'Pay addicts not to have children'

[emad]

From BBC News:

Women drug addicts should be paid to take contraception to stop them having children, according to a drugs expert. Professor Neil McKeganey, from the Centre for Drug Misuse Research, said there was a crisis in meeting the needs of children born to drug using mothers. The professor has called for a system where women are paid to take long-term contraception to prevent pregnancies. Campaign group Scotland Against Drugs called for more support services and warned against infringing human rights.
Prof McKeganey surveyed 1,000 drug users and found that more than 60% of addicted mothers and 85% of addicted fathers no longer looked after their children.

He said the situation must change and blamed the "chaotic lifestyles" of addicts for the problem and its effects on children. His research suggests that more than 50,000 children in Scotland have been exposed to drug addiction at home. It found a number had even woken up to find their parents had died from an overdose while others had had their Christmas presents sold to pay for drugs. "It does look as if, in many instances, female drug users are becoming pregnant not because they want to but because of the sheer chaos of their lifestyle," he said.

He said that in parts of the United States, female drug users were given government cash to take long-term contraception, such as injections. And he warned: "We now have such a crisis in Scotland that we ought to give active consideration to paying female drug users to take long-term contraception." Professor McKeganey also suggested that drug addicts who were already parents could be given a year to kick the habit or face the prospect of having their children put up for adoption.

Scotland Against Drugs said it recognised there was a problem but said children in these situations must be supported. It has called on more education and help for mothers and improved services for looking after their children. Director Alistair Ramsey said: "I think it's a bit draconian to suggest that contraception injections should be an option when it's not known in advance whether the recipient woman would be a good or a bad parent." Catholic Church spokesman Peter Kearney said: "If you are going to sterilise drug-addicted women, why stop there? Why not sterilise alcoholics? "This is social engineering on a massive scale and it's completely unacceptable." A spokesman for the Scottish Executive said it was well aware of the risks to the children of drug using parents. He said: "We believe that the needs of the child should be paramount and have published guidelines for service providers entitled Getting our Priorities Right. "Along with other UK departments, we are currently considering our response to the Hidden Harm report on the children of drug using parents."

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3508084.stm

[boobooday]

1. Pay Republicans not to have children!

I'd chip in a few bucks on that one.



http://www.wgoeshome.com

[Isere]

4. Don't you know

Republicans don't have sex!

[Fridays Child]

15. Or they could just stop paying whoever is...

...knockin' 'em up.

[SOS]

2. Does this initiative include alcohol?

If not, it's a joke. Here are some US stats on alcohol from ABC News:

Alcohol (drunkeness) is a factor in:

70% of child abuse cases
52% of rapes
86% of murders
75% of domestic violence

[bobthedrummer]

3. Great point! It should include alcohol-it is an AODA problem.

[abelenkpe]

5. this is idiotic, and so Victorian

Next they will be suggesting that drug addicts be rendered unable to conceive. Drug addiction is a sickness. One that can be cured in a nurturing environment. To pay a woman with a drug problem not to have children would only increase her drug problem, not solve her problems.

[amazona]

6. many addicts claim it's a genetic problem

As do many alcoholics. A friend of mine who is active in AA is adamant that alcoholism/drug addiction is caused by the genes. If so, ultimately the only answer is to stop people with this genetic defect from breeding, as only a tiny proportion of addicts are ever cured even through AA and almost none are cured by any other treatment. I don't necessarily agree that there is good evidence for this argument -- "it's one of the tenets of AA" is not a scientific argument as far as I'm concerned -- but a lot of people with lots of experience in drug/alcohol abuse do believe it.

Is it wrong to compensate people with genetic defects if they agree to be sterilized? It isn't immediately obvious to me why it would be wrong.

Or if the population has too many people for the number of jobs in its future, maybe be fair and offer a cash incentive to EVERYONE who agrees to be sterilized?

Obviously I am floundering in the dark on this issue but I don't think we can assume all drug addicts/alcoholics are in agreement that being paid not to have children is a harmful thing.

[maxanne]

8. please

It is true there is a biological link between heredity and alcoholism. If one has a parent or grandparent with alcoholism/addiction one is 4 times more likely to develop it ones self. However - this isn't a guarantee. Not everyone who has the genes will develop the disease.There are also rogue alcoholics that show up in families with no history of alcoholism.

Perhaps instead of the FINAL SOLUTION you're proposing, we could work on treatment and education.

[koopie57]

24. In my family (extended also)

alchololism runs rampant and numerous of my relatives have received treatment. I would say about 90 percent are still clean and sober from that treatment. My husband had treatment about 20 years ago and is still clean and sober. But, this generation of kids (mine and my brothers) do not drink, nor do they have any desire to drink. We have mentioned many times to them that they have the predisposition to have problems with alcohol and if they never take the first drink they will never have a problem. But they just don't seem to have the desire. What a wonderful blessing if this burden can pass them by.

[yardwork]

14. It is NOT a tenet of AA

that alcoholism is genetic.

Neither the twelve steps nor the twelve principles say anything about genetics.

There are millions of recovering alcoholics in AA and they have millions of different opinions. AA itself has no opinion on anything (that is one of the tenets) - its sole purpose is to help people recover from alcoholism.

[wuushew]

7. The woman is not being forced to take them

If they are offered free of charge, provide a societal good and coincide with her personal needs I see no problem.

Also there is nothing to say that a drug addict cannot get contraceptives AND treatment simultaneously.

[DrWeird]

9. I guess contraceptives are better than sterilization.

That some american nazis were pushing a couple of years ago.

Still, awfully close to eugenics.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maxanne]

11. hmmm

"if your race relies on addicts for it's future?" Tell me - what race is it that you're so concerned about, Bark Bark Bark?

[Ellen Forradalom]

12. Somehow I'm doubt he's referring to the human race

[Bark Bark Bark]

16. Edited Repost

(Okay, my original post was removed, but not before a couple of folks tried to portray me as a Klansman. The post I replied to referred to a program which an African-American activist group also described as "eugenics"--"eradication of the Black race," no less--when in fact all it did was prevent the births of crack-addicted infants, and offer treatment for participants, REGARDLESS OF RACE. Once the program became old news, this "activist" group and all the other critics also faded out, having provided no solutions of their own, only obstruction of others'. I have a severe dislike of that sort of nonsense--and any sort of knee-jerk race-card-playing--and I should have been clearer about that.)

Here's the edited version of the deleted post, without the fodder for accusing me of being David Duke or Adolph Hitler:

"There was a program that offered addicts money to have a REVERSIBLE procedure that would prevent them from squirting out crack babies for the rest of society to treat and care for.(Important word in caps there.) That's not (permanent) sterilization, nor eugenics."

[DrWeird]

17. Actually, that's an entirely racist policy.

The only real difference between crack cocaine and regular cocaine is that the former is more common in the black community. You don't refer to white women as "squirting our powder cocaine babies." Even though the babies have the same problems of low birth weight and addiction. In fact, babies born with fetal alcohol syndrome have just as bad health problems as "crack babies" but you don't hear about that. The whole "crack baby" thing is just racist propaganda.

So if you're offering sterilization for crack addicts and not coke addicts you're basically a racist.

Furthermore, the idea that a crack cocaine addicted woman can give proper consent for sterilization when you're offering her money is ludicrous.

And then there's the class issue of offering a woman $200 bucks. Obviously the poor woman will take it, while the rich Barbara Bush type coke addicts won't.

[Bark Bark Bark]

18. Actually

I could play this word game as well, by declaring that you're smearing the African-American community by equating "crack addict" and "Black." But let's focus on the realities:

(1) It's not even sterilization--it's contraception. I'm not sure what part of "reversible" is so hard to understand. ...Unless one is assuming that participants are doomed and utterly beyond help, that they will never, ever be in a position to have the procedure undone, in which case we're getting back to who's a really the racist here... Would free condoms be racist?

(2) You know, I'm actually uncertain if the program was limited to crack addiction. Such a thing might be legally troublesome to be sure. Even if it were, the argument that crack addiction treatment is somehow racist because it's exclusionary of other addiction is ridiculous. By such logic, hangover medicines are racist because they're related to alcohol but not hard drugs. (And remind me again--who uses the hard drugs?)

(3) Yes, let's see someone challenge a legal, sane adult's right of consent--personally or in court--on the basis that they're being paid. That'd be hilarious. One can't even make the anti-abortionist's argument here; it didn't harm anyone, it simply prevented a sick person from conceiving a sick baby, and was voluntary.

(4) Repeating again: the program
(a) did NOT involve permanent sterilization.
(b) was open to, and participated in voluntarily by, women of all races would had the right to consent to, or refuse, the procedure.
(c) provided treatment for addiction in addition to the procedure.

...and NOBODY getting their back up over this EVER offered a better alternative; just the usual vague stuff about "treatment and services" (see 4c above) and the wild assertions of racist conspiracy and "eugenics." It seems some would rather see everyone suffer than have their easily-offended sensibilities hurt.

It doesn't matter, really. The program's long gone now.

Just don't try to paint me as a racist.

[rustydog]

13. Why the class warfare? Why addicts?

Pre-abortion...sounds like something the church would disapprove of.

just imagine if Barbara Bush had been paid not to have kids.
558 American soldiers would still be alive today. Over 20,000 American soldiers wouldn't be horribly wounded and disabled. Tens of thousands of Iraqis would be alive today.


"...And I think to my self, what a wonderful world. Oh yeaaaa."

[zanana]

19. First, they'll outlaw abortion...

Then they'll jail any woman for not taking proper care of herself during pregnancy. How far will it go?

[tlcandie]

20. Here's a look at strict abortion laws....

http://www.linktv.com/programming/programDescription.php4?code=abortion

Not much information at this site, but it is a link as to when you can see the program that was unbelieveable! I watched it last night on Dish Satellite TV.

It came about through this group of women...Women on Waves

http://www.womenonwaves.org/index_eng.html

<snip>
Every 5 minutes somewhere on the world a woman dies needless as a result of illegal, unsafe abortion. In response to this violation of women´s human rights and medical need, Women on Waves operates a mobile clinic on a ship that sails to countries where abortion is illegal. This is done at the invitation of local women's organizations. With the use of a ship, early medical abortions can be provided safely, professionally and legally. Women on Waves aims to prevent unsafe abortions and empower women to exercise their human rights to physical and mental autonomy, by combining healthcare services and sexual education with advocacy.
<snip>

Here's the Poland link from their site with pics and report:

http://www.womenonwaves.org/poland2003/index.html

<snip>
Background information about Poland
Abortion has been legal until ten years ago. A 1993 law sponsored by the Church stipulated that a pregnancy could only be terminated to protect the mother's life, when the foetus was irreparably damaged, or if it were the result of rape or incest. Doctors performing abortions can be imprisoned for 3 years but women having abortions can not be punished. As a result medically safe, legally performed abortion is only accessible to women who can afford to travel abroad or have an illegal abortion in a private clinic at the cost of more then USD 500, which is the equivalent of a months salary in Poland. Sixty percent (60%)of the women in Poland live under the poverty threshold resulting in the fact that most women choosing abortion cannot afford a legal abortion abroad making the only recourse for a woman choosing abortion is having an unsafe illegal underground abortion. This option poses greater risks to women's health when the choice is an underground abortion. In Poland estimates are from 80,000 to 200,000 illegal abortions are performed each year. During the campaign for the 2001 general election, the now-ruling Democratic Left Alliance promised to liberalise abortion but instead it sought the support of the Roman Catholic Church to join the EU. The church offered its backing on condition that the existing abortion law remained in place.
<snip>

<snip>
On June 25h, we tried to move the ship to a more publicly accessible space in the harbour to enable journalists and the public to visit the ship. Some visitors, as well as Polish and international journalists came to see the mobile clinic, in spite of ongoing protests of the anti-choice group. The anti's shouted threats at the ship ("You look like Jews", "Torpedoes are coming your way from Hel") and tried to push one of the security cars off the pier and into the water. 30 big border patrol officers were needed to keep the anti's in control and the harbour master asked us to move back to the restricted area.
<snip>

<snip>
Friday July 4th we sailed to international waters for the last time. The ship left very early in the morning as we had heard that the anti's planned a large protest. We arrived back early in the afternoon. There were hardly any protesters at the quay. Once the ship was moored, a special team of the customs boarded the ship. We were informed that some of the passengers would be body searched. Some women had to take of all their clothes except for their underwear and their bags were emptied and searched. Nothing was found and finally everybody was allowed to leave. An hour later the last press conference started. We were happily surprised by a large group of demonstrators in support of Women on Waves. They scanted "thank you, thank you" . After the press conference the ship left for the Netherlands.
<snip>


NOTE: 3 snips from one link and another from a different link Mods..! :hi:

EDIT: WoW do not hand out pill if over 6 weeks pregnant BTW..

[philosophie_en_rose]

21. Are you kidding?

:sarcasm: Why pay addicts, ugly people, or hippies? They should just be sterilized, because if we don't find them pleasant, they don't deserve to have children. :/sarcasm:

If someone is on drugs and are {allegedly} too stupid to raise children, then how could she give informed consent to be sterilized, even on a temporary basis?

Sterilization is not a solution to the consequences of drug addiction.

[bleedingheart]

22. This is such a tricky issue

first off, anyone with substance addiction (including alcohol) isn't going to be a good parent.

To force sterilization is wrong.

But is a program that pays addicts to not have children wrong? And what about men? It takes two to tango...why not pay some men to have their vas deferens severed? My cousin got pregnant to a guy who had fathered four other children with three other women.... he wasn't doing anything to support any of his kids???

If a couple of addicts have children then typically their family and the local/state government ends up having to take care of themm which isn't an ideal situation but I would rather tax dollars help kids than build bombs...

In a free society people have the right to f*ck up their lives... and the sad consequences are that sometimes kids are added to that equation.

Technically the goal should be to help addicts overcome their problems so that they can make constructive decisions, the idea of paying people not to have kids because they are deemed "risky" by society is really just a band aid...

Life is just complicated...

[flaminbats]

23. for once I agree with the Church...

Scotland Against Drugs said it recognised there was a problem but said children in these situations must be supported. It has called on more education and help for mothers and improved services for looking after their children. Director Alistair Ramsey said: "I think it's a bit draconian to suggest that contraception injections should be an option when it's not known in advance whether the recipient woman would be a good or a bad parent." Catholic Church spokesman Peter Kearney said: "If you are going to sterilise drug-addicted women, why stop there? Why not sterilise alcoholics? "This is social engineering on a massive scale and it's completely unacceptable." A spokesman for the Scottish Executive said it was well aware of the risks to the children of drug using parents. He said: "We believe that the needs of the child should be paramount and have published guidelines for service providers entitled Getting our Priorities Right. "Along with other UK departments, we are currently considering our response to the Hidden Harm report on the children of drug using parents."

Why would the state bother to provide drug treatment when it can just sterilize them, and use them for the state-run prostitution network?

[undergroundpanther]

25. What about addict

MEN.

This commitment as they put it falls only on women, Why can't a male be accountable also for making a woman pregnant.It takes two ya know.

This policy is about eugenics in some ways .You know how it gets acceptable,make it look reasonable at first,do it for the children's sake..then encroach in,take that mile,stretch the rules,but exempt your chronies..exclude the booze like hypocrites,target the kinds of drugs non-whites use.

In reality people can have kids.
BUT
Parents should have no rights to abuse your kids assault them,neglect them or terrorize them.
Too many parents are bullies and too many parents can't manage their own emotions.Too many parents are dishonest to themselves about why they have kids in the first place.And they don't even HAVE to be addicts to be this way. Fundamentalist Christians who prescribe to that insane spare the rod spoil the child rhetoric are addicted to religion,sadism and domination.Why aren't THEY called addicts and prohibited from having kids as well?
Schools do a fine job of abusing kids into slack jawed obedience.

Haven't you figured it out yet good ,fair,honest people are not in control of this political/social system.Society wants obedience to a hierarchy(the rich and their servants).So eugenicists are selective about whom is scapegoated or limited in reproducing.They word it very carefully and make it look so reasonable,but in fact it is a war on the weak,the different,the non white.

White women are having fewer kids these days.And the white men are scared because the brown babies are darkening the world and they are scared of losing cultural hegemony.People(especially poor,non-whites and women) are not believing the bullshit the rich say to excuse their wealthy hoarding and despoiling of the planet and less people are trusting the powerful politicians excuses for their wars,lies and domination games.

Hence a reason (among many)the Bush crowd doesn't want to say for trying to overturn Roe VS Wade.
I think it's a good thing for these elitist white rich males to finally live like everyone else does,bring them down to Earth.
Let them be treated as a minority instead of getting away with deluding themselves and everyone else they are an elite class of a few that can determine who gets what when.These rich sociopath cronies in politics and business are still a minority of humanity. Yet they control way too much sociopoltical power and wealth for a group their size and they will not stop grabbing for more,until they are forced to stop somehow.
The likes of these elitist people offering to bribe women to not have kids is one way to make eugenics acceptable to the public.Oblivious people who are hysterical will give all sorts of freedoms away in the name of children's safety,not realizing it has a dark side too.Remember when MS NBC asked if torture would be acceptable to punish people and so many respondents were OK with it? Than they showed Uday And Qusaday dead on TV breaking Geneva laws I think,Here we had a two heads on TV, but in reality we were parading them before the world like barbarians holding aloft the head of a conquest on a stick. Yet there was not much outcry,or thoughts on it...maybe because so many of us are used to seeing the dead bodies on court TV forensic files or Dark hand dark heart on MS NBC. I bet if this stunt was pulled in the age when TV wasn't so violent and that violence wasn't so 'normal' the outrage and offense to the public would have been incredible. You do not need to pass a law or limit free speech at all to express in public your disgust, outrage twords violence and say it is unacceptable for yourself. If Enough people agree with you, cultural changes occur without forcing laws.

These selective reproductive control games and violence shows tell us how sick we as a society has become in our hearts and emotions if we choose to see it that way.It shows 'leaders'how well we emulate the tendencies of the leaders of our culture because they are barbarians and sociopaths at heart dressing up as if they are'normal'.We are being manipulated emotionally by a culture that loves violence and fear to urge us to fear and dominate and it desensitizes us to each other.This mind fuck will keep on until we are as sensitive and caring to each other's cries of pain and despair as the Roman centurions were to their"inferiors"cries. Be careful what things you excuse for others in the name of your own safety,freedom religion or country.It may come back for you once the rules have been expanded.