Two versions of Aristide exile

[windansea]

Among those who said they had spoken by phone with Aristide Monday were Reps. Charles Rangel of Harlem and Maxine Waters of California, and Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa, all Democrats.

Reached Monday evening, a spokeswoman for Harkin said: "Senator Harkin does not believe that was kidnapped, and he does believe that he resigned."

But the spokeswoman, Allison Dobson, added that Harkin thought Aristide resigned "under tremendous pressure that built up" after the Bush administration failed to send troops to protect him last week.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woaris0302,0,3712814.story?coll=ny-homepage-big-pix

[never cry wolf]

1. Makes sense to me

Being from Iowa Harkin had to take alot of rides on small aircraft and all. Self preservation is all.

[Gman]

5. You got it

[windansea]

6. hmmm so Harkin is a coward now??

He criticizes the Bush cabal all the time

[never cry wolf]

Flippant remark is all

There are potentially grave consequences to admitting that your country performed an illegal coup and violated UN and international laws. As much as this was a busco operation, like it or not, we are all complicit, it was OUR country that did the deed.

[Just Me]

89. The truth does present "grave consequences", huh,...

,...but "complicity" on top of "complicity" simply maintains the status quo. Either he commits to law or he wavers and perpetuates criminal conduct. If he fails to unite a common stand against such abuses, nothing will change. People with far, far less resources than he or his constituents have sacrificed everything they had for real democracy. Where is the courage? Geez,...if I had the kind of "financial heaven" that some of these have,...I would easily tuck it away, make a plan, and take an unwavering stand.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. Aristide has now talked to 40 squillion people on CNN

I imagine if you did a poll, the majority of US respondents would agree with the regime's version of events, and the majority of those in the rest of the world would agree with Aristide and the people who saw it go down.

It is interesting that none of the US "media" has asked regime henchmen why, if they were only providing security to Ariside, that they did not simply provide security to bring him the short distance to the US and grant him asylum...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. You are in favor of asylum for Aristide?

What criteria do you use in deciding which anti-democratic, oppressive thugs get asylum?

Just wondering.

Armed gangs provide last line of defense for Aristide

BY NANCY SAN MARTIN

Knight Ridder Newspapers

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti - (KRT) - Bily Prezidan, 22, and his gang of slum toughs don't have much, but what they have they owe to President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, so they're willing to sacrifice all to defend him.

"Aristide doesn't have money to do much, but he does his best," said Prezidan, one of four bosses of a group of pro-Aristide gunmen who control the capital's sprawling Cite Soleil slum. "If he had more time, he could do more."

As rebels press their 20-day-old drive to topple Aristide, the task of defending his government is falling more to men such as Prezidan. Haiti's police is melting away - U.S. officials now estimate the once 4,000-strong force is down to 3,000 - and there's no army. Aristide abolished it in 1995, after it forced him from power from 1991 to 1994.

There are still gunmen such as Prezidan, however, one of the pro-Aristide militants widely alleged to have been armed by the government and known as chimeres, after a mythical dragon.

"We are the military of Aristide," Prezidan said.

Aristide recently handed out some 4,000 weapons to civilian supporters from stockpiles in the basement of the National Palace and bought 2 million rounds of ammunition from a Latin American country, according to one U.S. security expert monitoring Haiti. But whether that will be enough to stave off rebels, which include former Haitian soldiers, is uncertain.

<snip for copyright>

The chimeres have been accused of being little more than drug-dealing gangs armed by Aristide to terrorize his opponents, break up their street protests and fire their guns at night near the homes of opposition leaders.

Prezidan admitted he and his gang sometimes disrupt opposition demonstrations but only because the opposition disrespects Aristide. http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/8031304.htm

I disrepect the President of my country as well. Does that mean you believe gangs of pro-Bush thugs should be allowed to terrorize me?

[On the Road]

31. Whatever Your View of the Second Amendment,

the "gangs of thugs" would qualify as citizen's militas. This is one of the situations it was created for. And whatever the dangers of gun ownership, Haiti shows the danger of an unarmed populace. A country should not be vulnerable to such a small, lightly armed force.

As far as "gangs of thugs" go: All these loaded emotional words are typical of propaganda. So are lack of specifics, just that "these are bad people."

The reports on Haiti are full of it. They have no more credibility than the North Korean news agency.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. I think there are probably thugs among both the pro- and anti-

Aristide forces. And I don't blame Aristide, I blame Bush for not being properly engaged all along.

However, I am glad that it is not the US that gave him asylum, DuctapeFatwa may be willing to turn a blind eye to accusations of brutality and intimidation without knowing the facts, but I am not.

[Suspicious]

52. But I suppose

you don't have a problem with the U.S. allowing Emmanuel Constant to roam free throughout the States?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

59. I don't know why you would make a supposition about my opinion

on a topic that we are not discussing, indeed a topic I know nothing about, since I've never heard of Emmanual Constant.

Should I start supposing that YOU "don't have a problem" with a bunch of things I disagree with? That you may never have heard of? :eyes:

[Suspicious]

70. Maybe an unfair supposition,

but I was testing a theory, which turned out to be correct.

In no less than two posts above, you called someone out (DuctapeFatwa) on his comments regarding asylum for Aristide. Example: What criteria do you use in deciding which anti-democratic, oppressive thugs get asylum?

I asked you about Constant, and I received the answer I expected: you have no idea who he is (tip: anti-democratic, oppressive, formerly of Haiti's nightmarish FRAPH death squad thug, convicted in absentia for a massacre, allowed to live in the United States, free as a bird). If your knowledge of Haiti is that lacking, I find it insulting that you make ill-informed comments, such as the example above.

The person you chose to target has based his position on a great deal of knowledge regarding Haiti, both current and background. Your position appears to be based on little to nothing.

On edit - forgot to add: :eyes:

[0007]

86. You got it right guy, and I agree with you

Paid trolls are at work hiding behind the name of democracy to protect junior.

[Just Me]

90. I think "plants" are attractive in their own right,...don't you ?

:bounce:

I do wonder what kind of person sells their soul to perpetuate an illusion or lie, though. Geez,...I guess their soul is for sale :(

That being the case,...they must not really value the notion of democracy,...since, as Rush Limbaugh would say, "It's just a living".

[Tinoire]

72. The accusations of brutality & intimidation + Emmanuel Constant

The accusations of brutality & intimidation against Aristide are coming from pro-FRAPH apologists and the business community.

Research the vile reptiles like Emmanuel Constant, his FRAPH organization, internationally known cocaine-running, his admitted links with the CIA after the years he spent on their payroll, and the warm, welcoming asylum he was given in the US after murdering thousands of Haitians. Without any knowledge of people like Constant and what the Haitians and Aristide were up against, you should really wait a little on judging Aristide who's being demonized by the Bush administration.

What good ever came from Bush? Tell me! That ALONE should be enough to send alarm bells ringing loudly & incessantly. Bush? Powell? talking about Democracy? RUN!!!!

Aristide... Democratically elected in a land-slide
Coup under Bush 1

Aristide... Democratically re-elected in another land-slide
Coup under Bush 2

Same Fraph garbage, same old Duvalier supporters, same old NED & SOA popping up their vile heads.

Same poor Black people dying in the same old US sweatshops.


===

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
FEBRUARY 18, 2004 3:13 PM
Center for Constitutional Rights

CCR Warns of Threat of Mass Murder in Haiti and the Return of FRAHP

NEW YORK - February 18 - With the reappearance of Jodel Chamblain in Haiti and the continued U.S. refusal to detain Emmanuel Constant, two of the bloodiest leaders of the 1991 Duvalierist coup are poised to return to power. Chamblain and Constant are founders of FRAPH, the paramilitary Revolutionary Front for Haitian Advancement and Progress responsible for more than 5,000 murders and untold dismemberment, torture and violence in the early 1990s.

Nearly a decade ago, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) sued FRAPH on behalf of a Haitian woman who had been pulled from her home, tortured, and had her arm cut off by members of the organization. CCR also launched an initiative to extradite Constant to Haiti to be tried for his crimes against humanity. The U.S. has continued to allow Constant to walk the streets of Queens, never held accountable for his role in the human rights atrocities he orchestrated. By his own admission, Constant was still coordinating activities in Haiti as recently as a few years ago, and there is no reason to think the situation has changed.

<snip>

Ron Daniels, CCR's executive director, says, "The U.S. government must leave no doubt that we support a democratically elected government in Haiti and will not permit FRAPH to return to power. They must detain Constant immediately. This man committed crimes against humanity in Haiti, yet he is free to walk the streets in Queens."

Chamblain has resurfaced in Haiti and is leading the violent and destabilizing riots currently threatening to topple not just President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, but Haiti's hard-won democracy itself. The U.S. government's failure to disarm FRAPH at the time and to extradite Constant to Haiti implicates our government in the current hostilities. We have a responsibility to see that democracy is not overthrown once more by brutal death squad leaders:

The U.S. must support the CARICOM proposal, which Aristide has agreed to, and work with CARICOM and the OAS to ensure peace;

Constant must be detained immediately and ultimately brought to trial; and

Chamblain must also be jailed immediately to prevent an escalation of violence in the region.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0218-08.htm

=====
Tons more sourced info about that butcher Emmanuel Toto Constant here:
http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/constant.htm

===========================
Human Rights Watch/Americas Urges Secretary of State Albright to Lift U.S. Impediments to Justice for Haitian Human Rights Victims

(October 16, 1997)--In a letter released today, Human Rights Watch/Americas called upon Madeleine Albright, the U.S. Secretary of State who is traveling to Haiti on Friday, October 17, to demonstrate a genuine U.S. commitment to democratic values in Haiti by lifting impediments to justice for Haitian human rights victims. By refusing to return materials seized from the Haitian military in September 1994, repeatedly suspending the deportation of Haitian paramilitary leader Emmanuel Constant from New York, and failing to disclose documents detailing U.S. investigations of atrocities, the Clinton Administration has impeded Haiti's progress in prosecuting those responsible for serious human rights abuses.

José Miguel Vivanco, the executive director of Human Rights Watch/Americas, asserted that the U.S. government's refusal to cooperate with Haiti's efforts to build the rule of law has damaged U.S. credibility. Vivanco stated, "While the U.S. government formally endorses programs designed to improve Haiti's justice system, it is simultaneously obstructing efforts to establish justice for Haitian human rights victims." The rights group invited Secretary Albright to remedy these U.S. actions by ordering the immediate return of the FRAPH materials to the Haitian government; revoking the suspension of deportation granted FRAPH leader Emmanuel Constant; and promptly providing Haitian prosecutors with all documents detailing U.S. investigations of the 1993 Cité Soleil and 1994 Raboteau massacres.

October 16, 1997

Madeleine Albright
Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
Washington, D.C. 20520


Dear Secretary Albright:

Since the restoration of democratic government to Haiti, the United States has played a leading role in reforming the Haitian police and judiciary and supporting elections. However, by refusing to return materials seized from the Haitian military in September 1994, repeatedly suspending the deportation of Haitian paramilitary leader Emmanuel Constant from New York, and failing to disclose documents detailing U.S. investigations of atrocities, the Clinton Administration has impeded Haiti's progress in prosecuting those responsible for serious human rights abuses. In your coming visit to Haiti, Human Rights Watch/Americas urges you to demonstrate a genuine U.S. commitment to democratic values and the rule of law by lifting these impediments to justice for Haitian victims of human rights abuse.

For over three years, the U.S. government has refused to return approximately 160,000 pages of documents and other materials seized in 1994 from the Haitian military and the paramilitary group, the Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haiti (Front pour l'Avancement et Progrés d'Haïti, FRAPH). Reportedly founded with CIA assistance, FRAPH was responsible for atrocities under the military government that ruled Haiti from 1991 to 1994. The U.S. continues to insist that the documents will be returned only after the names of U.S. citizens have been excised, apparently for the illegitimate purpose of covering up U.S. complicity in political murder and other abuses, particularly the relationship between U.S. intelligence assets and the military government and FRAPH. Ambassador William Swing has stated that the U.S. government already removed information identifying U.S. citizens from 113 pages of the materials.

In August 1997, as it had in 1996, the State Department acted to prevent the deportation of FRAPH leader Emmanuel Constant, who had received regular CIA payments while directing the paramilitary organization. Arguing that Constant's return to Haiti might cause instability and burden the judicialsystem, the State Department allowed him to remain in New York with a work permit. This kept Constant, who is wanted for serious human rights crimes in Haiti, out of the reach of Haitian prosecutors, despite assurances by high-ranking Haitian officials that he would receive a fair trial.

The U.S. government also has failed to turn over important investigative materials to the International Lawyers' Bureau, a special prosecution team of the Haitian justice ministry, despite requests by Haitian authorities. The Lawyers' Bureau is preparing trials of those accused of the December 1993 massacre of at least thirty residents of Cité Soleil and the 1994 massacre of at least fifteen individuals in Raboteau, near Gonaives, both of which were committed by Haitian soldiers and FRAPH members. U.S. authorities, including Amb. Swing, conducted inquiries into these incidents shortly after they occurred, and reportedly have prepared written summaries of their findings. However, in June 1997, the State Department denied Haiti's request for expedited delivery of the Cité Soleil materials. The State Department still has not responded to Haiti's March request for expedited delivery of the Raboteau materials.

The U.S. government's refusal to cooperate with Haiti's efforts to build the rule of law has damaged U.S. credibility. While the U.S. government formally endorses programs designed to improve Haiti's justice system, it is simultaneously obstructing efforts to establish justice for Haitian human rights victims. Human Rights Watch/Americas therefore urges you to order the immediate return of the FRAPH materials to the Haitian government, without any excision of the names of U.S. citizens; to revoke the suspension of deportation granted FRAPH leader Emmanuel Constant; and promptly to provide Haitian prosecutors with all documents detailing U.S. investigations of the Cité Soleil and Raboteau massacres.

Sincerely,
/s/


José Miguel Vivanco
Executive Director
Human Rights Watch/Americas


http://www.hrw.org/press97/oct/haitialb.htm

====

17. U.N. Committee, Under Pressure, Limits Rights Groups

By PAUL LEWIS, June 22, 1999 New York Times

In March, Human Rights Watch presented the U.N. Human Rights Commission with a list of exiled former leaders who it contends should be tried on charges of murder, torture and other abuses.

The list includes Idi Amin of Uganda, now in Saudi Arabia; the former Ethiopian dictator Mengistu Haile Miriam, who has taken refuge in Zimbabwe; Jean-Claude Duvalier of Haiti, who fled to France; the former dictator of Chad, Hissein Habre, currently in Senegal; Emmanuel Constant, former chief of a right-wing paramilitary group in Haiti, who lives in New York City; Alfredo Stroessner of Paraguay, now in Brazil; and Raul Cedras, former army chief of Haiti, currently living in Panama.

http://nucnews.net/nucnews/1999nn/9906nn/990623nn.116.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/global/062299un-human-rights.html

====

In 1998 Constant frequents the club scene in Manhattan, sells MCI phone cards on commission in his spare time, and on the weekends he relaxes in his family's elegant two-story home in the Laurelton neighborhood of Queens, New York..."You know what people don't understand," he says exhaling smoke through his nostrils, "is that it's me, Emmanuel, who is also a victim." Now that the military regime has disbanded, the 40-year-old fugitive is applying for political asylum in the United States—which would allow him to become an American citizen and help him to escape justice forever. Catherine Orenstein with Eva Rybkova, "A Killer In Our Midst" A version of this article first appeared in the July/August 1, 1998 issue of Emerge: Black America's News Magazine.

[Judi Lynn]

78. Great Constant links.

It's not exactly as if he's a top secret, is it? Did you see the photo someone posted of the guy with an article yesterday or today? He's EXACTLY as ruthless looking as one would think.

Here's a link to many references to Emmanuel Constant: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/index-bab.html

It contains this ort:

FRAPH genesis
From a dialog on the Haiti list, 8 November 2003
Chamberlain wrote:

> The FRAPH did not appear until 1993, either in official or
> unofficial form. It was created/sponsored by a group of senior army
> officers.

Yes, to be precise, a group of army officers on CIA payroll, right?

As described by investigate journalist Alan Nairn and by William Blum:

FRAPH, actually a front for the army,. . .spread deep fear amongst the Haitian people with its regular murders, public beatings, arson raids on poor neighborhoods, and mutilation by machete. FRAPH’s leader, Emannuel Constant, went onto the CIA payroll in early 1992 and, according to the Agency, this relation ended in mid-1994. Whatever truth lies in that claim, the fact is that by October the American Embassy in Haiti was openly acknowledging that Constant—now a born-again democrat—was on its payroll.

The FRAPH leader says that soon after Aristide’s ouster an officer of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, Col. Patrick Collins, pushed him to organize a front that could balance the Aristide movement and do intelligence work against it. This resulted in Constant form ing what later evolved into FRAPH in August 1993. Members of FRAPH were working, and perhaps still are, for two social service agencies funded by the Agency for International LDevelopment, one of which maintains sensitive files on the movements of the Haitian poor.

(excerpted from the book Killing Hope by William Blum, http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Haiti_KH.html

Found it in this search for "Emmanuel Constant" and the CIA, which affords everyone 771 seperate sources to check for someone a few of us don't recognize:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=active&q=%22Emmanuel+Constant%22+%2B+CIA&btnG=Google+Search

[Tinoire]

79. No... Sigh... Constant, a "born-again Democrat"

it's a merry little right-wing secret.

by October the American Embassy in Haiti was openly acknowledging that Constant—now a born-again democrat—was on its payroll.

Think him and his merry gang of "born-again democrats" will be posting here soon? If not already?

Something about this "born-again democrat" makes you wish he had never been born in the first place.

Born again Democrat. What an effing joke. These are ruthless killers wanted by Human Rights Groups for massacres against innocent people!

[Judi Lynn]

82. Very odd arrangement when you think it over

A "born-again Democrat" who has been supported by Republican interests for YEARS.

Diabolical, one might say.

[Chicago Democrat]

34. Aristide Should Have Been Given Sanctuary in US!

This "drug"/Gang charge is bullshit. Aristide is a socialist. He got rid of the army. He raised the minimum wage. His support comes from the slums of Haiti. He is a socialist; he is a democrat. That is why he was removed from power by paramilitaries hired by the middle and upper class. Here my Link, if you are actually interested in the truth.

http://www.democracynow.org/index.pl

Yes some of his supporters deal drugs and are in gangs. The opposition has gangs too. Haiti is the poorest country in the western hemisphere, drugs are a normal thing in any place of misery.

Also there were parlimentary voting problems in the 2000 Haitian election. US promptly cut off all aid to Haiti. (Mainly a Bush administration Anti-Clinton thing. Remember if Clinton did it, Bush destroys it.) This works for the wealthy (and white) Haitian exiles who have always hated Aristide. These are the same people who sponsored the coup against Aristide in 1991 (also sponsored by Bush).

The lack of aid in the last 3 years made it impossible for Aristide (500,million $ this year cut off). You see, that very little money means the difference between success and failure for this first democratically elected president of Haiti. It is a crime what has happened.

[DuctapeFatwa]

51. Aristide was indeed a threat to US investors and business interests

US policy toward Haiti has remained virtually unchanged for centuries.

http://cyberspacei.com/jesusi/authors/chomsky/year/y501_008.htm

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. Is that why you want to grant him asylum? To help business interests?

I must congratulate you on your out-of-character candor. Your pro-corporate agenda is usually much more cleverly obscured.


If that's not the reason, what is? Why are you willing to turn a blind eye to the human rights record of the Aristide government? http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Hti-summary-eng

[DuctapeFatwa]

66. For the small but shrill reading minority interested in US policy re Haiti

http://cyberspacei.com/jesusi/authors/chomsky/year/y501_008.htm

w/props to Tinoire for the link

[Feanorcurufinwe]

67. So your reason for turning a blind eye to human rights abuses

by the Aristide government is - what, exactly?

Two wrongs make a right?


Why are you unwilling to answer a simple question?

What is your reason for wanting to give Aristide asylum, despite the questions Amnesty International and others have raised?

Do you think the innocent people brutalized by the Aristide side are less important than the innocent people brutalized by the opposition side? Why?

[Just Me]

91. In case you didn't notice, our country has its own record of abuses,...

,...and if you expect perfection from any individual attempting to better the country of Haiti competing against a US funded corporate mandate in that country,...you are just plain,...delusional!!!

If your baggage is human rights abuses, do a comparative analysis (although it is nearly impossible since we live in the delusional, commercialized and glossly land of American corporatism) between Haiti and the US with respect to prison population, poverty, domestic abuse, civil rights abuses, health care, domestic terrorism, and so on and so forth!!!

Get some damned perspective,...if you are willing and able!!!

What if China tied into a well-knit albeit relatively small group of people in this country who wanted to overthrow its democratically-elected asshole, GWB? Suppose the international community decided to gang up and site the horrific abuses by this country against not only its own but against other nations and controlled the feed of that record?

[windansea]

23. uh huh

that's why Aristide is being overwhelmed with asylum offers

[Tiberius]

54. he's not welcome

...because he's a hot potato. That's about it. It provides no evidence about his effectiveness/purported misdeeds/purported whatever.

[htuttle]

75. In a word, Bullshit!

http://www.africaonline.com/site/Articles/1,3,55222.jsp

South Africa: Pretoria has "no problem" granting Aristide asylum

Staff Reporter
PRETORIA, 2 March 2004

South Africa could be the final destination of ousted Haitian president Jean-Bertrand Aristide, but the government has yet to receive a formal request, Deputy Foreign Minister Aziz Pahad said on Monday.

PRETORIA: "I am not aware of any formal request and, therefore, we have made no formal decision," the South African news agency SAPA quoted Pahad as saying in Pretoria. "If we can help, we will help," he added. "In principle, we have no problem."

(snip)

South African President Thabo Mbeki visited Haiti, the world's first black republic, earlier this year to mark the country's 200th year of independence celebrations. South Africa also donated more than US $1 million towards the event.
(more)

[Tinoire]

74. Will you please stop peddling those lies?

Aristide has requested asylum from NO ONE.

Your boys in Washington, Powell and Bush are the ones who requested asylum in his name. Several countries made it clear they would not discuss the matter with the US but only with Aristide.

The only country willing to act in such a scuzzy fashion was is a recently freed French colony that's still dependent on money from the US & France for aid and begging to do them both favors.

[windansea]

83. my boys??? hardly

Powell said that the first country Aristide requested to go to refused him, "and we went through an hour and half of negotiations to find alternatives."

The secretary said about 15 members of Aristide's security detachment accompanied him, but Rangel and Waters said Aristide claimed to have only his wife, his brother and two security members.

"That's what happened, notwithstanding any cell phone reports to the contrary," Powell said.

The kidnapping claim is "absolutely false," concurred Parfait Mbaye, the communications minister for the Central African Republic, where Aristide's party was taken.

The minister told CNN that Aristide had been granted permission to land in the country after Aristide himself -- as well as the U.S. and French governments -- requested it.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/03/02/aristide.claim/index.html

[Tinoire]

85. Difficult to think otherwise when they're ones you keep quoting to support

your arguments.

Most people here quote Democrats to prove their points. Most even eschew quoting the DLC in order to protect their credibility. You keep quoting Powell, Inc and the Haitian Right-wing to make your points.

What should one think?

On edit: Maybe Powell is a "born-again Democrat" like the FRAPH terrorist in post 78 :shrug:

If so, please document the miraculous metamorphosis for everyone's edification.

[windansea]

92. original post was quotes from Senator Harkin

that contradict Aristide's kidnapping and coup statements

Senator Harkin is a democrat with a capital and small "d"

the post you responded to was in response to your statement that Aristide had not requested asylum from anyone

Perhaps Powell and the minister from CAR are lying...perhaps the country Aristide first requested asylum from but refused will come forth with proof of the request...perhaps the CAR has recordings of Aristide asking for asylum from that country

personal attacks will not win the argument, and usually are an indication that the attacker has nothing more to offer

I realize that you are from Haiti...and I'm sure you have many insights to offer about the situation...but so do many respected organizations such as AI, Carter Center, Reporters without Borders, etc whose reports have been posted concerning Aristide, past Haitian elections, freedom of the press etc etc

[Tinoire]

94. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps = All giving Bush & Powell the benefit

My insights on this subject do not come from being Haitian. They come from my education, reading, thinking, discussing & reasoning just as they do on the myriad of other subjects I comment on here. This is the main reason, I always source my posts & thank goodness I do because it pre-empts your insinuation of being "biased".

Your snippet quotes from the respected organizations have already been denounced in post after post & with their own words yet you choose to keep pushing the same right-wing arguments posted on RW boards and when all else fails, you pull out Colin Powell to back you up.

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps...

What we do know for certain on this Democratic board is that Colin Powell is a liar and that the new "government" of CAR (new since the little French/US backed coup this summer) is as corrupt as Powell is. Nothing and no one associated with either has ANY credence.

How you fail to see this perplexes & amazes me. What is amazing is your persistence. What is even more amazing is pulling out Colin Powell as a last resort to a flimsy Bush-excusing argument.

Perhaps Bush really won the election.
Perhaps no Democrats pursue wars and occupation.
Perhaps Clinton was rightfully impeached.
Perhaps Bush is the best leader America ever had.
Perhaps Colin Powell cares about real Democracy in Haiti.
Perhaps Aristide is as crazy as Chavez.
Perhaps Bush really wants US corporations to pay Haitians the minimum wage Aristide was pushing for.

or

Perhaps the Congressional Black Caucus is the only faction out there that has the balls to tell the truth & stand up for principle.

You wouldn't have all these perhaps if you spent less time clinging to those 2 quotes the RW is pushing around and more time watching the House Committee Hearing on the matter where real Dems are standing up for principle, justice, truth and Democracy:

Political Crisis in Haiti House Committee Hearing C-SPAN

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1189042

[windansea]

95. so basically you are saying

Senator Harkin, Amnesty International, The Carter Center, Reporter without Borders, and NCHR are full of shit right??? You support attacks on peaceful student rallies??

Haiti: Right to Peaceful Assembly Denied

Pro-Aristide Mobs Attack University Students to Prevent Rally in Nation’s Capital

Dozens Hospitalized

Haitian Rights Group Expresses Deep Concern

New York, December 5, 2003 – University students were denied the right today to peacefully express disagreement with President Jean-Bertrand Aristide’s stewardship of Haiti’s affairs when pro-government mobs attacked them. Reports from eyewitnesses and the media indicate that CIMO, Haiti’s anti-riot police unit, stood by while the mobs rioted in the street before forcing their way into the building where the students were gathering, striking them with makeshift weapons and injuring dozens.

"It is very unfortunate that Haiti’s government leaders have increasingly resorted to naked violence to suppress dissent," said Mr. Jocelyn McCalla, interim Executive Director of the NY-based National Coalition for Haitian Rights (NCHR). According to Pierre Esperance, Director of NCHR-Haiti, today’s violence stands as one of the worst perpetrated against students since 1993 when Haitian military leaders forcibly shut down the State University, preventing students then to express support for Aristide’ return to power.

During the past year, Haiti has witnessed a growing movement in favor of leadership change with much of the focus on President Aristide. In the country, the rule of law has little or no meaning. The police and the judiciary are deeply politicized and rely on a network of loosely organized but heavily armed gangs to suppress dissent and intimidate the population. Despite repeated promises, political killings remain unsolved. Such is the case for Jean Dominique, killed almost four years ago in April 2000.

The government stands as one of the most corrupt in the world, according to Transparency International. And most development specialists agree that poor governance remains the greatest impediment to effective international assistance. President Aristide is no longer as popular as ten years ago when Haitians fought for his return from exile. "Today they’re dying because of him," said McCalla, adding: "We will not stand by while the young women and men of Haiti suffer the debilitating wounds of failed policies and despotic behavior. We urge our colleagues in the international community to join us in condemning the government-sponsored violence, and insist on the strict respect of civil and political rights as sine qua non conditions for progress in Haiti."

http://www.nchr.org/hrp/12-25-03PR.htm

[dax]

97. It is all a matter of perspective...

You are posting descriptions that, to someone who has followed the patterns of CIA coup d'etats for a long time, describe what they do very well- then you blame the results on the wrong people. They pick some cold-blooded killers, pay them, train them, then turn them loose with arms and a population to draw from which is desperate. You have to realize the Haitians are not literate, they are poor and had no medical care, clean water or schools, in most areas of the country until the Aristide government began building clinics, roads and other facilities. The US and Europe has denied the development funds because Aristide refused to privatize everything so they could take control (like the US is doing in Iraq right now) He raised the minimum wage higher than they recommended-70 gourdes instead of 36 per day (IMF), still less than five bucks a day.
Now the goons they turn loose with money and arms become lawless murdering gangs who terrorize the population- people will cheer for them, kiss their cheeks etc. because if they don't, their house might burn down tonight, their daughter raped, their children chopped to pieces or maybe they burn with the house. You have an elite of sweat shop owners who control all the press (kind of like here!) and they frame what is happening to the world- ie gangs are terrorizing people so they won't oppose the government-the government is terrorizing people so they can't dissent etc. Now there will be instances where government supporters will try to fight back against the terrorists, or even get lawless themselves-they will investigate one or two incidents and claim all the violence is the govt against a peaceful, responsable opposition. THIS IS BULLSHIT if the opposition had support, they would organize a party and run for office-they would NOT go around murdering people and threatening to execute the President and his family and others. THAT IS TERRORISM. it is IRRELAVENT what Aristide and his party have done or not done- the war was started by US government with the wealthy of Haiti backed by thugs because without a Coup, they would never have won- the possibility that HAiti could succeed as a free country with the help of CUBA and VENEZUALA is absolutely TERRIFYING to the INTERNATIONAL CAPITALIST Government- quit pussyfooting around people and realize=the US is 5% of the world's population controlled by 5% or less of its population controlling 95% of the wealth do you really think everybody is going to bow around sayin' yes massa forever? This is about regime change to make sure no non corporatized societies can succeed. No accident Venezuala is burning right now-if people keep buying this bullshit Bush will go in there too. Remember GRENADA?? more slaughtered than WWII I don't remember ever being shot at by a Grenadan-do you? They try to distract you with the side issues that are important-don't get me wrong but if we were going after murderous governments-lets start with our own, Saudi Arabia, Turkey etc. US Govt just supported TERRORISTS to oust a Legitimately elected President. There were NO IRREGULARITIES in his election-the only challenge was to the run-off for ministers and Aristide was allowing that to happen. The "thug party" had just raised it as a flag they never intended to run for anything because they could never win(at 12% they had a long way to go)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

98. Welcome my brother, welcome.

We need more of you here.

:thumbsup:

[Tinoire]

100. Your post leaves me speechless. Breathless.

Welcome again to DU Dax :toast:

You capture the situation so accurately! Thank you.

[windansea]

101. I am posting reports by respected orgs

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, NCHR, Carter Center, Reporters without Borders etc

you are posting your opinions...understand the diference??

[Tinoire]

102. Please repost so ALL can weigh the opinions you represent

and follow your thought process.

Please don't neglect this post, to which you have been specifically invited for days: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1181861

Clever...

RW talking points backed up by Colin Powell :eyes: vs "opinions" by a majority of DU posters, vs the CBC (the only ones who stood up to the despotic Bush regime some of us are fighting) and vs the poor of Haiti who do not have the electricity, much less the computers or the DSL connection to, ahem, agree with your selective snippets.

Whose side are you one? Powell's? The USAID's? The FRAPH's? The Sweat-shops'? Because, oddly, the talking points and references are astoundingly, eeringly similar.

If you're not, then you should go OUT of your way to repeat the trash at Free Republic that parallels your talking points.

[windansea]

107. my posts are mainly from respected orgs

such as Amnesty International, the Carter Center, Human Rights Watch, National Coalition for Haitian Rights, Reporters Without Borders, politicsandelections.com, a quote from Senator Harkin, and one quote from Powell and the CAR minister that challenged your assertion that Aristide had not asked for asylum from anyone.

If you bothered to visit the above orgs and their sites you would see that these unbiased well respected orgs detail abuses by Aristide such as rigged elections, intimidation and mob violence against opposition groups, students, and the press.

These orgs also detail abuses by FRAPH, some of the opposition groups led by Phillipe, Chamblain, Tatoune, etc, US admins of Clinton and Bush, International Corporations, sweat shops, and lack of support from the International community.

I am on the side of the truth and the people of Haiti...and attempts to smear me or my sources as parroting RW talking points are laughable. When this issue arose I saw many posts painting Aristide as an angel who promoted true democratic reform who was abducted at gunpoint and coerced into resigning, I merely posted information contradicting these assertions.

I've seen some posts by you that seem to imply you look at this whole issue as a means to bring down Bush while you and many others neglect the fact that Aristide turned into a thug and used the same methods of intimidation as some of his opponents and did not support the best interests of the people and promote true democratic reform.

Do I wish the US and the UN had stepped in earlier to prevent this?? Of course.... But I also think Aristide turned into a thug and suppressed freedom, rigged elections, and in general blew it.

As usual nothing is black and white, and the struggle for power on all sides is a nasty business...in the end the people usually get screwed. I hope that the UN and international support will help Haitians build a true democratic government and economic reforms that allow them to enjoy basic human rights and freedom from exploitation. If Aristide had been truly promoting this, we probably wouldn't be debating this.

[Judi Lynn]

103. Outstanding perspective, dax.

You've taken the time to read a lot, and actually become educated on the subject.

You have something to say, and it's like seeing a valued friend coming into view reading your comments.

You'll have many friends among the actual DU'ers here.

[Turley]

93. You'd be wrong Duct-tape

No one in Europe is really buying the coup story. The Euro-press is not treating it as a realistic story. These are folks who aren't predisposed to give Shrub any benefit of the doubt.

Personally, it appears that the only people anywhere who are giving Aristides' claims any credence are the CBC, Jesse Jackson, and the left-wing of the D.U. It seems to me that Aristides, for whatever reason, turned out to be just as corrupt as anyone else who's tried to run things down there. His "landslide" election was called fraudulent by none other than the U.N., every single country in the E.U., and Jimmy Carter himself. I don't think I need to remind you how many elections Carter has monitored. If he says Aristides turned into a crook, that's pretty much good enough for me.

If there is an answer to the mess that is Haiti I can't say that I know what it is right now. I'm pretty sure however, that Aristides' continued rule was not the answer.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

96. Not quite.

First if someone claims to be knowledgeable about this subject I would hope the can spell the president in question's name. Second there is no "coup story". It was a coup that what a coup is the overthrow of a government by force. Whether he was corrupt, killing, raping and eating little children and nuns or whatever charge he can be slapped with he was still overthrown by force. That's a coup like it or not. The guns used by the "rebels" where traced to guns our gov. gave to the Dominican Republic some time ago. Maybe it's just coincidence. Who knows, right? I'll be damned if any citizen in a sovereign nation will think that outside interference as such is justified Also CARICOM nations want an investigation into the coup. That's quite a few more people more than those you mentioned. Can you find me the quote where Carter called the elections a fraud? How many of the EU countries said the same? George Bush and every European president are most likely crooks (of course we need something called evidence). When do we overthrow them? If you read this thread you'll probably find a lot of valuable information. But of course provided by the "the left-wing of the D.U.", whatever that means. They haven't let me down as far as information goes (so far). These lefties are very well documented.

PS The Guardian and other European press has referred to it as a coup as well. That's also good enough for me.

[Tinoire]

3. Just as for Zippergate, the CBC are the only ones any balls n/t

[windansea]

4. actually I saw an article yesterday quoting Rangel

saying that interpreting this as a kidnapping was "subjective"

trying to find it now..

[Tinoire]

13. Yeah, I saw that too, Even posted that I wondered why Rangel

seems to be back-peddling a little.

Anthrax? Plane rides?

[windansea]

12. Rangel backs off

But Rep. Charles Rangel, a New York Democrat and, like Waters, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, said after talking by telephone with Aristide that interpreting his allegations of ``kidnapping'' was ``subjective.''

``They strongly suggested that he get out of town. The military helped him make the decision,'' Rangel told reporters as a Congressional Black Caucus delegation met in New York with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to discuss Haiti.

http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/content.asp?y=2004&dt=0303&pub=Utusan_...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

44. I sure respect Rangel more than I do Aristide.

If it comes down to who to believe, there's no confusion here.

[DuctapeFatwa]

81. Perhaps Mr. Rangel is not anxious to visit the C.A.R at this time

under escort.

for security.

with his wife.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. Of course he resigned

wouldn't you if someone was pointing a gun to your head?

[windansea]

10. apparently Harkin doesn't see it that way

and he talked to Aristade directly

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. I heard Aristide on NPR this morning

he said he was kidnapped.

Since Harkin wasn't there and is going on hearsay, I would believe what I hear from the horse's mouth first.

[windansea]

18. Harkin spoke to him before CNN NPR etc

and did not get the impression he was coerced ...it appears that after his 20 hour plane ride...Aristide is suffering from "resignation remorse"

[Tinoire]

22. Yeah... just like the Lithium story. Are you unable or

unwilling to see through the neo-con bull-shit?

Or is this apologetic white-washing of NED & SOA activities?

[windansea]

28. I say Aristide is lying

sorry but I don't admire the guy...is Harkin a neocon now too??

[Tinoire]

33. You have such a way of seeing things

Nobody's asking you to admire anyone.

Stand up for social justice & the poor people instead of apologizing for those who seek to impose a brutal exploitation on the most deliberately & systematically imporverished nation in our hemisphere.

Or are the poor simply too dumb, too stupid to know who they want to lead them to a better life?

Next time you look at a baseball, think hard and long.

===

HAITI
Noam Chomsky
1994

<snip>

...Haiti, a starving island, is exporting food to the US-about 35 times as much under Clinton as it did under Bush. Baseballs are coming along nicely. They're produced in US-owned factories where the women who make them get 10¢ an hour-if they meet their quota. Since meeting the quota is virtually impossible, they actually make something like 5¢ an hour.

Softballs from Haiti are advertised in the US as being unusually good because they're hand-dipped into some chemical that makes them hang together properly. The ads don't mention that the chemical the women hand dip the balls into is toxic and that, as a result, the women don't last very long at this work.

<snip>

The Aristide government had entirely the wrong base of support. The US has tried for a long time to get him to "broaden his government in the interests of democracy."

This means throw out the two-thirds of the population that voted for him and bring in what are called "moderate" elements of the business community-the local owners or managers of those textile and baseball-producing plants, and those who are linked up with US agribusiness. When they're not in power, it's not democratic.

(The extremist elements of the business community think you ought to just slaughter everybody and cut them to pieces and hack off their faces and leave them in ditches. The moderates think you ought to have them working in your assembly plants for 14 cents an hour under indescribable conditions.)

Bring the moderates in and give them power and then we'll have a real democracy. Unfortunately, Aristide-being kind of backward and disruptive-has not been willing to go along with that. <snip> But unless there's an awful lot of popular pressure, our policies will continue and pretty soon we'll have the "moderates" in power.


<snip>

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/ChomskyOdonian_Haiti.html

===

We're so honored to toil away for America's entertainment. God Bless the NED, the SOA and all the thugs whose defense I seem to recall you leaping to over the last few months. They will ensure a steady supply of baseballs. Never mind the 12 year olds stitching them up in indescribably conditions because it's time to

Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide Demonize Aristide

and keep those sweatshops operational.

[Bandit]

15. I heard Aristide was on CNN himself and said the document that was

presented with his signature was false. That the only document he signed was in Kreole not English. The document they were waving around was in English. Aristide said he was removed by force. Harkin says he was not. Someone is not telling the whole truth and I would suspect Aristide would not lie about why he is no longer the President. After all there was no election that voted him out no matter what Harkin says.

[windansea]

19. sorry but I'll trust Harkin over Aristade n/t

[Bandit]

71. Well then who won the Democratic held recall election?

?????????????????? Have Harkin get back okay?

[Say_What]

29. The WH could clear up all the BS by printing the letter and

then posting it for the world to review the signatures, language, etc. But the WH is in it up their eyes with LIES as usual.

Kerry is now calling for an investigation and the WH responded the way they always do--by attacking Aristide!

CARICOM denounced the *resignation* as well, that means they won't recognize another so-called *goverment*. The OAS has a similar article in their charter. Think this all stems from the dozens of US coups that happened all over Latin America and the Caribbean.

Drip, drip, drip.... :evilgrin:

[NYC]

8. Coercion.

Coercion and threats instead of kidnapping?

[Loonman]

11. Rangel backs off

So what is it Chuck? Make up your mind.

http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/content.asp?y=2004&dt=0303&pub=Utusan_Express&sec=World&pg=wo_04.htm

[daleo]

16. If he went willingly, why would he lie about it now?

Claiming he is crazy doesn't count. We now know Hussein was telling the truth about WMD and Bushco was lying. The logical thing to assume is that Aristide is telling the truth, and Bushco is lying, just like last time.

After all, Bushco has a track record of lying to achieve 'regime change' in sovereign states. Bush will lie, Powell will lie, Rummy will lie - they will all lie, they are all proven liars.

[Loonman]

17. Pride/hubris

n/t

[bobbyboucher]

26. Bullshit.

Sorry, you have no cred.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

30. Quality not quantity. n/t

[windansea]

20. resignation remorse

who do you trust more?? Harkin or Aristide??

no brainer for me

[leanings]

21. It doesn't matter.

Whatever facts or retractions or clarifications come out in the future are immaterial, at least as far as the DU Zeitgeist goes. The DU line will be that the CIA instigated a rebellion against Aristide culminating in his being forced from Haiti by threats of physical violence against him and his family by US Marines.

Of course, there's no evidence to support this theory other than the statements of Aristide himself, and Dems are already distancing themselves from those. But people want to believe it, and so they will.

[windansea]

24. you got that right n/t

[Tinoire]

25. Both of you are being invited to weigh in here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1181861

I want to make sure you are aware of the invitation.

[leanings]

35. I'm well aware of that invitation

and I decline. I don't have anywhere near the familiarity with this subject that others have displayed. I'm also not "pro-coup" and I resent being portrayed as such. Maybe it did go down like it's being called here; I don't know. But I haven't seen a shred of evidence that it did. The only arguments that I've seen that support this theory are that the rebels seem to have had M-16's, which means nothing, and the statements of Aristide, which are full of holes. Sure, there's motive, but there are others with motive to remove Aristide, are there not?

One thing that strikes me is that Aristide hired a US firm to provide executive protection. When a country's leader finds it necessary to hire foreign nationals to provide his last line of security, it's a pretty sure sign that he's in a tenuous situation. And if Aristide suspected the US was behind his ouster, why would he have hired an American company to protect him?

Would the US military forcibly kidnap a head of state with only one helicopter full of troops? What if Aristide loyalists had decided to put up a fight? How would that have been reported?

If the CIA was slick enough to put together this whole operation, why was Aristide making calls that would have blown it wide open only a few hours after he landed? Why wasn't he dead or otherwise silenced? Why would rebels be supplied with American weapons instead of AKs and other small arms widely available on the world market and not in any way linked with the US?

With intelligence assets stretched to the limit, who would give the go-ahead for an op like that?

Why are Dems backing away from Aristides statements, with Harkin disavowing them entirely and Rangel saying they're open to interpretation?

I'm not promoting a point of view. I'm asking questions and questioning the DU tendency for everyone to automatically reject Occam's Razor and accept the most conspiratorial scenario possible. There is no critical analysis of anti-US claims, and any other explanation is rent to shreds on such flimsy pretexts as "seems like a classic CIA op" and "the rebels had M-16s".

I mean, Jesus people. We've got a hellaciously bad President in the White House, and he's surrounded by some scheming sons of bitches. But I think folks here are ready to throw Karl Rove in a river and see if he floats.

[Loonman]

39. Good points

:thumbsup:

[Tinoire]

43. Aristide has been in a tenuous situtation ever since he took office

He came out of nowhere and beat Marc Bazin, a World Bank official, into whose candidacy the US had pumped millions. His win literally stunned the US agencies which had gone there to rubber-stamp Bazin's win. They did not expect the ignorant peasants to see past their propaganda.

Aristide was already ousted once by the military people, left overs from the Duvalier dictatorship and when he returned, disbanded an unneeded Army that had only been used to keep the people in check.

There's a lot more evidence to a coup and it's been building up for months, years. The CIA's complicity in the first coup is on record. It's the same people involved all over again- dusted off the old plans but not quite as clever as the first administration.

The rest of your questions are answered throughout many of the threads here. Your first post, unfortunately, certainly did not clearly come across as being merely inquisitive.

If you openly ask your questions in that thread, you'll get good answers. If you are really interested in answers, that is.

WMDs, Iraq, Venezuela, 9-11, PNAC- we were ahead of those stories and have been with this one too. The information is out there but it's a lot to absorb. Some of us, have no life other than to absorb this information & discuss it and use it as an encyclopedic reference when certain events happen. Your need to ask so many questions is frankly envied.

[eablair3]

32. Answer Why Aristide or his wife, a US Citizen, cannot leave & speak

if they willingly went on this plane, why can't reporters visit them in the CAR?

why can't the wife, Mildred, a US Citizen, be free to leave there and travel to the US (or anywhere she wants)?

Why can't the wife be heard from at all? She's a U.S. Citiizen who knows her rights?

If Aristide is "free" and did this freely, how come he was not allowed to make phone calls during his 20-hour plane ride?

If Aristide willingly resigned for the good of his people and country, how come they only had a prepared written statement that was read by others? Why can't we hear and see video of Aristide willingly doing this?

And, why did U.S. Special Forces come in the middle of the night on an early Sunday morning to invade Haitian government and whisk away the Haitian President who is not allowed contact with the outside world.

The Haitian President said repeatedly the day and week before that he was going no where.

Why haven't reporters from any news organization in the world been able to visit with Aristide and interview him and his wife if they are "free"?

[leanings]

36. Cites?

Who's keeping them from traveling and getting access to reporters? How do you know? Why was Aristide allowed to contact CNN, Waters, Randall-Robinson, Harkin, Jesse Jackson, and Charlie Rangel if he's being held incommunicado? From whence do you get your claim about SF being involved in Haiti in any capacity? Why do you accept Aristide's claims without a smidgen of critical thought?

on edit:

I guess I didn't answer any of your questions. I certainly don't know any answers. But I'll hazard another theory other than Aristide being semi-kidnapped and held kinda-incommundicado-he cut and run. Pressure got to him. I mean, what he was saying was true-if he'd stayed in place there might have been a fight for Port-au-Prince in which many Haitians and possibly Aristide himself would have been killed, right? Correct me if I'm wrong there. So he gets while he can, and later regrets it. So he makes up this story. And he doesn't want to go too deeply into it because he knows it won't hold up.

Of course, I'll say it again: I don't know. And neither do you or anyone else. But I think the explanation I've forwarded is more plausible. If there are holes you can point out, do so. It's an educational experience for me too. But real holes, not "Aristide would never do such a thing".

[Loonman]

37. Because you must toe the party line if you are a Dem

No unclean thoughts. No thinking that things might not be as they appear.

;)

[leanings]

40. Correction:

No thinking that things might not NOT be as they appear. :)

[eablair3]

41. Do you really contend that no news organizations want to interview him?

It's just common sense. Do you think that some news organizations some where in the world would be interested in interviewing Aristide and his wife at this point?

Are you really contending that none of them want to?

Are you contending that it's not a big enough story and that no media is interested in it?

Why can't they interview him? Why haven't they interviewed him with video in a free atmosphere?

The reports are that a sympathizer provided a cell phone to Aristide and that's how he got the phone calls out. That's gone now.

Yes, critically think about this.

Why are you accepting Scotty's, Powell's, Bush's, Rummy's, Roger Noriega's statements on this? And, do you also accept what all the pundits on FoxNews say?

Yes, let's critically think about this.

You didn't answer why no news organization has been allowed in to interview Aristide and his wife in a free atmosphere on video or live? Think about that.

If Aristide willingly left, why didn't he make a speech to his people telling them why is was leaving?? Why was it just a reading of an alleged written statement by him after he had been whisked away by US military in the middle of the night in a US government plane when he not even allowed to raise the window shade let alone call his officials and others?

[leanings]

45. Do you contend that you've read and understand my post?

News organizations are clamoring at his door. He's not answering. There are two explanations for that:

1. He's being held by a joint team of French, US and Central African Republic military and intelligence specialists who are carefully screening his contacts with the outside world, allowing him to talk only to such mouthpieces as Anderson Cooper and Charlie Rangel.

2. He doesn't want to talk to the media.

Critical thinking on the cell phone issue-your theory:

Said shadowy French/US/CAR team has kidnapped Aristide from his own palace after a brilliantly engineered coup that has the whole world fooled save DU. After his kidnapping, he's whisked away to a waiting plane. But, somehow, a brave Aristide supporter (on the plane?) slips him a cell phone. (Maybe one of the F/US/CAR operatives went to the bathroom while they were supposed to be watching him.) Aristide quietly slips away and makes speedy, desperate phone calls to Maxine Waters, Charlie Rangel, his lawyer, and an activist before he's discovered and his cell phone is seized. Later, he's...well...somehow able to get another cell phone and makes a secret call to CNN...well, I guess it wasn't secret...but anyway, that cell phone has been seized and Aristide is incommunicado once again!

Or: He doesn't want to talk to the press.

[eablair3]

47. he doesn't want to talk to the press?

I doubt that. Aristide is the one who made the calls when he could to get the word out. I think he'd love to talk to the press. I notice you have no cites to support your claim that "he doesn't want to talk to the press" or "he doesn't want to talk to the media". Or, that "He's not answering" his door, even though media is "clamoring at his door" to inteview him. Are you serious?

There is no telling where or who gave him the cell phone.

Perhaps, if some media that he would choose (if he was really free) would be allowed to interview him, we wouldn't be left specualting about it, and engaging in what you think is "Critcal" thinking.

If he's free, he should be able to choose which media he wants to visit him, right?

Why hasn't any media been given access to him, face to face?

And, what about his wife who is a U.S. citizen?

[leanings]

53. There's no evidence that he's TRYING to talk to the press

There is evidence that he was ABLE to talk to the press and DOING so, tho; the multiple phone calls he made all day yesterday. So altho neither of us have any cites (because none exist at this point), I can point to obvious evidence that he was able to communicate with the outside world all day yesterday, including a long interview on CNN. If his access was being controlled, he wouldn't have had the several opportunities to speak that he's taken advantage of thus far. Thus, if he's ABLE to talk to the press, and if the press wants to talk to him (which they certainly do), it's logical to conclude that he doesn't WANT to talk to the press.

Again, neither of us know what's going on for sure. But I think that the assumption that he's being held incommunicado against his will is a little far-fetched considering the multiple communications he's made with the outside world over a long period of time yesterday. If he was making clandestine calls on a smuggled cell phone, why would that phone not have been taken away from him before he called CNN? It just does not compute.

[eablair3]

65. he's telling people he knows "to tell the world" what has happened to him

in the few times he's been able to get word out, ...he's telling people he knows "to tell the world" what has happened to him.

He wants to talk to the press. You're really having to reach with this.

[leanings]

69. OK

Simply explain how and why he was able to "get word out" the few times that he did if he's been kidnapped and is being held hostage by the US and French governments. I know that nothing here is clear, but at least postulate a reasonable theory.

[eablair3]

46. responding to your edit

I think you raise points worth considering. I have tried to consider such points. And, it's hard to figure out exactly what's going on what with all these people in power and in the media denying it all.

But, I've tried to carefully read up on the background and the history of the situation and those involved in it. You try to look at the facts that you know, for sure, and then make a best and educated guess about what happened. If he "cut and run" due to the pressure, why don't they return the elected leader if that's what he wants, or at least allow him to travel back to his country on his own?

Again, why can't any media org's be allowed to meet with him face to face and interview him? Why haven't they already done this?

Why can't his wife give interviews? She was not shy about it before.

Who do you think supplied the convicted criminals that headed up the opposition (Chamblain, Phillipe) with the American M-16s, M-60s and the new uniforms, boots and helmets that you see on TV?

Think about all this. Plus, there is so much more. If you're really interested, I'd go into more detail and provide you some links for the background, etc.

[leanings]

48. Just because he's not traveling and not giving interviews

doesn't mean he's not being "allowed" to.

And US weapons don't mean anything. You'll see a lot of Palestinians carrying M-16s, but it doesn't mean the US is supporting the intifada. Weapons have a bad tendency of staying around once you've distributed them. I saw a pic of a Karen rebel the other day with a 40 year old US XM177 carbine.

[eablair3]

50. Why hasn't there been a face-to-face interview?

Why hasn't there been a face-to-face interview with Aristide?

Why hasn't there been a face-to-face interview with Mildred Aristide,
his wife?

those weapons and the uniforms and the helmets and the boots that these rebels are wearing are not 40 years old. good try.

[leanings]

57. whew...OK.

Maybe, now try this on for size, just maybe-he doesn't want to talk to the press. That explanation makes a lot more sense than your scenario, for reasons I've outlined repeatedly.

I wasn't attempting to claim that the weapons the rebels were using were 40 years old, altho I doubt you'd know the difference if they were. My point was that US arms are all over the world and readily available to anyone with cash. Just because the rebels are using them doesn't mean they're being supported by the US. Unless someone can provide serial numbers to trace individual lots of weapons, the national origin of those weapons doesn't even suggest anything. The Iraqi police, for example are getting brand new Austrian made Glocks and Romanian AKs, but they're not being provided by Austria and Romania.

[eablair3]

62. weapons were acknowledged by US military to be American

The U.S. military has now acknwoledged that the weapons "may have" been American and are weapons that the U.S. shipped to the Dominican Republic last year.

This was in an aritcle at the Boston Globe.

The representative denied that they supplied them to the opposition. They claim not to know how opposition got them.

I find it hard to believe that the U.S. military "doesn't know how" the weapons that are theirs and that they acknowledge being sent to the DR last year -- ended up in the hands of these opposition criminals.

____

couldn't find the link for the Boston Globe artilce, but did find it reprinted at Common Dreams:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0301-01.htm
"A senior US military official acknowledged that some American weapons sold to the neighboring Dominican Republic last year may have ended up in the hands of opposition forces in Haiti, but stressed that they were not provided as part of some covert US activity and could have been acquired from the Dominican military."

snip

"The senior US military official said a small number of US special forces conducted antiterrorism exercises, called Operation Jaded Task, with the Dominican military in February 2003, a program he described as ``routine.''

According to news reports at the time, the exercise apparently came as a surprise to the country's foreign minister, who publicly denounced the operation. The US official said 20,000 M-16s were provided to the Dominican forces to help the country guard its border with Haiti and that all the weapons could not be accounted for."

[leanings]

68. Why do you find this hard to believe?

"I find it hard to believe that the U.S. military "doesn't know how" the weapons that are theirs and that they acknowledge being sent to the DR last year -- ended up in the hands of these opposition criminals."

The weapons are no longer property of the US. They were given or sold to the DR. Again, I've also seen German G3 rifles in the hands of the rebels. That doesn't lead me to believe the Germans are involved. Happens all the time, all over the world. Same with the joint exercise. I'm sure SOUTHCOM had SF involved in exercises in a dozen countries last year alone. Nothing here is particularly peculiar or out of the ordinary.

[dax]

99. You are really missing the POINT

If the United States believed in promoting Democracy instead of using TERRORISTS as a surrogate army as they have done in Haiti, they would have sent a few helicopters of Marines to talk to Philippe and gang who seem to be on familliar terms with them, and tell him to quit burning peoples houses and chopping them up, organize a party and run for office to get Aristide out-it would not have taken more marines than they have over there NOW to protect the legitimate HAitian Government. Then Aristide would not have had to "resign"or be kidnapped- That is the POINT-INTERVENTION is the POINT. US armed the THUGS, then said Aristide had to leave because the THUGS were going to kill people THAT IS THE POINT

[lostnfound]

63. But caretaker told same story to Australian press the DAY BEFORE Aristide

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=391034

So..either:
1) Aristide is lying, AND able to convince Maxine Waters & family friend Randall Robinson of it...AND the caretaker is lying also...
or
2) Aristide is telling the truth.

[Loonman]

42. Amnesty Intl. HR Report: Haiti

We all know what big liars Amnesty I is.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Hti-summary-eng

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. Stop confusing us.

That Amnesty International report doesn't lay out a simple black and white picture of the situation, therefore, I choose to ignore it.

[Oilwellian]

55. Oh wow, look at what they said about us

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Usa-summary-eng

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. And what is the conclusion you draw from that report?

[rman]

105. same Amnesty refused to support "The revolution will not be televised"

http://www.chavezthefilm.com/html/film/amnesty.htm

[Judi Lynn]

106. Isn't that sad?

They refused to stand up for something they KNEW was right, and had planned originally to include in their program, and simply cancelled out because they were "'fraid" they might be visited by Venezuelan "opposition" "persuaders" bearing bombs, knives, guns, vicious dogs, clubs, chains, and dirty looks.

Just what are they in business to promote? Pursuit of truth on only fair, sunny days? They look damned amateurish, like "effete snobs!"

Link from rman's link, describing the entire shameful situation:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1090788,00.html

[Oilwellian]

56. I see the coup supporters are at it again

I just wonder, what's in it for you personally?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

58. It's comforting to think that our government is not really a piece of shit

Deep down people still think we're the good guys. Around the world people know what's up though.

[htuttle]

73. That's an unfair comparison

I mean, you can step over shit. You can avoid stepping in shit.

Our government, on the other hand, will reach up and grab your foot! It will chase you home and burn down your house!

So I'm not sure your comparison is really very fair.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

76. My most sincere apologies to anyone

or any feces offended by my reckless words.

[PATRICK]

64. Like a rape victim

He didn't shout "coup!" as he was whisked away. Apparently by talking to American advisors and assorted military "helpers" he was showing he really "wanted it" all along.

If he hadn't talked to the US and entrenched himself I suppose the other plan was to let him get massacred with his family.

But let's denigrate his character and show consent, not look at the "pro-democratic" forces and elite American assistance to restore "democracy".

[TankLV]

77. THere's the truth - and then there's bushco's statements.

I guess you can consider it "2 versions".

[Tinoire]

80. And that about sums up this thread.

:thumbsup:

[windansea]

84. Harkin is bushco???

amusing,,,,,,,,

[0007]

87. Get real!!

[windansea]

88. about what??

the conflict between Waters/Harkin statements in regard to Aristide?

easily understood if you can read

[TankLV]

108. Grasping at straws, I see.

Must be horrible to be on the losing side of logic and an argument.

I certainly can read - and from Harkins statement's context, he's actually supporting Aristide's claims, not bunkerboy and his band of thugs.

Can you understand context?

[windansea]

109. heh!

what context? Harkin spoke with him, and says he wasn't kidnapped and resigned voluntarily...were their pressures?? yep...they most likely told him they couldn't guarantee his safety, the palace would be overun, and there would be a bloodbath. They asked him to draft and sign a letter of resignation which he gave to them later at the airport, the text of which is now posted here in another thread (both versions)

Reading Harkin's statement does not appear to support contentions by many that he was kidnapped or forced to resign at gunpoint.

If you think Harkin believes otherwise, produce some more quotes or write him for an explanation...the meaning and context of his words are pretty clear to me.




:hi:

[struggle4progress]

110. Oh yeah right ...

Aristide, caribbean opponent of military government, asks USA to fly him off for asylum in glorious CAR, where the folk brought to power by the Mar'03 coup warn him to shut-up and stop criticizing USA. See any problem with this? I mean, does CAR seem like a natural choice?

USA says South Africa had denied asylum request; South Africa immediately responds that no asylum request was made, expresses concern about a kidnapping, and asks for an international investigation. See any problem with this? I mean, why would they want to distance themselves from a wonderful humanitarian rescue?

US troops say they have no orders to stop looting/killing. Death squad rebels announce they are in charge. My local 11PM news, generally a reliable parrot of the official line, notes that rebels have not laid down their arms and that the killing continues with US troops there. Meanwhile, US fleet circles island and "repatriates" refugees. See any problem with this? I mean, does this sound like "peace-keeping" to you?

What credibility does the Administration have today? I see an ugly old scenario, replayed.

[rman]

104. "after the Bush administration send troops to support the rebels"

that is.
Where the rebels use mass violence on the Haitian population to get their political way, iow the rebels are terrorist - supported by Bush.