Congress raises debt ceiling to $12.4 trillion

[The Northerner]

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON – The Senate voted on Thursday to raise the ceiling on the government debt to $12.4 trillion, a massive increase over the current limit and a political problem that President Barack Obama has promised to address next year.

The Senate's rare Christmas Eve vote, 60-39, follows House passage last week and raises the debt ceiling by $290 billion. The vote split mainly down party lines, with Democrats voting to raise the limit and Republicans voting against doing so. There was one defection on each side, by senators whose seats will be on the ballot next year: GOP Sen. George Voinovich of Ohio and Democratic Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana.

"I would not support raising the debt ceiling because Congress has not adopted a credible process to restrain spending and eliminate red ink," Bayh said a statement after the vote.

The bill permits the Treasury Department to issue enough bonds to fund the government's operations and programs until mid-February. The Senate will vote again on the issue Jan. 20.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091224/ap_on_bi_ge/us_debt_ceiling

[Posteritatis]

1. What's the point of a debt ceiling if it's simply raised whenever reached? (nt)

[truedelphi]

4. Forgive me if this be an ignorant reply, but it

Keeps the construction crews employed!

Jobs creation and all that.

[marshall]

24. It's all about getting re-elected

Congress has never had an electorate that had access to such a great amount of information concurrently with its being voted on.

[quakerboy]

25. I suspect the answer lies in who created it

vs who is responsible for abiding by it.

Time changes many things. I think that one could validly ask many questions about many parts of our system of governance. Such as, whats the point in electing representation to pass laws when we have the technology that would enable us to do it ourselves without the middle man.

[winyanstaz]

2. K & R...my god...we will NEVER be able to repay these debts...

Our children's children will be paying for this mess...damn it all to hell!

[Hydra]

5. The debts aren't built to be paid off

If we ever did go debt neutral, it would kill a lot of interest based moneymaking. We can't have that.

At some point we may get sane about this and get a different system, but don't hold your breath.

[Goldstein1984]

3. I'm going to be spending Christmas with my grandchildren

I'll try to find a way to tell them.

This isn't just talk, or a rhetorical threat: My wife and I are about ten years from retirement. We are vigorously searching for other countries in which to live in retirement. One goal is to find a place where we might convince our daughter and grandchildren to join us. I genuinely fear that it will not be long before this country will be no place for working people to live.

[HughBeaumont]

46. "Not be long"?

For the past 28 years, this economy has been primarily built on war/defense, pharmaceuticals, insurance, debt investment, technology and risky financial instruments; with the exception of technology, all unstable, speculative sectors that concentrate wealth and security on the top of the chain.

Pretty much every social program has either been cut or de-funded, resulting in poor schools, crumbling infrastructure and a social safety net that isn't worth the paper it's non-existent plan is printed on. With the exception of the Clinton years, taxes on the wealthy have been lower and lower with each passing year.

Manufacturing, Automotive and General Industry in the US has gone the way of the Dodo, resulting in several million displaced workers, many of whom will be experiencing long periods of un/under-employment. College costs have skyrocketed while college degrees (thanks to there being substantially less jobs available than college-educated workers that can fill them) have become all but worthless.

Our corporations have been overrun by Friedmanite bean-counters who refuse to veer from this predatory plan that has failed the overall economy for that same amount of time (you know, unless you happen to be well-monied . .. then it works out just fine). Incomes of the wealthy have increased anywhere from 29 to 1000 percent while the average worker makes, in real dollars, the same income he/she did in 1973 (this same condition was prevalent in the Great Depression as well),

Job security no longer exists in many American occupational sectors, which now require massive amounts of expensive training to even get entry to. Offshore out/in-sourcing has replaced paying American citizens good wages and has jeopardized the future of at least 14 million jobs by 2015 according to one survey.

I dunno, maybe we should completely repeal taxes on the rich. I mean, we would be walking everywhere and there'd be no libraries or social services of any kind, but at least when WE got rich, WE wouldn't have to pay taxes . . . right? :sarcasm:

[fascisthunter]

6. that's ok... average Americans will pay it all back

isn't that the grand plan?

[clarence swinney]

12. Pay it Back

Only the top 20% will ever pay off our Debt.

They get the Income and have the Wealth.

In 2008--Rich paid 30% of Total Income in Federal-State-Local Taxes.

Middle Class paid about the same 30%.

30% of $50,00 hurts a standard of living so much more than 30% on $10,000,000.

From 1980 to now Rich have taken America.

Back to good old 50s 60s 70s

[e-mail]

[No Elephants]

35. The plan seems to be that average Americans will make the rich so rich that they won't mind

paying more taxes.


or,

"Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's trickle down."

[Hulk]

7. NOW is the time to repeal the tax break to the wealthy in this country!

It didn't seem to do much good for the middle class, poverty class, or anyone but THEMSELVES. Time to repeal the SOB, and let's start paying off this national debt. Go back to the tax rates of the 60-70's...before ronnie alzheimer destroyed our society as we were making our way to better times.

F*CK the rich!! When you have nothing but dessert, it's time to take a few things off the table.

[clarence swinney]

11. Repeal Tax Break for Rich

Reinstate Estate Tax to get an Equality back in our system

Get Corporations to pay Fair as in past. Top rate is 35% yet they pay 16%on profits

Unearned Income tax at 28%. It is disgusting to tax 15% on sitting on butt and 28% on coal mine workers.

Redistribute Wealth from 20% owning 93%.

Reagan gave rich a 60% Income Tax Cut in his 750B cut.
Bush 1700B gave the top 2.7% four times as much as bottom 80%.

Folks! Do you know who many Billionaires were created with 2450 Billion of Tax Cuts?

Clinton increased 1.2% at top by 250 Billion the screaming has not stopped.


[e-mail]

[alp227]

20. Will anyone care about those who cry "Wah I can't afford that yacht cuz of Big Bad Govt

Honestly, we've been spoiling the rich way too long. Why can't rich Americans be Germans?

[Psephos]

29. Maybe the people who build yachts?

But screw them, they're just collateral damage.

[No Elephants]

34. Realistically, will a tax increase actually be the difference between having a yacht and not having

a yacht?

BTW, these hypothetical yachtbuilders---which country are they in?

[Psephos]

37. There's actually a good set of real-world data on this, no hypotheticals needed.

http://openlibrary.org/b/OL15459629M/effect_of_the_luxury_excise_tax_on_the_sale_of_luxury_boats

The effects are counter to the intentions of the legislation. Quite.

The first Bush and Congress in 1990 raised excise taxes on luxury goods including expensive cars, fur coats, yachts, jewelry, small airplanes. (They also doubled the beer tax.) Guess how many jobs were lost before the taxes were quietly rolled back?

Seriously. How many jobs did this tax cost, and how much revenue did it actually raise vs. what was projected? (There are plenty of non-agenda sources on this.)

Meanwhile, here's a Google cache of the first of three pages of yacht builders and parts suppliers in the United States.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:N8vkctsHQKYJ:www.kellysearch.com/us-product-105917.html+yacht+manufacturers+united+states&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I don't understand the idea that luxury goods should be taxed so severely that sales drop. Economically speaking, when wealthy people spend money, they put their wealth back into the economy, which creates/maintains jobs. Lots of jobs. That also generates tax revenue - not only sales tax (which can't be gamed as easily as income tax), but also payroll taxes, corporate taxes, etc. Afterward, use of such goods supports service and facilities jobs going forward. We should be encouraging wealthy people to part with their money so it can be re-used in other people's paychecks.

Actually, I do understand it. It's not about economics, it's about emotions.

[winyanstaz]

8. Merry Christmas and Happy debts America!!

12 trillion divided by about 100 million American households (not including the ones in foreclosure) comes out to ...

$120,000 per American household, plus accruing interest, and no sign of a slowdown of the Congress' plunge into debt.

$120,000 per American household.

Merry Christmas!!!!

[Fearless]

9. He promises he promises... when will he do?

[Sultana]

27. ...........

Such a dumbass statement, hater!!!!!!!!

[Fearless]

31. A well informed opinion.

:eyes:

[clarence swinney]

10. wall street of america from united states of america

Rape Of The Middle Class

EMPIRE DESTRUCTION

1980 to 2007

20 YEARS OF 3 CONSERVATIVE PRESIDENTS
18 years Conservative Senate
12 years Conservative House
6 years Total Conservative Control

Redistribution of Wealth to top 20%.

Folk! It is downhill slide for Middle Class.

FACTS---numbers rounded-

1946--1% owned 30% of Total Wealth

1980—20%--a 33% decline due to Estate Tax and High Top Income Tax Rate.

thence cometh conservatism

1989-36%

80% Increase in 8 years of Reaganism

1993-47%

2007--20% owned 93% of Total non home Financial Wealth

80% owned equity in homes.

Most major corporations are owned by WALL STREET RICH MEN CASINO

In 1945, corporations paid 35.4% of federal revenues and 7.4% in 2003

In 2000, 45% of corporations with revenue over 50 million paid no federal tax

Five Wall Street Banks own 75% of all Bank Deposits in America. 5.

Two own 20%.

Think that is not POWER???

FACT CHECK

In 8 years of Bush with 6 years of Total Control

They (wall street rich) created a Net New Jobs of 3000 per month.

Why? That is NET. You take the new jobs created and subtract the ones sent to China, etc

3000! Wow!

Bush took over after Clinton had created 237,000 Net New Jobs per month.

Clinton left Bush a spending of 1830 B Per Year.

Bush doubled it to 3600 B.

Bush inherited a 5700B Debt from Clinton. He took it to 11,500B

20 years of 3 conservative presidents did this horrible thing.

Took the Debt of less than 1000B after 200 years and added on 8000B.

In 2009 they are spinning big time to blame Obama for huge debt.

Conservatives will spend millions to coverup their Big Recession.

Much of that 8000B Debt add-on went to WALL STREET GAMBLERS.

The people do not know what has happened to them.

Forbes list of 400 Richest reveals how many became Billionaires via corporate
takeovers and Hedge Gambling

Right Wingers yell Rich Pay most of taxes.

Income Taxes!Yes! They have most of the money.

Yet! Conservatives transferred much of taxation from Rich to Middle Class. Reagan voiding REVENUE SHARING a disaster for Middle Class where taxes were transferred from Rich Income taxes to Middle Class in State and Local Taxes. Was it by design?

Was it a Designed Act of taxation transfer by Conservatives.

In 2008 the Middle Class paid 30% of nominal Income in Federal-State-Local Taxes.
Top 10% paid 30% also. Progressive tax system?

Social Security Tax Increase in 1983 was it designed to hit the Middle Class and ease on the rich?

Greenspan + Reagan. 6.2% Tax on Middle Class. One earns $50,000 pays 6.2%. Earns $1,000,00 pays 6.4%. Earns $10,000,000 pays 1/10th of 1%. By design to keep rich rich?

Was Destruction of S&Ls a deliberate act of wealth transfer from 400 local investors to individual Rich on Wall Street?

Key actor Michael Milken became a Multiple Billionaire with income of 550 Million in one year from raiding S&L deposits (plus) for his Rich Corporate Raiders on Wall Street.

Raiders like Perelman and Ichan became multiple Billionaires.
Sweat of Brow? Ho Ho.

Bush I had to borrow 140 Billion on 40 year bonds to pay for the raids on S&L's by Wall Streeters.
140B creates many Billionaires and Millionaires. Depositors money was used by those Corporate Raiders and bankrupted the S&L then the government pay off to depositors by Federal Deposit Insurance created Debt for Middle Class.

RAPE OF MIDDLE CLASS 1980-2007

Same ideology gave us Great Depression now Great Recession.

It is not a Depression due to:

Democratic Social Safety Nets such as
Social Security and Medicare

Only the uninformed vote to send conservatives to Washington.

Some type of Revolt will take place in next decade.

Democrats will continue to allow Conservatives with their huge right wing talk shows spreading lies to blame them.

Democrats need a national Megaphone informing all the people as to what has been done and how they have been RAPED by a few million RICH on Wall Street who have taken their Wealth.

I ask one thing.

PROVE ME WRONG. With numbers and facts not usual vile name calling

[e-mail]
author-Lifeaholic-Workaholic to Lifeaholic success
author-unpublished
All American Party-How Democrats created a great successful Middle Class and how Conservatives are determined to destroy it

[Vidar]

13. Why not make it an even quadrillion? I'm sure thay can fritter it away.

[Orrex]

14. Well, now I don't feel so bad about overdrawing my bank account by $2.18 last Friday.

It almost makes the $40 service charge seem worthwhile, somehow.

[SandWalker1984]

15. A trillion here, a trillion there.....pretty soon it adds up to some real money!

:argh:

[bhikkhu]

16. When it hit 3 trillion, I was stockpiling toilet paper and drinking water

Now the whole thing is so far from reality I don't know what to think. There are plenty of more tractable problems out there to worry about.

[Capt. America]

17. This much debt will ruin the value of the dollar. Also, Obama said his policies would be

"debt-neutral", what happened with that? Time to repeal Bush tax cuts and its time for ALL of us to start actually paying for our wars. (PS: did anyone remember that Shrub said the Iraqis would pay for our war via oil revenues?)

[alp227]

18. What's worse, a flexible debt ceiling or blatant bankruptcy?

Bankrupt States - opening in theaters on December 21, 2012!

[Djarun]

What comes after trillion?

[rasputin1952]

21. quadrillion...

I don't like the trillion part...that's 1000 trillion dollars...an almost incomprehensible number...:hi:

Welcome to DU!

[shadowknows69]

19. Great, now the Dems own Afghanistan, a shitty HCR bill and more deficit.

With the help of a willing corporate owned media 2010 and 2012 could be a catastrophe.

[TheWatcher]

38. Since neither party seems to represent the interests of We The People

You could say it's already a disaster.

The only question is, which side of the false paradigm will control the disaster.

[FarLeftFist]

22. Why stop there.

[keep_it_real]

23. So suppose we raise it to 50 trillion?

[Suji to Seoul]

26. Okay, Evan: "I would not support raising the debt ceiling because Congress has not adopted a. . ."

. . .credible process to restrain spending and eliminate red ink,"

We'll start by eliminating your Senate seat!

Asshat DINO

[Festivito]

28. 2.5% is a "massive increase" ?

ok

[Psephos]

30. That's for three months. Do the math. n/t

[Festivito]

32. So, Bush had "massive increases" averaging over 8% per year.

And, this 2.4% increase is from Feb 17, 2009 to now. Granted it may only last until Feb, 2010, yet, that's only a projection and it's only 2.5%. A linear projection of Obama's first budget's actual borrowing projects to increase the debt by less than 7% which is less than Bush's average of 8%. That's the math.

[Psephos]

40. You fail math.

You think you can hide this fiasco behind percentages? The absolute amounts are what matter. Why do you think our brilliant Congressional leaders didn't just bump the limit up by 1.8 trillion, which they need? Because it SURE LOOKS FUCKING BAD DOESN'T IT?

Why do you think the Chinese called Geithner and Obama and told them they're going to start turning off the money pipe? You have no idea what kind of trouble we're in if the US dollar loses reserve status. Then the US Treasury will have to start paying actual market rates on interest on the debt, instead of the joke 2 or 3 percent it currently enjoys. That alone will bring the government to its knees.

And WTF does * have to do with it? I cursed that mofo for eight years. Now you want to use him to justify more of the same idiocy, except worse? A pox on any who think like you.

Wake up. This is how crack addicts end up dead. They burn through every credit card, savings account, and their kid's piggy banks, then turn to eBay, pawnshop loans, and as they get more desperate, start "borrowing" from dear old Mom and Sis and finally the 7-11 in a ski mask. Near the end they can be seen stripping copper pipes out of abandoned buildings to sell for scrap, before they finally crash, burn, and die.

[Festivito]

42. Your Republican-spin talking-point math FAILS.

You try to compare Bush's no-war-included budgets with Obama's totally-inclusive budget -- and then claim my math is wrong.

Oh, you're funny, but not in a good way.

That kind of math, Republican spin math, failed US already.

And, where does this source-unattributed "actual" come from, the part not labeled as either CBO or WH? RNC perhaps, or some remaining Republican mole holdout in a secret location?

I'll still use debt to the penny on a daily work-day basis. It doesn't take to the spinning of budget numbers, or make actuals look a quarter of what they really are.

You can copy and paste the results to your MS calculator directly and make your own math with it. See if you like that math.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

What I posted is correct.

[Psephos]

43. It comes from the Washington Post, who got it from CBO and White House OMB you sap.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.html

You are the tool who sounds like a repug. Exactly like the repugs I gritted my teeth through for eight years. Ideologically blind protectors of this monstrous spending binge will be the actual ruin of our progressive plans. When all the discretionary cash in the budget is spent paying interest, it's game over. That day is coming the moment the Treasury has to pay the same risk-rated interest on its bonds that the rest of the world has to pay.

Meanwhile, from the very site you linked, the numbers come up just as I posted.

You aren't right. You're not even wrong. You're lost.

[Festivito]

44. WP DID NOT label source, only calling it 'Actuals' (of what?)

It's not the actual deficit created, it's not the public deficit alone.

It could be the actual expected budget deficit that never was corrected for actual spending. That would be a good Republican trick. And laughable for using it as you did.


09/30/09 7,551,861,558,736.77 4,357,967,444,774.98 11,909,829,003,511.75
09/30/08 5,808,691,665,403.71 4,216,033,231,508.78 10,024,724,896,912.49
'09 - 08 1,743,169,893,333.06 _,141,934,213,266.20 _1,885,104,106,599.30
Which is right with the CBO numbers, good for the CBO.

Now, on to '08 - 07 for the representation of so-called actuals.
09/30/08 5,808,691,665,403.71 4,216,033,231,508.78 10,024,724,896,912.49
09/28/07 5,049,305,502,926.48 3,958,347,869,336.00 _9,007,653,372,262.48 674
'08 - 07 _,759,386,162,477.23 _,257,685,362,172.78 _1,017,071,524,649.92
What's your WP (CIA-mucked WP) graphy-waphy showing? Maybe 500B$ deficit. INSTEAD OF ONE TRILLION!

CON-crap spin. What numbers did you get?

(Hit the post button by accident as I was moving in last lines.)

[Festivito]

45. Here are the numbers that graph should resemble:

Notice how they skillfully removed the Clinton years -- so telling. Then they had to skew the budget data they did present so they just did not label its source. Skillful again, if you like that kind of spin.

FISCAL YEAR DEBT CHANGE, Sep 30 prior year to Sep 30 named year:
(One "* " for each 40B$ reached)
FY1994 +0,281,261,026,873.94 ------------* * * * * * * WJC
FY1995 +0,281,232,990,696.07 ------------* * * * * * * WJC
FY1996 +0,250,828,038,426.34 ------------* * * * * * WJC
FY1997 +0,188,335,072,261.61 ------------* * * * WJC
FY1998 +0,113,046,997,500.28 ------------* * WJC
FY1999 +0,130,077,892,735.81 ------------* * * WJC
FY2000 +0,017,907,308,253.43 ------------WJC
FY2001 +0,133,285,202,313.20 ------------* * * C&B
FY2002 +0,420,772,553,397.10 ------------* * * * * * * * * * GWB
FY2003 +0,554,995,097,146.46 ------------* * * * * * * * * * * * * GWB
FY2004 +0,595,821,633,586.70 ------------* * * * * * * * * * * * * * GWB
FY2005 +0,553,656,965,393.18 ------------* * * * * * * * * * * * * GWB
FY2006 +0,574,264,237,491.73 ------------* * * * * * * * * * * * * * GWB
FY2007 +0,500,679,473,047.25 ------------* * * * * * * * * * * * GWB
FY2008 +1,017,071,524,649.92 ------------* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * GWB
FY2009 +1,885,104,106,599.30 ------------* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * B&O
FY2010 +0,192,774,424,996.00 ------------* * * * BHO (as of about 12-23-2009)
Endof10 +0,837,650,775,280.24 ------------* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * BHO Linear Projection

The CONs conned you. It's what they do.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. And it only costs $383B a year in interest to maintain.

That's 5, count 'em 5, single-payer health plans every year in interest alone.

:think:





http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm

[Yupster]

39. It will be an utter disaster

when interest rates start to rise.

We're paying almost $ 400,000,000,000 in interest now per year. That's at 3 % interest. Wait till interest rates go to 6 %. Then interest on the debt will be the number one slice of the budget pie.

[Psephos]

41. Exactly. This truth cannot be run from, hidden from, or wished away. n/t

[ozone_man]

47. What a clever idea!

Debt service is now the biggest part of our budget!

[Igel]

36. Nasty.

* increases to debt ceiling, about $5.6 trillion.

This Congress alone, in the last 11 months, has raised it by over $1 trillion. People forget that in response that the stimulus package also had a debt ceiling increase. Oddly, *'s profligate spending was the only reason that the $789 billion stimulus package contained a $800 billion debt ceiling increase.