Flight 93 panel member resigns over eminent domain

[RamboLiberal]

Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

SOMERSET, Pa. -- A Flight 93 Federal Advisory Commission member has resigned because of the government's plan to take seven property owners' land for the memorial.

Somerset County Commissioner Pamela Tokar-Ickes says she doesn't support using eminent domain to get the land.

The National Park Service says it must acquire the land so the memorial can be built by the 10th anniversary of the terrorist attacks.

The park service says it's been unsuccessful in negotiations, but property owners maintain negotiations haven't happened. Under eminent domain, the value will be decided in court.

The park service established the commission to make a recommendation for the planning, design, construction and management of the memorial.


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09132/969574-455.stm

[texastoast]

1. SEVEN families have to give up their land?

Make a smaller memorial.

Fucking eminent domain crap anyway.

[uppityperson]

2. Good, taking someone's land seems a bit backwards of an idea for this

after all, freedom isn't free.

They want to make a memorial so are trying to take people's land, whether they want to sell or not, and pay whatever they think is fair.

The terrorists have won again

[bluestateguy]

3. Now is not a good time to have your property seized by eminent domain

Their properties would have been worth more two years or even one year ago.

[tularetom]

6. It's never a good time

I understand what you mean but the owners never receive fair market value for their property. It's just that fair market value in this depressed market is a lot less.

I've had personal experience with this. And even though I got a settlement that was enough to enable me to retire a couple years early, I still got screwed. And I would have got screwed a lot worse if I hadn't forced them to take me to court and have alternate valuations considered. What I was offered was a friggin insult.

[tularetom]

4. I'm with her

Using eminent domain to acquire property for schools, roadways, utilities etc. is OK.

Using it for ANY other purpose is wrong.

Google "Kelo v. New London" if you really want to get pissed off about this topic. Hint: It was the "liberal" wing of the court that decided this.

[ejpoeta]

7. i agree. it is wrong. is there anything that can be done to stop this???

will they go to court? i hope they fight it because this is baloney!

[tularetom]

11. According to the Supreme Court they're screwed

It no longer matters what the government wants to do with your property.

Give it to Wal Mart to build another crappy store? Thats OK.

Take your small business to put in a touristy mall? No prob.

Used to be a government taking had to be for a public purpose. Now according to the overrated justice Souter and some of his buds, creating minimum wage retail jobs is deemed to be a public purpose.

I hope they fight it too but I'm afraid they are fucked.

[ejpoeta]

14. this is the slippery slope thing folks should REALLY worry about....

not if same sex marriage will lead to people wanting to marry animals. the government can just come in and take your property and you can't do anything about it. you bought it... you took care of it.... you pay taxes.... and you have no rights against the government... they can offer you crap and if you don't take it,you just lose it. it's bullshit!! it's very sad. but look over there.... a blonde model posed for some nekkid pictures!! oh and look over there..... there's a blonde girl missing!

[pnorman]

36. "Kelo"! That's the name I was tying to recall, when I came upon this thread!

If I remember corectly, not only Souters but Stevens had also signed off on that!

Ever since "Bush v Gore", I've held Stevens in the highest regard! ("Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's Presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law.")

pnorman

[tularetom]

37. Yep Stevens wrote the majority opinion

And the court's "liberal" and "moderate" justices all signed off on it.

The baddies all opposed it.

It did not help my opinion of the various justices.

[Initech]

5. WTF do they need all that land for? That would make it bigger than the WWII memorial in DC!

[defendandprotect]

8. Like the wars that are going on now 6++ years vs the 5 year WWII . . .!!!

[Mariana]

40. The heroes of flight 93 are more important than the heroes of WWII.

After all, terrorism is the greatest threat this nation has ever faced, etc. etc. blah blah blah.

:sarcasm:

This is disgusting.

Edited to add smiley.

[mikeytherat]

9. The proposed memorial site is over 2200 acres! Almost 3-1/2 square miles!

http://www.examiner.com/x-6670-Atlanta-Libertarian-Examiner~y2009m5d11-Flight-93-memorial--at-what-price

That's insane.

mikey_the_rat

[Metta]

13. That's the heavy hand of governmental overreach. It's just wrong. Happy karma to those involved.

It's way excessive. Especially, if, as the families say, there haven't been any negotiations.

[Mariana]

41. Negotiate? Those landowners should be honored!

Do they hate America?

:sarcasm:

[Blue_Tires]

15. i posted in another thread just how big 2200 acres was...

that figure alone should raise red flags...

[frylock]

18. lots of space for the log ride and petting zoo

[mikeytherat]

20. And the gift shop.

mikey_the_rat

[frylock]

25. oh yeah..

you gotta get your official Let's Roll® gear.

[Wednesdays]

44. Maybe they're going to add a Disneyland or something

Now, that would be ultra-cool!


(Do I really have to add the sarcasm thingie?)

[Ms. Toad]

45. Given how the memorial site is laid out now,

the size is not unreasonable.

The loved ones, many of whom participate in maintaining the current make-shift memorial consider the actual crash site a cemetary because they were unable to retrieve and remove all of the remains. The make-shift memorial itself is on a hill overlooking the crash site. Between the two, they intend make it a reflective area that will allow more public access without offending the family members whose loved ones remains are scattered and intermingled with the surrounding land.

I do think they should negotiate with the landowners and pay a fair price - and it sounds like that hasn't happened from the landowner's perspective - but this is not just a memorial, it is a gravesite in which the remains cannot be isolated to a small plots. The largest piece of debris (from the plane) was one of the engines - the rest of the plane was generally in pieces most of which were quite small - 2-5" in size; people fared less well. Significant remains were spread over an area the size of a football field - with some human remains being located and identified miles from the site.

[AlphaCentauri]

48. Bulldozer will clear any remains left as they build the memorial

[Ms. Toad]

56. I believe the intent is to leave

the parcel around the crash, with the most concentrated remains, intact as "sacred ground."

Currently, only members of the family are allowed close to it.

[happyslug]

49. Of abandoned strip mines

Flight 93 landed in the middle of Somerset County Strip mines, no homes are being taken, only land, and land that is almost worthless given that it was stripped.

From the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat:
http://www.tribune-democrat.com/local/local_story_132235448.html

Somerset Daily American on this resignation:
http://www.dailyamerican.com/articles/2009/05/13/news/local/news816.txt

National Park Service on the Flight 93 memorial:
http://www.nps.gov/flni

I suspect the problem for the National Park Service is that the surface owners of the land probably do NOT own the mineral rights, and the Park Service wants BOTH. Furthermore they appear to be long term leases of the land, both mineral and real, and the park Service wants to end those also.

Earlier articles on this item:
http://www.dancewithshadows.com/aviation/land-deal-signed-to-build-memorial-for-victims-of-united-airlines-flight-93-in-the-911-attack-in-pasadena/

[LisaM]

10. Why are they even making a memorial?

I'm still not convinced that Rummy's slip of the tongue wasn't true - I think it's highly likely that the plane was shot down.

If so, it will mar the memorial.

[ConcernedCanuk]

16. "it's highly likely that the plane was shot down." - 'zactly why the Admin wants the land

.
.
.

keep any evidence under federal control

wouldn't want a wee piece of a US missile showing up in a farmer's field

All the incidents of 911 are suspicious

The planes making it to the towers,

the towers perfect straight down demolition

The hole in the pentagon, lack of airplane debris around the pentagon

the disappearance of flight 93

All these mysteries remind me of the assassination of JFK

Too many questions

not enuf answers

:freak:

[LisaM]

21. Yes - that's my suspicion too.

Will we ever know?

[dysfunctional press]

53. not this shit again...

as for the pentagon- i personally know someone who witnessed the plane striking the pentagon.
the only 'mysteries' are how the tin-foil hatters are able to put (somewhat)coherent sentences together.

[Psephos]

58. Keep the fly swatter handy

It's May, and Truthers are emerging from the sun-warmed ground like cicadas.

lol

[Metta]

12. They died for freedoms so, let's take these folks' land.

So, where's the change we've been suckered to believe in?

[Javaman]

17. plant an apple orchard and give the fruit to the homeless. nt

[texastoast]

27. There you are

I'll vote for you on this idea.

[PufPuf23]

19. My emotions are so hopeless in this type of thread

because of what I thought we had and we have lost.

I try not to make negative posts but the 9-11 myth is BS.

We will be healthy and on a life affirming and upward curve when the denial stops and the rot is removed. Pragamatically the answer is a re-distribution of power and material wealth and humankind being in a committed marriage to the Earth and our own genus and species.

[glitch]

33. True - but you did manage to take a negative and make something positive out of it.

a positive ideal anyway :hi:

[Politicalboi]

22. So then take

WTC property from Silverstein. Ok let's give him $24.00. LOL!

[balantz]

23. Maybe they need a bigger area so they can keep looking for the missing plane?

Where is that plane anyway? :shrug:

[Beam Me Up]

31. It's all down under the ground in that hole, don't cha know.

:eyes:

[balantz]

34. Really?! It all went into this hole?! Did the density of earth take a holiday that day?

http://media.graytvinc.com/images/crash+site+flight+93.jpg
:silly:

[Beam Me Up]

35. Yup. That is what our government tells us and as we all know they would NEVER

lie. Especially about a thing like 9/11! And even if they did, SURELY the corporate owned media would expose them!!

:eyes:

[Ignis]

51. Careful, you'll invoke the wrath of the Coincidence Theorists. (nt)

[balantz]

57. .

[Hawkowl]

24. The passengersDIED for emminent domain.

Why can't people understand that these airline passengers gave the ultimate sacrifice in order to promote communism? The people now demand that these greedy land owners give up their land so we can make people we live in a free country where freedom isn't free?

[2Design]

26. not right - just put a small stone or something - they have no right

haven't they taken enough around the world for the 3000 who died - how many more times that have died - this is far enough

[windbreeze]

28. This can happen to ANY of us...all "they" have to do, is come up with a reason

to steal our land...and WE have NO say about it...I wonder how the people who died on that plane would feel to know something like this was being done in their name????Perhaps the relatives of those people should get involved??....This will become, the most hated memorial in this country....wonderful legacy...no??...wb

[unblock]

29. i'm not 100% opposed to eminent domain, but it seems overkill in this case

eminent domain for something where the social and community good vastly outweighs the dislocation of a very small number of people i can understand, provided that they're ACTUALLY fairly compensated (which means MORE than market price, after all market price is for VOLUNTARY participants). early use such as clearing a path for train tracks may have made sense.

but where is the compelling social and community need for taking THAT PARTICULAR LAND? surely there's a smaller or slightly different location that would work just as well, where there are people willing to move voluntarily. is the holocaust museum pointless because it's not in auschwitz?

forcing people out of their homes for this is ridiculous.

[w4rma]

30. Why do they want so much land for a memorial? (nt)

[Nihil]

43. It has nothing to do with the memorial but everything to do with the cover-up.

Still, I'm sure that people will be happy to accept their
new 9/11 theme park with propaganda sign-boards to support
the same old lies ... anything to avoid having to face the
truth and disrupt their little fantasy world of peace, justice
and truth for all ...

:banghead:

[Hoopla Phil]

32. I wonder how many donors will want their money back when this happens.

[dgibby]

38. Sooo,

does this mean we can declare eminent domain and take the Pentagon for a Memorial? That could work on a whole lot of levels!

[roody]

39. So glad I do not live in one of those communist countries

like Cuba. Let freedom ring.

[Kolesar]

42. The National Park Service budget should be spent on conservation, not on right wing messaging

This is a stupid as those parks that put up flags for every day the hostages were in captivity. Remember the hostages? There were 52 of them held for 444 days. Who the fuck cares?

And who the fuck cares about Shanksville? In twenty years are families going to drive an hour off the PA Turnpike to go see a visitor center in an old strip mine? "Kids, let's just drive on to Breezewood and rent a motel with a pool."

[nichomachus]

46. Without the memorial, they can't keep the 9-11 myths alive n/t

[Vidar]

47. Kudos to the resigner.

[mule_train]

52. 2nd that

yes, those people should be honored, no doubt about it

but it should be done in a manner consistent with ordinary people who respect others

[OneBlueSky]

50. guess the fact that no airplane parts were found in or near that hole in the ground . . .

is kind of irrelevant, huh? . . . we STILL don't know what happened to Flight 93, but it's a pretty sure bet that it didn't make that hole . . . there would have been parts -- BIG parts (tires, landing gear, engines, etc.) -- everywhere, but according to witnesses, there was nothing resembling an aircraft found in or near the "crash site" . . . although things like plane engines WERE found in a lake several miles away . . . things that make you go "hmmmm" . . .

[hugo_from_TN]

54. Yes, except for engine parts, the data recorders, etc.

Take this crap to the dungeon.

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/United_Airlines_Flight_93_-_debris

[pinniped]

55. So, what happens if the memorial isn't built by 2011?

The National Park Service says it must acquire the land so the memorial can be built by the 10th anniversary of the terrorist attacks.


WIll the Earth cease to spin on its axis?

MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST

What's with this MUST shit?

I don't think 2200+ acres is big enough.

[No Elephants]

59. More props to the resigner. Another reason to be leery of Commissions.

[No Elephants]

60. Whatever happened to putting up a simple, single statue as a memorial? This was

done in my town. One statue for all Civil War vets, one for all World War I vets, one for all firefighters, etc. They were in our public parks, maybe one or two to a park.

I can remember looking up at them at maybe age 7, reading the plaques solemnly and finding them very moving each time they came into my range of vision. No tour buses, no concessions, etc. It worked.

[ima_sinnic]

61. oh, right, people are now going to plan "memorial pilgrimages" to the Shanksville theme park

c'mon kiddies, load up your gear, we're spending our week vacation solemnly remembering the people who mysteriously disappeared during the biggest cover-up in history. I've got us all booked at the Motel 6, with continental breakfast, gift shop, pool, and in-room coffee maker. AND we get a bus tour of the strip mined land that was seized by the government to remind us of our precious freedoms!