Chavez says US spy plane violated Venezuela's airspace, tells military to shoot down others

[ChangoLoa]

Source: AP

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) An unmanned U.S. spy plane recently violated Venezuela's airspace and the military has been ordered to shoot down any such aircraft if it happens again, President Hugo Chavez said Sunday.

Speaking during his weekly television and radio program, Chavez said the aircraft overflew a Venezuelan military base in the western state of Zulia after taking off from neighboring Colombia. He did not elaborate, but suggested the plane was being used for espionage.

"These are the Yankees. They are entering Venezuela," he said.

"I've ordered them to be shot down," Chavez said of the aircraft. "We cannot permit this."

Read more: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-lt-venezuela-us-colombia,0,1989616.story?track=rss

[MrSlayer]

1. If true it would be hard to blame him.

Wouldn't we do likewise?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

2. Take a number, Hugo

We have two wars going right now, no resources to fight another.

But going to war with you is very important to us, so please take a number, and we will attack you as forces become available.

:hi:

[cowcommander]

3. WTF? Why would we even have spy planes there?

[chandler2]

4. For SPYING. nt

[sabbat hunter]

5. why

when we have satellites that can do the same thing?

Either Chavez is being paranoid or he is lying.

[OregonBlue]

6. More likely Blackwater working for the Columbian military. We know Blackwater was running the drones

that we're using in Pakistan. My guess, our government is now run by Blackwater, Dynacorps, etc and they do whatever they want.

[Goldstein1984]

8. or he has been paying attention

Chavez has every right to be paranoid.

We backed a coup attempt against him in 2002.

If we attack Venezuela, or support a proxy attack, I'm buying Venezuelan war bonds.

[dgibby]

43. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you.

Of course, if you've already survived one attempted coup, maybe you're not paranoid, but just a realist!:evilgrin:

[Wilms]

13. One more possibility, hunter. Perhaps you needed to hit wiki or google.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_Sentry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RQ-4_Global_Hawk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-1_Predator

Perhaps there are more, but the point is made.

Are you another one of those here so blinded by their distaste of a democratically elected progressive that they make such obviously ill-informed comments?

It's cultish.

[New Dawn]

14. Spy planes are still used.

Satellites did not make them obsolete.

[boppers]

21. +1 Satellites shoot poorly through clouds.

They also don't have the same level of resolution, or abilities to "camp" on a target for hours.

[caraher]

27. Satellites have significant limitations

Drone get up close and personal and can loiter, rather than whizzing past

[unkachuck]

35. ....and they have Hellfire missiles....n/t

[RedCloud]

32. Bingo! We are never spoon fed a bunch of horse shit, are we?

We are a fucking EMPIRE. We have been one for over 100 years yet we cannot say that!

[happyslug]

145. So, Rome ALWAYS called itself a REPUBLIC

Roman History is often broken into five time periods, First is the legendary time period of roughly pre-300 BC, this is the the time period of Horatio at the Bridge, Cincinnatius and the original Brutus. This included the Etruscan kings of Rome AND the republic that replaced them. This includes the time period when the working class of Rome, literally took a hike and started to build a new City when the Ruling upper Class ignored their needs and wants (The Ruling Class relented and gave into the demands of the Workers/Peasants). We know this time period only from later accounts, but it set the formula of the Roman Republic even during the period of the Classical Roman Republic.

The Second Period is the Classical Republic. This starts with Pyrrhus's attack on Italy and his defeat by the Roman Army and ends with Caesar. Plutarch catches this period quite well, through you have to be careful Plutarch wrote in the First Imperial period NOT the actual Republican Period. In the later stages of the Republic This is the period where Rome transformed from a Republic into an Empire. The defeat of Hannibal occurred during this period, and within a generation there was no one in Europe that could hope to defeat the Roman Army. This lead to a situation, Rome was tyrannical outside of Italy (and even in regards to non-Roman Italy) AND increasing Tyrannical inside Roman Italy (The old saying, Tyranny abroad leads to Tyranny at home describe this post third Punic War to Caesar time period better then any other). The real end of the Republic occurred when Marius "Reformed" the Roman Army, converting it from a General Militia that had defeated Hannibal to a Mercenary Army paid by the Senator that raised the Legion. The reason for the reform? The Militia Army would NOT go to war that did NOT benefit Rome as a whole, just benefited the Senate Class. A Mercenary Army would do what its paymasters wanted it to do. Marius ended up being one of its first victims, being killed by Sulla in 86 BC when Sulla took his Mercenary Army and marched on Rome and established himself as the first Dictator of Rome (Dictator in the Modern Sense of the world NOT the pre-Sulla Roman Republic Definition).

The lives of Romans and Greeks see Plutarch:
http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/index-Plutarch.html
More on the Plebeian Council, the People's Assembly of the Roman Republic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plebeian_Council
The Marian reforms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms
Maius:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Marius
Sulla:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulla

This site is a good site, but makes the mistake of saying the State provided the arms, that is incorrect, the Legionary commander provided the arms and the pay. This is what differed the post-reform Legions from the pre-reform legions. The later were made up of the people, the post reform legions were loyal to their paymaster not the people nor the state of Rome itself. The reforms of Marius would be the may-stay of the Roman Army till Diocletian, who only modified them slightly (Augustus made a major change converting the land grant to one from in Italy to one on the Frontier). Heraclitus would make a major change, but in the nature of how the troops were paid (See more below).

Augustus Caesar kept the fronts of a Republic while he ruled (Even keeping the Assembly of Tribes or Plebeian Council, both names are used for the same group, where the people had a say but Tiberius eliminated even the Assembly under his rule). This is called the "Principate" to differ it from the earlier and later Roman periods. Rome still called itself a Republic, but nonetheless it was an Empire (The rights of the Poor declined during this period, even in the late Republic it was imposable to rip a poor person for a crime, by the 200 AD such riping were common. The chief characteristic of the Principate was that the Emperor held several offices that previously been held by different people, The Emperor was the High Priest of Rome (And this controlled the flow if information to the people, remember we are talking of an era BEFORE the press thus most information was spread through the religious community and thus WHY it had to be under the control of the Emperor), the First Senator (This controlled the agenda of the Senate), and the Tribune of the people (and thus had the right to veto ANY law passed by the Senate), he also had the right to name all judges AND the commander of all of the Legions (Each Legion was commanded by a "Ducus", that was the actual commander in the days of the Republic, but under the Principate that was the Emperor, his "Legate" or lieutenant was in actual command, but subject to removal by the Emperor at any time). Technically the Emperor was just the First among Equals, in relative Augustus and his successors had more power then anyone before or afterward within the Roman Empire.

For more on the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principate

The Principate ended during the Third Century when the empire almost collapsed. The "Dominate" breathed life back into the body when in radically reformed the Republic (keeping the name) but the Emperor was no longer the "first among equals" but the Supreme Ruler of the World, he still did NOT claim to be a King, but since he was Emperor all Kings were below him (A reversal of the Republican position that all Kings of Rome were to be avoided, now you did not need a king for the Emperor was superior to ALL and ANY king). Now one of the characteristic of the Dominate was that people of the Empire no longer considered themselves under the Tyranny of Rome, but saw themselves as Roman Citizens. Even Rome stop referring to the Empire as subject states but called the whole Empire "Romania" i.e. the Country of Rome (This name survives in the name of Modern Romania, Latin Speaking people in Eastern Europe and even in the Turkish name for the lands of Greece, "Rumlia" and even in the modern Greek Name for the Greek Language, "Romatic"). One of the biggest changes during the Dominate over the Principate was that the Legion more or less disappears (The Legion seems to survived as to the name of the units, but the Legion stops being the chief organizational unit and linger on in the Political wing of the empire. Remember under the Republic and the Principate only former Consuls, i.e. former heads of the Senate, could be commanders of Legions. Under Augustus the actual head of each Legion was Augustus and his successors, but even under the Republic the Legion had lieutenant Commanders, often called Legates who were just Senators not Proconsuls (Pro is latin for "Ex", thus proconsul is an ex-consul, both Proconsuls and Legates were Senators, the former a top Senator the later any Senator). The head of each Legion remained a Senator continued till the Legions start to disappear under Diocletian. In many ways this was as important as the later adoption of Christianity, for the Christian Church was the only organization that had Churches throughout the Empire (The Pagan Religions tended to be regional) and thus by adopting Christianity the Emperor had access to the Christian pulpit to spread any news he wanted the Roman People of Romania to hear. These three Changes, the growing adoption of the symbol of a Ruler above the people (as oppose to the earlier concept of the first among equal), the changes in the legions separating the legions completely from the Senate and the adopting of Christianity and its Superior network of Communications, differs the later empire from the earlier empire. This also reflected the need of the Emperor to emphasis their superiority over anyone else, a sign more of a real decline in power and a desire to hold onto whatever power one had then a sign of any increase in power of the Emperor.

For more on the Dominate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Late_Roman_Empire

The fourth and last period of the Roman Empire is now called the Byzantine Empire (a term NEVER used by the Romans themselves, even after the Empire stopped speaking Latin around 620 AD and no longer had any hope or even thought of retaking Rome). Some Historians like to use Justinian assent to the throne as the start of the Fourth Period, but Justinian still ate Roman Style, still feed the people of his capital off Egyptian Bread, and dressed in the style of the later empire. It is at this time the term legions stopped being use, but that reflects more the relative that had existed since Constantine then any real change (Justinian also abolished the last pagan temples in Roman Territory, but the earlier abolishments seems to be more tied in with the Imperial need for the Gold in the Richer Pagan Temples then any real desire to abolish paganism). The better start is the Rule of Heraclius, who either adopted or completed military reforms that transformed the former full time mercenary Roman Armies into units tied in with the land (i.e. if you own land you had a military duty, failed to do the duty, you lost your land if this sounds like the heart of Medieval Feudalism you are right, but it was a way to pay for an army capable of offensive operations when you had a need for a large army AND no cash to pay for one). This reforms lead to what is called the Thematic system (of more see below). This fourth period lasted till the Battle of Mazikurt in 1071 AD, when what it still called the Roman Republic went into terminal decline. The Crusades saved it for a time period, but then produced the Fourth Crusades which saw the sacking of Constantinople and the end of this last period of Roman Rule (You then had the Latin Empire, which lasted only 70 or so years, the Restoration of the Greek Empire, but it lasted only another 200 years, both poor echos of Western Europe of the same time period AND the Roman Empire of Heraclius onward). Thus the only Crusade ever condemned by the Pope at the time of the Crusade was the real end of the Roman Empire. For the first time since the Gauls took Rome in 387 BC the Roman Capital feel to an attacker (The Capital of Rome had long been transferred to Constantinople when Rome fell to the Goths in 410 AD, thus 1204 AD is the first time a Roman Capital was taken since 387 BC).

Please note till the day Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1453, what we called the Roman Empire (and later the Byzantine Empire) called itself the Roman Republic. Yes, the name of the Roman Republic survived and was used for almost 1500 years after it had long become an empire. The same today of the US, we call ourself a Republic but like the Roman Republic of 107 BC till 1453 we have become an Empire.

Heraclius:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

More on the Thematic system, finalized under Heraclius:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_administrative_unit)

Battle of Mazikurt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manzikert

[denem]

158. Excellent. Many thanks.

[jmowreader]

51. Satellites are very limited

I think Chavez is neither paranoid nor lying.

[Pavulon]

55. The SR-71 was never shot down by the USSR. Not in use

but if it was a wanker like hugo is not a real threat.

[boppers]

103. We get it. SR-71 went well.

U2, not so much.

[Pavulon]

109. Yep, that is why we stopped flying it over the USSR

we no longer operate the F100 or F105.

[Marthian]

104. Wanker?

Mirror, please. Pass it to Pavulon.

[Pavulon]

108. Yes, not licking the jam from between che hugo's toes

annoys some folks here. I have a standing bet with his groupies, if he leaves office alive or in a peaceful transition of power (not putin style) they get a bottle of french grand cru wine. There are 4 people on that list. That comment is a few years old. Not worried about having to buy a case of anything yet.

Like I said, his words are hollow, he is intentionally chasing his tail for political reasons.

[Ter]

167. The SR-71 is slow as hell and ancient technology

Compared to Project Aurora (SR-91). The government denies it exists, but it does. Mach 10 baby!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_%28aircraft%29

[jaksavage]

122. Or we are

antagonizing him.

[hack89]

17. Keeping track of drug cartels - FARC as well I would imagine. nt

[Peace Patriot]

23. The US "war on drugs" is a corrupt, murderous, failed "war" that benefits only the war profiteers

and the bigger criminal enterprises (like the Colombian government), with no reduction in illicit drug traffic except in the countries that have rejected this US militarization excuse. And the FARC have been devastated by the Colombian military and are none of our goddamned business anyway. This is a civil war that has been going on for 40+ years. It is NOT our problem.

Recently, tens of thousands of mostly poor peasant farmers have been pouring over the borders into Venezuela and Ecuador, mostly fleeing the Colombian military and its closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads, and its toxic pesticide spraying, creating an enormous refugee problem for these neighboring countries, which, unlike Colombia, have social justice policies that require them to feed and house refugees and provide medical care and farmland or jobs. Human rights groups have estimated that there are 2 to 3 million displaced peasants within Colombia--who have been driven off their lands to free these areas for the big, protected drug lords, for Monsanto, Chiquita, et al, and for US/Colombian military maneuvers. It is the second largest crisis of displaced people in the world. The US is exacerbating these and even worse human rights violations by supporting the Colombian government and military no matter what they do. They have slaughtered thousands of union leaders and others--and we are larding them with $6 BILLION in military aid, and the Pentagon is plotting a huge US military escalation in Colombia, to join them in slaughtering leftists and likely invading Venezuela, and slaughtering Venezuelans as well, and stealing their oil.

US policies in Latin America are WRONG, WRONG, **WRONG**! We are on the WRONG SIDE everywhere you look. We are supporting the BAD GUYS. And if we would just withdraw and mind our own business, Latin Americans are perfectly capable of helping Colombia to end its civil war and create a good and just and democratic government. In fact, Latin Americans are extremely talented at creating democracy out of the ashes of military dictatorships and rightwing juntas. They are also developing SANE drug policies, which we should have done long ago. They can run their own affairs. What the hell are we doing planning SEVEN new US military bases in Colombia, with NO LIMIT on US troops and 'contractors'? What. are. we. DOING?

[hack89]

24. Ok - I was just answering a question. nt

[Zorro]

25. You keep yammering on and on about "SEVEN new US bases in Colombia"

despite the FACT that THAT'S NOT THE TRUTH.

Why do you continue to promote this LIE?

[Peace Patriot]

34. I don't "yammer." I read, and absorb and analyze what I read.

All of these say "seven" or "at least seven" bases...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1915825,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/anger-america-colombia-bases-deal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8334045.stm
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0911/S00545.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/08/07-6
http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-11-11/colombia-us-military-base.html
http://www.chavezcode.com/2009/12/us-military-aggression-against.html
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/official-us-air-force-document-reveals-the-true-intentions-behind-the-us-colombia-military-agreement-by-eva-golinger/
(the above names the installations mentioned in the agreement: "...seven military installations in Palanquero, Malambo, Tolemaida, Larandia, Apíay, Cartagena and Málaga.")
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/washington-alters-us-air-force-document-to-hide-intentions-behind-military-accord-with-colombia-by-eva-golinger/
(the above is also interesting because it points to deceit by the US as to its true intentions)

[boppers]

39. Those aren't US bases. They're Columbian bases.

The agreement is to allow US forces onto, and use of, the bases, as needed.

Calling them US bases is basically a propaganda trick, definitely silver/grey, where a truthful fact is distorted to make an argument.

[Wilms]

46. Arguably, calling them Columbian bases is basically a propaganda trick.

US Military Aid to Colombia

Colombia has been one of the largest recipients of US military aid for well over a decade and the largest in the western hemisphere. Since 1994, AIUSA has called for a complete cut off of all US military aid until human rights conditions improve and impunity is tackled. Yet torture, massacres, "disappearances" and killings of non-combatants are widespread and collusion between the armed forces and paramilitary groups continues to this day. In 2006, US assistance to Colombia amounted to an estimated $728 million, approximately 80% of which was military and police assistance.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/colombia/us-military-aid-to-colombia/page.do?id=1101863

[boppers]

76. Well, they're on Columbian land, primarily used by Columbian troops...

...if your contention is that the US military aid to Columbia means that they're considered US bases, then the US also arguably has bases in:
http://www.state.gov/t/pm/c17570.htm

... it's a huge list.

[Wilms]

79. It's the aggregate, obviously.

Our history in L.A., oil, SOA, SouthCom directives, coups, assassination.

Like that.


That's quite a link. And the list there does underscore the point made above about the US as empire and the inability for too many to acknowledge it.

[boppers]

82. It's a form of pocketbook diplomacy.

We pay governments around the world... to not go to war.

We pay them with military aid... to not go to war?

*twitch*

I guess it's sort of worked, in that massive world wars, and large scale continental wars have basically stopped, but the tiny wars seem to keep going and going and going....

Gee, I wonder why?

[Wilms]

86. Pretty large jump you make.

Has Central America been war free? Are there any political stability or human rights issues in South America over the last 60 years?

Maybe it's just a perspective thing. You got an idea that US policy has been effective in leading to a more peaceful world. I see the excesses of capitalism, environmental destruction, human rights violations of the most serious kind, coups, assassinations...everything but unabashed slavery.

What makes you and I so different?

[boppers]

92. 20+ million people were killed on the eastern front in WWII.

We aren't that different, in some ways.

Both of us want less death, do we not?

Or are you the type who accepts death, as a means to an end?

[Wilms]

95. I think I hear you.

But I feel it's an unacceptable, if not a false choice.

And we're really talking more an Eastern Europe rather than a Central/South American dynamic with regard to World War anyway. Is there anywhere near the ethnic strife, for example. It's really mostly about oil, water, cocaine, and banana republicanism.

[boppers]

97. Joos= Oligarchs.

(mis-spellings intentional)

Demonize those that "have", to rally the have-nots.

We've seen this before. We know how it ends.

[Wilms]

100. That, to me, is specious. n/t

[boppers]

102. Small time leaders will always use power to rally folks and gain power.

I think of it as a failing of humanity.

Even the smallest leader wants to lead more, be more, command more.

[Peace Patriot]

105. I wonder how old you are, Boppers. You remember Vietnam?

Those aren't US bases. They're South Vietnamese bases.

That's not an escalation of US troops. That's "just a few military advisers."

Same old lies.

The US is using Colombia as a client state and proxy army, just as it used South Vietnam as the front for a US war. This recently signed agreement contains NO LIMITS of the number of US troops and "contractors" who can be deployed to Colombia, and thus creates the mechanism for instant, massive escalation. The US relationship with South Vietnam was exactly the same. The only difference I see is that the Colombian military--funded with $6 BILLION in US tax dollars, and with US military "advisers" already in-country training the Colombian military and coordinating its maneuvers with the US "Southern Command" (and possibly aiding and abetting its many crimes)-- is likely more competent (if you want to call it that--more efficient killers) and more motivated than the South Vietnamese army was, and may therefore do more of the fighting in a US proxy war against Venezuela.

This is why so many Latin American leaders are alarmed by the US/Colombia agreement--it makes no sense except as a mechanism for war. It is way over the top, as to violating Colombia's sovereignty, and creating a situation where the Pentagon is the command center for the Colombian military. Latin Americans know our history better than anybody. They know what this means. With Iran having been taken "off the table" (for various reasons, including that China and/or Russia might have come into it, on Iran's side), South America is the next US oil target.

Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, said that the newly reconstituted US 4th Fleet is "a threat to Brazil's oil." Everybody south of the border knows that it is a threat to Venezuela's. That is the Pentagon's goal--commandeering as much of South America's oil as it can net in, in this long-planned aggression against Venezuela.

[boppers]

149. What's the major supply line in from USSR/China to South America

Cold War is over.

[Peace Patriot]

107. I want an apology, Zorro. You called me a LIAR. I documented the SEVEN bases,

with articles by Time magazine, the BBC, the Guardian and other sources. They all say "SEVEN" or "AT LEAST SEVEN" bases, and one excellent researcher even names the SEVEN bases.

----------------

"You keep yammering on and on about 'SEVEN new US bases in Colombia'

despite the FACT that THAT'S NOT THE TRUTH.

Why do you continue to promote this LIE?"

--Zorro

-----------------

Take it back. YOU are the liar! YOU are the one promoting bullshit, goddamn, Pentagonspeak!

I am the one who backs up my statements with FACTS! I am the one telling the TRUTH! You just can't stand to read the truth, because you are so caught up in hatred and warmongering. So you call ME names and dismiss solid facts and good analysis as "yammering." You heap contempt on me, yet you can't answer THE DOCUMENTED FACTS.

Where's your answer to this? I'm waiting. You are one who lied. Not me. And you called me a liar.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

115. Those bases were preexisting and will remain under Columbian control. Zorro is technically correct

The US is paying to make improvements to them in return for being allowed to use them for counter drug operations. That is the plain text of the recent agreement.

That there may be secret codicils or handshake agreements is not known, but would not surprise anyone.

[Zorro]

146. Agreement allows access to Colombian bases, no new U.S. bases

U.S.-Colombia Defense Cooperation Agreement
Agreement allows access to Colombian bases, no new U.S. bases

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman
August 18, 2009

FACT SHEET

U.S.–Colombia Defense Cooperation Agreement

On August 14, 2009, the United States and Colombian governments reached provisional agreement ad referendum on a Defense Cooperation Agreement (DCA). The agreement is now undergoing final review in anticipation of signature.

The United States and Colombia enjoy a close and strategic bilateral relationship. The anticipated signing of the DCA (formally titled a Supplemental Agreement for Cooperation and Technical Assistance and Security, or SACTA) will deepen bilateral cooperation on security issues. The DCA will facilitate effective bilateral cooperation on security matters in Colombia, including narcotics production and trafficking, terrorism, illicit smuggling of all types, and humanitarian and natural disasters.

The DCA does not permit the establishment of any U.S. base in Colombia. It ensures continued U.S. access to specific agreed Colombian facilities in order to undertake mutually agreed upon activities within Colombia.

The agreement facilitates U.S. access to three Colombian air force bases, located at Palanquero, Apiay, and Malambo. The agreement also permits access to two naval bases and two army installations, and other Colombian military facilities if mutually agreed. All these military installations are, and will remain, under Colombian control. Command and control, administration, and security will continue to be handled by the Colombian armed forces. All activities conducted at or from these Colombian bases by the United States will take place only with the express prior approval of the Colombian government. The presence of U.S. personnel at these facilities would be on an as needed, and as mutually agreed upon, basis.

The DCA does not signal, anticipate, or authorize an increase in the presence of U.S. military or civilian personnel in Colombia.

The presence of U.S. military and associated personnel in Colombia is governed by statute. In October 2004, Congress authorized the permanent or temporary assignment of up to 800 U.S. military personnel and up to 600 U.S. civilian contractors. That cap will continue to be faithfully respected. In fact, in recent years the actual presence of such U.S. personnel has averaged half or less of the authorized number. Consistent with U.S. policy to nationalize U.S.-supported activities by turning them over to Colombian authorities, U.S. personnel presence has been in a gradual decline. It is the United States’ expectation and commitment that those trends will continue.

At a technical level, the DCA harmonizes and updates existing bilateral agreements, practices, and arrangements on security matters, and continues to ensure appropriate protections and status for U.S. personnel. Bilateral U.S.-Colombian engagement in the security sphere is governed by conditions set in a number of bilateral agreements, including the 1952 Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement, the 1962 General Agreement for Economic, Technical and Related Assistance, and related subsequent agreements in 1974, 2000, and 2004.

Read more: http://www.america.gov/st/texttrans-english/2009/August/20090819103035emffen0.665127.html#ixzz0aNcd0sNG


If you don't want to get busted for lying, then stop lying.

And don't try to spin this as about the number of bases; you've been hysterically shrieking that it's seven "new U.S. bases" in Colombia -- that only has credence with the Chavista fumesuckers who huff on Hugo's tailpipe.

[roody]

179. Making sure that we have the monopoly.

[JNelson6563]

7. Are we still fucking around with Venezuela?

WTF?

[bemildred]

10. There appears to be an effort being made to get something going with Venezuela.

My tentative hypothesis is that the object is to stave off any sort of reconciliation with Latin America in general and Chavez in particular. The phrase "Remember the Maine" comes to mind: http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/remember.html

Who the "we" is that is doing that seems unclear to me, though I would not be surprised to find that some elements of the US government are involved.

[EFerrari]

57. The state department is full of creepy guys.

Of course, maybe it always has been. lol

[ProgressiveProfessor]

144. Chavez seems to think so

[Goldstein1984]

9. What does Hugo Chavez have to be paranoid about?

Bay of Pigs (1961)
Chile (1973)
El Salvador - Support for Duarte Right Wing Junta (1979)
Iran Contra (1980s)
Haiti - Support for Baby Doc Duvalier (1980s)
Grenada - US Invasion (1983)
Venezuela (2002)
Honduras (2009)
The War on Drugs (1980 - present)
Columbia building a new military base near border with Venezuela after agreeing to use of Columbian bases by U.S.
Bush Doctrine of Preventive War
Demonization of democratically elected presidents because they are socialists.

[Vidar]

11. "Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" Viva Chavez!

[Goldstein1984]

16. He received a standing ovation from the representatives of

developing nations in Copenhagen.

I'm thinking the American empire is beginning to wear on people everywhere.

[Vidar]

36. I know & I love that.

[Goldstein1984]

56. People think Hugo Chavez is a goof

I think he's having fun.

He had me at "I smell sulfur."

"We" demonize him, then wonder why he distrusts us.

I wish there were more like Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales, and Manuel Zeleya.

G1984

[WriteDown]

111. I couldn't believe the way he called out China for refusing to negotiate...

He is amazing. :eyes:

[boppers]

22. Don't forget the 1992 coup attempt.

In 1992, a group of revolutionaries tried to overthrow the democratically elected government of Venezuela with a military coup. Chavez, I'm sure, remembers it quite well.

[jakefrep]

172. He's a third-world anti-democratic sleazebag with a well-earned target on his back

Of course he's paranoid.

[roody]

180. Did you come to the wrong website?

[Downwinder]

12. Do drones have to file flight plans? n/t

[jmowreader]

61. Only if they're flying in civil air corridors

Right now, the only one they do this with is the Air Force Global Hawk--which is fucking huge. Small airliner huge.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

15. Between the drug runners, the paramilitaries, the guerillas, and the increased Co/Vn tensions

I wouldn't be shocked if there were spy planes flying over. Nor am I particularly apt to condemn such moves.

[Peace Patriot]

18. The US just signed an agreement for SEVEN new US military bases in Colombia,

with NO LIMIT on the number of US troops and 'contractors' who can be deployed there, UNLIMITED diplomatic immunity for whatever US troops and 'contractors' do there, and US military use of all civilian airports and other facilities in Colombia--for "full spectrum military operations in the region" (--according to an Air Force document); just signed an agreement with Panama for two new US military bases; just secured the US military base and port facilities in Honduras (--a US base that was used to refuel the plane taking the elected president out of the country at gunpoint, back in June); the US Bushwhack regime reconstituted the US 4th Fleet in the Caribbean (mothballed since WW II) in summer '08; and Colombia just announced that they are going to establish a big new military base on the Guajira peninsula, which (if you look at a map) will clearly be a threat to Venezuela's coastal oil reserves and facilities.

When the Pentagon has completed these plans, they will have Venezuela's main oil region, in the north, adjacent to Colombia and the Caribbean, surrounded.

This is why Venezuela will not tolerate violation of its air space.

I have been following these developments for some time, and it is my belief that the Pentagon has a war plan based on two strategies that were tested out in 2008.

The first was a US bombing/raid on Ecuador's northern border, where Ecuador's main oil reserves and facilities are located, also adjacent to Colombia. In March 2008, ten 500 lb US "smart bombs" were dropped on a temporary FARC guerilla camp, just inside Ecuador's border--a camp which had been set up for the release of hostages--killing 25 sleeping people, including the FARC's chief hostage and peace negotiator. This bombing/raid nearly started a war between the US/Colombia and Ecuador/Venezuela, then and there. The incident set a precedent of pursuit of FARC guerillas over the border into neighboring countries, even if no "hot pursuit" was occurring. It also tested out coordination of Colombia and US forces.

The second test out of strategies was the US funding and instigation of a white separatist insurrection in Bolivia's gas/oil rich eastern provinces, in Sept 2008; their purpose was to secede from Bolivia and split off these gas-oil rich provinces of Bolivia into a fascist mini-state in control of Bolivia's main resources. Ecuador's president said, at the time, that there was a coordinated rightwing plot for using the secessionist strategy in three countries: Bolivia, Ecuador and Venezuela. Fascist politicians in the northern oil regions of Venezuela and Ecuador openly talk of secession. And Donald Rumsfeld alluded to this strategy in an op-ed in the Washington Post on 12/1/07, entitled, "The Smart Way to Defeat Tyrants Like Chavez."

Put these two strategies together with the South Vietnam-like US military build up in Colombia, and you have a war plan, as follows: The fascist secessionists within Venezuela's northern oil region (or Ecuador's), parading as "patriots" declare their "independence" and request US and Colombian military support for their "freedom fight." The US and Colombian militaries are thus "invited" into Venezuela (or Ecuador) for military operations. Simultaneously, the US manufactures a border incident with Venezuela (or Ecuador) in which US soldiers or 'contractors' are involved--perhaps using the excuse of the FARC--or, another front, a naval or air incident manufactured near Venezuela's oil coast.

The US war propaganda machine goes into high gear. They've already created their bogeyman in "dictator" Chavez (which, believe me, is as false as the WMDs that weren't in Iraq). The Colombia/US agreement (which was negotiated in secret and recently signed and leaked) permits immediate escalation of US forces in Colombia to whatever levels the Pentagon deems necessary. Congress of course agrees to whatever the Pentagon wants. It probably won't get as big as Vietnam, because they just don't have the "cannon fodder," but, on the other hand, the Colombian military is probably more competent and willing to fight than the South Vietnamese army was, and may do most of the fighting, supported by US troops and 'contractors', high tech surveillance capabilities (practiced in the Ecuador incident), planes, bombs and ships. The Venezuelan military will fight back, with a ferocity that we haven't seen since those little peasants in straw hats and sandals defeated the humungous US military machine in the 1960s-1970s.

The US will coordinate with the local "patriots" to get up a fascist junta government of "North Venezuela"--not unlike the junta that is still killing leftist activists in Honduras, and they will proceed to "cleanse" the area of all vocal or suspected leftists and other Venezuelans loyal to the national government, and terrorize and silence everybody else, much as the Colombian military and its closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads have been "cleansing" Colombia of union leaders, political leftists, teachers, community organizers, human rights workers, small peasant farmers, journalists and others for the last decade or so.

The fascist government of "North Venezuela" will hand Venezuela's oil back over to Exxon Mobile, if and when this split-off area of Venezuela has been "pacified," and the US (perhaps having netted in northern Ecuador as well) will "circle the wagons" in the Central America/Caribbean/northern South America region, to protect this new fuel supply for the Pentagon's huge, fuel-sucking war machine (and for globalized "free trade for the rich," which be imposed by force on this region). Honduras will be used--as it has been before--as the "lily pad" country for US aggression against its neighbors--all of whom have newly elected leftist governments. All those governments will be toppled (Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador) and the region will be secured, perhaps with continued fighting in south Venezuela and south Ecuador and possibly with Venezuelan and Ecuadoran allies such as Brazil and Bolivia.

I think that's the plan. I've seen its pieces being put in place, one by one. I don't think the US will win it. In fact, I think it will be the "Waterloo" of the US Empire. But it will inflict terrible suffering, carnage and mayhem on the region, and will result in a permanent breach between the northern and southern halves in this hemisphere.

A stupid plan? We don't have the resources? When did that ever stop the Pentagon and associated war profiteers?

I have dreaded it for some time, and I fear that it may be more imminent than I thought. God knows I don't want it to happen. But I cannot see any other reason that accounts for all of the above except a second US oil war.

Get ready for deja vu all over again--those of you who remember Vietnam--when our government once again says to us that they are sending "just a few military advisers" to Colombia. Actually, the "advisers" are already there, preparing the way for the escalation.

[dgibby]

29. I think you're really on to something. If the scenario you described plays out,

what do you thank Russia's response/role would be, especially since they're developing a much closer alliance with Chavez, and have been conducting Naval maneuvers in that area? And where would China fit into this picture?

[Peace Patriot]

37. I don't know the answer to your question, but I think the answer may be related to

WHY the U.S. pulled back from attacking Iran (circa late 2008, when Rumsfeld resigned). I think there were two main reasons, 1) China and/or Russia threatened to come into it, on Iran's side--threat a nuclear armageddon; and 2) Iran (besides having strong allies) is well-defended (unlike Iraq, for instance, which had no air force when the US attacked, and had been hammered first by 12 years of sanctions and "no fly" zones); the only way to attack Iran would be with nukes, and the US military brass balked at using nukes (esp. with potential escalation to a larger nuclear war).

I think the Pentagon wants to attack Venezuela in lieu of attacking Iran, to fuel the US war machine. Venezuela is pretty well defended but not as well defended as Iran.

China and Russia have deals with Venezuela, but China is much more dependent on Iran for a stable oil supply. The ties are not as strong and might result in their not becoming involved.

Venezuela's and Ecuador's oil may look like "easy pickuns" to the Pentagon. I think they are quite wrong. Nothing like independence, self-determination, sovereignty and social justice to inspire people to fight back, even if the odds seem very much against them. Vietnam, for instance. Or ourselves and our allies, for that matter, in WW II.

[dgibby]

41. Thanks.

Your posts are very thoughtful and educational.

I've been of the opinion that being bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan is the only thing that has kept us from escalating in Latin America. Looks like that respite may be coming to a close. Very worrisome.

[hack89]

40. You have a very active imagination. nt

[boppers]

42. Interesting (and thought provoking) analysis, but see #39.

I'd also add into the mix (because it seems very similar) the way our Pakistan drone strike policy works, both on a public and private level... the public face is that attacks will not be tolerated, the private face is one of agreement and tolerance.

For some past examples of how this has worked, we've privately told Chavez about plots against him, and he's managed to deal with them, and then publicly blamed the US, we've told Pakistan about camps and taken them out, and then they publicly blamed us... see how it works?

[The abyss]

52. As always - The best analysis!

Well spoken!

[EFerrari]

67. Maybe Honduras was just a test for the Obama administration.

[Overseas]

84. I am sad that this sounds plausible.

I want us to be done with that kind of thinking.

I want us to have our green era of decentralized local alternative energy power supplies, freed from the need to make wars for oil.

And i hear a voice asking: who said we wanted to be freed from war? That's just holiday hooey for the masses. The term "we" in the USA includes corporate conglomerate Superpeople driven only by quarterly profits. War drives a lot of money.

That's why I had so much hope riding on the impeachment of Bush & Cheney. We needed a shock to derail heavy warfare as a strategy. It is too carbon intensive. Wastes a lot of our allotment.

Wanted the green filter to be applied to all our major industries.

So I don't like to hear news of this business as usual approach. But seeing those couple of odd stories of Chavez buzz and having known about those bases already but not the latest death squads and not how they resonate with those awful years of Reagan's undeclared wars in Central America.

We needed some kind of Truth & Reconciliation Project to hit the pause button on the war machinery.

[Zorro]

19. Probably just one of Hugo's drug-running cohorts

that forgot to file a flight plan. There's not much need to fly "an unmanned U.S. spy plane" over the base.

I would think the Venezuelans are getting pretty tired of Hugo invoking the US boogeyman all the time.

[boppers]

20. The Dutch too!

They're all out to get him! (From the same article):

"Last week, the president accused the Netherlands of letting the U.S. military use Dutch islands off Venezuela's Caribbean coast to prepare for a possible military offensive. The former paratroop commander said the U.S. military has sent intelligence agents, warships and spy planes to Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, which are self-governing Dutch islands.

The Dutch government rejected the allegations and the country's top diplomat, Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen, has asked Venezuela's ambassador to clarify the claims, Dutch Foreign Ministry spokesman Bart Rijs said."

[Mudoria]

26. When your country is falling apart

it's always a good idea to try and rally the gullible to some "outside" influence supposedly threatening the country. Smoke and mirrors.

[provis99]

60. I'm aware that America is falling apart,

but this seems to be an unnecessary provocation of Venezuela, in an area of the planet where we are losing imperial power. What good does this provocation do?

[Pavulon]

63. You believe this ass? And id you ever had to travel there

you would realize no matter how fucked up it is here, say detroit. Still better than the hillside slums in caracas.

He is jumping at his shadow.

[peacetalksforall]

71. And you blame whom for the slums?

[Pavulon]

72. The guy who took in all the oil money over the last 9 years

his mom and brother are PAID. Poor people, still poor.

[peacetalksforall]

75. Pitiful answer. Sorry, no cigar. Those slums have been there for decades. Only now

are those people getting an education and jobs.

The hit-men successes in South America included Venezuela. Former President-'friends' now live comfortably in places like Fisher Island, Palm Beach, Majorca, the Gold Coast, or perhaps Coral Gables.

Please check the history.

The US always supported a slum class and a privileged class - kept costs low.

Please don't try to tell us that Chavez built and fed the slums.

[Wilms]

87. You wouldn't need to like the guy to make an actually relevant critique.

I respect you have a problem with Chavez. And I can easily admit he's imperfect. But to clear the air, perhaps it would inform to go back to the beginning and try to find out what is really the root of your unease with him...this democratically elected progressive bent on the nation's resources benefiting the general public?

[Pavulon]

110. He led a coup in 1992

he gave his mommy and family jobs in government, his brothers hold important posts as well. Like I have said to some of his disciples I will judge his accomplishments when he peacefully hands over power to an real successor (ie no putin trick)

[Wilms]

120. "...peacefully hands over power to an real successor..."?

He asked the Venezuelan people if he could run for another term. They voted yes. He ran. They elected him.

You don't approve. You want regime change. Got it.

[Pavulon]

123. Transition of power is the fundamental idea

behind a peaceful system of government. So when they vote in his successor, no matter who he is then I will judge him

You do think that works right? I mean the castro model is out there, but not really that cool. Hey my brother can run shit now. Same with lil kin in north korea.

[Wilms]

129. OK. OK. You hate Chavez. I got it.

[ChangoLoa]

137. The post-referendum election you're mentioning won't take place before december 2012

So "He asked the Venezuelan people if he could run for another term (in dec 2007, along with 68 other measures; in feb 2009, with the re-election being the only issue ). They voted yes (the second time, the first referendum was rejected)." He will run for president in 2012 and try to be elected

[hack89]

140. I think the point is that the key to a successful and stable democracy

is the passing of power not only between individuals but also between different political parties. It is a test that many so call democracies fail. It has nothing to do with Chavez - regardless of what one may think of him and his policies, the biggest gift he can give his people is a peaceful and open transfer of power to an elected successor. His attempts to amended the constitution to change term limits and his obvious dislike for any political opposition is reason to fear he will fail this test.

[Wilms]

147. I wasn't aware of that "test", or the democracies that failed it.

And I don't see a real need for term limits. The US didn't have them for the longest time.

A democratically elected official ain't the worst thing, generally.

[hack89]

150. Then you don't understand democracy

care to point out a single true democracy which has had single person or party rule for a very long time. How do you distinguish them from dictatorships or oligarchies?

The US may not have had term limits but we have had 44 Presidents and countless Senators, Governors and Congressmen. We have also had a wide range of political ideologies govern us. Every transfer of power was peaceful and without violence.

As for US presidential term limits, the fact that the 23rd amendment passed with such ease shows just uncomfortable the American people were with FDR's four terms.

Democratically elected does not always represent democracy - most dictatorships have constitutions and elections. Which gets back to my original point - officials willingly giving up power is a true of a democracy.

[Wilms]

151. BS. Either it's a democracy or it's not.

If he's a dictator, it ain't a democracy. If he's D E M O C R A T I C A L L Y elected, he's not a dictator. And that holds true even if you don't like the person the Venezuelan majority voted into office.

Chavez is in office 10 years. FDR put in 12. Would have been 16 years, or more, had he lived.

I don't know that I lack an understanding of democracy. In fact, I find a fundamental disrespect for democracy...particularly Venezuelan democracy...by some of the posters here.

[ChangoLoa]

153. 11 years

And, not discussing about Venezuela, democracy has to do with more than simple elections. That was the absurd position of the Bush government in Iraq.. "there are open and fair elections, we brought democracy" BS.

[Wilms]

154. Register your complaint with the Venezuelan majority. n/t

[ChangoLoa]

155. My "complaint" was about what you said

Not about Venezuela, read again. I don't agree that elections are a sufficient condition for democracy, just a necessary condition.

[Wilms]

160. Last I checked, the topic WAS and is VZ. n/t

[hack89]

156. There have been many "elected" dictators

elections do not in and of themselves indicate democracy. Elections can be manipulated, opposition can be suppressed and marginalized, representative bodies and courts can be packed - history is full of examples.

There has never been a democracy with a live time ruler - never.

Maybe FDR would have served for 16 years - but he would have been the last. The American public was so uncomfortable with the potential of a lifetime President that the 23 amendment was passed very quickly.

[Wilms]

159. And none of those examples relate here.

I'm willing to accept Carter's word that the elctions in VZ were democratic.

[Pavulon]

161. I am willing to accept hugo the hero the day he leaves office

until then is just another elected politician. Transition of power is a fundamental part of democratic forms of government.

[Wilms]

162. And you can't accept him holding the office until he relinquishes it.

I got that.

[Pavulon]

163. NO. I withhold judgement on his term

until he leaves office. Do you support the castro model?

[Wilms]

164. You? Withhold judgement? n/t

[Pavulon]

165. He could turn water to wine (milk seems short there)

use oil money to improve some more stuff. Tell his brother to get a real job and make his mom pay back all the money he gave her. He could stop buying weapons to threaten colombia with and stop being a nationalist scaremongering jerkoff. Then he would be cool. That is a judgement.

Saying it is not possible to judge to assess a politician until they leave office is pretty much common sense.

[hack89]

169. They don't until the day comes that he has been in power for 20 years

with no end in sight. Many a dictator started with good intentions. It is when they start believing that they are the only one that can solve their countries problems that they become dictators.

Why do you think Chavez wanted to end term limits? Does he feels that he is the only man that can help Venezuela?

[Wilms]

171. You seem to have a problem with free elections in VZ.

And you are in company with a few other posters persistently complaining about what you say Chavez may do in the future.

I know. I know. We shouldn't wait until there's a mushroom cloud...blah, blah.

[hack89]

175. Free elections don't produce Presidents for life

So far I have no problems with their elections - I simply question his desire to remove term limits when his concern should be to ensure a peaceful turnover of power to a freely elected successor. That transition is the rock on which most young democracies run aground. It doesn't seem to be a concern of his.

[Wilms]

177. Really? Do you care to comment on how the term limits were removed?

Can you provide a link that says term-limits are a prerequisite for a democracy?

In fact, can you provide any mature and educated information that has even a bias toward what you assert?

[hack89]

181. No democracy produces a President for life

never happens. There is no example in history of a democracy where a single individual or party monopolized power for very long periods. Can you think of one? Do you think Cuba is a democracy for example?

I never said that term limits were removed - but Chavez's desires are very clear. That is the danger to Venezuela's democracy that he represents. If he gives up power at the end of his term I will admit I am wrong.

[Wilms]

183. President for life would exclude reelections. Not the case here.

Specious logic on your part. And shouldn't you be off somewhere bad-mouthing Uribe?

[hack89]

185. Cuba has elections. So does Zimbabwe

So my logic is grounded in reality.

I have supported Uribe - you really need to step away from this black and white logic that warps your perceptive of the world. I am perfectly capable of condemning both.

[Wilms]

187. Try again. Comparing VZ with Cuba, or with Zimbabwe's rigged elections is apples and oranges.

And it's ok with you for Uribe to have sought and won the removal of term limits.

That's seems hypocritical.

[hack89]

190. Typo on my part - I do not support Uribe

You are trying real hard to miss my point - I haven't said that Venezuela is Cuba or Zimbabwe.

[Flaneur]

131. Well, okay, then.

I'm waiting with bated breath for your judgment to be handed down.

[Pavulon]

148. Well if he goes the castro route. we could all be dead

by the time he leaves office. That is a fully expression, I think of a piece of baitfish on a tongue when it comes up.

[EFerrari]

119. Wrong. Poverty in Venezuela: DOWN by 25%.

And those are internationally audited numbers.

[Pavulon]

124. dupe

dupe

[Pavulon]

125. Umm I was there in February

it is still impoverished I still have my employer carry insurance for me for medical evac and KER (kidnap, extortion, ransom) as the roads around caracas are generally safe. The slums look about the same, not 25 percent smaller.

[EFerrari]

127. Extreme poverty: DOWN 75%. n/t

[Pavulon]

128. Enron had great numbers too..

let me repeat, you can smell poverty. People are quite poor there and it is a 3rd world nation. Every dime he spends on useless toys like migs is traded for human life.

[Wilms]

130. People in New Orleans, Newark, South Central LA, Detroit, etc. would agree.

At least here in this country, we give the poor opportunity to get an education and some money if they join the armed services.

Great system.

[Pavulon]

132. Yep, taxpayers paid for my College Degree

worked out pretty well for me. My family was not even poor. I think I paid some of the NCEES exam fees too.

[Wilms]

134. Glad you made it home in one piece. n/t

[hack89]

141. With a murder rate four times the US

I believe that there is a direct correlation between crime and poverty so it is clear they have a long way to go.

[LanternWaste]

139. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc... n/t

post hoc ergo prompter hoc...

[Sezu]

28. probably thought people would call him a wacko

if he called it a UFO.

Oh wait.....too late Hugo. :silly:

[boppers]

44. A UFO?

Was this one of his more colorful speaking moments?

[Blandocyte]

30. Ease up, Hugo,

We're just getting some takeout, fer christ sakes.

[vinylsolution]

31. While we campaign for an end....

... to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, we must always remember to campaign for an end to the decades-long war against Latin America.

How long has this been going on? And how often does it even get a mention by the corporate media?

It's not as if South America is any kind of threat to us. But then successive US administrations do have a history of inventing enemies, just so we can drop a few hundred thousand tons of munitions on innocent people.

US out of Iraq, Afghanistan and Latin America - NOW!

[AlphaCentauri]

33. "still smells of sulfur" as in the Bush era n/t

[jakefrep]

170. Sounds like Chavez doesn't recognize the odor of his own shit.

[peacetalksforall]

38. Just take a look or start watching every darn thing coming out of the State Dept, mainly from

Mrs. Clinton herself. She can NEVER say anything positive about Venezuela and Bolivia and we know what she did/didn't do in Honduras.

This is fresh policy and it is the same blatant crap they use for North Korea and Iran.

I am ashamed of the Democratic administration.

A few days ago Chavez said that we've struck some kind of deal in the Netherland Antilles (Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao) - for something - a short hop away.

Given that we already conducted and won then lost a coup d'etat against Chavez (under Cheney-Bush), are we now going to attempt ANOTHER COUP under Obama/Clinton. They call a coup a regime change.

If it is not evident that the Obama administration is bowing to baron-banking-corporate-military-multi national friend consortium, what is evident?

Those countries were gifted with earth resources and a multi-national baron-corporate regime wants it and they are using their 'tools'?

Sorry to speak to disrespectfully, but we are hearing the same preparatory verbal crap as Cheney-Bush fed it to us.

And if they go into Bolivia, they are probably going to include Paraguay because the election there removed the former President - a Cheney Bush Moon buddy.

These two brilliant people should be negotiating, not pimping it up for war.

Instead we negotiate with corrupt people in Columbia? (And the Netherland Antilles?)

This is so heartbreaking.

I wonder if they are going to use the old memes - communism and hosting terrorists.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Let's not forget the US shameful role in the coup in Honduras

and Hillary's role in enabling the coup.

[peacetalksforall]

47. A regime change that played out exactly how one of our DUers said it would - a

play out of the months leading up to the election. Zelaya made it into the country, but the US was behind their crooked choice of Michelletti (I think I already forgot how to spell his name).

The US got their regime change.

Always with death of innocent citizens.

There is no change yet.

[boppers]

48. We "conducted and won and then lost" that coup?

Interesting. We had been warned about it, moved ships into the area, and then watched it happen, and had historically supported pro-democracy and pro-capitalist groups in the region, but that's still more LIHOP than MIHOP... or do you know of some smoking gun that's more specific like, oh, someone in the State Department giving an order to make it happen?

Or is LIHOP enough to convince you that we "conducted" it? ("Conducted" in quotes, because I don't know how you meant that word to come across.)

[peacetalksforall]

49. Please. Didn't you follow it? Sorry, I'm not going to go look for links for you.

[boppers]

77. I followed it, and the follow-ups, very carefully.

That's why I was surprised by your perspective.

Have some wiki-perspective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez#Controversy_about_the_coup

"After Chávez resumed his presidency in April 2002, he ordered several investigations to be carried out, and their official results supported Chávez's assertions that the 2002 coup was sponsored by the United States.<58> On 16 April 2002, Chávez claimed that a plane with U.S. registration numbers had visited and been berthed at Venezuela's Orchila Island airbase, where Chávez had been held captive. On 14 May 2002, Chávez alleged that he had definitive proof of U.S. military involvement in April's coup. He claimed that during the coup Venezuelan radar images had indicated the presence of U.S. military naval vessels and aircraft in Venezuelan waters and airspace. The Guardian published a claim by Wayne Madsen – a writer (at the time) for left-wing publications and a former Navy analyst and critic of the George W. Bush administration – alleging U.S. Navy involvement.<59> U.S. Senator Christopher Dodd, D-CT, requested an investigation of concerns that Washington appeared to condone the removal of Mr Chavez,<60><61> which subsequently found that "U.S. officials acted appropriately and did nothing to encourage an April coup against Venezuela's president", nor did they provide any naval logistical support.<62><63> According to Democracy Now!, CIA documents indicate that the Bush administration knew about a plot weeks before the April 2002 military coup. They cite a document dated 6 April 2002, which says: "dissident military factions... are stepping up efforts to organize a coup against President Chávez, possibly as early as this month." According to William Brownfield, ambassador to Venezuela, the US embassy in Venezuela warned Chávez about a coup plot in April 2002.<64> The United States Department of State and the investigation by the Office of the Inspector General found no evidence that "US assistance programs in Venezuela, including those funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), were inconsistent with US law or policy" or "... directly contributed, or was intended to contribute, to ."<62><65> Payments by the NED had been stepped up in the weeks preceding the coup. According to The Observer, the coup was approved by the government of the United States, acting through senior officials, including Otto Reich and Elliott Abrams, who had long histories in the US-backed "dirty wars" in Central America in the 1980s, and top coup plotters, including Pedro Carmona himself, began visits to the White House months before the coup and with the man President George Bush tasked to be his key policy-maker for Latin America, Otto Reich.<66> Carmona also met with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell in Bogata, Columbia, on the second day of the 2002–2003 oil strike, and frequently met with the U.S. ambassador to Columbia, Ann Paterson.<67>

Chávez also claimed, during the coup's immediate aftermath, that the U.S. was still seeking his overthrow. On 6 October 2002, he stated that he had foiled a new coup plot, and on 20 October 2002, he stated that he had barely escaped an assassination attempt while returning from a trip to Europe.<23> During that period, the US Ambassador to Venezuela warned the Chávez administration of two potential assassination plots.<64>"

So, Chavez claimed it was a US plot, and grabbed on any evidence he could (there were planes and boats in the area, therefore they were behind the coup? Uh, that's some sloppy thinking, there), but US investigations found no such link, and independent journalists have weighed in with perspectives, but no smoking gun.

[Wilms]

88. You didn't follow closely enough.

US 'likely behind' Chavez coup

Jimmy Carter, a former US president, has said that Washington knew about an abortive coup against Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, in 2002, and that it may even have taken part.

"I think there is no doubt that in 2002, the United States had at the very least full knowledge about the coup, and could even have been directly involved," Carter said in an interview with Colombian El Tiempo newspaper published on Sunday.

Carter said it was understandable that Chavez continues to blame the US for the failed attempt to overthrow him.

Chavez was deposed by a civilian-military junta for about 48 hours in April 2002, before returning to power.

George Bush, the then US president, denied any US involvement in the abortive coup and called on Chavez, who is critical of US policy, to "learn a lesson" from the attempted overthrow.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/09/200992116049879437.html

Go on and read it. Carter even admonishes Chavez. Neither is he blind or uncritical.

[boppers]

93. Been in a household that has had a divorce?

Same routine.

[peacetalksforall]

50. Please. Didn't you follow it? Sorry, I'm not going to go look for links for you.

[Socal31]

53. The people who take this idiot at his word....

....yet wont take the word of our (D) president make me laugh on the inside.

[EFerrari]

58. Too bad they don't make you post on the inside, too.

lol

[Sezu]

64. For me it's on the outside too. n/t

[Pavulon]

54. Looks like some posters little che jesus needs his leash yanked.

we spy with satellites. The jets we used to spy with were never shot down by the USSR (sr-71) and would not be threatened by a wanker like hugo.

[EFerrari]

59. Our planes full of goons have gone down all over Latin America.

Crack a book.

[Pavulon]

62. No USAF aircraft has been lost in VZ

before or after hugo held a coup take power. You do remember him leading a coup right?

Time for hugo to sack up and shoot one down. He is full of shit and has neither the balls to back his statement or the capability to shoot down anything we fly with the gear he operates.

Maybe he can nut up like castro and shoot down an unarmed civilian aircraft. Declare a special day and have a red parade..

[EFerrari]

65. Do you remember how this nation found out about Iran Contra?

Maybe you should nut up and admit you're wrong.

"Hasenfus was aboard the Fairchild C-123 cargo plane, N4410F<1>, formerly USAF 54-679, (c/n 20128), shot down over Nicaragua on October 5, 1986, while delivering supplies to the Nicaraguan Contras. The two pilots died in the crash, but Hasenfus was able to parachute to safety, having disobeyed orders by wearing a parachute on the mission. He was captured by Nicaraguan government forces, tried, and sentenced to 25 years in prison. In December 1986, at the request of U.S. Senator Chris Dodd, he was pardoned and released by Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega."

[Pavulon]

68. formerly USAF 54-679, formerly means something...

let me think.. Like I said, no USAF aircraft lost in vz. I wonder how many here would actually back this jackoff if he fired on an american aircraft in colombian airspace. I think lots of people would be blinded by faith in their man god and jump right in.

[EFerrari]

69. Those goalposts must get heavy. n/t

[Pavulon]

70. I assume you are an adult with some formal education

The statement "no usaf aircraft has been lost" is very clear. You know what American Airlines did with all the 727 it no longer flies. Sold them to other airlines. So when these crash as part of Air Ethiopia that does not mean an AA flight went down.

It is also clear that people worship this guy like he was walking on water and making wine at the same time. Blind faith is scary.

[EFerrari]

117. You are making a distinction without a difference.

And knowing that planes with US government personnel have gone down all over Latin America is not "blind faith". Geebus.

[Pavulon]

126. Sure they have, not over VZ

and not recently. Hugo is quite full of shit. He has neither the balls or the capability to start shooting US aircraft down.

[Socal31]

66. Of course he doesn't.

He is using a boogieman (USA) to justify his military buildup to his starving citizens. That $5,000,000,000 line of credit he just opened up with the Russians for arms needs to be tapped. Why not put in an order for some S-300s now that we are violating his airspace?

He feels rather manly because Pooty-poot signed some agreements with him, and is attempting to be a world player. What he doesn't realize is, is that he is as much of a 3rd-rate pawn to Russia as Mr. Saakashvili is to the US. If ever did something as stupid as attack US forces unprovoked, he would look around and be standing there alone, just like our Georgian friends did.

This whole deal is another post cold-war proxy dick-measuring, only this time without a real enemy. We have no plans to invade Venezuela, and anyone who thinks we do is either using hyperbole or is smoking some of that South American happy lettuce.

[EFerrari]

118. You're so wrong, it should be painful.

According to the UN, food security in Venezuela is better than it ever has been.

And apparently you know nothing about the very real military build up in Latin America that has the whole region pissed off at Obama.

Bogeyman, my @ss.

[ChangoLoa]

135. Not true: food security in Venezuela is at its worst historical level

But you were already informed about that particular issue with FAO numbers (UN)... as usual.

[EFerrari]

138. Wrong, and spun . . . as usual. n/t

[ChangoLoa]

142. Well, that's what FAO (UN) says, not me

Let's check what YOUR own source says:

Proportion of undernourished in total population

--------1990-1992---2003-2005 (%)

Bolivia-------24-------22
Brazil--------10--------6
Colombia-----15-------10
Ecuador------24-------15
Guyana------18--------6
Paraguay-----16-------11
Peru---------28-------15
Suriname-----11--------7
Venezuela----10-------12

Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are excluded because of unavailable data for 1990-1992 and/or 2003-2005.

According to the FAO-UN, in this group, Venezuela went from being 1st in food security to 6th, between 1990-1992 and 2003-2005.

Source: The State of Food Insecurity in the World 2008, FAO-UN, Rome, 2008

...
"According to the UN, food security in Venezuela is better than it ever has been"
Do you invent this propagandistic crap or get it in your usual online propaganda magazines?

Now, EFerrari, let's see if you have some intellectual honesty and admit your mistake this time.

[Wilms]

166. That's funny. You provide no link. I find it and says the something different.

Table 1 on page 49, in fact. (So it's easy to find.)

The State of Food Insecurity in the World 2008
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/011/i0291e/i0291e00.pdf


It says that the percentage of the population suffering in 1995-97 was 14%. In 2003-05 it was down to 12%


Is there some misunderstanding here?

[ChangoLoa]

157. Right, don't admit your "mistake" EFerrari...that's intellectual dishonesty, as usual.

"Like you say, not like you do" remember?

[EFerrari]

168. What "mistake"? This article is from 2005 but I have to warn you, there are no pictures:

snip

David Raby, from the University of Liverpool’s Institute of Latin American studies notes that:

“The Venezuelan agrarian reform goes beyond satisfying peasant land hunger and alleviating poverty. It is based as far as possible on organic practices and is intended as the foundation stone of an entirely new social and economic model, oriented towards self-sufficiency, sustainability and “endogenous” development.

The land reform laws are thoroughly despised by the Venezuelan landowning elite and capitalist class, who have denounced it as an act of “Castrocommunism” and an attempt to introduce “Cuban slavery”. One of the very first things the leaders of the failed 2002 coup did was attempt to overturn these laws.

Due to the high dependence on the oil industry, Venezuela’s arable lands are chronically underutilised and mismanaged, resulting in the import of some 70% of Venezuela’s food. While there is plenty of rich agricultural land available, agricultural production is low — only 6% of the GDP. Venezuela’s agricultural sector is the least productive in all of Latin America.

Previous land reform programs intended to benefit peasants and landless people resulted in land eventually being taken over by cattle barons and other large landowners. According to Ricaute Leonete, chairperson of the National Land Institute, these landowners “aren’t even capitalists. Capitalists make use of their land … In Europe capitalism got rid of this kind of parasitic behaviour a long time ago”.

In a 2003 interview with the North American Congress on Latin America, Chavez described the land reform policy in Venezuela as an agrarian revolution:

“For 40 years they’ve been talking about agrarian reform, and it’s done nothing but reinforce the old colonial system. First, we’re putting into effect the constitutional principles to obtain a real and lasting change in the rural areas—principles like prioritising and taking seriously food security.’‘

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2005/613/35491

More recent material:

U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization Says Venezuela Prepared for World Food Crisis
Published on February 27th 2009, by James Suggett - Venezuelanalysis.com

Mérida, February 27th 2009 (Venezuelanalysis.com) -- The representative of the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) in Venezuela, Francisco Arias Milla, said the Venezuelan government’s investment in domestic food production and regional food security will strengthen its ability and that of its neighbors to withstand the worsening global food crisis.

“The FAO recognizes the efforts of the national government to introduce policies, strategies, and programs to confront the global economic crisis and the volatility of food prices, and at the same time to protect the food and nutritional security of the Venezuelan people,” Arias told the Bolivarian News Agency (ABN) on Thursday.

Arias specified Venezuela’s national subsidized food market, Mercal, its growing system of public cafeterias, and the state-run Venezuelan Food Production and Distribution company (PDVAL), which sells food at regulated prices, as examples of policies which “permit greater access to food for the most vulnerable strata of society.”

Venezuela has implemented several policies that the FAO recommends, including the fomenting of local food production through the strengthening of social networks, Arias pointed out.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4254



The Food Sovereignty Movement in Venezuela
Friday, November 27, 2009
By Anna Isaacs

During his expeditions with INIA Basil saw the work of rural communal councils. Through their communal councils, many agricultural villages and towns are organizing to develop transportation infrastructure in order to make production economically viable. Since isolation can threaten food sovereignty, this development is most urgent where dirt roads are all that connect remote villages to larger urban markets.. One such road lies in a mountainous region south of the city of Mérida in a cluster of small towns called Los Pueblos del Sur, or the villages of the south. The road is a patchwork; some sections are paved while others are virtually impassable without four-wheel drive. This patchwork road illustrates a very interesting dynamic of the Bolivarian revolution. With increased autonomy over their territory through legally recognized communal councils, some communities have made it a priority to improve their section of the road. They have created plans; they have applied for and received government funds and they have paved the sections that pass through their community. Neighboring communities have not.

This can easily be seen as proof of the ineffectiveness of community-based development. A road that passes through many communities presents the challenge of consistency. But development initiated by one community may motivate others. People can learn from a neighbor’s example that they have the very tangible power to direct the development of their communities and their regions; they may decide to pave their own sections of road.

http://bioenergy.checkbiotech.org/news/food_sovereignty_movement_venezuela

Food security and sovereignty has been the law in Venezuela since July 2008:

snip

n Indonesia, the ‘food law’ (7/1996) recognises the right to adequate food for all, covers food security and food safety, and allocates institutional responsibility. In July 2008, Venezuela adopted the ‘organic law on food security and food sovereignty’, article 8 of which recognises the right to food. In addition a number of other countries, like Mozambique and Honduras, are in the process of elaborating and adopting legislation on the right to food.

These developments are not merely of symbolic value. Instead, they operate the shift from the proposition that ‘we need to have policies that achieve food security’ to the proposition that ‘each individual must be granted a remedy if his/her right to food is violated’.

http://www.stwr.org/food-security-agriculture/realising-the-right-to-food.html

And now you'll excuse me if I go do something more useful like swat flies.

[Wilms]

178. ChangoLoa may have lied trying to get us believe bogus numbers from the UN report.

Sad, if true, to have that go down on DU.

[ChangoLoa]

182. Stop acting like an Inquisitor, Wilms

Trial by speculation is low and regressive. You asked a question before you suggested an answer, I believe. The numbers I showed are not false but incomplete... they were quoted that way in the text I got them from. I went to your link and checked, you're right. Under-nutrition came down from 14% to 12% in the last 12 years. On the other hand, I think you've understood that this: "food security in Venezuela is better than it ever has been" is propaganda. If you were impartial in the arbitration role you've given to yourself, you would mention that part too.

[Wilms]

184. WTF are you talking about? Your unlinked numbers were BS.

And you hounded EF with them. And you continue to complain about her quote without a damn thing to back yourself up.

BS on your incomplete quotes, thought process, and logic.

Inquisitor? Hardly. On this web site there's a tradition of calling BS on BS.

[EFerrari]

186. If you search his posts, it's more predictable than sad. ETA:

Merry Christmas, my friend! I'm going to give myself a present using one of DU's great features.

lol

:hi:

[Wilms]

188. You meann THIS feature...?

:evilgrin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&iid=247889&level=three

Happy Christmas (War Is Over)

:hi:

[peacetalksforall]

74. You sure sound like a military person - if yes, are you doing this on your own time or

citizen's time?

[hack89]

114. There are a lot more ex-military than active military

we don't lose all our knowledge when we become civilians.

Just something to consider before you start shooting the messenger because you don't like what you are hearing.

[PacerLJ35]

192. Interesting attitude...

First of all, military networks generally block websites like these. Secondly, why would it be surprising that someone in the military might post on here? You apparently have plenty of time to do it...

[peacetalksforall]

73. You mean the planes that also carry the drugs?

[EFerrari]

85. Probablly. Goons, drugs, weapons. Iran Contra, the Next Generation.

[boppers]

78. Psst. Gary Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Gary_Powers

[Pavulon]

106. The USSR is in VZ shooting at 50's era planes?

like I said chavez just needs to man up and shoot it down. All the talk about moving tanks to the boarder with colombia and shooting down us drones is boring. After a while I wonder if he will actually do something interesting rather than just say something interesting.

The USSR fired lots of sams at the sr-71, never hit it.

[Azathoth]

80. Dubya had his weekly terror alerts, Hugo has his weekly Yank scares

Ever the same.

[ChangoLoa]

136. Just a bit exhausting from the inside... nt.

[LaPera]

81. Fucking CIA! No one controls them they do as they please -

Destroy progressive governments for corporations an the republican imperialist...fucking CIA reports to no one and no one can ever get the truth from them....No wonder why JFK wanted to break up the CIA with their own military operations and no one can ever get any answers all re receives are lies and denials.

[boppers]

83. Psst. CIA are only one tiny piece of the puzzle.

Other orgs are more than happy to have the CIA as a whipping boy, though, as it keeps people looking in the wrong directions...

A list of the larger, public, enties:
http://www.intelligence.gov/1-members.shtml

[Wilms]

89. Who gives a shit. They all have the same boss.

You find a few clerical errors and try to convince people we ain't being played.

You want to take sleeping pills? Go ahead. But don't peddle that on our street corner.

-on edit-

Cool link. Underscores assertions that there are a lot of spooks tweaking things for the ruling class. Try not to be an unwitting accomplice or useful idiot. OK?

[boppers]

90. Be informed.

Knowledge is the best weapon.

[Wilms]

91. Agreed. That's why I had posted a reply to you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4192851&mesg_id=4193255

[boppers]

94. That's not a link. That's a circular reference.

This is a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_United_States

[Wilms]

96. A circular reference?

Or a friendly reminder.

Meanwhile, from your link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_United_States#Criticisms

[boppers]

98. Here's how it works.

You (hypothetically) say Zeus is god.

You provide a link to a site that says Zeus is god.

Which links here.... automatic fail.

You linked back to yourself.

[Wilms]

99. There's nothing hypothetical about the groups I named.

Unless, of course, you remain unaware of them.

I'm your classmate, not your teacher. Grab an oar.

[boppers]

101. Hey, classmate.

I'm well steeped.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTLINGUAL

[Wilms]

121. With information, perhaps so.

It's what you do...or don't do...with it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

112. The CIA Director reports to the President

If he did not like what the CIA was doing, he could replace the CIA Director.

[onehandle]

113. What a little crybaby thug. nt

[slackmaster]

116. Bullshit

It was probably some kid with a remote control model plane.

[Dreamer Tatum]

133. Probably gathering some scrap metal and the guts of a broken TV now

so he can stand over a pile of it for the TV stations.

[David__77]

143. I can understand his saying this, but it would be better to just shoot one down and present evidence

Otherwise, this will just foster cynicism about the veracity of the claim. Venezuela, of course, has every right to defend its airspace and to arrest and punish spies and foreign agents.

[EFerrari]

173. Can you imagine the headline if he did shoot one down?

"Chavez launches war against Colombia"

[harun]

152. Vive Chavez!

[Meshuga]

174. That's his version of the terror alerts

It gets the people all pissed off at the "evil" enemy so it helps him out. It worked for Bush and it works for Chavez.

[EFerrari]

191. The US is having a military build up in Latin America. Chavez doesn't need

to fabricate sh!t.

[Renew Deal]

176. Chavez is working on manufacturing an enemy.

He needs to justify his arms purchases.

[classysassy]

189. When have we ever needed an excuse to invade

another nation.?The people that rule this country(not the president or the congress),are not too happy with president chavez,he has replaced the ruling class(aka the euro/cauc) and their pals in this country have been asked to help them regain their stolen country.