Spain: Tape of al-Qaida claiming responsibility for Madrid bombs - Reuters

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

[plurality]

1. Is it big nose Osama?

[sal]

20. I know that dude on the left!

That's Theo the Love Goat of Nederland CO. Represent!

[Spoon]

2. Apparently it's a videotape

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

3. bbc world had it as breaking news

someone called tv station and told them where to find tape.

bashes bush on tape.

edit sp

[foo_bar]

4. link to article

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4522638/

[54anickel]

13. Isn't it sort of amazing that they, again, call Bush out by name. It's

not America, but Bush. Same with Saddam, Bush and little Bush. So much hatred toward this family - with good cause of course when you look at their history.

I am not an apologist for Osama or Saddam, but when you look back to the original complaints of Osama, they were against the power, greed and control the US had on the world through the IMF and WTO - much of what many here at DU and the WSF have also complained about.

What he did was inexcusable, but we do have a common complaint. If we'd have concentrated on Osama and al Qaeda rather than go hell bent for empirical control of the Middle East, attempting to force the US ideology over there by taking over Iraq many of these terrorist attacks around the world after 9-11 might not have happened. Instead we've made a hero out of Osama to many.

Flame away...

[Just Me]

23. "Bad Luck Bush",...

Bushy the Bad Luckyo Cowboy.

Yeah. Well, seriously,...the propaganda being generated by OBL and GWB are gettin' pretty feakin' old.

[TinaTyson]

33. I would like some documentation of a couple assertions.

First, the claim that bin Laden spoke out about the WTO and IMF.

Second, a link ot at least one thread where someone says or implies bin Laden is their hero.

Happy to discuss if you will provide those links. Thanks.

[54anickel]

37. Whoa, sorry there TinaTyson - I think there may be a misunderstanding

here.

You ask for "a link to at least one thread where someone says or implies bin Laden is their hero"

I did not mean to imply anyone here considers bin Laden their hero. In my statement - "Instead we've made a hero out of Osama to many." The "WE" is the US and the Bushco maladmin, the "MANY" are the new recruits to Al Qaeda and the numerous other terrorist groups, including non-fundamentalist terrorist groups. They have seen how successful terrorism can be thanks to our inept leader.

As for Bin Laden on the plight of 3rd world nations that has been thrust upon them by the IMF and WTO, I'd have to go digging for some of his old tape messages and it's too late for that tonight.

On edit:

Sorry, I forgot - Welcome to DU TinaTyson :hi: (See, told you it was late - past my jammy time)

Be nice to me Tina, it's my Birthday B-)

[Moderator]

5. Consolidated thread kick

[CerealMurderer]

6. But there is NO connection between Iraq and AQ

Why would AQ care about Iraq unless there was a connection between them?

We know for a fact that Iraq and AQ have nothing in common and is a cornerstone of our attack on bush trying to say AQ and Iraq were connected. With that FACT in mind how can we lend any credibility to AQ for saying Spain was bombed because America attacked Iraq?

Remember, there is NO connection between Iraq and AQ.

[darkstar]

7. Sorry you are new here, and I don't want to make any accusation b/c

I don't know you, but you are being funny, correct? Satirical?

You are making light of the exchange I saw on FOX today?

Expert: "In recent months we have been tracking new AQ splinter cells and loosely affilited groups around the globe and in hot spots like Iraq where the Sunni's have formed one."

Anchor: "So this proves Bush's contention that Iraq and AQ were in cahoots?"

Expert: "Yes."

Empahsis on the words "new" and "were", where the former means since the invasion of Iraq and the latter means six months prior.

[CerealMurderer]

8. I'm saying exactly what has been said here on DU for many months

There is NO connection between Iraq and AQ.

To say there is any connection would validate bush attacking Iraq. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[minkyboodle]

11. nice name tough guy

goodbye freeper

[Just Me]

24. *Smile*,...I feel safe here,...and I mean that, for real!!! *eom*

[many a good man]

12. Saddam and al Qaeda

There was no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda when Saddam ran the show (read my sigline). Saddam's history and now AQ is swarming all over Iraq. AQ sees the US invasion as another attack on Muslims. Spain got nailed because the war criminal Bush* got Aznar to overrule the wishes of 90% of his people. Bush and Aznar are responsible for the deaths and devastation in Madrid this week.

[CerealMurderer]

18. Bush and Aznar are responsible for the deaths and devastation in Madrid

I can't buy into the idea that Iraq and AQ are in cahoots because it would lend credibility to allowing our troops to stay there. I thought the goal was to bring the troops home. If AQ is now involved then we must stay and eliminate them after what they did on 9/11.

By sayinf Bush and Aznar are responsible for the deaths and devastation in Madrid is giving the bombers an excuse for their terrorism. I refuse to validate either terror attacks with excuses like: "Bush and Aznar are responsible for the deaths and devastation in Madrid", that's just giving validity to the terrorists.

[Just Me]

25. Ahem,..."extremists" do not equal whole countries,...

,...otherwise,...we would be bombing the beejeezus out of Kansas, Texas, Alabama and Georgia among other states which harbour "terrorists".

[sistersofmercy]

14. No, You are completely wrong and have faulty thinking

We have been saying there were no connections between Al Qaeda and Iraq prior to the war. Yet now it would seem that Al Qaeda have slipped into Iraq in order to wage war with our soldiers. BTW bush* never directly claimed a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq, go read his speeches, he mentioned them in the same sentence but never said they were actually linked. It's a little word association game.

[CerealMurderer]

16. What makes you right and me wrong?

To now say that AQ and Iraq were connected would justify the Iraq war. You and I both know it was an illegal war and to try and justify it now would be suicide.

[sistersofmercy]

17. No it doesn't justify the war

Al Qaeda weren't there prior to the war but clearly they're in Iraq now. Furthermore, the attack in Spain proves bush* has done nothing to stop Al Qaeda activities but rather has gotten them to step up their pace and recruit more people.

[CerealMurderer]

19. Are you saying we need to stay in Iraq and defeat AQ?

By claiming AQ is in IRAQ it gives us reason to stay there and defeat them for what they did on 9/11. I would now also think that Spain has a good reason to be in Iraq to help defeat AQ after what AQ did to Madrid this week.

If AQ is really in Iraq then there is your justification for the current Iraq war.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sistersofmercy]

27. No, there is no justification for this criminal war

Yes, bush* and his lying, crooked thugs have created a total mess in Iraq. Thousands of innocent civilians have been killed and maimed for bush*s politically corrupt cause. More faulty thinking on your part, to say UN forces would have come in and stay in order to restore souvereignty to Iraq does not justify this criminal war.

[Just Me]

28. What a Name, "CerealMurderer",...did you pick that on your own?

And, if you did,...why?

[CerealMurderer]

38. I grew up on a grain farm

When we reaped the crops we would kill many rabbits and other critters by accident with the machinery. More often than not some vegetarians claim their diet eliminates the suffering of animals.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maggrwaggr]

34. by that logic we should invade Spain now, since AQ is in Spain

no?

[Just Me]

26. Who said AQ and Iraq WERE connected? *eom*

[darkstar]

15. You understand the concept of

the past and present tenses, right?

[foo_bar]

10. liberal strawman aside

All nations are connected to AQ in some capacity, even Canada and these united states. Using "regime change" to remove AQ is like applying euthanasia to a sinus infection.

[CerealMurderer]

21. What "liberal strawman" are you referring to?

I see no use of the work liberal anywhere except you post? What are you eluding to?

If AQ is nothing but a sinus infection then why would the US and Spain be blamed for allowing them to bomb Madrid? Damned if we do and damned if we don't attack AQ? Which is it?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

32. They are kinda like an untreated infection,...I am sure you understand,...

or at least GET such "infections" *smile*. Thankfully, in this space, there are vaccinations against dogmatic, dead stumps. I am so proud of such spaces!!! :D

[foo_bar]

35. a strawman is a sham argument that's easier to refute than the real one

I see no use of the work (sic) liberal anywhere except you post? What are you eluding (sic) to?

In this case, a reactionary fallacy remains both reactionary and fallacious even when it's stripped of panting about "liberals" or "PIAPS".

If AQ is nothing but a sinus infection then why would the US and Spain be blamed for allowing them to bomb Madrid?

I sense that you're upset that this massacre is being used to justify political ends, and on that account we agree. But to be clear, AQ isn't "nothing but a sinus infection"; I was using what's called an analogy. An analogy is a comparison of relationships: for instance, AQ is to pre-war Iraq what a sinus infection is to an organism. As another example, AQ is to post-war Iraq what a gangrenous infection is to an organism bathed in sewage.

[maggrwaggr]

30. nice try, cereal

be a little more subtle next time. Duh.

[CerealMurderer]

39. You can't have it both ways

Either AQ and Iraq are in cahoots or they are not. Which is it?

[maggrwaggr]

40. only you, with your bountiful intelligence, could see it that way

For that half of the population whose IQ is greater than average, the answer is obvious.

Others have pointed out the flaws in your "argument" and you still don't get it, so my pointing it out again to you will not help.

[Career Prole]

43. Yo Cereal Murderer. They are not "in cahoots".

Not then...not now. AQ is no more in "cahoots" with Iraq now than they were in "cahoots" with us when they were living and stirring up shit right here. You really should have studied harder in Pretending To Be A Liberal 101. Bush "misunderestimated" AQ, just like he "misunderestimated" the Iraqi insurgence, and apparently like he "misunderestimated" the intelligence of the millions upon millions of people who protested the invasion of Iraq when he smirkingly "respectfully disagreed". If you'd paid attention in class at Freeperville Community College you'd have known this. AQ struck in Spain because the Spanish people...strike that, because the Spanish right wing ruler supported Bush's invasion. They also attacked the Italians, the Poles, and those Iraqis who chose to support Bush's invasion. There's a pattern here. It's pretty freaking obvious their aim is to isolate us. Hannity and Cannity won't tell you about it. You need to pick up a newspaper and read.
Bush also chose to ignore the multitude of warning voices regarding the deep ethnic divisions in Iraq. Yes, Saddam was a beast. He's a POS. The fact remains, however, that his oppressive regime resembled a prison right up to the warring gangs which are kept from rioting by the existence of a warden and guards. Bush has removed the warden and guards in Iraq leaving nothing in their place since he's now seen fit to abandon them in hopes that it will help his election chances. Now there'll be a prison riot with no one to stop it except our soldiers...pretty stupid. Our soldiers deserve better. Saddam could've waited. He was contained. Bush ignored al Qaeda and instead chose using our military to secure his cronies some more dough.
Incidentally, your not-so-subtle dig at vegetarians above was pretty lame. Are you comparing the running over of rabbits by your tractor to the factory slaughter of millions of animals every year? Certainly sounds that way. Mighty weak, that. I'll take the trade-off.
Meanwhile, back in Iraq...no connection with al Qaeda. Not now, not ever. Ask Bush if you don't believe us. I'll not bother with a greeting...I'm one of the angry liberals you've heard about.
You guys can all yell at me for being an uncivil lout now...

[LoneStarLiberal]

36. It Is In AQ's Interest To Link Us To Iraq...That's Why

The connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda is as a result of our invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Al-Qaeda has used the invasion and occupation coupled with our lack of interest in working with the Israelis and Palestinians in ironing out a just peace in the Levant as proof of our bias against Muslims and Arabs.

Al-Qaeda and the Hussein regime had no love for one another and as we have (not) found, any evidence of connections between the two is (non) existent.

Trying to lie about the existence of a Harkat ul-Ansar camp "in Iraq" when those cunning, deceitful lie peddlers in Washington knew (as did anyone who could look at a map of Iraq) damn well that the camp was in the Kurdish protection zone in northern Iraq was the closest the Bush administration ever came to making that case.

To sum it all up, the reason Al-Qaeda cares about Iraq now is because we invaded it and are occupying it. It makes their case to the Muslim community and Arab world that they are standing up for Muslims and Arabs everywhere who might be invaded by the United States. That we seemingly invaded Iraq over a concocted pile of bullshit called "imminent threat" makes their case that much more stronger to an already heavily propogandized Arab population.

[CerealMurderer]

41. So you are saying the Madrid bombing is the fault of the USA?

Gee, how are we Americans supposed to go on living with all this guilt that keeps getting attributed to us?

Your "sum up" is an insult to the "Muslim community" you claim to represent. I give more credit to the Muslim community to let them decide for themselves who is to blame for what. To attempt to speak for the Muslim community is an insult to the Muslim community.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. No, he's saying that Bush made it more likely

By starting an illegal preventative war (by previous American standards) in Iraq, he gave ammunition to Al Qaeda's propaganda. They say that America is trying to take over the Middle East; and Bush invading Iraq, when it posed no danger to the USA (or its neighbours) only helps their case. Americans need only feel guilty if they vote for Bush again.

There's no insult to Muslims; AQ is obviously trying to get support and recruits from them, and that's all LSL said. He never implied that they, in any significant numbers, give that support; and I can't see where he claims to represent them. It's no different from saying the Ku Klux Klan is trying to get support from the white community.

[gulliver]

29. The world is a safer place thanks to Bush's leadership.

I'll bet we don't hear him say that again. It will be like the Mars mission or WMDs...