US cities may have to be bulldozed in order to survive

[bloomington-lib]

Source: Telegraph.co.uk

Dozens of US cities may have entire neighbourhoods bulldozed as part of drastic "shrink to survive" proposals being considered by the Obama administration to tackle economic decline.

Local politicians believe the city must contract by as much as 40 per cent, concentrating the dwindling population and local services into a more viable area.

In Detroit, shattered by the woes of the US car industry, there are already plans to split it into a collection of small urban centres separated from each other by countryside.

"The real question is not whether these cities shrink – we're all shrinking – but whether we let it happen in a destructive or sustainable way," said Mr Kildee. "Decline is a fact of life in Flint. Resisting it is like resisting gravity."

"Much of the land will be given back to nature. People will enjoy living near a forest or meadow," he said.

Mr Kildee acknowledged that some fellow Americans considered his solution "defeatist" but he insisted it was "no more defeatist than pruning an overgrown tree so it can bear fruit again".

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/5516536/US-cities-may-have-to-be-bulldozed-in-order-to-survive.html

[Xenotime]

1. Why aren't these neighborhoods given to the homeless..

The the wrecked economy I am sure there are some families that would like a place to stay.

[ddiver]

3. As is? Not repairs? Unsafe conditions? Who's responsible for damages

if a porch falls down on your child or a rat bites your baby? Can the homeless bring the houses up to code or will the city just overlook the code violations.

A whole lot of liability there.

[bloomington-lib]

4. Not to mention the downside to gathering

a large group of unemployed and placing them in one spot. A depressed area of town at that.

[Xenotime]

7. I'm offended that you would think I wanted THAT! The government should fix it up.

[bloomington-lib]

no reason to be offended. I wasn't suggesting that's what you

wanted.

[ddiver]

9. I didn't think you wanted anything more than you stated, give it to the homeless.

That is why I asked. I must now ask, will the government repossess if taxes aren't paid, will they require insurance, where is the tax base for schools, police fire and services?

You may well be offended again, but these are reasonable questions. I have already seen what happened in Katrina camps when the government rushed in without a plan. Owning a house is more than having a key to the front door. Long range problems must be addressed before action is taken.

[ohio2007]

14. These properties are tax delinquent crack houses and most likely occupied "as is"

Nobody cares for the burnt up broken un kept houses that landlords long ago abandoned them. They prefer the risk of eminent domain seizure then having jail time served on them for neglect. These houses that are being considered are not owner occupied dwelings. They have been given up and have entered the last resort solution under the law.

Green spaces lure speculators, houses boarded up by the vice squad depress tax value on adjoining street properties.

[ddiver]

17. I understand all that and support the bulldozing. I was responding

to the idea of donating them to the homeless and the expenses and liabilities that would entail.

[ohio2007]

26. I agree with your point

I agree with your point that those are not homes so why burden the homeless further?
I am seeing it from inside the city point of view and how the declining cities handle permit violations. The stories told in housing courts should be published for public reaction. As the original article states, Obama sees it the same way.
Besides,
its the way civilizations build. Rebuilding over layers of the past.

[Demeter]

18. I Believe 40% of Detroit HAS Been Taken for Taxes

People fled in droves following the riots of 1967 and the post-Vietnam, post NASA depression of the 70's. Nixon was too preoccupied with Vietnam, anti-war protesters, the Oil Embargo, and Watergate to ever do anything about the old cities where the rioting had destroyed the infrastructure. The cities were simply written off.

As a result, there is no tax base. Industry and jobs left, property owners abandoned, and only those with no alternatives were left behind. Perhaps that is where the apocalyptics get their imagery.

[CreekDog]

44. the government fix it up in Michigan? with what money?

:shrug:

[TankLV]

21. There were just as serious risks in homesteading the WILD WEST, for chrissake!

HOMESTEADING is the answer - you have to make the land and homesite HABITAL as part of the package AND you're required to stay there for a number of years - but you get it all for FREE!!!

Just like they did in the WEST to encourage POPULATING those desolate areas...

[ddiver]

22. Those people were farmers. Not a lot of farmland in Detroit.

How do homeless make the land and home site habitable?

[TankLV]

33. YES! By occupying and RETURNING THE LAND TO THE TAX ROLLS, THEY ARE MAKING IT HABITAL!!!

The issue was to POPULATE the UNPOPULATED West, NOT to the "farming"...

The new land owners HAD TO OCCUPY THE LAND - and not all those involved in the Oklahoma land rush were "farmers" - quite the contrary...a lot more set up BUSINESSES and SHOPS in NEW TOWNS and CITIES.

[ddiver]

37. SORRY you are TOO LOUD 4 me. MY EARS hurt.

Good evening and GOOD NIGHT.

[TankLV]

59. Sometimes LOUD is required to reach DENSE matter...

[NickB79]

39. So what will these homeless people plow their land with?

Where will they purchase their seeds, fertilizer, and pesticides, and with what money? With what equipment will they use to harvest their crops? What grain silos, distribution centers and co-ops exist in the suburbs to handle their harvests so that they don't have to ship it long distances?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of re-ruralizing the suburbs. I believe this will be inevitable as Peak Oil eliminates cheap energy needed to travel long distances. However, it is expensive to enter the world of farming on any appreciable level. New tractors start at $50,000, and even 30-yr old tractors can cost thousands of dollars at auctions. Seeds, fertilizers, fuel, herbicides and pesticides are also expensive. Plus, there is much more knowledge required to successfully run a farm than plowing up some land and planting some seeds. A person can get a 4-yr degree in agricultural science at many major universities and still not know everything there is to know about farming. The homesteaders of the 1800's were the children of farmers, who spent their childhoods actually working the land. This basic knowledge has been lost in the vast majority of Americans, unfortunately. I grew up on a farm, and the silly questions I get from random people while working in the local community garden boggles my mind. I've met grown adults that didn't realize you could save seeds for the next year's plantings, or understand how compost can improve soil.

Before the re-ruralization of the suburbs can occur, there must be a massive re-education program for those who want to be new farmers, as well as government subsidies for the supplies needed and new facilities needed to accommodate the influx of crops and grains.

[wordpix]

56. c'mon, you can buy a good Troy-built rototiller for less than $1K, and then use

manpower. There are a lot of people out of work, remember? Seeds are cheap and you don't have to be rich to buy seeds and seedlings for a family of four. I know some people feel it's "beneath" them to grow their own food but take it from one who's been doing it for many years, it's good exercise and the food you grow is a helluva lot fresher, better tasting and healthier than what you can get in the grocery stores. What's more, kids love to dig in the dirt and grow a garden, and there should be a school garden on every school ground. So grow some gardens, start some collectives, sell some produce, make some tomato sauce and blueberry pies, and see what happens when the gardens bloom.

[Butch350]

53. The simple solution is the solution of the posted thread.

Clear the fricken land. Keep it simple st*pid.

[quakerboy]

51. Interestingly enough

http://greenreview.blogspot.com/2009/04/urban-farming-holds-out-promise-of.html

[Demeter]

13. Detroit's Population is less than Half What It Was at Its Peak

There just aren't that many homeless. No need to be. Lots of squatting opportunities. People move in, do renovations with midnight acquisitions from other abandoned houses, etc. Some eventually even buy the house...and it's been going on for years!

[snooper2]

64. you first

Just throw a couple more pieces of plywood up and I'm sure it'll be fine. PS though, don't go in the upstairs bathroom :)


5024 Hillsboro St Detroit, MI 48204

$3,000
$14 per month | Personalize this estimate | Check local mortgage rates 2 Units | MLS ID #29057744 | Refreshed 12 hours ago

[MichaelHarris]

2. I know one they can bulldoze

as long as my ex-wife gets to stay in it.

[Davis_X_Machina]

5. This has been done...

...with some success in the former East Germany.

[bluestateguy]

6. I'd like to see some new parks or rec areas

Anything is better than empty blight.

[timtom]

41. Amen, brother!!

I lived one block west of Telegraph Avenue and People's Park was one block east of Telegraph Avenue.

In one weekend, a motley gaggle of donors and volunteers turned a real mudhole into a beautifully landscaped park!

[Sanity Claws]

8. I wonder what parts

My guess is that a lot of office buildings will be bulldozed.
A few months ago I was driving through a suburb in Westchester County, north of NYC, and saw office buildings that were half-complete. My guess is that they will never be finished or used. If and when the economy recovers in a few years, I think technology will make a lot of office buildings obsolete. No reason for businesses to spend money on office space for workers who can work elsewhere, at least most of the time.

[knitter4democracy]

10. I'm all for it as long as we do it right.

First, everyone in the neighborhood who still lives there should get a voice in the planning and get paid for their property. Secondly, if we bulldoze and then put up mixed-income affordable housing with green space, easy access to bus routes, and a good grocery store/pharmacy, that sounds better.

Detroit has a lot of green space but could use more, especially in the rougher areas. I'd just hate for the government to kick people out but not offer them anywhere else to live that they can afford.

[bloomington-lib]

16. They actually say something like that in the article

"The city is buying up houses in more affluent areas to offer people in neighbourhoods it wants to demolish. Nobody will be forced to move, said Mr Kildee."

[One of Many]

11. No brainer

Awesome initiative. Create green space, remove blight, jobs in the process of tear-down and rebuild when the areas expand again. Out with the old and after a time, in with the new. Also removes a load of hassles for the surrounding areas and their local governments. +1 brazzilion

[KamaAina]

12. New Orleans has been having this debate since the Federal Flood of 2005

The inhabitants of the areas slated to be bulldozed are NOT amused.

[balantz]

15. How much you wanna bet these blocks of properties will be nabbed

by developers when the price is low and eventually incorporated into gentrification projects?

[Demeter]

19. I Wouldn't Bet a Dime.

There are no jobs. Next month there will be even fewer. That's why the city was abandoned. There are also no stores, no small business, and often no services.

[girl gone mad]

23. Exactly. Businesses are being given years of free rent..

to move in to some commercial buildings. There is no market for new development.

[balantz]

24. I meant bought cheap now and developed later. n/t

[Xithras]

47. That assumes the market will improve

Cities like Detroit aren't shrinking because of a short term economic problem, they are shrinking because the fundamental economic models they were founded upon evaporated. Cities die when all the jobs leave.

[Butch350]

54. Bingo! Unless some type of restriction is put in place.

[wordpix]

57. no one will gentrify if there are no jobs, balantz

[AngryAmish]

61. None

The people left there have no other options. Flint and Detroit are shitholes. If one was responsible one would have left long ago. Would you raise a family in such shitholes?

[TankLV]

20. This is so ass backwards - they should do HOMESTEADING first!!!

Offer land and/or the homes FOR FREE to NEW OWNERS WHO MOVE INTO THE CITY - just like they did with the Oklahoma land rush and all other Western Pioneering prgrams from the past that SUCCESSFULLY populated the BARREN WEST!!!

Offer people an INCENTIVE to MOVE BACK INTO these cities and neighborhoods!

Complete with long term residency requirements, etc, just like they had before...

Why oh why has nobody even THOUGHT of such a thing before?!!!

[Lagomorph]

25. Somebody did...

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Modern-Homesteading/1980-09-01/Community-Homesteading-Programs.aspx

[TankLV]

34. But that was from 1980 - I'm sure Ray-Gun eliminated that one LONG ago!

Is it still in place NOW?

I'm sure the it was one of the FIRST things the REPUKES did when they held power...

[w4rma]

27. Obama's economists continued giving our money to the banks. RAISE TAXES ON THE VERY WEALTHY.

Initiate homesteading programs. The system has become top heavy.

[Jack_DeLeon]

28. Sounds like a good plan...

when the people leave we need to let nature take over.

[shadowknows69]

29. Wait. What?

Can't wait for a natural disaster to do it for you anymore?

"Much of the land will be given back to nature. People will enjoy living near a forest or meadow," he said.
Translation:
Much of the land will be gobbled up bt developers.

[Davis_X_Machina]

43. Who will then sell the land, or the houses to....? n/t

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

30. I am a cab driver in Metro Detroit

I drive the streets and neighborhoods. I see the empty, burned out shells. And the sad reality is, most of the city is a disaster.

There is no way to effectively rehab most of these properties. Once it is abandoned (and sometimes even when occupied), the wiring, the plumbing, anything of value is stripped out.

The city is SUPPOSED to enforce the law, to watch to scrapyards, etc. but the task is overwhelming when the understaffed PD is running their tails off from call to call.

As for relying on the homeless to homestead and fix them, many in that situation are incapable or unwilling. They need supervision and assistance, not to be thrown into a dangerous situation they are financially, mentally, and/or emotionally unequipped to deal with.

Bust the blight, assist the weak, and let the city regrow organically!

[lildreamer316]

31. Too bad they already cut down all the old growth TREES to build those cookie-cutter houses.

Finally. Maybe we'll get some trees again.

[amandabeech]

50. Those trees were cut down 150 years ago, at least.

The area in and around Detroit was very productive farmland for years before urbanization.

Those houses were mostly built in farm fields.

More trees would be great, obviously, but it wasn't the developers who chopped them down.

[KakistocracyHater]

32. So putting all their eggs into the suv basket has resulted in

the destruction of Detroit? I hear talk in CA that the government is chopping police & firefighters, & all the usual targets (education, scholarships, the elderly, etc.) It feels like politicians are playing a boardgame, the 1 where everyone takes a piece out & hopes it doesn't all fall down. These politicos DON'T KNOW what should be kept & what is fluff.

[raccoon]

66. "Jenga" is the name of that game.

"It feels like politicians are playing a boardgame, the 1 where everyone takes a piece out & hopes it doesn't all fall down. "

[Psephos]

35. Just like Nam: "We had to destroy those villages to save them." eom

[Demonaut]

36. what was that Stevie Wonder song?

Village Ghetto Land....

Wow, limpballs is gonna have a field day with this....Obama will get the blame of course

[greengestalt]

38. Property crime

First, these areas used to be primarily farmland. Till Judd the Farmer was bankrupted by being blocked from the local markets and Big Ag undercutting him with stuff flown from 1000 miles away but due to US Pork bailout being far cheaper than he could ever grow.


But this is to inflate property values. If a bank has a thousand foreclosed houses, it can't get people to beg to sign a faustian loan for them. It's lost all it's money and will beg them to buy a $100,000 house (today's prices) for $10,000 just so they can avoid being taken over by the feds...


But if they can bulldoze all these economic slums, they'll reduce the supply of homes and increase demand by definition.


Its property crime, Its a human rights violation.


Here's what they should do and what we could make them do:

Make them liable for the property they own, so that if someone cooks meth in an abandoned house, they are responsible for the cleanup...etc. So they not only own all these homes, but they have to maintain them. But they can 'donate' the house to a homeless charity -or- sell it at low prices that charities can help people match. (or they can also not foreclose on the homeowner but reduce what they demand so they get some money, not more property) A good other point is to keep pressuring local officials to use the law on employers that hire illegals. No illegals means more jobs that have to be filled, so plenty of unemployed people could then get jobs. Low wage but humane and combined with low property values equates to the beginnings of a better standard of living. People can pick themselves up then, and most will greatly given the opportunity.

[Vidar]

40. Bulldozing the White House & Congress might be the best places to start.

[TaxCollector]

46. Bulldoze the entire District of Columbia

And most of Detroit's problems would solve themselves.

[Vidar]

55. Welcome to DU. Our state has been sold out.

[wordpix]

58. hey that's my hometown yer talkin about - and we have LOTS of community gardens here

There should be more and there's a huge demand for them.

[Joanne98]

49. Don't forget the lobbyists.

[The Stranger]

42. What's weird is that the comments to that article on the Telegraph site sound like a bunch of nuts.

Truly fucking Rightist, extremist nuts.

[bloomington-lib]

45. I found the article on free republic

I checked the site out after that museum shooting and saw this article. They must have gone over to the telegraph site to give their ignorant comments. Stuff like Obama is dismantling the country BS.

[prolesunited]

62. So you find inflammatory BS on freakrepublic

and run to post it on DU.

Things that make you go hmmmn.

[Joanne98]

48. They'd rather bulldoze houses then let people live in them. They're EVIL!

[bushmeister0]

52. Sounds like FDR's Greenbelt idea.

"The year was 1935. Millions of people were homeless or on the brink; even more were out of work. FDR created the Resettlement Administration to deal with the housing shortage, appointing Rexford Tugwell director. Greenbelt was Tugwell's idea: a town for people of modest means, where the built environment -- the houses and playgrounds and stores and roads -- would promote neighborliness and civic engagement.

Tugwell, a passionate believer in the cooperative movement, envisioned Greenbelt, and the other two 'green' towns he designed in Ohio and Wisconsin, as a way to try out progressive notions of social engineering while creating housing and jobs. Of the three, Greenbelt was his showcase. Built on worn-out tobacco fields owned by the government, the town was ringed by parks and had a central shopping and office district that was accessible by pedestrian walkways. Its row houses were clustered around shared courtyards that were also joined by walking paths. Cars existed on the periphery, and they still do."

http://www.greenbelt.com/gcom/mj020501.htm

[Liberal_in_LA]

60. Kick

[pam4water]

63. Well one wow. And I guess it one way to get 15% gren

[MrsBrady]

65. if the country is shrinking the builders in Tarrant County, TX don't know it.

building, building, building.