Venezuela's Chavez sees US threat in Dutch islands

[Zorro]

Source: AP

Hugo Chavez accused the Netherlands on Thursday of allowing the United States to use Dutch islands off Venezuela's Caribbean coast to prepare a possible military attack against his country.

The Venezuelan leader said the U.S. military, to prepare for a possible offensive, has sent intelligence agents, war ships and spy planes to Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, which are self-governing Dutch islands.

"They are three islands in Venezuela's territorial waters, but they are still under an imperial regime: the Netherlands," Chavez said during a speech at a climate change conference in Denmark. "Europe should know that the North American empire is filling these islands with weapons, assassins, American intelligence units, and spy planes and war ships."

In Washington, State Department spokesman Ian Kelly denied that U.S. military personnel in the Caribbean are planning to attack Venezuela.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091218/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_us_netherlands_6

[Ozymanithrax]

1. While in the Navy I visit Curacao.

Beautiful Place.

But the U.S. Military is busy elsewhere and does not have the forces to Invade Venezuela. Chavez is a bit of a kook at times.

[zeemike]

4. But they always have private contractors that will work for cash

and it is not like it is coming out of their pockets or something....we will pay the bill.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

5. Do you honestly think private contractors are gearing up to invade Venezuela?

[Ozymanithrax]

9. Venezuela has about 130,000 active duty military...

In order to destroy their military, the U.S. would need to deploy, at minimum, about half a million troops. An invasion would require use of tanks and other heavy cavalry units as well as considerable investment of air power. Mercenaries are not equipped to invade and capture a country. Typically they are used for security details, black ops, and low intensity warfare You would need regular military to do that. Also, that half a million would be inadequate to actually hold a country of 28 million hostile people. It would probably take about three times that many soldiers.

And, short of Venezuela attacking the United States, it could not be done without a authorization to use force or a declaration of war. Obama would have to sell an invasion of Venezula to the people of the United States, somthing he hasn't done.

Chavez does this to keep his people frightened. Fear is the tool of tyrants. I would say he is safe from the U.S. under President Obama.

Curacao and the other Dutch islands are liberty ports of the U.S. Navy and Marines serving in the Caribbean.

[EFerrari]

11. Safe under Obama? The same Obama that sleepwalked through

the coup in Honduras? The same Obama that sent Hillary to tank the climate summit?

Um, I think not.

[Ozymanithrax]

14. Please show me Obama's policy to instigate a war with Venezula...

Yes, under Obama he is safe, for many reasons.

As long as we have the bulk of the U.S. Military tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan, we could not take on a war in Venezuela. Also, the American people must be prepared for such a ridiculous adventure. War rhetoric, such as that used by Bush, would form a constant drum beat. He would need to move troops from the U.S., Iraq, and Afghanistan to perform such an adventure. It would take a huge expenditure in men, money, and ships that would be noticeable. A sudden request for about 400 billion to invade another country would have been remarked upon, somewhere. A flotilla of a hundred warships including invasion forces of half a million on and around the island of Curacao would be noticeable.

I know the distrust of Obama in places at DU is deeper and wider than ignorance at a Tea party convention, but there are things that are simply not feasible.

Chavez is a tinpot dictator who needs to keep his people in fear of the evil U.S.A. so they can remain amenable to his government. We will continue to here such sill comments, probably until he is a very old man.

[Judi Lynn]

15. See post #13. n/t

[Ozymanithrax]

17. I read it. It is a poor piece of fantasy and could have been written by Chavez.

Thanks.

[dipsydoodle]

105. Was deleted ?

What did it say more or less ?

:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

106. Never would have believed it would be removed, considering the totally vicious crap

we see from .... oh, well.

Can't remember now, it's been too long, have read too many more posts since then, but it was a refreshingly direct response showing outright disgust and contempt for trolling.

Maybe someone else will remember more clearly. Sorry I couldn't help more, dipsydoodle.

[EFerrari]

18. You are the silly one. All but America's lapdogs

in Latin America are objecting to the build up in Colombia.

Maybe your condescension satisfies you in some way and that's fine. But it's not reality based. And Chavez (and Lula and Correa and Moralez and Ortega) are right. :hi:

[Ozymanithrax]

20. Show me a half a million American soldiers station in South America?

I've looked for the evidence and can't find it. It isn't possible to invade a country on the sneak.

Chavez is a dictator who keeps his people terrified by making the U.S.A. the bully.

An invasion of any South American Country by the U.S. at this time is a complete fantasy.

[EFerrari]

21. So, Lula and Correa and Morales are all in on this conspiracy

to keep Venezuela afraid of the United States?

Obama's Choice: New Documents Show United States Seeks Colombian Bases for Training and Operations
Written by John Lindsay-Poland
Sunday, 16 August 2009
Source: Americas Program

President Obama was forced to address the growing clamor in South America in opposition to plans for U.S. military use of at least seven bases in Colombia. The base agreement proposes to carry out regional operations with a wide and ambiguous mandate and has raised concerns among governments throughout the region.

"We have no intent in establishing a U.S. military base in Colombia," Obama said on Friday.

But the South American presidents who met in Quito on Monday weren't buying it. They agreed to meet again later this month to discuss the bases in Colombia. Despite a seven-nation tour by Colombian President Álvaro Uribe the previous week, only Peru openly supports the proposal. President Lula da Silva of Brazil—the continent's superpower—called for President Obama to attend the meeting, and several Latin American presidents and Colombian leaders echoed the call. Obama needs to "explain in depth U.S. policy for the region," Lula said.

His declaration came following an explosive exposé of base negotiations between the Pentagon and the State Department, and the Colombian government in the Colombian weekly Cambio. The report generated broad discontent in Colombia and the region. The article noted that the plan would include "filling the gaps left by the eventual cutting of aid in Plan Colombia," according to sources cited in Washington and Bogotá.


http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/2053/68/

Whatever. After the way he and Hillary handled Honduras, no one south of San Diego will ever trust either of them again.


/ack, bad typing

[Ozymanithrax]

24. I don't think they should trust us, for many reasons going back to Monroe

I am not saying these people should trust us or that our motives are pure. We are an empire.

I only point out that not even the U.S.A. can invade and conquer another country in secret.

Backing a military coup is different. We would put up the cash, and supply a few aircraft and perhaps some special forces units, and a few mercenaries. Most of the heavy lifting would be made by those we set up to take over. And, ideally, no one would see the U.S. operate. It has been done several times in the last century.

[EFerrari]

26. Agreed. It has been done by other means many times. n/t

[Goldstein1984]

31. And speaking of Venezuela, we tried it there in 2002

The corporation I worked for at the time, Williams Energy, was one of the corporate interests the U.S. government was protecting. It was quite the scandal inside the company when the coup fell apart and Chavez regained control.

Hugo Chavez has good reason to fear the United States.

[Judi Lynn]

22. Just found this one: "Curaçao politician wants US base to close down"

From Dutch news agency ANP:

Curaçao politician wants US base to close down

14 November ‘09, 21:42

WILLEMSTAD - The contract with the United States military ‘location’ on Curaçao which finishes in 2010, should not be prolonged. This Saturday, Curaçao politician Helmin Wiels of the opposition party Pueblo Soberano said that.

‘In this way, we will prevent that Curaçao will be dragged along into a future war between Venezuela and the USA.’ Wiels is convinced that the recently rising tensions between Colombia and Venezuela, will finally lead to a war between the USA and President Hugo Chávez’ country.

The USA have several military bases in Colombia and recently, contracts have been concluded for more bases there. According to Wiels, the USA are aiming consciously at a war against Venezuela. He thinks that this may have ‘disastrous’ consequences for Curaçao. ‘As long as we will allow the USA to have a military base of their own on Curaçao, we will be seen as traitors in Venezuelan eyes. We are a small country, and it is better for us to gave good relationships with all sides.’

The US American Forward Operation Location (FOL) is on Curaçao ever since 2000. From there, the USA flies over South America as part of the “war on drugs”. The ten year contract for the locations on Curaçao and Aruba will finish next year. If one of the two parties will not object, it will be prolonged automatically. Wiels calls on the government of the Netherlands Antilles to be active and to close down the FOL.

http://dearkitty.blogsome.com/2009/11/15/get-us-military-base-out-of-curacao/

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

58. Interesting how, over and over again, you portray one side on this issue as "lapdogs"

while the other side are what? Free thinking individuals acting in what they perceive the be the best interests of their countries?

[Goldstein1984]

30. Your reference to using fear to control people reminds me

of a guide who showed our small group the Mayan ruins at Coba, Yucatan, Mexico in 2004.

He showed us a petroglyph depicting a Mayan priest wearing feathered robes, carrying s scepter, and walking on the backs of kneeling peasants. He explained:

"Look at the Mayan Holy Man. See his feathered robes; see his stick showing his authority; look how he walks on the backs of his people, telling them, 'I will protect you from our enemies. I will protect you from disease. I will protect you from the forces of nature. I will protect you from yourselves. All you have to do is give up your freedom.' Living in the Mayan Empire was much like living in the United States today!"

Hugo Chavez is not the only leader who uses fear to manipulate his people. George Bush did it. Obama did it on December 1st to justify his decision to send more troops to Afghanistan. It's sort of a tool of the trade.

[EFerrari]

32. False premise. The military build up in Latin America under

the Obama administration is raising concerns all over the region. It is not some made up lure that President Chavez is using on the Venezuelan people.

[Goldstein1984]

34. I think we agree

I was only using the anecdote to point out that Chavez, who I sympathize with, is not the only one guilty of using fear to control people. Frankly, I'm not sure I believe he is "using" fear as much as sharing his fear.

Given our history in Latin America (see my other post under this OP), I think Chavez has every right to be concerned. I believe, based on personal experience from the 1970s, as well as our publicized antics in the region since I was there, that our presence in Central and South America is much larger than advertised. We have acquired the necessary bases in Columbia to project power across the entire South American continent. We've been using the bogus War on Drugs for decades as cover to fight leftist rebels and protect our preferred rulers.

Chavez is a little goofy sometimes, but I don't think he's crazy or stupid. His people love his style. I've been a fan since his comments about smelling sulfur after George Bush left the podium at the U.N.

[EFerrari]

43. If you enjoyed that, he gave a great speech at Copenhagen. Text is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x28130

[Goldstein1984]

44. Thanks. I had only seen sound bites from Chavez's speech

I agreed with what I read.

Chavez can be a goof, but I believe he's the People's goof. I think a lot of his antics are intentional, designed to show a lack of respect for the institutions that don't serve the people. I enjoy irreverence.

That's why he's demonized by those who prefer to serve a few elites.

I'm beginning to believe that the unrest we are seeing here in this country, and that I believe is going to continue growing, is really just a part of a global struggle of the have-nots against the haves.

[EFerrari]

56. I confess I like his goofiness. He reminds me of my favorite uncle

who goofed all the time. They even look a little alike, lol. What looks like bombast to North Americans doesn't bother me a bit, I guess. He does say too much a lot of the time but the one thing you can always count on with Chavez is that he'll be the first guy in the room to say what everybody is thinking.

[Goldstein1984]

70. Williams Energy, the company I worked for at the time

was one of the businesses behind the 2002 coup against Chavez.

Chavez has good reason for what he does.

He says too much, and he tends to repeat himself, but I enjoy the show.

My wife and I are considering a low-cost, live-out-of-our-backpack visit to Venezuela. I'm brushing up on my Spanish.

G1984

[Cha]

97. Thanks Ozy.

[peacetalksforall]

19. Ask Lanny Davis - seems he's in with ourSec of State? He's in on the health wealth, he was in on

Honduras. He should know. He will be out there defending it as a partner in a legal firm that is all about corporate progress. With all due disrespect.

And I think he calls himself a Democrat.

Call him a scheming corporacrat.

Yes, he should know.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ozymanithrax]

16. I found reading the lord of rings much more my taste in fantasy.

Please show documentation of an invasion force of American troops stationed anywehre in South America.

If not, then I suggest you take your own adivce.

[Wilms]

29. Invasion level forces deployment would be among the last things done preparing a war. No?

[Ozymanithrax]

41. The first thing done to prepare an invasion is to get the people behind the Invasion.

I am pretty sure that Obama is smart enough to know that selling a war against Chavez would be very dificult. Even Bush tried to use a coup rather than invasion. The occassional rumor that Islamic terrorists were working with South AMerican leftist were never taken seriously by anyone who did not join the teabagger movement after obama's election.

If Chavez is in danger from us, he should look to the other power groups in his country and decide which of them is most likely to want his head on a plate. The U.S. does not have to request an authorization to use force to instigate a coup. It does not have to sell a costly war against a nation whose only problem is that we don't like it's leaders style. A coup appears to fall under the President's power to conduct foreign diplomacy, even though backing a coup can be considered an act of war.

Nothing has been done to convince Americans we need to invade. There has been no requrest for war or an authorizatoin to use force against this country. A full scale invasion is not what Chavez has to worry about.

[Wilms]

53. Very nice. Now, how about answering my question...directly? n/t

[zeemike]

35. I think you should study the history of South America.

We do not typically invade and take over a country, so their military is no barrier at all, especially if the military leader has been corrupted and actually will work with you to establish a puppet leader that will keep the money flowing in the right directions.
You really need to understand what has been going on there for the last hundred years...things are not as clear as you might think.

[WriteDown]

37. So why do we need the "troops" on the Dutch fleet? nt

[ronnie624]

42. Why would "we" need troops anywhere in Latin America?

According to the the Pentagon budget submitted to Congress last May, for:

- "contingency operations, logistics, and training in Central/South America"
- "air mobility reach on the South American continent"
- "full spectrum military operations"
- "access to the entire South American continent"
- for conducting "Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance"
- expanding "expeditionary warfare capability"

In other words, the U.S. empire wants to improve its capability to intervene in Latin America in whatever capacity, militarily or otherwise.

Remember? It has been discussed here repeatedly.

[WriteDown]

45. Seems like you should be responding to Zeemike..

Per his post: "We do not typically invade and take over a country..."

[ronnie624]

47. You're tying yourself in knots.

Every message you post on threads discussing Latin America, proceeds from a false premise: that the U.S. has no history of intervention in Latin America. It makes everything you say on the matter illogical.

Zeemike is correct, the U.S. government does not typically invade the countries of South America. It keeps them 'in line' primarily through political and economic coercion, as well as clandestine operations and proxy wars, and on occasion through blatant military aggression. Your message makes no sense. But they rarely do, as they usually consist of no more than two or three lines, which is hardly sufficient to express a meaningful opinion on any subject.

[WriteDown]

49. I'm in knots?

So why do we need the "troops" on the Dutch fleet? Are we going to use "blatant military agression this time?" Darn Obama.

[ronnie624]

51. Dutch fleet.

Dutch fleet.
Dutch fleet.
Dutch fleet.
Dutch fleet.
Dutch fleet.
Dutch fleet.
Dutch fleet.
Dutch fleet.
Dutch fleet.

Lol.

[WriteDown]

52. Everyone knows that the Dutch East India Company is running the show down there...

Probably just more of their evil machinations.

[Posteritatis]

86. A bunch of clerks and truck drivers with a few thousand rifles won't topple an army.

I know we like to think of the contractors as the new Wehrmacht or something, but they aren't as omnipotent as people seem to claim here.

[Crzyrussell]

2. hugo (with a little h)

is starting to become a bit paranoid. I bet he checks underneath his bed before he goes to sleep.

[peacetalksforall]

23. It's a typical reaction. He has proved that he has good intelligence - and

doesn't seem to need torture to get it.

Has a new team of deniers arrived on the scene?

But, if you prefer to call him paranoid, it will be typical of our arrogance.

He is atypical in many ways, but he is not your typical bought and paid for (by the US and Europe) President

But go ahead and blast him.

WE - MAKE THAT WE - already arranged a coup, why not a war?

And it's already been made known that the corporatists are in charge.

What were the two main reasons given for Honduras? Telecommunication companies and the U.S. Military (bases)?

You may be a very innocent thinker.

Ask yourself if Hillary Clinton has said one magnanimous statement about Hugo Chavez or Morales. ITT in Chile. Banana people in Central America. And then there are the drug wars or make it the the wars on competing drug dealers.

Ask your self if Presiden Obama and Hillary Clinton ever raised a peep (while Senators) when Aristedes was yanked into the air and dumped in Africa. But, at least he didn't get dumped in the ocean as was done in south South America or obliterated like Allende or buried raw in the soil in Central America.

Our corporatists hate the rest of the people in this Hemisphere, obviously. They have had no regard for their lives.

If Chavez has some proof, I would believe him over some in our country.

The answer IS probably in numbers. The reasons we would want to do it are all about numbers. Our corporatists have been ever so unhappy about the oil and gas down there. Minerals, also. And some their poor are moving up, plus getting some education. That's no good. With all due sarcasm.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

66. If a war is in the making, you need to cite evidence. Chavez's paranoia doesn't count for much

without it.

[HeresyLives]

3. Considering the history of the US in

South America, Chavez has every reason to be paranoid.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

6. Why make excuses for such odd and eccentric comments?

[HeresyLives]

7. Your history is public knowledge.

In fact, it's often been posted on here.

Lots of countries have cause to be concerned about US moves...because they have previous experience.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

60. My history of not swallowing Chavista propaganda whole is public knowledge? Good.

The U.S. is not gearing up for an invasion of Venezuela and the fact that you defend Chavez' whacky statements to the contrary shows you're more interested in protecting Saint Chavez than in looking at this issue objectively.

[ronnie624]

73. More obfuscation.

The U.S. is planning for a wide array of operations, clandestine and otherwise, against "unfriendly" governments in South America. The Pentagon's own budget proposal says so.

No one here, that I have seen, has claimed that the U.S. is going to invade Venezuela - certainly not anytime soon - although you can be sure such a contingency is a part of the Pentagon's planning. Assigning that claim to those who oppose U.S. imperialism seems dishonest.

As I have said to another rightist on this thread, your whole shtick depends from a false reality: that the U.S. does not have a century long history of intensive and violent intervention in Latin America. In reality, U.S. intervention in this region is enshrined in at least two policy doctrines. Referring to South America as our "backyard" is practically ingrained in U.S. culture. And as I noted above, the Pentagon's budget proposal makes clear the militaristic nature of the U.S. foreign policy establishment's intentions in South America. Excluding such fundamental, overarching facts as a major part of the foundation for forming an opinion on the topic of U.S. involvement in Latin American, makes your statements on the subject seem rather bizarre.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

76. With all due respect

the Pentagon has a number of contingency plans worked out for a number of different nations at all times, very few are ever implemented, so the idea that it would somehow be sinister if they had something laid out for Venezuela strikes me as a bit of a stretch. Perhaps that's not what you're arguing though and I simply misread your intent in that second paragraph?

Secondly, I'm well aware of our history in Latin America, however, I'm also aware that major powers don't simply abandon their spheres of influence. Rather than sit here and hope for a world in which they all will, I'm looking at things as they are. The United States is the major power in the Americas and is putting in place a policy that ensures it is able to exert its military power throughout them, if need be. That, in itself, has little to do with Chavez, Morales, or anyone else, past the fact that we're reworking where our military is based because of changes implemented by Leftist leaning Latin American leaders. This, in itself, is nothing shocking, covert, or even all that sinister. It's the stuff that goes on behind closed doors, and often has little to do with the U.S. military, that I'm more concerned about.

[ronnie624]

77. There's a big difference between simply having a contingency plan on paper,

and having a plan that is backed by military bases, hardware and personnel, with a clear intention of augmenting the forces that are already in place. And let us not, yet again, 'forget' about the hundred year history of intervention in Latin America. It's not as if there's no precedent for U.S. meddling there, waging war against political movements in the sovereign nations in that region. I can't think of any reason for why the U.S. would need military forces in Latin America. There is absolutely no military threat to the United States emanating from there.

I think the corporate empire does not like the Bolivarian movement, and it intends to use Colombia as a base for conducting surveillance of and waging covert war against the Venezuelan government. I think there are many powerful elements within the U.S. foreign policy establishment that would dearly love to see the current political system in Venezuela obliterated.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

81. Right, there is

however, the reshuffling U.S. forces in Latin America based on the very real changes on the ground (a.k.a. our loss of the base at Manta, as well as our loss of bases in the Panama Canal Zone) does not necessarily signal a renewed effort to oust, or combat, leftist leaders. There are very logical reasons for this reshuffling which have nothing to do with Chavez, Morales, or anyone else, past the fact that our military's presence in Ecuador is no longer welcome. Instead of throwing a fit, we've simply moved them elsewhere. It makes sense.

Surveillance of Venezuela's border region will undoubtedly be beefed up, but then again, it probably should be, given the various groups exploiting it for their own ends.

Frankly, I'd be much more worried about what goes on in American embassies in the region than this deal. Those tend to be where coups are dreamed up, not military bases.

[Overseas]

78. Talking about historical precedents some of us have lived through.

We lived through years of "covert" wars in Central America supported by Republican Darling Reagan as "freedom fighters." And sadly, we supported and pretended not to notice death squads in El Salvador during and before Reagan sold arms to Iran to finance the brutal Contras we were using to topple the duly elected Sandinista government.

We've seen many reasons for Central and South American governments to become concerned.

There's that other September 11th. The assassination of President Allende in Chile.

There are lots of better historians on this site. They can give you a lot more detail about the history of US military interventions in other countries around the world.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

82. Interesting you say that

as I'm a historian who's familiar with these issues. I'm not oblivious to this history, however, I'm also not allowing this history to tint each and every policy move the U.S. pursues in Latin America.

[lapfog_1]

8. If I were the dutch, I'd be worried a bit.

There is oil offshore in the territorial waters right off the ABC islands.

I lived there for a while (on Bonaire). Back in my scuba instructor days.

They are tourist islands, they saw more profit in scuba diving than oil development ( but it's been a while, maybe this isn't true anymore). They went to a some effort to save their coral reef system (no dropping anchor, no touching the coral).

Everyone that lived on the island spoke 4 or 5 languages (out of necessity - English, Spanish, Dutch, Papimentu, and usually one additional language).

Great place. Hope they leave the oil under the bottom of the ocean.

[peacetalksforall]

25. Papiamento?

[Baclava]

10. Screw the Dutch

What have they ever done for us?

[Wilms]

12. The piece ends...

"Obama should give back the prize," Chavez said, suggesting that his close ally — Bolivian President Evo Morales — would have been a better choice.

[EFerrari]

27. I miss the gloves. The week or two of nice white gloves.

:(

[David__77]

48. Evo Morales indeed would have been a wonderful choice.

But the Nobel Peace Prize, going to the likes of former South Africa President de Klerk, is not a basion of progressive politics.

[Judi Lynn]

28. US Military Bases in Latin America and the Caribbean

US Military Bases in Latin America and the Caribbean
By John Lindsay-Poland*
Foreign Policy in Focus
August 2004

~snip~
The soldiers and contract employees that the U.S. military deploys to bases in Latin America and the Caribbean far outnumber the staffs of U.S. civilian agencies in the region. The presence of more than 10,000 U.S. personnel on military missions abroad sends a message that the United States prefers force over diplomacy to settle the region's problems, including problems that involve conflict with the United States. In addition to their role in facilitating military operations, U.S. bases are a symbol of Washington's history of armed intervention and of its use of local armies to control the region's people and resources. Several U.S. bases in the Caribbean were explicitly acquired, not by mutual agreement but through conquests in the 1898 Spanish-American-Cuban War.
Besides evoking the past, the bases are contracted into a future beyond any articulated military mission. Plan Colombia was originally envisioned as a two-year push into guerrilla-occupied southern territories, with vague plans for subsequent years. In contrast, the Pentagon has ten-year leases in Ecuador, Curacao, and Aruba and a presence in perpetuity at its naval base in Guantánamo. This permanent infrastructure generates inequitable relations and invites intervention instead of negotiation in a crisis situation, as it did in Panama and Puerto Rico (historically, the sites for other long-term U.S. bases in the region).

The cooperative security locations, purportedly created to monitor drug traffic, have no mechanism for transparency or monitoring by civil society in the host countries and are thus subject to other missions. This is especially disturbing in light of the expansion of U.S. objectives in Colombia to include "counterterrorism." As early as 1999, a State Department official said that "the new counternarcotics bases located in Ecuador, Aruba and Curacao will be strategic points for closely following the steps of the guerrillas." Aircraft from the Manta base were even used to locate and detain a fishing boat carrying Ecuadoreans who were suspected of planning to enter the United States.

Similarly, the mission for troops at Guantanamo Bay has morphed from orchestrating counterdrug operations to providing an off-shore jail for migrants and, since late 2001, prisoners of war. These operations have no accountability under U.S. or international law and undermine Cuba's sovereignty.

The dramatically increased U.S. military involvement in Colombia and the spillover of conflict in the border region have generated alarm among broad sectors of Ecuadorean society—including the military—over the potentially destabilizing role of the Manta base. One Ecuadorean officer points out that the base's electronic intelligence capability provides information that can be used by Colombian counterinsurgency units trained by the United States. Other opponents of the U.S. presence note that Ecuador's Congress never considered or approved the base agreement, as the Ecuadorean Constitution requires. Many also object to provisions exempting U.S. on-duty military personnel from Ecuadorean criminal jurisdiction.

The cooperative security location in Comalapa, El Salvador, operated by the Navy since 2000, has no limit on the number of U.S. personnel, who have access to ports, air space, and unspecified government installations considered pertinent. In 2001, the opposition FMLN party argued that the agreement affects Salvadoran sovereignty and thus requires more than a simple majority vote by the legislature for ratification, but this claim was rejected by Salvadoran courts.

In Puerto Rico, the remaining military bases have additional political functions. On an island where the FBI has compiled 1.8 million documents based on surveillance of independence proponents and other political activists, the presence of U.S. military bases plays a significant role in enforcing Puerto Rican identification with Washington, thus contributing to continued colonialism.

Similar problems of sovereignty dog the proposed International Law Enforcement Academy, which—despite its name—is designed to be completely under U.S. control. Costa Rica would have to give diplomatic immunity to academy staff at a time when the United States is aggressively opting out of the International Criminal Court. As Gustavo Cabrera Vega of Service for Peace and Justice, a Costa Rican human rights group, asks, "If the United States doesn't recognize the universal human rights conventions, with what authority will it train and give skills to combat international crime?" With Costa Ricans balking at agreement, Washington is considering other sites, including El Salvador and the Dominican Republic.

The outsourcing to private companies of air transport, base construction and maintenance, the host-nation rider program, and other military activities overseas diminishes the information available to those who would monitor such activities and decreases the accountability for U.S.-sponsored actions abroad. Only after an enterprising reporter discovered an Internet-posted request for proposals did Panamanian civil society learn that the Pentagon had been using airstrips in Panama for "transportation services" into and out of Colombia, even after U.S. troops had left Panama. The 1997 contract tapped Evergreen Helicopters, a company with clandestine experience in the 1989 U.S. invasion of Panama.

More:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/153/26157.html

[Overseas]

80. I don't want every hope I had for change to be shattered.

And yet so many aggressive moves are occurring even in the atmosphere of my dear new president telling us and the world that he believes in negotiation and wants to deal with other countries with respect.

Military privatization has made everything even worse. Except that as the story notes, RFPs can be trawled to discover what they're up to.

[Goldstein1984]

33. The U.S. has 5% of the world's human population, but...

we spend as much on "defense" as the other 95%. Do we fear everyone? Do we want everyone to fear us?

Bay of Pigs (1961)
Chile (1973)
El Salvador - Support for Duarte Right Wing Junta (1979)
Iran Contra (1980s)
Haiti - Support for Baby Doc Duvalier (1980s)
Grenada - US Invasion (1983)
Venezuela (2002)
Honduras (2009)
The War on Drugs (1980 - present)

Bush Doctrine of Preventive War

We demonize democratically elected presidents because they are socialists.

What do our neighbors to the south have to be paranoid about?

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. The truth is out!!! Obama is planning an invasion of Venezuela!

;)

[WriteDown]

38. When does his war crimes trial start again?

:eyes:

[Bacchus39]

39. Obama is coming for you Hugo. be afraid, be very afraid

Bush is a lamb compared to what Obama is going to unleash on you. Obama hates arepas and he thinks you're a punk ass bitch.

[ronnie624]

46. The term 'invasion'

was never used in the article. It was employed only by those on this thread who wish to dissemble and obfuscate. The U.S. has a long, easily traceable history of continuous intervention in Central and South America. The language of the most recent Pentagon budget makes the intentions of the U.S. government in South America perfectly clear.

[Bacchus39]

40. Chavez: with Obama, there is still the smell of sulphur

Spanish:

http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/12/18/pol_ava_chavez:-con-obama-ee_18A3208893.shtml

[MellowDem]

50. Every time Chavez sees an opportunity for political fear-mongering...

he sees a US threat.

[EFerrari]

54. Try reading the thread. Geebus, we should just have one continuous

Chavez bashing thread for people who have no interest whatsoever in Latin America or our history or even current policy there but just like to post random deep thoughts about Chavez.

[MellowDem]

57. It wasn't deep...

because Chavez isn't too hard to read. I know all about the history, but it's an excuse to cite history to justify what are basically idiotic statements meant more for distracting the populace from domestic problems with an Evil Boogieman. Yes, the US is now building up a massive army just off the coast of Venezuela and we're about to invade! Rally around Chavez! :eyes:

Really, I don't think Chavez is that horrible of a demagogue, relatively. I just don't mind pointing out when he is being one.

[EFerrari]

61. Well, no. There is a build up going on in Colombia

that the whole region objects to. Unless all those leaders are also in on Chavez's evil plan, I'm sorry but you're just wrong.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

63. It's Colombia's call, not anyone else's.

[Judi Lynn]

55. So he should wait meekly, like all the OTHER leaders the US has removed, with few survivors.

Where were you so long ago when tons of documents were made available for public information, or tons of information published concerning hideous US supported coups, some of it even making it into movies concerning US predation on ALL of Latin America and the Caribbean, while still deceitfully claiming it was all happened because of evil "commies" and who cares how many commies get killed? After the "cold war" "ended" the unwanted poor were renamed narcotraffickers, then "terrorists." It's open season on any and all real or possible leftists. Anyone who can present a problem will be eliminated. Prominent ones will be excoriated, attacked relentlessly by corporate media to mold public perception. How is it you fall for it, and do it witlessly?

How did you avoid knowing what conscious, and conscientious people learned long ago? How did you resist the temptation to try to find out what has been going on, in such an unvaried, brutal, deceitful pattern, for over a hundred years to keep the masses of Latin America poor, terrified, demoralized, useful for cheap labor, and helpless to defend themselves?

Quite the accomplishment.http://school.discoveryeducation.com.nyud.net:8090/clipart/images/blueawardribbonsmall.gif

[MellowDem]

59. Time passes...

and the US has by and large gotten off of its regime change policies of a couple decades ago. I know that there are a lot of people who think the CIA is behind everything that ever happens, but I'm not a believer. The US is concentrating on the Mid-East right now and the Communist boogieman is dead in Latin America. The domino theory has long been dis proven and there really is no reason for the US to kill off Latin American leaders. The new administration, for all its faults, is all about diplomacy and has a respect for the sovereignty of other nations, so I'm not worried. Chavez is not worried about the US, he's worried about how to remain leader for life.

[EFerrari]

62. Well, no again. There was a cell in Santa Cruz, Bolivia

this spring that was busted for their plan to assassinate Morales. The money tracked back to the fake Human Rights Foundation, and from there, to the State Department.

And then you might have heard of this little problem in Honduras where the plane that kidnapped the sitting president fueled up at our base and where Clinton's PR pro Lanny Davis somehow wound up speaking for the coup while our "diplomats" insulted the Honduran president on the floor of the UN and unlike the rest of the world, the US decided to recognize the fake election.

Meanwhile, there is a US build up in Colombia and a new base (eta: being developed) in Panama and the whole region is not liking this new attention it's getting from the Obama administration -- whose candidacy was supported and even celebrated all over Latin America.

Nothing has changed and you don't need to be a believer to know that.

[MellowDem]

64. You only have insinuations...

that the US government was directly involved in any of that, and much of your reasoning seems forced. The build-up is not that large at all, something like 1,400 US personal, and the sole purpose is to restrict the drug trade. Personally, I think the War on Drugs is a very stupid policy, but I don't think that it's just a cover to engage in war with Venezuela. It wouldn't make any sense for the US to go to war with Venezuela strategically. We hardly get any of our oil from them. We don't need Venezuela.

[EFerrari]

67. No, I don't only have insinuations at all.

I try to be very careful about the claims I make. The money from the cell in Santa Cruz did track back to the fake Human Rights Foundation and their money tracked back to State.

It's a matter of public reoord that the plane kidnapping Zelaya fueled up at our base and that Lanny Davis was hired to represent the coup.

It's also a matter of public record that the US government has made a deal with the murderous thugs in Colombia to use 5-7 bases, depending on whose account you're reading.

None of this is insinuation, thanks.

In case you haven't noticed, Latin America has been pushing back against the predators at the IMF and the World Bank for most of a decade. There are people that are very unhappy about that. Which is why there is some dumbass story about Chavez in the American media about once a week.

There is already a war on democracy in Latin America. And since Chavez is the lightening rod and he has been very actively creating alternative networks in the region, they go after him first as we know from 2002.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

68. Curious...

as the military in Honduras was carrying out the orders of the Court, and not seizing power for themselves, is it truly fair to characterize what took place there as a "coup"? After all, the Court's ruling was in line with the Honduran constitution, which makes no bones about the fact that Zelaya should have been removed for signalling an intent to alter the constitution with regard to term limits.

Secondly, do you have a source with regard your claims regarding U.S. government involvement in an effort to assassinate Morales?

Third, generally speaking, the stupid stories about Chavez that appear are his own making. He loves drawing attention to him and presenting himself to the world as some champion for the poor, standing up to the big bullying United States (or better yet, capitalism as a whole) - even in situations that in no way call for it, like the talks in Copenhagen. Frankly, if he wasn't purposely seeking this kind of attention, he'd tone it down a bit from time to time.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

65. The courts don't typically instigate "coups"

[ChangoLoa]

71. Coincidence... nt.

[slackmaster]

69. What an ass that man is

He looks and acts more like Benito Mussolini every day.

He rules one of the most oil-rich countries in the world, yet can't provide its people with sufficient electrical power or potable water.

[EFerrari]

74. Sounds like Santa Monica in 2001.

lol

[Wilms]

83. !

:rofl:

I'm glad you mentioned Santa Monica. Prime examples east of the Mason Dixon Line...well, it's just too early. Not right. Won't go there. Heck of a job.

[asdfa88550]

72. he's right to be afraid

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

75. Jesus Christ, if we attack him will he shut the fuck up?

Talk about the boy who cried wolf. Through a megaphone. While people were trying to sleep.

[Posteritatis]

87. Yeah, but his fanclub here will get even louder, and do we really want that? (nt)

[Socal31]

79. Quick!

Better hurry up and buy more arms to fight the boogieman Hugego!

[boppers]

84. He wants to make war with the Dutch?

Wow.

Let me know how that turns out.

[Coventina]

85. Like Chavez, I too fear the mighty Dutch empire!

Everyday I tremble that they may take Manhatten back, or maybe even all of North America! Then I'll be forced to work in the tulip fields in wooden clogs.

They'll probably force me to smoke marijuana, too!

:scared:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. Just the utter snarkiness and deliberate ignorance of the Chavez bashers,

as well as their conservaDem positions on other issues, is enough to make me a supporter.

I'm GLAD that Latin American leaders are getting feisty.

Chavez is no threat to us.

The left-leaning Latin American leaders may be threats to American corporate interests, and if so, good for them! But none of them plan to attack the U.S. or do anything that harms ordinary people.)

[bemildred]

89. But, but, he says mean things about our politicians!

We can't just let that go. Egos are at stake.

[marshall]

90. Gearing up for a Falkland/Malvinas Island debacle?

The Netherlands certainly couldn't put up as big a fight as Britain did. He may be wondering if the US will step in.

[EFerrari]

93. The State Department seems to be trying to create an incident.

Imo, Honduras was their trial balloon to see how involved the new admin would get. They got their answer.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

98. I think that's a stretch

Unless you can trace the decision of the Honduran Court to the State Department, I don't think you have much of a case.

[Stella_Artois]

95. You do have to wonder who the audience is

Is it the Dutch ?

The Americans ?

His own people ?

Invading the islands is most likely the last of his objectives. Pre-emptive military aggression would be a hard thing to defend.

[Judi Lynn]

91. This week marks the 20th anniversary of Bush 41's invasion of Panama, murdering 4000.

After 20 years, US invasion of Panama leaves bad aftertaste
Posted : Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:27:56 GMT
By : dpa

Washington - Operation Just Cause began a few days before Christmas. Shortly after midnight on December 20, 1989, the first convoy of trucks of about 24,000 invading US troops wound their way through Panama City. A little later, bombers flew over the capital of Panama. Their target was the headquarters of General Manuel Antonio Noriega, alleged drug boss and military strongman of Panama. The involvement of the earlier informant for the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in drugs and money laundering had now made him an enemy of Washington.

The US plan was a success. But even 20 years after the invasion, a bitter aftertaste remains of actions considered questionable under international law. The fate of Noriega, who remains in a Florida prison where he was serving a sentence for drug trafficking, is also still a controversial subject.

The invasion of Panama "created a big split between Washington and the rest of Latin America," said Michael Shifter of the Inter- American Dialogue, a Washington think tank. "Washington still regards the invasion as justified and the right thing to have done, whereas in many Latin American countries - while no one defends Noriega - there is widespread agreement that the US acted illegally," Shifter told the German Press Agency dpa.

It was then president George HW Bush who sent US troops into Panama to overthrow the corrupt regime of Noriega, claiming that he was threatening the security of the canal as well as Americans living there. "We want to bring him to justice, we want him out and we want to restore democracy to Panama," Bush said at the time, justifying the surprise invasion. He had the backing of two prominent politicians - Defence Secretary Dick Cheney, who became vice president under Bush's son, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell, who later became secretary of state.

As a young man, Noriega worked as a CIA informant, collecting information on leftist groups and movements in Latin America. As he made his way to the top echelons of the military and then de facto head of government, Noriega opened several rifts with the United States.

More:
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/300211,after-20-years-us-invasion-of-panama-leaves-bad-aftertaste.html

Anyone who hasn't learned much about this attack on Panama during Christmas Week in 1989, killing 4,000 Panamanians, very slickly misrepresented by corporate media, can learn more from viewing "The Panama Deception," which won an Academy Award for documentaries, narrated by Elizabeth Montgomery. This is Part 1 of 12, all offered at YouTube, lasting around 7 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD1gDC-jXdE

[G_j]

94. good history lesson

thanks!

[jberryhill]

92. Next thing you know...

Those Dutch will start building dykes and cut off Venezuela's access to the Atlantic.

Then, they'll grow barricades of tulip fields and open marijuana coffee shops.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

96. Paranoia will destroy ya!

[Flaneur]

99. Paranoia? "Dutch MP: Curaçao is US spy base"

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-mp-cura%C3%A7ao-us-spy-base

Dutch Socialist MP Harry van Bommel has claimed that US spy planes are using an airbase on the Netherlands Antilles island of Curaçao.

Mr Van Bommel has asked Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen whether he is aware that a Boeing RC-135 aircraft has been making regular reconnaissance flights from the Caribbean island's Hato airport over the past few weeks.

War on drugs

The flights were the cause of angry reactions by Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez, who accused the Netherlands of colluding with the United States. The Hague government is contributing to rising tensions between Venezuela and Colombia, according to the Venezuelan authorities.

The opposition MP said it is up to the Netherlands to help de-escalate these tensions. He is asking for a ban on American military flights over Colombia from the Antilles. Ostensibly such flights are part of the US "war on drugs" but Mr Van Bommel claims they are also used in a "war on guerrillas". The MP wants to scrap the US-Netherlands Forwards Operations Location treaty enabling the Americans to use airfields in Curaçao and the Antilles for anti-drugs flights.

Shoot them down

Meanwhile President Chávez has ordered his airforce to shoot down any US plane entering Venezuelan airspace. He said on state television that a US drone, an unmanned plane, had attempted to enter from Colombia on Sunday. Since an agreement with the Colombian government was signed in October, the US military have access to seven military bases in Colombia.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

100. Chavez would have far fewer problems if he didn't allow the FARC to operate on Venezuelan soil

As long as the status quo remains in place, his protestations seem a bit ridiculous.

[Flaneur]

101. And the US would have far fewer problems if it minded its own business.

The status quo will remain in place until there is real democracy and social justice in Colombia.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

102. When a nation is sheltering the guerilla army aiming to overthrow its neighbor

it tends to be the world's business, no? And frankly, I wouldn't look to the FARC as heroes fighting for "real democracy" or "social justice", not based on their actions.

[Flaneur]

103. No. it is not the US's business. We are not the world's policeman.

How is your buddy Uribe's body count coming, by the way? I think I just read today about more "false positives."

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

107. When it's occuring in what has historically been considered the U.S.' backyard

it is the U.S.' business. We ought to be aware of what's transpiring.

[dipsydoodle]

109. Even considering it to be the USA's back yard

was plain fucking arrogance.

If it was so however then now its Russia and China backyard to maybe you should just deal with.

[Judi Lynn]

104. Apparently he's also "allowing" the Colombian paras to operate there, as well.

Venezuelan opposition hires Colombian paramilitary death squads
Oil Wars
July 12, 2006

Excerpt from report:

In today’s edition of (the Caracas daily) Ultimas Noticias, an article described how Colombian paramilitary organizations, responsible for killing thousands of people in Colombia, now have a significant presence in Venezuela. They are mainly concentrated close to the Colombian border in the Venezuelan state of Táchira.

In the article a couple of young paramilitaries now living in Venezuela describe how they got their start killing suspected guerrillas in Colombia, first torturing them in attempt to get information and later cutting them in pieces. Later the paramilitaries were being demobilized, but these individuals moved to Venezuela because, as they put it, Venezuela needs to be rid of its "guerilla government."

Now they claim to get assassination contracts to kill "people that cause problems directing land takeovers (hundreds of rural activists have been killed in recent years) and that support the biggest guerilla group in South America that is in Miraflores Palace." (Editor's Note: Miraflores Palace is Venezuela's presidential palace, located in downtown Caracas).

They charge 500,000 bolivares per killing, about $225, but charge significantly more if it is a local official or councilperson that is to be killed. They claim they used to be paid more but that now the price is falling due to "too much competition." They claim not to know who was behind the Danilo Anderson murder (a former Colombian intelligence official claimed it was dissident Venezuelan generals along with opposition extremist Patricia Poleo who has now fled to the United States) but heard that a lot of money was paid for the job. (Editor's Note: Danilo Anderson was a Venezuelan state prosecutor who was murdered in November 2004, when he was attempting to prosecute alleged plotters of a failed coup against the Chávez government).

http://lanr.blogspot.com/2006/07/venezuelan-opposition-hires-colombian.html

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

108. Part of the problem is that the border area is lawless

However, Chavez's sympathies for the FARC are well known.