Photos show rape and sex abuse in Iraq jails-paper

[cal04]

Source: Reuters

Photographs of Iraqi prisoner abuse which U.S. President Barack Obama does not want released include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse, Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper reported on Thursday.

The images are among photographs included in a 2004 report into prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison conducted by U.S. Major General Antonio Taguba.

Taguba included allegations of rape and sexual abuse in his report, and on Wednesday he confirmed to the Daily Telegraph that images supporting those allegations were also in the file.

"These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency," Taguba, who retired in January 2007, was quoted as saying in the paper.

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LS172193.htm

---

Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html

[cliffordu]

1. I want the photos leaked. I want the perps sent to fucking prison.

[bloomington-lib]

3. I'm all for justice but

I think leaking the pictures will do more harm than good. An innocent American soldier or citizen would probably be kidnapped and tortured or killed in retaliation. It's easy to say show it from the safety of your computer but imagine going to the streets of Sadar City and passing the pictures out yourself.

[valerief]

6. Yeah, lets bring ALL our soldiers home quickly so we can release the photos and

punish the criminals who ordered the torture.

[defendandprotect]

32. I second that . . .

:)

[tabasco]

9. Iraqis already know what happened.

The photos will inform the people of the USA.

Releasing the photos, willingly, will show that the US is serious about obtaining justice and holding criminals accountable.

Did you support the initial invasion of Iraq? Were you so concerned about the safety of US soldiers then?

[bloomington-lib]

11. Why would you assume I supported the invasion?

That makes no sense at all.

[frog92969]

12. Your talking points gave that impression

IMO

[tabasco]

14. I asked you and you still haven't answered.

Is your reading ability impaired?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloomington-lib]

21. Try this again

I don't really think your interested in what I think, seeing how you are also assuming I have some reading impairment, but to answer you question, no I did not support the invasion. I was and still am concerned for everyones lives affected by this horrendous action.

Just because I'm concerned about the hypothetical lives I mentioned does not mean I supported the invasion and every f'd up thing that has happened because of it. I think that the only way you'll get what you want by releasing the pictures is if so many people get so pissed off that a lot of innocents die from rioting or whatever that action will have to be taken. The Bushies will HAVE to throw out a lamb(s) to bring some kind of satisfaction to all sides.

I don't want innocent people to die for the sake of getting a few lambs. I should be able to look at it from another side with your insults or being questioned on what side of the aisle I'm on.

That being said, if there is another way to bring justice to the perps like having a military court view the evidence, I would be happier.

[tabasco]

222. I think releasing the photos will save lives.

It spent a long time in the infantry and if I was still on the front lines, I'd say the same thing.

The US needs to show the world we are serious about admitting our mistakes and preventing it from happening again.

Our government needs to show its citizens the full extent of our fuck up.

Otherwise, it will happen again and again.

[No Elephants]

56. Exactly. U.S. voters are the only ones who don't know. The rest of the world

has heard every possible thing, whether it actually happened or not.

Prosecute, Mr. President.

[Swagman]

183. I would think all Iraqis and the entire ME knows what happened

saying the pictures will fuel resentment against the USA is a poor excuse.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

58. No innocent adult in America, even if they did not know? BS.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cliffordu]

24. WTF...

Lets just cover it up and then the only people who will know what really happened are the Iraqis

And we all know they don't mean a fucking thing

:sarcasm:


AND:


That's got to be the stupidest fucking reason I've ever heard for NOT publishing and punishing.

And your ruse about the safety of my computer is as disingenuous an argument as I've seen.

[cosmicone]

26. Al Q'aeda, Taliban and others already know what is in the pics

The release is for the rest of the world to show how inhuman we can be. To expose our dirty laundry and then punish those who made it dirty so this can never happen again.

[No Elephants]

57. Although the rest of the world will see, the release is mostly for the American voter. I hope

it stops people from ever voting for another neocon; and I hope it makes voters make it clear to Obama that he HAS to investigate and prosecute if he wants to get re-elected, not to mention if he wants to help keep Americans safe.

It's one thing for the world to vomit on Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, et al. But, if we don't hold the evildoers responsible, it looks as though America is ok with it. And, if that is how it looks, the contempt for us worldwide is going to be hard to deal with.

Prosecute, Mr. President.

[Baby Snooks]

40. Innocent?

I have such a hard time with the assumption that everyone is innocent in all of this. We are protecting our innocent military? The photos would indicate they're not really innocent. Which is why no one wants them released. The outrage here probably would be greater than anywhere else.

The Marines. The few, the proud. It was Marines who raped a 14 year girl and then murdered her. They raped her AFTER they forced her to watch them murder her parents and her younger sister. The few, the proud?

The Iraqi people did not attack us. The Iraqi people did not declare war on us. THEY are the innocent ones. Not us.

[KansDem]

164. I tend to agree...

The days of "honor and integrity" in the American armed forces are sadly drawing to a close. And this from the son of a career Navy man and nephew of a retired Air Force general. The military played an important role in my family.

But lately, with reports of war profiteering among military brass and heinous crimes committed by the enlisted personal, I wonder if the American military has become nothing more than "muscle" for American corporations, with its officers acting like "mob bosses" and the enlisted personal its "hitmen."

I just dread the day the American military is turned on the American people by orders of the Corptocracy...

[RaleighNCDUer]

220. Curiously, that was exactly the charges General Smedley Butler

made more than 70 years ago, when he exposed the Businessmen's Plot - which was subsequently hushed up because we couldn't afford such a scandal when we were getting ready for WW2.

This is not exactly a new phenomenon.

[magellan]

46. You think this is a secret?

Some if not all of what was photographed happened years ago. The Iraqis, Afghanis and everyone else in the Middle East knows what goes on in our prisons. They didn't need photos to learn about it. Hell, most of the world knows about this.

The only people these photos would shock is Americans. Most haven't got a clue what depraved things happened at our prisons. And an unnerving percentage who DO know don't care.

[bushmeister0]

53. Taguba says:

"'I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one' The sequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy.'"

Yeah, the "legal one." That's kind of the point, isn't it? It's evidence of a crime. A crime which the longer we ignore it endangers our troops even more and makes out foreign policy a travesty.

And to your point: "The only people these photos would shock is Americans."

Exactly right! This is the old Cold War formulation. Everything is a secret because they might find out, but they already know. . . The only people who don't know is us! Which, I guess, is the real point.

[Igel]

216. Their release would serve a number of purposes.

But for Taguba to say them would, he almost certainly believed, be to impugn the character of some of those demanding the photos release.

As for what Iraqis know, in many cases they know more than is. It's one of the problems in a society long unfree and in which the enemy is, for purposes of self-image, enlarged to superhuman size: What's "known" and what actually "is" tend to diverge so much in the media that they also diverge in public opinion and the minds of citizens.

Of course, such a lack of congruence can also happen for other reasons, but we're talking about Iraq.

[northernlights]

61. they already know what happened

Thinking that they aren't aware of what was done...that the survivors just shut up...I think is rather naive.

Americans are pretty much the only ones who aren't aware of what was done in our name with our dollars. We're the ones looking the other way, or with heads buried in the sand.

They have to be released. I was talking to a once moderate-conservative friend who's been turned "freeper" by the freepers he's worked with for the past 8 years or so.

Nothing --NOTHING-- has made an impression on him. Until I explained to him what was in the pictures. That they sodomized Iraqi teenagers in front of their mothers. It was the wake-up call he has desperately needed.

[truth2power]

78. ...

:thumbsup:

[Lorien]

94. I was thinking much the same the other day. The Arab world already knows

what we've done over there-and it's almost as if our military is doing everything it can to create GREATER tensions and rage, all while just showing enough restraint to keep those watching Faux believing that we're somehow the "good guys" over there. Personally I think that these are being kept from being released to avoid AMERICAN outcry against the occupation. Most Americans are still apathetic, but these photos could change that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. It's a good reason to get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan

Release the photos.

I have seen some of them. They need to be released.

[Bluenorthwest]

77. Handing out the photos in Sadar City?

Tell me who is suggesting that? No really. While I might suggest going to Sadar City and passing out the actual rapists to the people, I don't think anyone but you has suggested that anyone would physically hand the photos out on the streets where the victims live and lived. Expect you.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

The Iraqis already know about the rape and torture

The poster's "point" was asinine and not based in reality.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

125. Most of the American public doesn't know

Go to any street corner and ask. I'll bet you more than half haven't heard about the rape pictures.

So the Arab world already isn't inflamed at our actions? Talk about being a fool.

[Egnever]

127. Your logic is simplistic

Because they already know it cant get worse. Right?

Like I replied to you earlier show me the pics of you on the streets of Iraq and ill take your drivel seriously.

[Tempest]

130. Your drivel will be taken seriously

When you have an legitimate point to make.

Our soldiers can't be in any more danger than they are now.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

140. I held off for as long as possible

But you left me no choice but to alert the moderators to your continuing personal attacks.

Have a nice life.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snooper2]

177. ROFL

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Michigan-Arizona]

153. I'm thinking you are very correct

A few people that I've spoke to don't know much about these picture's & what type of abuse they contain.

[northernlights]

170. no, shoving it in American's faces will have an effect

Most Americans do NOT know. They do NOT have a clue. Most of them don't read much, certainly not past headlines.

So releasing the memos was simply not enough. At most, they think about it in the abstract. We are conditioned to turning away from horror, and it's easy to ignore what's in writing. It's easy to "pretend" you can imagine what waterboarding is like -- just getting water poured on your face, right? Until someone actually experienced it and lasted all of 6 seconds.

The photos or, even better, videos, are all there is to jolt Americans out of their safe, insular apathy and recognize what is being done in their names and at their expense. Not just dollars, but safety, morality, ethics, spot in heaven should they so believe.

And if there is a huge outcry among Americans and a demand that this will not stand, that the perpetrators of these atrocities be held accountable, that we end this travesty sooner rather than later, then that ultimately will be help us to redeems ourselves in the eyes of the world, including the Moslem world.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

172. You really honestly believe that they don't know what happens in those prisons?

You actually believe they can be inflamed any more than they already have? We have slaughtered their people and decimated their country, but these pictures are going to inflame them, huh? Our soldiers have been endangered ever since we occupied Iraq. Who is the fool? One of the more ridiculous posts I have read on this subject so far. These photos need to be released for the people in our country who still support torture and still support the bullshit occupation of Iraq.

[Tempest]

175. You're wasting your time

And all you'll get for your trouble is name calling.

He sincerely believes the Iraqi people are ignorant of the abuse and things will get worse for U.S. soldiers there.

It can't get any worse for Cmdr. Duane G. Wolfe, killed in Fallujah this week by a IED.

[Egnever]

187. We have evidence of exactly what happens when we release these pictures

From the last time we did it. Or do you think the Iraqi people knew less then?

Again a ridiculous argument. The evidence of what will happen is already there.

[Tempest]

190. What evidence are you talking about?

If you're talking about the four contractors who were killed and dragged through the streets of Baghdad, that happened BEFORE any pictures were released.

Where's the evidence? Put up or shut up.

[Egnever]

194. You are a piece of work

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=abu+ghraib+photos&scoring=a&hl=en&ned=us&um=1&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=2004/03&as_hdate=2004/03&lnav=hist2

Theres a google link to a chart of stories about Abhu ghraib photos and heres one for american casualties
Id say the levels of violence show a pretty remarkable similarity wouldn't you?



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm globalsecurity.org

on edits

meh having trouble with the wiki link

[Tempest]

198. You obviously don't understand the concept of a logical fallacy

That must be why you engage in them at an exponentially increasing rate.

[No Elephants]

240. First, a link to three pages of google hits to stories about photos is not

really relevant. This is not about suppressing or releasing stories about photos. It is about releasing photos. So, we'd have to know when the Abu Ghraib photos were released; and I am not going every story google hit to find that out. However, since this most benefits your theory, let's assume the photos were released late in February or early March of 2004.

In your opinion, apparently, the March '04 spike in violence is attributable solely to release of the photos. In your opinion, did the early 04 release of photos also cause the October 04 spike? The June 07 spike? And what else was going on in the world/Iraq and Al Qaeda in the periods leading up to those spikes? If you could prove there had also been a tsunami in March 2004, would you have proven that the release of the photos have caused the tsunami?


Google your theory about Abu Ghraib photos sparking or causing additional violence. You will find that Bushco, the military and, now, Obamadmin have all been trying to sell the proposition that release of the photos MIGHT endanger our troops ever since 2003, when the ACLU first filed the suit for release of the photos. Yet, with all their resources, not a one of them was able to produce any evidence in any court of a causal connection between prior release of the photos and additional danger to the troops. A federal district court judge, who I believe is just as concerned about the troops as you are, saw the photos, heard all evidence was offered by the United States, and ordered release of the photos. That says a lot.

And even now, with all the outcry, all the government and military are claiming that release of additional phots "could" spike additional violence. And they offer zero evidence to support even that weasel wording.

All you posted is a google link to stories, which are not the issue, and a chart of Iraq violence from somewhere that really does not support your claim, let alone prove it. As far as release of the photos causing additional violence among people who already know what happened, that claim is even shakier. Besides, publication of a relatively innocuous cartoon sparked riots around the world against civilians, who were not in armored humvees or even armed. Does that mean everyone in the world should give up free speech? Frankly, I'd rather risk my life. And if that is not the answer of most people, then we've already surrendered.

[No Elephants]

242. Is this the wiki link with which you had trouble? If so, it runs counter

to your point in any number of ways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

[Bluenorthwest]

119. The poster was putting up a straw man

The victims and their families live there. They already know what happened. The fool is the one that thinks sweeping rape under the rug will make the victim's family no longer care about it. The fool is the person who looks at an issue like this and makes hysterical hyperbolic statements, such as the one about handing the photos out on the streets of Bagdad. This is most serious business, and to use rhetorical hyperbole such as that poster spewed is basically an insult to the victims of our military's torture program.
Why a person would think stra wmen and hyperbole are acceptable forms of discussion about rape under the color of authority is something I can only guess at.

[Egnever]

124. No one said anything about sweeping it under the table but you

The straw man is yours. The idea that the release of these photos would not put our kids over there in more danger unnecessarily is ludicrous. The poster was right on target. Prosecution does not require full release3 of the details to the general public. The straw men are all yours.

[Tempest]

126. YOU are the one wanting to sweep it under the rug

By supporting keeping the pictures secret, you are wanting to sweep it under the rug.

You can keep using the "put our soldiers in danger" canard, but it's bullshit. They are already in danger. Or are you saying they'll be in double secret danger?

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

133. So, in effect, you don't believe the German people should have faced up to their atrocities

Why don't you just come right out and say it.

You want it swept under the rug and hope it goes away.

[Egnever]

137. LOL your agruments are a joke.

[Tempest]

139. My "agruments" are valid

You've been called out by others for your personal attacks and strawmen.

[Egnever]

145. Being part of a mob

Doesnt bring you validity

[No Elephants]

262. Neither does being alone.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

134. Once again, your surrender is noted

No sense continuing with a one trick pony like you.

[Egnever]

147. A mirrior is what you need I think

[Bluenorthwest]

135. asking if a person 'wants to be the one to hand the photos out'

implies that the intent is for someone to physically hand the photos out. Straw man. This is about bringing justice to the victims, not about protecting the perps. It is about naming the guilty so that the entire world does not assume our nation and our military to be universally involved in rape and torture.
Your tactics of name calling and personal attacks are just so naff in the context of this subject matter. The hyperbole and aggressive words are signs of a lack of rational points to make. All that noise and tough talk, but what you are arguing from is a place of fear. "If they know what we did, they will want justice." Of course they will, and they already know.
Anyway, the courts will decide about the release, and as Sec Gates says, they will all come out anyway.

[Egnever]

143. No it does not

It puts you in the position of the soldier on that street when those photos come out. Its easy to say release them from the safety of your home. Quite another story when you are the one on the front line that will deal with the fall out from it. That is the point the poster was making and its hardly a straw man.

The posters on this thread are not the ones whose lives will be affected by these photos release. All they care about is their purist pursuit of justice no matter what kind of fallout that pursuit brings. The photos release is not necessary for prosecution to go forward.

I am all for pushing for prosecutions but putting our soldiers there in more danger for no legitimate reason other than the self satisfaction of posters on an internet message board doesn't do it for me. Or perhaps you can explain what legitimate purpose it would serve in carrying prosecutions forward.

[cliffordu]

157. "...Purist pursuit of justice...."

Says it all.


:rofl:

The american people including YOUR CHILDREN need to see what was done in your (and their) name.

The arab world knows exactly what happened.

The MSM here have kept everyone blissfully ignorant of the ugly reality because that doesn't jibe with the "We are Democracy's Christian warriors here to liberate you from your chains..." smoke they've been trying to blow up everyone's ass since Vietnam.

They ought to be a MANDATORY viewing.

And on saturday morning television.

Just like the pictures and films of the concentration camps and the evil that was the NAZIS when I was a kid.

[Egnever]

186. Why?

What purpose exactly does it serve other than rubbing peoples noses in it. I would think having served in the military yourself you would be a little more receptive to the idea that this would cause a backlash not only here in America but also in the Arab world where so many completely innocent soldiers are serving.

This doesn't come close to the level of concentration camps BTW. I am sick of the Hitler argument being used over and over. You lose when that's your rebuttal its an internet rule.

The american people overwhelmingly reject torture. It is not necessary to show these pictures to reinforce that. It would not change the minds of the right wing fucktards they saw the last batch and said it was fraternity pranks what in the world makes you think this batch would be any different?

[cliffordu]

214. If I'd walked into a room and seen my fellow soldiers raping anyone

they'd leave the room in a bag.


"The american people overwhelmingly reject torture. It is not necessary to show these pictures to reinforce that."

And yet NO ONE is rioting for investigations of this.

You need to see the pictures more than anyone I can think of..... You need to see what your loving caring government defends, protects and, as far as I can see, perpetuates.

You need to see what you are minimizing.


And about the NAZI thingy -

I was talking about "The Big Picture" - a series about WWII - it showed the films of the liberation of the camps, with voiceovers that made it plain that we cannot allow that to happen again.

Same same with this whole episode. We need to see what happened ON OUR WATCH and make sure: Never again. The American people need to see exactly what they ignored by settling for FOX and CNN.....

Basically, your opinion on this is irrelevant. They will come out. Prosecutions MUST follow.

We either walk the talk on human rights or we don't. There ain't no middle ground.

[tabasco]

224. It would show the world that the US is serious about admitting our mistakes

and stopping it from happening again. The idea of accountability seems to be beyond your grasp.

I was an infantry soldier for 12 years and would say the same thing if I was patrolling Baghdad this evening.

You don't seem to know much about our military and our enemies.

The government should not be allowed to cover up its fuckups.

The government fucked up and the people have a right to know all the grisly details.

We fucked up when we launched the illegal invasion of Iraq. We fucked up when we allowed criminals to torture prisoners. We fucked up when we sent soldiers on deployment after deployment for years and years. Unless we admit to the extent of our fuckups, we will do it again.

So, why do you support the government covering up its mistakes? That's pretty stupid.

[olegramps]

160. I can think of no stronger message to the troops this is unacceptable.

Perhaps this will wake up the troops that you don't follow illegal orders. Personally I am not in favor of an all volunteer army and this has reinforced my opinion.

[Egnever]

184. So you lump all troops together and want to punish all of them?

I could be persuaded that an all volunteer army has issues. I wont subscribe to the idea that all the soldiers on the front line should be sent a "message" because of the actions of a handful. I also doubt were you the one standing on the front line and had nothing whatsoever to do with those actions that you would welcome that "message" being sent.

[flakban]

217. Here's why...

The photos release is not necessary for prosecution to go forward...

Or perhaps you can explain what legitimate purpose it would serve in carrying prosecutions forward.

Because most Americans receive news from harshly filtered sources (aka the American corporate media). And that's precisely why most Americans have not become appropriately impassioned concerning this unconscionable abomination. It's only through such thorough public awareness that an immense collective message may be sent to key elected officials, urging them to do the right, and legally correct thing. That 'thing' is for AG Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate and indict the perpetrators of these egregious atrocities. Only a full release of these photos can achieve that end. Our nation's corporate media will never assist in this regard, as it would be contrary to their profit and control interests. President Obama prefers that it not occur either. So the only way to make it happen is for enough of the American public to become appropriately disturbed about the horrific abuses, which were done in their name to innocent civilians. In this way a significant proportion of America can be inspired to insist that our leaders adhere to the rule of law with due prosecutions, and that they do so up to the highest Bush official (where applicable).

Should this fail to occur, the door will remain open for future corrupt administrations to do the same horrible things the Bush administration has done. And, like the Bush officials, do these things with full impunity. A precedent needs to be established, and before it's too late. Statutes of limitation for some of the most serious crimes are approaching expiration.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sui generis]

91. define innocent.

You're right, it's not up to the media to "leak" these photos.

What needs to happen, but our numbnuts poor leadership skills president won't do is release the photos, OWN the pictures and apologize.

Make reparations. Instead we're worried about the impact? What kind of irresponsible denial bullshit is that?

[No Elephants]

248. Of course it's up to the media. Pentagon Papers? Government's tendency and

power to conceal most things and spin the rest is exactly why the First Amendment is in our Constitution and is the First Amendment. It is also up to the ACLU to hold government to task. They are both doing what they should, except that the media should have been on this incessantly. Our media has become much too tame, not too bold.

[Doctor_J]

99. I doubt it. The Iraqis already know what happened

These pics don't reveal anything new.

[Egnever]

111. you are right

And the safety of the computer line is right on target. Don't let the purists here get to you.

[Tempest]

116. He was wrong

And the computer line was bullshit.

Now wipe off your chin.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

128. Your surrender is noted

Come back when you can stay on the subject and stop with the strawmen and logical fallacies.

[Egnever]

150. Your projection is amazing!

[JDPriestly]

138. bloomington-lib, We need prosecutions.

The torture was a crime. It violated both American and international law.
It was a crime against humanity.

Think about the history of other such wrongs. Let's take slavery for example. As a nation, we became enlightened enough to recognize that it was wrong and to stop it only after a civil war. We passed three amendments to the Constitution to make sure that slavery was abolished and that all Americans had equal rights to life, liberty and happiness.

But former slaves still did not enjoy equal rights in much of America. At least nominal equality came only after the Supreme Court handed down the Brown v. Board of Education ruling. And even then it did not come over night.

The American Constitution established three "coequal" branches of government. The Congress passes laws and instructs the president on their execution. The president is supposed to implement those laws and manage the various regulatory agencies that implement those laws through setting forth detailed regulations and prosecuting violations of those regulations. The Justice Department prosecutes violations of criminal laws. The third judiciary branch of government interprets the laws and the Supreme Court ultimately, by agreeing or declining to enforce certain laws, determines whether those laws are consistent with the United States Constitution and the values upon which it is based.

Congress has passed laws against torture. The Bush administration argues that they did not have to obey those laws because they were responding to a terrorist threat and using torture was a necessity. It is the responsibility and duty of the judicial branch to interpret the torture laws and decide whether they may be violated and, if so, under what circumstances. (Personally I do not think they can be violated considering how many, many times our Constitution insures the rights of prisoners.)

Until we have a judicial decision stating that torture is or is not acceptable under the circumstances claimed by the Bush administration, we don't really have a law at all, much less a rule of law. Any president will be able to argue that he or she faced a situation of dire necessity, and will justify torture.

This is the time to decide whether the use of torture is consistent with our Constitution and with international law or not. And the only way to do that is to prosecute those who authorized the torture. That is why we need prosecutions.

[No Elephants]

251. We decided about torture when we became party to the Geneva Conventions and, much later, to the UN

Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (to which we became party in 1988). The latter requires us, among ohter things, to prosecute torturers. So, we don't need to decide now about torture. Been there, done that, got the ratifications.

The only thing up for decision now is whether we are a nation that abides by the rule of law, or whether we are officially a rogue, outlaw nation.

[LanternWaste]

228. That shipped sailed a long time ago

"I think leaking the pictures will do more harm than good..."

That shipped sailed a long time ago. Any rage, anger and revenge taken by Iraqis on U.S. service personnel was fueled and fanned a long time ago by our original abuses. That rage and anger has existed for quite some time now.

Any fuel this would add to that preexisting fire would be little more than is already in existence. I certainly don;t think that were a U.S. serviceman to be captured, that this new batch of photos would make things worse for him as he'd already be in a living hell of Bush's making.

[C Stellar]

43. I don't need to see the pictures to understand what I just read.

It's disgusting and embarrassing to the country!!!!:(

[saigon68]

68. "These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency,"

Small boys with flashlights shoved up their rectums

By CIA criminals trying to "Extract" confessions. (From their fathers who were forced to watch)-- Hey sheep read the fucking report already.

And a few people are afraid these Photos will be used to "harm the troops"

I'm sure this has nothing at all to do with it.

[bdamomma]

90. I'm sure that Cheney and Rumsfeld gave their Ok to do these heinous crimes on people.

[depakid]

109. Right on

It amazes me that some people are falling for this ruse.

Obama über alles, I guess.

[Butch350]

83. A few people I know want..

* A Job
* Health Insurance
* Their money back in their 401k
* Money to send their kid to college

Haven't run into anyone yet wanting to engage in voyrism?

[Bluenorthwest]

123. So they want stuff for themselves

and don't care what was done to others in their names. That is not something to be proud of, that is in fact our national shame. Greed and hubris above decency and justice.
Hope your pals get all the stuff they want! And then more stuff! Stuff is what it is all about!

Tell me, would your greedy pals feel the same about justice if it were their daughter raped by the Iraqi army? Of course not.

[dipsydoodle]

104. Best thing that could happen

Only when they have all come to light and the culrits punished will everyone be able to move ahead. That's far better than them leaking over a long period of time.

[marshall]

149. And if US soldiers die as a result, so be it

It's called a quagmire.

[Lost-in-FL]

213. And with the pictures, release some more Mohammed cartoons too. nt

[DutchLiberal]

221. Not gonna happen. Not in a million years. Get used to it.

[cliffordu]

232. The pentagon papers puncture your posit.

bogus as it was.

[DutchLiberal]

239. Who went to prison? Nobody ever goes to prison.

Except maybe for some small fries. The big ones, the ones who gave the orders, always get away. Especially U.S. presidents.

[KansDem]

2. From UK's "Telegraph"

Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

Photographs of alleged prisoner abuse which Barack Obama is attempting to censor include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse, it has emerged.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

In April, Mr Obama’s administration said the photographs would be released and it would be “pointless to appeal” against a court judgment in favour of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

But after lobbying from senior military figures, Mr Obama changed his mind saying they could put the safety of troops at risk.

Earlier this month, he said: “The most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to inflame anti-American public opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.”

It was thought the images were similar to those leaked five years ago, which showed naked and bloody prisoners being intimidated by dogs, dragged around on a leash, piled into a human pyramid and hooded and attached to wires.

Mr Obama seemed to reinforce that view by adding: “I want to emphasise that these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib.”

The latest photographs relate to 400 cases of alleged abuse between 2001 and 2005 in Abu Ghraib and six other prisons. Mr Obama said the individuals involved had been “identified, and appropriate actions” taken.

Maj Gen Taguba’s internal inquiry into the abuse at Abu Ghraib, included sworn statements by 13 detainees, which, he said in the report, he found “credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses.”

Among the graphic statements, which were later released under US freedom of information laws, is that of Kasim Mehaddi Hilas in which he says: “I saw ******* a kid, his age would be about 15 to 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw who was wearing the military uniform, putting his **** in the little kid’s ***…. and the female soldier was taking pictures.”

Telegraph

Sick fucks.

Make the photos public...

[defendandprotect]

33. The more I hear about them the more I see a need for their release . . .

and for the prosecution of those who gave these orders -- from the highest levels.

[Amonester]

34. I hope the "who" who was wearing the military uniform was not a...

Christian (and that the female soldier who was taking pictures too)

Their CIC claimed to be one (but he was/and still ain't a real one), were they? :cry:

[Bluenorthwest]

84. What's a Christian kiddo?

In the Bible, Jesus himself says that our treatment of prisoners is in fact our treatment of Jesus himself. He says " I was in prison, and you..."
He says those folks will greet him with a hearty "Lord, my Lord," yet he will not know them. For He was in prison, and they raped him.
So they can proclaim all they'd like. Those who cover this up are also invited to shout as loud as they can that they are Christians, shout all day long for all I care. Shouting will not change the sheets, the bloody sheets where the Christ was tortured.
How's that for you?

[Bluenorthwest]

82. Not particularly sensational...

Rape under color of authority.

[earcandle]

199. I can't stop crying.

[truth2power]

4. I want the photos released and EVERY adult American FORCED

to view them. Just like the Germans were forced to view the concentration camps.

[catnhatnh]

7. What you said......N/T

[shanti]

19. i don't wish to see them

images like this burn into the brain. the descriptions are bad enough. also, everybody saw the first set, we know what happened...

what really stuns me is the mentality of their AMERICAN abusers, and the women who are just as involved as the men! :(

[defendandprotect]

35. You're comaring the "first set" of photos with these pictures of rape of youths??

I think Americans need a very loud wake-up call --

especially after reading your comments --


:eyes:

[shanti]

233. wtf?

where did you come to this conclusion? i SAID i personally don't want to see them! that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be revealed!

:eyes: get over yourself!

[Bluenorthwest]

85. Why disturb your beautiful mind?

Such a stance might be acceptable if you were demanding that justice be done. Instead of claiming to be stunned and burned, which by the way the victims were. Stunned and burned.

[snooper2]

179. Yep, amazing- People should be prosecuted...

But you have a chorus here wanting everyone - Man Woman and Child - to have pictures of a teenager getting fisted up the ass...

Some sick shit if you ask me

[No Elephants]

252. You don't see a connection between release of the pictures and public awareness of this matter? You

don't see a connection between public awareness and prosecution? Public awareness and how war is viewed in the future? Public awareness and the First Amendment? What do you think the purpose of the First Amendment is? Do you believe the American CIVIL LIBERTIES Union sued over this because members want to get off?

[cliffordu]

25. Now you're talking. Perfect.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

27. Those who refuse to prosecute the people responsible

would probably get a thrill out of seeing them. :(

[No Elephants]

59. You mean President Obama and Eric Holder? I don't believe that.

[saigon68]

69. The DLC crowd does not want to "stir up the sheep"

Support the troops--my ass.

And the good general saying we will be there 10 more years (with the apparent blessing of the president.)

Unreal.

[No Elephants]

253. IMO, we will always be there. We've been told as much, with all those analogies to Japan, where

post WWII occupation continues. We did not build that fortress of an embassy for a short stay, nor are we about to build another fortress of an embassy in Afghanistan for a short stay.

"Wake up America." Dennis Kucinich, Democratic National Convention, Denver, 2008

[kiranon]

28. Agree, The war has been sanitized. Americans need to see what has been done in

their name.

[No Elephants]

60. Until Dummya, a war was the lead story in every newcast and newspaper every day.

[Butch350]

102. My friend - no war is pretty.

[No Elephants]

241. As to this particular war, though, the government and the media have cooperated in

keeping the war out of the news as much as possible. And when it does show up, it's often some emotionally manipulative, "heartwarming" story. It's not seeing people getting blown up on the news every evening, or photos of the coffins (except when Obama finally lifted the ban) or the death and casualty counts, etc. And those would be only our counts. Nobody even bothers keep track of the Iraqis killed, wounded and turned into refugees since the invasion. This particular war has been both obscured and prettified for the American public in a way, and to an extent, that no war before it was.

[defendandprotect]

36. Agree - -

[demigoddess]

196. I think at minimum we should force military men to view them at the same time

we drill into them all the provisions of the Geneva Convention and its consequences.

[CoffeeCat]

5. Why aren't those in the pictures being jailed???

I understand (but don't agree with) the reasoning behind keeping the photos out of the public eye.

What I do not understand is covering up the crimes.

What I do not understand is how we can have pictures (evidence!) of rape, and the sexual abuse of children, and
no one is held accountable.

You don't want to release the photos? Fine, I get that.

You want rapists and child sex torturers and sexual abusers to walk the streets and never pay for those crimes.

I sure as hell don't get that, and I NEVER will!

[frog92969]

10. Maybe...

by condoning it (allowing it to go unpunished IS condoning it) they're trying
to send us the message that we could be next.

Maybe

[defendandprotect]

37. That's actually what they say about torture...intended to frighten citizens . ..

and keep them from living in fear of the same thing happening to them.

[frog92969]

45. "1984"

But also "Brave New World"

They're hitting us from both directions,
knowing few will escape both.

[defendandprotect]

51. People who want control over others are diligent in that pursuit ...

and, IMO, it is secrecy which gives them power.
Not until we get all the secrets out will we destroy their power.

[No Elephants]

246. About ten years ago, I commented to someone with whom I had gone to college...

"We used to debate whether the future would be more like 1984 or Brave New World. It turned out to be most like Clockwork Orange."

There are elements of all three, to be sure, but the brutality is stunning.

[Bluenorthwest]

86. That is correct

They are saying, you kids are next if you mess with us.
If nothing else, we know that Obama and Holder wish to release these rapists freely into our communities, without warning or protection for the local people. They have said they wish to do that. None of us should ever know who did what, and they should all just come home and work at Day Care Centers and old folks homes.

[frog92969]

193. The irony burns!

These are KNOWN terrorists by evidence they supplied themselves.
But the ACCUSED (most falsely) terrorists are too dangerous to even hold in our prisons
just because they have funny names.

We've seen this movie before but history seems to be a lost art.
Our country is dying from the inside and nobody in power seems to want to stop it.

[demwing]

195. If you really believe that Obama wants rapists to work in Day Care Centers

you should stop taking the drugs you are currently on and immediately get something better.

[No Elephants]

254. What will prevent them from working in day care centers after release into

the civilian population? Or in schools? Will they be on any sexual offenders' list? As far as I know, no precautions at all are being taken as to known rapists, murderers and perhaps (if the report is accurate) child rapists.

These are not only war crimes, they are civilian crimes, too. The criminals are being protected with reckless disregard of the consequences that may follow from protecting them. In criminal law, reckless disregard equals criminal intent--and the standards of criminal law are more protective of the criminal than any other standards in our society. I'd say the folks in charge of protecting us, like Obama and Holder, are acting with reckless disregard.

[saigon68]

71. Because Obama and his handlers Emmaul etc

Don't want to rock the corporate boat.

Pursuing the CIA and its agents of terra is bad for business and will distract the sheep from applying for more credit cards.

[truth2power]

75. I think you're right. It's just that crass. And Obama is complicit...

Does anyone here actually believe the people of Iraq don't know what went on? Up close and personal, I might add.

Those who would harm us already know what we've done. So, that canard about it "harming the troops" is BS on stilts. Our government, and that includes Obama, he being part of the Government and all, don't want the American people to see what's been done in their name, because it's too hideous. Because then they might actually have to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

And because plenty of Dems would be caught up in that net, too. Well, as far as I'm concerned, I don't care if they're Dems, Repugs, I don't care if it's the Queen of England...round them up and make them stand trial.

:mad:



edit> Oh, and as I've said here over and over....It wasn't about getting information. Cheney, Rummy and Bush are sexual perverts.

[Mermaid7]

95. I think you hit the nail right on the head.

"Because then they might actually have to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. "

And this might interfer or distract from the current agenda.

[Lorien]

97. Exactly. They don't want America waking up

and demanding justice and withdrawal from Iraq.

[saigon68]

234. I agree w/ you Cheney, Rummy and Bush are sexual perverts

I think this ass-clown is too.

[Hissyspit]

8. Wait, we were told they were just more of the same here by people

who hadn't actually seen the photos because they haven't been released which they shouldn't because they're just more of the same according to people who haven't actually seen them because they shouldn't because they're just more of the same according to...

[shadowknows69]

13. According to our President

[Hissyspit]

23. In other words, they haven't seen them.

[defendandprotect]

52. Some here have very poor instincts re truth ....

takes them a long time to recognize what is really going on --

and often then don't get it--!

However, many at DU are to be complimented for their insights and early warnings.

:)

[Moochy]

108. That seems to be a required trait

for being a successful DLC-Du'er: The poker face when delivering the partisan lie.

[defendandprotect]

211. The DLC influence here

is why I give only minimal amounts during fundraisers.

[PSPS]

15. Get used to this under U-bama

President Milquetoast.

[No Elephants]

256. Another RW sentiment.

[AlphaCentauri]

16. I have 2 questions

Is this how Lynndie England got pregnant?

The service people who took the pictures, did they do it to have a record of their mission and the good job they were doing or they just took those pictures to show what they were force to do?

[shadowknows69]

17. Every smart criminal has leverage on someone else

England et al probably mistakenly thought we would go after the assholes making the policy if they were caught. They forgot that they were the serfs and that the Lord of the Estate doesn't do time.

[No Elephants]

255. I doubt they were forced to torture. The grins, the thumbs up.

[peacetalksforall]

20. SIX other prisons - did you get that? SIX. SEX. SIC. This country is sick.

I am so ashamed of this country.

What has Pres. Obama said that fulfills his words about stopping torture? Where do we stand?

I think Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush should be detained until we get the story. AND RICE and POWELL - the contractors reported to the State Dept.

Did medical doctors, psychiatrists, and psychologists monitor the torment and torture of rape and sex?

What imbecilic children. All the stories we have heard from veterans about not using torture and being known for not torturing war prisoners in WW2 is wasted ... WASTED .... because of this generation of fools leaders. George. Dick, and Don and the brass who arranged it are all sick.

I heard more of those stories from WW2 on this past Sunday.

Add in the female soldiers who are being harassed, raped, tormented, and dead.

[defendandprotect]

38. Me, too --

And how in the hell does it look to the world that we are hiding more of this stuff --

That Americans can't face the truth?

That we need to be protected from seeing what our President/VP/Rumseld did?

And, most of all that Americans are not going to demand accountability of a President

who ordered this disgusting and cruel behavior and involved our troops and medical people

in carrying out these disgusting orders!!!

How pitiful the American public will look to other citizens around the world!!!

[bdamomma]

92. sickening what is being done in our name, and they keep

it away from us, damn them, and there is no way that these SOB's from the Bush Regime should be walking around free. Cheney and the rest of his cabal are not above the law. Just makes me sick.

[Raksha]

204. Yeah, I got that about the SIX OTHER PRISONS. I got that right away.

And I don't KNOW that the abuse has been stopped at those six other prisons. I'm unwilling to take Obama's word for it that the perpetrators have been dealt with. It smacks too much of "nothing to see here, move along."

I don't especially want to see the pictures, but I want PROOF that this horrendous abuse is a thing of the past, and that ALL the perpetrators including Cheney and Bush will be dealt with, if they haven't been already. All the way up the chain of command to the very top, both the sins of commission and the sins of omission. The way the Obama administration is handling this just reeks of cover-up, which is a crime in itself.

[defendandprotect]

212. It's been Democrats' wars since '06 -- and now torture is ours --

and Obama is now moving into even more frightening realms of arrest and detainment!!!

WTF? GOP Dictatorship, Part II????

I think Obama is making himself abundantly clear -- and it's not good.

Some chance I'm misreading all of this garbage?

[chill_wind]

29. "Not particularly sensational", President Obama said. And just a few bad apples.

http://obama.wsj.com/quote/0gEWadI0VZdwg?q=Barack+Obama




"A small number of individuals." Just a few bad apples, and they've been dealt with.

He said the photos had already served their purpose in investigations of "a small number of individuals." Those cases were all concluded by 2004, and the President said "the individuals who were involved have been identified, and appropriate actions have been taken."

(...)

Obama said, "I want to emphasise that these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib."

http://www.zeenews.com/news531589.html

You know, I must have missed the trials and explicit media coverage of the "actions taken" against the individuals who were raping prisoners at Abu Ghraib. I want to know their names. I want their pictures on the front page of every American newspaper.

[defendandprotect]

39. That's really sad . ..

in other words, so as not to inconvenience himself -- or to please the Pentagon --

he's lied to us.

This is getting sadder and sadder every day in every way!!!

[flakban]

49. There's absolutely no justification for the coverup effort...

He said the photos had already served their purpose in investigations of "a small number of individuals." Those cases were all concluded by 2004, and the President said "the individuals who were involved have been identified, and appropriate actions have been taken."

(...)

Obama said, "I want to emphasise that these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib."

He also said "no one is above the law." And "words must mean something." Yet Mr. Obama's very words in this regard appear to mean nothing as he facilitates above-the-law status for the top level Bush officials who ordered these repugnant acts. There can be no excuses for the actions of the Bush criminals. Nor can there be excuses for Mr. Obama's role in concealment and obstruction of justice in this matter.

[Wednesdays]

30. K&R

:kick:

[leftstreet]

31. "a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube" WE'RE NUMBER ONE!!!1111

At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

America, Fuck Yeah!!

:puke:

[chill_wind]

42. Taguba Report: "Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light

and perhaps a broom stick."

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html

[defendandprotect]

41. Thank you, General Antonio Taguba -- a man who tried to do an honest investigation--!!!

And he was stopped -- and I imagine that when he knew the Congress had seen

all of this evidence that they would stop it -- and they didn't.

And, now perhaps his hopes have turned to the courts who are trying to release

this information to ensure that the public sees all of it -- and that has

been blocked by our new president.

The reason they are not releasing these photos/film is because they understand

what the consequences will be for government and those who have done nothing about

all of this -- but sit on the evidence and try to bury it ---

while also protecting those who ordered this filth to happen!!!

[Hulk]

44. Just great!....and meanwhile we are sitting around debating whether "water boarding" is torture...

This is what I mean by this whole insane subject. The scum-sucking bottom feeder, cheney and his spawn, come on TV debating whether water boarding is torture or "enhanced interrogation", whether it made us safer, whether we got any information that was reliable or even on subject....and meanwhile, some ONE HUNDRED persons in our custody F*CKING DIED...and these string of pictures.

WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT WATER BOARDING IS TORTURE OR NOT???? Have we lost our f*cking minds?? Wake up America!! Please don't show the world how damn dumbed down we are. "Did Pelosi know?" WHO GIVES A RAT'S RUSTY ASS?? It doesn't matter!!

We ARE GUILTY, and I want the sons of bitches prosecuted, right up the ladder to old grandfather-f*ck himself!!

[defendandprotect]

54. Right . . . it's always been torture -- Spanish Inquisition . . .

suddenly, it's debatable and has to not only be explained but experienced by

idiots who don't get it!!!

Can you imagine if this had happened in some other country where leaders did

anything like this and the citizens were sitting around passively doing nothing

as we all are???

What must they think of Americans at this point???

[bdamomma]

93. they are thinking how gutless we are.

[No Elephants]

257. And therefore you have made a sacrificially large donation to the ACLU for this purpose, I hope.

[IndianaGreen]

47. It was better to release all the photos at once, and weather the storm

than to endure the endless drip-drip that we have to go through now.

[frog92969]

48. These pictures will come out

but now they'll be known as the pictures Obama tried to hide.

[IndianaGreen]

50. It will be known as a coverup

Prosecution of war criminals is a must!

[redqueen]

107. That's what I tell everyone I contact about this issue.

They are perceived as participating in a coverup of some of the most horrible crimes imaginable.

[grahamhgreen]

55. TheTorturer Movie - Coming Fall 2009

[Hubert Flottz]

62. Oh Hell...

They probably "only" raped three people! 280 times?

[quidam56]

64. If we hadn't done it there would be no pictures.

If we don't do anything, we will end up looking like a bunch of fools, This is America Goddamn it ! Arrest the torturers before Spain or Germany do.

[JohnyCanuck]

67. K&R n/t

[pjt7]

70. America DOES NOT need the pictures leaked

We need to raise the bar w/ our morality, as a whole in our society.

People do need to be prosectuted for this. Obviously. Period.

I hope Holder has a press conference & follows THRU.

[Bluenorthwest]

89. "our morality"? Go take a flying leap!

This attempt from the rationalizers to smear all of us with the vile actions of criminals we seek to being to justice, to paint us all with the cowardice and soul death of those who would cover up rape is one hell of a disgusting tactic.
To imply that we are all like these rapists and killers you wish to protect serves the guilty. Fuck you. My morality is just fine, buddy boy. I'm not some liar Christian spouting against minorities and defending rapists, that is your President doing that. I'm doing the opposite, as many here are and have been doing at great personal cost for many long years now.
Your cheap tactic will not work. The guilty and those who cover for them are culpable, not some magic collective of America. Crimes are committed every day, and daily we stand in judgment of the guilty.

[KansDem]

171. Hear! Hear!

I find a parallel between Catholic priests who raped boys while the upper echelons of the Catholic Church looked the other way, and US military "torturers" who raped boys while the upper echelons of American government look the other way.

In both cases, the perpetrators and those complicit to the crimes need to be tired and, if found guilty, imprisoned for a very long time...

[Tempest]

192. Great comparison

And completely accurate.

[Moochy]

103. We must raise our morality bar by lying about whats in the pictures and hiding evidence!

a different, more opaque kind of transparency.

[KansDem]

168. The pictures need to be seen...

Otherwise there will be another Warren/Iran-Contra/9.11/Iraq War commission to "find the answers." Then watch for the price of white paint to soar...

[No Elephants]

258. Obama has made it crystal clear that he does not want to prosecute, so how are YOU

going to force the POTUS to change his mind? Please see Reply #252.

[Joanne98]

72. Release them!

[Psychic Consortium]

73. The pictures will come out, the truth will be known. nt

[mnmoderatedem]

74. "include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse"

gives new meaning to "don't ask don't tell"

[No Elephants]

260. What on earth does DADT have to do with sexual abuse and/or rape of prisoners?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

76. This slow trickling out of information

with word descriptions rather than the photos is actually worse than releasing the photos, imho. It keeps the issue alive, and creates, in the mind's eye, mental pictures that may be even more disturbing than the actual photos themselves. Obama should release them, and say this will never happen again, and then support legislation to make sure that no future President is allowed to let torture happen.

[OnyxCollie]

79. "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it,

people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the state can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie... The truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the state." --Joseph Goebbels, minister of propaganda in Nazi Germany, 1933-1945.

Blinders off. Release the pictures.

[BlueJessamine]

80. I wonder if any of the pictures show Soldier Number Nine?

Soldier Number Nine was a guard who specialized in raping prisoners:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x451847

[pleah]

87. K&R

[bdamomma]

88. all this evidence will come out and bite us back, if we do not

hold these thugs accountable for their crimes.

[Postman]

96. Not releasing the photos SANITIZES WAR and the AMERICAN IMAGE.

[tomm2thumbs]

98. I wonder if they are starting to leak details because the court is going to release the actual pix

trying to start the faucet slowly so they can mitigate the damage - but I bet it won't make much difference if what we hear translates to the pictures. it will still be horrific and do incredible damage to the previous administration, right up to bush cheney

[Raksha]

197. It sure looks that way.

Re I wonder if they are starting to leak details because the court is going to release the actual pix
trying to start the faucet slowly so they can mitigate the damage.

The way this story has been leaking out bit by bit definitely reeks of damage control--or someone's lame attempt at it anyway. I think the effort will be futile in the end...there is gonna be a major shitstorm no matter what.

[No Elephants]

263. I doubt Roberts, Scalia, Thomas or Alito are going to vote that the

U.S. government must release photos of torture that went on under President Bush. Dummya appointed two of them. His Daddy appointed the other two; and all four much prefer the government to the ACLU. It will come down to Stevens (if he is still alive and able), Ginsburg (ditto), Breyer, Kennedy and either Souter or Sotomayor. If Sotomayor is on the Court by then, I doubt she will vote against Obama. So, I guess I hope she does not get confirmed right away, but she probably will. sigh.

[Papa Boule]

100. If the photos are released or leaked I expect the right will make our heads spin again

by shifting the markers of right and wrong again. They've already shifted them to rationalize waterboarding. I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to rationalize punitive rape.

And if there are no children in the photos, they'll rationalize it wasn't as bad as people said because the only victims were bad adults who deserved it. Or they'll paint another ticking time bomb scenario and say it's necessary to save American lives.

I don't know how they'll be able to keep their own heads from spinning so badly they just fall off.

Incidentally the photos will still have to be released or leaked for them to believe it or admit it. Otherwise they'll keep denying. No matter how many credible witnesses there are, without pictures, in their world view it didn't happen.

[PainPerdu]

113. Show and tell?

And WHY were photographs TAKEN in the FIRST place?

WHY document torture?

To send to the TOP BRASS in DC?

"You're doing a heckuva job!"(Snark..)

[Papa Boule]

142. "WHY were photographs TAKEN in the FIRST place?"

My guess is it's the same reason the Nazis meticulously documented their atrocities. Reducing the horrendous to a banal bureaucratic exercise--like record keeping--sanitizes it and somehow legitimizes it. "It must not be so bad because, look, we're keeping official-type records of it." And record keeping reinforces the Milgram response--"It must be okay because an authority ordered or sanctioned it." No matter how bad the deed, the one doing it feels "good" and feels sure to be appreciated because he or she is loyally and obediently following instructions, whether specific or interpolated and presumed.

[No Elephants]

259. Who gives a rat's rectum what the Right rationalizes? That way lies insanity, not to mention

moral bankruptcy.

[redqueen]

101. "these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational"

*in this case*

Is anyone here very familiar with the case he's talking about? Have the attorneys requested only certain photographs?


He can't be talking about pictures of rape.

[flakban]

106. Those are very good questions...

Is anyone here very familiar with the case he's talking about? Have the attorneys requested only certain photographs?


He can't be talking about pictures of rape.

Especially if the victims in them are children! My guess if he was talking about such photos, he'll simply deny it and claim he wasn't. This is egregious.

[No Elephants]

244. He can't be talking about pictures of

rape? Why not?



Senator Lindsey Graham (Republican, South Carolina): "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here."<34> "It was pretty disgusting, not what you'd expect from Americans", said Senator Norm Coleman.<35> "I don't know how the hell these people got into our army", said Colorado Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell.<36>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse


That would be Lindsey Graham, one of the biggest Republican loyalists and apologists in the entire nation, in or out of office, discussing the conduct of the American military under a Republican CIC. Ditto Republican("converted" from Democrat in 1995) Campbell. I trust Republican Norm Coleman needs no introduction here. If I am wrong, please google DU for any Al Franken thread.

[flakban]

271. The poster said since Mr. Obama stated the photos he blocked "are not particularly sensational"...

how could he have been referring to pictures of rape? I then replied in agreement, and I added: especially if the victims being raped in the photos were children. I further expressed that, if/when confronted about what he said, Mr. Obama may simply deny he was talking about those specific photos.

I hope my clarification is adequate.

[chill_wind]

112. THIS case. The ACLU's long-running FOIA case:

21 specific photographs plus some others cited. They (Obama DOJ) made a decision in April to finally comply.

They were to be released to the ACLU by May 28:

http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/letter_singh_20090423.pdf

The DOD and CIA got President Obama to change his mind:

ACLU v. DOD - Government Letter to District Court Reversing Position on Torture Photos (5/13/2009)

http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/torturephoto_reversal_letter_20090513.pdf

Everything related to the history of this litigation is here:



Documents Relating to Abuse Photographs

> ACLU memo in support of first motion for partial summary judgment (1/13/2005)
> District court opinion and order denying application by CIA for stay of FOIA obligations (2/2/2005)
> CIA / DOD brief in opposition to ACLU first motion for partial summary judgment and in support of cross-motion (3/30/2005)
- Declaration of Geoffrey S. Corn
- Declaration of Edward Cummings
- Declaration of Charles A. Allen
- Declaration of Diane Beaver
- Declaration of Stewart Aly
- Declaration of Marilyn A. Dorn
> ACLU reply in support of first motion for partial summary judgment and opposition to CIA / DOD cross-motion (4/28/2005)
- Declaration of Marco Sassoli
- Declaration of Scott Horton
> CIA / DOD reply in support of cross-motion (5/19/2005)
- Third Declaration of Stewart Aly
- Second Declaration of Michael Seidel
> District court order granting ACLU first motion for partial summary judgment and ordering release of abuse photographs (6/1/2005)
> DOD supplemental brief in opposition to first ACLU motion for partial summary judgment (7/22/2005)
- Declaration of General Richard B. Myers (redacted)
- Declaration of Ronald Schlicher (redacted)
- Declaration of Philip J. McGuire (redacted)
> ACLU supplemental brief in support of first motion for partial summary judgment (8/3/2005)
- Declaration of Michael Pheneger
> ACLU motion to vacate protective order (8/3/2005)
- amicus brief of Reporters' Committee for Freedom of the Press (8/3/2005)
> DOD reply in further opposition to first ACLU motion for partial summary judgment (8/10/2005)
- supplemental declaration of General Richard B. Myers
> ACLU reply in further support of first motion for partial summary judgment (8/12/2005)
- Declaration of Khaled Fahmy
- Second Amended Declaration of General Richard B. Myers (filed 08/29/05)
- Declaration of Ronald Schlicher (filed 08/29/05)
> District court opinion ordering release of abuse photographs and rejecting CIA's "Glomar" exemption with respect to one document (9/29/2005)
> District court order denying DOD motion for reconsideration of 09/29/05 order (11/2/2005)
> District court order denying DOD relief from of 09/29/05 order (12/19/2005)
> DOD appeal brief concerning abuse photographs (6/9/2006)
> District court supplemental order requiring release of abuse photographs (6/21/2006)
> ACLU appeal brief concerning abuse photographs (9/7/2006)
- amicus brief of National Security Archive (9/14/2006)
- amicus brief of Reporters' Committee for Freedom of the Press (9/13/2006)
- photo appendix of Reporters' Committee brief (9/13/2006)
- amicus brief of New York City Bar Association (9/14/2006)
- amicus brief of Professors of Law of Armed Conflict (9/14/2006)
> Second Circuit decision affirming order requiring DOD to release abuse photographs (9/22/2008)
> Second Circuit order denying DOD's petition for rehearing en banc (3/9/2009)
> Government's Letter to Second Circuit Regarding Anticipated Release of Torture Photos (4/23/09)
> Government's Letter to District Court Reversing Position on Torture Photos (5/13/09)

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/legaldocuments/index.html

[redqueen]

118. Thanks. Why are the plaintiffs only asking for certain photos to be released?

Are we certain that the pictures showing rape are being requested for this case?

[Tempest]

146. I believe those were the only ones they specifically knew of

I'm sure they will file a new lawsuit to have the others released now they're aware of them.

[redqueen]

148. Impossible. Lindsey Graham is on record

talking about evidence of rape and murder, back in 2004. So they've known for at least five years.

[Tempest]

151. Not about the pictures

That is a recent revelation.

[redqueen]

152. Are you joking? Sy Hersh talked about tape of it back then too.

There are no recent revelations about this issue.

Other than Obama's reversal... that counts as one.

[Tempest]

163. Provide links to U.S. MSM where Hersh is used as a source

There has been a virtual blackout on the Iraq atrocities by the MSM.

[redqueen]

167. So the ACLU dismisses things if they're not covered in the M$M?

And they won't bother investigating claims made by reliable sources ... unless those claims are covered in the M$M?

Is that what you're saying?

[Tempest]

173. You're off the track

You can't file a lawsuit requesting something you don't know exists, unless you want a summary judgement against you.

You file on what you do know to exist, or have information that points to the existence of. The ACLU filed the lawsuit based upon the leaked pictures from three years ago.

Unless my reading of the lawsuit is completely wrong.

[redqueen]

176. Wouldn't Hersh's comments

count as information that points to the existence of such photos and tapes?

Thanks for trying to explain this to me. I can be hard headed I know.

[Tempest]

178. Third party hearsay

Not something you want to base a lawsuit on.

[redqueen]

200. Gotcha...

thanks.

[No Elephants]

264. Lindsey Graham was commenting on Rumsfeld's testimony. Rumseld's saying something happened

does not mean there is a photo of it. But, I am wondering why you think the ACLU requested only some pictures. Do you have a specific quote to that effect?

[chill_wind]

159. I suspect they are among ones referenced in the Taguba report

but were withheld from the report itself.

Due to the extremely sensitive nature of these photographs and videos, the ongoing CID investigation, and the potential for the criminal prosecution of several suspects, the photographic evidence is not included in the body of my investigation.

source: http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html

Taguba reportedly confirms their existence and their specific nature, along with his agreement with Prez Obama to withhold them:

"Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it

see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5733033

There is more at this thread. Including my same link to the Taguba report, which confirms among many things

"Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick."

"A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee".

[redqueen]

169. That seems like just more reason for the ACLU to demand *those* pictures.

I wonder if they did, and if not, why.

[chill_wind]

215. Taguba quotes seem to confirm that is the case-- they are among the FOIA request.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html

[redqueen]

218. That's from the recent article though.

The ACLU case is old. I'm still not convinced the pics they requested include the ones described in this article.

If they didn't, I guess I do understand why... because Hersh's comments and those made by members of Congress are still just heresay.

[chill_wind]

227. The ACLU case is several yrs old. The Taguba Report is older, though.

Maybe the ACLU was or wasn't explicitly going after a particular nature of photos, but simply any/all photos it knew the Taguba report had withheld, the ACLU and others going after them as part of the ongoing case-building for war crimes prosecutions.

All I can do is keep making the point that the Taguba report (2004) confims outright some of these rape crimes and also states it withheld pictures described as being so graphic and so sensitive, and also on the grounds of other criminal investigations by the military at the time. It makes sense to me that once the other legal restraints of any other mil investigations were concluded and out of the way, the ACLU went after the photos (2005) it knew existed from the Taguba disclosures and whatever other sources they deemed reliable. The sequence of action makes sense and the most recent Taguba quotes seem to bear out the continuity of the claims in the report and that some of the photos that include rape are_among the FOIA requested files still being withheld. He clearly says to the UK Telegraph that they are. You can choose to believe the quotes or remain skeptical. Until he himself were to refute the Telegraph, I'm inclined to believe they are part of what is being withheld. He is directly quoted as saying so, while supporting Prez Obama's decision to withhold their release.

[No Elephants]

265. There's no mystery. Everything is at the ACLU website.

[No Elephants]

261. Maybe you need to read the OP again.

"Photographs of Iraqi prisoner abuse which U.S. President Barack Obama does not want released include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse, Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper reported on Thursday.

The images are among photographs included in a 2004 report into prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison conducted by U.S. Major General Antonio Taguba."

Either the Daily Telegraph and General Taguba are mistaken, or Obama is talking about pictures that include rape and other forms of sexual abuse (and probably murder).

[Douglas Carpenter]

105. kick and recommended for the truth !!!!

[gorfle]

110. This is why waterboarding has been so hot lately.

This is why waterboarding has been so hot lately. Let everyone get all outraged about that instead.

'Cause if the people knew about the OTHER shit that went on, like rape (of both male and female prisoners), sodomy (fucking people with a goddamn fluorescent light bulb and billy clubs), they would be going absolutely ape shit.

[Egnever]

115. Of course they do

Why are so many on this thread acting surprised by this?

[PainPerdu]

122. Privacy Issues

Agreed.

But then, where was the outrage over the refusal of the Bush regime's decision to disallow showin flag draped coffins of fallen soldiers returning form Iraq-on the "justification" it waould be an invasion of privacy?

I submit that "invasion of privacy" takes on a WHOLE new paradigm considering the INTENTIONAL indignities visited upon these Iraqis...like a flouresent tube inserted into your private parts.

Now that's an invasion of a most personal space,imho.

[KillCapitalism]

117. Obama will do nothing.

Hypothetical conversation between Bush and Obama:

Bush: Barack, you'd never release them photos of all that bad stuff we had done to those terrists would ya?

Obama: Of course not George, there's nothing wrong with any of it, besides they probably got what they deserved.

Bush: That's the spirit, I always knew you and me were more alike than not!

[No Elephants]

269. Sadly, you may be

correct about being more alike than not, but I hope not.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Tires]

141. i would like to see the GOP apologists try to excuse forced sodomy as standard procedure...

[PainPerdu]

162. Interesting adjective

Now if you had left "forced" out of the phrase "forced sodomy",indeed many in the GOP WOULD consider that standard operating procedure; and ,would consider there to be no need for ANY apology,whatsoever.

[Bryn]

154. Why were the pictures taken ??

Did Cheney order to have pictures taken of torture/sex abuse/porno/ for his own gratification? I wonder how in the world those abusing/killing/raping, etc. would agree to be photographed? This is very sick, the whole thing. I will never look at American soldier the same way and wonder. Truth needs to be told. Ugly and all should be exposed.

[PainPerdu]

161. Deja vue

See posts #113 and #142 above.

Ahem,were we not REPEATEDLY told that the US does NOT torture?

Oh,what's that you say?

I see, subcontract it to another country's torturers to do the dirty work,instead....kinda like the torture ships-Google that sometime.

I guess the pix were to prove they had fulfilled the torture contract so they could get paid.

[Bryn]

174. I posted too quickly

See posts #113 and #142 above.

Yes, I saw those after I posted. I posted too quickly before reading more replies. Thanks :)

[olegramps]

155. The Generals only want to bury their heinous misdeeds.

The very people who share the primary responsibility for the abuse of prisoners under their jurisdiction have appealed to President Obama not to release evidence of their cooperation with the most evil administration in the history of the nation on the specious argument that it would endanger our soldiers.

They are the ones who are guilty of not refusing to cooperate with Cheney. They are the ones who cooperated with his pack of sadists and ordered our troops to commit atrocities and now want their dirty handiwork to be obscured from public review. They are the very ones who are responsible for putting our troops in danger because they didn’t have the moral fiber to refuse to cooperate and were willing to allow those under their command to be transformed into sadistic torturers. They were more than willing to assist these vultures to gain another star on their shoulders. I have absolutely no respect for those such as General Petraeus and his ilk who are nothing more than a kiss-ass spineless opportunists.

This ruse has nothing to do with the protection of our troops. It in fact enables the Islamic terrorists to exaggerate the vicious treatment of prisoners, many of who were in reality innocent victims. It is nothing more than a deception to prevent the American public from viewing their ghastly handiwork. Sadly, I see that President Obama has seemingly agreed to protect these bastards.

This situation only serves to reinforce my objection to an all volunteer military. It is my opinion that it is not in keeping with the concept of the citizen soldier who serves primarily under the auspicious of the President who it the ultimate Commander and Chief. I fear that the primary allegiance of those in an all volunteer army can be transformed from serving the Republic to that of their military commanders. I cannot help from believing that those who would have been drafted would not have been more resistive to command to commit atrocities.

[Mike Daniels]

156. I'd be in favor of releasing them if only to hear Rush, Cheney and Hannity defend the acts

which would effectively end Rush and Hannity's careers and result in Cheney being disowned/abandoned by any conservative who has an ounce of brain power.

[grahamhgreen]

158. What kind of person would NOT PROSECUTE THESE CRIMES?

[Tempest]

166. A coward

One who would wrap it up in a "move forward" mantra.

[ProgressIn2008]

226. Morally bankrupt lowlife parasites who don't give a damn about torture and rape?

Just a guess.

[AlexanderProgressive]

165. Release the photos

And if we're afraid that our troops may be killed because of this, let's withdraw immediately.

[GinaMaria]

180. What do the victims want?

Do the rape victims want pictures of themselves being tortured exposed world-wide? Some might want this and others might prefer that they not be exposed like that. This should be the victim's choice. Coping with what happened to them is difficult enough without doing something that could potentially retraumatize them. OTH, there are those who might feel empowered by exposing their perps and letting the world know who they are and what they are capable of. It could be a way to put the shame and humiliation back where it belongs, on the perp. Again, I think it should be the victims' choice and what benefits their healing of this very personal trauma, no one elses.

[Tempest]

191. Iraqis want the pictures released

http://www.bnd.com/404/story/770440.html

[GinaMaria]

208. I'm not talking about Iraqi leaders.

Headline (emphasis mine)
Iraqi leaders question Obama's decision to not release abuse photos

one prominent Iraqi leader called for their publication while others cast doubt on the U.S. administration's dire warnings.

This article is about what Iraqi leaders want, not what the actual victims want. The victims deserve the power and control to decide how or if photos of them are shared. They were robbed of power and control in these horrible situations. They should get a tiny bit of control back. This is just a small gesture in their recovery. Let's focus on their recovery and their needs. Let's leave the political posturing to the politicians. The photos should be used to identify victims and get them the help they deserve.

[Tempest]

210. Did you read the article?

They talked to ordinary Iraqis and non-government groups.

The victims are not just the ones who suffered the abuse, the victims include the entire Iraqi population.

Other articles also have ordinary Iraqis who say they want the pictures released.

[GinaMaria]

230. Really?

there are pictures of the entire Iraqi population suffering from abuse from the gang rape of the victims? 'Ordinary' Iraqis have more of say in releasing these pictures than the actual rape victims?! That is outrageous. If the pictures are not of them, they don't get a choice. 'Ordinary' Iraqis are not victims of these rapes. They have been victimized by a culture of fear in which they know/knew things like this could happen to them or someone they know, but they are not the rape victims.

Think about if you were gang raped and the perps took pictures. Wouldn't you want to decide how or if those pictures were shared? Would you like them made public? Would you want them only available in a court of law? Would you be comfortable with the way it's being handled if it was you? Would you like the 'ordinary' population of your country to be seen as victims for what you went through and have the right to demand those photos be released world wide? Or would you like a choice?

There are some serious reparations needed for these victims. Give them the choice. Some will want their pictures published other will not. Let it be their choice. They deserve so much more.

When you find an article that says all the rape victims want all their pictures released world wide, let me know. I support their decision. They know what they need to move forward.

[Tempest]

237. Here's some victims who wants them released

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE54S01F20090529


If you are tortured, are you the only victim?

No. Your family are victims, your friends are victims, your community are victims and your country are victims.

[GinaMaria]

238. As I stated, I support Victims' choices about THEIR pictures

Family, friends and countrymen are not in those pictures. If they are, then I support whatever their choice is about the pictures they are in not anyone Else's.

As for family and friends community and country being victims, do you really think they are equally victimized as the people who were actually raped? I am not denying their suffering, but don't believe it is equal to those who were raped. By letting victims choose what happens to the images of themselves, we are honoring that they know what is best for their recovery. Focus on the recovery of the people who were raped. It eases the suffering of those around them. Family and friends need recovery help too, but not by choosing who gets to view the pics. Their recovery needs to respect the boundaries of the rape victim and what he or she needs.

And if it were you? Who should choose what happens to pictures of you being gang raped? Your family? Your friends? Your community? Your country? Another country? How about we let you decide what would be most empowering or best for you? You're the one who went through it.

[olegramps]

201. Their identity could be protected.

[GinaMaria]

207. Could. but will it?

Give back an ounce of the power that was stolen from these people and let them decide how or if pictures of them are circulated.

[No Elephants]

266. The ACLU suggested their faces and anything that might identify them be obscured. You are not going

to be able to ask permission in many cases. Over 100 are dead. Others have been released for lack of evidence and who knows where they are.

The administration had indeed raised the privacy issue as a reason not to provide the photos, but, of course, never mentioned the possibility of seeking permission. Apparently, America is more worried about potential embarassment than turning a blind eye to actual rape and murder. Go figure.

[flakban]

181. Will someone please tell THOM HARTMANN to direct his listeners to the URL below...

http://www.peaceteam.net/action/pnum984.php

It provides direct simultaneous messaging to the US DoJ, President Obama, the sender's US Senators, and the sender's US representative to tell them to appoint a special prosecutor for the Bush torture atrocities. We desperately need to reach out to our elected officials and compel accountability in this matter while there's still time! For unknown reasons, Mr. Hartmann has ignored each of my requests to direct his listeners to this useful tool since May 15.

[No Elephants]

267. Do you know of any online petition that has worked? Ever? I sign them, but I don't

hold out a lot of hope. I think the best contribution that you can afford to the ACLU will do a lot more. BTW, the ACLU also has a petition, as does Amnesty International.

[flakban]

270. This service is NOT a "petition"...

It's a FormMail script offered by the peaceteam.net organization. The script and webform facilitate direct simultaneous messaging to the US DoJ, President Obama, the sender's U.S. Senators, and the sender's U.S. representative in Congress. With just one click it instantaneously expresses the sender's sentiments (and collectively, the American public's sentiments) with regard to having a special prosecutor appointed who will investigate and appropriately indict for the Bush torture crimes.

As far as messaging elected officials about the special prosecutor matter goes, this service solves the problem in which concerned citizens must first learn who each of their elected officials are for their respective districts, then locating each of the correct websites for each of those officials, then locating the FormMail page on each website, then writing a separate message to each of them and sending it.

Where else can you achieve that end?

[RamboLiberal]

182. Want to protect American troops President Obama

Release the photos. Apologize on behalf of the American government. Compensate the victims or their families. Prosecute those in charge from Bush/Cheney, all their minions who authorized this, and all the way up and down the chain of command.

That's how you protect our troops! In the long run more troops will die the longer these photos are kept secret and those in charge go free than if you release the photos and prosecute those who are guilty.

[No Elephants]

250. +1

[fascisthunter]

185. Those against the release should be tied up

and forced to look at everything until they fucking get it.

The reason you hear this BS talking point about hurting the troops, is because if American tax payers find out the truth, the war will come to and end a lot sooner than the current nazis running the Pentagon.

Every Republican should get a close and personell tour of what happened to all those innocent folks who were torured. Maybe even partake in some "harsh interrogation techniques=torture".

[No Elephants]

249. I wish I thought you were correct. Our sheepleness is hard to

overestimate.

You would have thought that the first set of Abu Ghraib photos would have shocked us into doing something besides posting. It didn't. You would have thought that Obama's announcement that he was not going to prosecute would have done the same. it didn't. You'd think all the stories, talk and posts about what's in these photos would have caused an outcry so loud that the troops in Afghanistan could hear it. They haven't.

And after all that, by the time the photos are released, if ever, it will be anti-climactic. "Oh, yeah. Those."

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

189. OMG.

<<It is now known that hundreds of these photographs had been in circulation among the troops in Iraq. The graphic photos were being swapped between the soldiers like baseball cards.>>

jesus christ.

[redqueen]

202. Soldiers need to start coming forward and ratting the bad ones out.

Sickening... beneath contempt.

[Raksha]

206. The pictures are indeed "graphic and disturbing."

But equally disturbing in a different way is the note on the aztlan.net website right under the title:

(Please Note: Many of the photographs showing the rape of Iraqi women and the sodomization of Iraqi POW's at the Abu Ghraib prison are now at USA pornographic websites pointing to the possibility of collusion between the depraved US soldiers in the pictures and US based Jewish pornographers. Many of these photographs were also freely disseminated to US occupation forces, perhaps to inflame their nefarious desires and to motivate them to strike out against the Iraqi populace in these perverse ways.)

JEWISH pornographers?

That is a horrendous anti-Semitic smear and no evidence is offered to back it up. What makes them think the pornographers involved in disseminating these pictures are Jewish?

[redqueen]

219. Good catch...

what a nasty mess.

[Hissyspit]

225. atzlan.net is a loony hate site

You will real truths and useful material there and then they twist it into something ridiculous and bigoted.

[No Elephants]

245. Even if they were, it would be irrelevant, much like comments here speculating that those torturing

are Christian. Either way, it's a smear, having nothing to do with anything.

All Jews are not pornographers; all pornographers are not Jews; and all pornographers do not try to incite our troops into torturing. Duh. Basic Sesame Street level stuff. (Which of these things is not like the others?) For that matter, we have no proof that any pornographer tried to incite torture. We know only that the photos of captive, helpless naked people, being treated sadistically by people in uniform, eventually showed up on porn sites. If you think about it, that's not exactly a shock. We don't need to concoct a plot to explain it.

But bigots do not seem to be capable of that level of "sophisticated" analysis, be the target Jews or Christians or African Americans or women. Or, they pretend not to be, knowing their comments, no matter how stupid, will draw in the intellectually impaired.

[pacalo]

223. OMG. And the media can't get past WATERBOARDING to include this in the "debate"???

How would that persnickety Liz Cheney justify this? :mad:

Thanks for providing this link, mod mom. Every time I'd click onto the CBS link at lalaraw's site, I'd get bumped off the internet.

[No Elephants]

247. Waterboarding sounds so innocuous. Like something Brian Wilson might have written a

tune for when he was very young.




Rape, sodomizing, shooting for minor offenses, kicking in the head until dead. Not as catchy.

[mod mom]

235. PLS NOTE: This site contains anti-semitic language. When I clicked on the link

I saw the image, was sickened and quickly shut it. I was later notified that it contained:

"(Please Note: Many of the photographs showing the rape of Iraqi women and the sodomization of Iraqi POW's at the Abu Ghraib prison are now at USA pornographic websites pointing to the possibility of collusion between the depraved US soldiers in the pictures and US based Jewish pornographers. Many of these photographs were also freely disseminated to US occupation forces, perhaps to inflame their nefarious desires and to motivate them to strike out against the Iraqi populace in these perverse ways.)"

I believe that these are the Blackwater RW Christian mercenaries under Eric Prince that bush gave immunity to. I hope these and all those who ordered this horrendous actions to be prosecuted!

[KamaAina]

203. How much longer until the photos themselves are leaked?

I'm almost surprised it hasn't happened already. That would render the whole "To release or not to release?" debate moot.

It's also surprising to see something like this in the "Daily Torygraph" -- or maybe not, considering that on that side of the pond, it was Labourite* Tony Blair's war.

edit: punctuation

[rainlillie]

205. I wrote about this on my blog in 2005.. why did

it take four years for the MSM to pick this story up? Here's the post from 2005:
http://greatmindsthinklikemerainlillie.blogspot.com/2005/08/judge-man-by-company-that-he-keeps_04.html

[winyanstaz]

209. Stop these illegal wars now!...Bring our troops home now!

This is just bull**** and American can do a hell of a lot better than this.

[greeneyedboy]

229. I thought I couldn't be any more disgusted--but I was wrong.

Donald Rumsfeld needs to be in jail for the rest of his life.

[No Elephants]

243. As do Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell and any number of others. And a whole bunch of politicians need to

be primaried and otherwise kept out of office. The complicity ran both wide and deep.

[chknltl]

231. We The People?????

Who is America? Doesn't our government represent We The People? If the actions of our government represent the wishes of We The People then aren't We The People complicit in those actions our government takes? I will go out on a limb here and suggest that We The People are not in favor of the activities that are documented in those photos-furthermore that We The People should rally behind seeing the prosecution of those who authorized these heinous actions-these likely war crimes.

Would anyone here argue that it was wrong for the Allies of post WWII to have forced the citizenry of Germany to see what their government had done to their fellow human beings in those Nazi death camps? For those who missed that bit in their high school history class, much of the citizenry was marched through those camps to see the horror that their government had done. Many of the locals were forced to clean up those death camps and to bury the countless bodies-victims of their out of control government.
Would anyone here like to see civilian Americans shipped off to Iraq to clean up the depleted uranium oxide that now poisons much of the Middle East? OUR military put that stuff there!

If We The People wish to keep our collective heads buried in the sand while our victims, (and most of the rest of the world), are able to plainly see these war crimes committed by our own out of control government, then I argue that We The People are equally complicit as were those citizens of WWII era Germany. I would argue that ANY nation that has perpetrated the war crimes our government stands accused of deserves what retribution the world may pour out on that criminal nation-ESPECIALLY if that rogue nation chose to pretend that those crimes did not happen.

Ponder this when the civilized nations of our ever shrinking world damage us economically-especially now when the world's economies are so wrapped up in our own economy and are searching for ways out. Ponder this next time a 'terrorist' attacks an American citizen home or abroad.

[Odin2005]

236. OMG!

:cry:

[No Elephants]

268. If the American people truly understand what happens in war, they

may not continue to go along with the plans for Iraq, Afghanistan and the never-to-end war on terrorists. And that would make the Pentagon and a lot of defense contractors very angry.


President of the United States (and former General of the Army) Dwight D. Eisenhower used the term in his Farewell Address to the Nation on January 17, 1961 {excerpt):

“ A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications.

Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-industrial_complex


We didn't get it.

[marshall]

272. That's the problem with not releasing them while at the same time having press conferences

Whoever wants to can say they depect anything they want to, and we're on record that they won't be released.