Dean: I Won’t “Vigorously” Support Obama’s Re-Election ("You Can Actually Save This Bill")

[Hissyspit]

Source: MSNBC

Dean: I won’t “vigorously” support Obama’s re-election

By Sahil Kapur
Thursday, December 17th, 2009 -- 9:20 am

WASHINGTON -- Escalating his opposition to what remains of the health care legislation, former Gov. Howard Dean has taken more swipes at President Obama, after a contentious back-and-forth that led to Press Secretary Robert Gibbs publicly sniping at him on Wednesday.

Dean, who outspokenly championed the public option and also supported the Medicare buy-in, said Thursday on MSNBC's Morning Joe that he won't "vigorously" support Obama's re-election in 2012. "I'm going to support President Obama when he runs for re-election," Dean, also a former DNC Chair, said. "Not vigorously. I'm going to vote for him."

Although Dean hasn't withdrawn his support for Obama, he is a leading voice in the progressive community, and his dialed-down support of the Obama presidency as a result of this health care bill is likely to represent and ultimately fuel the sentiments among the president's core constituency.

Read more: http://rawstory.com/2009/12/dean-vigorously-support-obamas-reelection

---

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/vp/34461661#34461661

Dean: Health Bill Can Still Be Saved

DEAN: "This bill makes insurance more expensive in Vermont."

"Where this bill hit the skids was the Senate finance committee."

"You can actually save this bill. If you strip down the Senate bill, got all the insurance company stuff out there... The House has a fairly decent bill. It's certainly not perfect, but it's one I would support. If you passed the House bill, if you put back in a public option - which doesn't look likely because they already missed their chance to do that, because they didn't do reconciliation - there are some things in here that can work and can be helpful.

Or. Bernie Sanders suggested about three or four weeks ago, that we just strip the stuff down, put in the money for the infrastructure, expand Medicare and Medicaid, or if they won't expand Medicare, at least expand Medicaid to cover all kids like we did. And then you can come back at it a year after, when we have a new Congress. And everybody says 'oh my god, we'll never do that!' Why not? That's your job."

TIME'S MIKE HALPERIN: "I'm confused about what you want to have happen next? Why not pass a bill in the Senate, even if you don't like it. Go to a conference committee with the House and see if something emerges from that next step, that you like?"

DEAN: "How likely do you think it is that the people who vetoed this bill in the Senate aren't going to veto the conference committee?

- snip -

If you stripped out all the insurance protection, you'd have a stripped-down bill that doesn't offend anybody except the insurance lobby. It would be really hard to vote against a bill that had all the good things in it, but didn't have all the insurance company protections. I'd like to get rid of the individual mandate at this point. Why should we force Americans to pay insurance companies and have thirty percent of that taken away for the CEO salaries making 20 million dollars a year?

- snip -

"Look, here's the deal. Every politician says this, and I hesitate to do it, because they all say it. But, sometimes, the country is more important than either party. I'm going to support President Obama when he runs for re-election, not vigorously... I'm gonna vote for him.

- snip -

Be fair. He's done a terrific job on the environment. He's done an incredible job restoring America to its proper place in the world with respect. But this. I happen to know a lot about this. This is my life's work... This bill sets the tone for what happens in health insurance reform for the rest of the history of the country. And if you start making concessions just to get votes from people who really don't have the best interests of ordinary people, i.e. who care about insurance companies, then you put this country on a trajectory which is a disaster. And that, in my view, is what the Senate bill does.

- snip -

It's because they are absorbed into a process where the only goal is to get this bill passed. And the problem is, in that short-term thinking, they've lost sight of what's going to happen when this bill goes out. I KNOW what this bill is going to do when it goes out, because I've been doing this for... fifteen years ago, we did what they're trying to do now. And if you make a small mistake and give the insurance companies the upper hand, and this bill gives the insurance companies the upper hand, by simply getting rid of state regulation. That's what it does."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/vp/34461861#34461861

Axelrod: Killing health bill would be 'tragic'

Senior White House advisor David Axelrod says he's "bewildered" by the efforts of some Democrats to kill the health care bill.

[Buzz Clik]

1. The left is convinced that Obama is a sellout, and the right is convinced that Obama is a Marxist.

In the world of politics, we're all bellied up to the bar of insanity and drinking deeply.

[defendandprotect]

34. Are you surprised the right wing continues to replay the McCarthy Era . . .

or that everything they see is "pinko" . . . ???

Let me recommend Jane Hamsher's article on this subject --

and her diagnosis which is undeniable -- CORPORATISM/FASCISM --

[Buzz Clik]

153. Yeah. Undeniable.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

207. Well, do you want to grace us with your counter opinion . . . ???

Are you saying the underlying cause of our problems isn't to do with

corporate money or corporate control of government and elected officials?

[Buzz Clik]

217. For McCarthy, the paranoia was about all things communist.

For some here, it's paranoia about all things monied.

In neither case are things so simple. Do we ever learn anything?

[defendandprotect]

222. You seemed to disagree with Jane Hamsher on corporatism . . .

I think we do learn things --

In many cases they are absolutely clear --

It was clear to Teddy Roosevelt in the early 1900's that we must "bar

corporations from any participation whatsoever in our elections" ...

It's also clear that capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended

to move a nation's wealth and resources from the many to the few.

It's clear to most of us that unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime.

And that corporatism is fascism.




There was an old Russian joke that went like this . . .

"Q: What's the difference between capitalism and communism?

A: Under capitalism man exploits man --

Under communism it's just the reverse."

[rhett o rick]

192. The right has toned down the anti communist rhetoric since they are doing business with China

Now they are anti-socialists.

[Jackpine Radical]

195. Beautiful line.

[Hissyspit]

200. UPDATE: Dean just said on Ed that he would support Obama "vigorously."

Apparently, in his appearance on Morning Joe, he was going to say something else after "not..." and then said "vigorously,"

Completely confusing. Even Joe and Mika thought he said "not vigorously."

[defendandprotect]

205. China had money -- Bush was in there very early -- just another nation for

capitalists to exploit --

Also big business for Catholic Church and other patriarchal religions now --

But you can still hear the echoes of their "Commies are coming!" propaganda among

their followers and -- even still on DU on occasion!

[rhett o rick]

219. Yeah but who is exploiting who? nt

[defendandprotect]

225. I'd guess that the odds are in favor of TPB to ultimately use

capitalism to take over China . . .

isn't that the plan?

Yes, at the moment we have China's money to cover our debt --

but China has all of our jobs --

That hurts the poor and middle class American, not the elites who are rolling in profits

from these trade agreements.

I imagine TPB feel rather sure of the outcome -- they've been working on this for decades

and probably more. While creating jobs, they have also ensured that China is well armed --

Oops! Maybe China will be enemy #1 again some time soon???


Bush, Sr., Eagleburger, Kissinger -- have all long been active in China --

[mother earth]

208. Well said, kudos to Hamsher for nailing it.

[defendandprotect]

226. Yes -- no one should miss the Jane Hamsher article/comments . . .

:)

[mother earth]

255. Got that right, between her and Jeremy Scahill, my heart

is afire and my conviction renewed, time to stop the BS. Awaken the masses, defendandprotect, go forth and multiply :toast:

[Riverman]

57. Oh Yeah "The Left" That One - A Majority of Americans who Support

a public option.

[Buzz Clik]

92. My problem is not the flaws in the bill or the maddening lack of a public option...

... it is the assignment of blame. Obama did not write this bill.

[girl gone mad]

157. "The buck always stops somewhere else"

Should be the WH slogan.

[snagglepuss]

178. +1

[Buzz Clik]

201. What a load of bullshit. Why not look to those who are truly to blame?

[Dragonfli]

231. If he doe's not veto it, it won't matter who typed it, but who approved it...

By the way, Presidents have always used their influence as "leader of the party" to push forward and help shape bills.

A President has the ability to let congress know what he wants in the bill or out of the bill in a very direct and simple way, by being honest with those putting it together on what he would or would not veto (in public or private depending on the politics), a much more powerful legislative maneuver than a filibuster threat by a Senator IMO.

There are many things he could threaten a member of his party with if they were to betray the party for the republicans or the people for a corporate bribe, he could take away access to the administration, rally the caucus to take away chair positions, refuse support in an election, and many other things. History is full of examples of this and so I wonder a bit if your feigning your ignorance of the part the executive plays in promoting and shaping legislature that was campaigned on and promised by that executive.

Perhaps you are just parroting what you may have heard from Rahms PR Dept.
Do not believe it my friend, look instead to how things have been done by presidents throughout history.

In any event, the buck does stop with the veto pen, congress can't control that...

[amandabeech]

160. Do you think that Congress would have taken up healthcare now if it hadn't been for Obama's campaign

promise?

Obama instigated this and he gave Congress the outline for this. I'm sure that the President's staff work behind the scenes on the bill with Congress. If he didn't have anyone doing this, he is a fool.

If he had emulated LBJ, he would have pressed harder and made some deals to get votes for a good plan, maybe we'd have something halfways decent. And yes, he gave away a lot to Big Pharma before this thing got going.

The fact that the bill was not actually written in the Oval Office is beside the point. This is Obama's idea and he'll most of the blame for it if folks don't like it.

If this is a bad bill, we can blame him if we lose in 2014 and worse, 2016.

[suzie]

182. Do you understand that LBJ was able to get Republican votes to help him pass

legislation and to get past the conservative Democrats in his own party? Where are the Republican votes now?

Do you also realize that LBJ had the specter of a popular young dead president to hold over the Congress in negotiating?

And finally, do you understand that LBJ was a tough negotiator because he should never have become president? He had years in the Senate to give him an ability to lean on people for legislative favors. But, HE WASN'T SELECTED AS A CANDIDATE OR ELECTED TO THE PRESIDENCY BY HIMSELF.

That person was John F. Kennedy, who would have had many of the same problems with the Congress as Obama, if he had lived.

Most current "progressives" would have hated LBJ, but it is so wonderful to make the constant negative comparisons.

[JDPriestly]

228. The Democratic Party was divided into Southern Democrats and Northern Democrats.

The religious crazies were not such a big political force. Nixon built the Republican Party in the South on a campaign of subtle racist innuendo. Back then, northern Republicans were a pretty sensible lot. Reagan turned the Republican Party over to the right-wing conservatives. So, the political landscape was very different. You can't compare it.

Further, Johnson was elected on his own merit in 1964. You can argue that he would not have been running had Kennedy lived. That is certainly true. But let's set the record straight. Johnson was selected as a candidate and elected to the presidency by himself in 1964.

[tomp]

245. ....not to mention the ongoing and progressive capitulation to the right...

...by the democrats since johnson's time. we have a single corporatist party with two factions, one of which disguises itself as friend of the people. obama is the leader of that faction. and frankly, this is beyond debate at this point in history.

[amandabeech]

256. No need to shout. It is incredibly rude.

Check out JDPriestly's post about the Republican party at the time, and do a little Googling.

I'm well aware of everything in your post, and have posted on the topic before, although I don't agree with you on a few of your points.

I'm tired, and will not respond to any more of your posts.

[Buzz Clik]

202. I guess Obama is no Lyndon Johnson.

:party: :bounce: :toast: :smoke: :woohoo:

I lived through one Johnson administration. That was enough.

[JDPriestly]

227. Actually, I believe it was Edwards who pushed the discussion of health care.

[karynnj]

254. Not really, the Democrats have had many advocates for health care systems

All with longer resumees on it than Edwards. In fact, in 2004, both Dean and Kerry had far stronger healthcare plans than Edwards - he attacked both of them as being too ambitious.

For the 2008 run, Kerry actually was the first out with a truly universal plan that tweeked his excellent 2004 plan. It addressed the issue of mandates but chose to move to them only after several years of reducing costs. He gave a 2006 Faneuil Hall speech on it - before Edwards had a plan out.

[Iowa]

176. Pfft...

[Buzz Clik]

203. Back atcha.

[Demeter]

190. Obama Was Too Chicken to Write It or Appoint An Expert To Do So

or even to read his email and use it to draft a framework...

[Buzz Clik]

204. Uh. Yeah.

[mother earth]

209. No, he's been too concerned about bipartisanship and gave

away what the people want, to favor the slimeball blue dogs & Lieberman who have their pockets stuffed with special interest money. He never came out blazing or championing the cause, lame, lame, lame all the way. He deserves the anger from the left, he's losing his own base, the most important part of that base, along with credibility.

When people who have been steadfast dems their entire lives are ready to leave over more than one issue, he's got a HUGE credibility problem. And it's across the generations and health care is just one disappointment, factor in the surge, factor in no accountability for the criminals that were the previous administration...the list is growing.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

241. So your beef isnt with the bill itsself it is whether or not Obama gets blamed for it?

I guess you feel no need to hide your agenda.

[defendandprotect]

253. Who said Obama wrote it? Did Obama read it? .......Does he understand the issue? ....

In fact, Medicare for all is up and running and ready to go --

it would create 2.3 million jobs --

and help our economy greatly!!!

[Hissyspit]

63. EVERYONE PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO

and read the transcript.

(Buzz Clik: Not addressed to you. Just wanted to post this high in the thread now that my OP edit time is up.)

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shotten99]

140. Nope. He might as well be wearing a Palin/Huckabee 2012 button.

[Kermitt Gribble]

87. Way to keep your head in the sand! Keep it up! n/t

[Buzz Clik]

150. I'm paying attention. That's how I noticed, in sharp contrast to those...

... who are running around with their heads up their asses screaming about the end of the world.

[Jim Sagle]

99. And the centrists are sellouts, just like Obama.

The difference between the left and the right is really quite simple: The left is telling the truth, and the right is lying.

As usual.

[Buzz Clik]

152. Gee. You sound a lot like Karl Rove. Proud of yourself?

[Jim Sagle]

172. Ahh yess...moral equivalence at its dumbest.

[Iowa]

177. +1

[snagglepuss]

179. +1

[spiritual_gunfighter]

242. Yeah, that was a bit embarrassing.

[Faryn Balyncd]

194. On this issue the left is right, and the right is simply nuts.

[John Q. Citizen]

212. That's known as triangulation. It hurts people but the corporations seem to like it.,

[Chan790]

244. I'm far beyond convinced...

I already KNOW Obama is a sellout. The only way he could convince me otherwise is to do the right thing and walk away from this already-failed piece of legislation.

No Bill Over This Bill!

[TwilightGardener]

2. Really tired of this back and forth. I think either Dean or Obama has some

hurt feelings (or both), and I'd rather they not air this in public--really not good for Democrats. WH, keep yer yap shut in regard to Dean. Dean, leave politics alone and stick to the bill.

[defendandprotect]

36. Without Dean, liberals/progressives couldn't figure out this was a DEFORM bill . . .

not to aid American citizens, but to aid corporations -- ????

:evilgrin:


Just in case . . . :sarcasm:

[Kermitt Gribble]

88. Pfffft! This horrible "reform" bill is what's not good for Democrats.

If they suffer losses in 2010 and 2012, it's their own fault.

[TwilightGardener]

94. I'm not opposed to Dean disagreeing publicly with the bill--but he needs to

stay constructive, not use wording that the GOPers would love to have as ammo.

[totodeinhere]

143. This has nothing to do with "hurt feelings." It has to do with substance.

This is a terrible bill. It's a step backward. Sure, they ban insurance companies from excluding for preexisting conditions, but then they turn around and allow them to charge these same people three times as much, effectively barring them from good health insurance anyway.

[TwilightGardener]

173. I'm not talking about the particulars of the bill. I'm talking about the

dialogue--which, IMO, reflects some anger or upset in the WH that Dean would publicly disagree with the bill at a crucial point.

[totodeinhere]

188. OK, I see where you're coming from and in that case I agree with you. Thanks. n/t

[JDPriestly]

229. It is a serious step backwards for Californians.

We have a lot of legal protections from the excesses of insurance companies that will disappear if this bill is enacted. I do not like this bill at all. It is harmful to Californians -- and we will be asked to pay for it while states like Louisiana and Montana and the Dakotas get lots of subsidies. I would like to see everyone insured but I would also like to see Democrats win in 2010 and 2012. This bill will just give lots and lots of red meat to Republicans. It will be a slaughter of Democrats in the coming elections. Just wait and see. This bill is rotten.

[Tippy]

3. OOPS......Gibbs should have kept his mouth shut....

[No Elephants]

42. Ah, yes. Gibbs and Axelrod are such mavericks. Always talking out of turn, they are.

[Illuminated]

127. Yea like it was a mistake on Gibby's part /sarc

[democrank]

4. Howard Dean should keep on speaking the truth

just like he has always done.

[bemildred]

5. I think it is too early to be making these decisions.

But if what we have seen so far is all Obama has got, I would be more than open to a challenge by someone that is willing to more vigorously challenge the status quo, the status quo is broken and it must undergo fundamental changes.

[SIMPLYB1980]

6. Good best he go hide under some rock.

[tekisui]

8. That's not going to happen. He is going to be a liberal thorn

in Obama's side, now.

[SIMPLYB1980]

10. And he will continue to be ignored.

[tekisui]

12. Which will harm Obama, Democrats and the American People.

It is sad to see an Administration that had such potential retreat into a smaller circle so early.

[SIMPLYB1980]

16. Oh well.

[David Zephyr]

81. Great observation, tekisui. This bunker mentality shows immaturity.

Obama and Axelrod were great at campaigning.

They are lousy at governing.

Obama's first priority as I've been posting since early summer should have been new job creation, not the healthcare matter.

Keystone cops.

[amandabeech]

162. I agree.

I've also been posting for some time that Obama's first priority should have been jobs and the economy.

Once people have some jingle in their pocketbooks, passing legislation promised during the campaign would be much easier.

Carville's strategy is alwys right--it's the economy stupid.

[stevenleser]

230. Me too. He should have passed an economic stimulus or something like that early on... oh wait...

:eyes:

:crazy:

[amandabeech]

257. It was not well crafted stimulus because it was very back loaded.

What's more, he should have delayed work on health care, cap'n'trade and the amnesty bill (which I think will be defeated) until he had a very financial regulation bill signed. The other stuff, while important, was and is not as immediately necessary as any bill relating to jobs and the economy.

[snagglepuss]

180. +1

[glitch]

210. Genuine healthcare reform, and not a massive giveaway to health insurance,

would actually have helped job creation too.

[No Elephants]

45. Ignored? LOL

[AlbertCat]

121. And he will continue to be ignored.

By whom? The only ones ignoring Dean are.... I dunno?

He's on the TV and in the papers and blogs a lot....and if he's not on they're talking about his opinion. He has a lot of threads on here. The WH is talking about his opinion on this crappy bill.

I don't see anyone ignoring him... not even you.


But I'll tell you who I'm ignoring from now on:
Those who think we need to pass anything at all, those who think this bill has "a lot of good stuff in it", those who don't realize the Dems have shot of their own foot off with this fiasco.

[rug]

123. Who posted that?

[katkat]

175. ignored

Go ahead and ignore us, until Obama loses in 2012.

[NashVegas]

26. I Do Not See HD as a "Liberal" Thorn in Obama's Side

Dean is, and has always been, a centrist. He is simply siding with what he views as a truth.

[No Elephants]

35. I'm not disagreeing with you. However, if Dean is a centrist, what are Obama and those who agree

with him?

[NashVegas]

55. Complete Cynics

[TheWatcher]

237. I think I can answer that question

Obama is the Latest Bill Of Goods.

Those who Blindly Agree with him unquestioningly are the ones who think the rest of us who are not fooled, as well as the rest of the country, should tow the line and pay the price they are willing to pay for said Bill Of Goods, just so they can feel good, feel like they've "won" something, and keep their eternal false paradigm alive. Reality is simply not an option for them, so it should not be an option for anyone else.

Sorry, I'm no longer buying.

[Hissyspit]

9. Discontent is ignored at the administration's peril.

[SIMPLYB1980]

13. I'm sure the administration is quaking in fear.

[Hissyspit]

Um, voters?

2012.

[SIMPLYB1980]

19. If he has already lost you why should he

care. The left can just hand the country back to the republicans if they wish.

[Hissyspit]

20. You might actually watch the video and see what Dean has to say.

[SIMPLYB1980]

24. I've seen it. I don't agree with it.

[tekisui]

21. Vote Democratic in 2010: Hey, at least we aren't repubbies!

Such pride in that.:eyes:

[Dr.Phool]

27. I'd rather hand it over to Dr. Dean.

[MissDeeds]

196. +1

:toast:

[progressoid]

38. Ah yes, blame the "left".

It's the left's fault that the Democratic Party has moved to the right.
It's the left's fault that the party is sleeping with corporations.

Blaming your failures on those that disagree always works out well.
:eyes:

We'll see a reverse of Ronald Reagan's "I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The party left me." But instead of going Republican they'll go Green or Independent.

[No Elephants]

41. Nope. The left handed the Democrats the country in 2006 and 2008. If that changes,

the Democrats who were in office just before the change will be the ones responsible for the change.


On edit: And, he "should" care because he can still win back anyone he's lost by changing his M.O. Continuing down this same path, though, isn't going to do it. And he does care, or Gibbs and Axelrod would not have gone nipping at Dean's ankles so quickly.

[pundaint]

64. Duh, the elected Democrats are the ones who have handed the country over

We need a party with a purpose

[TheWatcher]

238. Since Neither side seems to be on the side of We The People, the only difference would be that the

gangsters from the right at least play it straight, and act like who they are.

They are gangsters, thugs, criminals, thieves, and murderers, with no regard for the rule of law or the Constitution, and they make no effort to hide it.

They leave their stab marks on the front of the country, not the back.

Now, we will brace ourselves for more of your juvenile insults that have no point, and make no sense.

[defendandprotect]

37. As long as our elected officials can get corporate $$$, what do they have to fear from public????

[NeoConsSuck]

187. And you're not joking??

Hillary would have wiped the streets with Obama in the primaries, if it weren't for progressives backing Obama and turning his whole campaign around. There never would have been a presidential campaign for Obama if it weren't for progressives.

The DLC was solidly in the HC camp.

And right now, Dean is speaking for a LOT of progressives, including myself. And here is a little clue for you: A Democrat is not going to win a national election without progressives.

[TheWatcher]

239. You are providing a clue to someone who isn't capable of having one?

Very brave of you. :)

The Blind Faithers can't get it, and don't want to get it.

[Deep13]

69. Sure, the rest of us will be with him on election day. nt

[area51]

7. Dean wants to see Americans have decent healthcare,

which is more than what Obama wants. You'd think Obama would have more compassion for people / distrust for the mafiosi insurance agencies, after his mother's battles with them. But no, he wants Americans to become slaves of the insurance cartels.

[TwilightGardener]

17. OK, no--have to disagree. I do think Obama wants Americans to have

decent healthcare, because if they aren't happy with his plan, he's out of a job--and knows it. I think he's just more comfortable working WITHIN the system and with its players, trying to wheel and deal and extract whatever he can get from the powers-that-be, in exchange for this or that, rather than really shaking it up and creating a new structure.

[No Elephants]

43. The powers that be?

[TwilightGardener]

44. Please. You know I'm talking about Insurance, Pharma, the medical establishment.

[No Elephants]

66. The only power they have is the power the WH and Congress accord them.

They can neither legislate nor vote.

And, no, I did not know that you consider the corporations more powerful than the government of the U.S., so please yourself.

[TwilightGardener]

72. Of course I consider corporations more powerful--members of our Congress

are OWNED by the entities who paid the big bucks for their campaigns, and they legislate accordingly. I mean, I live in Ben Nelson's state--he was The Insurance Guy for Nebraska. Maybe I'm too cynical, but if you can't beat 'em, then at least get some concessions from them.

[No Elephants]

82. The corporations can't own anyone unless he or she chooses to sell out. So, I stand by my prior post

Corporations have only the power that the WH and Congreess give them. They CAN beat them, simply by not selling out.

[TwilightGardener]

85. I just assume they're all bought. It helps me keep my blood pressure down.

[No Elephants]

90. That may be so, but that begs the question of whose responsibility that is. I think people

are responsible for their own acts and omissions. Being offered money does not require anyone to change a vote or have the back of the offeror, or even to accept the damn money. So, the powers that be are not the ones offering money, but those who have the power to govern this country and CHOOSE to corrupt themselves. And those who let them off the hook and then re-elect them.

[julian09]

199. They don't have to buy them all

just enough to get their way with congress, especially the senate with fewer members.

[Enthusiast]

73. If what you say is true

, President Obama was completely unrealistic in believing he could work with these players. I don't think he ever believed that. Look how ridiculous the GOP, the Blue Dogs and LIEberman have been. How could you even think you could work with these freaks?

[TwilightGardener]

84. Do I think he was a little naive? Oh yeah. He had to walk back

his campaign promises on HCR, and that's a little humiliating. He must have learned pretty quick that trying to avoid the Clintons' mistakes wasn't enough to actually get a really good bill passed--I think he thought that if he conceded on some things right away (drug prices, single-payer, mandates, no real damage to insurance co profits), then Congress and the moneyed interests wouldn't really fight him too much on the PO or anything else, or else they risked public ire. But instead the public ire was directed at HIM and the plan itself (helped along by the Teabaggers). Definitely should have been handled better from the git-go, but we are where we are.

[katkat]

193. twilight

Obama has already said he doesn't know if he wants a second term or not. Why should he care, financially he's set for life. Book royalties already, later mega fees for speaking like Clinton gets, being on the boards of BigBusiness, he'll be rolling in dough besides the dough he already has.

[defendandprotect]

39. Of course, Obama is also heavily financed by corporations . .. .

What could we have really expected from that situation????

The voters also gave Obama $800 MILLION ... and nore --

As long as the Democratic Party can get corporate $$$ they aren't going to worry

about what the public thinks --!!

And as long as the only competitition vs the Democratic Party is the pro-fascist GOP,

the Democrats will continue to move to the right --

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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[jonnyblitz]

101. I believe that as well. nt

[Hippo_Tron]

158. That would be true of each and every one of his predecessors as well

In fact that's basically true about people in general. People put themselves first.

[Vidar]

11. I'd love to see Howard run against the collaborator.

[salguine]

67. Me too.

[totodeinhere]

146. I'm convinced that a credible progressive will run against him,

whether it's Dean, my first choice, or someone else. This time it will be different than either 1968 or 1980. The American people are mad enough this time to make it happen.

[Hawkeye-X]

14. Same here. I'll vote for him, but he won't have my $ or time.

[No Elephants]

97. Obama had money coming out of his nostrils. Votes are all he really needs. So, I am sorry

that you and Dr. Dean are taking the position that you are.

[madfloridian]

15. Dean was clear on Morning Joe....sometimes you put country above party.

and he said this bill set the tone for the future.

[AndrewP]

22. What a rare concept

[Jefferson23]

33. Yep, Dean is doing that, and please Obama shape up!

It is not too late for crying out loud.

[defendandprotect]

40. "Country above Party" . .. as it should be .... small "d" democracy . . !!!

[Aviation Pro]

47. Really. Country above party, huh? What if by Dr. Dean's actions...

...we end up with the female equivalent of Two Shoes McMoron Fuckstick?

You know, her.

[Hissyspit]

54. Or what if by Dr. Dean's actions...

...we end up with REAL health care reform that most Americans get behind and excited by and cause the re-election of President Obama?

[No Elephants]

61. If Palin wins, it will not be because of Dr. Dean's actions. Pls. see Reply 41,

Nothing Dr. Dean says could negate the actions of those in office.

Think about what you said. If Dr. Dean holds no elected office, yet what he says is more powerful than the actions of the WH and Congress combined, what does that say about the WH and Congress?

[Name removed]

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[Zodiak]

102. Don't care

So beyond caring about corporate candidate A or corporate candidate B

The fear mongering is not going to work, any more.

I had Bush for eight years, he sucked, and we got proto-fascism.

I had Obama for one year, he is sucking, too...and is sticking with proto-fascism.

So if we get a proto-fascist again, then it is what I expect if I vote for either party. One will be a proto-fascist pushing proto-fascism....the other will lie to me, and when elected, becomes a proto-fascist.

So the threat doesn't mean shit to me....seriously, come up with a better fear-mongering talking point.

[No Elephants]

49. To be more exact: Sometimes, you put the people of this country above Party.

Still, he said he would vote for Obama.

[tomm2thumbs]

18. Time to Re-Invent the Democratic Party - somewhere else...

The truths that built the party should be placed ABOVE the people who are currently in it trying to undermine those truths.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

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[NashVegas]

23. Holy. Shit.

Wow.

[pundaint]

80. thanks, that was an enlightening comment

or were you just trying to con us into clicking on your link?

[NashVegas]

105. I'm So Sorry

You're having such a bad day.

[NJmaverick]

25. He wasn't given a cabinet position like he wanted

so I am not surprised

[NashVegas]

28. Insults Say So Much More About the Person Delivering Them Than the Person They're Directed At

Just sayin' ...

[NJmaverick]

Well then what does that say about the scores of DUers insulting Obama and the Dems?

[No Elephants]

86. Maybe it says they put the principles of the Democratic Party above

the individuals who sell out those principles. Maybe it says that they think before they simply follow, that they are neither sheeple nor idolators.

I would say it probably depends upon the nature of the insult. For example, is it thoughtful and based in reality, or just and petty and fashioned from whole cloth?

[Illuminated]

128. That they all suck!

[pjt7]

29. Country Above Political Party

It's pretty simple.

[NJmaverick]

32. Supposedly, although I am betting a cabinet post would have had him singing a different tune.

[Hissyspit]

56. That's a hypothetical. He doesn't have a cabinet post...

so it's kind of beside the point.

Are you saying if he had a cabinet post, he would be less likely to tell the truth as he sees it - in other words, he might not say that the bill now in it's "present form" SHOULD be killed?

[No Elephants]

93. Again, baloney. You can post it 1000 times. It still won't become true.

[katkat]

181. different tune

Then you obviously know nothing about Howard Dean. Look up integrity in the dictionary.

[Hissyspit]

51. He has supported this process all along the way.

Watch the video and read the transcript. Your analysis of his motivations is wrong.

[No Elephants]

74. Baloney. Dean was ready to--and did-- support practically anything that had

any potential upside for the people of this country, from a public option, even though it was weak as water, to lowering the age for eligibility for Medicare to 55, even though the buy in was not chickenfeed. And he's STILL saying he will vote for Obama.

Not making Dean Secretary of Health and Human Services was indeed a mistake on the part of Obama, but Dean never retaliated.

[Justitia]

142. Sure, that was why he was cheerleading this bill until just this week. Stupid comment.

I see the White House blastfax is to try to discredit Dean w/"sour grapes" meme.

:puke:

[axollot]

30. Watch the video Dean said he would still vigorously support Obama

he was making a point at the time that while he hates this bill he would *still* support Obama, The WH and Dems in up coming elections. He also said he was happy with other progress Obama has made on other issue, including environment.

Cheers
Sandy
just trying to set the record straight - the video is posted already on DU too (Morning Joe)

[LynneSin]

136. There are DUers that just hear what they want to hear and ignore the rest

I've neither seen anything nor heard anything that says Dean would not support Obama as the general election democratic candidate.

[tomm2thumbs]

31. Obama wants to put a christmas present under the tree to himself, no matter what is in the box

this is all about Obama - health care REFORM be damned

[eilen]

117. An Oprah moment. nt

[Aviation Pro]

46. Good, Dr. Dean, you can join the rest of the fringe elements....

....of both sides.

Again, if you want someone like Two Shoes McMoron Fuckstick in 2013 keep doing what you're doing.

Go scream at the moon you fucking moron.

[Hissyspit]

50. Read the transcript.

You're making yourself look silly.

[pundaint]

76. What would be the effective difference?

I think the selling out of America is more noticeable if done in a forthright manner. I would rather have Palin in there, because it would get more people sufficiently concerned that they would pay attention. More Americans paying attention would be a better thing all by itself, than the sum of Obama's programs.

Get a new bogeyman, this one isn't scary enough,

[No Elephants]

103. Please see Reply ##s 61 and 96. BTW, people who want what Obama campaigned on--

a strong public option--are not fringe elements of any side. They are simply Democrats.

For your information and that of Rahm, the fringe of the left is Communist, not those who want Democrats to (a) act like Democrats; and (b) keep their own campaign promises, instead of supporting any POS Lieberman feels like handing them.

Edited for spelling.

[freddie mertz]

48. I hope Howard has good security arrangements.

There really is no reason to support Obama anymore.

[Doctor_J]

62. No one is in danger from bashing the president

or waving an assault rifle, for that matter. The only danger is in waving a sign at a Palin rally.

[freddie mertz]

154. I dunno. Some of the vitriol has been pretty thick.

I hope you are right, of course.

[TwilightGardener]

95. This is getting out of hand. Obama isn't going to put out a "hit" on HD.

[freddie mertz]

155. I was thinking more about some random nutcase.

[MadBadger]

52. Not exactly sure why he is even talking about what he will or wont do in three years.

[pundaint]

79. Because he was asked a specific question.

His position everywhere else is that this is about the legislation sucking, and not about the personalities involved. The administration provided the only ad hominem attacks.

[No Elephants]

104. Maybe he is trying to impact what is--or isn't--happening now?

[Don Draper]

53. President Obama, you had better take note of this

If you continue down the same road,and keep pissing off your base, you are going to run into big trouble.

[AllyCat]

58. I know I'm done. I won't even support him "less than vigorously"

He has sold us out on all the issues that are important to me.

[Name removed]

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[krabigirl]

89. Reeally? You see NO difference between Obama and someone like Palin?

This country truly is dumbed down.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

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[AllyCat]

149. I agree wit you on that. MOST of the Dems are corporatists There are many good ones though

Like Alan Grayson, Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders (oops! NOT a dem!), Feingold. The DLCers don't need my help, my vote, or my money. Nor do they need yours.

[No Elephants]

108. Why doesn't your cousin just shoot himself in the foot?

How about doing something constructive, like primarying people, or working to get the DNC's policy of supporting incumbents changed? And, if all else fails, writing in someone who represents his views?

Voting Republican will do nothing but tell folks he'd like to see the country move further right. If he chooses to use his vote, bought with the blood of many, to do the opposite of what he claims he wants, I'd gladly shoot him in the foot, even if I have to take shooting lessons (and I would have to).

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[No Elephants]

112. Your "cousin" is clearly a moron, so I don't much care what he appreciates. No,

scratch that. I do care, in a way. I'd be very concerned if your "cousin" appreciated me.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

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[No Elephants]

118. Homophobic? LOL. Your "cousin" is not the only moron in your family.

[newspeak]

110. I WILL NEVER EVER VOTE FOR A REPUKE

You're not talking about your decent RHINO here. Today's repuke party is nothing but crazy theocratic fascists! This isn't Eisenhower's party anymore, nor is it Lincoln's. It may be Sen. McCarthy's. The DLCer's will let you get in the pot and then put the fire on slow, but the repukes will just shove you in while it's boiling.

I will go third party but I will never ever vote for a repuke!

[No Elephants]

114. Of course not. Only a repuke or a repuke's "cousin" would vote for a repuke.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

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[AllyCat]

147. Don't know that I will go that far. I don't think I'd ever vote for a Repuke

Vote Green for POTUS to preserve my conscience and vote for my Democratic rep and for Feingold. Kohl never has a reasonable challenger and doesn't need my vote anyway.

[fascisthunter]

59. WOW! Good!

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

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[BrklynLiberal]

65. Rahm Emanuel's blood pressure must be thru the ceiling...

I think Dr. Dean is in good company..Dennis Kucinich and Thom Hartmann...
Maybe the populist movement CAN get some steam going and elect some candidates
that actually DO put the needs of the American people above their own party.

[No Elephants]

119. No problem. We pay for Rahm's health insurance, even though he's rich.

[Illuminated]

131. Not to mention all of Congress,

they excluded themselves from any public option, when we had a hope of getting one. I thought that was a terrible move at the time. LEAD, DAMN YOU.

[Justitia]

144. ain't that the sad truth? -eom

[BrklynLiberal]

221. Ironic, isn't it?. They have a "public option".

:mad:

[No Elephants]

233. Technically, no. We simply pay for their private insurance, no matter how costly it gets.

They get a choice of several private plan, and the endlessly rich taxpayers simply pay for the plan of their choice, no matter how sky high the premiums go. Sweet, huh? For them, of course. The taxpayer is screwn every which way.

[Riverman]

71. Dean is not going to "ultimately fuel the sentiments among the president's core constituency."

Dr. Dean is simply giving public voice to the fire that has been burning among the majority of Americans who according to reputable polls suupport a strong public option. Now we see Obama's polls under 50%. So, who is "fueling" this discontent?

[David Zephyr]

83. Bravo to Dr. Dean!

He's telling the truth that they don't want told.

This bill must not go forward.

[sybylla]

96. Unfortunately, I'm with Howard.

There will be no way to fix our economy if we don't have meaningful health care reform. This gift to the insurance industry will only force the middle class into poverty and bankruptcy - either paying for insurance or paying for their own health care.

It's that simple. Healthcare is the starting point. Not the ending point. Corporations are leaving our shores because they cannot afford health insurance. Small businesses like mine are closing their doors because they cannot afford to insure themselves. Mandating the purchase without cost controls only worsens the situation.

What does it matter if an insurance company cannot deny me coverage or deny a claim, when they can charge an ungodly amount for the insurance?

If Obama can't get behind real reform, if the Senate can't manage it, then I'm afraid the "party" is over.

[TomCADem]

213. Howard Has Clarified That He Vigorously Supports The President...

...on the Ed Show. Are you still with Howard?

[davidwparker]

98. I know now, at the end of his first term, that he does not have

what it takes to be an executive.

I will, in 2012, vote for a 3rd party candidate or write in Howard Dean.

For all the suckered left, we need to pick someone to be the recepient of a protest vote. I recommend Dean.

By this, you are declaring that 1) you are on the left; 2) you've stopped buying Obama's act; 3) you're ticked over health care (Dean being a doctor); and 4) you can't bring yourself to vote for the (R) for even more effect.

If Dean gets 2.5 million votes in 2012, then Obama knows 2.5 million of his base walked out on his sellout self.

[No Elephants]

126. Much smarter than those who say they will stay away from the polls.

But, my preference would be to at least try to primary those whose re-election seems to be their first concern, rather than the good of Americans and America. They seem to deign to consider the latter only if so doing has, in their estimation, no chance whatever of impacting their re-election adversely.

It's even beyond that. It's the lucrative, non-demanding corporate job after their "public" service ends that they refuse to impact adversely. (Daschle is a good example, but only one of many on both sides of the aisle.)

[change_notfinetuning]

100. No, Axelrod! What is tragic is the killing in Iraq and Afghanistan, not the

health bill. The White House buried health care REFORM a long time ago.

[No Elephants]

122. 45,000 Americans die each year from lack of health care. THAT is tragic. Not to mention

the bankruptcies due to medical expenses, even for those who are/were insured. In some cases, BOTH members of a couple with grown children had insurance via employers and STILL were bankrupted by medical expenses. Add to the much to numerous deaths and bankruptcies the devastating effect on the American economy and you have disaster from all perspectives. And then, there's our wars, too.

Change you can bereave in.

[Meshuga]

106. I will obviously vote for Obama in 2012

But he will get no volunteering and not a dime from me. In other words, I totally agree with Dean.

[eilen]

124. I'll only vote for the anti-war candidate

and that is going to be my purity test. Clearly, the man in office now does not give two shits about people or he wouldn't continue killing them. How great is it for the environment to continue to blow shit up, and send lives, money and resources to Afghanistan and Iraq? So for me he fails not only on healthcare, but also on the environment and the peace prize is a fucking joke, essentially meaningless.

The environment-- he nor any world leader isn't about to upset the ptb to enact any real environmental reform.

I think we all need to get our asses in gear and decide how we are going to live in an ecologically ruined economy. This spring and summer, go visit our national parks while they are still open to the public; take lots of pictures and journal how it feels to be able to swim in a lake, fish in it and even grill a fish and eat it; walk barefoot in grass, sleep under the stars, climb a tree, and climb a mountain so you can tell your grandchildren what the world was like before we fucking wrecked it to keep the lights on, the factories chugging and the war machine going.

I was so puffed up on hope, boy I guess the cipher bit was correct. I feel really stupid about it now. We imposed our best dreams on him. How dare we.

[Illuminated]

129. Well that is obciously no Pres Obama,

so who are you going to vote for?

[eilen]

137. I don't know, depends on who else is running.

The known-- past anti-war candidates are Dennis Kucinich, Ralph Nader and Ron Paul. If a better one comes up, we'll see in 2010 and 2012. Hopefully the Green Party or some other 3rd or 4th Party will emerge with a worthy candidate. I'll keep my ear to the ground. I want a quality candidate, one that has a clear definable vision for the future that is not defined by wealthy stockholders. (Okay, remember that Wendy's commercial with the little old lady saying "Where's the Beef?" -- that is running through my head now in a loop.-- thought I'd share).

[No Elephants]

132. Yes, and he tried so hard to avoid our superimposing our dreams on him, too.

He was so clear about who and what he was. Like campaigning against single payer, but for a meaningful public option--with no mandate. Like using "Change" as his byword. Like campaigning against the past, including the Clinton part of the past. Like promising to end DADT. And so on. He could not have been clearer. It's all our fault. Damn us all to hell anyway.

[eilen]

138. Like rolling in catnip and

demurring that he really doesn't like cats, as they crawl all over him.

disingenuous? Naw.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

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[igfoth]

111. Howard Dean is Right!

Obama has lost my support and Vote.

I will fully support any progressive to run against Obama in 2012 both with my time and money. If HC Reform does not have a Public Option or expanded Medicare it will be a huge defeat for Obama and will make him a lame duck for the rest of his term.

Why do I say lame duck...Obama had 40 no votes and as we are seeing unfold now, give enough money to a few Blue Dogs and they will either strip out all the good stuff in legislation or they will vote against it.

I have only given money directly to 2 candidates in my life time.

Dennis Kucinich
Howard Dean

And I will gladly support them again.

NObama in 2012, America needs a real leader not Pub Light!

[louis-t]

115. Sad when a Dem has to go on a repug show to diss

a Dem.

[No Elephants]

135. Not as sad as Dems abandoning the principles of the Democratic Party.

But Dr. Dean did not have to go on a repug show, nor did he go on a repug show to diss a Dem. He chose to go on a repug show as part of his continuing effort to try to get at least half way decent health reform passed. While there, he got asked a direct question and gave an honest answer, namely that he will vote for Obama, even though Obama is urging passage of a bill Dr. Dean considers too bad to pass.

[Goldstein1984]

120. Both parties are under the control of corporations

There's no difference between them in that regard.

Blind party loyalty is bad, but voting Republican would be far worse.

Obama has been a major disappointment, but if he makes it through the primaries he's going to have my vote. As someone wrote in an OP yesterday, "I've seen the alternative."

Until then, we should keep pressure on him.

Right now, as we sit at our computers, our elected representatives are sitting down over drinks with their corporate masters, or maybe they're just sitting in their offices taking instructions over the phone. They have junior staff members taking care of calls, letters and emails from constituents. THAT is the problem.

[Strathos]

125. I agree with Dean

I'm completely heartbroken over the lack of leadership Obama has shown. I supported him. I fought for him. I wanted him to be what he claimed he was, but I've been let down again by a democrat who'd rather appeal to the center and the republicans more than he would to the people who got him elected.

I'll never vote for a republican, but I sure as hell will not vote for a democrat who can't keep their promises.

[get the red out]

130. How nice of him to support the Republican Party

I am sure he will receive thanks from Rush Limbaugh, Fox will probably offer him his own show since he is doing their job for them.

[No Elephants]

133. Saying he will vote for Obama, even though he is not happy with this bill supports the Republican

Party?


Riiiight.

[get the red out]

139. That loud-mouthed attention seeker is supporting them with every word.

Right back at you, because he and everyone bitching and hating on the President are supporting the right.

[No Elephants]

235. He is not hating on the President. He is saying he will vote for the President, but this bill is

bad. It's really too bad that you equate with that with hating on the President, but that's not Dr. Dean's fault. Try watching the video or reading the transcript.

[tomm2thumbs]

156. it is often smart to not pick up a greasy rope that others lay down - they want tug of war

I ignore them.

And you are right. Supporting the very bill not merely a week ago, Dean has to take a stand when the one small element of real reform is ripped out. He has done anything but support the GOP, so arguments like that are simply put - misguided.

[Justitia]

145. yeah, because it is Dean writing & passing this shitty bill, not insurance lobbyists

nice dodge of responsibility

[LynneSin]

134. I'd like to point out 4 obvious things that Howard Dean has said:

#1 - Dean has not suggested voting for a 3rd party candidate or republican
#2 - Dean has not suggested staying home on election day and not voting
#3 - Dean has not ruled out supporting a democratic primary candidate
#4 - Dean has implied that he would ultimately vote for Obama in the general election. Vigorously support just means he's not going out there and actively campaign for the guy

I point these out because I still see DUers suggested they would not support Obama mainly by voting 3rd party or not voting on election day. Two things which goes totally against what DU supports.

[shadowknows69]

169. I'll vote on election day. Just might not bother with the Presidential race.

That doesn't break any DU rules does it? Not to mention my ballot is secret so unless I actively campaign against Obama if he is the nominee I can support whoever I want for a Primary candidate. If I vote third party, I'm afraid I'll just have to keep it to myself, because I like it here.

[shadowknows69]

170. And I like point #3. I hope someone asks him about it.

I'd love to have Dr. Dean go on record that he WILL support a more progressive Primary candidate. Then we can recuit him.

[LynneSin]

215. Although I'm still strongly on team Obama I respect the fact that other Dems may run

I just get highly annoyed when DUers suggest voting 3rd party or not voting - both which will help republicans get elected. The only 3rd party candidate I have ever supported was Bernie Sanders simply because the DNC/DSCC recognize him as a member of their team even if he is not a member of the party - they won't run anyone against him.

[and-justice-for-all]

141. Good for Dean for STANDING UP FOR US! nt

[mckara]

148. I Agree with Dr. Dean...

No more $2,000 donations for these clowns unless they develop some leadership skills!

[varelse]

151. Neither will I

I hope Dean is right about the possibility of saving the Health Insurance Reform bill.

[DFW]

159. I split with Howard here

The Republicans will nominate another incompetent ideologue who would be a complete disaster, and who would nominate fascists to the Supreme Court. Whatever else Obama has done or not done, no Republican president is worth that risk--NONE.

So I will support the Democratic nominee, whatever his or her name may be, and hope that I will not suffer disappointment. But Disappointment is preferable to disgust, and those who are disgusted now (and I understand that they are more than a few) would kick themselves for their "no difference" stance as they did after 2000. This is just my personal take, and I know the "no difference" sentiment is growing at a geometric pace right now, but there IS a difference--a drastic difference. Just think "acting president Palin" after some McCain medical event.

Make no mistake, I'll not shut up about what I want from my president and members of Congress, and I'll speak up when they disappoint me, but I will fight tooth and nail to prevent Republicans from ever gaining the White House or a Congressional majority ever again.

[mystieus]

161. Dean is no better than Joe Lieberman.. He got his little feelings hurt "so lets destroy DC base."

What a child! To see democrats go after each other like this is stupid! when the Republicans with Joe Lieberman are the will reason the bill isn't "prefect" You cant get shit down without votes you dumbass from both sides. But lets blame democrats for trying.

[No Elephants]

232. Your facts or your math is wrong. Democrats have all they need to pass a bill, if they

stop acting and voting like Republicans: an overwhelming Democratic majority in the House, 60 senators in the Senate's Democratic Caucus, and a Democrat in the Oval Office. Plus, a majority of the public wants a public option.

Democrats don't need a single Republican vote, not a one. So, if Democrats cannot pass something decent with all that, it IS their fault.

And that's not counting their ability to use the nuclear option, which they can do with fifty votes plus Biden. It is also not counting their ability to use reconciliation, which they can also do with fifty votes plus Biden. It's also not counting using muscle on the Purple Snakes, like no support for the 2010 campaign from the DNC treasury or the Democratic vote getters and no more powerful chairs or committee memberships.

Dummya got plenty of what he wanted done from 2006 to 2008, and all the Republicans--the ones who honestly put (r)s after their names, that is-- had then was the Oval Office. No House majority, no Senate super majority and only a very small amount of public support.

[shadowknows69]

163. Dean for President in 2012. Let's get it started now people.

[onenote]

165. I'm curious -- what do think the likelihood of success would be for a Democrat

runinng for President who will get next to zero of the African-American vote?

[shadowknows69]

166. Why would you assume that? African Americans are incapable of voting against their own?

Way to insult the intelligence of an entire ethnic group.

[onenote]

184. Do you have any (even just a little) basis for concluding that African Americans

are disillusioned with Barack Obama? That a group that turned out in historic numbers to support the first African American to be nominated for president by one of the two major national parties are going to support with the same enthusiasm a rare challenge to a sitting president by members of his own party, particularly one started (if you had your way) before he's served even one year in office?

Nice strawman, but if you don't want to have a discussion that's grounded in poiltial reality that's fine. I won't bother.

[shadowknows69]

189. You're the one making generalizations about a whole group dude.

How is that based in any political reality?

[onenote]

216. observations of the world as it is. Sorry if that's not the world you live in

[shadowknows69]

240. Whatever. No substance and a dash of asshole gets you on the Iggy list.

[onenote]

248. boo hoo.

[shadowknows69]

249. And ignored answers again to someone who can't read them.

That's a remarkable waste of energy you know.

[FarLeftFist]

164. I wonder if our next republican president and congress will....

Try and overturn Roe v Wade first or reinstate Bush tax cuts for the very wealthy first. Guess we'll just have to see, since everybody here will help make it a reality in 2012. I'm taking this selfish position now so when it happens we can all search the archives and I could use this as ammo against the complainer's that helped put them in power.

[jtylerpittman]

167. good for dean

maybe this will give obama the kick he needs to grow a spine

[HopeforChange]

168. As a National Delegate for Obama ... I am proud of Howard Dean today

I am proud that Howard Dean is standing up for the American People.
What kind of reform makes it a federal crime to not buy health insurance but does not offer insurance to the people who are being made into criminals if they do not buy it from the fat cat insurance companies?

Don't they realize that millions of Americans are unemployed?

Something has gone very wrong with our country and the protection of civil rights.
Our country is allowing millions of innocent citizens to be harmed by big money interests.
Out legal system is in shambles and justice is gone from out courts.
They are taking old people away from their families and fleecing them of their money.
I am fighting right now for reform to stop the abuse of elderly and dependant adults in guardianships.
My petition has over 750 signatures at www.stopelderabuse.net
We need a country that will fight for the poor and the weak and not cave into the special interests that are slowly destroying America.

I was a delegate to the DNC convention and had such high hopes.
I still believe in Obama but I think he and Axelrod are more interested in passing healthcare reform period instead of getting it right.

I am proud of Howard Dean and Oberman for taking a public stand.
I hope Howard Dean will consider running for president one day.

[slinkerwink]

171. I'm with Dean on this

[katkat]

174. Howard has always spoken the truth

I'm glad to see a Democratic party leader speaking the truth, and not just us mad as hell people down here in the trenches who worked our butts off for "hope and change."

This gives me hope for the Democratic party, although I still won't be voting for any DLC types, just for progressives/liberals. And when it comes to Obama in 2012, unless things change drastically, I'll vote any reasonable progressive third party or write in someone. Not voting doesn't send that type of message. They need to know where their base has gone, not just think people are too lazy to vote.

[Odin2005]

183. I agree with Dean. This bill has become fucked up beyond redemption.

[nvme]

185. Howard Dean is right

No single voice in the progressive caucus is making waves over their opposition to this ever evolving monstrosity of a bill. The only persons gaining concessions are the centrists. The progressives are conspicuously silent. Sanders is well meaning and somewhat effective but he is not a democrat. If there are senators who are opposed to this elimination of the public option and the dismissal of the medicare lower age limit, then they need to raise the roof.

The Unions and Howard Dean are the only ones who are lending any weight to this discourse. The Whitehorse's attempt to minimize Dean is a tragic mistake. Dean has been the most vocal cheerleader for Health-care Reform to date. The unions are really peeved that they are being taxed on their plans. It their backs and their $$$ that was a piece in electing this president. The progressive elements in our party are what helped to fund this debate.

Deans sentiment is shared by many. one needs only to look at the posts(several hundred threads long) to gage our sentiment. These threads haven't lit up this much since Obama/Hillary were neck and neck. People are focused on this one. Horse trading the meat and potatoes of this legislation does not make the legislation worthwhile.

In the case of the something is better than nothing crowd, I disagree. The perception will be that the Dem's cant pass meaningful legislation. We therefore lack the fortitude and the drive to maintain party discipline. Without this discipline the independents see this as a weakness making us unfit to lead. Isn't it obvious that the country is begging for this type of leadership? Bush however wrong (criminally so) lead the country down a dark path. Obama's reactionary low key stances are not exuding the boldness the times require. The American public does not applaud or Revere chess-masters. The do go nuts over the WWF. Subtly is great behind the scenes, but it will not sway the public or win support. The leadership is lacking substance.Nature abhors a void; it will quickly be filled.
By whom will be determined by how we act.

[UrbScotty]

186. President Palin thanks you, Gov. Dean.

[shadowknows69]

191. You know what? If we get Palin as a President we fucking deserve it.

Because Obama hasn't proven himself to be a strong leader on nearly anything.

[MissDeeds]

197. I agree

All of this lamenting that if Obama loses it's our fault is bogus. We didn't leave him - he drove us away. He is losing independents, young voters, and most notably, a lot of his base. Where will his votes come from in 2012? If the very people that were instrumental in getting him elected are turning away in disgust, it's his fault.

[Hissyspit]

198. UPDATE: Dean just said on Ed that he would support Obama "vigorously."

Apparently, in his appearance on Morning Joe, he was going to say something else after "not..." and then said "vigorously,"

Completely confusing. Even Joe and Mika thought he said "not vigorously."

[julian09]

206. Obama didn't fight for public option

or anything else, the more they gutted it the more he liked it. Actually the blue dogs hold the sway in this case, president Dean or president anybody couldn't get a decent bill; until we get 50% plus one vote in the senate. The public needs to know who voted how in congress, and hold them accountable. An independent president would not have enough support in the congress.

[varelse]

214. that sounds more like Dean, actually (nt)

[No Elephants]

236. I would not trust Joe or Mika to tell the truth about ANYthing, including what they really thought.

[Historic NY]

211. Either this is some Obama game plan or he seriously misjudged his base completely..

right now he is costing Democrats and once he loses the independant support he will be finished.

[lovuian]

218. Obama is a Sellout Hello this was the last straw for Dean

and the rest of us

[SemiCharmedQuark]

251. Except that Dean said he was misquoted. But whatever.

[Cha]

220. Now he's either changed his mind or he didn't say it in the first place..

TomCADem (1000+ posts) Thu Dec-17-09 09:50 PM
Original message

"Ed Show - Howard Dean Says That He Will Support and Campaign Vigorously for the President in 2012
I was wondering why there now some posts now attacking Howard Dean for the failure of HCR, and now I know why. I stand with Dean until he actually supports Democrats, rather than attacks them?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x69805

[New Dawn]

223. Yes, the Fascist "Individual Mandate" must be eliminated.

[ProSense]

224. How really sad for all the people

who thought Dean would say this.

:rofl:

[FrenchieCat]

234. What is sadder is that they believed that he said this.....

and followed the leader, who wasn't really leading in the direction that they so wished.

[rhett o rick]

243. Yes I agree, sad. They are seeking a leader and dont feel the president is doing the job.

Even if it isnt practical to expect CorpCongress to give us a decent bill, the president should at least act like he wants a strong bill. He seems ok with the garbage the Senate has come up with.

[robo50]

246. Exactly! That is where we can place blame on Obama, he's

acting as if giving MORE control and MORE money to private insurance companies actually solves part of the problem!!!!!!!!!

This bill is a big sell-out to insurance and pharma. There is no "there" there in this bill that actually helps ANYONE other than insurance an pharma industries. No one else is better off.

[Hissyspit]

247. No, what is sad is that it is even slightly plausible that he might have said it.

And you are conveniently ignoring everything else he DID say, which is why I wrote the transcript.

Dean did say "not vigorously," it's just not what he meant to say. No one, including you, came in upthread and and said "he did not say 'not vigorously.'"

[Zorra]

250. “Given the choice between a Republican and someone who

acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time”
- Harry S Truman

Obama is going to cause the Democratic Party to seriously implode if he doesn't start acting like a Democrat.

[Renew Deal]

252. This is great. Lieberman and Baucus screw around and Obama gets hurt.

Brilliant!