An even greener Prius?

[and-justice-for-all]

Source: Mercury News

By Frank Michael Russell

[e-mail]
Posted: 12/14/2009 01:15:03 PM PST
Updated: 12/14/2009 03:05:12 PM PST

Today: Toyota is rolling out its plug-in Prius hybrid.

Coming soon: plug-in Prius

Prius owners, we know you love your pioneering gasoline-electric hybrids — both for the money you save on fuel and the environmentally friendly statement your car makes, especially in an eco-conscious area like Silicon Valley.

Toyota announced today that an even greener Prius is on the way. A plug-in model of the popular hybrid will be available in limited numbers (about 600 worldwide) for lease, mostly to government and business customers. The rest of us can buy one starting sometime in 2011. Toyota didn't reveal a price, but an executive said it will be a "viable option" for many customers.

According to our friends at The Associated Press, the plug-in Prius is made possible by an improved lithium-ion battery. The plug-in Prius can travel about 14 miles powered by electricity. After that, its gas engine kicks in.

According to AP, Toyota wants feedback from its lease customers before bringing the plug-in Prius to a wider market. "We have been working on developing efficient powertrains to be able to use oil as efficiently as possible," Executive Vice President Takeshi Uchiyamada said. "But many hurdles remain for alternative fuels."

Read more: http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_13995011

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I will hold off on any new car purchase for this gem.

A big thanks to Toyota for doing the right thing.

[Earth_First]

1. A 30K Prius? n/t

[high density]

2. I'd rather have a diesel

More power, decent mileage, and no crazy complex transaxle and batteries.

[w4rma]

3. A diesel hybrid would be better than a diesel. (nt)

[kestrel91316]

21. Make that a biodiesel hybrid and you're really talking........

[garybeck]

8. Me too.

the embodied energy of a hybrid negates the fuel savings.

[PuppyBismark]

4. I Love Our Prius!

We just bought a Prius and love it! We tend to keep cars a very long time and this one is another keeper. We bought it when our 16 year old SAAB died and have not looked back. We are really getting about 50 miles to the gallon, at $2.50 a gallon, that is five cents a mile for fuel. The cost of the Prius was much less than $30K and the dealer had 14 of them.

If we could have waited until 2011, we would buy one of the plug-in models in a heart beat. Many of our trips are less than 14 miles. In the winter, mileage will be reduced because the gas engine is used for heating, but the air conditioning is electrical. Keep up the good work Toyota, too bad American auto makers never saw the light.

As to the Chevy Volt, the current price is estimated at $35K. Phooey! It should also be noted the Japanese government did all they could to help Toyota develop the Hybrid, what did the American government do to help Detroit?

:toast: :toast:

[Dr.Phool]

6. We've had one for two years.

$21k before the gas price spike. It's better than I expected, and I expected a lot. It gets better mileage than my Harley.

For our second car, I'll hold out for the plug-in.

[msongs]

7. umm the US government bailed out GM....how soon you forget. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. Bailed out Detroit, sure

but how much has the US government done to encourage fuel-efficiency?

[Ian David]

19. Well, for one thing, our tax dollars have bought us THIS...

The Chevy Volt Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvwTMZNWGuk

[WriteDown]

13. Yeah, phooey to union labor....

:eyes:

[kestrel91316]

22. A good friend and her husband are on their second Prius. Her mom gave them

a brand new fully-tricked out one with leather seats about 5 years ago, and they recently gave that one to her (has 100k+ miles on it now). And they bought another one fully tricked out. He commutes 60 miles RT at least 5 days a week.

Interestingly, he also is considering using the Metrolink train for most of his commute because it is so much more relaxing than driving in traffic. He can take the car 10 miles to the station, ride the train into the city, then hop on a shuttle directly from the train to his office at NBC in Burbank. I said GO FOR IT!! He didn't think my new car-free lifestyle was weird, either.

Times are changing (and hearts and minds).

[blue_onyx]

23. Before you criticize the Volt price...

and praise Toyota, shouldn't you wait to see how much the plug-in Prius will cost?

[maryinthemorn]

5. Great

[diane in sf]

9. this is what I'm waiting for, though I did see an after market plug-in kit for onlt $2500

at the Green Festival in San Francisco. Could be worthwhile to get a used Prius and add the plug-in kit.

[WriteDown]

14. You're waiting for a non-union made Chevy Volt?

Looks like you're in luck?

[diane in sf]

27. I find Toyotas very reliable and cheap to run, gm doesn't have as good a track record with me

As a union member the union thing is regrettable. Also the Volt is going to be more expensive, because if worse came to worse I'd buy a used Prius and do the now much cheaper add-on batteries.

[garybeck]

10. "Even Greener???" The embodied energy of a hybrid negates the fuel savings.

So much extra energy goes into the manufacturing of the batteries, which have to be replaced several times over the lifetime of the vehicle, not to mention the complex axel system.

the embodied energy negates the fuel savings.

just get a diesel. you'll get the same (or better) mileage and a more reliable car with less embodied energy, and if you want to you can run it on biodiesel.

[flyingfysh]

11. where did you get that idea?

Why do you say the batteries have to be replaced several times?

I've had my Prius 4 years, and the only problems were some light bulbs, and I did have to replace the water pump. I've never had a hint of battery problems.

[garybeck]

15. I hate to burst your bubble but

the batteries do not last as long as the rest of the car. I think 8 years is the expected lifetime on the NiMH batteries. I guess when I said "several" times that was a stretch, but you will need to replace them.

but the greater issue is the raw embodied energy. much more energy goes into building a hybrid vehicle. if you account for the fact that the batteries have to be replaced at least once, and you add up all the energy involved in manufacturing two sets of batteries, and the more complicated system, studies have brought into serious question, whether or not the fuel savings exceedes the extra energy input.

One article you might want to read is here:
http://greenbydesign.com/2009/01/24/hybrid-hype-part-1-environment-savior-or-just-snob-appeal/

but that is just one of many.

the most often study on embodied energy is here:
http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/DUST%20PDF%20VERSION.pdf

note, the study has been scrutinized and criticized for many valid reaons and some of the info in it is pure bull.

but it does raise an important issue that is not often brought into account... the mere gas mileage of a vehicle is not the only thing to take into account if you're trying to "go green." If it takes more energy to make a vehicle, that counts just as much as the fuel mileage. The hybrid has two motors. That sets it back a bit from the beginning. And NiMH batteries are kinda nasty, at least when used on the large scale. (just look at what it's done to Sudbury, Ontario. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant there, and
plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that it is devoid of any life for miles.)

I think regardless of the questionable study (which by the way found that a Hummer has less "dust to dust" energy than a hybrid), you have to admit that a diesel that gets the same or better mileage compared to a hybrid, has significantly less embodied energy.

Personally I've been amazed at all the hype about hybrids. We've had cars that get 50 mpg for years. With the new low sulphur diesel fuel, it seems like a no brainer. I'm sticking to diesels, which get the same mileage as hybrids, have less embodied energy, are a much simpler design, and to boot, they last longer. I'm hoping my current cars (diesels) last until the new air cars hit the market, which have a single engine and use compressed air as fuel. We'll see...

[rollingrock]

16. So does that mean the Chevy Volt's battery lasts forever?

if so, they ought to fly from the showrooms.

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. It's not just about fuel efficiency, though.

Total carbon dioxide emissions are also a factor. The Toyota Prius has rated CO2 emissions of 89 grammes per kilometre. For comparison purposes, a Euro-spec Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCI emits 187 grammes of CO2 per kilometre, which, over the lifetime of the vehicle, is quite a substantial difference (even taking into account manufacturing inputs for batteries and powertrain). And in Europe, unlike the US, motor vehicles are taxed annually on CO2 emissions (whereas in the US the annual motor vehicle tax and registration fees are assessed on the value of the vehicle).

[NickB79]

24. 8 years is not the expected lifetime of NiMH batteries, it is merely what they are warranteed for

And real-world results speak highly of their reliability: http://www.hybridcars.com/fleets/taxis-show-hybrid-battery-durability-25167.html

"San Francisco taxi drivers are providing solid information about the outer reaches of hybrid battery life. At a recent Ford Motor Company event, Paul Gillespie, San Francisco Taxicab Commission president, said some of his city’s Ford Escape hybrid taxis had passed 300,000 miles of use with no problems. He added that they also found brake life to be three times normal due to the regenerative braking system.

One of the lingering questions about hybrid vehicles is battery life. The batteries that pump up hybrid efficiency are expensive and can’t last forever—but how long will they last? In California and the four other states that follow its strict emissions regimens, hybrid batteries are warranted for 10 years or 150,000 miles, which is presumed to be the life of the vehicle. The other 45 states have an 8-year, 100,000-mile warranty. But many folks drive their vehicles well beyond those limits.

“Only two of our 182 hybrid battery packs have had to be replaced during the years hybrids have been a part of the city’s taxi fleets,” Gillespie said. “One was replaced under warranty and the other was driver error.” The taxis in the city average 90,000 miles a year."

[WriteDown]

12. What's the mpg when the accelerator is sticking and your careening to your death?

Buy a union made Chevy Volt people.

[jmowreader]

20. How green is this "greener" Prius? Really?

If you plug your "greener" Prius into the wall, like they want you to, you're using generated electricity to charge it. In large parts of the country, generated electricity is made by burning coal--definitely not a "greener" technology. Go through Pennsylvania and West Virginia, and you will find lots of pro-coal billboards. My favorite is the one with the neon sign that reads "ELECTRICITY" with the last four letters turned off, and the caption "without coal, most cities would be dark."

In the Pacific Northwest, where there's a lot of hydroelectric, the car really is green. In the Plains with all the new wind turbines* it's green too. But in Pennsylvania? Naah.

* The highways are full of "wind loads"--trucks carrying wind turbine blades, This is really dangerous work; the truckers who do it talk about having to be on your toes all the time because not only do car drivers act like maniacs around these trucks, the fact you're carrying a 100-foot-long sail plays into it.

[diane in sf]

28. Even burning coal for power a plug-in vehicle is substantially more efficent. There

have been a number of discussions in the environmental and energy forums with links for you to follow.

[ieoeja]

25. Toyota trying to catch up to GM.

Toyota's original plan was 100% hybrid by 2020 (I think). But with GM's Volt going into large-scale production next year, Toyota realized they had to move forward with the plug-in faster they had planned or risk losing that market to GM.

It would have been a shame if they'd stuck to their original plan. You would have been stuck with the non-plug-in Toyota for another decade since, gods forbid, you buy a domestic car like some lowly peasant.

:)

[WriteDown]

26. Domestic cars are for the bourgeoisie. nt