Madrid is awash with PROTESTORS.. 11:38AM PT...3/13

[SoCalDem]

CNN .. They are chanting.. LIAR.. CORRUPTION.. Police are NOT making them disperse.. The CNN guy says things are very tense ..and the protestors are complaining about the SLOWNESS of information getting to the public..


Looks like they know how a democracy should work

They distrust their government and TWO DAYS after an attack, they are out in the streets..

Go Spaniards..

Of course CNN-guy says they appear to have been "hijacked" by the antiwar people.. scum

[joeybee12]

1. Is the Liar they're referring to Anzar?

He's as big a liar as Dumbo!

[SoCalDem]

2. YES.. They are accusing him of withholding information

now cnn guy says "it's an illegal protest" because of the upcoming election..

[joeybee12]

8. He is such a pig....

...he and his cohorts are still desperately trying to blame it on the ETA, when you know damn well it was his folly in going along with Dumbo's revenge/oil war INSTEAD of truly fighting terrorism that caused this mess!

[JoeKSimmons]

28. Yea! If not for the USA then Spain would have not been bombed

We should have surrendered to the bombers long ago and none of this would have happened.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alittlelark]

42. Soooo funny!!

Unfortunately I did click and was frightened by the wicked witches!

[efhmc]

83. ICK! Look what you make me do? You know how curious I am and

look where it got me. (I am taking a leaf from the bushes and blaming my actions on someone else-you.) Yikes and I just ate.

[Trajan]

55. Hey Joe K .....

OK Joe K: ... (I just like saying that ... ) ...

NO ONE is saying that WE in the US should NOT have pursued the real perpetrators of 911: ... Saying 'we should have surrendered to the bombers' does NOT reflect the feelings of those on this board, and is a strawman fallacy ...

YES: .... the criminals who committed the destruction of the WTC and nearly 3000 innocent human beings SHOULD be pursued and brought to justice ...

I am a liberal: .. I am a Democrat: .. and I demand Justice for the murder of 3000 innocent human beings ....

These spaniards are angry for Aznar's support of Bush and his ill-considered juggernaut into Iraq, which did NOTHING to protect them from this attack ... NOT because they didnt 'surrender to the bombers' ...

Bush had precious little support in the Free World for a 'pre-emptive' war in Iraq, and received the limited support of the Spanish PM against the will of the citizens of Spain .... Aznar's choice has effectively painted a large juicy blood red BULLSEYE onto the Iberian peninsula, and those who did NOT support Aznar and Bush are now threatened by this awful spirit of retaliation ... I dont blame them for being angry at Aznar ....

One must further understand: Bush's ill conceived war in Iraq did NOT make the world 'safer', but inexplicibly allowed Al Qaeda to reform and rebound .... One MUST ask "WHY were the perpetrators of the WTC massacres allowed free reign while Bush directed his attentions to Iraq, which was NOT a party to the crimes at the WTC ??? ...

WHY did he allow the Al Qaeda to grow and regroup unmolested while he pursued someone UNRELATED to terror in Iraq ??? ...

Aznar supported Bush's defective policy objectives, allowing Bush to focus in the wrong place and ignore the 'real' terrorists who fled from Afghanistan into the hills and hollers of wild Pakistan ... Aznar is part of the reason Al Qaeda is STILL able to operate with such deadly efficiency ..

Bush and Aznar's choice to pursue Hussien and ignore OBL and Al Qaeda has led DIRECTLY to the ugly consequences of their mutual disinterest in Al Qaeda ... One doesnt ignore their greater threat to pursue the least threat without possibly incurring a deadly strike from the greater treat .. this was an asinine policy choice ...

Being angry at Aznar DOESNT mean one is coddling the bombers ...

DIVIDE the questions .... separate the issues: ... and avoid making such ugly strawman fallacies ....

OK Joe K ? ...

[efhmc]

82. Actually that is what the people in Spain are saying that if their

government had heeded the desire of the people not to enter the illegal war with Iraqi on the side of bush and company that they would not have been bombed.

[Lindacooks]

122. Sheesh

How do we get that kind of intelligent, logical thinking into American minds???

[absolutezero]

114. what does that mean

i'd hope its some kind of sarcasm

[bemildred]

115. I think It is an attempt to insert the "surrender to the terrorists"

meme into the conversation. I think it is considered unanswerable
and devastating repartee by the supporters of The War Against
Terror (TWAT(tm)). Underlying it is the idea that to do anything
different from the present boneheaded course of action is to
retreat or be cowardly or unworthy. You know, like in high school
if you are smart and refuse to fight some bonehead jock then you
are "chicken"? I must say it is most amusing to have supporters of
the policies of Bush and his chickenhawk coterie calling anyone else
cowardly.

[PassingFair]

121. Love you!

Too bad you've trademarked TWAT, may I have your permission to use it if I give you....

Policy for a New Imperialist Society........or PNIS?

[bemildred]

127. Reciprocated.

The TWAT(tm) trademark is licensed to the public for all
non-commercial use. I thank you for your contribution, and
I will attempt to use it judiciously in return. :-)

[xchrom]

3. ah a spark of hope

maybe -- just maybe they will give the right wing party there a boot -- right out the door.

[ithacan]

4. compared to the sheep-like response of people in the US to 9/11

when everyone rushed to crowd around Bunnypants Bush, "save us, save us"...

Sad commentary on the state of this society.

But then again, Spain knew decades of authoritarian dictatorship, they know how important democracy is...

[Just Me]

51. Yes,...the Spaniards' reaction is humbling to the American people,

,...in my view. It's almost embarassing to tell ya' the truth *LOL*. They are all over their leadership!!!

But, I was edging towards expecting this kind of response given the mass participation in pre-war protests. They want to stop their leadership from acting as awful as did our own. They are smart and, apparently, more united than we are.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

64. Post links,...

,...my memory is short on that assertion. Why don't you refresh it by posting proof of it (and not some radical right-wing propaganda).

[Trajan]

68. blinky

The 'left' demanded bush 'save them' ? ....

I suppose this implies that the 'right' didnt expect their president to protect them ? ...

sheeesh ... what an idiotic idea ...

Yes: .. Bush 'protected' us alright" ... by running to his momma in Texas (so she wasnt there ? ... oh darn) and Nebraska .... FAR AWAY from his buddies in the Taliban ....

We are occasionally forced to remind Bush supporters that the Bush MISAdministration were full parties with the Taliban, sending them MILLIONS of dollars for their efforts to reduce drug production ...

THIS at a time when the Taliban was rejected by the rest of the free world for its barbaric treatment of women, and its overall record of violating basic human rights ....

Bush, by his 43 Million dollar 'gift' to the Taliban in April 2001, became THEIR BIGGEST SUPPORTER ....

NOT the 'left', who DESPISED the theocratic numbskulls in Afghanistan, but the RIGHT .....

BTW: .... WE are america: ... NOT Bush and the Neocons ..

OR his lame supporters ....

You supported Bush in 2001 ? .... then you supported the Taliban as well ...

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[efhmc]

86. Made me laugh big time.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

80. He had to leave and listen to Limbaugh,..his hero *LOL*!!! *eom*

[Malva Zebrina]

85. Spain very well knows what the evils of fascism are

Americans have yet to look it up in the dictionary if they are interested at all, because fascism is something in the eyes of the ignorant , uneducated Americans, something that happens overseas to unstable countries. Not in this fine upstanding, morally unassailable, upright and outstanding country.

[LynzM]

5. Nice to know

That there are places in the world where the people will get together and say the stuff that needs to be said! Oh, and are paying attention enough to know what that stuff is...

[goclark]

9. Take To The Streets

Anti Government Protest seem to be working in Spain today. When the CNN reporter spoke a few minutes ago, I was in the other room and just listening.

He was saying the government in power,that supported Bush, is catching the heat today - right. They are calling him a lier and a crook.

For a moment, I thought that the Protest was in America and they were calling Bush a lier abd a crook!

Go Spain!

:bounce:

[SoCalDem]

17. of course the reporter keeps bringing up that this is illegal

and it's political.. well DUH... The people are tired of being lied to..

They are not complacent like we are.. They have already started their investigation.. It almost took a subpoaena to even GET one started here...TWO years after the fact..

The Spaniards are not a timid people...They learned their lesson with Franco.. I doubt that they will be buffaloed again..

I even predict that if Aznar "wins", there will be riots..

[goforit]

97. Didn't Kerry just call all the GOP liars and crooks?...........

Let's catch the Spaniards fever.

Let all our voices ring the truth!!!!

[snoochie]

43. Hi LynzM!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

Nice point about paying attention. :thumbsup:

[leesa]

70. Yes. Welcome. It is heartening, I just wish it was the country I live in

Bless those people in the streets.

[Just Me]

78. I, too, am comforted that there are people who are paying attention,...

,...to the fraud and misrepresentation and greed exercised by this evil administration. :D

[barbaraann]

6. Since 2000, I've decided that "taking to the streets" is just as

important to having a healthy democracy as voting. We should have protested the stolen election in 2000.

[goclark]

13. Yes! Street Protest

It looks like where America will be headed if this election is stolen. Hope * has his TV turned on today so he can see what it will look like for him and his band of thieves.

I pray for Spain! I pray for America and the Rest Of The World.

[0007]

113. Will it be in the streets where the prize can be found?

{center] I hope it is at the voter's booth in an honest election

[xxqqqzme]

20. U R so right!

We do not have a history of storming the bastille. I think that needs 2 B changed. We all saw those 'mob' lynching westerns as kids and believed the law 'n order BS laid down by the white hat hero.

[barbaraann]

29. That's a good point.

The movie industry always made the Western street mobs look like stupid, violent groups and never anything like the Spanish protestors we are seeing now.

I recently watched the movie "Gangs of New York" and I honestly hadn't known about the draft riots during the Civil War.

Let's hope Americans are waking up to the need for peaceful protest when the ballot box (or voting machine) fails.

[Dogmudgeon]

7. Little wonder

They spent the last day and a half being stoked up to hate the Basques, and one Spaniard out of ten took to the streets to vent their outrage, but now it looks like Señor Aznar has lied to them ... again.

"Señor Boosh? It is me, Aznar ... yes, but first I must ask you -- do you have any brush you need cleared from your hacienda?"

--bkl

[SoCalDem]

12. This would be an excellent time for the Basques to renounce

any terroristic approaches, and "come back into the fold".. Their issues would get more consideration if they are not lumped in with the "real" terrorists..

I know they have many gripes, but being in a position to always be blamed for a bombing cannot help their case.. They will need the support of the public to have their needs met ...

[bemildred]

19. Yes. nt

[aquart]

23. Excuse me? Basque separatists are REAL terrorists.

Good lord.

[SoCalDem]

27. Okay.. I should have made a better distinction

From what I have heard, they are "less" than AlQueda.. And their issues could probably be better resolved without violence.. Even if the want to break away, they surely have some affinity for the Spanish people. This event "could" the the event that cauterizes the open wound..

At soome point ...someone has to take the first step.. That's what I meant..

I also heard that they call and warn the police before they do their mayhem.. Not excusing it, mind you, but at least there is some warning..

[DoYouEverWonder]

48. They have taken responsiblity

for the last couple of bombings in Spain in the last couple of years. I would call that terrorism.

[leesa]

74. I call Aznar's participation in the coalition murders in Iraq terrorism

Just WHO are the terrorists in this world? The ones our government and their pet media tell us are terrorists? Our governments blow up more innocent people than all these so-called terrorists combined.

Just WHO are the terrorists???

[DoYouEverWonder]

Terrorists come in all shapes and sizes

but I do agree that the main terrorists are the one that took over America in the 2000 coup.

[Dogmudgeon]

88. Who are the terrorists?

All Basques are not Terrorists.

All Terrorists are not Basques.

This makes modern Spanish political life more complicated than the conservatives would like. Their terrorist hierarchy is Basques first, then al-Qaeda, then everybody else.

Very few Basques are terrorists. In fact, sympathy with ETA -- which was never all that high -- is at an all-time low. And the number of ETA members is also at an all-time low, since they have a very troublesome tendancy to blow themselves up. They prefer low-tech bombs, but there is such a thing as going TOO low-tech.

ETA is dying. They still make the occasional hit, but their numbers are probably now below 30 active terrorists and a hundred-or-so sympathizers and accomplices. Batasuna, which has acted as the political mouthpiece of ETA, has also been distancing itself from ETA lately.

Most of the successful work in gaining greater independence has come from more mainstream Basque politicians, like Jose Maria Ibarretxe, who has been a major thorn in the side of Aznar -- Ibarretxe came very close to declaring independence for Euskal Herria (Basque Country) a few months ago by leading the parliament of the Basque Autonomous Community to draft and approve a declaration of "Free Association" -- which has also gotten Catalonia thinking about the same thing. Aznar and his "Popular Party" have a clear interest in demonizing Basque activists beyond suppressing ETA. And conversely, ETA has become a thorn in the side of the Basque independence movement.

Now that the details of the operation are being developed and several non-Basque culprits have been arrested, the Spanish people can see Aznar's craven politicking in full -- failing to prevent a massive terror attack in spite of swagger and suppression of civil rights, cronyism with George Bush, and a transparent attempt to scapegoat the Basques. All of the sub-nationalities of Spain now see that the emperor has no clothes. Even his political supporters will be hard-pressed to justify this one.

Of course the Spanish (and EEC) authorities should keep the heat on what's left of ETA. If there are 100 ETA members left, there should be 100 clean prison cells ready for them. But raising the tribalistic accusation of "It's the Basques!" every time a terrorist attack happens in Spain has got to stop. Terrorism is multicultural in the worst sense of the word.

--bkl

[NV1962]

108. They did already - last Friday

It was really impressive, to see the displays of solidarity in San Sebastian, Bilbao, Pamplona and Vitoria.

Those out there made very clear that they firmly reject violence as a justifiable means to reach political ends in the Democratic context.

However...

There are about 150,000 voters too, who staunchly support ETA (its political wing)

But maybe the events of 3/11 will set off a collective realization, that negotiation, democracy and concession cannot be held hostage of violent methods.

I hope so, but...

Let's see what happens tomorrow (or later today, since Spaniards will go to the ballot boxes in a few hours)

BTW: the reason the protest in Madrid was declared "illegal" by the Spanish judicial equivalent of the Federal Electoral Commission is because the day before general elections are (mandatory) campaign free - no campaign ads or electoral activity can take place on that day before, called the "day of reflection" - so as to provide people an opportunity to think things through before casting a ballot, instead of being chased to the ballot box, and so give "issues" a greater weight than short-term memory attack ads.

It's not a bad idea, as it sort of levels the field more. But it also implies that "politically charged demonstrations" are declared illegal... Even when the circumstances dictate hardship as a justifiable factor. Anyway, thought that'd be helpful to know that legal tidbit.

[rockymountaindem]

10. Wasn't there some poll that said

70% of Spaniards claim to be anarchists? The poll did say that these numbers were inflated and that people claimed to be anarchists because that's the cool thing to be. Imagine a country where it's cool to be an anarchist. I think that's probably why people are so impatient with their government in Spain.

[LSparkle]

38. I'd rather be in a country where it's cool to be an anarchist

than where it's cool not to even effing VOTE to boot out the thugs who are infringing daily on our right to do anything but make money!

[bluestateguy]

11. This should not be a surprise to anyone

You simply cannot indiscriminately bomb other countries on false pretenses and not expect that some people will decide to respond. My only surprise is that Al Qaeda (or their surrogates) did not hit London first.

[SoCalDem]

14. They kind of did. with the embassy in Turkey..

I guess that was act 1.

[goclark]

32. How Right You Are

And Bush said that all of us are safer for what he is doing in Iraq.
The World was and is watching and this world is a mess.

The same terror activities could have happened on Clinton's watch. The difference is that Clinton would have handled these kinds of situations with so much dignity and intelligence.

Watch, Bush will say: Spain will have our support with these terrible monsters. They have supported the US and Anzar has been our friend.We now need to take over five other countries and find their WMD.

My Thoughts: While they are looking for sophisticated WMD, terrorist groups are using basic bombs and destroying the lives of so many.
Is our world safer Mr. UnPresident? --NOT

We need to do protest in front of the White House until he gets the message that there are a lot of people that know he is the biggest lier that ever lived at the White House.

[Mari333]

15. No matter how fucking hard the media whores here try to spin it

the people of Spain are PISSED OFF and 90% of them were against the occupation of Iraq from day one, as was I ...
Good! Now we need to get up off our butts and protest!

[htuttle]

16. POWELL: "Aznar has worn out his welcome"

"We cannot be constrained by the minutiae of democratic formalism. The people of Spain have spoken. Thugs like Aznar must go if we are to support democracy in the region," said Powell in reaction to massive demonstrations in Madrid against the unpopular Spanish strongman.

Okay, he didn't say that. I was just wondering what it would sound like if he did say it about a country that wasn't in Latin America or the Caribbean...

:shrug:

[Melinda]

30. The irony of your post is a thing of beauty

If DU had a "Post of the Day Award", you'd deserve to win it. Great post, just spot on amazingly perfect.

[TahitiNut]

58. Amen.

Perfectly composed rhetorical ju-jitsu doing a body-slam on the abysmal hypocrisy of this madministration. :thumbsup:

[Suspicious]

40. !!!

You had me completely bewildered before I saw the "Okay, he didn't say that"!

How surreal...

:crazy:

[snoochie]

45. Stupid question

Is that an actual Powell quote with the country references changed?

[htuttle]

47. Several of them

Powell has said those things about a number of countries, such as Haiti and Venezuela. I think he said some of them about Georgia, too (the country, not the state).

[Just Me]

56. Very powerful point!!!

If only we could always create and present such poignant distinctions so as to invite people to "think" rather than do an auto-adopt one-liners.

[Malva Zebrina]

87. I honestly believe that Powell is in the beginning stages of Alzheimers

He is a total waste--and we are paying him good money too! His job should be outsourced.

[goforit]

98. Ahhhh.............I think it's the red meat of Mad Cows.

Same symptoms.

LOL!!!

[9215]

118. Correction: That's "Waldheimer's" disease

That's when you get old and forget you worked for Nazi's. Named after Kurt Waldheimer. :hi:

[Holly]

18. I'm watching in awe

at the beauty of democracy. Thank you Spain for leading the way.

[SoCalDem]

21. of course CNN will now break away so we can watch

the latest on the Scott Peterson trial or maybe they'll run the GHWB BoyAviator-Hero-of-the-world special :eyes:

[Emboldened Chimp]

24. They've been sticking with it!

I've had CNN on for a good 15 minutes, and it's been all Madrid.

Paz! Paz! Paz!

[fearnobush]

22. Unfortunately, we are the Sheeple here in the US.

Go Spain!!!

[rumguy]

25. These are ANTI-GOVERNMENT protests

They are pissed off, they link these attacks to the Iraq war. Look at the signs...CNN is playing this fairly straight...this is big...

[JoeKSimmons]

26. Of course Aznar and the US is to blame for the bombings

These street protesters are just too smart to be sold the story that the terrorists are to blame. They should demand surrender to the bombers NOW before they get bombed again.

[SoCalDem]

31. Well aren't you just too cute , by half ?

:)

[ithacan]

37. cute visitor from "whoville"

he's been around for a little while now.

Can't quite get his tiny brain around the fact that Bush f***ed up bigtime...

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RainDog]

66. You lie about the issue, just like Bush

No one who has followed these issues is saying "it's all America's fault."

However, the alzheimerimers of the right find it convenient to forget the history of our interventions around the world and the blowback some of those inevitably bring.

For instance, America (and not just Bush) made sure Osama was armed to the teeth. America has overturned, or tried to overturn democratically elected presidents for decades...do you wonder why people in other countries might not think America is the pure virgin of democracy you seem to want to present?

The attacks on the WTC were criminal. They were not an act of war because Al Q is not a country. Al Q is in countries around the world...and not necessarily at the bequest of those countries.

We need a worldwide effort to deal with these terrorist cells.

We did not need to invade Iraq illegally and waste money and military power, waste resources which could be securing out ports. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with Al Q and it is only natural that people who knew this was a lie, combined with the actions being done by a crew which was not elected, had no mandate, and has worked incessantly to impose an ideological world view on America that WE DO NOT WANT would also tend to wonder about any other action they may take, or any action taken against them.

The Bush crew's unwillingness to address the issues of terrorism before 9-11, combined with their unwillingness to now look at the failure of our govt speaks volumes to me about their honest wish to deal with the issue of terrorism.

You will not defeat terrorism by declaring war on every nation in the middle east.

You have a better chance of defeating terrorism by funding education for women who live in repressive regimes, as silly as that may sound to chickenhawks in America.

But demographic evidence shows this is the case.

On the other hand, guerilla fighting and terrorism are not defeated by traditional army methods, and it is a waste of money, human lives and our very nation to pretend otherwise.

Of course, the current gang in power has shown its unwillingness to listen to generals and ambassadors and world figures who all have more experience dealing with these issues.

The world isn't Texas, no matter how the little pinhead in the white house would like to think otherwise.

If we can use the threat of action as leverage...I understand the usefulness of that. But we have squandered much of that power by failing to adequately deal with Afghanistan, while invading Iraq and then ignoring the problem of Saudi Arabia.

[efhmc]

91. Good rant but can we leave out the Texas reference. I am not even sure

what the comparison means since I have been here my whole life and don't get the analogy.

[RainDog]

105. It was the media spin

when Bush was running for office, he was positioned as a "moderate" by noting that the Texas legislature, both republican and dem, worked with him.

Of course, they also failed to note that the governor of Texas is in many ways a powerless position, compared to Lt. Gov.

And they failed to note that it's not really a stretch for a fundamentalist Republican to cooperate with politicians who, for the most part, do not in any way, want to upset the fundamentalist majority in Texas.

So when I say that the rest of the world is not Texas, that's what I mean.

I'm from the south, was raised as a southern baptist, have family who has lived in Texas for decades, and I think I have a fair idea of the mindset.

Texas is not a stand in for the rest of the world.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[efhmc]

89. Bush is directly to blame. He is a weak, stupid man that makes terrorism

a daily happening by lying and manipulating and disregarding everything that is good and honorable about democracy and promoting and abetting the greed and cruelty of corporations over humans.

[PA Democrat]

34. MSNBC reports there were 11 million Spaniards

out on the streets last night in protest. That is 25% of the overall population!

[lostnfound]

49. The pictures in the Houston Chronicle described them as 'mourners'..

I thought it was odd to call a million people on the streets 'mourners'..

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. I haven't heard anyone describe yesterday's marches

as protesting against the government. They were 'pro-peace'.

[PA Democrat]

100. The BBC described yesterday's marches

as protesting violence.

"On Friday evening up to 11 million people nationwide turned out in heavy rain to protest against the violence."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3509212.stm

"On Friday evening up to 11 million people turned out in heavy rain to protest against the violence in towns and cities across Spain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3507478.stm

[LSparkle]

35. Viva La Espana

After being suppressed by Franco for all those years, they know when to take to the streets! I'm ashamed that we didn't do the same after 9/11 but at least the Spaniards know to question their government -- FROM THE GET GO. God bless them!

[SoCalDem]

36. MSRNC is on it LIVE now

:)

[LSparkle]

41. While CNN has cut to some "future techno" show

The funniest thing was, I was channel-surfing and caught this first on ... Faux News! Who'd a thunk it?

[SoCalDem]

39. Madrid webcam..live updating

http://www.multimadrid.com/solcam.html

[SoCalDem]

44. Here are a bunch more, but I don't know where the protests are

located.. There are many cameras here, but I cannot figure out which to click


http://www.traficomadrid.com/Camaras/index1.asp?mapa=PRINCIPAL

[Joanne98]

46. Did the Spanish vote on Diebold last election?

I seem to remember hearing that somewhere. I can't find it though.

[Junkdrawer]

50. Yes...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3169706.stm

They have also been used in a number of other countries including the United Kingdom, Spain, India, Australia and Costa Rica.

[Joanne98]

52. Oh God

somebody needs to tell them. It will be interesting to see what happens tommorrow.

[Junkdrawer]

60. If tomorrow is a conservative landslide, we may be previewing Nov. 2004...

:scared:

[Joanne98]

81. Or we maybe seeing

a hugh voting machine backlash in Spain. That will move this e-voting scandal to a global level:)

[Nancy Waterman]

67. If Aznar's chosen successor gets defeated in the election,

which is ever more likely due to the Al Qaida bombing, then will Spain pull out of the Coalition of the Willing? And will Spain bring their few thousand token troops home? That would be a huge blow to Bush Blunder Boy.

[July]

116. I don't think so.

I am watching Spanish TV today, and all the voting I've seen has been done the same way they've done it in the past, with paper ballots deposited in transparent boxes.

There was a report about the use of computers (the type shown in the BBC article linked by another poster) with a smart card (PIN number method). They are reporting that AFTER voting for real, voters in 2 cities (Zamora and one in the north whose name I've forgotten) are participating in a test of these machines. They featured voters commenting on the ease (or difficulty, in the case of people unused to a mouse)of using the machines, explained how they worked.

THE IMPORTANT PART: The reporter finished her report saying that the elections have been conducted in the same way since 1976, and that to use another method, an election reform law would have to be passed.

I will post at another time about what I've learned from a Spanish friend who has been on a citizens' election board to describe how their paper system works. It's a good one.

[TheWebHead]

57. Only on Faux News

Rick Folbaum telling viewers the people of Spain were "protesting terrorism"...

then an earlier female host says they were "in mourning".

[MaineDem]

61. PAZ = PEACE, right?

I'm assuming that.

What a beautiful site! All those people calmly holding PAZ signs.

I will not sit on the sidelines again. Life is too important.

[blinky]

65. OMG the "innocence" in this forum. (NT)

[TahitiNut]

62. People who've most recently overcome fascism ...

... "up close and personal" seem to have a clue that Amerikans can't buy, rent, or steal. The people of Spain (Franco), Germany (need I say?), Cuba (Batista), Venezuela (Perez Jiminez), and other countries speak but the global corporatist media emulates deafness.

[Just Me]

75. Yes, and if the American people have an inkling of humility or wisdom,...

,...they will listen to those who have witnessed such first-hand accounts. Of course, the Americans have their own barriers to overcome,...corporatist-controlled media, deceptive government, religious fervour. But, I still believe that the "hearts and minds" of the American people will overcome all these barriers.

[blinky]

63. From the "Le Monde" yesterday......

"If the trail back to Al-Qaida is confirmed, Europeans should rethink the war against Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, as did the United States after the attacks of September 11, 2001. . . . Will March 11 have in Europe the same effect as September 11 in the US? After having spontaneously expressed their solidarity with the Americans, the Europeans, preoccupied with other forms of terrorism, found that the Americans had become consumed with paranoia. Contrary to the latter in 2001, Europeans today discover not only their own vulnerability, but also that they are confronted with a new phenomenon, mass terrorism. Like the Americans, they may now be forced to admit that a new form of world war has been declared, not against Islam but against totalitarian and violent fundamentalism. That the world's democracies are confronted with the same menace and should act together, using military means and waging at the same time a war for their ideals."

Even the far-lefts staunchest allies are abandoning them, and still they wonder if BUSH HIMSELF was behind the bombing in Spain. Looks like Bush for another 4.

[darkstar]

69. link please?

[SoCalDem]

72. blinky is sporting a nice ,shiny new tombstone

:)

[EX-CONservative]

76. Encouranging Development

If the NWO/BFEE sat on the info to ensure the Partido Popular's re-election (they were already ahead by around 6 percentage points) but end up losing, this could revent them from letting attacks happend for election results that are favorable to them.

In the end, it could save American lives that would be sacrificed for Chimpy by not tsking action...

[K8-EEE]

79. Viva Espana!!

Really proud to be a Spanish-Basque American today. I mean people could put two and two together and see that they government was trying to create an impression to manipulate the elections regardless of who really did it. And now it seems at least from the polls that people here are swallowing the obvious BushLies less and less easily. Que vivan Expana, El Pais Vasco Y Los Estados Unidos SIN BUSH!!

[Zomby Woof]

107. Olé!

:yourock: K8-EEE!

[NV1962]

109. ¡Eso, eso!

Me, born in Barcelona (I spent most years in Madrid though... Walked through Atocha station quite a few times...)

¡Fuera Bush y Aznar!

[9215]

119. You said it! Excellent post!

.....government was trying to create an impression to manipulate the elections.....

[SmokeyBlues]

84. Protests in Madrid

With all due respect to the millions of people in Madrid who have taken to the streets in protest for being lied to by their 'leader', watching the extended (15 minutes or more) coverage on CNN only pisses me off when I reflect on the little to no coverage that anti-Iraq invasion protesters --who were equally as vocal, outraged, and numerous-- received in the US and abroad.

Please tell the children to leave the room because uncle Smokey is about to use a bit of profanity: fuck CNN!

[many a good man]

90. Only 5 thousand protest against the government

The millions who marched last night were expressing their grief and national resolve. It was not until today's arrests that people marched AGAINST the government. Unless I'm mistaken, the protests seen on TV today only had about five thousand people.

90% of Spaniards opposed entry into the Iraq war, yet Aznar's successor enjoyed a six point advantage before the bombings. People support his handling of the economy and Basque terrorism. The PP are NOT as right wing as the GOP here. Tomorrow's elections are up in the air. I predict the PP will narrowly win.

[Joanne98]

92. All right-wing is evil. period

n/t

[alittlelark]

95. And I predict that you are listening to US propaganda.

Chimpy and his media minions are nervous. The pictures in the SJ Merc this morning showed those mourners holding signs. The election tommorow (on Diebold machines) should be interesting.

[muriel_volestrangler]

103. Reuters says 5,000 too

As Acebes spoke, around 5,000 demonstrators were massed around the ruling Popular Party's headquarters in central Madrid, demanding that the government clarify who was responsible for the blasts.
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=475359§ion=news

So does AP, as reported in The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3857748,00.html

AFP put it at 2,000 (in a slightly earlier peice)
http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,8964178%255E1702,00.html

The fact that the people on Friday night were holding signs means nothing, unless you can tell us they say something different to the anti-violence messages that were reported.

[many a good man]

104. Yahoo Espana says similar protests broke out

spontaneously in Palma de Mallorca, Santiago de Compostela, Barcelona and Valencia in front of each city's PP headquarters. No estimates on the numbers there.

[Joanne98]

93. CNN doing entertainment pieces.

We have got to get our airwaves back.

[SoCalDem]

94. Ah, for the days of the old CNN

They were tops in breaking news.. Anytime something big happened, they were on top of it and STAYED on it..

Now they just want to run their "People Magazine" fluff , and show snippets of "news" at the half hour..

They are NOT a news channel... They are just another "E" channel with screaming head shows...

[SoCalDem]

96. Spanish speakers..HELP

I have a link to Spain TV site.but I cannot figure out what it says.. There may be some video here..:shrug:

http://www.tvcatalunya.com/ptvcatalunya/tvcHome.jsp

[many a good man]

99. Catalan needed

Your links are to a Catalonian news source-- they have a different language. If my wife were he she could translate it for you.

[mike1963]

101. I'm not too good with the catalonian dialect, will look for a castilian

source/link...

[K8-EEE]

128. Catalan: Not A Dialect, But Another Language

Where is our DU Barcelona friend?

I will try the link for TVE which is in Castillian Spanish.

[many a good man]

102. News story is talking about protests earlier today

Thousands protested today in front PP headquarters. Shouting "Liars Liars", "Who has killed us?" "Aznar is to blame and we pay". Security personnel from Morocco are on their way to help interview the suspects.

[Gloria]

106. Listened to the BBC on shortwave...incredible reports from the scene

The reporter (a woman) said it was definitely a spontaneous outpouring, not just "anti-war" protestors. It may have started that way, but people just started coming to the offices of the "popular party" in power (I forget what it's called in Spanish...)

They were just so pissed about how they were being manipulated and think the government was leading them on while all the while the gov. knew it was probably Al-Qaida. With the majority of Spaniards against going into Iraq, it's likely they'll clobber Aznar's handpicked candidate tomorrow, but no one iw really sure.

The reporter drew the contrast with yesterday, when there were no police around...today, Aznar is calling the protests against his gov. "undemocratic" and there are riot police everywhere...

They also had a report from a mosque as two Muslim children who were killedin the bombings were brought in in their coffins for their funeral service. It was eerie to hear the singer. A man said that he didn't think anyone supported Al-Qaeda...

[lebkuchen]

111. 12 million people, just like that

Aznar didn't listen the first time; therefore, the numbers have multiplied.

[fishnfla]

110. we were all on those trains

we should all be on those streets.

[Guaranteed]

112. Right ON kick nt

[ramblin_dave]

117. Photo that caused 200 deaths?

Rate this photo:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/040314/photos_ts/mdf496065&e=9&ncid=705

[SoCalDem]

120. That would be the one.. Nice find

[NV1962]

123. Now Bush & Blair will have to repeat their "terror summit" without Aznar

[SoCalDem]

125. One down and TWO to GO....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

124. Off topic but Spanish women are beautiful!

[bemildred]

126. Yeah, I think I'm in love ... nt