Osama bin Laden "not alive": (Pakistan President) Zardari

[sabra]

Source: PTI News

Washington, May 11 (PTI) The world's most wanted terrorist Osama bin Laden is "not alive," Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has said while candidly describing the elusive terror mastermind as a US "operator" who threatened to destabilise Benazir Bhutto government in 1989.
"I've said before that he (Osama) -- I don't think he's alive," Zardari told NBC news channel in an interview when asked "where is Osama bin Laden?" "I have a strong feeling and I have sole reason to believe that, because I've asked my counterparts in the American intelligence agencies and they haven't heard (from) him since seven years," he said.

Asked whether Pakistan was "not actively" hunting for Osama, Zardari said that the world was looking for the fugitive al-Qaeda leader.

"I think the world is looking for him, and we are part of the world's lookout brigade," he said.


Read more: http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/45FA6BE2A25FD428652575B300402910?OpenDocument

[bullimiami]

1. they havent heard from him for seven years yet they keep releasing tapes?

[sabra]

4. but but Bush kept saying the bin Laden stated Iraq is the central fight in the war of terra!

hmmm... :sarcasm:

[No Elephants]

19. The key is, does the tape refer to a contemporary event? Ithe last time that

happened was years ago, unless you count his reference to the 2004 elections, but who knows when he taped that?

He could have made a ton of audio tapes with someone, to be released over time.

Or maybe his guy meant a sighting, or an intercepted cell phone call, etc. Something that would indicate unequivocally that the guy is still alive.

So, one thing does not contradict the other. Al Jazeera could be releasing new audio tapes every month. That doesn't prove he's still alive. But the tape could be new to us.

[SpiralHawk]

2. "But Binni Baby's ghost is still doing a heckuva job. Smirk." - xCommander AWOL (R)

"Binni worked wonders for us Republicon Homelanders, and we will never forget him. Like 1984's Big Brother with Emmanuel Goldstein we'll never let Binni Baby 'die,' or fail to use an opportunity to promote FEAR among Amuricans by mentioning his name. Smirk."

- xCommander AWOL (R)

[Raster]

3. "So, 15 Saudis with boxcutters walk into an airport..."

[JonLP24]

5. They haven't heard from him for 7 years?

What about all that noise Bin Laden made the weekend before the election(2004)? Probaly a fake.

[xiamiam]

8. certainly a fake...imo he's been dead since right after tora bora...nt

[LynneSin]

6. My money is on the fact that Bin Laden has been dead for a few years...

but Pakistan leaders didn't want Bush to get any credit.

[CJCRANE]

7. It will be a big anticlimax

when we find out that he died in the big earthquake that hit Pakistan in 2005.

That's my prediction.

As for the 2004 video that was probably genuine. The full transcript shows that he never endorsed Kerry but actually said some very damaging things about Bush that the MSM never released (was only available on the al-Jazeera website).

[newspeak]

9. this is also in the GE threads

Bhutto stated on David Frost's show, OBL was dead. In the GE thread, someone posted an article from an Egyptian paper, that OBL died on Dec. 26, 2001 of lung complications. Some believe he died during that great earthquake in Afghanistan. If he died in 2001, remember he was very ill, then it seems that the great US propaganda machine has been working overtime to feed the American people shite--to keep their visions of WAR AND FEAR ongoing. I'm sure many here at DU remember the fat OBL--you know Saddam had many doubles, it would be easy to find doubles for OBL. If OBL died in 2001, to me, it is a crime against the American people to perpetuate a lie to keep the populace in fear and justify war because of the boogeyman, OBL. Remember when * stated publicly that he didn't care about finding OBL? I bet he knew he no longer was alive--however, the important thing is he no longer needed OBL for his agenda--he'd already got his war.

[New Earth]

10. This makes sense to me

And every point you made is exactly what I was thinking about when this guy said this, this past week.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

11. Given that he wasn't "captured" in late October 2008 ...

... I suspect he's been dead for quite a while. And that those who created this war have known for some time.

But I always considered the possibility that he'd long been in custody, getting the very best of the very best of medical care, so the he could be brought out on parade just before the 2008 presidential election.

[stubtoe]

12. Bin Laden as a "US operator"????

This opens up a whole new can of worms.

[ronnie624]

13. "CIA has not confirmed"

:rofl:

[Naipes]

14. PROVE IT! nm

[Bragi]

15. If he's dead, explain this...

If OBL is dead, then the AQ leadership would obviously know it.

Given that, for them, becoming a martyr is something to be sought after and celebrated, why would they pretend he is still alive if they knew he is dead?

Why wouldn't they just make him the number one poster boy for martyrdom?

Frankly, I can understand that U.S. fearmongers might prefer to have OBL alive than dead, but far as I can tell, it would make no sense for AQ to play along with this.

Any opposite theories out there?

- B

[JackRiddler]

18. Who is the "AQ leadership"?

What, for that matter, is AQ?

The name itself ("The Base" in Arabic) is a Western designation, and according to the late British FM Robin Cook came from "the database" of "Afghan Arab" mujahedeen maintained by Western intel.

Before 9/11 Bin Ladin's networks did not call themselves AQ but something like "the Front Against Crusaders and Jews." After 9/11, it's hard to trust any statements about it when you don't know who exactly is claiming what under which name.

The size of the groups and for that matter the real risks they pose (without help from the inside) are vastly exaggerated, since that's what justifies imperial adventures around the world and the incredible Pentagon budget. (And to think they once needed a whole Soviet Union to do that.)

Even if you believe the entire official 9/11 conspiracy theory, AQ is a loose network of cells, especially since its supposed central coordination was smashed (according to US propaganda) back in 2001-2002. So how does any one group know for sure what's happening with the rest? If Bin Ladin was a genuine leader, exactly as described by the US propaganda, but if he went into hiding in some remote area with just a few people, and died without those who were with him putting out the news: Who would know?

Theoretically, any agency can set up their own "AQ" branches to manipulate the rest, to run sting operations, or to stage false flags. (If they haven't done so for the first two reasons, then by their own professed standards they're not doing their jobs, which is to consort with unsavory characters.) Would it really surprise you if this is what happened in Iraq, given that "AQ" was the cause of the Sunni-Shi'a civil war and the decision of the real Sunni insurgents to capitulate and join the American payroll?

[ronnie624]

22. Good post.

Some interesting information:

<http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7787>

[Bragi]

27. Your answer is incomplete

I don't disagree with much of what you wrote, but I do think:

a) that AQ qualifies as a "loose network of cells" as you put it above;

b) that in even the loosest of jihadist networks, the major leaders would know each other, and at least know who is dead and who isn't; and therefore

c) major jihadists would know if OBL was dead; and finally

d) if OBL is dead, they would have no reason whatsoever of keeping OBL's death a secret. (In fact, there would be real and pointless risks in keeping his death a secret.)

- B

[JackRiddler]

33. I don't think so...

And I consider what I wrote complete enough.

For your answer to work, you have to deal with sort of the reverse question. I'm assuming you think OBL is as advertised in the US propaganda: a genuine Islamist extremist committed to leading a war without compromise on America and Israel; and not just a construct (of whatever kind - it wouldn't necessarily mean he was a fake).

So, if he's been alive all these years, why have the messages been so few and far between?

You might buy the government's line that they've been preventing attacks (load of bullshit, given the bogus examples they've given), or that they've degraded AQ infrastructure and killed the personnel and thus prevented attacks that way. But what's been keeping the living OBL from making monthly pronouncements in a fashion that leaves no doubt he's alive and the genuine article? Why are the videos we've received from him fake-looking and utterly pathetic. I mean come on: the last one in 2007 was the same one from 2004, with new audio dubbed over 12 minutes of a still frame.

Alternatively, maybe the leadership you think exists and is well-networked (which I doubt very much) decided they would cover up his death, and screw the martyrship angle: he's more of a threat and a defiance to Satan if the world thinks he's alive, and they can continue using him as the face for the next 20 years. This frees the living "real" leaders to be more low-profile.

[Bragi]

36. You wrote:

For your answer to work, you have to deal with sort of the reverse question. I'm assuming you think OBL is as advertised in the US propaganda: a genuine Islamist extremist committed to leading a war without compromise on America and Israel; and not just a construct (of whatever kind - it wouldn't necessarily mean he was a fake).

Most of my knowledge of OBL comes from reading books about him and about AQ. Authors Eric Margolis, Lawrence Wright, and Jason Burke are my main sources, along with various media sources. I also read the compilation of OBL's statements in "Messages to the World."

From this, I don't understand him to be the cartoon character "as advertised in the US propaganda" but I do see him as being, as you put it, "a genuine Islamist extremist committed to leading a war without compromise on America and Israel." Nothing I've read or encountered suggests otherwise. Feel free to enlighten me on this.

So, if he's been alive all these years, why have the messages been so few and far between?

Good question, one which I have thought about.

First, I think the main reason for the scarcity of statements is that he knows each time he sends in a statement for broadcast, the broadcast and the manner of its distribution leaves clues as to his whereabouts, and about who knows where he is. In consequence, he only sends in broadcasts when he feels he must do so.

Secondly, he doesn't actually need to make more public statements to stay number one on the jihadists playlist. He sees himself as a man of action, not of words. His words are released for explicit purposes, and seldom is the West the target audience. His statements are almost always intended to inspire his supporters, or to meet what he sees as Koranic dictates (e.g. warning of upcoming attacks.)

Finally, my sense is that OBL and AQ have a totally different sense of "timing" than we do, and also a different sense of "momentum". Here we have a man who talks about undoing injustices done to Muslims hundreds of years ago. Here we have a man who had the world reeling on 9/11, and who instead of rushing in with more attacks to keep the world destabilized, contented himself with spending years covertly planning his next moves.

I think the reason for this is that OBL (and most jihadists) are operating in a long-term, historical time, not in modern "PR" time, where immediate momentum is greatly prized. Unlike Western leaders, OBL cares more about history than about tomorrow.

Those be my views. Obviously, I have interest in the subject of OBL, and a viewpoint, but I'm not offended in any way by people who take a different view of OBL than I do, or for that matter, who take a different view from those who have researched and written on OBL.

I just don't ascribe to the notion that OBL was either made-up, or was killed long ago. But I'm still prepared to weigh evidence and arguments in support of that notion.

- B

[AlphaCentauri]

35. could it be that OBL was helping to find out who the perpetrators were?

speculating if OBL was making those videos to make the real perpetrators come out and claim that he was not the head of the organization.

[CJCRANE]

24. He would only be a martyr if killed in battle n/t

[Xithras]

41. Because OBL is seen as a hero to many. In reality, he probably died in 2006

The Saudi's intercepted a message sent to his family in 2006 claiming that he had died of typhoid. Because of the way it was sent, the message is generally considered to be credible, but there's no way to confirm it.

It might be that AQ doesn't want people to realize that the mighty OBL, "defier of the west" was brought down by a lowly water bug. Or it might simply be that they're capitalizing on the authority of his name.

[madamesilverspurs]

16. Hmmmmm...

A particular brand of fanaticism is the life force, the reason for existence, of Al Qaeda; it calls its adherents to martyrdom in its version of Jihad. They use the death of any Muslims anywhere (including in Iraq, which was no friend of Al Qaeda under Saddam)as examples of martyrdom at the hand of 'the great satan'. Such examples are very effective recruiting tools for Al Qaeda, and the warnings about that were summarily dismissed by the Bush team in their determination to create a war in Iraq. Bin Laden's death would be the ultimate martyrdom and the announcement would likely bring unprecedented numbers to Al Qaeda. Keeping his death a secret would be a bizarre inconsistency.

IMHO

[CJCRANE]

23. If he died in an "act of God" like an earthquake

that wouldn't be very good PR for al-Qaeda so I'm sure they'd keep it quiet (or if he died of an illness).

[madamesilverspurs]

26. Perhaps. But I think we need to keep in mind

that we're not the only ones capable of "spinning" things. And Bin Laden's group has been 'spinning' stuff for years.

[Bragi]

30. They care about "PR"?

Let's say they did care about American-style PR, so what would be the problem if he was killed or just died unspectacularly?

Why would they then pretend he was still alive? Especially when you consider that eventually the truth will out, and then, from a "PR" perspective, they would look bad, and be exposed as liars? What's the benefit there?

Why not just say Alla came and took away their beloved OBL ?

- B

[madamesilverspurs]

31. Not PR, rather presenting

the event in such a manner as to encourage enrolling in their lists. They can't use 'natural causes' as a recruiting tool. They come from a culture completely different from ours, their world view also differs; our paradigm doesn't apply to their thought processes.

[CJCRANE]

32. You could ask the same thing about Bushco...

if they knew that Bin Laden had died of natural causes would it suit their purposes to announce it?

I don't think so.

It suits neither side:

For al-Qaeda OBL is the figurehead, for Bushco he is the bogeyman - he is just as useful "alive" to both of them.

On edit: there have been announcements that Bin Laden is dead, it depends on the MSM on whether they want to publicize that fact or not. As we've seen they are capable of withholding a lot of information.

[Bragi]

28. I concur /nt

[JackRiddler]

17. "They haven't heard from him"?

And gee, they used to be so tight.

Luckily there are always the video postcards from the producers (presumably multiple producers) of fake Bin Ladin messages.

[No Elephants]

20. AFAIK, we haven't had a video in a long time.

[JackRiddler]

25. 2007

That was the one with the same "Bin Ladin" footage as in 2004, where the video pauses on a single frame for 12 minutes while the audio continues. But good enough for the US and Western media to front for a week as very significant. There was also a claim of an audio find recently, I forget, but that one wasn't so big.

What a joke.

[No Elephants]

38. Old video footage with previously unpublished audio is not really new video, is it? And, no matter

what it was, the media really did have to report it. Describing it as significant, however, is ambiguous, at best. What was yhe significance? That it was old video?


Well, anyway, I certainly do hope the POS is dead. And I hope a few other POS's follow him fast.

[JackRiddler]

39. I don't describe these fake videos as significant - the US propaganda decides...

what is "significant." And 2007 was the last time they pretended OBL had put out a video and ran it all day on TV and parsed the words as though it was really him and for the most part didn't mention that it was obviously the same earlier (fake) video from 2004 with new audio.

And yet even we are chump enough to be talking about Bin Ladin as anything other than a construct of Western official propaganda, certainly post-2001.

[Golden Raisin]

21. Just ask John McCain

who kept braying and bragging all during the presidential campaign that he knew how to find/capture Bin Laden.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

29. Obama should take credit for his death. Just like Reagan and the end of the USSR.

Why not?

[ohio2007]

34. Must be time for #2 to voice over yet another photo shop to prove otherwise

:sarcasm:

the mountain sits on mohammad bin Laden and the Egyptian doctor won't take "these lies" sitting down for another minute.

[mikelgb]

37. He's not dead!

he's resting

[MrsBrady]

40. i've thought he was dead for a long time

...Bush wanted him "dead or alive"....and then all of a sudden "I don't care where he is, I'm not that concerned."
I just always thought that that meant he was dead and they didn't want to say so...so they could keep the war machine going.

imo