

A Congressman who was told about torture but barred by law from making the briefing public isn't the same as a president and vice-president who ordered torture.

[bertman]

73. You're right, Eric J. However, the question I keep asking myself is why did the Dems who

were given these briefings not immediately go to the Democratic party leaders and tell them that they cannot divulge the subject of those briefings but they were about illegal acts. Then they could have informed the entire Democratic Senate and House that the President was authorizing unconstitutional and illegal activities and that they demand an investigation. Even if only the Democratic minority leaders and most senior Senators and Representatives had gone en masse to the media, or even to the White House, they would have gained the high moral ground and put BushCo on notice that they were not going to stand idly by while they shredded the Constitution.

Then again, I think back to who the leaders were and my question is answered.

Corporate Dems who will do whatever it takes to protect their corporate masters.

[24601]

154. Actually, the speech and debate clause provides a member

immunity from anything said on the floor. The executive branch could do absolutely nothing about a member who takes the floor and discloses info. Courts have also expanded it to other official congressional functions as well, such as hearings. Press Conferences are NOT covered as Sen Proxmire found out with his Golden Fleece Award and a slander suit.

[Swede Atlanta]

61. Bush, Condi, Rummy, Wolfowitz, Clinton, Cheney and company....

They can have cells in the same cell block and play cards together. I don't care if it was the frigging pope who violated the law...prosecute...prosecute...prosecute..... throw away the key when you are done.

[niyad]

62. "how many did you approve?" I don't recall that holder was AG under clinton

[Autumn]

206. Well you know, he was

Clinton's AG.:rofl: I say investigate and let the chips fall where they may.

[24601]

227. Janet Reno was Clinton's AG.

After serving as US Attorney, Holder became Deputy AG in 1997.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[obxhead]

67. yeah, it's all the damn southerners fault.....

not as single pub in all them fucking northern states are there.


:crazy:

[sasquatch]

70. Well the dumb ones and besides its the southern pubs leading this movement

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sasquatch]

182. WTF are you talking about

[obxhead]

64. NO problem, lets roast ALL of them. nt

[canadianbeaver]

65. Make them hold their hearings in the dungeon like they did the dems

during the * admin....they sent the dems to the bowels to hold their hearings...so send them down there to see how those hearings work out...but I am sure they will get more attention(by media and others) than the dems did previously....for sure!

[barbtries]

66. go for it

fucking pigs.

[graywarrior]

68. Do it.

[Zhade]

69. Bring it on, fuckers. ANYONE who tortured should be held accountable.

We're not hypocrites in that regard, unlike you.

[sellitman]

216. Word!

Jail them ALL.

[november3rd]

72. Sounds Fine To Me

Justice has to be blind.

[bertman]

74. "Holder said he'd check the record." Ummm.

Harry Reid is probably pissing in his britches right now.

[pleah]

75. Go right ahead and do it.

If anyone is guilty of torture, they should be punished.

[90-percent]

76. Our Government

The statesmen that we deserve in our government seem to have been partially replaced with mafia thugs.

A true statesman would not even be able to consider such a thing as a bald faced threat like this!

I want the guilty to pay and I don't give a rats ass which party the traitors are aligned with! And I'm very happy about opening all this up all the way back to Operation 40!

-90% Jimmy

[Hubert Flottz]

77. If Attorney General Eric Holder had any part in torture under

the Clinton administration, he should be fired and replaced with someone who can stand up to these blackmailing republican pricks and gangsters.

[Raksha]

137. That was my thought exactly.

Holder was blackmailed in public, in front of Congress and the whole country. How can he have ANY credibility whatsoever if he caves in to it?

[peace13]

219. Yep, I agree. n/t

[mckara]

79. All of These Actions Must Be Investigated!

Republicans and Democrats must be held accountable for their actions. If their policies violated laws, they should be punished!

[Soylent Brice]

80. republicans are, hands down, the biggest fucking dipshit baby asshats, EVER.

they just don't get it.

PROSECUTE ANYONE AND EVERYONE INVOLVED. EVER.

BUT, you better believe they'll start with the most recent admin to pass first, and that could take years considering how many were complacent in that administration.

fuck, there may not be a republican left to go after the clinton admin after it was over anyways, maybe not even a congress.

[Ilsa]

81. Well, I'm not going to hold my breath that there will ever be justice

over torture now. This is sickening, but I don't see it happening. Shit.

[liquid diamond]

165. Right

How far back do we go? How much time and money is this investigation going to cost? You think complicit dems want to go down with the repigs? They'll work something out to cover their asses. This country has enough problems and digging into the past will only add to them. No wonder Obama keeps saying let's move forward.

[L. Coyote]

179. Why are you accusing Dems of complicity? Are you working with the Puke Senators

in the con?

[liquid diamond]

194. Please.

Are you that naive? Do you think that not one single dem was involved in torture from the Clinton years until now?

[L. Coyote]

213. Yes, of course I do. Do you have any evidence to the contary?

Didn't think so.

[liquid diamond]

228. That's the whole point of not investigating. Nobody

wants to be exposed. Bush and Cheney will walk. Count on it.

[L. Coyote]

232. There are multiple investigations ongoing, you realize??

[Norrin Radd]

83. Shine a light in every nook and cranny.

[2Design]

86. blackmail is how BFEE got everyone to roll over or they got them snuff n/t

[SalmonChantedEvening]

87. Don't just sing it, bring it.*

Open up all the windows and let the sunlight shine.

*Thank you Scott Hall.

[BlueJac]

89. Let's just get to bottom of all this mistreating of prisoners....

I know the democrats are cowards and will back down from any Republican threat. This country is lost and can't find it's way. I am ashamed.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

90. It was the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee

EDITOR'S NOTE: An earlier version of this post incorrectly identified the committee Holder testified before as Judiciary. This version corrects that, pointing out that it was an Appropriations subcommittee.



On a personal note, these veiled crimes from the republicans should indicate FEAR, of accountability and whatever other skeletons that might be laying around in the dirt.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

107. I hate the Ed Show

[GoddessOfGuinness]

93. Why stop there?

Keep going...
I don't give a damn what their party affiliation is.

[pyro858]

94. We either follow the law or we don't

The ball is in Obama's court. Is he for the rule of law or not? If the elites in our country are above the law then i am too.

[xchrom]

97. recommend -- let the chips fall where they may.

though they MIGHT be disappointed it the depth and breadth of where the investigation leads re: clinton.

[HillbillyBob]

98. That would explain why Holder does not want to investigate

I lay this on President Obamas lap, he should f------ KNOWN better than to hire retreads. Geithner is a real winner too ain't he.
Mr Obama I suggest you throw all the retreads out and find shiney new faces that have not had a hand in past administrations goofs err crimes? mishandling, mistakes or what have you.
WE voted for you to make changes not same shit different day. Watching repeats of tv programs is one thing... I guess you are seeing what a mistake repeats are in government.

[santamargarita]

99. Investigate these Goddamn Republican Assholes for blackmail

I hate these fucking assholes!!!

[Politicalboi]

100. Bring it on assholes

I would love nothing better than to see Poppy Bush put in jail in his last years on earth along with his dip shit sons.

[frylock]

101. then lets do this thing

[kevsters]

102. Progressives Ar Losing This War On Torture.

Progressive need to learn how to frame arguments. Republicans have been doing this well for quite some time, and it's time progressives did the same thing.

Short article here on Framing the torture argument.

http://progressnotcongress.org/blog/?p=517

[Richard Steele]

103. Open the investigations, then let the powerless Pukes 'push' for whatever they want. nm

[McCamy Taylor]

106. One of the few times I agree with the GOP scum. Everyone needs to be held accountable.

[countmyvote4real]

108. No one should be above the law.

Do it.

[PatrynXX]

109. Go ahead Repukes. Have to trace it back to the source.

And how long did Clinton have democrats controlling congress??


I'd say Republicans let Bush do what he wanted far longer than they let Clinton. But Republicans or democrats... trace the source

[rasputin1952]

110. Hmmm...an attempt at Blackmail, why am I not surprised...

Investigate and prosecute...if the trail goes further, so be it...Poppy bush and Reagan should be investigated as well, neither of them are pristine. I still wonder what was in their papers that bush II so quickly locked them up.

[judesedit]

111. By the way, we should Investigate Reagan, too.

Remember the hostage issue????

[RBInMaine]

118. Um, he's dead.

[FiveGoodMen]

129. Yeah, but he's still a hero to so many.

Be great to take him down a few pegs, even posthumously.

[judesedit]

113. And if we ever investigate Big Daddy Bush...watch out!

I'm sure there's PLENTY there to look at.

[Raksha]

146. I don't even want to think about all the skeletons in Poppy's closet.

Just the ones we know about are bad enough.

[Xipe Totec]

115. Let it all hang out, baby...

anybody, Democratic or Republic, if they were involved in torture, let them hang.

That's the difference between Democrats and Republics, country before party, or party before country.

[The Backlash Cometh]

116. Um. I thought Clinton was lax on terrorism?

[RBInMaine]

117. Absent MAJOR atrocities, you can't go back DECADES to investigate and prosecute this stuff.

Look, no one is more disgusted with ALL the rotten things the Bush regime did than I am, but you just can't go endlessly back decades to investigate and prosecute this kind of thing. It is very complex, and you'd be in the courts FOREVER with all the legal hassle, and it would cost millions of dollars by the way as well and put the nation through a lot of hell. The better goal is to do what Obama is doing and making the needed changes GOING FORWARD.

[DKRC]

120. Go for it! Shine a bright light into all the dark corners!

The Repukes are bluffing. It's what bullies do. Call their bluff & investigate everyone that's had their nasty little fingers in this atrocious mess. It's past time to bring all of the players to justice.

[JerseygirlCT]

121. Bring it. And if laws were broken, I don't much care WHICH

administration it was.

[AtomicKitten]

124. Let the sun shine in!

I'm not interested in partisan politics on this mess.

Let the chips fall where they may.

[tomp]

125. good! bipartisan, reaching across the aisle...

...obama should be happy about this.

[RedCloud]

126. Expand to Bush I at Paris France with terrorists. Call their bluff!

[Wednesdays]

128. K&R

:kick:

[Raksha]

130. Blackmail threats in Congress and on national TV.

I couldn't believe my ears..."brazen" doesn't even begin to cover it!

[Beacool]

131. Well, let it reap, the more the merrier.

Let the chips fall where they may.........

:shrug:

[TygrBright]

133. Absolutely. Any Dems involved in this despicable practice should go down.

No matter who.

No matter how.

adamantly,
Bright

[Psychic Consortium]

134. Blackmailing and threatening Obama or his administration

is a very foolish thing for anyone to do.

Mistaking civility for weakness is a big mistake
when sizing up Obama.

[ProgressIn2008]

135. Let justice be done though the heavens fall, R or D. nt

[Triana]

138. They spent the entire 8 years of the Clinton administration investigating it..

....not much left to investigate but I'd invite them to have at it.

[WestSeattle2]

141. What difference does it make?

The president said it best "torture destroys the character of a nation", so what difference is there if the perps were D's or r's? Let the investigation go forward and let the chips fall where they may.

[windbreeze]

142. WE, the USA signed onto the Geneva Conventions...IF any of US are responsible

let them ALL hang...singly OR together...every damned one of them...this is outright BLACKMAIL...F*** Alexander and Shelby....wb

[WestSeattle2]

144. The blackmail attempt is a sure sign they are desperate to

kill an investigation. If you've got nothing to hide, why would you care if there is an investigation?

[tjl148]

168. ???

I would think blackmail only works if there is something to hide. If Holder folds maybe he has something to hide. If that is the case Obama needs to get rid of him.

[Piewhacket]

147. F* the repukes, FULL STEAM AHEAD! Get ON with it, dammit.

[Generator]

148. I'd sacrifice the big dog in a heartbeat to get Bush/Cheney

(sorry recovering from the flu and it's honesty day-enough with the crap!)

But of course Clinton never was actively spending his days and nights dreaming of torture and trying to make it seem legal like the evil fuckwards of the Bush admin. Rendition is the CIA bag. Guantanamo bay torture prisons,Abu Gharib is pure Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice and a bunch of other evil fuckfaces I don't have time to mention.

OH AND FUCK OFF AND DIE Republicons. Nothing Clinton ever did on his worst day in office was a bad as Bush's best.

I also love the FACT that Holder answered a questionaly HONESTLY. When the fuck ever did Gonzalez do that? GAWD...wake me up when this country isn't a nightmare because it still is.

[wisteria]

149. Let them investigate- the Clinton's have nothing to hide. n/t

[swilton]

150. BRING IT ON!

:toast:

[Lint Head]

151. Who gives a rat's ass. Criminal torturers should be jailed for war crimes.

This country needs to purge all the criminals that have ruined our nation.

[hayu_lol]

157. Might be interesting for us on the net...

to do some digging and sharing on the backgrounds of Alexander and Shelby. Ought to make for 'interesting' reading.

[Politicub]

153. No more hiding

I'm all for an investigation that goes back 20, 30 years. Bring the darkest side of the U.S. to the light of day so we can all see what was done in our name.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

156. Investigate Clinton, Papa Bush and Junior. n/t

[Hotler]

162. I second that. eom

[peacetalksforall]

158. Go for it. End this. BUT, aren't we forgetting something?

Both Houses and all executive bow to the CIA-Military-Corporations. Who is going to charge them?

And can someone please explain? If torture was OK during the Clinton admin, why the big deal about the Bybee, Yoo, Gonzales fixes and all the people who said George said do it as if it was new territory. We must be missing something or perhaps I am missing what all of you already know about this ATTEMPT at blackmail.

Can someone explain?

The starting and ending point is that the barons must have become more greedy, pompous, and completely inhuman ever since their decision along with the UK to create war for profit, own the people, own the earth and sky over them.

[DallasNE]

164. Call Their Bluff

Quantitatively you know that most will be Bush people. How many torture memos were written during the Clinton administration? I would welcome such an investigation. And I wouldn't stop at the Clinton years either as this has the look and feel of Iran-Contra written all over it.

[kimocrossman]

166. There's a diff btwn Rendition Clinton & Ext. Rendition done by Bush

[Benfea]

167. For once I agree with the Republicans...

For once I agree with the Republicans, but not for the reason they'd hoped.

FUCK YES, we should investigate Democrats too. I don't fucking care what party someone is in: if they were party to war crimes, even if just by being aware of it and failing to report the crimes to the appropriate prosecutors, then SEND THEM TO FUCKING PRISON.

Why is this even up for debate? Why aren't the investigations already going on?

We let Nixon get away with his crimes scott free, which told all future presidents they could be at least as bad as Nixon and not face any consequences. So of course Reagan pushed things, and not prosecuting him told all future presidents they could break at least that many laws and not face any consequences.

The fucking spineless Democrats virtually guaranteed we would have a president like Bush, and now they're going to repeat the same mistake again?

We're supposed to be a nation of laws, only somehow now we can't even observer the Magna Carta which predates out nation by centuries?


Fuck them all. Investigate them all.

[newspeak]

173. the question is did Clinton torture?

There were renditions, but did he actually attempt to justify torture. Did he condone torture?

[ProSense]

176. Exactly, this is a bullshit smokescreen.

Prosecute these war criminals

[L. Coyote]

180. No, the question is, "Are we going to fall for this stunt?" Answer, "Too late now!"

Everyone on this thread, with only a few exceptions went right over the cliff, and fell for the trick.
The Rs are just putting out some spin for their talk radio idiots to grasp at.

Meanwhile, why is everyone helping them along?

[GETPLANING]

181. Partisanship, pure and simple

Republicans are not at war with terrorists or America's "enemies". They are at war with the Democrats.

[TankLV]

183. Fine - but AWOL GW goes FIRST, then RAYgun - and LAST we'll look at Clinton...

I'm sure they'll LOVE to go after that fucking PHONEY SAINT RAYgun...!!!

[orbitalman]

211. & then HW, then REAGAN !

[RandomThoughts]

186. If the enhanced interrogation techniques were used in the Clinton Administration.

Why did Bush think that memos or rationals had to be written to justify his 'new' view of what was legal?

Its probable other administrations did illegal, or unsavory things. Mining harbors, renditions, killings, deals to sell weapons to free hostages, selling drugs for weapons, filming people with unknown paid prostitutes. Some of these things are documented in 1974 Congressional hearings. So it starts to be the slippery slope question of how bad can a country be and still be within needed uses of actions to protect itself. You will notice this is the common stated idea that things get worse and worse, till all is revealed, one of the reasons that secrecy is not a good thing to use to justify an action.

If you have to do something in secret to get away with it, eventually it will be known, because it will get worse and worse till it breaks everything, and someone will have to lance the boil and let the puss run.

My guess is the argument is that if people show what Bush did, the Bush side will then find anything they can that could be seen as not acceptable to society. And in typical Bush fashion they would also make up some stuff, or lie about things also.

[snot]

188. bring it on.

[defendandprotect]

189. Good News . . . Clinton-era "renditions" required there be NO TORTURE . . .!!!

CHECKED AND HAPPY TO ADD THIS ------

1. Rendition is something the Bush administration cooked up.

Nope. George W. Bush was still struggling to coax oil out of the ground when the United States "rendered to justice" its first suspect from abroad. In 1987, President Ronald Reagan authorized an operation that lured Lebanese hijacker Fawaz Younis to a boat off the coast of Cyprus, where FBI agents arrested him. Younis had participated in the 1985 hijacking of a Jordanian plane and was implicated in the hijacking of TWA Flight 847, which left a U.S. Navy diver dead. President George H.W. Bush approved the kidnapping in 1990 of Mexican physician, Humberto Alvarez Machain, who was believed to be involved in the torture and killing of a Drug Enforcement Administration official. Nothing says that renditions can only involve only suspected terrorists; the Israel's abduction of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Argentina in 1960 could be called a rendition, though the term was not yet in use.


Beginning in 1995, President Bill Clinton's administration turned up the speed with a full-fledged program to use rendition to disrupt terrorism plotting abroad. According to former director of central intelligence George J. Tenet, about 70 renditions were carried out before Sept. 11, 2001, most of them during the Clinton years.


4. Rendition is just a euphemism for outsourcing torture.

Well, not historically. The guidelines for Clinton-era renditions required that subjects could be sent only to countries where they were not likely to be tortured -- countries that gave assurances to that effect and whose compliance was monitored by the State Department and the intelligence community. It's impossible to be certain that those standards were upheld every time, but serious efforts were made to see that they were. At a minimum, countries with indisputably lousy human rights records (say, Syria) were off-limits. Another key difference: Renditions before Bush were carried out to disrupt terrorist activity, not to gather intelligence or interrogate individuals.

Now, though, the Bush team seems to have dramatically eroded such safeguards. The administration has apparently sent someone to Syria, and Khaled el-Masri, a German citizen, was evidently boosted in Macedonia and interrogated in Afghanistan in a manner that sure sounds like torture. In light of this and other revelations, the criticism that the administration has "defined down" torture looks pretty persuasive. It's probably a good bet that Congress or the next administration will reform the program, or abolish it outright.

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/1019rendition.aspx
Is Brookings right wing . . . ?

[defendandprotect]

214. And the bad news . . . Memo Says Pelosi Knew About Use of Harsh Tactics

Memo Says Pelosi Knew About Use of Harsh Tactics

By Paul Kane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 8, 2009

Intelligence officials released documents yesterday saying that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) was briefed in September 2002 about the use of harsh interrogation tactics against al-Qaeda suspects, seeming to contradict her repeated statements that she was never told the techniques were actually being used.

In a 10-page memo outlining an almost seven-year history of classified briefings, intelligence officials said that Pelosi and then-Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) were the first two members of Congress briefed on the tactics. Then the ranking member and chairman of the House intelligence committee, respectively, Pelosi and Goss were briefed Sept. 4, 2002, one week before the anniversary of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

The memo, issued to Capitol Hill by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and the Central Intelligence Agency, notes that the Pelosi-Goss briefing covered "EITs including the use of EITs" on Abu Zubaida. EIT is an acronym for enhanced interrogation technique, and Abu Zubaida, whose real name is Zayn al-Abidin Muhammed Hussein, was one of the earliest valuable al-Qaeda members captured. He also was the first to have the controversial tactic of simulated drowning, or waterboarding, used against him.

The issue of what Pelosi knew and when she knew it has become a tussle on Capitol Hill. Republicans have accused her of knowing for years about the interrogation techniques CIA agents were using and of objecting only when the tactics became public and antiwar activists protested.

In a carefully worded statement, Pelosi's office said yesterday that she had never been briefed about the use of waterboarding, only that it had been approved by Bush administration lawyers as a legal interrogation technique.

"As this document shows, the speaker was briefed only once, in September 2002. The briefers described these techniques, said they were legal, but said that waterboarding had not yet been used," said Brendan Daly, Pelosi's spokesman.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/07/AR2009050704217.html?hpid=moreheadlines

[24601]

230. Hmmm, I wonder what humane interrogations are carried

out by Israel. Any arabs renditioned there during any administrations? DUHHH! Add to that any in congress who knew or should have known anything about it and there go the former and present majority & minority leaders, as well as members of the intelligence, armed services appropriations and foreign relations committees. The entire house & senate leadership structure would be wiped out on both sides. There would be about 5 senators left and maybe 150 house members. The special elections will certainly change the landscape - no telling who would be in charge.

Now, if Congress would get off it's collective ass, do its job and actually define what is torture and what isn't, it won't be left from one Department of Justice's OLC to the next. And until the courts validate the opinion, it's just that. I propose that not providing coffee and Dunkin Donuts every morning should be on the list until the Supreme Court rules otherwise.

And what's all this crap about an AG being the top country's Law Enforcement Officer? All the departments report to the same official who actually has decision making authority - the President is the nation's top Law Enforcement Officer, Top Defense Official, Top Diplomat, etc.

[wroberts189]

193. Haha ..pubs still think they have power or relevancy ..how quaint. nt

[Enthusiast]

195. K&R! nt

[Vinca]

200. It's offensive and childish that Republicans would turn this into a playground fight.

They need to be reminded about how fast they lined up to investigate such things as Whitewater and Monica.

[radfringe]

203. good...

and then go back to poppy bush and reagan and nixon - let's reinvestigate ALL the presidents

[mdmc]

204. Good for the GOP - I support putting criminals in jail..

.

[AllyCat]

205. Do it! Anyone guilty should face punishment. We must end this

[Bluenorthwest]

207. Who cares?

Any of them of either Party who have engaged in these practices should be exposed and prosecuted. If Holder went down, I'd not shed a tear. He's no friend to me or to any of the goals I have in the political world.
So let the chips fall, let everything be known, let the guilty pay.

[Deep13]

209. They're trying to change the subject.

Yeah, if there is a real case to be made that Clinton or his people committed war crimes, then yeah, go get 'em. Nevertheless, that is not what we are talking about right now. We KNOW Bush tortured and his folks are still within the statute of limitations.

[orbitalman]

210. Screw the Repugs...

There will be no comparison in the amount and severity. Further, it was not done openly. Screw the extorting bastards.

[grahamhgreen]

212. GOOD. I knew the Republicans could stand for something right.

[ananda]

215. This is an empty threat.

Clinton and co. have already been investigated
to death.. that's over.

Besides, the Reeps are toothless tigers with a
big roar right now.. they can't get over the
fact that they no longer rule.. but are acting
like they still do.

[peace13]

218. BBBBut Clinton soiled the blue dress.

How long did we dissect that da#n thing. The rethugs were fools if there were crimes we left unanswered for while scrutinizing his actions with Monica. Go figure. Too bad we didn't turn the tables on the restroom, toe tappin' fools back then. I say that Americans want the Constitution and the rule of law. If politicians are guilty then... out with them. No jail is too good in my opinion.

[BAPhill]

220. Clean House

I say let them...lets clean house!

[cascadiance]

221. Michael Scheuer of the CIA under Clinton talks about his part in doing rendition on AJ's FaultLines

Al Jazeera's Fault Lines started its first show on Free Speech TV a week ago or so, and the first show really talks about the torture and rendition programs. Of note at around 6:30 in this show, Avi Lewis, Naomi Klein's husband, interviews Michael Scheuer, who is the one who designed the rendition program under Clinton.

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/faultlines/2009/04/20094119053680208.html

Scheuer:
"America is far safer because of the rendition program, both under Mr. Clinton and under Mr. Bush. That's always very amusing, really that when the rendition program is discussed in the media it always begins on the day Bush was inaugurated. And of course the more brutal part of the rendition program was conducted under Mr. Clinton."

Lewis:
"Under you."

Scheuer:
"Under me. Frankly at this point I'd rather kill them when we find them, than to take them anywhere."

So, I think there are skeletons in the Dem's closet too, that is why there's been a bipartisan effort to avoid transparency here.

[FraDon]

222. Welcome to the Global Blackmail Wars, 2009 Edition

Oh, history could take such a turn for the interesting.

But which interesting?

I had a teacher once who said, "except for the few who are truly still,
we are all moving toward the light, or away from it; there is no other way."

Containment for the Cabal is collapsing on multiple fronts. The outer
walls have been breached. The inner walls are threatened from within
and without.

IMHO, things are going to get a whole lot darker, before the light can
re-emerge.

[The Stranger]

223. "If you're dirty, you gotta go. Simple as that."

Movie quote/paraphrase.

[libodem]

224. Bring it on!

goon dicks. And kiss my ass!

[libodem]

225. Bring it on!

goon dicks. And kiss my ass!

[Jack Rabbit]

226. Publish and be damned

Bush, Cheney and Co. are going down.

See if we care if Ms. Impeachment-is-off-the-table goes down with them.

[Snazzy]

233. two different programs

extraordinary rendition was the Bush practice of extraditing from one country to another (and/or cia a black site) for possible torture and keeping the prisoner extrajudicial.

Rendition under Clinton was grabbing a suspect and bringing them to trial in US.

Both raise eyebrows, one tortures.

[Old Hob]

234. you know this is a lost cause don't you?

It's like the broken down rusted out car in the neighbor's yard, it ain't goin' nowhere.