Thousands beaten, raped in Irish reform schools

[Akoto]

Source: Associated Press

DUBLIN (AP) -- A fiercely debated, nine-year investigation into Ireland's Roman Catholic-run institutions says priests and nuns terrorized thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades - and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.

High Court Justice Sean Ryan on Wednesday unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse, which is based on testimony from thousands of former students and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families - a category that often included unmarried mothers - were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_IRELAND_CATHOLIC_ABUSE?SITE=MOJOP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Charles Dickens is well and alive in Ireland.

[wickerwoman]

81. The last of these schools closed seventeen years ago

and most of the allegations are from the 50s, 60s and 70s.

This is just the government finally admitting what really went on.

[panzerfaust]

95. Here is a time-line of the investigation

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/20/irish-catholic-church-child-abuse/print

Some reasons for the delay were stonewalling by The Holy Mother Church, by the Irish Ministry of Education, and by the entire Irish government itself (the government of the day did fall over the proven collusion).

People harmed by these monsters should not be cast aside simply because "most of the allegations are from the 50s, 60s and 70s" (and abuse did continue through the 80s and into the 90s: a sixty year time-span in all).

The perpetrators SHOULD be brought before the altar of secular justice - though The HMC apparently still has enough power that the report specifically did not recommend criminal charges against these criminals.

[willing dwarf]

2. Not exactly breaking news is it?

I mean , are any of us surprised? The power and secrecy of the church breeds terror and sin, not just in Ireland, but anywhere where men are granted that much power and leeway to hide.

My husband grew up Catholic in Ireland, went to a tech school, even there the kids were terrorized and treated as if they were the devil incarnate. The priests would come to class drunk and angry and be very happy to beat kids. Who knows what the priests would do to those boys? It wasn't a boarding school, so he was able to get away every day, but he and a lot of other kids dropped out at 14, preferring to get a job and deal with the world of worker than to put up with those fuckers.

It's bizaare how many Irish American Catholics hold on to the church as if it was such a mainstay of morality. I should know, being one of them.

[mopinko]

17. my brother went to a catholic (jesuit) military school

yeah, they straightened those boys out. sure, sure. it was a threat to a boy to say you would send them there, and my brother was sent there to be "turned into a man". a golf club was the weapon of choice.

there are a lot of good catholics out there, and here, and other christians. but there is something about religious power. seems more perverted than other forms. works its way into many minds, and just ruins them. and attracts those who are already broken like some sort of vortex. we will all be better off when we evolve out of the whole thing.

[Wabbajack_]

70. They beat your brother with a golf club?

[mopinko]

82. usually it only took one or two whacks.

but a kid that really caused a problem would have gotten quite a few. mostly the brother just carried it around and played with it to scare them.
they did all kinds of shit. one brother threw erasers at kid's heads when they got wrong answers. more than one just plain beat up kids that were problems.
parents expected it. that's why they sent them there.

[Baby Snooks]

21. Irish American Catholics and...

Irish American Catholics and lots of _______ American Catholics as well.

I accepted the reality of the Roman Catholic Church when it was revealed that this pope conspired as a cardinal along with the other cardinals to buy the silence of victims to avoid prosecution of not only priests but the church itself.

I wonder how much this will cost the church to cover up by silencing the victims. Not that I care. They will not do so with my money.

[xchrom]

3. recommend

[Christa]

4. Where is the Pope now?

Where is the outrage?

[get the red out]

9. Sorry, their lives didn't count

they were already outside the womb.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

19. +10! n/t

[Historic NY]

41. Exactly, Conservative Catholics don't care about the living...

just look at the bloated face Wm. Donahue from the Catholic League.

[Moonwalk]

52. Hey, no condoms were used, were they? So no need for outrage.

:eyes:

[get the red out]

5. The laundries

I have read about the laundries too, where girls and young working women who were deemed to be "no good" because they were out late or had sex with someone were placed against their will with no trial. These places were run by the Church and were slave camps from which some women never escaped for their entire lives, some of the remaining slave women are now taken care of by the church because of their treatment, they can't live outside after all the years of misery and confinement. So a young woman could be a poor working class girl and be out late and be given life in prison for it, but in conditions that would make US prisons look good.

THE CHURCH. Enough said. After reading about the "laundries" I ended up with a powerful aversion to anything Irish. That might be bad, but I simply don't care for anything "Irish" now, can't think of Ireland without thinking about what I read about the laundries.

[Patiod]

27. And they shipped their children to the US to be adopted

My friend is the son of one of the Magdelen Laundries.

Truly despicable.

[dflprincess]

78. I used to date a guy who grew up in Ireland

he always said he couldn't make up his mind what was worse for Ireland - St. Patrick's arrival or the opening of Maynooth Seminary. The Catholic Church tried harder than England to destroy Irish culture, knowing that if the culture was destroyed the people would cling harder to the church.

[evlbstrd]

6. See this film.

The Magdalene Sisters
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318411/

[Blue_Tires]

10. i was about to bring that up

VERY tough to watch...brought a tear to my eye, and beleive me; I've NEVER even as a kid cried during a movie...

[Rambis]

12. Christy Moore: Joni Mitchell's Magdalene Laundries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inteWfmzui0

[knowbody0]

20. I got the famous haircut for something I did not even

understand. I was 12.

[Baby Snooks]

26. The Church dismissed the film as I recall...

If I recall correctly the Church dismissed the film as baseless. Apparently it wasn't baseless at all. Except in the minds of Catholics who live in blissful delusion in their devotion to the Church.

[Warpy]

29. If anything, the film was baseless because it understated

the hideous treatment these women endured at the hands of the nuns.

I knew a survivor of the system, signed out when a younger brother was old enough to do so. She was wonderful, a tough old bird, but she never spoke of the church without bitterness.

I never knew there was a male equivalent for truant boys, but I'm not surprised. I'm also not a bit surprised at their treatment.

Sad, isn't it?

[aquart]

55. What I never understood is people saying to be Irish was to be Catholic.

Ireland existed with a culture and traditions long before those goddamn monks showed up.

[Thothmes]

90. So did "Catholic" France or "Catholic Italy"

[pleah]

28. That is exactly what I thought of when I read this article. n/t

[snake in the grass]

34. Check out...

..."Sex in a Cold Climate", a very good if not disturbing documentary.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0380703/

[bikebloke]

58. The trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hga3kqwuBSc

[Ilsa]

93. I saw alot of it on tv, and finally had to change the channel because it was

so disturbing to see young women treated this badly.

The rampant abuses and types of abuses in churches of all kinds makes me want to teach my kdis to stay away from them all. That's unrealistic, I know, because they are around alot of kids who go to church. But churches should be emotionally and physically safe places, and their employees can be vicious.

[Raster]

7. Kick for truth and justice.

Often this atheist wishes there was a wrathful, vengeful god that would punish those that do evil in his name.

[MineralMan]

18. But there isn't, you see, and there's the rub.

Knowing there's really no deity at all gives some religious types license to do as they please.

Parents (and the government)need to monitor the religious schools closely. Such stuff is rife in them, whatever the religion.

[Raster]

24. Agreed. I'd prefer they close said institutions. They are a blight on humanity.

[Soylent Brice]

8. why is it that

sexual abuse is so prevalent in religion?

[nichomachus]

13. Because

religion has a special attraction for two very different types -- the authoritarians and the weak and vulnerable. That is a match made in hell.

[fascisthunter]

15. ding!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

23. ding #2.

very good point; the best observations are the obvious ones that no one else sees. You got it right here.

It's people living in a world of animality. Easy to identify the "animals" who thrive on authority, preying on those weaker, seeking control and power;

but the necessary corollary is the presence of the weaker animals, the ones who look to BE controlled, who give up their power (children who by n ature are weaker, and adults who prefer to give up thinking and responsibilty to powerful figures who promise to protect them). I tend to miss that side of the equation, but the way you said it here makes it crystal clear.

[Laelth]

30. Very insightful. Thanks. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Soylent Brice]

45. best explanation EVER.

[willing dwarf]

16. Because the privacy of the priestly role lets perverts hide out

Plus the official power and honor given to priests in the days before Vatican II (but also given to them culturally by some to this day) made them able to sway people.

In Ireland after the famine, the whole country became very puritanical, they became a "priest-ridden" nation. If the local parish priest denounced you from the pulpit, the shame was complete. So who would dare to speak up about misdeeds of these men? It was whispered, but never spoken.

The Irish were a colonized people, and at one time the church was the only hope people felt they had. But of course, the priests were complicit with the British in oppressing the people. Above all, the effects of colonization helped to keep the power of the priesthood strong.

From my experience, I'd say most of Irish culture is a sort of mobias strip. The good and bad run side by side, and it's almost impossible to say when you're looking at one or the other.

[juno jones]

61. Thanks for bringing up colonization.

As an 'irish-american' (among other things) I always thought that the Irish celebrating St Patrick's Day was akin to Native Americans celebrating Columbus Day:

"Hey! Thanks for obliterating our native culture and bringing us the joys of empire!

IMHO, Bit of collective Stockholm Syndrome there.

[AlphaCentauri]

25. It feels like our government is a religion

we get abused in many aspects and we keep quite

[willing dwarf]

39. My Irish husband and I have often agreed

that people in the US have the dame feeling of obsessive, "you can't say anything bad about our government or our country" that people in Ireland have had about the church.

It's sort of the air you swim in, you can't see it, you can't touch it because it's so pervasive.

"American freedom and justice for all" is the mantra that keeps us all enthralled. ( though the Bush era really put a tarnish on the rose.)

[AlphaCentauri]

63. Dogmatic democracy we can say

where no president could be prosecuted because it makes us look bad abroad. We can't have strong third parties because money flows only in two way or two parties.
What is more impressive is the infallibility of the corporate world.... not much difference from a dogmatic religion..

[Papa Boule]

66. Ann Miller's books address it

It's a result of what she calls a "poisonous pedagogy"--a culture of abuse that brings up children to be frightened and even superstitious submissive adults who don't dare question authorities, or dare to think a justified unkind thought, or have a totally justified feeling (like anger) toward them.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

83. Alice Miller -- The Drama of the Gifted Child and others

www.alice-miller.com

John Bradshaw, Ph.D. has written numerous books expanding on her work.

From www.alice-miller.com:
Child Mistreatment, Child Abuse
What is it?

Humiliations, spankings and beatings, slaps in the face, betrayal, sexual exploitation, derision, neglect, etc. are all forms of mistreatment, because they injure the integrity and dignity of a child, even if their consequences are not visible right away. However, as adults, most abused children will suffer, and let others suffer, from these injuries. This dynamic of violence can deform some victims into hangmen who take revenge even on whole nations and become willing executors to dictators as unutterably appalling as Hitler and other cruel leaders. Beaten children very early on assimilate the violence they endured, which they may glorify and apply later as parents, in believing that they deserved the punishment and were beaten out of love. They don't know that the only reason for the punishments they have ( or in retrospect, had) to endure is the fact that their parents themselves endured and learned violence without being able to question it. Later, the adults, once abused children, beat their own children and often feel grateful to their parents who mistreated them when they were small and defenseless.

[Papa Boule]

89. Alice Miller, of course. Thanks.

I've watched too many old movies I guess. ;)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

11. Breaking news. Blackwater to take over Irish Reform schools

[Raster]

14. Who would Eric Prince torture? Oops, rhetorical question.

I'm surprised Darth cheney* hasn't converted and joined the priesthood. Talk about a match made in hell.

[nichomachus]

33. In a fair fight -- I'd put $100 on the nuns

They could teach Blackwater a thing or two about terror tactics.

[hedgehog]

22. The English tried to drive the Irish from the Church for 500 years and failed.

The Irish bishops took charge and accomplished the task in 50 years.

[LuckyLib]

31. The influence of Irish catholicism on American catholic schools cannot be overstated.

From coast to coast the imported Irish priests and nuns wreaked their havoc on the minds and bodies of children. We were terrorized -- and our parents thought they were doing the best they could by us. I maintain that what has been published about psychological and physical abuse of children in Catholic schools in the 20th century is only the tip of the iceberg. As the saying goes, "we've all got scars."

[hedgehog]

43. The irony here is that the Irish I know are absolutely in love

with children.

[Cronus Protagonist]

46. Priests?

...or Cardinals?

[hedgehog]

50. I just knew i was setting myself up for a smart remark!

Seriously though, everyone in my family is nuts for any baby or small child.

[Moonwalk]

53. But it was not the baby or small child that was abused. These were older kids...

Especially those entering their teens. I'm not surprised given the way the Catholic Church venerates infants, but seems to want to beat the devil out of any child old enough to talk back and question.

[AlphaCentauri]

32. Can we get the Christian Brothers order to run our prison system

I think they would do a good job

[get the red out]

51. Cruel and unusual punishment

Cruel and unusual punishment is illegal when used on the convicted criminals of our country. So they would run into trouble.

[AlphaCentauri]

64. Cruel and unusual punishment is not illegal for free citizens

to keep people without health care is a cruel punishment

[Thothmes]

91. You have never read our Constitution, have you?

[Moonwalk]

54. I think they're already running Gitmo

[Arugula Latte]

35. The irony. The girls were "supervised" by "The Sisters of Mercy."

Horrible, horrible. So many lives ruined.

:grr:

[closeupready]

36. This just about does it for me.

I'm basically through with the Catholic Church.

[truebrit71]

37. ..but they go batshit crazy when a pro-choice Prez speaks at a catholic university..

..:crazy:

The stinking hypocrisy within that "church" reeks from top to bottom..

[Arugula Latte]

38. Looks like you're not alone.

The Catholic Church is losing its vicious grip on Ireland. Thankfully.

"The story of the Magdalene laundries is but the latest blow to the prestige and power of the Catholic Church in Ireland, which no longer dominates the political agenda."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/08/sunday/main567365.shtml

Now, if we could just further reduce the political and social influence of the fundamentalist freaks in this country ...

[newspeak]

88. if you read about the Irish Catholics

the Roman Catholic church had trouble controlling the early church. I believe the Irish were the last to cave into the RC when it came to priests marrying. That edict, I believe was in 500 AD. Many Celtic women went to battle with their families, think Bodiccea. The RC had to initiate two edicts to keep women in their place. The Vatican had a hard time controlling the Irish Catholic church (which was more liberal) until the GREAT FAMINE!!!! I'm capping because it is a turning point where the Roman Catholic church fully gains control over Irish Catholicism. In my mind, I wouldn't even doubt that the Vatican supported the Protestants against the Irish, that's how much of a chasm there was. The Irish, also refused to cave in to the Vatican when it came time for the Inquisition, unlike some of the Scots. There was only one case in Ireland and they had to send an emissary from the Vatican--who I believe afterwards the Irish had second thoughts and ran him out.

[Thothmes]

92. Believe you time line is incorrect. The Celtic queen

Bodiccea fought against the Romans between 61 & 63 AD.

[newspeak]

94. yes, I know Bodiccea fought against the Romans

I wasn't stating the timeline, but the warrior status. There were Celtic (Irish) women who were strong and fought alongside their families in disputes. I was talking about the Vatican having to issue two edicts to keep them in their place. And, the woman, the vatican sent an emissary to catapult the Inquisition in Ireland, was a three time widow with a lot of influence and property.

[Iowa]

60. I'm from an Irish-Catholic background...

When I retired years ago, one of the first things I wanted to do was delve into my faith. After years in Catholic school/college, I had never really taken a close look at Catholicism as a mature adult. Who really has time to do that when working and raising kids? Most of us just coast on what we were taught as kids without giving it a hell of a lot of thought. I was looking to really get immersed in it, in a positive way. I wasn't looking to leave - quite the opposite.

Well, the more I examined Catholicism after retiring, the more it (and all religion) seemed absolutely ridiculous. I found myself wondering how I could have EVER bought into it. But childhood indoctrination, when followed by 30 or 40 years of surviving and not giving one's religion much thought, pretty much assures that most of us will just coast and not disrupt the status-quo. Furthermore, the Church has its tentacles dug into the most important areas of our lives... things like family, holidays, weddings, funerals... There are many consequences if one strays from the fold.

I told my youngest brother the other day that if he wanted to remain Catholic, he should avoid examining it too closely. As soon as one opens one's mind to the possibility that it could all be bullshit, it falls like a house of cards.

[closeupready]

62. Yep.

Between electing a former Hitler Youth member as leader, the pedophilia scandals, the manner in which the church protected its priests from the law - you know that saying, 'not with a bang but a whimper'? That's the Catholic Church and the fault for that lies, in large part, with the Vatican.

[Arugula Latte]

68. I'm always amazed at how many people DO buy into religion.

It's kind of like, if you spent five minutes thinking about it, you'd realize how ridiculous it all is. However, I'm sure childhood indoctrination is a huge, powerful force to overcome. I never had that, so it's hard for me to grasp that mindset.

[Iowa]

79. Yep, it's the indoctrination...

It begins very early - from the moment you can reason. And in most cases, it comes from parents who really do care about you - parents who steer you right in every other respect. And then the Catholic schools reinforce it. And all your life you're surrounded by very smart people who have dedicated their lives to it - priest professors, priest scientists, nun scientists (and some with multiple PhDs from top universities), all your relatives, all your ancestors...

But if you take the time to really examine it, it all falls apart very quickly, and you find yourself wondering how the hell you ever bought into it. It just seems so obviously ridiculous. And the Catholic hierarchy, by and large, are flaming assholes, and have been throughout much of history. So how can so many people continue to be conned by such a blatantly shitty organization? It's a good question. But I suspect we're at a tipping point and will see many more leaving in the future.

[Arugula Latte]

86. That makes sense.

My mother (a widow) is dating a man (widower) who is very Catholic and has always been around Catholic/religious people. His wife was Catholic; his friends are Catholic or other forms of Christian. My mother was brought up Catholic but rejected it in college. She also has many friends who are not religious. The boyfriend is stunned -- he'd basically never realized some people did NOT believe. He asks her: "Where do you find all these people?"

The good news is that non-believers are the one consistently growing demographic. The younger generation is much less religious and less likely to go to church -- a good sign for our future. Also, Ireland seems to be throwing off the yoke of the Catholic Church, finally.

I've known plenty of cool/smart/compassionate Catholics, but you're right -- the Church hierarchy is rotten to the core.

[Arugula Latte]

40. Photos of the laundries:

[old mark]

42. I just read this in the NYT - I went to Catholic schools K-12, in the US,

and the more I see about this stuff, the more I want the Catholic Church to die.

As an organization, is spreads fear, hatred, and abuse. It values greed and thoughtless adherance to its rules. It fosters hypocracy and guilt.

I was born and raised catholic - and I want to tell you, I hate the church and want to see it brought down.

mark

[Hulk]

44. Ditto here.....

I live in Mexico now, and watching how the poor and disadvantaged in ALL of Latin America support the Catholic Church makes my stomach turn.

I don't care about the Vatican any longer. After Pope John Paul, I could care less about who is a pope, or who is the leader of the Catholic faith.

My faith is in my heart. I don't attach myself to the 2000+ years of corruption and savagery of those who followed Jesus. I am sorry to say it...but my faith leaps over them. They are insignificant any longer. The whole history...and I do mean the WHOLE HISTORY of the Catholic Church is one of shame and corruption. These last revelations of child abuse and sexual scandal are just the latest in a long, long line of terror and sin.

I have no respect for the Catholic Church any longer. I have my faith. Jesus would be broken hearted at what man has done to His Church.

[closeupready]

49. Born and raised Catholic, as well, and as I said above, I'm with you.

n/t

[MichiganVote]

65. Yup. Couldn't agree more. The 'One True Church' my ass.

[SemperEadem]

47. I attended a catholic high school run by the sisters of mercy

what an ironic term. They were abusive bitches. Period.

[Rambis]

48. Ceremony and tradition are comforting

but the problems of the church are to big to ignore. I do think some flock to the church to work through some of the feelings they have, like sexual identity. Unfortunately, at some point most realize they have been running from themselves and their faith, the ceremony and the church are not shelter enough from their own thoughts. Then they begin to act on the feelings and flaws that have always been there but they have an umbrella of secrecy under which these things are allowed to take place.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

56. Deform Schools

Seems like there should be a special institution for those who participated and allowed this to continue.

[Odin2005]

57. There are no words...

:cry:

[terp2345]

67. three words

Let us prey...

[Arugula Latte]

69. Welcome to DU, terp!

:hi: :toast:

[juno jones]

59. IIRC there was an article in an issue of Granta years ago

dealing with this subject. Girls (ie unwed mothers) would go in and often be held as virtual slaves for decades. Their babies taken away, given no education, these girls would do laundry and other laborous jobs for the nuns and preists who would beat and molest them.

What you do to the least of these, you do also to me...indeed, WWJD?

[CHIMO]

71. Abuse ‘endemic' in Irish Roman Catholic schools: Report

Source: Associated Press

DUBLIN — A fiercely debated, long-delayed investigation into Ireland's Roman Catholic-run institutions says priests and nuns terrorized thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades — and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.

Nine years in the making, Wednesday's 2,600-page report sides almost completely with the horrific reports of abuse from former students sent to more than 250 church-run, mostly residential institutions.

But victims' leaders said it didn't go far enough — particularly because none of their abusers were identified by name.

The report concluded that church officials always shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest to protect their own reputations and, according to documents uncovered in the Vatican, knew that many pedophiles were serial attackers.



Read more: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090520.wabuse0520/BNStory/International/home

---

[santamargarita]

72. Anyone read or see Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt?

:think:

[Warpy]

74. Yes, and I understood it from the perspective

of my own Irish Catholic childhood here in the US.

[DeSwiss]

75. No, I haven't seen that movie nor read the book.....

...but all this does remind me of movie, "The Magdalene Sisters."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hga3kqwuBSc

- I'm telling ya, the Catholic Church needs to be shut down. Its just a widespread criminal organization with diplomatic immunity.

[KillCapitalism]

73. Abuse in the catholic church?

No way! :sarcasm:

[mackerel]

76. Big surprise (ignore acerbic grin)

Oliver O'Grady came out of that system.

[bc3000]

84. It's nothing we wouldn't do to our own troops

just sayin

[harry_pothead]

77. Religion can't go away soon enough.

[McCamy Taylor]

80. Amazed it took the Irish government so long to admit what everyone knew for years.

I will bet it is the fear of lawsuits that has driven this attempt at reconciliation. Is there some way that victims of abuse can sue in courts in other countries? Like the UK or the US? It would probably be easier to get justice elsewhere.

I hope this leads to the death of Catholic rule in Ireland. That religion has been nothing but trouble for the Irish people. They did not support independence, and yet now they brand themselves as nationalists in order to get away with their abuses.

[bottomtheweaver]

85. Any waterboarding? Dental torture? Forced exposure? Stress positions?

No, no, no, and no, and this school stuff was decades ago. James Joyce wrote a story about it in 1914 for pete's sake. The torture and abuse at Guantanemo and Bagram is ongoing, publicly known, and orders of magnitude more criminal.

[Arugula Latte]

87. Some of these institutions lasted into the 90s.

Girls were kept as slaves for years and years and mentally and physically abused. Thousands of people are still traumatized by their experience.

The torture at Guantanemo, etc., of course is horrific and should be brought to light, but that doesn't minimize the horror and criminality of what went on in these places for DECADES.