Imam Tied to Fort Hood Shooter "Killed"

[RamboLiberal]

Source: ABC News/Reuters

SANAA (Reuters) - A radical Muslim preacher linked by U.S. intelligence to a gunman who killed 13 people at a U.S. Army base is believed to have died in a Yemen airstrike on al Qaeda militants, a security official said on Thursday.

"Anwar al Awlaki is suspected to be dead (in the air raid)," said the Yemeni official, who asked not to be identified. Yemen said 30 militants were killed in the strike in the eastern province of Shabwa.

The gunman in the November 5 shooting at the Fort Hood, Texas army base, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, had contacts with Awlaki late last year, U.S. authorities believe.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=9414764

[tavalon]

1. Was he second in command of Al-Queda?

Oh, wait, wrong administration.......

[PurityOfEssence]

70. No, but he was a drummer for Spinal Tap

the count goes on...

[RC]

2. The bad guys always assemble in groups of 30 to get blown up?

You'd think they'd learn after a while, there's safety in numbers. Stay in smaller groups.

[dixiegrrrrl]

13. I noticed that too.

It's like the people giving out these stories have one story they put out each time, and are too lazy to change the numbers.
Notice how cleverly they tied the Ft. Hood shooter to a terrorism group in Yemen.
Notice how impossible it would be for the average person to ever disprove that.
Notice how they can count and identify people blown to pieces.

[Pavulon]

16. Ever used faces and places on a Mac?

the weapon that splattered him was probably fired from a platform that recognized his face. They can get busy anointing in the afterlife now..

[JonQ]

69. For some reason they won't stand out in the middle of the desert

alone, waiting for us to attack.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

3. Good.

[Pavulon]

4. This conflict will be decided in the shadows.

not on the ground. Any person providing money or logistics for acts that kill americans at home or abroad is a military target.

Money men, clerics (recruiters), and fixers are the people who need to be looking over their shoulder. Wherever they live, saudi or switzerland, they can be reached.

[zonkers]

10. Good plot for next Borne movie.

[Octafish]

5. What a coincidence.

What are the odds during the age of Total Information Awareness that a radical Mullah tied to a US Army major with a bad attitude and poor on-the-job ratings would get the ziggy? Not that there's anything new we could learn from the now-late Imam without a little torture.

[The Stranger]

6. What does "linked to" mean? What does "tied to" mean?

Did this man take part in the killings at Fort Hood?

Or not?

[The Stranger]

7. If there is no factual, causal connection between this man the U.S. blew up and the actual killings

at Fort Hood, then wasn't this man blown up based on his ideology?

[Pavulon]

8. Facilitating travel and recruiting people. Risk of his job.

arranging for others to kill americans should come with the threat of violent death. I am cool with him getting smoked for that. Hopefully he is on his knees getting plowed all orifices by his 72 virgins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

[RC]

21. And because others feel the same way do, Where does the circle stop?

When we blow up 29 Innocent civilians to get people we designate as bad, that just perpetuates the tit for tat.

[boppers]

24. What source do you have that there were 29 innocent civilians?

I'm guessing we went after a group meeting, a loya jirga-style gathering.

[The Stranger]

30. I think the burden of proof works exactly the opposite way.

What source do you have that the 29 killed were not innocent civilians?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

32. Yet to see a news article about civilian deaths in this strike

If you have one, feel free to present it. Until then, you're just playing the guessing game.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/24/yemen.airstrike/index.html

[boppers]

35. Sources (first three in google news for "Yemen airstrike"):

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2009/1224/Yemen-air-strike-on-Al-Qaeda-Was-cleric-linked-to-Fort-Hood-shooting-killed has "more than two dozen suspected militants"
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BN0FZ20091224 has "30 al Qaeda militants" killed when "the militants were gathered for a meeting"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8429370.stm has "30 suspected al-Qaeda militants" and "at the suspected al-Qaeda meeting"

I haven't seen claims about 29 civilians, or actually, any civilians, yet.

[RC]

61. 29 Innocent civilians + the bad guy = 30 people

Since we, the US are supposed to be the good guys, we don't kill innocent civilians, so therefore everyone we kill must be militants.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

64. Perhaps you could cite a source

if you sincerely believe this most recent strike killed a large number of civilians. Until then...

[The Stranger]

62. Here's a report that includes civilians from a previous strike:

A local official and a tribal source said 49 civilians, including 23 women and 17 children, were killed in that air strike. The civilian casualties sparked protests in Abyan and two people were killed by twin explosions after one such protest on Monday.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iAzqPlZiuhmFo7XAJnGx6i4ur7Zg

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

65. I think we're all aware that civilians have been killed in some of the past strikes

What we're arguing is that it's sloppy to assume large number of civilians are killed in *each and every strike* and to condemn airstrikes against al-Qaeda out of hand.

For the record, in the strike you're citing with this article, dozens of al-Qaeda members were also killed, including several senior figures within the organization. Apparently they had set up shop amidst nomadic people who were living in a sort of tent city. Not saying that necessarily makes the strike the right decision in that case. I'm simply stating this so people have a more complete story off which to make up their own minds.

[The Stranger]

71. The news reports that eventually come out regarding the civilians killed will likely show otherwise.

The evidence posted establishes a pattern where civilians are killed in airstrikes on suspected terrorists. Once the news (more evidence) is out completely on this one, the pattern will likely be no different here.

Someone recently here on the boards was inquiring about the legality of air strikes, and it go me thinking:

1. Aside from all of the civilians we know are innocent dead, you are already assuming that the even the suspects (if correctly identified) are guilty. True guilt has never been (and likely never can be) established. For those in favor of the strike, this becomes rather convenient as they insist guilt be assumed. Of course, as a legal matter, this is exactly wrong: guilt must never be assumed, but proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

2. And, aside from the presumption (or insistence) of guilt, even the "guilt" at issue here is legally false. This kind of "guilt" involves only some association with a group of people. What is almost a half millennium of settled criminal law jurisprudence requires intentional and causal connection by a specific defendant to a crime; there cannot be guilt solely based on association with a group of people. Again, the very type of act in question -- an air strike -- may prevent these legal questions from being answered. In a sense, the evidence is conveniently destroyed.

So you can see once you delve into it, the layers of illegality only compound. And this is why there is such an effort to change (or eviscerate) laws that have been settled for centuries. And perhaps also why the media refuses to report these changes, much less question or analyze them.

[The Stranger]

63. Here's another on a previous strike:

Air strike 'kills 70 civilians' in Yemen

The Saudi Arabia air force has bombed a market in Yemen killing 70 civilians, rebels in the north of the country say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8411726.stm

[boppers]

68. Previous strike = not this one. eom

[Garam_Masala]

36. I think the authorities have emails exchanged between major Hasan

and the imam.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Posteritatis]

11. The OP quotes the entire article

In this case "linked to" seems to mean that the two talked at some point, which of course could mean just about anything even if there is some sort of connection there.

I generally hate news reports or whatnot that talk about something being "linked to" something else; the term's almost meaninglessly vague at this point and carries lots of unjustified "therefore.." implications in many cases.

[slackmaster]

9. Good

One less religious fanatic asshole in the world.

[FLPanhandle]

12. +1

Too bad they can't all gather in one spot and we could done with them at once.

[gratuitous]

14. Well, at least according to the people who blew him up

We, the people who paid for this, will never know. But we will quite possibly be the targets for any vengeance carried out by the man's surviving relatives or friends. Then I suppose it will be all right to send our military out to bomb some more people indiscriminately, so they can kill some of us back, and so on and so on and so on.

And there will be people on both sides absolutely convinced that they're making the world a better, safer place because their "side" is killing infidels or religious fanatic assholes. All hail the High Church of Redemptive Violence!

[Pavulon]

15. Money well spent.

this guy needed to have his ticket punched. Sounds like they were quite discriminating on who got turned to alpo.

[gratuitous]

17. And you say that because . . . ?

You knew Anwar al Awlaki personally? I'm guessing not. Or is it because you trust the word of the people who blew him up? That seems a pretty shaky premise; are you similarly glad that Scott Roeder blew Dr. Tiller away? After all, Mr. Roeder says that the person he killed was a really bad person who needed dying, too.

I'd be interested to know how you perceive the differences, if you can articulate them.

[Pavulon]

18. His opinions and actions were made public

he clearly states his position. ANY ONE funding or providing logistics to kill americans is a military target where they are not protected by the constitution. So being turned to pink mist or getting shot in the face are not the real issue. The issue is he is now dead. I am sure asking really nice would have stopped him. The world will not work on please and thanks.

Your comparison to us criminal activity is so far off I will not address it in the same post. They are no more relevant than fly fishing spots.

[gratuitous]

19. So now you're a military target, too

Since you've clearly and publicly stated your position, right? You've ceded all protections afforded to you under any rule of law and if someone turns you into pink mist, that's just the way it goes and maybe you should have been more alert; or blown away some more people; or paid someone else to shoot more people in the face.

Nice way to live.

[Pavulon]

20. We are protected by the constitution.

we are not in yemen playing jihad. The American taliban dude is a military target in afganistan. So if gets blown up or shot in the face, that is a risk that comes with the job.

However I would expect that if I were employed by pantex selling nuclear information to Iran or compromising military secrets during war I could be subject to violent response. If out of the us, would be surprised if it did not happen.

Reality is what it is.

[BunkerHill24]

22. "We are protected by the constitution."

:rofl:

[Pavulon]

26. Hey, there are lots of things you can do to arrange for someone

to punch your ticket. He met the bar. And for that effort I congratulate him and wish him a happy reincarnation as some other animals smelly shit.

[The Stranger]

34. The Constitution isn't a magical force field that is turned on for only some people.

I am afraid that you are walking around with a bizarre and twisted perversion of what the whole thing is based on.

It is based on Enlightenment thinkers' realization that there are certain inalienable rights that are inherent in man (or woman). These rights cannot be taken without due process of law. The social contract includes a restraint placed on government to preserve those rights. It is not a magical force field that is turned off and on for certain sets of people.

[The Stranger]

31. Here you seem to be supporting the killing because of his stated "position."

And that, even without of any actual proven connection to a specific crime.

[Doctor_J]

67. Tom Coburn and many of the repukes are praying for Robert Byrd's death

Are they fair game?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

33. You say that as if

we weren't already his buddies targets.

[depakid]

25. Figured that guy's life wasn't worth a wooden nickle

once his name popped up in connection to Ft. Hood.

Didn't take to long to be proven right on that one.

[Pavulon]

27. Not worth killing meatpuppets in Afghanistan..

the conflict is won with money and logistics. Making those people go bye bye is more meaningful than some goat poker in Afghanistan.

[Brickbat]

23. There's that convenient 30 deaths again.

Where's that thread about how it's always 30 deaths in these strikes?

[Pavulon]

28. 6 car loads worth of pud pullers

that is how they count. How many guys can fit in a hilux is the basic number. Not like they are looking at dental records.

[pinniped]

29. Linked, believed to have died, and suspected to be dead.

Sounds pretty definitive to me.

Why not throw the Scorpio killer in there as well.

[EFerrari]

38. And Bigfoot.

[StarfarerBill]

39. Deaths in Yemen raid on al-Qaeda

Source: Al Jazeera

At least 30 suspected al-Qaeda fighters have been killed in a dawn air raid by Yemeni forces in the eastern Yemeni province of Shabwa.

Among those thought to have been killed in the raid early on Thursday was Anwar al-Awlaki, a Muslim preacher, who according to a Yemeni security official was linked to a man who killed 13 people at a US army base in Texas.

"Anwar al-Awlaki is suspected to be dead (in the air raid)," the unnamed Yemeni official was quoted by the Reuters news agency as saying.

According to US officials, al-Awlaki had contacts to Major Nidal Malik Hasan, a US soldier, who shot dead 13 people at the Fort Hood army base in the US state of Texas.

Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/12/200912246820930737.html

[EFerrari]

40. What a huge crock of shit.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

48. How do you know?

[dixiegrrrrl]

41. They killed Kenny!!!!!

[Goldstein1984]

42. America

making friends all over the world.

Regardless of who we have pull the trigger, the world knows who's behind the "War on Terror."

[Mudoria]

43. Reading comprehension ftw

"At least 30 suspected al-Qaeda fighters have been killed in a dawn air raid by Yemeni forces in the eastern Yemeni province of Shabwa."

[StarfarerBill]

45. A previous Yemeni attack, with civilian casualties, was aided by American cruise missiles:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/23/report_obama_ordered_us_military_strike

And US and Saudi intelligence was given to the Yemenis prior to this attack, according to the AP report:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091224/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_yemen_al_qaida

Also note that we've given the Yemeni government $70 million in military aid this year, as opposed to none last year.

[Goldstein1984]

46. I wrote:

no matter who pulls the trigger

[Crzyrussell]

44. According to the article...

"Yemen's government has been battling al-Qaeda in the country at the same time as dealing with a Shia uprising in the north and rising secessionist sentiment in the south."

Sounds like Yemen is taking care of their own business.

[Goldstein1984]

47. With our assistance

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

49. As we have a mutual enemy, what's your particular problem with that?

[Goldstein1984]

51. Only that we're 5% of the world's population, but we do 50% of the "defense"

spending.

We're killing innocent civilians.

We're conducting targeted killings of criminals without trials.

In my opinion, this is empire, not defense. The killings are illegal.

Since Americans seems to be so comfortable with the practice, I'm going to trust history to put the actors in all the correct categories.

In the written journal I will be leaving my grandchildren, I tell them we've become an empire led by war criminals.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

53. A question for you

As it's the Yemeni military conducting these airstrikes, on Yemeni soil, against a known terrorist organization which is attempting to destabilize the government, where is the line between legal and illegal being crossed? Be specific, if you would.

[Goldstein1984]

54. U.S. Involvement

According to a DemocracyNow! report, President Obama ordered cruise missile strikes. The Yemeni strikes were conducted with U.S. military supplied hardware and intelligence. Non-combatants are being killed.

What I find wrong is that we, as a nation, are using military force to solve all of our problems.

It isn't just Yemen, it isn't even just the Middle East.

If we disagree on this, there isn't any point in arguing.

Specifically: We are not in a declared war, and we are killing criminals without trial.
Specifically: We're killing non-combatants.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

55. Well...

While you're right in stating that some of the strikes have been U.S. while others have been Yemeni, even the U.S. strikes were condoned by the Yemeni government, so again I'll ask, where is the line between what's legal and illegal being crossed?

Secondly, I would argue that we're not using military force to solve all of our problems - far from it. On, undoubtedly, two of the biggest issues we're facing, Iran and North Korea's nuclear ambitions, we've consistentedly worked to promote dialogue and to pursue non-military solutions. Even on the two wars we're engaged in, it's becoming clear that they can't be won strictly militarily and that talks with some enemy forces will be necessary in reaching an end and allowing our troops to withdraw.

Third, we're not waging war on Yemen, we're working with its government to put down a common enemy.

[Goldstein1984]

56. We're still killing innocent civilians

So a bank robber can point to a few banks he hasn't robbed as proof he's done nothing illegal.

All of our negotiations are carried out with the implication that "nothing is off the table."

We're just going to have to disagree on this. I'm much less comfortable with our justifications for killing than you are.

I studied counterinsurgency in the Marine Corps. The tactics we're using are making more enemies than we are killing.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

57. Apples and oranges

We're not firing cruise missiles at bank robbers though, are we? We're firing them at al-Qaeda meetings. Allow me to clarify: one steals money, the other sends car bombs into crowded markets, passenger jets into skyscrapers, etc. In other words, apples and oranges. Though you may be right, perhaps we should agree to disagree on this point?

Secondly, how are you determining that we're making more enemies than we're killing? Because, as it stands today, al-Qaeda's leadership appears struggling for funds and trapped, to some degree or another, in a two front war in AfPak
.

[Goldstein1984]

58. Apples and Oranges???

We're talking human lives. We're going to have to agree to disagree.

When you kill civilians, their friends and relatives become your enemies. This needn't be quantified, it's intuitive.

I really recommend that you read Andrew Bacevich's "The New American Militarism."

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

59. Yes, apples and oranges

How could comparing a bank robber to an al-Qaeda member be called anything else?

Secondly, all I'm saying is...these conclusions should be based on the available facts. Are al-Qaeda's ranks flooding? I would argue no, they certainly aren't in AfPak and they're having serious issues gaining a foothold anywhere else (Iraq, Somalia, or Yemen). Are its coffers overflowing with donations? Again, I'd argue no, as Zahawiri has been forced to publicly make appeals for money.

[Goldstein1984]

74. Here are the apples and oranges

Terrorism is a crime, unless it is committed as part of a declared war. In spite of the campaign slogan, "The War of Terror," which is about as meaningful as "The War on Drugs," we are not in a declared war. We're a nation of laws, although that is becoming tenuous. If there are Al Qaeda member linked to deaths in the United States, we should be indicting them and seeking extradition.

If you approve of us hunting down and killing suspected terrorists, you have a very fine line to cross before you approve of hunting down suspected bank robbers hiding out in the Rockies with Predator drones.

This discussion that you and I are having here, I had a dozen times with my Right Wing oil industry friends who bought into the whole Bush/Cheney American Exeptionalism, extraordinary rendition, torture scenario. When Obama stepped up the targeted killing in Afghanistan and Pakistan, killing dozens of civilians along with every handful of "terrorists," I knew I have voted for the wrong person.

You may distinguish between crime and terror, and not between terror and war, and you may think we have the right to send our military all over the globe killing anyone who poses a threat to the U.S. and our "interests," but I disagree.

We just disagree.

I'm bumping up my charitable contributions to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

We, as a nation, are not what we pretend to be, especially what we pretend to be this time of year.

The last word is yours if you want it.

[pinniped]

50. Someone noticed the number of dead suspected al-Qaeda, Taliban, or whatever....

fighters is routinely set at 30.

So, these bad dudes were supposedly having a meeting. Did they pass around the solid gold AT&T telephone like in the Godfather?

[EFerrari]

60. I just remembered reading that if it's over 30, the SecDef has to sign off.

I'm sorry, now I don't remember where I read that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. 30 bad guys and how many innocent civilians??

[harun]

66. It is always 30, look at past articles from extra-judicial murders being committed all over the Wrld

[AlphaCentauri]

72. So the Fort Hood attack was a terrorist act perpetrated by Bin and friends

thats the message from this military action.

[buckrogers1965]

73. We used to be a nation of laws

Now we just assassinate anyone we disagree with, civilian casualties be damned.

Aren't we such a great people. /s

[ShortnFiery]

75. The Family Members of this Imam DENY that he's dead. However, our M$M would never lie to us ...

would they? :eyes: