Poll: Voters Revolt Against Mandates (Voters Overwhelmingly Say Obama Didn't Fight Lieberman Enough)

[Hissyspit]

Source: Progressive Change Campaign Committee / Democracy For America

National Poll: VOTERS REVOLT AGAINST MANDATES WITHOUT PUBLIC OPTION

Public option: 59% to 31%.

Mandates without public option: 33% to 56%.

Voters overwhelming say Obama didn't fight Lieberman hard enough: 63% to 29%.

This Research 2000 National Poll was conducted for the Progressive Change Campaign Committee and Democracy for America from Dec. 16 through Dec. 17, 2009. A total of 800 likely voters were interviewed by telephone. Margin of error is 3.5% overall.

Read more: http://act.boldprogressives.org/cms/sign/natpollresults121809/

[earthside]

1. It's Dead.

The best outcome now for Democrats is to let Lieberman or Nelson filibuster and drive a wooden stake into this corpse.

[bc3000]

3. They better make them actually filibuster it

Every person that votes against allowing a vote on health care should have to go on record and actually filibuster it.

[cilla4progress]

4. Agreed!

How would that look on C-SPAN?

[Ken Burch]

79. They'd have TWO comment lines...

One for vampires, one for non-vampires(actually, now that "New Moon" is out, they'd have three: there'd be a line for werewolves as well, since they'd be the ones still fighting for single-payer).

[bjobotts]

108. Still don't get it. Lieberman is doing what the WH wants.This is what they wanted all along

Rahm Obama bargained the PO away before it ever got through the house and certainly weren't gonna go for the expansion of Medicare....both of which might lead to single payer in the near future. Joe couldn't even rationally explain why he was against both until he got his talking points handed to him by Rahm. Rahm figured they just couldn't survive the millions big Pharma and private ins. would donate to their opposition.

Lieberman is just doing the WH's bidding.

[pattmarty]

6. I agree. At this point in this almost a year of "ineptness" on HC reform....................

..............the best the Dems can get out of this fiasco is to show that "we couldn't pass our great bill because of these (insert names of filibusters) obstructionists. This MIGHT then avoid the potential bloodbath in next years elections, although they still are going to get beat up on and lose seats.

[emsimon33]

20. Too late...they lost us. So many of my activist friends are just staying home

If Obama and the Dems think that all it takes is money to win and they have the money because they sold out to the insurance companies, 2010 will be a real wake up call. This is Obama's "read my lips" moment. The majority who wanted real reform will just stay home and the loonies will be back in power.

[pattmarty]

37. At this point in time, I would tend to agree with that.

[Bitwit1234]

55. Me too...Obama has lost the base and most of the progressives

plus the Independents if he doesn't get his a** in gear and forget Emanuel and get this bill with a public option with out the abortion crap passed. NOW THIS YEAR NO PUSSY FOOTING AROUND.

Because nothing he does from now on will help get him re=elected if he lets this Health Bill go down the drain. They can bypass the republicans, they know they can. GET IT DONE DAMN IT.

[judesedit]

85. It hasn't even been 1 year yet and Obama is way better than anyone from the party that destroyed us

Although I agree Obama should get tougher, I can't help but think of the alternative. How quickly we forget the 8 years preceding and what it brought us. Now trying to dump everything on Obama with their bs propaganda. The first thing we have to do is vote 90% of the current incumbents out of office if we really want to see change. Some of these old geezers have got to go. ASAP!

[Goldstein1984]

87. The opportunity is in the primaries

Everyone who says that in the general election we have no reasonable choice but to vote Democrat, even if it is just the lesser of two evils, is correct.

Where we have to make change happen is in the primaries. We can target corporate toadie incumbents there.

[No Elephants]

139. You also have to let the DNC know that its policies of protecting incumbents

is not acceptable. Ditto the superdelegates.

[DisgustedInMN]

129. Quit making excuses.

We have been sold out by Obama, pure and simple. We should have seen it coming when he filled his staff with a bunch of Clinton corporate retreads. Yep, the openly loony WILL retake control because of this. Problem is, our only option besides the loonies, has turned out to be a lying, backstabbing son of a bitch.

[Username 12]

84. Obama was an absentee landlord on HCR

He deserves the blowback!

[freddie mertz]

51. Agreed. The attack on Dean was an attack on the entire progressive community.

And I ain't forgettin.'

[Goldstein1984]

88. That's what it felt like to me

If Obama is paying attention, part of getting on track has to be admitting attacking Dean was not only a political mistake, but was fundamentally wrong.

Dean and and the people got it right; the Obama Administration and Congressional Democrats got it wrong.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

126. but we are insane, irrational, worthless, toothless, silly,

and stuck in the basement in mommy's house.

And that blithering tweety added his shot last night, calling us a fringe group.


So what the HELL would you call the teabaggers?

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

134. Agreed

[donquijoterocket]

63. almost

I'd almost agree with that except I don't think the "loony" base is any more energized. The may have their moments when Caribou Barbie gins up some outrage or when the Corporate and fux noise backed teabaggers turn out a near respectable gathering, but for the long haul and the hard work it takes to elect enough folks to enact their agenda I don't think they can find the Geritol reserves they need.As testimony I'd say witness the so-called die-in they were going to stage the other day.I'd still believe that when it becomes a matter of clear alternatives the progressives will show up. That may be the only thing that reduces potential Democratic losses, that and the fact that the loonies have never really been good at the kind of shoe leather politics it would take to galvanize their body politic.

[No Elephants]

138. Respectfully, your activist friends ought to work to elect liberals.

The media always spins stay at homes however it wants. And it is unlikely to spin to say people were dissatisfied because the candidates were not sufficiently liberal. And then, there is always the option of writing in someone.

[judesedit]

82. Actually it's more like 40 or 100

Until we get the 235 or so millionaires out of Congress, it will remain this way. Where do you think they are getting their big bucks? They could care less about the citizens of this country. As long as we sit still, keep our mouths shut, fall for their bs and keep paying our taxes so THEY have THEIR premium health insurance PAID FOR BY US, it will remain status quo. That is what Obama meant when he said, "It isn't about him, it's about US!"

[Goldstein1984]

90. Get the millionaires out of Congress

Now THAT is a platform for a third party!

[No Elephants]

143. Grayson and Rockefeller are millionaires. So was Kennedy. I don't think that is the litmus test.

In fact, every single Senator is a millionaire. I remember reading when Biden was named VP nominee, that at something over 2 million, he was the least wealthy Senator. I would not cut Feingold or Rockefeller, though.

[wisteria]

35. Wishful thinking. It is not dead. n/t

[laughingliberal]

They won't filibuster it,now. They have the bill they wanted

and the one the White House wanted.

[McCamy Taylor]

50. How can it be dead? The insurance industry is funneling our premiums that should be

used to keep us alive longer to DC to keep this bill's unholy heart ticking way beyond its political viability point.

[ihavenobias]

65. Sad but true.

K & R

[YewNork]

61. And wait another 20 years before we ever have another opportunity

[quakerboy]

150. No

The best outcome for Democrats is to take up the mantle of killing a bad bill, rather than being the ones defeated. Make the right and center own it, since they wrote it. Then actively kill it, as unacceptable to the people. Have Franken and Boxer do the filibuster. They are senators, and they have as much power as lieberman or nelson, should they choose to exercise it in the favor of the people.

Then go back and pass this piece meal.

One bill about drug reimporation and nothing else. Make each senator own their position on this to the seniors at home who need a break. Leave it simple with no way to obfuscate their vote and hide it in the middle of general opposition to 2000 pages of stuff.

Then do it again about insurance industry anti trust. And again about insurance industry profit margin. And again about insuring all children. and again about extending medicare to those 55-65 who are interested. etc. One point at a time, no deal making or this for that or "i like this part, but not that". KISS.

We may not win them all, in fact probably wouldn't. But come the next election, we have a powerful and simple way to show the people who are with them and who are against. And that is a fight we can win in spades, if we take it up.

[cilla4progress]

2. This is so tough

I love Obama so much. But I believe he is dead wrong in his approach to passing health care reform. His failure to fully push the public option leaves me with great disappointment.

[MUAD_DIB]

8. Sadly, he dropped the ball by thinking that Reid would run with it.

We need fighters that aren't afraid to get into a scuffle.

[azmesa207]

21. Don't blame Reid

Obama the leader of the democratic party and it plain to see he doesn't care if we have a public option or not. He the one that telling Reid to give Lieberman what he want and all the rest of the Blue dog democrats as well . Obama has stab us all in the back it time you people realize he has been in the health care Industry pocket from the start .

[groundloop]

29. I do blame Reid

He's the one that kept saying "don't worry, I've got the votes".

[Matariki]

32. And for not making the opponents actually filabuster

Instead of perpetuating the 60 vote garbage

[Milo_Bloom]

54. This isn't the first time, either.

Wall street bailout, lack of REAL reform in the financial markets, a joke of a credit card bill.


Unfortunately, when it comes to the items that needed REAL LEADERSHIP and COURAGE, Obama has failed.

[Jackpine Radical]

73. Lots of us DO know that.

And for the ones that didn't, Feingold just told them the other day. Don't blame Lieberman. He was just making sure Obama got the policy he wanted from the beginning.

[ooglymoogly]

96. What you are saying is true, which makes it doubly

incomprehensible, as the Senate is supposed to be an independent body from the WH, which in turn makes Reid doubly responsible for this debacle as he is not performing his duties as head of that independent body. Reid is a weakling and should be replaced, if this kabuki dance between the WH, lobbyists and congress is to end. Can anyone imagine Grayson, for instance, acting like Reid in similar circumstances.

[Dragonfli]

107. Correct, Obama made his wishes known when he said "give him everything he wants" or

put another way, "fuck what the people want, Joe has the right idea". If no one noticed he made it even clearer when he attacked Dean (the advocate of the peoples wishes). Notice holy Joe was not the one he attacked, but rather an advocate of the peoples wishes (the polls have been consistent and clear that the people want what Dean also wants).

It was a clear choice and the decision was to give Joe whatever he wanted without even negotiating with him while attacking the advocate for competition. It could not be clearer if he literally told us to "fuck off" else he would have done the opposite and attacked Lieberman and given the people what they wanted by supported our wishes even if it meant threatening Joe's committee chairs.

How gullible and blind can people be not to notice the obvious choice of the administration in this?

[WorkingClassDemocrat]

110. Frank Rich had it right

We've been punked. Obama, Emanuel, Axlerod, they have been scamming us. They are nothing but fronts for the scam artists they chose to run our economy.

[freddie mertz]

52. Reid was just doing what the pres wanted him to. If anything...

.... he seems to have tried get the public option BACK into the bill, however lamely, after Obama had signaled to one and all that he didn't care one way or another.

This is Obama's baby all the way.

[No Elephants]

140. You know his thoughts?

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pattmarty]

5. This is not good. You would imagine that his political advisors.............

................know this by their own polling. This (to me) reflects the disappointment that most people that voted for him feel for a number of reasons. The thing too is the people in the so called "middle" are leaving him also.

[Vidar]

7. K&R.

[thereismore]

9. There you have it. nt

[Tesha]

31. Remember: it was Lieberman and *NOT* the Democrat who was Obama's CT choice in 2006.

We should pay more attention when Democrats campaign for the more-Right-
Wing candidates!

Tesha

[niceypoo]

10. He didnt fight Lieberman at all

He handed him the reins. Of all the assholes on earth to hand it over to. And they wonder why we are pissed.

[Exultant Democracy]

24. He didn't hand over anything. Lieberman is just cover for what he wanted to do from the start.

[niceypoo]

72. Even worse, if true

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Look at the online comments for Krugman's column today (12/17)

The mandate to buy private insurance is HUGELY unpopular.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. Wrong place

oops

[eagertolearn]

131. And that will totally be blamed on the democrats as people get fined for

not buying health insurance.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

133. I swear the Dems are trying to self-destruct

or maybe the DINOs are all Republican moles who are trying to bring precisely that outcome about.

[glen123098]

12. I'm surprised 1/3 of people actually support mandates.

[eilen]

75. Those are the people already covered by their employer.

They won't care until it directly affects them.

[Goldstein1984]

92. Not fair

I'm covered by a very good "cadillac" plan, and I will gladly give it up and let the $900/month ($300 from me) be used to help fund a single-payer plan that gets insurance companies out of the health care business.

Nobody should be without health care. I believe it's a fundamental right for everyone.

[eilen]

130. I'm not saying that every person who is covered by the employer plans

support mandates. I'm saying the majority of those that support them are covered by employer plans. People who support mandates and people who support single payor are not mutually exclusive. However mandates are often supported most by those that are not faced with paying large amounts for mandated non employer plans. I also suspect that those that support mandates have not been soaked with high medical costs with denials made by ins. companies. They may also be people who have a financial stake in keeping things the way they are, such as health practitioners (doctors, dentists, hospital and health agency administrators, insurance company employees etc.).


I support single payor supported by increased taxes. I think everyone should get mashed potatoes. If you want gravy, buy a gravy insurance policy. I'm willing to pay increased taxes (progressive). However, I can't afford another $900-$1500 a month. I just. don't. have. it. To force people to pay that (family insurance) to private companies with no price controls, no real oversight and regulation to companies that invest their assets in the stock market (gamble) and hand out outlandish bonuses and salary packages as well as campaign contributions is fascist. The collective taxes for Americans for healthcare already has an administrative body and a good system to check for fraud and measurable outcomes and that is the Medicare system. It needs beefing up and some reforms still but it works.

[eagertolearn]

154. Many employers are having to cut back their benefits because of the

the huge increases the insurance companies are charging. They'll "get it" soon!

[Mari333]

13. hey white house, you listening?

Hey RAHM? listening? Axelrod?

this is the US public speaking

[Golden Raisin]

42. They don't care.

We (voters/citizens) only exist at each election cycle to vote and send them back for another term and as an endless source of tax dollars.

[Jamastiene]

68. Maybe we should practice civil disobedience and make them care. n/t

[Goldstein1984]

93. I like the way you think.

Nothing is going to change unless we make our elected officials fear us more than their corporate masters.

While we're at it, shaking up their corporate masters should be on the agenda.

[sabrina 1]

103. One way to do that is to let them know that if they pass this bill

the public will refuse to buy those premiums, as Keith O. said the other night.

Sadly I don't think they care what we think or want, look at what happened with the bailouts. An over whelming majority crossing all political lines, told them not to do it. And even when we got through to Congress, THEY, Paulson et al, told Congress who the boss is and they got their, well OUR, money.

I think this is the bill they wanted. Nothing for the people to opt out of paying into the corrupt Private Ins. Industry, guaranteeing that all available money, even if it has to be squeezed out of the poor, will go to the Insurance Industry.

They can pass the bill, which I believe the will no matter what the people think, but they can't force us to pay. How many can they throw in jail?

Now is the time to prepare for that, and let them know, there will be a revolt against Madated Insurance. Keith said he would go to jail. I have to say, I've heard a few other people say that also.

Civil disobedience needs to hit them where it hurts or they just ignore it. Refusing to play along with this heist seems the best way to send them a message.

[WorkingClassDemocrat]

112. Then try not to forget before the next cycle! nt

[closeupready]

14. Can they put a public option back in?

??

[dana_b]

40. sure

but would they get the votes?? At this point I think it's not up to the American people.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. So that hand full of DLCers and Insurance Brokers who have told

keep telling us Americans love the Lieberman Insurance By Force Act and only the radical, insane, childish, left of the left, fringe opposes mandated contributions to United Health Care Executive Bonus Plan. Guess that handful of shills was off the mark yet again.

[Amonester]

89. How more Wrong can they be...

They think they represent the majority of the voters, when in reality, it is the Lefties who got them elected that do that.

I've even seen a lot of them on DU, and they never miss an opportunity to ridicule the Left, while cheerleading the Wrong bills...

The Left Will Know Who To Blame For The Effin' mandates Losses That Will Follow.

[Plucketeer]

16. One can only wonder........

.........what it would be like if Kennedy were here.

[varelse]

17. Thank you

kicking for later reading.

[Sunnyshine]

18. Could it be any clearer?

Come on Mr. President- listen to the voters! You can do it! Or not?

[closeupready]

19. No, he can't.

Neither can we. :rofl:

[Sunnyshine]

38. Yes, we can?

But won't. :cry:

[JohnWxy]

22. recommended. Obama hasn't learned dealing with GOP & friends is MMA on steriods.

[Deep13]

23. Duh. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

25. "Oh what a *&%$ing mess we make...

when we first practise to triangulate"

This is why the DLC also usually loses elections.

[hamsterjill]

26. I wanted to believe in Obama...

I supported Hillary. Then when it was obvious she wasn't going to be the candidate, I put all of my feelings aside and supported Obama because I wanted the party to be united and whole.

But I've not been impressed with Mr. Obama. His rhetoric is great. He convinces me AGAIN every time I hear him speak about any given subject. But then I wait...and wait...and wait...for his promises to take shape and turn into real action. And I see no real change.

Yes, there has been some progress made, but not enough to make me happy. By the time action on an issue comes to fruition, it's in such a watered-down version that it doesn't even resemble the original plan. Something not even recognizable.

Quit talking, Mr. President. Quit trying to keep too many happy. Do what you said you'd do during your fired up campaign. So what if it makes some of them mad...do something decisive.

[xxqqqzme]

76. I hear that.

I was never a big Obama supporter either. I was certainly impressed w/ all the 20+ that were energized by his campaign here in the 'OC'. I was thinking 'the next wave of democrats is stepping up'. But there has been no delivery.

This country has suffered under a complete lack of leadership for way too long. It is evident by the unraveling of the economy, education, environmental controls, jobs, civil rights - you know the list. I was hoping Obama would be the leader we so desperately need. I am soooooo despairingly disappointed he is not a leader.

He ran one hell of a campaign though - tragically, he has no leadership skills.

[No Elephants]

145. If you're under 40, Obama looked like a liberal.

[No Elephants]

144. Hillary, First Lady of the DLC, would not have been any better than Obama.

[mainer]

27. The Dutch: mandates without public option

I've been told that they simply regulate the health insurance companies like a utility, setting prices, holding down costs.

So it CAN work.

Mandates are necessary. But it has to be matched with adequate control of the health insurers.

[optimator]

28. yes , fascism "works"

doesn't mean it is right.
I will never, ever support mandates for any reason, even if there was a robust public option.

[comtec]

119. Actually it IS socialism

As it is not run away beneficial to the INS companies who are allowed to exist by her grace the queen's(remember we are still technically a monarchy here)
next the companies are TOLD how much profit they are allowed to make and god help them if they deny anyone a medically need proceedure

the problem here are the doctors are fucking lazy !

Finally if you are too poor the government PAYS your premium for you
and you MUST be covered. it is actually ILLIGAL to deny coverage to anyone!

Trust me if you had this system you'd be happy

btw I pay 120 euros a month and that is solid gold coverage which includes some alternative methods, massage therapy etc
the only thing that nedic falls down onimho is proper mental care but that's a social thing
fucking calvanists!

[mainer]

123. Every Dutch person I've spoken to is happy with it

And the numbers I've heard were about 11 to 130 Euros a month. MANDATED. (although as you mentioned, the poor get their premium paid for)

I suspect that Obama is thinking the Dutch system might be what we'll end up with.

I don't know why everyone's so upset with mandates -- it's what Social Security is all about, isn't it? And property taxes to support schools? And Medicare contributions?

As long as we can regulate the insurance companies (as the Dutch do) this COULD work.

[Enthusiast]

120. I would be happy with

mandates if there were subsidies and price controls.

[depakid]

43. Neither the states nor the federal government are capable of responsible regulation

American agencies set up to do so end up "captured" by the entities and moneyed interest groups that they're ostensibly charged with regulating.

If this weren't the indelible pattern, a public utility model might actually work.

[closeupready]

46. Reason being that almost in every case, there's a revolving door between the agency and the industry

so that for those who serve on the agency in a manner which pleases the industry, there are lucrative, cushy 'make-work' positions later on reserved for them for when they 'retire' from public service.

[depakid]

49. That and the fact that America lacks accountability mechanisms capable of dealing with corruption

What passes for routine, everyday behavior in American government and politics would land people in prison in many western nations- or would cause a huge public outcry, as we saw with the British parliament earlier this year.

[Hissyspit]

48. Or. We could come up with a universal single-payer system that doesn't require mandates.

[Amonester]

91. Yes. And it would require an Income Tax Increase On The wealthy.

Well, I Hope (only) On The Wealthy.

Yes We Can.

[No Elephants]

146. With single payer, you need mandates.

[sendero]

156. Any universal system will..

... require funding and that funding will have to be either taxes or premiums.

Folks getting all bent about the "mandates" truly don't understand reality.

Young healthy people have to be forced to pay into the system when they are young so that their care is funded when they are older. Of course, if such a system is run anything like SS, they the money is likely to be tossed into the general revenue fund and messed up as usual.

It's not the mandates that are the problem with this bill, it is paying them to bloated enterprises that flush 25-77 cents of every health care dollar down the drain, THAT is the problem.

[Jackpine Radical]

74. America has such a wonderful history of managing the orporations, ya know...

Oil companies, broadcast companies, banks, WalMart, drug companies, phone companies, power companies, cable companies, the auto industry, food & big agra, you name it and the gubmint's got 'em all sewed up tight as a drum and acting in the public interest. Hard to see how they can even make a profit with all those regulators breathing down their necks.

FUCK!

[No Elephants]

141. Maybe it CAN work, but not the way the Senate has it drafted. It is just another transfer of wealth

from the American consumer and taxpayer. This time, though, the transferees do not even need the money. They've already made themselves obscenely rich by overcharging and letting people die for years and years.

[fascisthunter]

30. Um... there Never was a FIGHT

it was all Kabuki Theatre.

[valerief]

33. Yep, our govt hates America. No sarcasm here. nt

[wisteria]

34. One poll? And, a progressive one at that. Sorry, I still support the HC bill and Pres. Obama.

Those of you who are trying kill this bill will regret it. Think this through. We may never have this opportunity to help so many uninsured for a very, very long time.
And, I would think most voters don't even know enough about the bill to have an accurate point of view on either the public option or mandates.

[Laelth]

44. People understand mandates very clearly, I think.

And I don't buy the "this is the last chance" argument. The current system is unsustainable, and everyone knows it. Change will come, eventually, UNLESS we pass the disastrous bill that's currently on the table.

California will probably pass single-payer on its own in 2011. All they need is a Democratic Governor. The legislature has already passed the bill. Schwarzenegger vetoed it. Once California has single-payer, most (if not all) states will follow suit.

It's likely that if we pass a new law now, the new law will preempt single-payer, i.e. the Federal law will preempt state law and prevent states from enacting a single-payer system.

THIS is what the health insurance companies fear. THIS is what brought them to the bargaining table. THIS is why they are not fighting Obama's tepid reforms, and THIS is why it is extremely important that we do not pass any health insurance reform bill this year.

Let's not settle for a bail-out of the health insurance industry. Let's insist on the eradication of it. In all likelihood, California will lead the way in 2011 ... if we can just give them time.

Canada got its single-payer system one province at a time. That seems to be the way it will have to happen in the U.S.

:dem:

-Laelth

[katkat]

62. wisteria

I don't think driving uninsured people into bankruptcy is what I would consider helping them.

[rpannier]

118. A few weeks ago electoralvote.com ran a 'poll of polls'

Their findings averaged at about 46% favored the health care bil -- that was when the rumors were there would be a buy in
But that 60% (average) favored the public option

[No Elephants]

149. The number of Americans favoring a strong public option used to be much higher than 60%.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-j-zaremski/americans-overwhelmingly_b_360560.html

Of course, that was before a very popular President told America that the public option was no big deal.

[No Elephants]

142. Maybe, but I bet Dr. Dean knows enough about the bill to form an educated opinion.

And I bet you don't know the bill a hundredth as well as he does.

Also, it is not a progressive poll. Progressives commissioned it, but did not conduct it. And the results were "overwhelming.' Further, your implication that a poll is less reliable if progressive, rather than conservative, is totally unfounded.

[Jack Rabbit]

36. Wow, what a surprise

Now, if we are going to start over, let's start with Medicare for All. If the heath insurance industry rackets complain that they'll be put out of business, then oh, well . . . their business is giving us the business.

If the teabaggers say we're not appreciative enough of America's producers, we well tell them how wrong they are. We want to make it easier for the producers to unionize.

If the insurance company owners and the teabaggers want to "go John Galt," well, don't let the door hit you on the way out, guys.

[Laelth]

39. Let us hope that our Democratic leaders see this poll and heed its message.

Passing the individual mandate will be a disaster for the Democratic Party.

:dem:

-Laelth

[DebbieCDC]

41. They don't get it on Obama v. LIE-berman

LIE-berman was Obama's mentor in the Senate

Obama supported LIE-berman over Ned Lamont

LIE-berman is doing the WH's bidding on this bill, IMHO

[Laelth]

45. I suspect you are absolutely correct. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Goldstein1984]

94. How stupid

not to have thought of that.

It makes a lot of sense. I can imagine a meeting--Just President Obama, Senator Lieberman, a few drinks and a table full of insurance executives. Joe agrees to be the bad guy...

Good theater.

[wordpix]

155. the WH should get this message: Lie-man is OUT in 2012

We in CT are REALLY angry over his betrayals. People who were upset about his support of Bushco are now raging mad and vowing to work actively to get rid of him once and for all. I'm just one of them.

[LaPera]

47. "Didn't fight hard enough" how about.... NOT AT ALL!!

Obama just wants a big photo-op with the signing of ANY bill, a weak bill, doesn't matter to him or Rahm.

Then, after the photo-op signing, Obama/Rahm want to parade the weak, watered down bill as their center piece for Obama's State of the Union Address next month....

And at the State of the Union Address Obama will announce that this weak watered down bill is, health care "REFORM"...What bullshit!

Obama obviously doesn't give a shit that the bill will give even more money (and more of our tax dollars) to the insurance corporations (it's why insurance corporation stocks are skyrocketing) and the bill gives just a few things to consumers WITHOUT a desperately needed Public Option!!

[rateyes]

53. Wonder if any one will dare yell out "you lie" at the SOTU address.

[WorkingClassDemocrat]

114. Me

I'll be in my recliner watching the lying prick that I voted for and saying any number of crude and ineffectual remarks. As if anyone really cares.

[DailyGrind51]

56. And I don't want to hear about how Obama is "playing chess", either!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. Look at David Brooks' column, too, for an interesting counterpoint to Krugman

Some of the people who are angry at him for opposing the Senate bill seem uninformed. They are in desperate circumstances and think that the bill will actually help them soon. In other words, they think it's functionally equivalent to a single-payer system, something that will bail them out in the near future.

The people who oppose the bill are the ones who actually know something about it, the ones whose understanding goes beyond, "Yay Dems! Boo Lieberman!"

For both Krugman and Brooks, the reaction to the Senate bill is about as negative as the reaction to the bankster bailout.

[babsbunny]

59. Voters Revolt! Deliver the message to your Senator now

http://democracyforamerica.com/activities/268

[Renew Deal]

60. Revolt? I have an idea. They should grab some teabags and tape them to their hats!

:D

[AzNick]

64. Proof that the democrats are blowing it.... nt

[Jamastiene]

66. Let them build hundreds of prisons, house, cloth, and feed ALL of us...

and provide our medical care. They'll wish they had just provided Universal Health Care after they get done paying for that.

I'll be in my cell reading Swish Family Robinson for the hundredth time, happily.

[grahamhgreen]

67. Amazing how I feel like we have to fight the powers that be again....

[AusDem]

69. make those f*ckers FILIBUSTER!!!!!!!!!

put in a strong bill, and make those twits stand up there and follow through with their threats. DO IT

[xchrom]

70. Recommend

[David Zephyr]

71. K&R. Good news. We need to have even better poll numbers.

Pressure.

[anachro1]

77. Why

does this little man wield so much power?

First, Olympia Snowe got a nice rimjob from the dems, now they gotta blow Joe?
Who exactly won the election?

[tavalon]

113. It wasn't us, that's for sure.

[katty]

78. he didn't fight him at all

[judesedit]

80. I'd say it's time for a "signing statement" from Obama, adding whatever he wants to the bill

And remember this poll includes only landline users.

[No Elephants]

147. Just what we need, another unconstitutional signing statement. No thanks.

[girl gone mad]

81. Like I've been saying all along, the DLC is a fringe group.

So-called "centrists" actually reside on the political margins.

[alp227]

83. Sorry, Mr. President. Sucking it up doesn't help you keep votes for 2012

I can't wait to see a third party candidate jack some Democratic/Republican voters in the next presidential election given that both parties have been unable to work out this whole health care reform thing.

[DesertFlower]

86. i just wish obama would have said

from the beginning that he would not sign a bill that did not contain a public option.

[humblebum]

97. If he had just maintained a presidential boldness by staying on

Congress and constantly taking his case to the public through primetime broadcasts, he would have been able to counteract those who want to see no plan. Oh well.

[RoccoR5955]

95. K & R n/t

[rhett o rick]

98. The Pres cant force people to buy insurance. It wont happen. It will be an issue that all Americans

will resist. NO MANDATE WITHOUT A STRONG PUBLIC OPTION.

[No Elephants]

148. You just get taxed more heavily if you don't buy insurance. And, if you

fail to pay all the taxes you owe, the IRS has lots of remedies--interest, penalties, seizure, jail time.

[rhett o rick]

151. Let's say I dont have a job and the bank owns my house. What can they do to me?

Jail time? Yeah, lock up 40,000 Americans for failure to buy insurance.

[myrna minx]

99. K&R n/t

[madrchsod]

100. if they are going to garnish wages then give us medicare

they will take 80 per month out of my social security to pay my medicare and i won`t complain...well if they don`t fuck us over on medicare too.

fucking thieves

[earcandle]

101. A government for the people and by the people is not what we got. Why are we training police all

over the world?  Anybody figure that one out?  That is where
our money is going.

I think we need to rethink this democracy and make sure it
works. 

Or just go independent.  Refuse to be on payroll.  Only be a
contractor.
Use preventative ways to stay healthy and visit a doctor once
a year for a physical.

Fuck those asswholes that are not honoring our hard work.  
Or making us jobless, powerless, and underpaid. 

[beardown]

102. Let Obama be Obama

Folks. Obama is black. Not a black liberal. Obama was never a liberal or progressive. I've been trying to inform folks of this since the primaries. He's to the right of both Clintons. It doesn't mean that he isn't several time better than Bush, but that was his main appeal.

Then he started veering right by surrounding himself with wall street and supply siders and former Bush military types.

He's not going to fight for a health care system that he's not ideologically committed to. He, as Clinton, takes the liberals for granted and counts on the repubs running ever more radical candidates to keep us voting for the lesser of evils.

Congratulations. You've got your lesser of evils and he's thrown your butts to the trash while he enriches the insurance and the banking and the surge into yet another country. I voted for him, but I had no doubts that he'd do a "Clinton" on you while many of the faithful continued to complain about Nader and Dennis and other real democrats. Scratch that. Real former democrats.

If we don't take to the meeting rooms and mailing campaigns the same way that the racist, eugenics driven teabagger recently did, the game is over until things get so bad that the average American voter is on a par with his 1932 counterpart.

[WorkingClassDemocrat]

115. Hear! Hear! nt

[saigon68]

127. Well put I totally agree with you

Especially the part about keeping the 2 Bush Bots, Industrial-complex Gates and his side kick Vicelord Gen McKrazy (The Democratizer of Afghan-Nam)

[New Dawn]

104. FUCK the Fascist "Individual Mandate"!

[autorank]

105. Excellent info k*r

This reaction was there from a month or two before the "big debate." 65% wanted a government provided insurance program like Medicare as a choice. That was a combination of single payer/public option. The terms used leading up to today lead people to believe that's exactly what they'd get. However, if people listened carefully to the president's speech on this subject, we're exactly where he was at that time. It's an excellent speech, rhetorically complex, but it's also clear what was on the agenda. Sept. 10 http://tinyurl.com/pxtlrh

[orbitalman]

106. Count me in - for the REVOLT. n/t

[HDPaulG]

109. NoBama.....2012

Weak weak weak...

It shows that his mind set is compromise and NOT leadership. He was a State Illinois Senator and US Senator from Illinois...looking for compromise on issues to pass into law. As POTUS...He is suppose to LEAD, and set the agenga...

I am no longer supporting him in discussions and arguements...Neither are my disappointed membership...And upset middle of the road Dems...aka.."Indepedent's"

As my children say...'FAIL'

[tavalon]

111. Poll shows an overwhelming number of Americans believe water is wet

This administration is so simultaneously deaf and addicted to their fucking polls. Which way is the wind blowing today, President Obama?

[WorkingClassDemocrat]

116. Seems to me the White House has been ignoring the polls

Since this debate started. The public option has been clearly the preference of the majority of the people. Even Obama criticized the Individual Mandate, before he was elected. We've been punked. Someone send out for a large tube of K-Y.

[HDPaulG]

117. A talented 'orator' promised HOPE to United State's....

For affordable Health Care for all, an enriched middle class, decreased poverty, improved education funding, easier Union organizing ...And we got Bailouts for bank's and corporations...And INCREASING Corporate Welfare...NoBama !!! He's the Tiger Wood's of POTUS..._cking supporter's...

[tavalon]

121. Actually, they are watching them closely

You can tell by how many trial balloons they send up and then retract. They are trying to serve their real masters while preserving their electability. But when push comes to shove, they serve Wall Street not Main Street. Polls or no polls.

I fell in love with Obama because of his magnificent speeches. I somehow missed that he doesn't know how to lead or rather doesn't care to buck the status quo. Too bad, he could have been great if his actions had only matched his rhetoric.

[Johnny ramone]

125. Yep,same here.

I fell in love with Obama for the same reasons and now I feel like he cheated on me. :(

[SlavesandBulldozers]

135. that's what i've been thinking about a lot.

The orator vs. the executive.

He's not a good orator because of the delivery (as the wingnuts claim). He's a good orator primarily because of the content. The fact that he has spoken about the public option and even single payer being the important components of reform, then offers no action in that direction - is a good sign that he knows what's popular but either doesn't have the will or the desire.

[tavalon]

152. Yeah, he talks like a Leo but he doesn't walk like a Leo

[mainer]

124. Mandates, in and of themselves, are NOT BAD

How did we get Social Security to work? Mandates.
Medicare? Mandates

These work because the pool of resources to draw from is larger, spreading risk.

A mandated health care contribution is simply like another tax -- only it goes to pay for your healthcare.

The real challenge is how do we regulate insurance company profits. That's why I mention the Dutch system, which treats health insurance like a utility, with strict regulations on profits and requirements that everyone be covered. And they only pay 120 Euros a month -- MANDATED -- unless you're too poor, in which case the government pays your premium.

But it still goes through a private insurer.

[wordpix]

132. there's a big diff when you're mandated to pay for Medicare & SS since they're gov-run whereas

mandated to pay to private BigInsurance is quite another thing.

[Cleobulus]

153. Uhm, you pay into ONE pool with Social Security and Medicare, not the hundreds of thousands...

that are individual PRIVATE insurance companies. Stop making this stupid ass comparison.

[natrat]

128. the government is owned by a right wing corporate junta

this obama puppet is simply playing his part in running the party over a cliff, the midterms will be a disaster then they really will accelerate all this right wing legislation

[Odin2005]

136. The state has no right to force me to buy the product of a corporation.

The mandate is FASCISM, it makes us SERFS of the insurance companies.

[Doctor_J]

137. I am amazed that such a smooth campaigner didn't realize what a debacle

this would be. Say hi to Speaker Boner

[QC]

157. They probably figure Obama can make anoher of those pretty speeches

and fix everything right up. It always worked before.