Howard Dean: Health Care Bill 'Bigger Bailout for the Insurance Industry Than AIG'

[kpete]

Source: ABC News


Howard Dean: Health Care Bill 'Bigger Bailout for the Insurance Industry Than AIG'

By HUMA KHAN and JONATHAN KARL
WASHINGTON, Dec. 16, 2009


President Obama said he likes the Senate health care compromise and wants it passed by Christmas, but he faces a revolt from some liberals who say the health care bill has been gutted to appease insurance companies.


"This is a bigger bailout for the insurance industry than AIG," former Democratic National Committee chairman and medical doctor Howard Dean told "Good Morning America's" George Stephanopoulos today. "A very small number of people are going to get any insurance at all, until 2014, if the bill works.

"This is an insurance company's dream, this bill," Dean continued. "This is the Washington scramble, and I think it's ill-advised."

Dean sent shockwaves when he said Tuesday in an interview with Vermont Public Radio that the removal of the Medicare buy-in means Democrats should just kill the health care bill and start over.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare/howard-dean-health-care-bill-bigger-bailout-insurance/story?id=9349392

[global1]

1. Maybe It's A Strategy To Get Repugs To Vote For It.....(sarcasm) nt

[1776Forever]

4. And you think that was sarcasm? I think there is some truth in that statement.

I am beginning to think it is just to get "something" on the books. It makes me ill and I have good insurance but lost a lot a couple of years ago when we had to take care of a son with MS who was 38 and had no insurance! It CAN happen to anyone!

[zoff]

65. If the bill passes and goes to reconciliation AND it doesnt change for the better ...

... then we're all SOL. Time to bring out the pitchforks.

[Name removed]

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[zoff]

191. Torches ... check!

[Name removed]

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[No Elephants]

132. I'm so sorry that happened to you, your son and your family. MS is stressful enough, even with ins.

[Garam_Masala]

95. LMAO... part of that 3 dimensional chess eom

[No Elephants]

133. 3D chess is not for Dr. Dean. He is both human--and forthright.

How refreshing!

[bkohatlanta]

116. One of the few people who speaks for "We The PEOPLE"

Without Bernie Sanders, Michael Moore, Russ Feingold, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert and Governor Dean nobody would be speaking for me. I thank them with all my heart.

[Name removed]

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[newspeak]

187. It wasn't that Dean screamed

it was the MSM who repeatedly told the clueless public that he was screaming--ya know he was an excited kind of guy and he may have a temper, and do we really want someone like that in the white house? I remember that episode, and it was a lively loud crowd and so he yelled--BFD!!!!

The MSM played it and the plebes bought it--"hook, line and sinker."

[No Elephants]

135. Sadly, only 2 people you named are on the public payroll, yet we employ thousands.

BTW, I'd add Kuchinich to your list.

[pokercat999]

142. Sorry, Russ Feingold, Bernie Sanders and a small group of

left side Senators could force this through. They could get 60 votes if they would man up and declare all Senate business dead until health care reform with a public option or medi-care for all is passed. They would simply have to filibuster every bill and shut down the Senate. All they need is guts, something in very short supply in Washington, unless you're sending someone else's son to die.

[DonkeyHoTay]

193. Please add Dennis and Ron to your list!

[wordpix]

167. Milbank's eye opening op-ed on senators who voted against lower prescript. drug costs

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/15/AR2009121504196.html

President Obama writes a new health reform prescription

By Dana Milbank
Wednesday, December 16, 2009

On the campaign trail, Barack Obama vowed to take on the drug industry by allowing Americans to import cheaper prescription medicine. "We'll tell the pharmaceutical companies 'thanks, but no, thanks' for the overpriced drugs -- drugs that cost twice as much here as they do in Europe and Canada," he said back then.

On Tuesday, the matter came to the Senate floor -- and President Obama forgot the "no, thanks" part. Siding with the pharmaceutical lobby, the administration successfully fought against the very idea Obama had championed.

"It's got to be a little awkward," said Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.).

It's even more awkward for millions of Americans who are forced to pay up to 10 times the prices Canadians and Europeans pay for identical medication, often produced in the same facilities by the same manufacturers, simply because the U.S. government refuses to rein in drug prices. snip

One after the other, the drug industry's friends from pharmaceutical-manufacturing states New Jersey, Delaware and North Carolina went to the floor Tuesday to cite the FDA letter.

Sen. Robert Menendez (D-Bristol-Myers Squibb) warned that "you may have a heart attack" because of counterfeit medicine from abroad.

"This is a matter of life or death," agreed Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-Merck).

Carper (D-AstraZeneca) cited "remaining safety and soundness and health concerns," while Sen. Kay Hagan (D-GlaxoSmithKline) voiced "serious doubts that we can adequately ensure the safety of the drug supply."

These arguments don't hold up well, considering that 40 percent of the active ingredients in American prescription drugs come from India and China, and that the latter slipped tainted heparin past the FDA. But fright was about the best argument opponents could use to defeat a popular proposal that would save the federal government $19 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Consumers would save many times that. snip

[SemiCharmedQuark]

2. Rec for Dean.

[still_one]

3. call your representatives tell them to vote NO /nt

[TwilightGardener]

5. Honestly, while I respect him, he was fine with the bill when it had the Medicare buy-in

(he said it had some "real reform"), and now that it's gone it's a TOTAL DISASTER? The Medicare buy-in wouldn't have affected that many people and would have charged fairly high premiums, it wasn't even as good as a public option. I'm not sure why the 180 spin for Dr. Dean, but I can't believe it's just the absence of the buy-in.

[PassingFair]

6. That buy in would have affected millions of people.

And would have served as a foot in the door
for more.

Now we will be LOCKED OUT from any price controls.

Forced to purchase insurance from FOR PROFIT
companies at a price THEY will determine.

The bill jumped the shark, and Howard would
not have come out this strongly if it had not.

[TwilightGardener]

9. Not sure that it would have, because the premiums were looking

about as high as buying an individual plan AND there was no family coverage. A couple over 55 would have to pay MORE separately for Medicare than for an individual plan that covered them both, IIRC. And the plan would only have affected those with no access to employer coverage. Really, it would not have had a big effect on competition (and thus cost controls). I just think it's weird that Dean suddenly believes that there's now NOTHING worthwhile in this bill, when last week it was "real reform", just on the absence of the buy-in alone.

[PassingFair]

19. You may not be sure, but I am.

Why would you think it's "weird" that Dean
would "suddenly" stop supporting health care
reform now that all of the REFORMS have been
removed?

The Medicare buy-in would have had an immediate
positive effect on Medicare ITSELF. Work provided
insurance is being eroded year by year, and many
retirement plans have been stripped of health insurance
coverage.

Millions would have been helped, and the pathway would
have been set for lowering the age even further.

[TwilightGardener]

23. Not all of the reforms have been removed. The purpose of any public

plan was to create options--thus competition--and lower costs. The public option wasn't meant as an insurance reform in and of itself, it was a cost-reducing measure. The insurance reforms are the directives against recission and denial (or charging more) of pre-existing conditions, the ability to access affordable insurance for those without employer coverage, and an insurance exchange where policies can be chosen and compared. I'm not sure we should scrap everything because there's no public option.

[PassingFair]

25. It does nothing to determine how MUCH they can charge for those pre-existing condition plans.

3X as much, they can charge.

How is that reform?

Scrap it and start over. Since these "changes" won't be
implemented until 2013 AT THE EARLIEST, start over and
implement REAL REFORM ASAP.

Cost reduction IS real reform.


You say:
"an insurance exchange where policies can be chosen and compared"

We already HAVE this, I remember "comparing" plans when I had my
own business, before I had to take this crappy job, just so my
family could get health care.

[TwilightGardener]

26. The exchange goes hand in hand with the subsidy program, if I understand it correctly.

That's why Helmet-Head Nelson (my Senator, unfortunately) is trying to dictate the terms of what can be covered by companies in the exchange RE abortion services. About the pre-existing conditions, I've read that they won't be able to charge a higher premium for those folks and that's where the mandates come into play. I just think that cost controls are going to be difficult without public competition, though. But I don't know that we'll get anything better with scrapping the deal, and no one in Congress seems to be planning on reconciliation of the PO or anything else.

[PassingFair]

27. We need to push for reconciliation.

If we pass this mess, we will be stuck with it.

[TwilightGardener]

28. If we pass this bill, then yes, I would want at least some additional

legislation to create a PO/Medicare buy-in, preferably through the budget reconciliation process so that it can pass with 51.

[PassingFair]

30. If this bill is passed, I predict that nothing else will happen.

Our Democrat "team" will declare victory
and we will get hosed.

[TwilightGardener]

32. Eh, we're probably going to get hosed no matter what is or isn't passed, or

who is in the WH. I just expect it, frankly. That said, I was looking at my bill for three days in the hospital, and it's over $30,000 (which fortunately is all paid for by insurance)--I can't imagine how those without insurance can have any comfort or security under the status quo. I grew up without health care, I know what it's like to live with the fear of something bad happening.

[PassingFair]

33. That is why we need REAL reform.

And not this give-away to the insurance companies,
as sponsored by Joe Lieberman.

[newspeak]

188. and those government subsidies go directly to the for profit insurance

industry--that will give them even more power (if possible) than they already have now. Don't expect single payer because they will be handing the golden ring to the for profit industry--and instead of cutting cost, I predict we see even more money being needlessly spent in a greed fest industry.

My in-laws just received a notice from their secondary insurance-they were paying about 700.00-now it's going to be 880.00. You want to know what the letter stated--due to health reform legislation we're going to up your rates. Now they are elderly, and most of their pension is to buy this damn insurance because they are both in ill health. I'm sorry, I'm not into promoting wall street's and health industry CEO's greed habit over the misery of others, especially the elderly.

[Garam_Masala]

YES, You just made the MOST IMPORTANT POINT eom

[No Elephants]

136. The combo of a mandate AND no public option makes this bill exactly what Dean calls it: A bigger

bailout of the health insurers than AIG--and, while AIG actually needed bailing out, the health insurers don't.


BTW, I don't think the bill, as it currently stands, prevents insurers from charging more for pre-existing conditions. However, even if it does, there is no guaranty the bill that actually gets passed will prevent higher premiums.
As far as ability to access "affordable" insurance, I don't think this billd oes that either.

Insurance exchange? Pfffft.

[nbsmom]

106. Where do you get these numbers for the Medicare buy in option?

Hadn't seen any premiums yet. I know that the typical single person over 55 with any sort of preexisting condition can't get ANY coverage for any amount of $$$. I would imagine that this would have a deleterious effect on the household cash flow married or not. Plus, reducing the age to 55 would have also been a MUCH quicker implementation than the timeframes quoted in the current Senate Bill (2014??? Five years to fix this mess?)

The Medicare buy-in option would have the net effect of obtaining some public option/government volume cost controls as well. If you don't have Medicare to 55 or single payor, what is the health insurance industry's motivation to stay competitive?

[TwilightGardener]

119. I can't remember where I saw them, but I remember reading that

premium estimates were 600-700/mo for an individual, and that it was only for those with no access to employer coverage. I don't think that sounds impossibly bad, especially if subsidized in some way, but it might be too steep for a couple to have to pay for two premiums. The CBO hadn't done the numbers before Joementum bailed, so maybe we'll never know for sure what it would have cost.

[newspeak]

186. a medicare buy-in should be dependent upon your wages

it should be a percentage from those wages, not a flat fee!

[patrice]

50. Precisely. Dean is a reasonable man and he was making an effort, but they threw it back in our faces

[liberation]

86. Frankly, I commend Dean for being so committed to get something that may help people

even after Mr. Emmanuel and his band of merry DLC folks stuck that gigantic knife in his back.

I think the house Dems may start circling the wagons and will soon duke it out with the Senate and Whitehouse Dems. It is going to be interesting that is for sure.

[patrice]

108. He has nothing to gain, nor lose, by not buying into the talking point that "we have to pass

HCR this year"; there's nothing like giving away half of the shop before you even open the doors and he's not falling for it.

[No Elephants]

138. Emanuel? Is that where the buck stops now, with the President's handpicked Chief of Staff? LOL.

[Name removed]

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[PassingFair]

160. I called my senator's offices, and Harry Reid's, too.l

Then I called Nancy Pelosi's office and whined
to them, too.

It IS time....

[Jefferson23]

8. It wouldn't have affected that many people?

DEMOGRAPHICS
The number of Americans age 55 and older will almost double between now and 2030 – from 60 million today (21 percent of the total US population) to 107.6 million (31 percent of the population) – as the Baby Boomers reach retirement age.

http://www.experiencecorps.org/research/factsheet.html

[TwilightGardener]

11. But the proposal would not have applied to anyone who wanted it--

it was narrow, just like the public option proposals. I'm not saying it wasn't a worthwhile idea, and wouldn't have done some people some good--I just am not getting Dean's sudden harsh attacks on the bill on this basis alone.

[Jefferson23]

21. He is opposed to it as there exists no cost controls among other problems with it.

You have a source defining how narrow that group would have been? Also, once that door was opened, much easier to broaden it, now we have nothing.

[No Elephants]

137. dean was willing to settle for something that may have been a start toward

something good. Now, with even that gone, he does not see enough worthwhile in the bill to warrant what it will cost the American taxpayer and American consumer.

Maybe you should stop focusing on what you see as inconsistencies in Dean's position and start focusing on that point: is this bill worth the cost to us, as taxpayers and consumers? You say you expect to get hosed, no matter what. Why is that okay with YOU? IMO, we should oppose ANY bill that hoses us.

[global1]

12. Even With The High Premiums For The 55 to 64 Age Group......

I would be paying less than I am right now for my BC/BS. I'm 61 and would have loved that this made it through.

I think Dean maybe knows that other good features of this bill will be compromised out of it just to get it passed. It seems that everyday - another bit of the bill is gone.

Just like G.W.Bush fell into the trap set by Osama Bin Laden bringing the U.S. into economic ruin - it seems like Obama and the Dems have fallen into the trap set by the Repugs. They are caving to everything that is good about HCR with the notion that they will get some bi-partisan support and we all know that they won't. Hell they can't even get the party on the same page.

I'm not for totally killing this bill - because that will be celebrated as a big victory by the Repugs and a major, major defeat for Obama. It will make his next 3 years miserable. Everything will be even more of an uphill battle.

No - we have to get something reasonably decent passed - even if by 'reconciliation'.

Reading some of the posts this a.m. - it appears that all the good has been stripped out of this bill.

I don't know what I would do if I were Obama now - but I think it is time for him to step up to the plate and really get tough with his own party. I know that he kind of wants to maintain this 'nice and fair guy image' - but this situation now calls for some real head banging.

I don't understand the vote on drug reimportation. I don't know why they won't drop into the bill 'negotiation of drug prices for Medicare'. There are things that if put in would become rallying points for us 'rank and file' to support.

But in the spirit of compromise and the need to get something passed and soon - they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[TwilightGardener]

14. I agree with much of what you say--

but in general I still believe that whatever reforms end up in the bill will probably be better for MOST people than the status quo PLUS a huge loss for our party (we can kiss upcoming elections goodbye, and HCR will be Obama's "Waterloo" like Sen. Jim DeMint predicted). There are things that worry me about it (especially concerning the mandates without price-cutting competition), but I am hoping that any problems with the bill will be weeded out early in the implementation phase.

[earcandle]

111. Sometimes I think our language on this site creates reality, even when reality is not really that

predictable..

Anything can happen.  Keep it open.

I say start painting it as we want it and ignore the rest
until we have it.
Withhold what we need to get it, and celebrate each other when
we have it.

[No Elephants]

140. ? Problems with bills do not get weeded out in implementation phases.

The only thing that weeds out a problem with bill is additional legislation. If we cannot get a bill passed with Democrats in the Oval Office, Democrats holding an overwhelming majority in the House and the Democrat caucus having 60 votes in the Senate, what makes anyone hopeful about future legislation?

We will NOT be gaining seats any time soon. To he contrary, the cluster fucks in which Democrats have been engaging make it as certain as anything can be that we will lose seats in 2010 and probably in 2012 and there is a good chance we will lose the WH in 2012, too, even if legislation passes. Passing crappy legislation will only increase that likelihood.

[pundaint]

165. What has your party done for you?

[Name removed]

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[TwilightGardener]

15. Nastiness not called for.

[pattmarty]

22. Maybe not. But what the fuck about common sense??? You and.........

..........all the others of the "somethings better than nothing" crowd, better start looking at exactly what's left in this POS. What will you say next week when they strip out the "pre-existing conditions"? C'mon, when will you armchair liberals say "enough is fucking enough"?????? This now is a shit bill, why in the fuck can you not admit that? Then you bust on Dean because he bent over backwards to support which was even then a piece of shit and now with absolutely NO PUBLIC OPTION or Medicare buy in is a TOTAL PIECE OF SHIT. Jesusfuckingchrist, there comes a time when you just say NO, I fucking CAN'T compromise ANY FUCKING MORE!!!!

[Name removed]

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[newspeak]

189. and that's it

if it's a sell out to the industry, it looks exactly like a repuke bill. The more this bill gets tainted, the more I see greedy repukes rubbing their hands together ACTING as if they're against it in public, all the while slapping themselves on the back thinking we couldn't have a better pro-business bill and the sweet deal is we can blame the Democrats while giving our corporate friends a boost.

[No Elephants]

141. IMO, anyone who supports passing ANY bill is no liberal, armchair or otherwise. Other than that, I

agree with you (and often agree with you).

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[pscot]

66. Love your sunflower

It make it easy to recognize your posts, so I can just skip over them. I prefer not to use ignore.

[Iowa]

68. Pattmarty, I like your style. You are absolutely correct. Well said!

[Zodiak]

35. I think that, like me, you have found out that Dean is to the right of you

Not a biggie....a few years ago, before the 2004 campaign, Dean was considered a "centrist".

Now he is considered a fire-breathing liberal, but that is only because of how far rightward this country, and particularly, the Democratic party, has become.

Like you, I disagreed with Dean promoting the previous compromise, but I am glad that he has finally drawn a line in the sand over this Leiberman shit.

[TwilightGardener]

36. No, I'm actually to the right of Dean--I'm more centrist than liberal.

But I did want a good public option, and then I would have settled for the Medicare buy-in, and now I suppose I'll just have to settle for some industry reforms and subsidies to help more people get covered--though I'm not happy about the massive compromises, and the lack of competition coupled with mandates. I just didn't see the 55-Medicare-buy-in as that great of a substitute for a public option for everybody, is all. I don't know why Dean did--maybe he was strained to the breaking point with that proposal, and then losing it altogether finally made him snap and refute the bill in its entirety.

[Zodiak]

41. You're probably right

That medicare buy-in was tempting for me to support, but I thought of all of the people who were younger than baby boomers who suffer to this day and would get no help.

It wasn't good enough, but it seemed to be so for Dean.

[No Elephants]

143. Only 20% of the nation identifies itself as Republican, while Bush once had an approval rating of

around 90#. That does not indicate the nation has moved right. It indicates the opposite. The Democratic Party has gone right, rather needlessly, IMO. It should have seized upon the dissatisfaction with Republicans in general and Bushco in particular and used that momentum to push true reforms. Instead, we caved to the Purple Snakes, a much bigger minority in Congress than even the Republicans.

DEMAND that the Senate get rid of the Senate's filibuster and 60 vote rules, so that the will of a majority of Americans is not thwarted by as little as one Senator. And then, organize and donate to citizen representative organizations that will lobby on our behalf, to combat the corporatists and their lobbyists.

No matter how much money a corporation has, it does not go to the polls---YET. If we stay as apathetic as we have been, though, and that, too, may change. The American people cannot and should not keep settling and compromising anymore. We cannot remain sheeple anymore.

[Enthusiast]

173. Nice post. nt

[groovedaddy]

47. What Lynn Woolsey had to say

From today's NY Times:
In the House, though, liberals were none too pleased. Representative Lynn Woolsey, Democrat of California and co-chairwoman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, said it would be “very difficult” for her to vote for legislation that does not include a government plan, dubbed a public option, or a Medicare buy-in.

“Without that and without any public option, I don’t see what we are offering the American people,” Ms. Woolsey said. “We are not offering any significant competition to the insurance industry. Premiums could skyrocket.

[TwilightGardener]

51. I agree with that. I just don't think the PO or the Medicare buy-in, as proposed, were

broad enough to offer real competition and price wars. They were kinda narrow.

[No Elephants]

148. "Kinda narrow" is still better than " totally absent."

[TwilightGardener]

169. Oh, I agree--I would certainly rather have them than not. But I don't know that

their absence is an absolute deal breaker, since perhaps they can be added later through reconciliation, or maybe they just wouldn't have had the cost-lowering impact that was planned. Still, I am leery of mandates with no other options than "Blue Cross or Aetna?" Seems a recipe for abuse. I'm very torn, as you can tell.

[Mithreal]

76. "can't believe it's just the absence of the buy-in"

I think there is more to the story as well.

[mother earth]

87. Of course not, it's because there's no REFORM, it's a gift

to the very forces that continue to ration care. There's no mystery, we are screwed by the corporate stranglehold. The blue dogs, Lieberman and anyone beholding should've been recused from voting. How could we expect anything less than a screw-over by the sell-outs?

[tomm2thumbs]

7. I have an idea... to make this all clean and consistent...

Let's MANDATE overpaying the rip-off Insurance Industry

and MANDATE people buy American-only cars
and MANDATE people buy dental insurance
and MANDATE people invest in American stocks in the market
and MANDATE people buy cable television services
and MANDATE people send their kids to private schools
and MANDATE people vote in all elections
and MANDATE every single person have a cell phone
and MANDATE air travel at least 4 times a year
and MANDATE everyone own a firearm
and MANDATE buying computers once a year

and MANDATE everything ELSE corporations can profit from!

at infinitum...

[coyote]

10. Thank you Dr. Dean. Tell it like it is. n/t

[Romulox]

16. Has any one administration had such a mania for giving taxpayer money to private corps?

:shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

17. Oh, Junior did a pretty good job of diverting our resources to military contractors.

[Romulox]

20. Right. Then Obama *raised* military spending, kept all the same people in charge.

:shrug:

[pattmarty]

31. And Obama's doing the same "diverting our resources" to the.................

............fucking Insurance industry. Privatization is privatization, whether it's to military contractors or insurance contractors. In at least these two cases, the government can do it BETTER for less than private companies. So I guess, Bush bad, Obama good, go figure.

[NashVegas]

46. Yabbut You Know What's REALLY Funny?

Both Bill and Tommy Frist have recently made moves into the defense industry. I shit you not.

[pattmarty]

58. A little "double dipping"? I am not against the Capital system per se.....................

...............What I am against is the no fucking rules at all on Capitalism. I always maintained that you have laws for humans for controlling certain "bad" behaviors, and you have regulations on companies/corporations to control their "bad" behavior. To me it's just common sense, but to some, it's just profit/greed and power.

[Enthusiast]

170. I should say so!

Obama is a boy scout compared to Bush in diverting resources.

[rapturedbyrobots]

53. yes.

that's capital in america functions now. we've become the target of neoliberal madness that was directed mostly at south america and asia over the last 30 years. bush's and the neocons gave money to corporations by privatizing war abroad. obama and the neoliberals give money to corporations by privatizing everything at home...starting with education and health care.

[edc]

90. It's more than that.

The notion that government can compel any citizen or resident to make purchases from private vendors and subsidize those compulsory purchases with public money is another giant goose step toward fascism.

[Name removed]

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[Enthusiast]

171. Hardly. There was never a stronger move

toward fascism than under Bush the stupid.

If there was a mandate, and also the buy in or strong public option, most of us would support it wholeheartedly. Not so much Republicans like yourself. Or, are you one of those stupid tea bagger?

[DirtyDawg]

18. I think it's time Howard....

...called a spade a spade and went after his 'arch-enemy'...the guy most likely responsible for scuttling his candidacy for Prez and overseeing the 'effin' up of this heath-care bill stuff...Rahm Emanuel. This is the bluedog prick that has Obama's ear and it's killing any hope that the Obama Presidency will accomplish anything, maybe not even a second term. I'd like to see Howard run in the Primaries if for no other reason to push Obama back into the fold and send Emanuel over to the Repugs for good.

As Bluto Blutarsky said...Marmalard - Dead, Niedemeyer - Dead, Lieberman - Dead, Emanuel - Dead...and there are probably a few more that he would have thought of.

[ArcticFox]

56. That's right, its Emanuel's fault. Don't blame Obama

Those republicans were really onto something with their "anointed one" sarcasm. Some people just can't see the truth: Obama talks a good talk, but trends to the right in his walk.

He deceived all those people who donated $10, $20, spent their free time getting him elected.

Nothing of the past year has been "change we can believe in."

[truedelphi]

77. Obama is an adult. & he choose Rahm, & yet many act like Obama is the

Subordinate who somehow has to oppose someone with more power than him.

[No Elephants]

144. Obama has his own mind. And why do you think he picked Rahm anyway?

Rahm had made his bones and his reputation well before Obama had. Obama knew whom he was hiring and why.

If Obama is that gullible, that easily led and that unable to make his own calls, despite having the most powerful job in the world, then Obam should never be POTUS anyway. So, you are not saving Obama at all by trying to divert the blame from Obama to Rahm.

Meanwhile, the hideous sound you hear is Harry Truman rolling over in his grave.





Please let one of our truly great Presidents rest in peace. He richly deserves it.

[Metta]

29. The rotten is the enemy of the good.

You go, Howard. :toast:

[change_notfinetuning]

45. And the absolutely rotten is the enemy absolutely.

And this bill is absolutely rotten.

[Vidar]

34. K&R.

[YewNork]

37. And if the bill were killed here is what would happen

1) They'd start over.
2) Nothing would be passed in 2010, especially as the election drew near
3) Disgusted Democrats will refrain from voting, and the swing voters will vote Republican to see if maybe they can work better - so now the Dems no longer have a majority in one or both houses.
4) We can try again for health reform in 20 years.

[Better Believe It]

39. There wouldn't be any trillion dollar bailout of the insurance industry paid for by taxpayers!

And that's bad?

No more handouts!

[ArcticFox]

60. So lets dig our graves even deeper!

Here's what happens if they pass it:

1) Government hands our tax money to insurance companies in the form of "subsidies" to working people.
2) Insurance companies begin negotiating higher payments to doctors, so that they can incur more costs, so that they can raise their rates, so that their 10% of premiums grows (with 90% of premiums required to go to treatment costs, there is no other way for the insurance companies to increase income).
3) Disgusted progressives join with disgusted republicans and libertarians and independents to oppose the candidacy of all the democrats that voted to transfer wealth to insurance companies.
4) Republican landslide in 2010 and 2012.
5) Republicans cut taxes further in 2011 and decide that, what with all the "subsidies" we're spending to pay for poor peoples' insurance, we just can't afford medicare or medicaid anymore.
6) Those on medicare and medicaid are forced to buy insurance. Insurance companies are given further "subsidies" to cover them.
7) Insurance companies receive more and more money to bribe congress to give them more and more money and less and less regulation.

Your list is based on at least two flawed assumptions that I will clarify here:
1) Regardless the size of Democrats' majority in either house of Congress, they will continue to act as if they need just one or two more seats in order to pass legislation.
2) Further health reform will not be possible if this "reform" passes. Further work on the issue will simply lock in the bad provisions while diluting whatever help this "reform" might actually provide to regular people.

Unfortunately, many many people are buying into fear politics. "If this doesn't pass, then we'll never get anything good" is inaccurate and comes at it from the wrong angle. What if this does pass? I think I've pretty accurately summarized the results above.

[Sherman A1]

89. Well

right now this is one disgusted Democrat that is really considering sitting out the 2010 elections and we have an open senate seat.


You just have to ask yourself, why bother?

[No Elephants]

146. Don't sit them out. That sends, at best, an unclear message.

Maybe you had strep on election day. Maybe you are apatheticc. Maybe Americans just don't care what goes on in Washington. You will NOT help yourself or the country by sending a mixed message and you may hurt yourself even more.

What I suggest:

First, get involved in your local Party and do your best to primary the idjiots. Support their opponents. Tell the DNC to change its policy of supporting incumbents, no matter what.

If all else fails, write in someone whose ideas you DO support, even if they are not eligible in your jurisdiction. Ted Kennedy, Dean, Michael Moore (Sicko)--a name that sends an umistakeable message that you support liberals, especially when it comes to health reform (or whatever issue means most to you).

[Sherman A1]

155. Oh, I will most likely vote

there will be local issues and such with which to consider. I may simply skip anything that involves a candidate for any office. That may or may not send a clear message, but at this point I really don't know if I care.

[Enthusiast]

176. We need to vote

more than ever before. We simply need to elect better candidates.

[No Elephants]

145. Maybe, but even worse will happen to the nation and the Party if we pass a POS.

The clusterfuck in D.C. since 2006, including particularly over health care/insurance reform is going to cost us votes, no matter what. Maybe taking decisive, definitive action and telling the American public that the Republicans and the Purple Snakes doomed reform will help, rather than hurt. In any case, the only thing worse than no bill is a bad bill.

[galileoreloaded]

38. Somebody's getting ready to run for President!!! n/t

[PassingFair]

40. More like: " Somebody CARES about the American People"...

I don't think he will run, and if he does,
I don't think he would win, although I'd work
my tail off for him...

The American public gets the representation it
deserves.

There are a lot of assholes in this country.

[Le Taz Hot]

59. I worked for him in 2004

and I'd do it again but ONLY if he removes himself from this farce called the Democratic Party.

[No Elephants]

147. HIGHLY unlikely. (Unfortunately)

[dmosh42]

42. At the least, the mandated insurance clause should be stripped! n/t

[Zoeisright]

43. I'm so disgusted.

I think this country is done for, and there's not much we can do about it.

[rapturedbyrobots]

54. we can move

no, seriously. i'm moving out of this country as soon as i finish my ph.d. program. the writing is on the wall. u.s. is declining on every measurable metric that matters to me for quality of life. time to find greener pastures. not for everyone, but something to think about.

[Le Taz Hot]

61. No, WE can't move.

Too many of WE are over 50 and they don't want us. We worked for YOUR civil rights and equal rights for women and got us the hell out of Viet Nam. Thanks a lot for stickin' around for us! :hugemiddlefinger:

And <flush> for cowardice.

[rapturedbyrobots]

74. maybe you can't

but many can...that's the 'we' i was addressing. sorry, but i don't subscribe to this nationalist crap. i grew up moving around a lot. i know there are alternatives, some better some worse. the only thing currently holding me here is a graduate studies program, and the only thing that would make me reconsider staying is that i'm not sure i could relocate my mother with me. your situation maybe different. but to a lot of young people, moving out of the country is an option...and possibly a good one. and i owe you nothing except maybe a thank you. but to stay and continue your failed battles is not my responsibility. i don't want to propagate the mindset that we can address the 'ills' of capital...as if they are irregularities that have to be ironed out...instead of injustices that are inherent and necessary to capital. they are here to stay. so we can either opt out...and reimagine a new reality...because currently capital has left no 'outside'...thus it must be imagined. and why not reimagine this somewhere else? i'm sorry you failed to prevent the rise of late capitalism in the u.s. (and subsequently everywhere)...and now we have to find ways to live in the mess. but there's a whole generation of people who have grown up in a condition of displacement under neomodernity. the nationstate has ceased to exist as an institution under globalization...remaining only an idea in YOUR head tying you to a tiny parcel of land on one side of an arbitrary border. to hell with that. if i can live better and have my labor valued more simply by relocating...then why not? its not cowardice. i'm doing as much as possible to improve my local situation, and that of my friends and family. but we are acutely aware that our situation is localized and temporary. but under your logic i guess anyone who ever immigrates is just a coward and an ingrate to the previous generations who fought so hard to get them everything they have. i'll be sure to pass that message on to my entire family who immigrated from mexico. you sound like a cranky old man. get a clue.

[Name removed]

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[totodeinhere]

44. I wish Dean would run against Obama in the 2012 primaries.

He would get my vote in a heartbeat.

[Le Taz Hot]

62. He'd need to run 3rd party.

Remember, it was the DEMOCRATS who did him in in 2004.

[totodeinhere]

64. I wouldn't support a thrid party. But...

I am not so sure that your analysis is correct. It is not unheard of for an incumbent Dem prez to be challenged in the primaries. Remember when Teddy Kennedy took on Carter in 1980? Of course he lost, but it was a credible challenge. If Obama continues to move to the right I could seriously envision a progressive Dem taking him on in the primaries. It would be especially tempting for a progressive to take the plunge if it looks like that GOP might run a weak candidate such as Palin.

[Le Taz Hot]

67. Yes, but in 1980

there was still a semblance of a real Democratic Party left. Not so now. The "Democrats" would throw all their power against him but from WITHIN the party. He is a populist and would run much better getting out of that cesspool called the "Democratic Party."

[Name removed]

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[No Elephants]

152. Hillary is at least as corporate and conservative as Obama, if not more so.

She is one of the original members of DLC and she sat on the board of Wal-Mart.

I knew that I had been wrong to support Obama when he appointed Bubba's chief of staff as his own chief of staff and then appointed so many other Clinton re-treads.

Hillary voted for the war in Iraq and the War on Terra resolutions and the Patriot Act Reauhorizations. The idea that, if Obama is too corporatist and conservative for you, you'll love Hillary is, forgive my bluntness, just laughable.

Thanks a lot, but no thanks.

I'm voting for a progressive next time, not wasting my vote on a DLC type DINO or a PINO, even if I have to write in his or her name.

The coporatists buy enough votes. They're not getting mine anymore, not for free and not for all the money in the world.

[Enthusiast]

177. Zactly. nt

[Name removed]

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[NorthCarolina]

168. Hillary is as Conservative as Obama. They both push the agenda of the DLC (nt)

[No Elephants]

151. Yes, Kennedy did that, but he lost the primary and then Carter lost the general to

de-regulatin' Ronnie, which ultimately led to many of the ills we are still treading water trying to combat today.

Taken on an incumbent President does not do wonders for your Party. On the other hand, if you have trouble differentiating between the results your Party gets and the results Republicans get, maybe that is okay.

[bobthedrummer]

91. President Obama's Press Secretary Robert Gibbs did the Dean/bin Laden flash ad when he was working

for Kerry, right after Dean's strength showed in Iowa. Yes, his own party pushed him under the bus...glad I've remained an independent voter that has done much for the Democratic party even though the DLC threw me and millions of others (traditional base of Democratic voters) under the bus in favor of global corporatism back in the 1980's...

[No Elephants]

149. Yep, especially the DLC, with the help of the media, of course. But Democratic

voters sure bought into it.

[Bushknew]

73. Mine too

[MissDeeds]

79. Mine too

I hope a draft Dean movement is launched soon. His time has come.:toast:

[Illuminated]

174. +1 For Dean..

Dean is speaking the truth to power. Rahm and Axelrod need to go. Where did the Obama of the campaign go?

[Goldstein1984]

48. Drop the Health Care "Reform" Bill and start over

The reasons have already been stated clearly by Dean and the DU posts.

[neuvocat]

49. The bill has no chance of passing now.

There's going to be a delay from both sides of the aisle. Back to the drawing board.

[Name removed]

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[xchrom]

52. Recommend

[democrank]

55. Thank you, Dr. Dean.

Thank you for your courage.

[harun]

57. Pull back the curtain Dean !!!!

[Le Taz Hot]

63. It's WAAAYYY past time for him

to stop trying to be a "team player" and work with the Democrats. They've demonstrated time and again that they have no intention of working with him.

[NoodleyAppendage]

69. HOWARD DEAN FOR PRESIDENT. Seriously. We need true leadership, not corporate whoredom. n/t

J

[defendandprotect]

70. Right -- because it's our job to save capitalism from itself, but not our citizens!!!

Unregulated captialism is organized crime --

[girl_interrupted]

71. K&R

[nradisic]

72. The Dr. is always right...

I supported, donated to and campaigned for Howard Dean in 2004. He was, is and will always be the best chance for a Progressive America we will ever have. Listen very carefully to what he says and act. Contribute to DFA!

[No Elephants]

154. Have you checked out the first page of the DFA website lately?

[Hubert Flottz]

75. Those poor old insurance companies need a break more than granny

And granny can't make those big campaign donations/bribes.

[mod mom]

78. Thi is from someone w expertise and no strings to lobbyists or corporate interest.

Thank you Dr/Gov Dean!

[MissDeeds]

80. K&R for Dean!

Give 'em hell, Howard!

:kick:

[BobRossi]

81. Oh shit.

There's that God-damn truth thing again.

[hgovernick]

82. Howard Dean's motivation...

I've been reading all over the blogosphere about the Administration's negative reaction to Howard Dean's comments regarding dropping the health care bill as it stands now.

My common sense tells me:

Most of the idiots in Congress are worried about their next elections.
Most of the idiots in Congress are lawyers, not doctors.

Howard Dean has nothing politically to gain by telling the truth about Health Care. Howard Dean is also a doctor. I trust Howard Dean.

I'm finished with "change we can believe in". I'd like to see Bernie Sanders, Ron Paul, Alan Grayson and a handful of others run independently next election.

[midnight]

84. The Dr. knows what is talking about. And I trust him too.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

83. SNAP!

/archaic expletive

[Hulk]

85. Make a bill we can be proud of.....

...and then let the sons-of-bitches vote it down. I've had it with trying to appease these corporate shills in Washington. Let's have them called out.

If it doesn't pass this time around, we'll turn this country upside down until we can get a single payer, public option. Enough of this licking the dick of the liverwurst. He can go to hell where he belongs. Strip the f*cktard of his chairmanship, and toss his ass out in the cold. I just absolutely HATE that prick thinking he's important for holding the American public hostage. F*CK HIM!!

And as for nelson, love, and whoever else has no spine to do what is right for Americans and tell these big insurance corporations to get screwed....we can deal with them in the elections. I'd rather have NOTHING...than to have this shit. F*ck it! I'll go the emergency ward and let them deal with me. The insured can carry my bill. What an ass backward country we live in.

[julian09]

92. hurt joe petition

Tried twice could't get page.

[mother earth]

88. Dean is actually representing "We the people", K & R, and he's

right on as usual.

[Canuckistanian]

93. Just say no to "Lieberman Health Care Reform"

Because that's what it boils down to.

[Garam_Masala]

94. YES! Big Pharma and Big Insurance will get $900 Billion

You and I get Mandates.

[lovuian]

96. By 2014 the system will have completely collapsed

and the American people will Rise up

[No Elephants]

153. Why wait until 2014 to rise up? And, if we don't rise up before then, we probably never will.

[Initech]

97. So what's it gonna take to rid ourselves of our corporate overlords?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Garam_Masala]

101. American R E V O L U T I O N eom

[Bushknew]

98. If Dean runs for the presidency, I guarantee my vote to him...

I guarantee I will not vote for Obama again.

[Garam_Masala]

102. Yes, I wanted him over the French looking John Kerry eom

[Le Taz Hot]

162. Just a reminder that Kerry voted

AGAINST the Amendment that would have enabled Americans to buy imported drugs. Him and 29 other "Democrats."

[Bette Noir]

99. Gov. Dean would have made a good President.

Too bad the media wouldn't let him get the nomination.

[Garam_Masala]

103. Mainly because he so doggone HONEST

There is nothing phony or hypocritical about Dean.

[gelinas]

100. Dean's right

Let's see...no new competition for insurance companies, insurance companies are required to expand coverage in policies but lack of price controls permit the insurance companies to raise prices....looks like Dean's right again!

[felinetta]

104. I watched Dean on Matthews tonite and I applauded Matthews. And even Marcos of Daily Kos was

not throwing in the towel yet.  

[reformist]

105. Yet one more reason why we must take money out of political campaigns

I'm beginning to believe *real* campaign finance reform must come before any other problem can honestly be tackled... When politicians aren't beholden to a host of (largely corporate) campaign donors, only then will politicians feel free to speak their minds - and vote that way too. Campaign finance reform is the sine qua non of reforms.

[NorthCarolina]

107. The bill sucks, and the "mandate" that Obama battled Hillary on in the primaries will hurt many. nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

109. can't they just alter the bill to include single payer and pass it before Christmas?

without warning

[nightrain]

110. obama's okay with this? Interesting... so big Pharma and insurance corporations

have gotten what they were promised in July in those not so transparent meetings... interesting... Thanks Obama... :sarcasm: I'm wishing that I didn't spend all those volunteer hours for Obama to get this crap.

[lonestarnot]

112. Mr. President, you fucked up.

[deacon]

114. That he did. n/t

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[deacon]

113. Obama will go down as another failed president on health care if he signs this travesty.

It's a terrible bill and Dean is 100% correct.

[New Dawn]

115. K&R - FUCK the Fascist "Individual Mandate"!

Once the insurance conglomerates have their fascist Mandate in place, they will be free to massively jack up their prices on their shitty low-coverage "insurance." Individuals who resist will be heavily fined by the IRS, and those who refuse (or are unable) to pay the IRS fines will then be imprisoned. The USA already has the largest prison population in the world (5% of the world's population, 25% of its prisoners).

[Illuminated]

175. The Olberman Position..

That is what Keith was talking about last night. Refuse to submit.

[Odin2005]

117. KILL THE BILL!

[mstinamotorcity]

118. okay we all

know this bill is a piece of hot garbage.It has to go through several more stages before it ends up on the President's desk. Howard Dean is angry just as we all are. But lets put some of the blame where it belongs. This is not the Obama bill until his John Hancock is on it.The s--t that they are trying to peddle is the result of your blue dogs and your famous independent. Their loyalty is not to the working class or moderate to low income voters. They are the proud parents of the insurance and pharma corps. We have been sold out from the very start. Public Option,Medicare for Everyone,Health Exchange to me it didn't matter what you called it as long as people who need health care coverage were able to obtain it. From day one when our President was sworn into office the trolls put out a memo that told them no matter what the President tried to do in his administration,say no,vote no.And they have stuck together like glue.We the dems on the other hand have not always done the same.Like now we are straying off the real thing that we need to be thinking about. Like finding out the secrets of the blue dogs and anyone else that gets in the way of the things that help our country as a whole. I just think its about time to fight fire with fire. We worked hard to have a change we can believe in but we did not finish developing the landscape. We should have removed some of those old shrubs and replaced them with new ones. I have insurance but by the time you get through with co-pays and medications that they don't cover don't think that it doesn't start to eat at the wallet. What about the people who are working jobs and contributing to society.but have no health insurance.I don't want this bill and i know a lot of you feel the same. But i think we need to do some house and senate cleaning so that we can revisit this issue.It will pass,we will cry,life goes on.Remember 2010 and 2012 vote vote vote

[No Elephants]

156. Obama is supporting the bill you call a hot piece of shit, but you don't want to blame him?

He is currently the head of the Democratic Party and the majority of the House and Senate are Democrats who owe their allegiance to the Democratic Party. He is telling the House and Senate that he likes what you call a hot piece of shit and wants it passed before Christmas. Yet, you want to absolve him of blame and blame only the House and Senate? Why doesn't he at least share the blame?

[mstinamotorcity]

164. No i don't

want to let him off the hook for anything. But you cannot charge this to the game. The game was set up before he got there. We did not get rid of the blue dogs nor did we press for mr. independents chairmanships when we saw the color of his stripe.You thought you had a majority democratic everything, but that was in party name only.The conversations on DU and other progressive websites have talked about these things for years. We all know that we were going to see where their loyalties lied. So yes he is supposed to rally the democratic party behind him to get the peoples concerns through. But the operative words are democratic party. If they are blue dogs and independents they are playing at being a democratic member of the party. So he didn't have their support and nor did we. Because they were already in corporate pocket from the start.

[Name removed]

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[butterfly77]

190. Do you really think that..

some fake Dems were going were going to go along with his agenda. These people were shocked that he won the election and have been planning this shit all along. These people are really republiCONs notice how they jump out of their box at a strategically place time during negotitations. Another problem is the Democrats where in the hell was everybody when those damn teabaggers started showing up at these townhalls with their bullshit.


Now,we all know the media has been crying since day one about is it Obama's economy yet so they could get started with the bashing.It doesn't matter how many damn meetings he has with these people because they never intended for it to pass anyhow. These people are working for the insurance companies not us.

A lot of people don't even know what in the hell is going on anyway they are just naive and uninformed. By the way HELLO TROLLS,FREEPERS AND OTHER RIGHTWING ASSHOLES!! your plan is not working we are not getting fooled again!! Even though I never was...

[BanTheGOP]

120. PASS THE DAMN BILL WITH SINGLE PAYER FIRST...

...then we regulate the hell out of the private republican nazi health care providers. It will be easy to take over for them ONCE WE GET A BILL PASSED.

We can come back later and jail the bastards, but first we need the mechaninism in place. DON'T LET THIS DETER YOU.

Dean and Olbie should know better.

[Name removed]

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[No Elephants]

161. Yes! Yes! Yes!

[Name removed]

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[mdmc]

134. glad your posting

we have needed these reforms for over 29 years now, so kudos for Obama for giving it a go.

I don't like it much - but it is all we can get..

[No Elephants]

157. It's all we can get ONLY if we accept that it is all we can get.

[Suji to Seoul]

139. Over 600 posts ago, I was the same way when I ex-pat out of the States

to Asia.

At that point, I was pissed that real progressive candidates were tossed aside and we were left with a centrist DLC sell out (Hillary) and a budding corportist (Obama). I chose Obama.

I am not happy with the choice and have told Democrats Abroad I want NOTHING to do with the party if the Health Care reform bill dies or is passed with no strong public option.

I will vote for my representative Raul Grijalva, but I will stay home on everything else.

I am that seriously pissed off.

Welcome to DU.

[No Elephants]

158. Please see Reply 146.

[JTFrog]

150. Welcome back. n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

163. The answer is that they're all

sucking off the same corporate teet and we're expected to pay for the pig and it's maintenance. We are now, officially, a one-party system.

[Name removed]

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[ronnie624]

192. Wow, you are *so* 'progressive' and 'liberal' and stuff.

Lol.

[No Elephants]

159. CONTACT your Rep and your Senators and tell them that you agree with Dr. Dean and will work

in 2010, 2012 and 2014 to DEFEAT in a primary anyone and everyone who votes for a bill that does not include Medicare for all (the perfect) or a strong and meaningful public option (the good). Anything else is unacceptable, not "the perfect being enemy of the good." (If nothing else, it's time we put that lie to bed.)

If passing a bill that provides for Medicare for all or a strong and meaningful public option requires using reconciliation and/or the nuclear option, so be it. If, however, the best the Democrats can do is put a good bill up for a vote and let the Purple Snakes and the Republicans put their names on its defeat, so be it. Let the jerks own defeating reform and let Americans know whom to target in 2010, 2012 and 2014.


Then, follow up on your threat. And please see Reply 146,

[icee]

172. I've been doing that for days now......

d

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[patrice]

166. So, did AIG weaken everything so much that what we are REALLY doing here is another Bailout?

Does it work that way?

Is that the actual function of HCR, to save InsCo?

[Skittles]

178. let's call it what it really is: A SCAM

[Name removed]

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