N.Ireland soccer mob beats Catholic man to death

[Scurrilous]

Source: Associated Press

<snip>

"Militant Protestant supporters of a Scottish soccer team beat to death a Roman Catholic man in the latest sign of how sports rivalries inspire sectarian bloodshed in Northern Ireland, police and politicians said Monday.

Witnesses said more than 20 Protestant supporters of Glasgow Rangers, many of them wearing the team's blue-and-white jerseys and scarves, drove into a Catholic district of the town of Coleraine after Rangers clinched the Scottish Premier League championship Sunday.

Billy Leonard, a former policeman and politician from the Irish nationalist party Sinn Fein, said several carloads of anti-Catholic extremists came armed with clubs "and literally attacked the first person they came across."

Kevin McDaid, 49, was fatally bludgeoned while his wife, Evelyn, and a 46-year-old Catholic neighbor, Damien Fleming, were both injured. Fleming was reported in critical condition."

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/1064860.html

[47of74]

1. Nice.....

What a wonderful world we all live in.

[Hoopla Phil]

2. Well, at least she didn't have a gun to do it with

:sarcasm:

[dmallind]

3. But I'm reliably informed the Irish mess wasn't/isn't about religion

by all apologists for whichever version of Xianity was doing the latest slaughter. Strangely I am pretty sure it wasn't about standings in a soccer league either, but yet again that does not stop people killing each other over differences that are nothing but, and entirely, religious.

I spent some time in Glasgow. Scotland has not had the widespread sectarian violence that Ireland has, but yet there are still "Protestant" pubs (unmarked or otherwise identified - you just have to know which they are)protected by police cordons when Celtic fans are walking back from a game and similarly anonymous to outsiders "Catholic" pubs which get the same treatment after Rangers games. Notice the pubs are not Celtic pubs or Rangers pubs per se - just in areas where most people are of one sect or the other.

But it's not about religion either. Somehow.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. yet both sides believe in the same fairy tales.

go figure.

[dmallind]

7. No no no!

It's COMPLETELY different! If you only think the bread and wine SYMBOLIZES the body and the blood it's like saying Jesus isn't really there at all, and if you think they ARE the body and the blood you're an idol-worshipping cannibal who can't possibly go to heaven.

[roguevalley]

56. this is about assholes killing someone just because. god didn't have a part in

this and they would have done it for any reason whatsoever because they are homicidal assholes. this is their fault, their crime, their problem. fuckers.

[donco6]

63. So, they aren't true Christians because Christians wouldn't do that?

Who was it talking about the "not a true Scotsman" fallacy?

[roguevalley]

149. true christians don't do that. faux ones do.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

94. This is no different than beating a man to death because he's gay or black

His religion had a lot to do with it.

[bettyellen]

129. you'd think fellow opressed wouldn't be so hoodwinked by the MSM

I'm kind of shocked he;s making fun of the issue with this head of a pin bullshit.
he has no clue it;s about human rights.

[Hugabear]

201. Bullshit. This has everything to do with religion.

I'm tired of reading apologists saying "religion has nothing to do with the violence, they would have killed each other over something else".

Bull-fucking-shit.

This has everything to do with different groups of people thinking their religion is superior to someone else's.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

202. It has nothing to do with Catholics and Prots thinking their religion is superior

It has to do with class and subjugation.

[donco6]

61. And only 10,000 angels can dance on the head of a pin!

Gawd, when you boil it all down, the crap that people kill over is so insane. It makes gay-bashing sound logical.

[bettyellen]

128. how fun it is for you to belittle people by ignoring the real struggles and truth of their history

:barf:

[bettyellen]

156. *crickets*

for shame.

[donco6]

173. ?? Not me.

You must be confusing me with someone else. I would be the last person to belittle anyone's struggles.

[bettyellen]

179. but that's exactly whay you have done.

[donco6]

182. It honestly would help if you said how.

I absolutely would never want to do that. But I can't see it. Your words would not be wasted on me, but I need a little substance here.

[riderinthestorm]

8. Ah but there's where your wrong. They perceive the "differences" as HUGH!!11!!

I am so sick of religion getting some kind of pass as an antagonizer by apologists on DU.

The Protestant/Catholic divide in Ireland and elsewhere in the UK is a direct product of religion and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to "figure" that.

[bettyellen]

13. um, no but thanks for the ver simplistic bullshit.

[galloglas]

21. Bullshit !!

"The Protestant/Catholic divide in Ireland and elsewhere in the UK is a direct product of religion"

The Protestant/Catholic divide in Eire and elsewhere in the UK is a direct result of the policies of the English monarchy and nobility. The Monarchy, and their plume and silken bedecked toadies in the Parliament, have systematically been about the dispossession of the Irish and their fellow Gaels and Celts for centuries.

The immediate "Troubles" in N.I. are the direct result of the displacement of the native Irish during the late 1500s and early 1600s, promoted by Queen Elizabeth I and James I of England (James VI of Scotland). It's legal framework is the "Plantation Act" of the British Parliament which sent huge numbers of (primarily) impoverished lowland Scots to occupy the fertile hills of N.I. and sharecrop the same for the benefit of the English and Scottish overlords.

Postscript:

After those impoverished Lowland Scots wore out and overpopulated the wilds of N.I. during the 1600s and early 1700s, Her Majesty's government managed to make petty criminals of most of the excess population, by various means, and shipped them all to the Colonies... Australia and the United States, primarily....

The entire problem represented by this OP is the result of centuries of the war-mongering, Imperialist policies of the British (Brutish??) Crown. Damn them forever!

[dmallind]

29. And again - how are victims chosen

Any IRA or Orangemen bombs and attacks planned based on opinions of 16th Century British colonial policies or just on the basis of living in a Catholic or Protestant neighborhood?

The problem apologists have is they tend to rush breathless in to give historical context as if we don't all know exactly what it is already, and as if every sectarian thug were steeped in historical minutiae and passionately involved in trying to right imperialist wrongs and take revenge for Drogheda and Wexford. Do you think any of these hooligans could tell you the history of Ulster sharecropping? Did they try to find a victim who had taken part in the nail-bombings in 1970's London? Or just look for a Catholic?

What you're missing is British colonialism may very well have been a major cause of some of the violence (forgetting of course the Irish raids on England centuries before that) but that quite simply is immaterial to why idiots beat each other up in the name of religious allegiance right now. You cannot possibly pretend these soccer louts were doing thing one to strike a blow for loyalist allegiance to Britain. They were targeting Catholics qua Catholics and nothing else mattered to them.

[donco6]

59. Absolutely correct.

And if it sounds simplistic, it's only because it cuts through all the apologist nonsense.

[bettyellen]

121. wow, you are unable to connect the two, or understand that the "why" determines the

"who" and not the other way around. I spent five weeks uo north, and in many families, people do have long memeories. In many families they don;t need long memories at all to be angry. You have no idea.

[dmallind]

158. I disagree so I have no idea. Fine debate skills there!

I spent a damn sight more than five weeks there for a start since I worked just outside Belfast for a couple of years, as well as growing up in England at the height of the bombing campaign. You avoid the whole question. Do any families with long memories and anger pick their allegiance and victims based on how people view history? Do any of these attacks come with surveys first? This one surely didn't. That Catholic man could have had a portrait of the Queen tattooed on his chest and cry with joy every time Land of Hope and Glory was played but it wouldn't have mattered shit to them would it? Same way it has never mattered to the provisionals which people got blown up as long as they lived in Protestant neighborhoods.

[bettyellen]

166. you said British colonialism is not a problem today, and that's fucking ignorant

but it is exactly what someone who wants and needs to believe it would say.
the BBC backs you up, but then - Bernadette McAlsiky was censored by them, given subtitles, so you never heard otherwise.
i totally get where you're coming from.

[dmallind]

196. I said this attack was to do with religion. his wife agrees.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6364252.ece

[bettyellen]

199. you said colonialism isn;t a problem today- and that shows your total ignorance.

i really don;t give a fuck what the wife is saying, sorry.
to ID someone as catholic is an tribal or ethnic not at all religous distinction.
or did she say her husband ussually foregos soccer games for church? i don;t think so.
you minimise the struggle w/ this religous crap because you have an agenda to do so.
you are full of it.

[LostinVA]

60. Exactly -- a United Ireland

[vadawg]

206. hell no, at least not until the north agrees, worse thing would be to force the north to join the

south, you would have an orange uprising that would spill over into the west of scotland and other parts of england.

[JerseygirlCT]

77. I'm always surprised at the number of people

eager to comment on "the troubles" with absolutely no understanding of the history involved.

[bettyellen]

122. they are parroting the MSM- who belittle the Irish and pretend it;s about religion.

i'm embarrassed at people here. They think it's easy street for Catholics in NI, they've no clue at all.

[riderinthestorm]

78. Another Irish citizen here and I say it has devolved entirely into a religious identity issue

The history of the land grab matters but now it's simplified to a question of the religion of both sides. To dismiss that element as bullshit means you aren't 1. paying attention or 2. not aware of the political realities of the beatings/troubles.

[JerseygirlCT]

79. But it's not about religious differences

These people aren't getting violent over theological issues. It's about identity issues, and in this case, religion is a key part of identity.

It's not as if the man who was beaten to death could convert and avoid a murder... "Catholic" means a great deal more than which side of the reformation you fall on.

Religion is a symptom, not a cause.

[riderinthestorm]

86. Wow. Talk about splitting hairs.

"Identity is a key part". "Catholic means a great deal". But then you make some great leap to "religion is a symptom not a cause".

Sorry but thats simply not true for many of the participants. That's like trying to separate abortion from the evangelicals and saying, "they are republicans because abortion is simply a symptom, not a cause." For some, many, who knows how many - it's now become too big to let slide. Ever.

[bettyellen]

120. i spent five weeks in the north helping interview people in the middle of this on both sides

everyone from families of UDF and IRA members who were murdered to many many peace activists, people involved in the struggle recently all the way to Bernadette Devlin McAlisky... and you know what -religion came up not once. Not a single time. It doesn't matter - it's completely about the politics. Orange and Green are purely political persuasions, lots of catholics and Protestants identify as neither.

You think it's splitting hairs but you are using the talking points pushed forth by the British media to belittle the struggle of Catholics in the North. You reduce the history of genocide and the long struggle for human rights and economic jusstice as some papal loving silliness. It's sad seeing so much of DU parrot this crap.

[WildEyedLiberal]

142. Thank you for your posts on this thread

[bettyellen]

144. I am mortified by the nonsense spewed here, I had to. no thank you required. :-)

[Hugabear]

203. I'd say a Jersey girl living in Connecticut would know more about this than an Irish citizen

:sarcasm:

[galloglas]

138. Jaysus! "The history of the land grab matters" ??

"The history of the land grab matters"

That part is right enough.

"but now it's simplified to a question of the religion of both sides."

is the most brazen straying from logic I've yet heard! How many of these rock-headed hooligans, on either side of the issue, ever see the inside of a church building except for an occasional wedding or christening? There is no more "religion" involved in this than there are in the ghetto gangs of the US. The only difference is that in N.I. the colors are "green and orange" whereas in the 'hoods of the US they are the "red and black" and Bloods and Crypts.

Here in the States, where we took in the petty criminals and political malcontents who were "transported" from your British courts, we took most of those ancient settlers and packed them cheek-to-jowl with the kidnapped blacks from Africa, forcing them both into involuntary indentured servitude (slavery for the blacks) without even a broken promise (as we gave the blacks)of "forty acres and a mule".

And now the US has "race riots" and "race wars" in the United States, just as you have "sectarian violence" in N.I. So tell me, does this evolve from some natural antipathy between those captured African blacks and the dirty, ragged peasants who were banned from Eire, Scotland, Wales and Britain? Some fierce natural antagonism between these groups who had so many centuries of non-contact with each other?

Face it. The artificial divisions we see here in the States are no different than those you are trying to attribute to "religious differences" in Eire. The differences you see, and bemoan, are only tangentially connected to religion, and that done solely through the economics of it.

As Sean O'Casey said:

There's no reason to bring religion into it. I think we ought to have as great a regard for religion as we can, so as to keep it out of as many things as possible.

[bettyellen]

160. it;s simplified by those who find it convenient to do so- and they own the media + put out this BS

but try telling that to the know it alls here- they all met an Irish person who agreed with the MSM crap, LOL!

[redwitch]

57. Class warfare.

Money/power class keeps the working class at each others throats so they don't put 2 and 2 together and unite against the rich. It works very well.

[happyslug]

130. The problem with Religion in Ireland, and Race in the US, is both are a Substitute for Class.

One of my favorite stories of Northern Ireland was how you can tell a Protestant from a Catholic, but simply asking him (or her) which foot they use to dig with. The Protestant all say the Right Foot, the Catholic the Left foot. When I first read this difference the Writer could NOT determine why it was true, but found out it was true. Why the difference? First is HOW you learn to dig is based on WHAT type of Spade you are using. I have used BOTH Short handle and long handled Spades, and you tend to use your Left foot on Long Handled Spades and your Right Foot on Short Handled Spades.

Thus the difference is NOT any preference EXCEPT how one learn to dig with a Spade. If you are a peasant farmer (Which most Catholics were, or any more recently decedent from then Protestants in Ireland), you use a long handed Spade, you dig with your left foot for you use your RIGHT hand to push back on the handle to turn the dirt over. If you are a ditch digger, you dig with your Right foot for you can put your dominate right hand near the metal part of the Spade to help you lift it up and over your head (Left handed people would be opposite of this but for this example I am assuming Everyone is a Right Handed only person). Most urban people do NOT farm, so do NOT use long handled Spades. On the other hand most Rural People do farm and do use long handled spades.

In the Military and in urban areas digging is primary a job to dig a ditch, given that prior to 1900 most Urban Areas of Northern Ireland were Protestant, Protestant tended to learn to dig with short handled spades.

Now Religion also reflects one's roots in Ireland. Most Rural Protestants left Ireland in the 1700s for America, leaving mostly the Urban Protestants in Dublin and Northern Ireland. Thus by 1800, Almost all the Rural Peasants were Catholic, while Northern Ireland was Presbyterian but whose strength were in the Urban Areas (Where Britain would recruit Irish Regiments out of, so many urban Protestant Irish first learn to dig while in the Army, digging Ditches). These same Irish units were used to suppress the Rest of Ireland whenever the Rural Catholic Irish started to rebel. This Rural-Urban division was encouraged by Britain for Britain wanted to use the least number of ENGLISH Troops in Ireland.

Come the Irish Rebellion of 1921, the Rural Irish Peasants supported the Revolt, Dublin was so separated from the rest of Protestant Ireland that keeping it British was quickly found to be impossible (And that it was the seat of the Church of Ireland NOT the Presbyterian Church that Dominate Northern Ireland was an addition factor, along with the fact Dublin had followed English practice and had been permitting a lot of Irish Catholic ex-Peasants into Dublin after 1860).

I should note that the Catholics of the late 1800 and early 1900 did try to accommodate the Protestants of Northern Ireland, best seen in the Irish flag. The Green represent Catholic Ireland, the white ALL of Ireland, and the Orange, the Presbyterians of Northern Ireland. Attempts at accommodations was made, but rejected by the Protestant for it included giving up their complete control of Northern Ireland.

Now one of the ways the Presbyterians kept control of Northern Ireland was to give Land owners more votes then none-land owners (I believe the ratio was 3-1, but I can NOT confirm that). Given that the Catholics tended to be immigrants from Ireland looking for work, most of them RENTED and as such only had one vote, while their Presbyterian Landlords had three votes, just because they own "Land". In many ways this shows the Class base nature of the Troubles, the poor working class tended to be Catholic, the lower end (What Marx called Petite Bourgeois) of the Upper Middle Class tended to be Presbyterians, Thus while the groups identified themselves by Religion, their outlook (and to a degree their choice of Religion) was Class based. I always remember the old Joke about the Jewish Business owner in Northern Ireland, when ask if he was Catholic of Protestant stated he was Jewish, then was asked if he was a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew. The Religion of each class was how the classes divided themselves in that Class war. No one advocated Catholicism or Protestantism, but Jobs and economic Control. Thus my Comment, the Troubles was more Class oriented then Religious orientated.

More on Northern Ireland the the Start of the"Troubles":
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/crights/crights.htm
http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/the-civil-rights-struggle-and-its-legacy/
http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/conflict-northern-ireland-civil-rights-association
http://www.culturenorthernireland.org/article.aspx?art_id=492
http://books.google.com/books?id=masvnroZMXwC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=Northern+Ireland+Civil+Rights+Association&source=bl&ots=TnGjcb6wIL&sig=IoOMFSTUu2GBdL5rl-5s_hk-K0o&hl=en&ei=bQscSvfSJ5XcMPzqiZMP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA15,M1

[galloglas]

139. Indeed. There you have it!

:thumbsup:

[sabrina 1]

188. No, it isn't about religion.

It's about occupation and colonialism and human rights and the impoverishment of oppressed people over centuries of occupation by a foreign nation. Religion probably played no bigger a role than the native language and other cultural traditions of the native people of Ireland in this centuries old conflict.

[bettyellen]

12. no it's about property and human rights, but go ahead and spread ignorance cuz that helps

[McCamy Taylor]

10. Religion is the red herring. It is about centuries of British colonialism in Ireland.

The Protestants are perceived as the British overlords' lackeys in Ireland. England took everything from the native Irish and gave it to their minions, many of whom came over from England originally.

It is a lot like the Europeans versus the Native Americans, except in this case the Irish survived the genocides which England engineered through insane food export policies etc and became the bosses again. The colonial's lackeys do not like giving up their privileged status. Plus, they know that they are targets for the resentment of people whose ancestors were treated worse than dogs.

Colonialism is an atrocity and Ireland is one of the worst examples of what greed will lead people to do to their fellow human beings. The British are in denial, too, because no one wants to admit to that their ancestors were murderous thieving bastards.

[dmallind]

11. Yeah yeah sure. But nobody planting a bomb in a Falls Road pub

ever - ever - has stopped to canvass the locals about their views on British colonialism have they?

It's logically possible to be a Catholic loyalist or a Protestant passionately committed to erasing all traces of British hegemony in a united Eire. I can pretty much guarantee such people exist. But it's the religious attribute that might get them killed, and has gotten many many of them killed in the past, by those who may agree with them politically.

Whatever rationalization - even whatever historically accurate ones - can be presented to explain why Catholics kill Protestants and vice versa now, the plain fact is that Catholics kill Protestants because they ARE Protestants, and vice versa of course. As such, it is specious in the extreme to say this is not about religion.

[bettyellen]

17. it is about the haves vs haves nots and property theft and refusal of basic human rights

and people like you making it about voo doo religion is bullshit. total bullshit.

[dmallind]

26. Did these people or any sectarian loons ask their victim about his wealth or rights?

If no, then denial ain't just that famous river is it? Face it, in this and many many more attacks the victim is chosen ONLY on the basis of assumed religious preference as being from a Catholic neighborhood. Nobody cares, asks or even tries to find out what the political or economic or social status of the victims are - they just target different believers. If you want to parse and excuse such sectarian violence you might as well say it's all about testosterone, and it still wouldn't change the unavoidable fact that people kill and maim entirely on the basis of having a different opinion of the same imaginary friend. Yes it is all about voodoo religion and bullshit, but that's the religion that exists.

[bettyellen]

35. wow, you if you still think this has anything to do about religous preference i can't help you.

[donco6]

84. please read some of the other posts.

You may be enlightened.

[bettyellen]

123. i spent five weeks in Belfast interviewing people embroiled in the struggle, but thanks

for the offer to enlighten me w/ a lot of MSM talking points regurgiated by a bunch of DUERs. LOL.
I guess the MSM did it's job alright.

[donco6]

171. I found them interesting. But I guess that's just me. n/t

[bettyellen]

178. LOL, the offical story has been the the same for so many years.. but if you don;t know better

i guess it might be interesting.

[dmallind]

161. Obviously not

since the facts speak for themselves. A Catholic was attacked. Not a single shred of indication they tried to find anyone who had a specific political or social opinion, only a specific religious affiliation. Regardless of who did what to whom centuries ago, this action was 100% directed based on religion, and there can be no possible argument otherwise.

[bettyellen]

165. centuries ago? how ignorant - it;s about life in Northern Ireland to this day.

and not about religion. read up people before you post more crap.

[dmallind]

195. Oh this should be fun

You talk so high and mighty based on your deep understanding of five week's sojourn and a few historical tidbits but somehow the VICTIM's WIFE - a resident of the nation, and a Protestant herself who was also beaten in the attack, says, in a direct quote "It was all to do with religion".

But hey - what would she know being present at the time, being beaten up by the attackers themselves, losing her husband, and still agreeing with an obviously ignorant person like me who also lived there, compared to your five weeks and patronizing holier than thou apologist claptrap?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6364252.ece

[JerseygirlCT]

64. Yes, so given that any person in a Catholic neighborhood would be

seen as a target, do you think that the cause was really an argument about theology?

Religion is identity in the area. It's team colors, or gang colors. It's simply assumed that if you live near "them", you must be "them". "Them" may conveniently be called or identified by one or the other religion (which are not very different, theologically, at all). But to move from that to an assumption that the fighting is about religion is just to completely ignore the facts and the history.

[riderinthestorm]

81. I am an Irish citizen.

Your simplification desperately tries to obfuscate religion as a demarcarcation in the conflict. Why?

It's there. It's real. I'm not sure why you want to suddenly eradicate centuries of religious difference on the issues. I'm an atheist. I could give a shit about transubstantion. But that doesn't meant it hasn't been hugely critical for many people, for many centuries.

I had an Irish grandmother (Catholic) and an English grandfather (Protestant). You are whistling Dixie if you don't think the issue matters. It's huge. They eloped and left for the US rather than face their families. They were both disowned. They fought about it internally their entire married lives. Why the desire to suddenly diminish an entire theological branch that's literally sundered history?

[donco6]

83. You are absolutely correct.

And I can't figure out her motivation here, either.

[bettyellen]

153. i can;t understand your inclination to post - except to belittle people who you have no clue of.

you have no idea how you've swallowed the offical story hook line and sinker, without a thought.
and on that basis, such little depth to your knowledge, you ridicule people and oversimplify their years of oppression and struggle . Shame on you!

[donco6]

174. What ridicule?

What are you even talking about?

[bettyellen]

176. 10K angels dancing on a pin, tee hee. that;s as relevant as when republicans fight gay marrraige

by saying next people will want to marry pigs and cows.
and just as insulting.

[donco6]

183. I was just responding to the other post about how -

all this fighting is senseless. Killing a guy over a soccer game because he lives in a Catholic area? It's ridiculous.

[bettyellen]

190. oh i know it's a sensless crime, but pls see my other post for why it offends so.

[JerseygirlCT]

85. Because it wasn't the religion

that sundered history.

Think about it. Do you really want to say that the long history of violence between Ireland and England was due to religion? That might sound odd, especially if you look at the invasions and violence that happened before the reformation.

Do you think the English were genuinely motivated by a missionary zeal to convert the Irish to Protestantism and that's why they did what they did? Or that the Irish didn't much care about being invaded; it was purely a question of keeping their own faith?

It's all tied together. And I'm betting you know that full well.

[riderinthestorm]

89. You're trying to separate the two issues. But they aren't separate.

I know full well that the religious was harnessed to the political.

THAT is precisely my point. And you reiterated it - "It's all tied together". So don't try to separate it out.

You can try all you like to make this NOT a religious thang... but it is.

[bettyellen]

124. it matters little to those there now. we aren't talking about your family two generations ago

people are not nearly as religous as they used to be. it;s about political stuggles, human rights violations, economic injustice. Not about differences in how you view Mary or the Eucharist.
I'm an Irish citizen too, spent more than a month in NI, this isn;t about your family, although it;s nice the British media props up your wish to do so.

[dmallind]

159. so lemme recap

They pick victims based on living in Catholic neighborhoods because they assume these people must be Catholics (who are incidentally far from universal in views on a united Ireland). We know and agree they do not verify politics or social opinion, but somehow religion is not the issue?

[donco6]

175. Evidently not.

This whole argument has devolved into circles. And for some reason, it really pisses people off to even logically consider the possibility that religion might be involved. I don't get it.

[bettyellen]

180. 'might be involved" LOL, way to backtrack

maybe you should apologise on your way out.
:hi:

[donco6]

184. For what?

[donco6]

75. I love how people jump right to "you're ignorant of the situation".

As if we haven't read innumerable articles and books about the conflict - it's origins, historical bases, timelines, major events. All in a vain attempt to remove the religion factor - to absolve it of any guilt or blame. Pah.

My best friend in college was from Northern Ireland. She lived in a huge house - Woodhill, it was called. And she knew the right of it even back then. "Catholics kill Protestants; Protestants kill Catholics; and very few even remember why anymore."

[JerseygirlCT]

82. Religion in this case is inextricably linked to

history and culture.

To be Catholic meant (and means) one thing - native Irish, lower class, rebels. To be Protestant another - usurpers, upper class, loyalists.

Ones religion was simply an identifier - a way to separate "them" and "us". For the incoming English/Scots (Protestants) Catholics presented a religious problem, because they looked outside the new overlords for guidance.

Dismissing this as a religious war leaves out most of the history. It turns the entire situation into a one-dimensional, line-drawn editorial. Sews it up neatly and allows it to be put aside as inconsequential.

Convenient yes. Honest, no.

[donco6]

88. But you're confusing the original cause with today's reality.

I really do know the history. Honest. But that's not what it's about TODAY. And I'm not "dismissing" it as a religious war. In fact, it's all the more troublesome because of that devolution. Once it's lost any rational base and now falls into the "Kill Him - He's Catholic!" realm, well, it's only that much harder to stop.

Frankly, I think the best solution is to encourage people to become agnostic. Then at least they could get back to the real issues of autonomy and self-governance.

[bettyellen]

125. TODAY it;s about economic injustice, limited political representation, basic human rights...

and to ignore that and insert religion in there when there are so many agnostics in NI is just ignorant.

[donco6]

152. So the soccer guys went out to kill the Catholic because -

- they hate proletariats?

[bettyellen]

155. good lord this all flys way over your head i'm afraid. the struggle is poor vs poor

and it's egged on by the powers that be- it's very useful for them. and then people like your friend with the big house and all the other facists laugh at the shit they stirred up to keep the poor too fucking busy to demand fair treatment under the law- by govt or by corporations.
It's called "keeping croppy down", and they Brits taught America to do it here...stir up shit and keep the sheeple busy. Goodness gracious, they had worse than the patriot act for years over there. Any peace activist knows this, but you live in ignorance. it's about how to say the rosary, and other quaint things... What utter crap. Why do you even bother?

[donco6]

185. OK, so some real information now. Thanks.

I just knew my friend. She certainly didn't laugh at anything going on. So I can't speak for her motivations or anything like that. But I was just a kid at the time, so I didn't press for any deeper information than what she spoke about.

So what I think you're saying is that, the reason the conflicts cannot and must not be construed to have religious causes, is because religion is just used as a smokescreen by those in power who benefit from the constant conflict. Therefore, to intimate a religious cause is buying in to the "trick" that's being pulled on both sides.

And I'm positing this in all seriousness, but is this correct? And if not, let me know where I'm getting it wrong.

[bettyellen]

189. yes, and tht'ts why it's so offensive.. because the British use the fact that Catholisicm is a wee

bit more mystical I guess you'd call it- than Protostantism as an excuse to mock them as being more ignorant and backward than the Protsetants. and shiftless and lazy and drunk.. deserving lll ills that came their way. sound familiar?

as sure as african americans were taken off their homeland, enslaved and then later wholly maligned for the horrid consequences- poverty/ helplessness/ addiction- the same was done to the Irish (made serfs, and then vicitms of attampted genocide). The powers that be stir up anger on both sides so the poor won't ever blame the govt for anything, they won;t feel empowered to protest for their rights. their aim is to be able to exploit the working class to the max.

they are having a hard time in the UK owning up to the robbery and attempted genocide and it's only making things worse. they need to begin to own up to it, work on a reconclliation- because people know exactly who's land was stolen hundreds of years ago. they were never given an opportunity to forgive, and so they refuse to forget.

but more importantly, the meme that this is all ancient history- that catholics in Ireland have had anywhere near equal opportunity or rights under the law in recent history is also a huge fallacy. britain declared a state of emergency almost 40 years ago and suspended rights of anyone "suspected" for any (possibly secret) reason of terrorism - starting at age 16 they could arrest them indefinately w/out evidence or cause. teenagers were taunted by soldier who knew their 16th birthday was coming up. sound familiar? yeah, well we learned it from them. the govt colluded and shared info with protestant terroritsts. teens were abused and tortured for being born into the wrong family, nothing more. people on one side of belfast couldn;t travel to the other side of town without being strip searched or having their cars taken apart piece by piece. none of these boys ever sat foot in church, they couldnt give a damn for the most part. ireland has mirrored europes decline in church going- it hasn;t the grip on the culture it did a few generations ago.

but these people grew up knowing their own country holds no opprtunity for them, their neighborhood, their homes and family all severley handicap their chance of survival. thier choices are to leave home, stay and keep your mouth shut and eeek a meager living, or fight and risk your life. their govt strives to portray them as unworthy thugs, indeed the BBC would censor anyone from just talking about a united Ireland on TV by silencing their voice and adding subtitles. (a bizarre way of making their message look quite dubious, but it works)
So when you realize we have a couple generations in NI now that grew up with this crazy and most painful reality it hurts to people laugh it off as if it ancient or merly bout the body of christ, mary or saints. it pisses me off to no end to see that the media did such a good job hiding the truth of it. they created a story makes it fun to mocj those who have suffered most. it hurt to see how effective it is in a place like DU.

i'm glad you had the patience to read and ask for more. thanks for that.

[donco6]

193. Wow.

OK - thanks for opening my eyes. As soon as you talked about how people were using religion as a means to an end, it finally clicked in my thick skull. Now it all makes perfect sense. Of course - it's the perfect tool.

I really appreciate your taking the time to spell it out. I think I can follow this stuff with a much more critical eye now. I think I was distracted by my own disdain for religion, and it was easy to run down the road of "see how bad religion is . . . it makes people do these terrible things!" And it all made sense at the time. But now I see how that's just the shadow puppet of the real masters.

I sincerely and humbly apologize for being offensive.

[bettyellen]

194. totally accepted. i was only hard on you because i expected more. LOL. I know you are a good person

and it was certainly enlightening (as well as disheartening) to see smart people be dismissive of the whole issue. it's an ugly can of worms over there, and lots of people think it's anicient and silly.
If you can ever find it in a library "The Fourth Green Field" was the doc I recorded sound for. A bit hard to find, but not impossible. Very sad, very important stuff.

[spoony]

102. Right on the nose.

You summed it up very well. But I suspect some posters are more interested in indicting religion than in understanding the conflict.

[bettyellen]

131. Ha you believe a wealthy person who belittles the importance of people fighting for economic justice

wow, it;s not just BBC that has you hoodwinked. anyone sitting on a pile of money over there will tell you the same thing. nothing to see except a bunch of silly poor people hung up on their church. LOL.

[bottomtheweaver]

133. Bingo.

And nicely put.

[bettyellen]

137. doesn't it blow your mind that the poster didn't think for a moment to consider the source?

[bettyellen]

15. thank you, the ignorance spewd here is amazing! who posts without knowing jack shit about stuff?

idjits do!

[bottomtheweaver]

19. And let's not forget that the Irish brought literacy to England

at least according to uber-Protestant anti-Irish propagandist Edmund Spenser.

ETA: he admitted it reluctantly. Also, I agree with your analysis.

[Joe Chi Minh]

25. Well, they did. Irish scholar-monks. To continental Europe, too, and on no mean

scale. They brought us out of the Dark Ages.

Read the "blurb" on this book, How the Irish Saved Civilisation:

http://www.paperbackswap.com/book/details/9780385418492-How+the+Irish+Saved+Civilization+Hinges+of+History

[Hardrada]

33. My ancestors (Vikings) did not ,alas ,appreciate their contributions.

[JerseygirlCT]

69. Ah well, but also left their own contributions

Since they pretty much decided they liked the place and stuck around. Makes me wonder how many of us with Irish heritage have at least one Viking in that family tree!

[Drunken Irishman]

87. Lots. My dad's family is Irish and our surname, while Irish, originates from a Norse name.

[JerseygirlCT]

90. I did find it interesting

that the one person I've met (outside of family) who pronounced my surname properly on the first try was a professor who knew Nordic languages, including Icelandic. I guess there's some history there - though anything I research gives a meaning in Irish. At any rate, it's an old one!

[Drunken Irishman]

96. Same. Mine is listed as Irish and not Norse.

And it's a very prominent Irish surname, specifically in the region where my family came from (a recent Irish Taoiseach shares it).

But I won't say who. ;)

[Joe Chi Minh]

147. What is it?

[JerseygirlCT]

163. Well, it's rare enough

that to offer it would pretty much identify me!

It's fairly more common in Cork, where that part of the family is from. Here in the states, there are a bunch in the Boston area, and in and around the NY metro area - but we're not many!

[Joe Chi Minh]

145. What is it, D. I.? Great name, by the way.

[Hardrada]

101. A lot of them didn't return to Norway, that's true!

They settled down much like the Norse in what is now Normandy and became acclimated to their surroundings.

[Joe Chi Minh]

146. Unfortunatey, some of them took a shine the England. Norman is simply

a version of Norsemen. They'd only been in Normandy 150 years.

Rollo and his Danish marauders caused the French king, Charles the Simple (both putative grand-pappys of mine), so much grief with their attacks on Paris, that he gave them Normandy to settle in, on certain conditions. One, I think, was that they became Christians (warts and all).

Their warlords in England, for example Hugh Lupus, would spend their lives blood-letting on a grand scale, and want nothing more in the late evening of their life than to don the monk's habit! He was very much larger than life, also in some very appealing ways, as even the wildest Irishmen, and would surely have got on with them like a house on fire. A great womaniser, he had people from all walks of life in his court. I think he was one of the first earls of Chester, maybe Carlisle before that.

[JerseygirlCT]

164. How cool that you can trace your lines back that far!

The family tree I was given goes only about to 1650... and even there is pretty spotty. And that's just one side of the family - all the other Irish surnames are so common as to be nearly untraceable - particularly since information on those grandparents' families is tough to come by. (They were out of Ireland, they were here, not much more to tell in their minds, lol).

[Joe Chi Minh]

187. It was sheer luck. My mother enquired about a book in an antiquarian

bookshop in Worcestershire about a "toff" family associated with the county, her mother (before she died of TB) told her they were descended from. He didn't have it, but said a man had been had only recently enquired from him about the same book, and gave her his name an address.

He sent her a lot of guff on the family, as his wife was descended from them. Eventually, he sent me 40+ pages each with a different branch of the line, plus a number of big charts. He had gone back as far as Adela, the first wife (childless) of Henry I. She married a second time to a William Albini, Earl of Arundel and somewhere else. He held the child king Stephen hostage at one time and they played a children's game with straws. He was never going to harm him. Any through Adela the chart went up to a guy called Lambert (of Lens, I think). I thought it odd that it mentioned the guy baldly, so made my own enquiries. The info he'd sent me blew me away, but what I found was even more crazy, going back to Charlemagne, Alfred The Great, etc.

But oddly enough, one of my favourites is an earl of Desmond, who was sent to Ireland (given a plantation) to keep the Irish down, but he took to them so much, he led them in a rebellion and got his head chopped off. Much more, though of a comical nature about Desmond, but it's late.

Funnny thing is, what I found was the easy bit. He and/or a genealogist had done the really hard stuff. One of my uncle's names was Blathwayte, called after the family I mentioned first, but though he was Secretary of State for War and other stuff (friend of Pepys, incidentally, and mentioned in his book, ASTB - working in the same office). Also have a photo of the gravestone of an ancestral aunt of that name, my cousin took.

[JerseygirlCT]

192. Very cool!

The family tree I have came via a distant cousin who introduced himself via email, hoping we might be related. My name is the same as his daughter's you see.

And not only did he have the tree, but a family history - which it turns out was created for my grandfather's cousin - way over on my side of the tree - far, far from his!

And though online searches of the name promise that it traces back to an ancient King, well, so does everyone with Irish blood, I think! There's some misty history of the name way far back, but no direct connection I can draw to the tree I've got.

[Joe Chi Minh]

143. Lots and lots, I should think. After all, they rather liked the Dublin region.

As Viktor Kayam used to say in TV ads here in the UK, I liked the razor so much I bought the factory. They liked it so much they took it by the edge of the sword.

[no name no slogan]

205. The red hair comes from the vikings

So they left that if nothing else.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. Fun book!

Sitting on my shelf downstairs, I believe!

[proteus_lives]

91. Great Book!

I enjoyed it immensely! :-)

[bottomtheweaver]

134. Too bad it didn't stick!

:hi:

[JerseygirlCT]

66. Celtic culture was flourishing long before

what became the English even existed as a people. And from then on, a love for learning has been one of the cultural characteristics of the people.

[Joe Chi Minh]

148. As the extremely truculent Brendan Behan put it, ".... when the

barbarian woad-painted Briton was first learning to walk upright. ..." Reading that, it's not too difficult to believe they still put flowers on the memorials to the Fallen during the invasion by Cromwell's troops, as I was told by someone who toured Ireland with his family! Lo-o-o-n-g, lo-o-o-n-g memories.


Funny thing is, I believe he actually liked the English, the "ordinary" Joe and Jane.

[Drunken Irishman]

31. Thank you.

But we'll just use religion as the scapegoat because it's easy.

[JerseygirlCT]

70. Any opportunity

to rail against religion, especially if it can be combined with an easy answer to a complex issue, seems to be irresistible to some!

[riderinthestorm]

92. You know what? I resent this.

My grandfather was English (Protestant), my grandmother was Irish (Catholic). They eloped and came to the US because of their RELIGIOUS differences. It was impossible for either of them to live in their respective homelands. Do you see that clearly? They could not exist as a married couple in their respective homelands because of their different religions.

I grew up with their religious bicker (everything else was amicable). I know, first hand, the deep divide that the religious can cause. You can dismiss it all you like, but it's part and parcel of the "troubles". You are dead wrong, DEAD WRONG, to think anyone is pinning the Ireland/UK issue on "one" issue but to dismss religion as a major part means you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[donco6]

177. And that's all I'm saying, as well.

What's with all the venom against this possibility by so many others?

[JerseygirlCT]

62. I do find a bit of irony

in the idea that the team supported by the Catholics is from Glasgow - because the English imported many Scots into northern Ireland in order to have "their own" people there.

But thank you for this - I keep saying the situation is far more complex and not easily dismissed as a religious problem. Theologically, not much difference between CofI and the RCC. Slightly bigger between Presbyterians (largely the Scots who came over) and the RCC.

But this is tribal, not religious.

[muriel_volestrangler]

110. Not that much irony - Celtic was founded by an Irish priest

who worked in the poor Irish community in Glasgow:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/sportscotland/asportingnation/article/0003/

The leagues in Ireland (Republic or Northern Ireland) have never been large enough to support clubs that have major success (while Celtic, for instance, were the first British club to win the European Cup), so it's not surprising to find those in Ireland giving support to clubs they identify with in Scotland (and the Protestants similarly gravitated to Rangers) - movement between Northern Ireland and Scotland has been large for some time. Irish support for Liverpool, the chief English port for Irish traffic, and with a lot of Irish-related people in the city, has also been high.

[JerseygirlCT]

111. Very interesting... thanks! nt

[bettyellen]

16. "somehow" why dont you fucking read up before psting BS like this? you prefer to wallow

in the pig shit of ignorance .

[enlightenment]

24. You certainly have the language - but in all the nasty posts

you have yet to make a substantive argument to counter the 'BS' that you keep accusing other posters of writing.

If you have an intelligent thing to say, please say it - because so far, the only person who looks ignorant is you.

And yes, I am interjecting myself into this because I am very tired of reading threads filled with ugly, vulgar, meaningless invective like your posts. It's ridiculous.

[bettyellen]

140. there are substantive arguements all over this thread, I shouldn't need to repeat them

i think it's ugly vulgar and extremely harmful to ignorantly parrot colonialist bullshit propaganda.
Which is what we have here w/ people minimizing - mocking even- what's gone on in NI.

[dmallind]

27. touchy touchy

exactly how did I get it wrong. Victim chosen entirely on the basis of living in a Catholic area. I read that. You? How is that NOT about religion?

[donco6]

65. Actually, he's the one making the most sense here. n/t

[bettyellen]

127. if you believe everything you hear on BBC, probably so, LOL. but I've been there and done it, fella.

so I'm calling BS on it.

[donco6]

172. I suppose that could be where he gets it.

I wouldn't know.

[juno jones]

20. Years ago, I had a friend who had toured Scotland and Ireland

in the early '70's, right after he had gotten out of service in vietnam.

He said the scariest thing he encountered was in Scotland. A very large, very drunk man in a pub confronted him (he is genetically quite Irish) and asked if he was 'green or orange'.

He declined the confrontation and insisted that as an american he had no idea of what the gentleman was talking about...which might have saved the skin of at least one of them, as my friend was probably as deadly in a fight as the aforementioned scotsman.

Both the politics and the religion just sort of keep oozing around those parts even after all these years.

[Mythsaje]

23. I met a young Irishman in SF in '87

Someone made the mistake of asking him if he were Protestant or Catholic. His response? "I'm a pagan!" He shouted, striking the ground around the person's feet with his walking stick and chasing them halfway up the street.

I don't think he liked the question.

[dmallind]

28. Exactly - and Green and Orange are labels and symbols of one thing only - religion. NT

[JerseygirlCT]

71. Nope

Green and orange, like Catholic or Protestant, are tribal labels. Ways to immediately judge which side the guy over there is on - yours or theirs.

[bettyellen]

132. i really think of them as political persuasions. and many christians in ireland are neither.

you no doubt understand the truth of it. we are splitting hairs, but these people here are all making it about one person they met once or their grandma. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[JerseygirlCT]

135. That

and the usual knee-jerk response to any problem: blame religion, wipe your hands of it, and move on feeling smugly superior.

[bettyellen]

136. that's exactly what the British governement wants them to believe.

it's amazing we have gay men here mocking people struggle for civil and human rights. Foolish and offensive.

[dmallind]

157. and these tribal labels represent what sides exactly?

The Gaelic traditionalists and the followers of William of Orange? Which would be what religions respectively?

[bettyellen]

200. are you just pretending to be stupid, mr "colonialism is no longer a problem"

colonialism is no longer a problem for aome people-like your friend with the big house.
how'd her family benefit from the land transfers, or did you firget to ask- since it's all so conviently in the past. the only people who say there are no legit grievences are those who benefitted.

[anonymous171]

30. Religion is the source of all evil.

Not.

[dmallind]

32. No that's true - it's not

It is however the source of a whole lot of it, and the excuse and touchpaper for a whole lot more.

This is unavoidable when you have any group of people who believe a perfect and omnipotent being cares about how they believe and how they act, and is on their side against other groups of people.

[donco6]

68. And yet, wherever there's violence, agony and death -

there's religion, waving from the top of the heap!

[anonymous171]

74. Ever think that it is the other way around?

That religion is generated by the suffering produced those conflicts over land and/or power?

[donco6]

76. And it results in - what? A shift in power?

Suddenly, the mightiest find themselves at the mercy of the mystic. And they all wind up in a hell of their own creation.

[spoony]

103. Holy hyperbole...literally...

Today in metro Detroit a woman murdered her father over a leftover dinner roll. I'm sure you'll be able to implicate religion in that, too, eh?

[bitchkitty]

100. Goes past religion.

The religion is just an excuse to hate.

Hatred is a contagious disease.

[WildEyedLiberal]

141. It's not. It's about ethnicity and sovereignty

"Catholic" and "Protestant" are the media's code words for Irish nationalists (who are usually ethnically Irish) versus those who remain loyal to the crown and wish N. Ireland to remain a part of the UK (usually Scots-Irish or other "Protestants"). It has dick all to do with theology or religious beliefs.

But don't let that stop you from hijacking this tragedy to deliver a soapbox rant about "Xtianity" :eyes:

[Seldona]

4. Waiting for the obligatory 'not a true scotsman fallacy' post.

Any minute now...

[dmallind]

9. You know I've never actually seen a NTS applied to....Scotsmen! NT

[Seldona]

36. It is rather unique, at least in my experiance.

:)

[brentspeak]

98. It's hard to dispute that there's a lot of N.Ireland riff-raff who've made Glasgow their new home

Catholic and Protestant paramilitary thugs from Belfast have traditionally found sanctuary in Glasgow for decades, turning Glasgow into Scotland's Troubles.

[CoffeeCat]

6. Clearly this is a threat to our national safety...

...where's Cheney and when will he unveil his new plan to invade Ireland?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

14. what? soccer?

yikes. I LOVE soccer.

[caraher]

18. "how sports rivalries inspire sectarian bloodshed..."

Fact is, the numbskulls who want to beat and kill people use sport and religion and anything else handy as cover for their violence.

[Mythsaje]

22. Sports are wonderful, sports are great...

Watch them from the safety of your own home. Or else.

[underpants]

34. Oops I duped you

my bad

[underpants]

37. Northern Ireland Soccer Mob Beats Catholic Man to Death

Source: Fox News

DUBLIN — Militant Protestant supporters of a Scottish soccer team beat to death a Roman Catholic man in the latest sign of how sports rivalries inspire sectarian bloodshed in Northern Ireland, police and politicians said Monday.

Witnesses said more than 20 Protestant supporters of Glasgow Rangers, many of them wearing the team's blue-and-white jerseys and scarves, drove into a Catholic district of the town of Coleraine after Rangers clinched the Scottish Premier League championship Sunday.

Billy Leonard, a former policeman and politician from the Irish nationalist party Sinn Fein, said several carloads of anti-Catholic extremists came armed with clubs "and literally attacked the first person they came across."

Kevin McDaid, 49, was fatally bludgeoned while his wife, Evelyn, and a 46-year-old Catholic neighbor, Damien Fleming, were both injured. Fleming was reported in critical condition.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521721,00.html

---

Rangers enjoys support exclusively from the British Protestant side of the community in Northern Ireland, while archrival Glasgow Celtic draws support only from the Irish Catholics.

Both sides like soccer — but rarely root for the same teams. In international competitions, Catholics back the Republic of Ireland soccer team, Protestants the Northern Ireland squad. Many Belfast pubs refuse to admit customers if they are wearing soccer jerseys or scarves, particularly the rival Glasgow colors, because of the likelihood it will spark a fight.

Sunday climax gives Rangers Scottish title
May 26, 2009
http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/soccer/sunday-climax-gives-rangers-scottish-title/2009/05/25/1243103488076.html
RANGERS reclaimed the Scottish Premier League trophy from arch-rival Celtic for the first time in four years on Sunday after their 3-0 win over Dundee United on the season's final day.

[donco6]

38. Just fucking Pathetic.

I'm getting to truly despise religion of any stripe.

[Occulus]

45. I'm more than beginning to agree with you, donco.

At least, so far as organized religion in general is concerned.

Look, people, it's very simple: if you're going to ascribe to one omnipotent and all-powerful being the creation of the entire universe, you must admit that that being can take or choose to take any form at any time. You have no business at all saying that yours is the one true interpretation. Your mind is not capable, from a physical sense, of handling all the evidence necessary to make that claim, nor is your soul- however you may choose to define that word- capable of dealing with that enormity in the spiritual sense.

Believe whatever you want to believe, but for the love of all those things you profess to believe in DO NOT:

- interject your religion into any political framework that includes people not of your particular religion

- interject your religion into any athletic activity that includes people not of your religion

- interject your religion into artistic venues that include people not of your religion

- interject your religion into civil or criminal laws that apply to people not of your religion

- interject your religion into the education of people not of your religion

If your religion can't do all those things, or if it as much as tries to do any of these things, your religion, from my point of view, does not deserve to be acknowledged, and I'll go so far as to say it doesn't deserve to exist as an official entity in this country (think tax exemption here).

Our nation was, in part, founded upon the idea that people of one particular religion are not better than or more deserving than people of any other religion. I know this article referred to another country, but at least four of the items I listed above take place with rampant, corrosive abandon here in the United States. This is a relatively new thing here; however, for the nearly forty years we've labored beneath organized religion's unasked-for yoke, it's only gotten worse.

It is time, and past time, for us to have pushed religion in all its organized forms out of the public square. It may not happen with sports in the US, but it's clearly a "present danger" with regards to politics, education, the law, and even health care (morally objectionable prescriptions, anyone?).

The only thing that can stop it is that most severe and decapitating penalty: the removal of tax exemptions for the most trivial of violations of the applicable laws (remember: you can lose your house and your kids, in some places, for having a joint on your own property). The religulous are 100% correct when they say that this will close some churches. What they don't admit is that many churches, especially the megachurches that operate religious malls on the grounds and tell their congregations how to vote, deserve exactly that absolute penalty.

Organized religion is becoming a serious problem here. It has been seen to ever more and more, interfere in the public square, to the detriment of the nonreligious and those not "of the faith". Even our own military is becoming fundy-christianized.

Enough, okay? Just.... enough.

[donco6]

46. I can give that an "amen." n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

51. I think in this case, you and many others are looking

at religion as a root of this problem. It most definitely is not. It's a symptom, it's a way of identifying the sides in a fight. It's like the uniforms each team puts on.

This isn't a fight about religion. This is an ancient fight about rights, about self-determination, about history. It's long-standing grudges now being fought on a sports field as battlefield.

Religion is far from the root of the problem. For that, you have to dig far deeper.

[salguine]

47. This isn't about religion. This is about football. British football supporters have

been banned from places all over Europe for exactly this type of behavior. There's no religious element at work here.

That being said, I agree with your assessment of religion. it's poison.

[AngryAmish]

48. Then why are Celtic supporters Irish and Ranger supporters Protestants?

There are fights in Chicago about this very same thing.

It is religiously based.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. As I said elsewhere in this post

religion is identity here.

There are few theological differences. Religion is what each side takes on to identify and separate themselves.

Sports - particulary football - has become the battlefield of choice.

This is history and politics.

[pnwmom]

53. Oh yeah? Then why did they invade a Catholic district to find someone to kill?

Of course religion is involved.

[JerseygirlCT]

55. Read my other posts

Do you think they looked for a Catholic because they had a real, fighting problem with, say, transubstantiaion?

In this context "Catholic" or "Protestant" is about which team you're on - in a sense that goes beyond sporting teams and goes beyond religion. It's tribal, and it's history for hundreds and hundreds of years back. It's the quick indentifier of "us" or "them".

[pnwmom]

105. I have. And I agree with riderinthestorm's point of view.

They invaded a Catholic neighborhood because they were looking for a Catholic to beat up on.

You can't separate the Catholic from the rest of the person -- and Northern Ireland has long been divided along religious lines.

[JerseygirlCT]

49. Religion here is a symptom, not at all the cause

In fact, religious differences, theological ones, are pretty slim and finely drawn.

This is politics. No less ugly for that, but this is about history, and rights, and long-standing grudges. In this situation (as in others around the world), religion is more like the uniform assigned to each team - it's what they put on for identity.

[pnwmom]

52. Theologically speaking, you may be correct. But in the real world,

the gap between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland is still wide.

[JerseygirlCT]

54. It is, but it's not a fight based on religious differences

Religion is the identity worn by those on both sides. It says more than "Catholic" or "Protestant". It tells a long story of history for either side - and anger and grudges sometimes held so long those holding them can't quite remember why.

It's the quick identifier of which side you're on, where you belong.

[donco6]

58. That's just incorrect.

It most certainly is based on religious differences. Otherwise they could just switch jerseys and no one would care. But the fact is, they WOULD care - a great deal. This is not a "mix and match" situation. And the basis of it is religion. The superstition is a scourge on civilization.

[JerseygirlCT]

72. No, it's not

"Switching jerseys" in this case is about switching hundreds of years of history. Religion is but one aspect of that cultural identity. And this fight is not about religion. It's about a history of subjugation and genocide perpetrated against one side, and terrorism from both sides.

Religion is part of that identity - it's a quick way to say someone must be a "them" or an "us". This fight goes far deeper than that.

[donco6]

80. But if that's all it takes to decide who's "us" and "them",

why keep insisting "the fight goes deeper than that?" No it doesn't. You can go on and on about the roots and British hegemony and oppression and which religion the monarchy held at the time - but no one (or very, very few) even REMEMBERS all that shit anymore. Religion has to take its share of the blame, because its the primary reinforcement behind the interminable conflict.

[bettyellen]

116. you couldn;t be more wrong everyone remembers ALL that shit and it isn;t about beliefs at all

it's about the ugly history, no one can forget it. and it still effects so many lives.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. Their religious differences really aren't that great at all

Blaming religion is really oversimplifying it, as stated very well over and over again by bettyellen and JerseyGirlCT.

[pnwmom]

106. I think it is oversimplifying to say this is all about soccer violence, as other posters

have claimed.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

109. I never said it was about soccer violence

I think soccer has nothing to do with it.

[bettyellen]

119. other posters are trying to clarify this is about human rights, self determination, economic injusti

and a political struggle, and not about Jesus Mary and Joseph or sports.
But peopl elike to make it all about silly little religous nit picking. Fools.

[willing dwarf]

107. I'd say there are real religious, economic, cultural and political differences

which have fed the separate communities. I think the hard lesson is that such a deeply rooted conflict, with such a history of injustice and disparity of opportunity is bound to re-emerge. It's like iron weed, which has a very long tap root, when you break it off in one spot, it resurfaces elsewhere.

I think that if the catholic community can grow beyond a self-image of being the victim, then the bloody tree of martyrdom might finally wither and die. Unfortunately the protestants in the North are rude in your face types who won't give over their obnoxious desire to justify their past (I mean their still actively celebrating their disgusting victories from the time of Cromwell!)

I am a peace activist, but it's taken me years to reach a point of understanding and forgiving the behavior of the Protestants in the North.

[JerseygirlCT]

112. Yes. As with so many of these kinds of situations

the only real way forward is to MOVE forward.

History cannot and will not be forgotten, but people, enough of them anyway, need to want a peaceful future more than a hate-filled past to reach it.

[bettyellen]

117. lol, "self image" jesus fuck that's rich.

[smirkymonkey]

197. One thing nobody has mentioned is that in Northern Ireland, a lot

of the current problems stem from the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 where the Protestant William of Orange defeated the Catholic King James II, who wished to secure autonomy of Ireland from the English Parliament. (Before that there were actually wealthy Catholic landowners who lost nearly everything after Cromwell's conquests, so it wasn't entirely about the "poor Catholics" either).

The victory is STILL celebrated every July 12th by the Protestant Orange Order (like you said, actively celebrating their disgusting victories - and the oppressive penal codes imposed upon Irish Catholics after William's victory - where they actually march through Catholic neighborhoods, further inflaming the situation.) To me, this is like rubbing salt in the wounds of the Irish Catholics and it shows the Ulster Protestants are completely unwillng to end their tyranny and reach a state of peace with their Catholic brethren. This is political, no doubt, but the teams are and were Catholic and Protestant from the beginning.

[muriel_volestrangler]

198. James II wanted his British (and Irish) throne back, not 'autonomy for Ireland'

He just fought in Ireland because that was where he'd get the most support.

[donco6]

114. Yes, I know. Which only makes it worse.

The differences in religion that they fight over are as stupid as can be, but as dmallind and riderinthestorm have pointed out, these soccer roughs weren't out there asking about anything deeper before they beat the guys to death. They found some poor Catholic and killed him. That's what it's DEVOLVED to. And with religion in the way, they can NEVER get back to the real issues. It's all pride and history and orange and green, and that's all people know.

[JerseygirlCT]

118. Yes, but do you really think that had he sworn before they

beat him to death that he didn't believe the pope to be anything but another bishop in Rome, that they would have stopped? Or if he said, boys, I live here in the Catholic neighborhood because my dad was Catholic, but I've always been a good Protestant, they would have stopped?

I rather doubt it.

[bettyellen]

168. don;t waste your time- these denyers here think colonialism is somehting that WAS a problem

and it's all been sorted long ago and this is all about voodoo religous minutae, Oy!

[donco6]

170. Good point; probably not.

I'm sure they just assumed anyone living in the area had to be Catholic. Or perhaps he was wearing the wrong scarf. Or whatever. When you're drunk off your ass, as I'm sure they were, it's difficult to imagine any conversation going on besides, "Stop, you're killing me!"

I realize I've offended a lot of people by questioning the role of religion in the conflict, and whether we've got it right with our current insistence that religion plays no part whatsoever. I'm just not convinced - and I haven't heard much so far to change my thinking.

Some of the epithets were pretty creative though!

[JerseygirlCT]

186. Of course religion

has played its part in the history of this fight... but it's really more a symptom than a cause.

And the quickness with which some dismiss this as "just another bunch of religious idiots fighting - nothing to see here folks" is difficult to take: it's both intellectually lacking and lazy. (I'm not saying you've fallen into this - just that it becomes an attractive trend around these parts at times).

It's a long dispute, it's happened among people with long memories. (Connections with a druid past? They committed nothing to paper; all to memory...)

As others have pointed out, people aren't necessarily all that religious in N. Ireland today. And they're not killing over theological differences. Hell, I think a murder after a football match is a good clue that they don't even know WHAT they're killing about anymore - it's just a primal "us" or "them" thing and reason rarely plays much of a role. There's anger, there's fear, there's a feeling that someone you or your people have been abused or will be abused... it's complex.

[riderinthestorm]

73. I actually hold Irish citizenship. My grandfather-English Protestant, my grandmother-Irish Catholic

They eloped to the states to escape it all but talking to them and seeing it first hand as a citizen, you can blithely try to dismiss it all as "team" identifiers but those team identifiers are at their most basic - religious.

THAT'S truth. We dismiss religious fanaticism at our peril. I'm sorry that DUers as a whole want to diminish religious fanaticism but this episode is just one (in a long line) of violent episodes based upon religion.

[bettyellen]

126. your family story is not the whole story, much as you'd like it to be.

[donco6]

151. But I guess it's completely diregard-able.

Since it doesn't coincide with your preconceptions. Sad.

[bettyellen]

154. preconceptions? check yourself and adress my other posts. your foolish "insider" knowledge

is as credible as if I interviewed say Sarah Palin and asked her about gay rights.

[donco6]

181. It was just one experience, I apologize for mentioning it.

It certainly hasn't shaped everything I believe. And I am willing to be taught. I could certainly be wrong. I would appreciate some better information to help shape my thinking. How about it?

[bettyellen]

191. thank you. check (my very long) reply.

[JonQ]

39. They take their sports a little too seriously

n/t

[underpants]

40. Ooops! this is a DUPE I duped

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3892180&mesg_id=3892180

[spoony]

104. Sometimes, yes.

It all too often becomes infused with cultural significances that can lead to things like this. When Europeans talk football, it often dissolves into national and/or class bickering. Sometimes that happens in the US--I remember some instances of Detroit having to defend itself as a city during playoff series against media attacks from the other city (the typical 'does anyone really live in that burned out ghetto' rhetoric). But it's much nastier in Europe.

[SoxFan]

41. All I will say is...

[MichaelHarris]

42. If they

had more guns in Ireland this would never happen.

:sarcasm:

[donco6]

43. Now you're in for it. n/t

[MichaelHarris]

44. I know

I'll never learn.

[proteus_lives]

93. That sucks.

I hope the region isn't cycling up for another round of violence. Individual things like this have a way of stacking up until the situation deflates or blows up completely.

[brentspeak]

95. Making this atrocity even more surreal, this is after Rangers actually WON their game

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

I don't have the time for this, so I'll just rec all of bettyellen's and JerseyGirlCT's posts

[WildEyedLiberal]

150. Seconded

They said it as well or better than I could anyway.

Scoring cheap points against "religion" - even if it means affirming and reinforcing colonial oppression, forced relocation, and genocide - is more important to a decent chunk of DUers than supporting human rights.

Why do I get the feeling that the same DUers regurgitating British imperial talking points in this thread are the first ones to fall on their internet Gandhi martyr swords whenever issues like pacifism and capital punishment come up?

[AlphaCentauri]

99. Fuck Henry VIII

[JerseygirlCT]

113. This started long before Henry VIII

Unfortunately.

[panzerfaust]

108. Ah. Team Sports and Religion

Two of my most favorite things.

[Blue_Tires]

115. the Old Firm has brought around this kind of fuckwittery before...

in some cultures, soccer hooliganism, politics and religion all go hand-in-hand

[LanternWaste]

162. So do we collectively blame religion, sports, nationalism or warm beer...?

So do we collectively blame religion, sports, nationalism, warm beer, or the Irish/English question...?

(for my part, I would simply place the blame onto the individual transgressors rather than engaging in a tired but popular refrain of post-hoc-ergo-prompter-hoc (nice tune & I can dance to it) but then again, I'm somewhat old fashioned)

[LeftishBrit]

167. Horrible

Sadly, there are still extremists on both sides in NI, who don't like the peace agreement and would like to start a war again. So far, they've been unsuccessful, and let's hope this continues despite this horrible action.

RIP Kevin McDaid, and I hope the murderers are locked up and the key thrown away.

[Dramarama]

169. Wow

I had no idea this still went on (anti-Catholicism)

[flvegan]

204. Longest football thread on DU ever. Bit charred on the edges,

but the nooks and crannies are just fine.