Honduras: U.S. Urges Support of Neighbors for New Leader

[Judi Lynn]

Source: New York Times

Honduras: U.S. Urges Support of Neighbors for New Leader
By GINGER THOMPSON
Published: December 4, 2009

The United States urged members of the Organization of American States to put the coup in Honduras behind them and support the efforts of the newly elected president to heal the politically divided country. At a meeting on Friday in Washington, Ambassador Carmen Lomellín told her counterparts that the presidential election Sunday showed that Hondurans “wish to move forward and re-establish democratic normality.” Most other countries were not convinced, saying they would not recognize elections held by an illegitimate government. “In our judgment, Honduras is not free,” Ambassador José E. Pinelo of Bolivia said. “In our countries leaders govern, not puppets.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/world/americas/05briefs-Honduras.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

[rpannier]

1. “In our countries leaders govern, not puppets.”

Nice.
I like it

[yava]

6. so finally, the US hand is dealt!

It was always the same cards but now they are in the press!

[Judi Lynn]

2. Latin American Parliament suspends Honduran congress

Latin American Parliament suspends Honduran congress
2009-12-05 10:56:52

PANAMA CITY, Dec. 4 (Xinhua) -- The 25th Ordinary Assembly of the Latin American Parliament (Parlatino) decided on Friday to suspend the Honduran Congress from it, for supporting the coup against ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya.

Most of the Latin American deputies voted in favor of the suspension, Parlatino Executive Secretary Humberto Pelaez from Columbia said.

"The suspension measure was approved by 103 votes in favor, three against and seven abstentions," Pelaez told a press conference after the Ordinary Assembly in Panama City.

Pelaez urged the Honduran congressmen to think over and work to reinstate the constitutional order in their country.

More:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x27387

[EFerrari]

15. Good news!

[Igel]

20. So, let me get this straight.

In Bolivia, for example, leaders--not puppets--govern.

But the Honduran Congress, because it won't do what the leaders of other countries want, can't be considered a "real" government. In other words, it's not puppet-like enough.

Although I suppose the answer would be that they don't want it to be a puppet--they just want it to do naturally, out of its own desire, what they want it to do. But, you know, that's exactly how I view my 5-year-old. I don't want him to misbehave, nor do I want him to things just because I tell him. I simply want him to do what I want him to do without being asked or coerced--sort of self-motivated, self-imposed thralldom. At least for now; when he's a bit older, he'll be allowed to have a bit of independence.

Yeah, it's dehumanizing and strips away some of my kid's independence. But at 5, he's not really able to be responsible for what he does, his brain hasn't matured, he hasn't thought things through and probably can't, and instead of being dehumanizing simply acknowledges that humans develop as they age and so what's "human" at 2 years, at 5 years, at 10 years, at 20 years, and at 50 years can be a bit different. Now, to do that to adults your own age, in another country, in the name of being progressive?

I guess they're simply not politically developed enough. I'll leave ambiguous whether that applies to the Honduran Congress or Pelaez et al.

[EFerrari]

22. Calling on the Honduran Congress to honor its oath of office

is not puppeteering.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

28. The Honduran Congress is obligated to reinstate a President who openly defied the law?

[AlphaCentauri]

36. That has been discussed before

there is no single word in the Honduran constitution that the supreme court or congress could depose the representative of the executive branch using the Army.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

42. While I disagree with the method in which they removed him, the fact remains

he broke the law, which is why Congress refused to reinstate him for the remainder of his term.

[AlphaCentauri]

45. He didn't broke any law

what he wanted to do was an opinion poll, no law prohibit that.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

46. The Court specifically prohibited him from doing so.

[AlphaCentauri]

47. The court pretended to be above the constitution

if the court could proof that Zelaya couldn't run an opinion poll then the court has to proof that the constitution mandates them to remove Zelaya using the army.
Can they proof that?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

48. The Court doesn't have the authority to stop a President from

attempting to circumvent the law through a referendum (and, let's face it, that's what this poll was about)?

As far as the use of the army, I agree that it was an extreme and unwise move on their part. However, that doesn't change the fact that he was openly defying the Court, the Congress, and his own party by making this move, and that his reinstatement was put up for a vote and overwhelmingly denied.

[AlphaCentauri]

49. The use of the army was unconstitutional plain and simple

it was not and extreme or unwise move, so how congress and the supreme court sanction the constitutional transgressors when they are the ones doing it?

The poll didn't have the power of a referendum because it would not change anything, that is what distinguish a poll from a referendum, the constitution would give the power to a referendum to change laws or even the constitution but apparently the referendum is not mention in the hondurans constitution which imply that an opinion poll is meaningless from any constitutional point of view. So what Zelaya did wasn't intended to change anything but to get the peoples opinion on a subject that interest him and congress.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

50. Frankly, it's unclear to me whether or not the use of the military was unconstitutional

though, even if it were constitutional, it was unwise for the Court to order the military to carry out the action. It conjures up too many negative images from the past and, as this board is proof, sends people into a tizzy about how things are reverting back to the way they were in the 1980s.

Your argument that he didn't intend to change the constitution seems utterly ridiculous. If he hadn't had a desire to do so, he wouldn't have ordered the poll. Intent was clearly shown thus the Court was entirely within its bounds in ordering his removal.

[AlphaCentauri]

54. Read the constitution

Art. 272. "Las Fuerzas Armadas de Honduras, son una Institución Nacional de carácter permanente, esencialmente profesional, apolítica, obediente y no deliberante.
Se instituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberanía de la República, mantener la paz, el orden público y el imperio de la Constitución, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la República."

Article 272. "The Armed Forces of Honduras, is a permanent national institution, essentially professional, apolitical, obedient and non-deliberative.
They were established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in office of President of the Republic. "

Then comes the question in the opinion poll wich never implicated a direct change in the constitution or Zelayas re-election, it was about an opinion to see if people would agree to create another poll to ask people if they would like to create a national assembly, so no direct changes were suggested by that particular opinion poll:

“¿Esta de usted de acuerdo que en las elecciones generales de noviembre de 2009 se instale una cuarta urna para decidir sobre la convocatoria a una Asamblea Nacional Constituyente que emita una nueva Constitución de la República?”.

"Do you agreement that in the general election of November 2009 there should be installed a fourth ballot to decide on the convocation of a Constituent Assembly to issue a new Constitution of the Republic?"

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

56. Now if you could be so kind as to point out

where using the military to oust a President who is openly defying the rule of law is prohibited, that would be great. As I said, I already think it was an unwise move, however, I've yet to see anything that makes it specifically unconstitutional, as you claim.

Secondly, a national assembly to what end? The kicker for me is, even Zelaya's own party seemingly recognizes this, yet you refuse to.

[AlphaCentauri]

57. I did already, now can you proof that he violated any law?

the poll was not done so where is the smoking gun to proof that he did violate the law, none zero nada, he did not even had a chance so that by it self invalidate any argument that he violated any laws or the constitution, there was no crime at all. It is just absurd to convict someone of something that never was accomplish

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

58. No, actually, you didn't.

but if you'd like to take another crack at it, feel free.

With that said, by ordering the public opinion poll, he signalled his intent to alter the unchangeable articles of the Honduran constitution, which deal with the eligibility of presidents for reelection and abrogation of the constitution. As I said, what really gets me about this is that even the vast majority of his own party's representatives agree that he clearly signalled his intent. That should tell you something, no matter how far Left you see yourself.

[AlphaCentauri]

35. That is exactly what the US government has done since president Polk

To look down on latin americans as kids or mentally challenge people.

[edwardian]

40. Analogies concerning your 5 year old

are dehumanizing to the notions adults live under. Democratic institutions have nothing in common with your silly and blatantly wrong analogy. Go to your lurker den. Looks like you are not politically developed enough that you would support a get over it attitude when a grievous injustice has been done to all the adults in Honduras.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

27. I've got to ask, at what point do we say Honduras is in charge of its own fate?

After all, the actions of the military were in keeping with the rule of the Court, and the decision to reinstate Zeyala (even after he broke the law) was left up to the Congress.

[fascisthunter]

65. good! (nt)

[boppers]

3. It's going to take more than one election.

It's going to take several, with lots of public transparency, and public participation, before the Honduran government earns trust back in the region as a democracy.

Removing presidents mid-term is risky business, regardless of the president... and when it's done under cover of secrecy, well, everybody has reason to be suspicious.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

29. Fair enough, but this was about as non-secretive as a coup can get.

[boppers]

41. Well, they could have released the arrest orders to Congress, so they could vote on removal, first.

... but maybe it wouldn't have been viewed as a coup then?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

43. I agree with that, however, when it was put up for a vote later on, Zeyala still lost.

[boppers]

44. 111 to 14? (I hadn't seen the vote numbers until just now).

That meets the Honduran constitutional limit of 2/3rds, and is also kind of shocking... Only 14?

[David__77]

4. The US is making a strategic mistake here.

It is playing right into the hands of the socialist/anti-imperialist current in Latin America. And, for that, I am somewhat thankful. It is better than if the US were being duplicitous and covert about its support for the fascist coup.

[EFerrari]

23. Both are happening. There was a foiled attempt on Evo Morales' life

and the money was tracked right back to USAID money in Santa Cruz. CNN missed that one, I think it was in April.

But I agree with you and it saddens me very much that the opportunity to establish a good relationship with Latin America has been pissed away so quickly. More than I can even say.

edit for clarity

[tritsofme]

5. Zelaya has no claim to the office after January.

The issue of succession needed to be resolved.

Both the dates and the candidates for this election were chosen before the coup, the results offer a way out and forward.

[rpannier]

7. Forward for what/whom???

Both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have cited the present Honduran leadership with human rights abuses.
The targetting of political groups opposed to the government.

Not sure how you figure this is moving forward.

Reminds me of the 1980's

[fasttense]

8. Well, we can NOT look back, don't you know? We have to constantly look forward so

that the criminals can get away. :sarcasm:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. You are taking the pragmatic view, which the US gov concurs with

The ideologues will never agree with you.

[EFerrari]

14. That's not pragmatism, it's mendacity.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Whether you and I accept the election or not, its being recognized

So it is the pragmatic course. Truthfulness is irrelevant.

[EFerrari]

24. This abortion of an election is not recognized by anyone but the US

and its clients in Latin America, to my knowledge.

Obama's Latin American people are failing him big time because he had all the goodwill in the world when he came into office. What has gone down in little Honduras has changed that, completely.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. It will be over time, as others have pointedf out.

OAS and others missed an opportunity by not providing inspectors etc.

I expect the incoming president to pardon both sides at some point and for Honduras to try and rebuild.

[EFerrari]

38. There were plenty of people on the ground and they all observed a farce.

The incoming "president" has a huge 15% mandate and democracy in Honduras has been set back decades.

That is what our government did.

[EFerrari]

13. A fraudulent election is not a way forward for democracy in Honduras.

It's a farce and everyone knows it's a farce. That our government supports this farce is humiliating and there goes the window of goodwill for Obama in Latin America.

[L. Coyote]

16. Previous LATEST: Honduras: More Evidence of Election Fraud = Dec-02-09

Honduras: More Evidence of Election Fraud
Dec-02-09 - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4167920

===========================================
Manipulating the Honduran Election Results (UPDATED WITH VOTE SAMPLE)
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_57656.shtml

from LA: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x27400

[EFerrari]

17. Gracias!

[L. Coyote]

32. ALSO Dec-02-09 06: Honduras Congress rejects Zelaya's reinstatement

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4168840

[EFerrari]

55. Video of the turnout in San Pedro de Sula:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x410473

[fascisthunter]

66. yeah... you tell those Hondurans what's good for them

look ahead... nothing to see here

[placton]

9. another OMABANATION

[IndianaGreen]

10. Obama imperialism!

[roody]

25. +1 for the graphic

[Vidar]

11. Continuing our fine tradition of supporting deathsquads & corruption,

[Kitsune]

18. Wow. I'm kind of amazed and yet I probably shouldn't be.

What a fucking travesty that we not only let this shit go on right in our backyard, we fucking encourage it.

And people wonder why I'm losing faith in democracy. :(

[EFerrari]

19. When there is a new wave of undocumented workers from Honduras

displaced by this crime no one should be surprised.

[roody]

26. I am very happy to see the US so isolated.

[EFerrari]

31. I am too and it's a surreal position to be in.

[rabs]

30. In a nutshell, here is Hillary/Obama's policy on Honduras

Military coup d' etat + a sham election = democracy.

Btw, in the past, and now, democracy in Honduras translated to Spanish = democraCIA.

:grr:

[EFerrari]

37. Yes, you are right.

DemocraCIA.

I don't think I'll get over this one. :grr:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

51. Usually a coup involves seizing power, which the military didn't do

It simply carried out the orders of the Court.

[Judi Lynn]

52. You consistantly refuse to deal with the facts the same few people in Honduras control EVERYTHING.

The rest of us have known this for a long time.

It could be you know it and are refusing to admit it, but what would be the purpose if you're not dealing with the facts?

Any sober research will lead you to the same information, as in this sentence:

Honduras has always been run by a handful of families who control the news media, economy and every power sphere from the military to the Supreme Court.

More:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/22/ap/latinamerica/main5737751.shtml

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

53. You consistently refuse to deal with the fact that the military did not seize control of the state

which, by the way, was all that I was pointing out.

[roody]

73. You can find lots of opportunity to educate yourself

at the Latin American forum. Or we could plan a DU meetup in Honduras.

[L. Coyote]

33. TIME: After Honduras: Obama's Latin American Policy Looks Like Bush's

After Honduras: Obama's Latin American Policy Looks Like Bush's
By Tim Padgett Thursday, Dec. 03, 2009 - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1945440,00.html


After months of delay, Arturo Valenzuela was finally confirmed as Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs last month. But for a job with such a long title, he may find it's short on clout these days. Ostensibly, Valenzuela is President Obama's new point man on Latin America; in reality, that job looks to be under the control of Republicans in Congress and conservatives inside Obama's own diplomatic corps. In fact, when it comes to U.S. policy in Latin America — as events this week in Honduras suggest — it's often hard to tell if George W. Bush isn't still President.

Granted, Latin America is on Obama's back burner as he tackles Afghanistan. But next year he plans to tackle immigration reform — an issue, like drug trafficking and free trade, that's heavily related to how well the U.S. helps Latin America build more equitble democratic institutions (the region has the world's worst gap between rich and poor). Yet as he ends his first year in office, Obama seems to have ceded Latin America strategy to right-wing Cold Warriors whose thinking — including the idea that coups are still an acceptable means of regime change — is no more equipped to help bring the region into the 21st century than the ideology of left-wing Marxists is.

That's been most apparent in Honduras, where the country's congress this week refused to reinstate democratically elected President Manuel Zelaya, a leftist who was ousted in a June 28 military coup. The Obama Administration condemned Zelaya's overthrow as an affront to Latin America's fledgling democracies. But conservatives led by GOP South Carolina Sen. Jim DeMint — who blocked Valenzuela's confirmation to protest Obama's stance — and Bush Administration holdovers such as the U.S.'s ambassador to the Organization of American States, Lewis Amselem (who was finally replaced this week), pushed Obama into brokering a deal .......

[IndianaGreen]

39. Obama's policies are worse than Bush!

It was Obama, and not Bush, who is expanding a network of military bases in Colombia. It was Obama, not Bush, that seems committed to reestablishing America hegemony in Latin America, by force if need be.

Obama is keeping the School of Americans open at Fort Benning, cranking out new generations of murderers and torturers.

[NuttyFluffers]

59. of course coup instigators would urge for more int'l support; it's better cover for a crime.

waiting for America to get its head out of its ass before it completely implodes... waiting, waiting...

[Freddie Stubbs]

60. AP: Brazil signals recognition of Honduran election

RIO DE JANEIRO -- A top Brazilian official has signaled that Latin America's largest nation may recognize the Honduran candidate who won last weekend's post-coup presidential election.

Dilma Rousseff is chief of staff for Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. Rousseff says the Central American country's Nov. 29 election should be considered separately from the June 28 coup that ousted ex-President Manuel Zelaya.

Previously, the government had said it would not recognize the election unless Zelaya was returned to office and allowed to serve out his term, which ends Jan. 27.

Rousseff told Brazilian television late Friday from Germany that the coup "is one thing" and "discussing the election" another.

more: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/AP/story/1367067.html

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

61. Interesting.

[totodeinhere]

67. I wonder who bought them off. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

64. Not according Marcelo Baumbach n/t

[anonymous171]

62. 1 call to the CIA and Zelaya could be back in power by the end of the week

I have no doubt that the Obama administration supports the coupsters .

[L. Coyote]

63. if his politics matched the President of Colombia or Peru, or another Pinocheletti.

[anonymous171]

68. I was assuming that the CIA actually worked for the government

and wasn't a rogue agency.

[EFerrari]

76. It's hard to call them "rogue" when they have at every point

carried out the policy of our owners.

[New Dawn]

69. This was clearly a US-backed coup all along.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

79. If I may...to what end?

[L. Coyote]

70. Brazil: No Recognition for New Honduras Government

December 8, 2009 - 8:43 a.m. ET - http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/12/08/world/AP-LT-Brazil-Honduras.html


BRASILIA, Brazil (AP) -- Brazil's presidential spokesman has reiterated that the country does not plan to recognize the incoming Honduran administration and denied that Brazil's president and chief of staff have made contradictory statements about the Central American nation's elections.

Marcelo Baumbach said Monday that President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva has made it clear he does not intend to recognize the outcome of Honduran elections that gave Porfirio Lobo the presidency after Manuel Zelaya was ousted and ended up holed up in the Brazilian Embassy there.

Baumbach made the comments three days after Brazilian presidential chief of staff Dilma Rousseff said Honduras' Nov. 29 elections ''will have to be considered.''

''One thing is dealing with the fact that there were elections and another is recognizing the legitimacy of the elections,'' Baumbach told reporters. ''And for now, Brazil does not recognize that legitimacy.''

''The president's position is clear,'' Baumbach said. ''Brazil does not intend to recognize a government elected in a process that was organized by an illegitimate government.''

.................

[L. Coyote]

71. Honduras' top anti-drug official killed

Zelaya is probably thinking he got off lucky! He used to be the top anti-drug official.

=================
Honduras' top anti-drug official killed
The Associated Press - Tuesday, December 8, 2009; 10:50 AM - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/08/AR2009120801664.html


TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras -- Honduran police say two gunmen riding motorcycles have shot and killed the country's top anti-drug official.

The victim is retired Gen. Julian Aristides Gonzalez, the general director of the Office for Combatting Drug Trafficking.

National police spokesman Orlin Cerrato says Gonzalez was traveling in his car when the motorcycles pulled up to the vehicle and opened fire at close range.

[Judi Lynn]

74. Thanks for posting the honest story, L. Coyote. So good to see this. n/t

[L. Coyote]

72. Mercosur rejects Honduran election

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/298395,mercosur-rejects-honduran-election.html


Montevideo - The presidents of Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela expressed Tuesday in Montevideo their "total" rejection of the recent general election in Honduras. Gathered in the Uruguayan capital for a summit of the South American trade bloc, Mercosur, the five presidents underlined that the election was organized under a de facto government, in the wake of the June 28 coup that ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya.

"(Voting) was carried out in an atmosphere of unconstitutionality, illegitimacy and illegality, dealing a hard blow to the democratic values of Latin America and the Caribbean," Mercosur leaders said in a statement.

...............

[Judi Lynn]

75. Mercosur is right. So good to see their position published. Thanks for this news. n/t

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

80. I've gotta ask this...you know that I have to....

If this can most accurately be portrayed as a military coup (it would be far more accurate to simply describe it as a removal from office, IMO), to what end was it carried out? What was so frightening to the United States, to the Court, to upper crust Hondurans, hell, to Zelaya's own party that supposedly caused them to stage a coup instead of simply waiting a few more months for his term to be up?

[L. Coyote]

77. Zelaya to stay in Honduras after all

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/zelaya-stay-honduras-after-all


The Mexican and Honduran authorities have announced that ousted Honduran president Manuel Zelaya will not travel to Mexico for the time being.

During a meeting with the Honduran interim government on Wednesday, Mr Zelaya reportedly agreed to travel to Mexico and apply for political asylum there. However, he has now decided he will not travel to Mexico as an asylum seeker because this would limit his ability to conduct political activities from abroad. ...........

===============
Ousted Honduran President to leave for exile in Mexico
2009-12-10 17:01 BJT - http://english.cctv.com/program/cctvnews/20091210/103995.shtml

Ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya will soon leave his country for exile in Mexico. ...............
The situation outside the embassy remains tense as troops continue guarding the surrounding streets. A Mexican government source says Zelaya was expected to arrive on Wednesday night.

[L. Coyote]

78. Honduras: Ousted pres. must go as private citizen

Honduras: Ousted pres. must go as private citizen
By FREDDY CUEVAS (AP) – 24 minutes ago - http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jAkMGKIUDg_ngUiZboxQbYj5_DPwD9CGHMD81


TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras — Honduras' coup-installed government said Thursday that there will be no deal for ousted leader Manuel Zelaya to leave the country unless he goes as a private citizen — not as the country's president.

Brazil criticized the interim government for its stance against Zelaya, who has been holed up at the South American nation's embassy in Tegucigalpa ever since he slipped back into Honduras nearly three months ago.

"This attitude of humiliation toward President Zelaya, to want him to sign documents (saying he is not president), is something I have never seen," Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim said. "It is totally unacceptable."

Late Wednesday, as news emerged of talks on a possible agreement letting Zelaya depart for Mexico, that country requested guarantees for his safe passage as a distinguished guest and sent a plane to Honduras to pick him up Zelaya.

Honduras' interim Foreign Minister Carlos Lopez said the aircraft was diverted to El Salvador, however, when it became clear Zelaya would only be allowed to leave if he accepts political asylum as a private citizen ........

............

[fascisthunter]

81. yeah... just forget about the fact that another dictator supported by the US

lives next to you... that went well the last time, didn't it?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

82. Doesn't the fact that Zelaya's own party refused to reinstate him

send up at least a few red flags and tell you that this situation isn't as black and white as some on this board would lead us to believe?

[L. Coyote]

83. New LATEST thread: Zelaya rejects Mexico asylum offer

demoleft - Thu Dec-10-09 03:45 PM
Zelaya rejects Mexico asylum offer
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4179573