Flight 3407 crew violated 'sterile cockpit' rules; pilot had failed flight tests

[Hepburn]

Source: The Buffalo News



WASHINGTON — The crew of Continental Connection Flight 3407 violated federal regulations banning extraneous conversation or activities on approach to landing, prompting the airline that managed the doomed flight to later warn pilots against idle chatter and other inappropriate actions in the cockpit.

Sources with knowledge of the National Transportation Safety Board investigation said the probe will show that the pilot, Capt. Marvin D. Renslow, and co-pilot, Rebecca Lynn Shaw, violated federal rules that require a "sterile cockpit" when a plane is flying below 10,000 feet. Renslow piloted the plane that crashed in Clarence on Feb. 12, killing 50.

...snip...

Renslow, 47, failed three Federal Aviation Administration proficiency checks before joining Colgan in 2005, sources confirmed this morning.

While pilots often fail those tests once or twice, "it is fairly uncommon to fail three," said a source with knowledge of the safety board investigation of the crash. "That's a little high. But then, why did they hire him?"



Read more: http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/667926.html

---

Listening to the news, I heard that the pilot did the exact OPPOSITE of what he should have done in the situation. The airspeed was too slow ~~ which caused the stall ~~ and he pulled back on the stick. He should have pushed the stick forward to incease the airspeed.

Wow...how sad...50 people dead because the carrier used a pilot who was less than what he should have been. I also heard that the pilot had not been re-tested for a considerable time prior to the crash and he had been up very late the evening prior to this flight.

How very, very sad...:cry:

[stray cat]

1. I think the co-pilot had taken a red eye flight in order to fly out of newark

possibly up all night getting to the airport I think from her place in Washington State.

[Hepburn]

2. Co-pilot, according to what I just heard on MSNBC....

...was skiing all day the day prior to her flight...and then apparently red-eyed to make it to work.

Fatigue by pilots is at issue in probe

http://www.buffalonews.com/180/story/667664.html

BTW: Pals of mine are often all over my butt cuz my best guy pal is a private pilot and I prefer to fly with him over commecial flights. We went to Las Vegas last weekend and flew in the twin and the flight took about 1 hour. A bit long than a commercial jet, but what I did see was all the safety checks he and his co-pilot went through and how the plane is maintained. Plus...neither of them drink alcohol, do drugs, or were rushing to make a tight schedule.

Frankly, give me that small plane over commecercial flights any day. True for any flights within the state (California) or close by areas.

:hi:

[RamboLiberal]

17. Co-pilot also had a nasty cold

She also had a cold and was suffering from congestion, sources said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30683954/

Another report I read today she mentioned that she should've called off sick.

[pleah]

3. So, will the airline be charged with negligent homicide?

Or some little slap on the wrist for 50 deaths that could have been avoided.:sarcasm:

[Hepburn]

5. Interesting idea....I am wondering about how much the airline...

...knew about the lack of expertise of the pilot. Seems that he supposedly "hid" his failed tests from the ~~ according to what I have been reading. However, IMO, they should have had a better screening system and better testing in order to have picked that up.

I can say this much: IMO, there most likely will be no civil lawsuits that will go to trial. These cases are going to settle. If you were the civil defense atty for the airline, would you want these facts in front of a jury about the pilots along with photos of the dead loved one before and after the crash?

[pleah]

7. I think they would easily lose that fight. n/t

[Hepburn]

8. Big time and rightfully so...

...there is no excuse, IMO, for what the hell happened in the Buffalo flight.

Makes me ill to think from reading all these articles that what happened is not at all an isolated situation.

Listening to MSNBC right now...about the failed tested and lack of training. More details coming out. The airlines is has confirmed.

Now...the airline admits that the pilot failed FIVE previous tests and had a spotty flight record.

Fuck this...unbelievable! :mad:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. You are all assuming the stall was avoidable

The airspeed in the simulation shows a precipitous drop in airspeed once the landing gear was put down.
Why did this happen?

[bdab1973]

20. Drag

Drag from the landing gear caused a precipitous drop in airspeed...hence why whenever I drop the gear while flying, unless I intend to continue slowing, I bump the power up.

IMHO, the carrier isn't alone in hiring and retaining pilots who fail evaluations. I've known several people in the military who have failed multiple evaluations...and in fact, there's the phrase "it's when, not if" regarding failures. It happens. Granted, this guy's record shows a less than stellar performance, but there is absolutely no law pertaining to how a company retains its pilots, so charging the company with homicide probably wouldn't work.

Bottom line, BOTH pilots failed to adequately monitor airspeed, which caused the stall. Training on stick pushers (I get to see what it does in the sim, but there's no specific stick-pusher training, per se), failed checkrides and all aside, there were two qualified pilots in that cockpit, and they let the airspeed go. Period. The safe operation of that aircraft rests with them. Not trying to malign their personalities, but let's face it, they screwed up.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. Yes. I know about landing gear drag

which is expected and usual, but I wasn't sure why it continued to plummet afer gear deployment, from 170 to 130, which is when the stick shaker kicked in.
I've since learned that at the same moment gear went down, the prop "condition" was maxed out to 1020 rpm by the pilot. Not sure why, but a pilot blog I read says going to 1020 rpm on the props creates drag in itself- and that is apparently what caused the continued drop.
Also, the co-pilot was instructed to go to flaps 15 (already at 5 degrees). However, right before hitting 130 knots, she had already noticed airspeed dropping to 140, and recluctantly clicked the flaps down to 10 degrees, and as she was doing so, the stick shaker and auto pilot horn began their warnings. (Flaps 10 just made the stall worse.) It was only then that the pilot throttled up the engines, but only to 80% power- they never went up to max power.
I think I've got it now. The pilot screwed up and caused the stall by not maintaining air speed, and made it even worse with the stick pulling.

[bdab1973]

23. You just answered your own question regarding the speed...

If you keep your power back (prop RPM has nothing to do with power) and throw the gear down, the airspeed will continuously bleed off. Additionally, increasing prop RPM causes the prop blades to flatten out, increasing drag as well (high RPM is better for climbouts, and on turboprops with free turbines, pilots increase prop RPM to max prior to approach to prepare for the event of a missed approach and/or go-around). The copilot extending the flaps only made it worse (although extending flaps decreases stall speed, it also increases drag and can slow an airplane faster).

Yes, the pilot apparently screwed up by 1) allowing airspeed to bleed off until the stick shaker activated and 2) failed to execute proper stall recovery procedures, which is fairly uniform throughout the flying world...relax back pressure, level the wings and increase power towards max until the airplane recovers.

The copilot failed to make a timely assertive callout to the pilot that airspeed was dangerously low. In the world of modern crew resource management, you can forget captain and first officer, think of it as pilot flying (PF) and pilot monitoring (PM). The PM has a duty to back up the PF and keep the airplane out of a dangerous situation.

This whole focus on behalf of the victim's families and news media on pilot pay, stick-pusher training and commuting to work is nothing more than a diversion. Those things are perhaps contributing, but none are causal factors in the crash. Think of it this way...it's early in the morning and a driver is late to work...he has to commute from the suburbs because he can't afford to live in the city where his job is, and it's raining. He takes the cloverleaf exit on the highway too fast and loses control and hits a pole, killing him and his passenger who's carpooling with him to save money. Does the family find fault in the driver's employer for paying him too little to live closer to work, which makes him wake up too early and thus drive tired? Do they find fault in the fact that it's raining? Do they find fault in the state, that failed to give him X hours of training in how to recover an out-of-control car?

No, they fault the driver for driving too fast. Everything else are just factors that compounded the situation. Same thing in this mishap...bottom line, the crew failed to keep their airspeed at the calculated reference approach speed, got slow, stalled the airplane, and failed to execute a timely stall recovery.

FYI, stall recovery is taught from day one in pilot training. I find it hard to believe that people want to hold Colgan responsible because he "wasn't trained" when in fact the pilot AND copilot were both trained in stall recoveries and passed numerous FAA evaluations (for private, commercial and eventually airline transport pilot certificates, in addition to line training and annual recurrent training at the airline). Some of you might say "well, he didn't pass"...actually, he must have passed most of them or he wouldn't have held an ATP rating, nor would he have been hired in the first place.

Anyways, just tired of watching the news media get it wrong again, and go after parties that are either not responsible at all or only have a passing responsibility in the mishap, only to make news interesting. FAIL.

[robinlynne]

13. From the story I think they will be charged with negligent homicide.

[pleah]

14. I hope so. n/t

[LisaL]

31. I am pretty sure you think wrong.

Ridiculous.
The pilots are both dead and I pretty much doubt anybody at the airline could or would be charged criminally.

[mn9driver]

4. Tragic, but not surprising.

The small operators pay, benefits and work rules for flight crews are very bad. Employment conditions have deteriorated across the entire airline industry in the last ten years, but the regional employees started on the low side and their conditions are now just barely good enough to keep a trickle of applications coming in.

Most of these applicants would never have been considered years ago, but now they are the only ones available. Who wants to walk into an entry level flying job with $100,000 plus debt and get paid $20,000 to start? Answer: Almost no one.

[Hepburn]

6. The article on these small providers support exactly what you...

...have posted.

I had no clue about how bad the little regionals are. Wow! :scared:

I learned a lot just this AM rading about all of this and how unsafe the sky can be.

How sad it took the deaths of 50 people to learn some of these facts...:cry:

[bdab1973]

21. Too many pilots

This is a simple case of a career field flooded with would-be applicants...it drives the pay down because so many people are actually WILLING to make that little pay in hopes of getting experience to move up to the major airlines. To make things worse, there are many others that enter the career field from the military that are highly desired by the operators, making many of the regional guys and gals (most of whom get their flying ratings through civilian schools) even more plentiful.

Basically, you could have hundreds of qualified applicants for each position (especially these days given that most airlines are NOT hiring), and someone is going to be ok with making $20,000 a year for a little while. Airlines are notoriously expensive businesses with very high overhead...and if management can hire a qualified pilot for $20K instead of $50K, they will do it. It's simply a reality. Major airlines can and do pay much better, because they can afford to be picky. The regionals have much smaller operating budgets, and cannot.

[No Elephants]

32. You'd think that "too many pilots" would free all airlines from any need to hire poor pilots.

[DU9598]

9. Re-regulate the airlines already

How many more tragedies can we expect before the government has to step in and make private enterprise keep safety standards at a reasonable level?

[Hepburn]

11. Everyday, IMO, we see more and more examples of how...

...corporate America has been allowed to screw the public.

When will the public learn that the conservatives, to them, this is what small government is all about ~~ allowing this kind of shit.

[maseman]

10. A friend and fellow pilot of mine

has worked year to fly for the airlines. He has paid his dues, flight instructed, ferried airplanes, etc. He has a ton of experience now in twins and turbo-props.

Instead of flying for a regional carrier where he wanted to be he flies part time for FedEx and flight instructs. He makes nearly double what he would make for a regional. Of course no benfits or healthcare but he's making about $38K per year versus $22.

I will say something about the tests...I don't know how rigorous the commercial flying tests were that this captain took. I'm a pilot and can tell you though that the amount of testing one must take prior to even flying for an airline is deep. You must get your single engine private pilot license first, then you work on getting instrument rated, commercially licensed and then type rated for a specific airplane model. Even if this guy failed a test a few times he had a ton of training.

Many times pilots with tons of experience do stupid things because they become too relaxed. I knew a flight instructor with over 6,000 hours of flying who landed with the gear up. She lived thank god.

[Hepburn]

12. I have a pal who is flight instructor, certified on jets, etc...

...and worked for UPS. And, yeah, the pay sucked and so did the benefits, but better than the small regional commercial companies.

He now, however, works in law enforcement and does prop, jets and helicopter and has benefits like crazy.

He has some astronomical amount of hours...I cannot remember how many, but I know when I heard, my mouth dropped open.

:hi:

PS: Glad your pal with the gear up landing walked away.

[No Elephants]

33. Hours of training are not the point, though. Flying the plane safely is the point. Supposedly,

that is what a test would measure; and this guy never passed a test. As far as being too relaxed, maybe that contributed to the crash, given what the OP says, but he was unlikely to have been too relaxed during all three tests that he failed.

Sometimes, people just don't have the knack for something, for whatever reason.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. a friend of mine quit a regional airline

Not specifically for safety reasons but extreme frustration with the way the company was run and most of all an unintelligible seniority list that saw people upgraded to Captain over much more qualified First Officers. Fully qualified pilots were retiring never having made it to Captain.

She hated the TSA, hated the company, hated the union and hated the mainline airline they were contracted to fly for - she stuck around until promoted to Captain and then left to fly virtually the same plane as a corporate jet for significantly more a year and where she is treated like a professional and not a school bus driver.

[Algorem]

16. do believe the hype.

[hedgehog]

19. I think I heard that at any given time, something limke 20% of the people

in the air are on one of these flights. Under the circumstances, the safety record is incredible! On the other hand, my husband is taking flights into and out of Syracuse on the same airline several times a month!

[WhiteTara]

24. all because they hired based on the lowest dollar

to pay the pilots. They should shut that airline down immediately.

[bdab1973]

29. Pay had nothing to do with this accident...

It's simple...the pilots allowed the speed to bleed off too low, and failed to execute a proper stall recovery. Pilots making much more than they did have done the same thing. For what it's worth, the captain was paid significantly more than $23K a year.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

30. What's worse, the pilot actually overrode the emergency stall (stickpusher)

[customerserviceguy]

25. I've always felt that regional airlines sucked

now, here's the proof.

[hedgehog]

26. If anyone wants to know why New York State needs a high speed rail system,

just look at the photo in the OP.

[mule_train]

27. Ice on wings should have put him on high alert

ice changes the shape of the wing undoing the 'airfoil' that makes the wing lift

and ice greatly adds to the weight of the plane, both lower the stall speed quickly

any pilot talking about ice on the wings shoudl put it down and de-ice

[bdab1973]

28. Actually that's incorrect...

Ice increases stall speed, and increased weight also increases stall speed.

There is generally no need to land immediately and "de-ice" if the airplane is accumulating ice unless the aircraft is not equipped with an anti-ice or de-ice system. The Q400 has a de-ice system consisting of de-ice boots. Most turbine-powered aircraft have either de-ice boots or anti-icing heated leading edges. Unless it's severe icing, those aircraft can handle ice accumulation.