In Meeting, Kerry Emphasizes His Strong Support of Israel

[Herschel]

Senator John Kerry told dozens of Jewish leaders in New York on Sunday that he would continue the Bush administration policy of vetoing any United Nations Security Council resolutions seen as one-sided against Israel, participants in a closed 90-minute meeting said.

At the meeting, attended by the heads of major Jewish groups and Jewish politicians, he also repeated what he said in the televised debate earlier on Sunday: that the barrier Israel is erecting to separate Palestinian territories from Israeli ones is a fence, not a wall.

Mr. Kerry noted that if elected he would be the first president with a Jewish heritage and a Jewish relative, people at the meeting said. His brother, Cameron, who also attended, converted to Judaism. His paternal grandparents were Jews who converted to Roman Catholicism in fleeing Europe.

In Vienna yesterday, an Austrian genealogist said two Jewish relatives of Mr. Kerry's — his grandmother's sister and half-brother — had died in Nazi concentration camps.

Mr. Kerry, making a push for an important Democratic constituency that has warmed to the Bush administration over its Middle East policy, sought to assure the attendees that he was as strong a supporter of Israel as Mr. Bush.

cut

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/politics/campaign/01KERR.html

============================================

Well done. Kerry recognizes the importance of unwavering support for Israel. He appears to be avoiding the mistake Dean made by waffling and calling for an "even-handed" approach. There is no moral equivalency between Palestinian terrorists and little Israel defending herself.

[kiahzero]

1. So when "little Israel" runs over a defenseless girl with a bulldozer

That's just "little Israel defending herself."

Excuse me if I think that kind of "defense" is a little offensive.

[Herschel]

3. The Corrie woman put herself in danger

The incident was investigated.

[Malva Zebrina]

53. her fault

[GabysPoppy]

56. Correct

[Resistance]

4. look at this recent story

U.N. staff watch as Palestinian boy is shot in back

GAZA CITY—An Israeli army officer has been suspended after an unarmed Palestinian youth was shot in the back at close range as he waved goodbye to a delegation of visiting United Nations aid workers, the Star has learned.

Yousef Bashir, 15, remains in serious condition at a hospital in Tel Aviv, where he was taken after the Feb. 18 incident at his family's home near the Jewish settlement of Kfar Darom in the southern Gaza Strip.

He is partially paralyzed beneath his shoulder blades, with shrapnel lodged against his spine, the boy's father said.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

5. WTF?

No surprises here I guess.

[Herschel]

9. Palestinians should be thankful

Israel has respect for innocent lives. Otherwise, the carnage would be remarkable.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

11. Thankful!!!

For being occupied and humiliated daily. Are you f&^%ing insane?

[Herschel]

14. Perhaps you overstate the matter

Israeli supervision in the disputed territories is not as brutal as you may imagine. Palestinians are often the victim of their own unruliness.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

16. Hey. I have some swampland in Florida.

Are you interested in buying?

[jmcgowanjm]

30. Palestinians are often the victim of their own unruliness.

Due to DU rules, I can't specifically say which previous
occupiers ( Sharon has acknowledged the Occupation)
were most likely to have said just this. Insert name
of "Previously Occupied People" in place of "Palestinian".

[Herschel]

33. No comparison whatsoever

The Palestinians are treated humanely.

[jmcgowanjm]

57. You sound like the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

or would it be grasshoppers or cockroaches.

You have to demean the victim before you attack it.

[mac2]

34. Their country is in chaos, poverty, and hunger...what do you expect?

[Herschel]

39. The back of Palestinian resistance must be broken

Protests should take place in an acceptable manner. This is a first step.

[Ms. Clio]

45. such revolting posts

they make me sick to my stomach

[Herschel]

74. Begging your pardon

The annihilation of Palestinian resistance is a first step toward ending Palestinian suffering. It will not end before.

[Ms. Clio]

35. the excuse of the oppressor everywhere

blame the victims' "unruliness" for forcing the oppressor to brutalize them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. You probably missed all those suicide bombings then?

[rhino91063]

71. Do you think

if the US gave the Palestinians, tanks, helicopters and jets they would resort to blowing themselves up to repel the invaders?

[rhino91063]

70. When did occupation

become supervision?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

17. Nor I you

It is a fact Israel is restrained, for which Palestinians and their supporters should be thankful. This is in contrast to Palestinian terrorists that murder as many as possible.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

23. Extraordinarily rare

for the an Israeli soldier to be convicted of intentionally shooting an innocent. You know better.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

26. Extraordinarily rare for corrupt and racist cops to be convicted too.

YOU should know better.

[mac2]

32. The cycle of violence against children and women is two

sided. We should not take sides but negotiate peace...no matter what Nation, ethnic, or religious group you fall into.

It is a cycle that is unending is it not?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. I agree. But many people refuse to acknowledge this.

[Layman]

54. Evenhandedness

Presciely! We (i.e United States taxpayers) cut off the ga-billions of aid to Israel until they abide with all U.N. sactions. Brilliant idea!

[mallard]

42. Re: not restrained by UN Resolutions from stealing land

I'm hoping Mel Gibson's next film will be about 9/11.

[bicentennial_baby]

15. Bullshit

pure, unadulterated bullshit.

[Herschel]

19. Begging your pardon

Israeli supervision is far more humane than most imagine. Be glad.

[Resistance]

20. Murdering peace activists is not humane

[rhino91063]

69. Over 2000 innocent Palestinians dead

is not remarkable?

[Herschel]

77. Collateral damage

We will agree it is unfortunate.

[jmcgowanjm]

2. So, the US won't be pulling out of Iraq until Israel has oil

inside its borders- where ever they are.

Both Kerry and Bush are Skull and Bones.
What are the odds?
Coincidence or Collusion.

[mobuto]

6. What are the odds?

Uh actually they're pretty high if you're talking about rich white guys at Yale interested in politics.

[Sean Reynolds]

7. Well Howard Dean wasn't a member....

He was a rich, white guy that attended Yale and later became a politician! ;-)

[jmcgowanjm]

8. But Dean just couldn't make the S& B cut, Huh?

I wondered if he tried and then cried when informed
that high political machinations just weren't going to be
in his cards.

[Sean Reynolds]

38. Or maybe he doesn't care for cults?

:shrug:

[mobuto]

48. Cults?

Try frats. There were secret societies at my school too, dating back to the 1850s. I could have joined, I didn't particularly want to. They're just frats with a secret handshake and closed parties.

[mobuto]

10. He wasn't interested in politics when he was there

of course, in all fairness, neither was Dubya. Its a frat. You either join or you don't, but its hardly a big deal either way. By far the most sinister thing about Skull and Bones is its name.

[jmcgowanjm]

37. Uh, is there a nationwide S& B Fraternity?

I was under the impression that Yale had the only one

[PsychoDad]

41. I was wrong, sorry

The secretive Order of Skull and Bones exists only at Yale. Fifteen juniors are "tapped" each year by the seniors to be initiated into next year's group. Some say each initiate is given $15,000 and a grandfather clock. Far from being a campus fun-house, the group is geared more toward the success of its members in the post-collegiate world

Edited to add links

Who's who in S&B
http://www.freedomdomain.com/skullbones.html

Everything You Ever Wanted to Know, But Were Afraid to Ask
http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societies/Order_of_Skull/order_of_skull_and_bones.htm

[mobuto]

44. No

Its just a Yale thing. A frat.

[mac2]

25. I don't know about that...but Sharon has plans ....

that Americans won't agree with.

Jerusalem as the Capital of the ME...and maybe the world (if he's a true Neo Con Zionist).

It's one thing to be a state and live in peace...another to demand the world!!

Israel should demand a better leader. They are in this cycle that could destroy their environment and existence. Taking us with them.

[DuctapeFatwa]

43. Israel guards America's oil. Whatever Israel wants, Israel gets

If sharon decides to roast palestinian babies and eat them live on CNN, you can be sure within hours, either a bush or Kerry white house will issue a statement calling the barbecue "unhelpful."

[mobuto]

47. Israel guards America's oil?

Funny, I didn't realize that there was much in the way of oil in Israel.

[DuctapeFatwa]

49. America's oil in the region

[mobuto]

51. Uh

If that were true, how come Israel didn't take an active role - or any role - in the 1991 fight against Saddam? And if Israel's guarding our oil for us, why do we have 250,000 troops in the region? I suggest you rethink your theory just a tad. It needs work.

[jmcgowanjm]

61. Israel was forced to the sidelines.

If Israel had joined the Coalition of 1991 would've
looked a lot more like the Coaliton of March 2003.

[mobuto]

62. Absolutely right

and that's why its totally absurd to say that the US supports Israel because Israel is protecting our oil. We don't want Israel to protect our oil, and have repeatedly prevented them from doing so!

[DuctapeFatwa]

68. It is longstanding US policy. America's oil is located not only in Iraq

but in several other properties in the region, all of who contain rogue native elements that require a firm hand to help friendly leaders prevent actions that could present a threat to US business interests.

[mobuto]

73. Which is why we have 250,000 troops in the region

and why don't rely on the Israelis - and in fact prevent them from doing much of anything with regards to our oil supply.

Again I suggest you revise your theory. It needs work.

[DuctapeFatwa]

79. And more will be needed for the Liberation of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and

Syria. Many more. And those 250,000 have been unable to bring the natives in Iraq and Afghanistan to heel.

You may be aware that the 250,000 is a relatively recent presence.

Once America's oil is secured, and the insurgents eliminated and the docile natives contained, there will no longer be a need for an "Israel" as such, since there will be a variety of strategic choices for materiel storage.

[mobuto]

81. Pure conjecture

and rather poor conjecture at that. Give me something I can debate, not your fortune-telling.

[mobuto]

46. Jerusalem as the capital of the world?

Do you really believe that?

Sharon's plan is for Sharon to Prime Minister. That's it. He doesn't have a plan with regards to the Palestinian question, that's why he's building the wall. He certainly doesn't have one for regional or global conquest. Don't be absurd.

Israel should demand a better leader.

That's one thing on which we can agree. The rest, uh...

[CWebster]

12. Says it all:

"Mr. Foxman said that Mr. Kerry 'came very close to where the president is' on several fundamental positions. 'There was very little room between him and Bush,' he said."

[mac2]

21. How about the Patriot Act, corporate taxes, tax cuts for the rich,

public schools, bad trade, treaty, foreign policy, democracy instead of a theocracy. making sure our troops are fed, armed, etc.?

There's a lot of differences!! FOX you lying...

[DuctapeFatwa]

24. Actually Kerry doesn't think bush supports sharon enough

He joined most of his colleagues sent bush a letter of reprimand when bush said he hoped sharon would show restraint when firing US-supplied helicopter gunships into residential areas during routine assassinations of refugees.

[mac2]

27. Don't agree with that but Kerry is not Bush

I want Israeli influence out of our foreign policy.

[DuctapeFatwa]

31. Well, Kerry will articulate the policy much more eloquently

It will be the same policy, essentially, but he will put it into much more palatable words for you.

Israel is the cornerstone of US foreign policy because Israel guards America's oil in the region.

[Herschel]

28. Wonderful news!

Any indication Kerry is a stronger supporter of Israel than Bush is welcome.

[PsychoDad]

29. There was very little room between him and Bush,

That sums it up pretty well... :eyes:

Maybe a Bush/Kerry ticket would be a winner... A Bonesman ticket if you will. Cheney could be royal senescheal.

Republicrat: One party makes the choice much easier.

[mac2]

18. This is very bad government policy....even George Washington

said so!!

As a nation. we should not be in love with one side or the other; calling one bad over the other but negotiate peace.

Our 100% stand for Israel even though it was pursuing aggressive policy into land that was not their's ...was wrong. Bush set this up for his ME propaganda story.

They (the wealthy elite Neo Cons) divide us all over the world to remain in control. Don't get sucked into this Arab against Jew, Black against White..Asian, etc., South against North hate.

Kerry is very wrong.

[The Stranger]

36. This post resembles the Iraqi information minister, who while dodging . .

Well done. Kerry recognizes the importance of unwavering support for Israel. He appears to be avoiding the mistake Dean made by waffling and calling for an "even-handed" approach. There is no moral equivalency between Palestinian terrorists and little Israel defending herself.

. . . bullets continued to deny that there was any problem, affirming that, indeed, some sort of victory was imminent. It represents a state of denial shared by some (but, thankfully, fewer and fewer) that is inherently and insidiously destructive for all parties involved. I would almost be forced to assume it was made in caricature.

[raysr]

52. Very sorry to hear that

about Kerry. Isreal should be disarmed from US made weapons and cut loose from US tax payers dollars. Let it stand alone. I bought 2 axles for an old military jeep I fixed up a couple of years ago and was surprised to see they were made in Isreal.

[Malva Zebrina]

55. this is a disgusting thread

I find it so ironic--so very ironic. So tragically ironic--I can only shake my head and mourn for humanity that it should reduce itself to this type of shit for fifty years already. Nothing has been gained except the brutal persecution of another group of human beings, complete with barbaric killings of the worst kind.

The wall looks like a wall to me and not a fence. It is the ironies of all ironies. It is unfortunate that it must be an issue in an American election, but it is--as if we do not have our own important and pressing issues at hand--like killing ten thousand Iraqi people on the lies of another pre-emptive barbaric killer.

[GabysPoppy]

60. It is a fence

The "wall" as you put it is over 95% chain link fence. But don't let facts get in your way.

sarcasm/off

[Malva Zebrina]

63. Oh is that the truth?

and this is also not ironic?

it is a fence, in some parts a wall, similar to lots of fences that have been erected to keep people out or people in.

Perhaps this chain link fence idea can be used in other parts of the world also. Would you suggest it be used elsewhere?

[GabysPoppy]

65. Are you disputing my numbers?

Yes, I would suggest it for other parts of the world where terrorists think it perfectly all right to "brainwash" women and kids to strap bombs around their waists and blow up innocent people.

What would be your way of dealing with that kind of mentality? Inviting them to your home for tea and crackers. Reality does have a way of exploding in your face at times like that.

[Malva Zebrina]

72. Really? Which other parts of the world?

Iraq? -- to keep out the resisters or guerrillas, whose country has been invaded by a superior military force, all on a lie(which power and money and a superior military force allows one to do) and whose children and citizens were killed by a pre-emptive Machiavellian /Straussian doctrine of kill anyone to get what you covet or want, or to keep out the annoying Kurds? or the Sunni?

Iran? To keep them in? so others in the area can feel safe?

Syria? to make sure when we invade there they will have great difficutly escapting or getting out and no means of defense except to load themselves up with sticks of dynamite in a desperation?

"brainwashed" is a matter of perception . Brainwashed to some means something entirely different to another. Lots of people are brainwashed to believe in a certain way and they do it.

I am not disputing your numbers--I am pointing out that a chain link fence or a wall, it makes no difference-- the irony or ironies, to me, is that there is a fence/wall in that area of the world.

I agree, though, that killing innocent people, is something that needs to be stopped. All sense of human decency has been discarded in favor of brutality and pre-emptive attacks.

Usually, the onus, by all parameters of ethical or moral decency, lies with the stronger and better equipped who can use tanks instead of strapping bombs upon themself in order to conquor others, killing off whole populations of innocents.

[GabysPoppy]

76. What do you really mean to say here?

"Usually, the onus, by all parameters of ethical or moral decency, lies with the stronger and better equipped who can use tanks instead of strapping bombs upon themself in order to conquor others, killing off whole populations of innocents."

If I didn't know better, I would think you are saying it's Israel's fault that there are suicide bombers. What else do you wish to blame on Israel while you have the chance? The aids epidemic or the problems in Haiti?

[Malva Zebrina]

78. good thing you know better, then

You are baiting me and you do not wear it well.

[GabysPoppy]

80. I am not baiting you

unless you see the truth as baiting, in which case I will not argue with you.

[Submariner]

58. USS Liberty investigation

Maybe with ex-Navy Kerry in the WH we can finally cut through the lies and bullshit that Israel has been spewing about their wanton attack that killed 34 sailors. With new proof that Israeli aicraft KNEW that the Liberty was a U.S. Navy ship, we can hopefully resolve this issue that has dogged us since 1967.

http://www.ussliberty.org/washrj04.htm

[mobuto]

59. On the contrary

all the latest evidence - including recordings of the conversations of the Israeli pilots - shows that Israel did not know that the Liberty was a US ship.

[Submariner]

64. You haven't been keeping up with the news

We have Israel bagged now. We need congressional hearings which are long overdue.

http://www.ussliberty.org/smoking.htm

We have known for years that communications between the attacking Israeli jets and their headquarters were intercepted as the aircraft approached our ship. The Israeli pilots were clearly told by their controllers to find and quickly sink "the American ship" which was USS Liberty. Those communications were almost simultaneously translated and broadcast from a US Air Force C130 near the scene to an intelligence site at Crete where they were sent to Washington and to other stations as "Critical Intelligence," the fastest and most secure means available. Known as CRITICs, these reports routinely arrived in the White House, State Department and Pentagon within ten minutes or less.

http://www.ussliberty.org/forslund.htm

On the day of the attack on the Liberty, I read yellow teletype sheets that spewed from the machines in front of me all day. We obtained our input from a variety of sources including the NSA. The teletypes were raw translations of intercepts of Israeli air-to-air and air-to-ground communications between jet aircraft and their ground controller. I read page after page of these transcripts that day as it went on and on. The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller. Upon arrival, the aircraft specifically identified the target and mentioned the American flag she was flying. There were frequent operational transmissions from the pilots to the ground base describing the strafing runs. The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace. The pilots stated they had made several runs and the target was still floating. The ground control station re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace. There was a detectable level of frustration evident in the transmissions over the fact that the aircraft were unable to accomplish the mission quickly and totally.

[mobuto]

66. Ok, where are those intercepts?

If they exist, produce them! Because the recordings released by the Israelis show quite the opposite.

[Forkboy]

67. Thank you for sharing your views with the rest of us progressives

[Herschel]

75. Quite welcome

-

[Zero Gravitas]

82. I'll vote for him anyway

Its not like there will ever be much distinction between presidential candidates when it comes to Israel.

[Moderator]

83. As much as we'd like to keep this thread in LBN...

...it's unfortunately turned into a classic Israel/Palestine flamefest. Feel free to continue this discussion in the I/P forum, or join one of many other discussions already taking place there.