Suspect in Nazi trial admits killings

[Adsos Letter]

Source: AP

AACHEN, Germany – A former member of the Nazi SS being tried for murder admitted in court Tuesday that he killed three Dutch civilians during World War II, but insisted he was following orders.

Heinrich Boere told the Aachen state court in a statement read by attorney Gordon Christiansen that he had killed a bicycle-shop owner, a pharmacist and another civilian in 1944 as a member of a Waffen SS hit squad.

"As a simple soldier, I learned to carry out orders," Boere said in his statement.

"And I knew that if I didn't carry out my orders I would be breaking my oath and would be shot myself."


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091208/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_nazi_hit_man;_ylt=AiQMsMduxyW_VA.CtMib5QlH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTNjOHJiY21kBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMjA4L2V1X2dlcm1hbnlfbmF6aV9oaXRfbWFuBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDNARwb3MDNARzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZXM

[superconnected]

1. Somehow I suspect he helped his rise into the SS hit squad

He wasn't just promoted there from the streets.

[naaman fletcher]

5. To be fair:

Well, not fair, I don't care what happens to this guy, but in fact you could just be promoted from the streets. In fact, a lot of the nastier work was done by guys "promoted from the street" because the mental disorder/nervous breakdown/suicide rate for people who did the murders was very high so after a while they started to get combat troops out of the nastier jobs.

[Adsos Letter]

7. Heavy alcohol consumption and/or anxiolitics often were part-and-parcel of these horrific killings.

[superconnected]

9. I'm not so sure, the Nazi's were the most organized Army ever.

This isn't like Iraq and Afghanistan hiring anyone. A high rank in the SS was a status symbol and people were competitive to get there.

This guy was on an SS hit squad. Somewhere along the line, I suspect he made a choice to be. This isn't the general army snipers who do get pulled from the best of enlisted men who were drafted, this is the SS and it's one of their secret hit squads. The drunk and suicidal soldiers killing Jews standing infront of a ditch were likely regular german army, not secret service hit squad men.

[naaman fletcher]

16. I think the definitiion hit squad is at issue here...

I doubt this was some sort of formal "hit squad" but rather 3-4 guys picked out and told "go kill this guy". But I could be wrong.

[roguevalley]

28. nuremburg defense is useless. drag him behind a car.

[Lautremont]

2. Following orders? Well that's all right then.

[Adsos Letter]

4. Yeah, it's an interesting attempt at justification

considering all of the legal/ethical/moral debate that has gone on over that defense since WWII.

[dnricci]

3. I am jewish

And while I am horrified and disgusted by the actions of the holocaust, he is just a soldier. It was well known that if you didn't follow orders both the individual and possibly their families would be killed for refusing orders. They would be brandished as Jewish sympathizers and thereby be executed for treason. I am certainly not condoning his actions, but in a time of war you don't always get to choose your side. How many innocent iraqi or afghan civilians have been killed with the start of the wars? Has anyone been put on trail, save a few. Soldiers are trained to follow orders without question, that does not make it ok, and there is probably a special place in hell reserved for people such as this, but it is the leaders that makes choices, not the grunts.

[Adsos Letter]

6. My Lai Pilot Hugh Thompson would probably disagree with you

that it is the leaders who make decisions, and not the grunts.

"They landed the helicopter in the line of fire between American troops and fleeing Vietnamese civilians and pointed their own guns at the U.S. soldiers to prevent more killings."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5133444

Edited to add (after some careful consideration of the flame-potential) a couple of other points:

My M-I-L is Jewish, and feels a definite connection to the Holocaust; however, the status of simply being Jewish doesn't IMHO ONLY automatically give you special credibility above others in judging those actions. If you, or close family members, were in Germany during WWII, then that statement would need to be modified.

American soldiers ARE trained to follow orders; they are also trained in the difference between a lawful order, and an unlawful one and, theoretically at least, one is protected from prosecution for failure to obey an unlawful order. This was obviously not the case in Germany during WWII.

I would argue, again IMHO ONLY that soldiers who commit atrocities, even under orders, are, in a broader sense, choosing a side.

[naaman fletcher]

8. Very True..

But I still believe that, for example, Cheney has more culpability for torture crimes then the men who actually carried them out.

[dnricci]

10. I agree with that as well

I believe bush and cheney need to be prosecuted for war crimes.

[superconnected]

11. I believe they need to be hung for war crimes. They murdered many.

Why should be Sadam Hussein get hung and not them. They each tortured and killed innocent civilians by their policies.

[Adsos Letter]

12. Absolutely! But it still doesn't give anyone a pass for commiting atrocities

especially when they recognize at the time that what they are doing is outside the "legitimate" conduct of warfare.

I will also agree that it is immoral to go after the "smaller fish" if we aren't going to go after the leaders. We did, at least, go after the main leadership at Nuremberg, although we turned our eyes away when it came to Nazi's with scientific or intelligence information which we could turn to our own advantage.

[dnricci]

13. Truly amazing story

However, this is America in 1968. We are talking about Germany in the 1930's. The likelihood of Thompson being executed on the spot by his own soldiers would have been slim to none. The Nazi's would never be as merciful or understanding. They clearly followed orders with little regard for the moral implications of their actions. America, at least on the surface were supposed to be the good guys. The ambiguity about what side the Nazi's were on didn't exist.

[Adsos Letter]

14. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and any number of members of the White Rose Society,

or those military men who took part in attempts to kill Hitler might disagree with you.

People have a moral responsibility for their actions, in my opinion.

[TheMadMonk]

24. Can you truthfully say you would see your family die, rather than...

...carry out an order to kill someone you know with absolute certainty will die, whether you are the one to pull the trigger or another does it?

And just for hoots, put it into a social context that makes white community feelings towards black skinned folk in the South seem like a Woodstock lovefest by comparison.

You mentioned Mai Lai in an earlier post. Care to elaborate on the judicial outcome of that little tea party? Hugh Thompson might have done the right thing, but what followed shat all over his heroism.

From Hugh Thompson's Wiki entry: "There, he was sharply criticized by Congressmen, in particular Chairman Mendel Rivers (D-SC), who were anxious to play down allegations of a massacre by American troops. Rivers publicly stated that he felt Thompson was the only soldier at My Lai who should be punished (for turning his weapons on fellow American troops) and unsuccessfully attempted to have him court-martialed. As word of his actions became publicly known, Thompson started receiving hate mail, death threats and mutilated animals on his doorstep."

When you succeed in getting your own little part of the world measures up, then and only then will you own the moral high ground from which to lambast the rest of the world. Until then this Atheist sayeth unto you, Mathew 7:3.

[Adsos Letter]

25. I am well aware of Hugh Thompson's fate. He still did the right thing.

Are you really arguing that moral heroism is only appropriate when a reward is anticipated?

Edited to add: You are also a bit selective on your citations The rest of the Wiki article on Thompson follows:

Exactly thirty years after the massacre, Thompson, Andreotta, and Colburn were awarded the Soldier's Medal (Andreotta posthumously), the United States Army's highest award for bravery not involving direct contact with the enemy. "It was the ability to do the right thing even at the risk of their personal safety that guided these soldiers to do what they did," then-Major General Michael Ackerman said at the 1998 ceremony. The three "set the standard for all soldiers to follow." Additionally on March 10, 1998, Senator Max Cleland (D-GA) entered a tribute to Thompson, Colburn and Andreotta into the record of the U.S. Senate. Cleland said the three men were, "true examples of American patriotism at its finest."<8>

Also in 1998, Thompson and Colburn returned to the village of My Lai, where they met some of the villagers they had rescued, including Thi Nhung and Pham Thi Nhanh, two women who had been part of the group that was about to be killed by Brooks' 2nd Platoon.<9>

They also dedicated a new elementary school for the children of the village.

In 1999, Thompson and Colburn received the Peace Abbey Courage of Conscience Award. Later that year, both men served as co-chairs of STONEWALK, a group that pulled a one-ton rock engraved "Unknown Civilians Killed in War" from Boston to Arlington National Cemetery.

In a 2004 interview with "60 Minutes," Thompson was quoted referring to C Company's men involved in the massacre: "I mean, I wish I was a big enough man to say I forgive them, but I swear to God, I can't."

Thompson served as a counselor in the Louisiana Department of Veterans Affairs, and gave a lecture at the United States Naval Academy in 2003 and the United States Military Academy in 2005 on Professional Military Ethics. He also spoke at the United States Air Force Academy and to United States Marine Corps officers at Quantico. Thompson and his crew's actions have been used as an example in the ethics manuals of U.S. and European militaries. <10>

In 2005, he retired from Louisiana Veterans Affairs. At the age of 62, after extensive cancer treatment, Thompson was removed from life support and died on January 6, 2006 at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Alexandria, Louisiana. Colburn came from Atlanta, Georgia to be at his bedside. Thompson was buried in Lafayette, Louisiana, with full military honors, including a three-volley salute and a helicopter flyover. On February 8, 2006, Congressman Charles Boustany (R-LA) made a statement in Congress honoring him, stating that the "United States has lost a true hero, and the State of Louisiana has lost a devoted leader and dear friend".<11>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.

As far as "lambasting," "moral high ground," and "Matthew 7:3" are concerned; this is a discussion board, and I stated my views very clearly. You don't have to agree with 'em.

[TheMadMonk]

27. Not at all. I applaud moral heroism.

And the selectiveness of my citing was very deliberate.

The point I was making is that the US example to the world is a far cry from the moral high ground that it (and far, far too many of its citizens) claim, and that it demands of all others. A media stunt (for that is what the '98 awards truly amount to) thirty years after the fact counts for jack shit in a country/world that through innumerable examples has comprehensively demonstrated that it has failed to learn what the lesson of Mai Lai should have taught.

Where is the morality in prosecuting a ninety odd year old man for what he did seventy years ago when it is patently obvious that the example of Nuremburg has had no substatial effect in the half century and more since?

Attach a label, be it "Filthy nigger", "Dirty Jew", "Commie pinko dirtbag", "Rag head terrorist" and catapault the propoganda. Do that and any and all attrocity becomes justified in the minds of a sufficient percentage of people that the remainder will fall silent for a longer or lesser period out of simple self preservation. And the same scenarios will continue to play out, time and time again until such a time comes that the actual architects of these horrors face true justice when they are found out, not the faux justice that befalls only those who fail spectacularly in advancing their murderous goals.

[Adsos Letter]

29. Believe it or not, I agree with your post almost in its entirety

although it probably doesn't, and shouldn't, matter to you whether I agree or not.

My point about the selectiveness of your citation was this: while Hugh Thompson certainly was shat upon, he continued to believe that his actions had been correct, despite the immediate consequences.

I claimed no moral high ground for America; I'm quite familiar with the concept of American Exceptionalism, and I reject it. Period. I pointed to an American who made a stand against other Americans.

Neither did I claim any more for myself than you; I did, however, point out cases of American and German individuals who were willing to weigh the cost of their decisions and choose others over themselves. These examples could be multiplied by many others worldwide, such as the Seventh-day Adventist missionary who chose to stay in Rwanda and rescue as many as he could, despite the abandonment of that situation by the world community, and the prominent role of the Rwandan SDA leadership in actively encouraging the genocide there. Check out his story if it interezsts you; his anger/frustration/contempt for the world's response is palpable.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ghosts/interviews/wilkens.html

Given that, I might agree with you regarding the morality of prosecuting a 90 year old man for a category of crime that has not been mitigated by the results of Nuremberg (and I admit that you have given me pause to think on this one); yet, as the article states:
"After volunteering for the SS, he fought on the Russian front, and then ended up back in the Netherlands as part of 'Silbertanne' — a unit of largely Dutch SS volunteers responsible for reprisal killings of their countrymen."

I will admit to erring in stating that he recognized his actions were outside the acceptable bounds of warfare; he said he saw nothing wrong with it at the time, but has come to see things differently as he aged. Perhaps. Yet he says "As a simple soldier, I learned to carry out orders...nd I knew that if I didn't carry out my orders I would be breaking my oath and would be shot myself." Going for the "I was only following orders" defense, rather than simply saying he saw nothing wrong with it at the time, simply shifts the responsibility for his decision to others.

And, while I would agree that "the same scenarios will continue to play out, time and time again until such a time comes that the actual architects of these horrors face true justice when they are found out," I would also add that these architects have power only so long as individuals obey them. And many, many individuals have found the moral courage to disobey them, often at the cost of their own lives.

[TheMadMonk]

30. A point. Exceptional people are exceptional because they're, um, exceptional.

Ordinary people aren't, because they aren't. In fact, when push comes to shove, the average person is a complete moral coward.

Heinrich Boere, is now being tried (and will in all probability be convicted) as much for what he failed to do, as he is for the crime he committed. And that is the subtext of a great many arguments on the subject of war crimes. Arguments for punnishing those who commit them all too often are made in the highly convoluted form that they deserve punishment for their failure to not commit the crime, rather than a simple "They did it. They deserve it."

The Stanford Prison Experiment demonstrates very conclusively, exactly how easy it is to turn an ordinary, law abiding human being into a complete monster, and how quickly it can happen. Yet the vast majority of people are unwilling to accept this, because to do so, they would have to acknowledge that in all likelihood they harbour the same monster within themselves. And because they refuse to acknowlege, the same sick shit keeps happening, time and time again.

The people who do commit these crimes most certainly deserve some form of punishment, but mittigating factors also have to be openly acknowleged. Acknowledged in a form that makes it very, very clear to one and all, that the only difference between them and the criminals is lack of opportunity/motivation.

And further, we have to stop handing out free passes to those who deliberately set out in the full knowledge that what they are setting in motion WILL make monsters out of ordinary people.

(edit: typo)

[Adsos Letter]

18. I admit the obvious difference between Germany, 1934-1945, and America, 1968

but I would append this quote form the citation, given 30 years later, to those who acted with integrity:

"It was the ability to do the right thing even at the risk of their personal safety that guided these soldiers to do what they did," Army Maj. Gen. Michael Ackerman said at the 1998 ceremony. The three "set the standard for all soldiers to follow."

I willingly grant the differences of time and place; however, I believe there are salient points here also.

[Iowa]

20. Well said. I agree.

[11cents]

19. He was in the SS. Not "just a soldier"

He volunteered to be in the SS, a service for which he had to pass muster for both "racial purity" and ideological fervor.

And BTW, there were numerous cases in which genuine "just soldiers" in the Wehrmacht refused to commit atrocities and were not executed -- in fact, usually soldiers weren't punished for such refusals. But someone who volunteered for the SS simply would not refuse.

[Gregorian]

26. Without followers leaders wouldn't exist.

I hear what you're saying. But I do not subscribe to it.

The way I see it is akin to passivism. One must morally refuse to follow orders, with the knowledge they may suffer consequences. I believe all responsibilities fall upon us as individuals. And that goes for nearly everything, including global warming.

[happyslug]

15. Lets remember only ONE Nazi Organization was NOT ruled a Criminal Organization in Nuremberg

And that was the SA, NOT the SS nor its offspring the Waffen SS (Or Armed SS, Nazi Troops as opposed to German Troops, i.e. loyal to the Nazi Party NOT the German Army even through the Waffen SS was a Military Unit). He enlisted in 1940 into the Waffen SS, which meant he was exempt from serving in the German Army (as was the case for he had been living in the Netherlands and his father had been Dutch, if both parents had been German he would have been drafted into the German Army). My point is he had to enlist into the Waffen SS, which he had to have WANTED to join (You were drafted into the German Army, but you had to volunteer to join the Waffen SS). The Waffen SS had a reputation for intense fighting (More Intense then regular German Units BUT not better fighting then Regular German Units just more intense fighting and there is a difference between those two situations).

Prior to 1939, Concentration Guards and Waffen SS unit exchanged personal all the time, but this ended as the war began, but that tradition was still in the Waffen SS for they were more brutal to civilians (and Jews, Slavs and other "Sub-humans) then regular German Units (Which were brutal and inhumane enough given the Nazi propaganda ALL Germans were exposed to at that time).

I would be more willing to accept the defense of just following orders EXCEPT he did volunteer for a unit that was KNOWN and BRAGGED about its brutality. The actions of the SA during the 1920s and 1930s are while known for the international press made their action while known. To put the Waffen SS in its place just remember the SA was the only Nazi organization NOT declared a Criminal Organization at Nuremberg (some of the SA's member were, but NOT the SA). The SS and the Waffen SS were deemed to be that much WORSE then the SA to reach the level of Criminal Organizations. Gives you an idea on how bad these groups were and that this person VOLUNTEERED to be a member of the Waffen SS, tells you something of his mind set in 1940-1945 time period.

[Adsos Letter]

17. Indeed, and well said. Soldiers of the Der Führer Regiment of the 2nd Waffen-SS Panzer Division

were responsible for the massacre of civillians at Oradour-sur-Glane, to think of the first of many examples that come to mind.

http://www.oradour.info/

[Thothmes]

23. Soldiers of Kampfgruppe Peiper

of the 1st SS Panzer Division murdered around 90 American prisoners at Malmadey

[IndianaGreen]

21. Let us also remember the righteous people murdered by the nazis

In a statement read out by his lawyer on Tuesday, Mr Boere admitted he had shot Fritz Bicknese, a chemist and father of 12; bicycle seller Teun de Groot, who helped Jews go into hiding; and Dutch resistance member Frans Kusters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8402574.stm

Twelve children became orphans on account of Herr Boere.

RIP Fritz Bicknese, Teun de Groot, and Frans Kusters.

NEVER FORGET!

[Solly Mack]

22. K&R