Safety of Beef Processing Method Is Questioned (injecting beef with ammonia)

[kpete]

Source: New York Times

Safety of Beef Processing Method Is Questioned

Eight years ago, federal officials were struggling to remove potentially deadly E. coli from hamburgers when an entrepreneurial company from South Dakota came up with a novel idea: injecting beef with ammonia.

The company, Beef Products Inc., had been looking to expand into the hamburger business with a product made from beef that included fatty trimmings the industry once relegated to pet food and cooking oil. The trimmings were particularly susceptible to contamination, but a study commissioned by the company showed that the ammonia process would kill E. coli as well as salmonella.

Officials at the United States Department of Agriculture endorsed the company’s ammonia treatment, and have said it destroys E. coli “to an undetectable level.” They decided it was so effective that in 2007, when the department began routine testing of meat used in hamburger sold to the general public, they exempted Beef Products.

With the U.S.D.A.’s stamp of approval, the company’s processed beef has become a mainstay in America’s hamburgers. McDonald’s, Burger King and other fast-food giants use it as a component in ground beef, as do grocery chains. The federal school lunch program used an estimated 5.5 million pounds of the processed beef last year alone.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/us/31meat.html?_r=1

[MineralMan]

1. Irradiation is the answer. I've never understood the mindless

opposition to it. I'm sure I'll be roundly attacked for that position. :hide:

[DJ13]

3. I'm sure I'll be roundly attacked for that position.

Not by me, I think you're right.

Not only does it kill all bacteria, but it acts as a preservative allowing unrefrigerated sealed meat a shelf life of several months.

[MineralMan]

7. Considering the waste involved with the recalls of millions

of pounds of ground beef, it just makes sense. It's so simple, really.

[defendandprotect]

71. What makes sense is listening to nature . . .

there are many reasons why eating your animal friends doesn't make sense --

slaughter houses and fecal matter, for one --

Irradiated FECAL matter is still FECAL matter!!

[Grinchie]

102. You are so right - Shit or Dead Bacteria is still poison and not food.

The people that promote Irradiation are either totally ignorant of the fact the Irradiated products are transformed by the irradiation process. So much so, that a certain molecule is formed that is now part of a patanted test for Irradiated products.

Or maybe they are ok with the fact that it allows Big Agri Business to operate even more filthy processing plants, because they are able to kill a large amount of the bacteria to "Acceptible Levels" before shipping.

Or maybe they don't have a clue about how fast they run the lines in a Slaughterhouse, or just how many animals they process in a hour, all in the nome of prductivity, while they pay the migrant laborers minimum wage..

I remember decades ago, when I still ate fast food, buying a burger at Jack in the Box. It tasted like cleaning solution was mixed in the meat. That was 20 years ago, and I haven't eaten there since.

The trouble with irradiation is very simple. First of all, they use the tool like a stone axe, using many millions of times more radiation than is necessary to destroy the organism.

The second problem is that if they actually used the method developed by Royal Rife, it would prove that there is a cure for cancer and about a thousand other diseases caused by parasite, Virii and bacteria.

I think that is the main problem, simply because the AMA and Big PHRMA will not allow a simple and effective way to destroy pathogen to be allowed to exist, even though it does exist, and many people know it.

[Nexus7]

106. Irradiate to cure disease in living tissue? Nonsense!

You said:
"The second problem is that if they actually used the method developed by Royal Rife, it would prove that there is a cure for cancer and about a thousand other diseases caused by parasite, Virii and bacteria.
I think that is the main problem, simply because the AMA and Big PHRMA will not allow a simple and effective way to destroy pathogen to be allowed to exist, even though it does exist, and many people know it."


What nonsense! I don't care about irradiating meat, since I don't eat that shit (literally)! But irradiating the human body, which I believe is what you're suggesting, even if it doesn't affect human cells, will kill beneficial micro-organisms. The body contains about 100 times as many cells of other organisms as it does human cells. Likewise, it is advised to take yogurt or acidophilus tablets to restore gut micro-organism after a round of antibiotics because they get killed in addition to the disease.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nexus7]

127. Try reading the Wikipedia entry, Einstein

"Noob trolling for a flamewar"! How original an argument!

What you posted about Rife and irradiating living human tissue is unadulterated poppycock. You're not going to change that with an ad hominem argument.

[Grinchie]

172. Nice to see you have one source to base your life upon.

Hate to tell you this, but Wiki is not the source of all information. You may actually have to read other sources before you can claim to have reliable knowledge.

Half the crap in Wiki wouldn't have made it past the editor of a reputable publisher, but feel free to go on thinking that it would.

The simple fact is that the mere mention of Royal Rife brings out the attack squad is proof enough for me that you guys are scared as hell about the facts regarding MOR's and Royal Rife. As you should be, because if your dependant on Big Pharma for your livelihood, youd take a big hit.

[SpiralHawk]

143. Irradiation kills beneficial life in meat, too

Only materialists would suggest that all we are taking from fruit, vegetables or meat is minerals and vitamins. That's all dead substance. It's all just part of the material world.

But, free clue, there is more...

[AtheistCrusader]

113. Ignoring a whole lot of problems with this post, Irradiation isn't only beneficial to meat.

Works great on fruits and veggies to extend shelf life as well.

Also, you get similar byproducts in meat and vegetables from irradiation, as you do from simply heating them, with normal infrared heat.

[JoeyT]

144. Royal Rife?

Yay Royal Rife: Combining the best of conspiracy theories and woo anyone could ever ask for.

Of course sanitation in the processing plant should be the first line of defense. Irradiation should be the second.

[Chulanowa]

160. There's fecal matter on your veggie friends, too.

Not to mention all those yummy yummy heavy metals the plants suck up from the soil, before htey are ripped out, hacked apart in what, for a plant, is a terrible long moment of agony, and then their shredded, chopped, and mangled carcasses are shipped for you to dunk in a cup of ranch dressing and eat raw!

:)

Go breathertarian. It's the only way.

[mzmolly]

47. ? How long does the radiation linger in the meat?

I think that's the concern, valid or not. Any idea?

[populistdriven]

49. 0.00000000000000001 seconds um its gamma

[mzmolly]

50. In English please.

:hi: ;)

[populistdriven]

56. gamma radiation is just like any other electromagnetic radiation including radios and visible light

gamma radiation is a photon and cannot make food radioactive because the energy is insufficient

for something to become radioactive it has to be unstable nucleus

think of water which has hydrogen and oxygen

water has stable hydrogen for it to become radioactive you have to add a neutron to the hydrogen to make deuterium which is unstable and is radioactive

a neutron is 0.1 nm in size vs a photon which is infinitely smaller (it has no mass)

the only possible way for gamma radiation to make a nucleus unstable is to knock out a neutron by exceeding the binding energy of the neutron

hydrogen, which has the lowest binding energy for its neutron of all the elements, requires 2 million electron volts to lose its neutron

the two isotopes used for food irradiation are cobalt 60 and cesium 137 the peak for co-60 is 1.3 Mev and for cs-137 the peak is 0.662 Mev

so the gammas dont have enough energy to make anything radioactive

[mzmolly]

65. Ahhhhhhh I see.

;)

"so the gammas dont have enough energy to make anything radioactive"

Thank you.

[populistdriven]

237. yes - this is a subatomic limitation of the energy output

if these were not reliable rules then electronics and your tv wouldnt work properly

[skyounkin]

78. You're out of your mind!

Gamma radiation made the INCREDIBLE HULK!!

We do NOT need incredible hulk meat walking around smashing stuff!

Ammoinia hasn't produced any irradiated super monsters.

I'll stick with the ammonia!

Thanx!

:hide:

[JonQ]

94. Just don't burn your steak

that would make it angry, and you wouldn't like it when it's angry.

[Chulanowa]

161. I dunno about yours...

But my incredible hulk meat is quite well-behaved most of the time.

[PatrynXX]

84. I'll just turn up the gamma dection on my night vision webcam :P

think I'm in danger. hahahhahhahhha. probably more trouble as when I ran a laserdisc without it's cover on :P
Nice red laser

[SafetoEat]

110. Irradiation

I do not know of any proof that irradiated beef is harmless. It is almost laughable. Hired guns will say anything. Happens in court all the time... When exposed to small amounts of radiation, etc., it takes a long time to show any damage to us if any. Same goes with Quaternary Ammonium, Sodium Hypochlorite (Chlorine), Sodium Dioxide, etc, non organic sanitizers, they are all carcinogenic and leave residuals on your food, however, it takes decades to produce the damage. If you eat a small piece of meat, chicken, fish, vegetables, etc., that is not sanitized, one bite can kill you in a very short period...

What really amazes me is that people think that organic is safer when it comes to Ecoli, Salmonella, Listeria, etc., and that is absolutely wrong. NOT In many cases organic can be more dangerous if they fail to sanitize the product; Why? most of the sanitizers readily available are not organic so they just rinse it off with water and eat it. Sure, it is easier to clean and control on small operations, like your personal garden, however, small operations will not feed the world population.

Remember, Organic doesn't mean safe to eat! All it does is guarantee is that no non organic chemicals were used on it at any stage. If you grow vegetables on your farm next to your cattle, chicken and pigs, your vege's will more than likely be contaminated through the air, it doesn't need to travel by land... If you do not sanitize organic food, it may get you very sick if it was exposed to any contamination such as: Ecoli, Salmonella, etc.

You need to look for food safety labels such as iPura, which represents the highest standard in food safety; they sanitize food with organics in special delivery systems, and do it thousands of times better than current processes that are using non organics. You can find them on the internet under iPura.com They do not use irradiation...

Also, remember, if you cook your food and get a core temperature reading of 165 degree F, for 4 minutes, it will kill the pathogens such as Ecoli, Salmonella, Listeria, Vibrio, etc. You don't need to irradiate your food.

For vegetables, you can soak them in 3/4 water, 1/4 vinegar and a few caps of hydrogen peroxide, they are all organics and harmless to us, and they leave no residuals whatsoever. Soak your vege's for about 30 min and you will not get sick from your salad, vege's etc. After you soak it, rinse it off with water and you have safe food to eat. The vinegar is ascetic acid which causes cell lysis and kills the pathogens, the hydrogen peroxide stunts the growth for 15 to 20 hours. In addition, vinegar works well for stomach aches, food poisoning, etc.

[AtheistCrusader]

117. Some countries have been doing irradiation for a long time.

No know side effects. There was thought to be an unverified problem with cat food in Australia, but again, un-verified. Some stuff in the US is now irradiated, and the USDA is riding a tight leash on it to ensure our safety.

I'd eat irradiated stuff. No problem.

[mzmolly]

165. Great tips on cleaning vegetables and fruits.

Thanks! And, welcome. :hi: I knew that cooking meat well was important, but many may not so thanks for sharing.

[fascisthunter]

203. thank you

[populistdriven]

48. I agree whole heartedly but people would rather be ignorant

[arikara]

112. If you want to eat something lifeless

that doesn't rot, why not just eat cardboard. There was a Chinese entrepreneur who had quite a lucrative business making dumplings out of cardboard and glue. Not much different than what is being served up in the grocery stores now, perhaps even better than the chemical stew that they assault our food supply with.

[JonQ]

123. Do you eat all your food while it is still living?

That's pretty messed up.

[Gormy Cuss]

4. Better sanitation from farm to table is the answer.

That would involve radically altering or dismantling CAFOs and increasing USDA sanitation requirements and inspections of processing plants. The price of beef would go up, perhaps so much so that people would consume less overall and probably less per serving too, neither of which is a bad thing.

[MineralMan]

6. The problem actually is the pre-grinding of meat before shipment to

institutional customers. Ground meat is extraordinarily prone to E. coli contamination, due to it's enormous surface area. Irradiation after grinding would solve that problem completely and end the rash of recalls of huge quantities of ground beef.

Your wish for people to eat less meat is fine, but is not relevant to this particular issue. A solution exists, but is not being used, due to irrational fears about irradiated food.

[Gormy Cuss]

14. Irradiation is a solution like using ammonia. It's treating the symptom rather than the cause.

My comment about the consequences of instilling better practices from farm to table, that meat prices would go up and that consumption would probably go down, is still valid whether you agree with my comment that lowering consumption would be a good thing --and that's not my "personal wish," but you're right that the discussion of how that would benefit the country's population is a different issue. Fact of the matter is consumption of meat continues to rise each decade and on average we consume far more than we need for nutritional health, mostly because the price is so low:

Meat Consumption at Record High
Now more than ever, America is a Nation of meat eaters. In 2000, total meat consumption (red meat, poultry, and fish) reached 195 pounds (boneless, trimmed-weight equivalent) per person, 57 pounds above average annual consumption in the 1950s (table 2-1). Each American consumed an average of 7 pounds more red meat than in the 1950s, 46 pounds more poultry, and 4 pounds more fish and shellfish. Rising consumer incomes, especially with the increase in two-income households, and meat prices in the 1990s that were often at 50-year lows, when adjusted for inflation, explain much of the increase in meat consumption. In addition, the meat industry has provided scores of new brand-name, value-added products processed for consumers’ convenience, as well as a host of products for foodservice operators.

http://www.usda.gov/factbook/chapter2.htm


Since we agree that the factory grinding of the meat is a problem area, why not address the problems associated with that flawed production method rather than add another step in the process?

[MineralMan]

16. It's a cost issue, actually, and irradiation helps with that, as well.

Even though irradiated ground beef is slightly more expensive, the cost of grinding beef at every site where large quantities are used would be far higher.

The health-related issues have been tested in extensive research and found not to be an issue.

Since the FDA has approved irradiated beef for retail sale and for distribution to school lunch programs, it appears that things are on their way. In Minnesota, where irradiated beef has been available in supermarkets longer than anywhere else, the acceptance level is up, and especially following the numerous E. coli scares in recent years.

Pre-formed hamburger patties are a very, very popular item for family purchase. They allow easy portion control for parents, simpler meal preparation, which is important in families where both parents work, and seem to have good acceptance.

The irradiated stuff sells well in Minnesota markets. Apparently, it's on a growth cycle, and many parents are quite aware that it eliminates the risks associated with such products which are not irradiated.

As for your 2000 report on meat consumption, that is a choice issue, rather than a health issue. As you said, it's a different argument.

[pipoman]

58. Simply cooking beef to 165 degrees will do anything irradiation does. n/t

[defendandprotect]

68. Irradiated FECAL matter is still FECAL matter . . . !!!

[Jackpine Radical]

59. To be blunt about it, the e.coli problem arises from one major cause:

The grinding of cowshit into cow meat. This happens because of the...well...shitty conditions in the slaughter houses that result in the meat being coated with--you should pardon the expression--shit. This was never a problem for traditional farmers, who were simply much cleaner about their meat slaughtering and processing, nor is it a problem with reputable small-scale organic farmers.

Just another reason why I far prefer organic meat.

[defendandprotect]

69. USDA has long been permitting 17% FECAL matter on carcasses . . .

[WriteDown]

97. No they haven't!

Just think about that logically for one minute.

[JonQ]

125. I think DAP is having some fun

his other comments make no sense, like that eating meat is a new thing, and that mother nature punishes us for the "violence" of eating meat with spina bifida and downs syndrome.

I really don't see a person who thinks like that being able to survive this long, so it must be a joke.

[WriteDown]

156. You are more of an optimist than me. nt

[Kali]

162. pretty sure you were the one that got this WRONG before

if not, go back to primary school and try to learn fractions and percentages again, mkay? Then take some time to use what little common sense you may have and THINK about the proportions you are claiming. jeezus fuck, no matter what your dietary choices are with reasoning like you exhibit you have NO credibility whatsoever!

[Gormy Cuss]

157. Yep.

Small abattoirs can have e. coli problems too, but they're rare and easy to trace back to the source.

The system in place now is all about producing the cheapest ground beef possible, not about a safe product. If USDA regs required more careful handling the wide scale e. coli contaminations wouldn't happen. The meat doesn't need to be rinsed with ammonia or irradiated to do it.

[smirkymonkey]

238. I think you've just turned me into a vegetarian.

[Illuminated]

250. Not trying to cause a war, but,

I worked in Industrial Refrigeration for years, and spent time in packing houses (beef, chicken, pork), rendering plants, and food processing plants across the US. IBP, Excel, Tyson, Hormel. I would and do eat meat processed in all of their plants. As far as fecal contamination on carcasses I have NEVER seen any on hanging meat I have seen in the coolers. So the 17% argument goes right out the window. If it really skeeves you, look for Kosher meat, carcasses are not allowed to even touch other in the hang. All plants are required to washdown EVERY DAY. 3rd shift does nothing but clean.

For the record, the cleanest plant I was ever in was a dog food preprocessor. The worst - let's put it this way I will eat Tartar made from storebought hamburger before I would eat any prepackaged frozen meal: Stouffers, Lean Cusine, etc. (Shudder) one word for you: REWORK.

[Ferret Annica]

55. I'm not convinced that the radiation doesn't just kill E. Coli

I don't drink milk because it's not labeled for bovine growth hormone, and I have been poisoned with aspirtine when I don't fastidiously read every ingredient list of everything I consumed.

So I don't trust an industry that tried to slip one by the consumer with contentions that irradiation does not harm the meat.

I eat pretty simply and focus on vegan and known sources for food these days because I refuse to accept that with the food industry, we are dealing with adults that respect the consumer.

[pipoman]

60. Vegetarians/vegans are at as much or higher risk for

food borne illness than meat eaters. Most people do cook susceptible meats to 165 degrees..not so much with a lot of vegetables when eaten raw.

[Ferret Annica]

72. Most meat is just bad for you. period

I eat it occasionally as I do like fish, but Eugene, Oregon has very well run health food stores. In fact, we have more then the usual number of them for a population our size. So I feel no worries.

I am very healthy at 55 having never smoked, exercise all the time and avoid all alcohol. As a typical Eugene counter culture type I am quite sure that barring an automobile hitting me while riding my bike that I'll live a long and healthy time.

[customerserviceguy]

92. You are strong.

To avoid drinking alcohol in the very city where Ninkasi Brewing is located is way beyond my abilities!

[Ferret Annica]

211. Must be too close for me to notice

Never heard of that brewery, but then again I don't go to taverns or bars. I am not much for crowds. I don't even go to Duck football games. Too loud and crowded.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. For most fruits and vegetables washing suffices.

The leafy stuff does carry some risk. I rather doubt that "much higher risk claim". Here:

ABSTRACT
Abstract: This study on the contamination rates of raw foods available in factory, school, and hospital canteens in Hanoi, Vietnam, with the bacteria of Salmonella, Campylobacter, and Escherichia coli (E. coli) was carried out between 2003 and 2004. A total of 177 raw food samples of vegetables, meat (beef and pork), fish, and poultry were examined to provide baseline data for evaluation of microbiological risks in general, and identification of potential vehicles for pathogenic cross-contamination in canteens. The study confirmed that unprocessed fish and poultry are likely to be contaminated with Salmonella and in the absence of proper kitchen hygiene and may contaminate processed foods. Raw poultry samples were highly contaminated with E. coli (45%), Campylobacter jejuni (C. jejuni) (28.3%), and Salmonella (8.3%) and classified as high-risk food. E. coli was also detected in raw meat, fish, and vegetables with the rate of 21.3%, 6.6%, and 18.5%, respectively. This article confirmed the importance of hygienic working practices when preparing food.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120187861/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Vegetables are somewhat less risky than meat. Chicken is disgusting.

By the way the strain of e.coli causing problems emerged in the early 80's and is a direct consequence of industrial feedlot cow farming. We need to stop making cows stand in their shit eating pharma glop while getting fat enough to kill. It is lethal not only to the cows but to the rest of us.

[pipoman]

109. Again,

as a chef, I worry far more about fresh fruits and veg than anything else in my restaurant for food borne illness. I know I process all of my cooked food to safe temps, or warn my customers that 'eating undercooked meats and eggs does increase the risk of food borne illness' (right in every menu)..but salads and other raw produce are beyond my control. I have to trust that my suppliers are diligent in their treatment of my produce. Say a head of romaine for instance. If the internal leaves have bacterial contamination, then I cut through that and continue cutting 8 more heads with the same knife, I have contaminated a of the lettuce. Some of the larger food service produce suppliers state that they disinfect their cutting blades with each cut thus reducing the cross contamination. As I have said in this and other threads, 'there is inherent danger in eating, if you eat you will be effected by food borne illness', most people write off occasional upset stomach, diarrhea as a normal periodic problem without regard for the actual cause being likely food borne contamination.

[Warren Stupidity]

149. Well you should worry about raw chicken first and foremost.

But your claim of 'much higher risk' is simply false.

[pipoman]

164. I have no fear at all about raw chicken

as I don't serve raw chicken. All chicken is cooked to 165, chicken station is away from all other prep areas, no worries. As I said, I know that susceptible foods are treated accordingly in my kitchen, fresh veg which is served raw is beyond my control, thus more worrisome.

I didn't claim "much higher risk", I said, "Vegetarians/vegans are at as much or higher risk for"

[Grinchie]

173. As a customer, I don't want you as my chef.

Please feel free to let me know where you work and I assure you that you will see your business shrivel up and die when I tell the world your stance on food borne pathogens.

[pipoman]

189. Every word is true and is the concern of virtually every single chef

and restaurant owner, and food supplier I have spoken with. I have attended seminars with a hundred chefs/restaurant managers from around the country. I know I am doing everything in my power to minimize food borne illness, likely more diligently than your 6 favorite restaurants...most restaurants employ kids and amateurs to cook your slop, if you think for an instant that they understand or even care about this for that matter, you are sadly mistaken, they probably don't even wash their hands after using the toilet. The cilantro salmonella outbreak ruined several restaurants last year through absolutely no fault of their own.

Now, oh wise one, tell me what exactly you don't understand or take exception to in the post you responded to?

[defendandprotect]

114. Vegetables are at high risk .... from contamination by chemicals used as fertilizers . . .

which are systemic in vegetation which is NOT grown organically --

Vegetation is also susceptible to contamination from handling by pickers who often

have to survive in the fields without appropriate bathrooms, soap and water.

HOWEVER, unlike "chopped meat" vegetation can be cleansed of these contaminations by

appropriate washing before using.

Again - chemical fertilizers in non-organic foods are systemic in the vegetation and

cannot be washed away.

[pipoman]

140. And again,

you are wrong, salmonella cannot be washed off of vegetables.

[Grinchie]

174. Please provide your source that Salmonella contamination is systemic to fruits and vegetables

Most likely, it from you slicing lemons on the same cutting board you prepared your chicken,

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

228. As opposed to posting, oh, say, not one single source which contradicts

this link or the CDC link I posted (maybe you missed the CDC link which also says that washing will not remove salmonella from vegetables and fruit)...I am sure people everywhere are saying, 'I believe that brilliant interweb poster Grinchie, rinsing my cucumber will inoculate me from any contamination which may have been introduced between my fridge and Guatemala where it was picked'...you do realize that 99% of people buy most or all of their groceries, regardless of their diet, at grocery stores and restaurants, no? Or do you think most people are subsistence farmers?

[Ignis]

255. Any links to support the higher risk claim? (nt)

[JonQ]

95. What else do you suppose it does?

I mean technically you are correct, it doesn't *just* kill E. coli. It kills other bacteria as well, but that's a good thing.

[bertman]

101. Great point, MineralMan. My dad was a butcher. He got his beef in "sides"--half a cow

that he then cut into the various "cuts", steaks, roasts, stew chunks, or he would grind it into the various grades of ground beef. There was good old hamburger, which was the fattest because, well, it had the highest fat content. Then there was ground chuck, which had beef that had more of the fat trimmed off before it was ground. Then there was ground round or sirloin, which was the best cuts of meat and usually the leanest.

Nowadays there are very few retail outlets that butcher/cut their own beef. It all comes pre-cut and pre-trimmed--even at Whole Foods.

Anyone who likes burger and is concerned with contamination can buy themselves a grinder and then grind their own grades of ground beef from cuts of chuck, sirloin, round steak, etc. that are bought at a store. That way, you are not getting the ground beef that is a mixture of fat and meat from hundreds, perhaps thousands of cows.

More info than anyone wanted, I'm sure.

[No Elephants]

146. I don't grind my own, but I do buy a steak and ask one of the butchers at he supermarket to grind it

for me. Yes, it goes through the same grinder as everything else he grinds, but at least I know exactly when it was ground and what it looked like just before it got ground.


I usually wait for a nice sale on london broil or steak. I use or freeze the same day as I buy it.

[bertman]

159. That sounds like a good way to go if your butcher has a grinder. The likelihood of

contamination is much lower.

[JonQ]

20. E. coli will get in to food

no matter what. The stuff is everywhere and even healthy, organically raised cattle have billions of E. coli bacteria in and around them. You can reduce it's incidence with proper protocol, but you can't eliminate it.

[No Elephants]

147. I don't believe most sources are doing their best, though. Factory farming is disgusting.

[Tumbulu]

104. I agree with you (nt)

[galledgoblin]

171. agreed, exactly what I was going to say. (n/t)

[diamidue]

12. Guess I'm mindless.

You couldn't pay me to eat irradiated beef.

[MineralMan]

13. OK, so, tell us why you wouldn't eat irradiated beef?

You must be able to articulate some reason.

[backscatter712]

41. They irradiate meat in Europe.

Doesn't seem to cause problems over there.

[JonQ]

18. Irradiation:

Irradiation is the process by which an item is exposed to radiation.


I trust you've never eaten anything that has been cooked then. Ovens, microwaves, or those warming lamps that fast food joints love, all require the use of radiation.

[MineralMan]

19. How insensitive of you to make such remarks...

:grouphug: :applause:

[Grinchie]

175. I'll take heat altered proteins over nuked ones thanks.

It's pretty funny that you guys try to insinuate that irradiation is somehow identical to cooking.. I guess that you are happy eating your bloody, dripping carcasses loaded with the remains of billions of dead bacteria, their wastes, and a ton of altered proteins that you would never ever find in cooked food that hasn't bee irradiated.

Go ahead, eat all that crap. The bacteria are dead, but the toxic waste they exuded, along with the nutrients they consumed and removed from the food are good for you!

Thats right, eat hearty and grow big and dumb.

[WriteDown]

233. Bloody dripping carcasses?

Delicious!

[JonQ]

15. But radiation is scary

That's the stuff they put in atomic bombs. The meat may mutate and attack you at dinner. It will give everyone cancer.

Just summing up the "arguments" against it.

[MineralMan]

17. Yah, that's about it.

The alternative health groups are most definitely against it. You can find some really scary articles on sites by the likes of Dr. Mercola. The information in those articles runs counter to the extensive testing done on irradiated meat.

[diamidue]

23. Your choice.

Well, I guess I am just a luddite, because I don't even trust microwave ovens!

However, it is unsettling to know who benefits from irradiating foods (apart from the cattle and grocery industries) - companies like SureBean (before it went belly-up) who had contracts with Cargill, Tysons, IBP, Kraft, Del Monte, etc. They represented 75% of the ground beef market. Their parent company, Titan, was one of two companies accused of complicity in the prison abuse scandal in Abu Ghraib, Iraq. Titan used linear accelerators originally used for the Star Wars program to irradiate food. The company was also dependent on handouts from the federal government for 80% of it's revenue. One reason the company failed was expenses. The thick, interior barriers needed to ensure that radiation is contained was expensive. Titan's founder, Dr. Ray served for two years as Chief, Strategic Division, U.S. Air Force (AFGOAS).

WHY SHOULD I TRUST THESE PEOPLE with the food I serve my family?? Seems to me that their biggest concern is preserving their wealth.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=10848

And then, there are people like this speaking out:

Dr. Samuel S. Epstein, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Medicine, University of Illinois School of Public Health, Chicago: "The government's assertion that irradiated food is safe for human consumption does not even pass the laugh test. Exposing America's school children to the hazards of irradiated food is reckless negligence, compounded by the absence of any warning to parents.

I'll continue to buy the highest quality, grass-fed, free-range beef, poultry I can and cook it well. If others want to eat irradiated meat, fine with me.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. "WHY SHOULD I TRUST THESE PEOPLE"

A high school science education?

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JonQ]

45. Trust has little to do with it

you don't have to trust them to know that they are telling the truth about radiation killing bacteria, that is a verifiable fact.

The same people will also advise you to cook meat thoroughly to kill those same bacteria, I don't "trust" them on that issue, I simply know that it is right from empirical evidence.

"Well, I guess I am just a luddite, because I don't even trust microwave ovens! "

I guess so.

[JonQ]

46. Trust has little to do with it

you don't have to trust them to know that they are telling the truth about radiation killing bacteria, that is a verifiable fact.

The same people will also advise you to cook meat thoroughly to kill those same bacteria, I don't "trust" them on that issue, I simply know that it is right from empirical evidence.

"Well, I guess I am just a luddite, because I don't even trust microwave ovens! "

I guess so.

[daleo]

44. Here are some objections worth considering

Irradiated food reduces the nutritional value of some foods.

It could expose workers to radiation hazards, due to poorly maintained machinery and inadequate training.

Radiation sources could be taken from the machinery, and used for terrorism (dirty bomb concern).

Experience has shown that we can't always anticipate harms well - for example mad cow disease from feeding animal protein to herbivores.

Technology fixes can encourage food companies to become lax in other sanitation measures - risk homeostasis.

For what it's worth, I have a BSc in Physics, so I am not necessarily anti-science or confusing ionizing radiation with EM radiation in general.

[Strelnikov_]

52. Agree

I would be better to step back from the industrial agriculture that lends itself to mass contamination.

Until that time, irradiation will help to protect the public health.

[defendandprotect]

67. People seem to be against fecal matter even when irradiated-- !!!

Guess they're just jerks, eh?

Meanwhile, USDA has long been permitting 17% fecal matter on animal carcasses!!

[lazarus]

142. link?

to the USDA website where that is found?

[customerserviceguy]

91. You won't get attacked by me, either

I would gladly pay a bit extra for irradiated meat. At the very least, it should be offered, labeled as such, so the Luddites can avoid it if they choose.

[Zoeisright]

137. Concern about MORE radioative waste is hardly mindless.

Neither is wanting beef producers and processors to start spending more money up front so the cattle are healthier and to make the process cleaner.

Good God.

[WhiteTara]

152. a little cesium 235 is good for the

?

[Sanity Claws]

170. Feeding cattle grass and hay is the solution

This is what they were supposed to eat. They were not supposed to stand in a feedlot in their own waste while eating gmo corn.

Our food production system has gotten seriously out of whack.
There is no way I will buy beef treated with ammonia or irradiated.

[defendandprotect]

197. Corn? They were being fed other animals and road kill--!!!

And, because cows had no way to break up this crap-- they were shoving

plastic canned drink-separators down their throats to cause some break up action!!

We've known for hundreds of years and more that feeding animals to other animals causes

brain damage -- spongiform brain damage, a la Alazheimer's!

Yet America began to do this again and re-taught it to Europeans --

that's the source of Mad Cow now --

[WriteDown]

234. "known for hundreds of years and more that feeding animals to other animals causes brain damage"

Someone save the lions!

Links to cows eating roadkill?

And let me guess, Kentucky Fried Chicken became KFC because they don't use real chickens anymore!

[Illuminated]

249. Same reason many here HAAAATE nuke power.

OMG WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE OMG. JANE SAID WE WILL HAVE THE CHINA SYNDROME. OMGS.

Dont tell me you are in favor of green power unless you are willing to accept nuke power.

[dixiegrrrrl]

2. We just bought half a side of beef from a local organic farmer!!!

The flavor, tenderness and quality of the meat is marvelous.
Plus I can go back to eating beef, I had stopped eating commercial beef.
We put our order in for next year, saving our bucks to do it.
I feel so relieved to have found this guy so close to home.

If anyone gets the chance, it is so worth the initial outlay, in the long run much cheaper than what you buy at the store, ultra better quality.

[dionysus]

32. oh, what i'd do to be able to purchase meat that way. but it's grocery store for me

:(

[Kali]

163. where are you?

do you have access to farmers markets? what about CSA's (mostly produce, but there are meat-based ones as well) Here are a couple links to get you started:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/pubs/csa/csa.shtml

http://www.eatwild.com/

bottom line, though, is the food sold in this country is pretty damn safe, where ever you get it - the media likes it's scare stories but life just isn't 1005 risk-free

[Grinchie]

177. We just had some delicious Organic burgers tonight,

Man were they good.

For the posters that try to convince everyone that Organic is so dangerous, then all I have to ask them is why to I feel Ill after eating processed foods, lace with GMO ingrediants, including the meat.

They are nothing but the DLC Hit Squad protecting their Corporate buddies at Tyson, Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, and all the rest of the shisters that have convinced 80% of the population that growing food in the dirt is a filthy, dirty thing to do.. Well it is, especially the way they are doing it, and the poor populace takes lessons from them!

Do orgainc fruits and vegetables get dirty? You bet they do! Birds are flying through the trees, lizards are camped out eating bugs, and all sorts of life exists in a orchard. But I'd rather wash off some bird or lizard feces that consume invisible, odorless and tasteless neurotoxin residue that will make my guts twist up into a knot 15 minutes after I eat a tomato.

Oh yeah, irradiation is not the end all either. You still need to cook the food or the remaining bacteria that survived will regroup.. It's pretty clear that the cheerleaders here don't want to achnolwledge that little caveat.

[Hulk]

5. I guess vegetarian is the answer....

Unless you kill it in the wild....you are probably eating a lot of crap you don't think about when you bite down on that juicy steak.

I've had it with American beef, and a lot of the fish as well. I guess the same goes for chicken and pork, when you think of it. If you can't get it locally.....you are taking the chance that you are consuming a lot more than just the meat.

[MineralMan]

8. That's fine for you, of course. Vegetarians are a tiny minority

in this population, however. Since that is the case, concern for the safety of ground beef is something worth considering.

As for your first sentence, it isn't steaks that are the problem. This E. coli contamination is restricted to factory-ground beef. Steaks may have some E. coli on their surface, but such surfaces are universally seared in cooking, destroying the bacteria.

Ground beef, on the other hand, is often undercooked and the E. coli is not killed.

By all means, choose vegetarianism for yourself. It is not a choice many wish to make, although everyone wants safe food.

[Lorien]

40. We're not that small a minority. There's millions more turning to vegetarianism

every year as information about food safety, factory farming and the meat industries profoundly massive effect on climate change becomes more widely known, not to mention the health benefits of removing meat and/ or animal products from one's diet. Half of my family, several of my neighbors and many of my friends have become vegetarians or vegans within the past year. We have a choice, yes; live for the moment and forget about the consequences, or become fully informed and decide if momentary "pleasure" is worth the massive price that will be paid by both ourselves and future generations.

[MineralMan]

54. Oh, yes. Vegetarians are a very small minority.

Roughly 4%, according to the stats I found at wikipedia.

[defendandprotect]

73. .... mainly because animal-eating is passed down by parents . . .

who are told vegetarianism is unhealthy --

:rofl: :rofl:

PLUS, it is often young children -- not free agents -- who express the desire to be

vegetarians.




Yet the message that Mother Nature delivers over and again is that eating animals

is destructive to human health -- both mentally and physically.

And harmful to the planet --

[DatManFromNawlins]

138. Evolution says you're full of shit

But then, so is some of that beef, so I guess you're even.

[provis99]

10. Fruits and vegetables are just as bad

the problem is big industrial corporations controlling our food supply, not what type of food it actually is.

[defendandprotect]

198. Right . . . blood and guts spilled everywhere make animal-eating just like eating apples!!!

Had a lot of Mad Cow lately, have you?

[JonQ]

21. Just be sure to avoid

milk, cheese, apple and orange juice, alfalfa, radishes, lettuce, tomatoes, spinach, and water. All known vectors for E coli poisoning in the US in the last decade.

Probably others that went unnoticed as well.

[stray cat]

27. Spinach contaminated with e-coli - yum!

[Hulk]

81. I STAND CORRECTED!!

OK, OK.....bad post on my part. Was just a bit frustrated with everything being "poisoned" in our food chain these days.

I'm NOT a vegetarian....but your point is well taken that even plants are poisoned by our corporate food production in this country.

Please forgive my flippant post. Can't promise it won't happen again either.

[Kali]

166. nah, its more like our minds are poisoned by the media

life is a complex web of healthy nutrients and toxic pathogens - you can't live in a sterile environment any easier than a filthy one. Even if you produced 100% of your own food, you would be at risk of something. Relax. Eat real food in moderation. Be conscious of sources if it makes you feel good, but stressing over every alarming thing the media (or other hysterical sources) spews is often going to be worse for you than whatever scary boogey-thing they are "promoting"

[54anickel]

9. Ahh, the almighty buck again...

snip>

School lunch officials said they ultimately agreed to use the treated meat because it shaved about 3 cents off the cost of making a pound of ground beef.“Several packers have unofficially raised concern regarding the use of the product since the perception of quality is inferior,” the 2002 memo said. “But will use product to obtain lower bid.”

In 2004, lunch officials increased the amount of Beef Products meat allowed in its hamburgers to 15 percent, from 10 percent, to increase savings. In a taste test at the time, some school children favored burgers with higher amounts of processed beef.

And for the :wtf: award:

Dr. Theno, the food safety consultant, applauds Mr. Roth for figuring out how to convert high-fat trimmings “with no functional value.”

“There were some issues with that,” Dr. Theno said. “But he, and God bless him, amassed a tidy fortune for it.”

[Downwinder]

11. Does nitrogenated beef produce explosive farts? n/t

[12string]

22. nitrogen

is an inert gas that is not an explosive.Perhaps you were thinking of hydrogen.

[jmowreader]

24. nitrogen

is also a chemical that's a component of EVERY explosive on the market.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. I demand these people keep their atoms out of my food.

[JonQ]

86. No, nitrogen is inert

some nitrogen containing compounds are explosive. But by itself nitrogen is harmless.

Good thing too, as that's most of our atmosphere.

[Downwinder]

90. Ammonia (NH3) is the precursor to gunpowder, nitrocellulose, and TNT.

elemental nitrogen is inert under standard room conditions and exists as a diatomic molecule, N2. The inertness of nitrogen is due to the presence of the very strong triple covalent bond in the N2 molecule.

[JonQ]

202. Ok, try making just nitrogen blow up

I'll even give you some oxygen to play around with.

[Grinchie]

179. Yep, Totally Inert, that's why plants require it for Photosynthesis

Thanks for demonstrating your absolute ignorance for BioChemistry.

Quiet everyone! JonQ was able to put one thought together!

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Grinchie]

219. I guess the fact that Nitrogen is so reactive and required for Photosynthesis is over your head.

Thats ok, It's pretty clear that thinking and or reading books outside your own little specialized pigeonhole is too painful for you to comprehend.

Get back to whatever you do and leave the thinking for others to accomplish.

[Grinchie]

178. I guess he didn't get the memo on Nitric Acid or Ammonia

It's surprising how many people would rather blame Ozone for Smog than the Nitric Acid droplets that are produced from the Oxides of Nitrogen reacting with Sunlight and water vapor. Oh year, it's the Ozone that makes your lungs hurt... Not the tiny droplets of Nitric Acid that are part of the same reaction...

And Doctors prefer Chesterfields...

[ElboRuum]

51. No, nitrogen prevents explosion.

It, however, is responsible for many of those loud farts you expect to smell, but don't, leaving you scratching your head.

[Aristophrenia]

25. Here are the facts -

E-coli comes from Faeces - the E-coli in beef comes from poor slaughtering and hygiene - generally from cutting part of the excretion system
during slaughter. Thats what it is - thats where it comes from - shit.

The truth is that using Ammonia or Irradiating it is just irradiating faeces - you are eating shit.

The solution is to return the slaughter house to quality environment - this does not happen anywhere else - it is an American problem from
the race to the bottom in quality as costs are forever cut to maximize profit.

The e-Coli count found in the other vegetables mentioned is also from shit - they spray shit onto vegetables as a fertilizer.

Shit in beef is very, very, dangerous and cause permanent brain damage or death.

Those who advocating we just irradiate the beef so that we can eat clean shit should declare their financial incentives.

[laundry_queen]

30. You've summed up my problem with irradiating.

It doesn't make the meat 'cleaner'. You are still eating shit. Only now it's sterile shit that won't make you sick.

I can totally see the meat processing plants become very lax in their cleanliness, because, hey, it won't matter! Everything will be sterile when it leaves the plant. Even if your meat is covered in crap, it won't make you sick so they won't care.

I'd much prefer very strict regulations (and very regular inspections) on the cleanliness of the slaughter houses. At least then I know my chances of eating shit are a bit lower.

[ConcernedCanuk]

36. LOL - "sterile shit" - that just about sums up the whole fast food market

.
.
.

except when it doesn't

BUT

they load it up with sodium and it tastes damm good!

Stoopid us

(sigh)

[Alameda]

42. "clean", or it doesn't have things we have discovered YET....

[sce56]

61. Vaca Loca

The reason I don't eat Beef anymore is since I was in Germany in the 80's the Red Cross will no longer accept me as a blood donor. I try to eat food that has better processing like Knudsen's milk since it has no Rbst hormones actually I now buy Organic valley farms milk more expensive but better tasting and a longer freshness date on it. Foster farms states their chicken is grown with hormones or steroids. I just wish they also said no antibiotics!

[Grinchie]

180. Sterile Shit is NOT food

Not many in the Irradiation camp want to acknowledge the fact that it has been depleted by the bacteria, who have left their toxic wastes in the food.

The fact is that eating irradiated food is like building a mansion with wood that has been sitting in a rainforest for a year that has been consumed by fungi.

Good luck with that.

[WriteDown]

235. You can see the result everyday as millions of Europeans die off from malnutrition....

Due to their use of irradiated meat.

[pipoman]

70. I call shit..

The solution is to return the slaughter house to quality environment - this does not happen anywhere else - it is an American problem from
the race to the bottom in quality as costs are forever cut to maximize profit.

Utter and complete shit. We all know bovines in other countries have clean shit, huh? Anyone who thinks food borne illness is an American problem needs to get out more..ever hear of Montezuma's Revenge? (and that shit is from tap water)

Traveler’s diarrhea (TD) is a clinical syndrome resulting from a sanitation failure that leads to bacterial contamination of drinking water and food. It occurs during or shortly after travel, most commonly affecting persons traveling from an area of more highly developed hygiene and sanitation infrastructure to a less developed one.

http://www.endonurse.com/articles/681diagnosis.html

[jmowreader]

158. The cleanliness of the shit isn't the problem

Under Ronald Reagan, the Food Safety Inspection Service brought out Streamlined Meat Inspection. Designed to let processors make more beef with fewer government inspectors, it has resulted in carcasses not being properly inspected--with results we all know.

If you google "streamlined meat inspection" you will run into libertarian articles suggesting the solution to the food safety problem is to abolish government meat inspection and let private firms handle it. Great idea, guys. The free market very rarely goes for "the best" of anything, but rather the cheapest of everything. If I was a meatpacker with no government regulation and no morals, I would hire the cheapest meat inspection company I could find--this is what would happen industrywide; in case no one noticed there isn't a hell of a lot of profit in the food business--and set up a distribution chain so convoluted there'd be no way to track my meat back to the slaughterhouse. Rather than competing on the safety and quality of the meat, the companies that weren't processing Angus beef (Angus beef sells at a premium; it would be in a different supply chain) would figure out a way to ensure you couldn't trace a problem back to one particular supplier.

The solution is to de-Reaganize the food industry.

[pipoman]

167. What I object to is

...this does not happen anywhere else - it is an American problem...

Simply not true at all. Every country has food borne illness issues, anyplace where people eat has food borne illness. We could all benefit from better inspections, maybe..no matter how diligent the inspections they don't take the place of proper food preparation. If people were preparing their hamburger by cooking it to at least 165 degrees, we would never hear about hamburger related bacterial contamination.

I don't completely agree with your belief that all food processors would cut corners. A prime example is my favorite packing plant right here in Kansas, Creekstone. Creekstone adheres to higher standards than are required. They even sued USDA because they wanted to test every beef they slaughtered for mad cow and USDA prohibited them from doing that. They sued and lost.

After the mad cow scare, if I get a roast in (my chuck roasts are 30-60# each) which is somehow bad, that piece of meat can be tracked back to it's birth...this has never before been possible.

Angus beef is simply a breed of cattle, not necessarily any better than any other. The Angus raisers have done an exemplary job of marketing/merchandising their product as some sort of beef panacea and thus it demands higher prices. The best beef I have ever eaten has been black/white face and red/white face steers, raised on a combination of grass/alfalfa, small quantities of grain, and other high carb plant matter (corn stalks, sorghum, milo stalks, etc). I have raised cattle to maturity myself, done correctly a person can't tell a sirloin from a grocery store fillet, or a round steak from a grocery store sirloin.

[jmowreader]

168. Creekstone is definitely an exception to the rule

I remember the Creekstone v USDA decision--oh horrors, if this little abattoir can test every cow it processes for BSE, why can't a huge one with far more resources do the same thing? Well...maybe because they're a small processor? A really big slaughterhouse wouldn't have the storage space for the meat.

[stray cat]

26. The problem is what they are calling meat - extracting protein from fat clumps

and discarded waste - results in more bacterial contamination so they then inject Ammonia

[waronbanks]

151. God bless Capitalism

The free market system working to perfection. Providing Americans with better products and more choices at cheaper prices. Its a beautiful thing.

[greenbird]

31. Now THIS thread is why I like to come to DU

No personal attacks, a lot of useful and interesting information that I can take and follow up on . . . food for thought, and good critical thinking. Thank you!

[Aristophrenia]

33. The book Fast Food Nation - read it.

It is excellent - the only problem is that Eric Schlossers drivel Super Size me came out at the same time and stole the lime light.

While in the UK and AUS I tend to source grass fed beef with which has been aged on the bone for 5 weeks - you will never, ever, ever taste anything like it.
It is a completely different product to anything you will ever eat - its like chalk and cheese - who wants to eat chalk.

Good aged beef will be very dark, black with mould on the outside and the fat crystalizing. The outside is trimmed off and inside is very rich red meat - never ever bright red.

You can poke your finger into the meat - it will go straight through, or leave an indentation in the beef which is does not close over easily.

This peice of beef - t-Bone prefferably - should be brought to room temperature then cooked over a medium heat to seal the outside with a little olive oil - do not salt it or pepper it. Turn it once. This process causes a caramelisation of enzymes in the outer layer of meat. of the DO NOT over cook it. You can finish it with a little butter to enhance the flavour of the browned outside. Take it from the heat, crack pepper in a mortar and pestle and then apply with Maldin sea flakes and rest it for ten - 15 minutes wrapped in foil.

This will be the best steak you will ever eat in your life - and you will wonder what the hell you have been eating prior to this as it certainly was not beef.

[greenbird]

34. I did read Fast Food Nation

Just finished Michael Pollans' In Defense of Food. I'm an organic farmer and produce seller, but am a little behind the eight ball when it comes to meat. Thanks for your ideas!

[jmowreader]

35. Morgan Spurlock's drivel, right?

Eric Schlosser wrote Fast Food Nation.

[tinrobot]

37. This was covered in the movie "Food, Inc."

Ever since I saw that movie I refuse to buy ground beef from the store. Not only is there ammonia in it, but it can be hundreds or thousands of cuts per batch. If one of those cuts is contaminated, the whole batch is contaminated.

These days, it's one cow, one burger. I went out and bought a meat grinder and now make my own. That way, I know exactly what's in every burger.

(on edit) I also only buy organic, grass fed, never the corn fed feedlot crap. I buy a lot less, but at least I know it's clean.

[defendandprotect]

75. You know, it's interesting to watch cooking shows every now and then . . .

Someone like Rachel Ray/? will pick up a package of "meat" -- you know, white tray and

plastic over it -- and will just pop it into a frying pan or whatever without ever actually

washing it!!

As I thought about the horrors of that, I realized that it is probably done that way because

to have any of these cooks wash "meat" before using it would send a message that the food

probably is unclean and that could be harmful for the animal-eating industry!

But, imagine that -- taking a package of "meat" like that and not washing it!!!!

Wow!!

[WriteDown]

155. I do that....

As long as you bring it up to 160, you're good to go.

[Grinchie]

181. My family has always washed everything we ate since long before I was born

My dad was a doctor, mom was a nurse, and we always ate good food.

The first rule was never ever cook any meat without washing it thoroghly, or washing it before grinding it.

This goes for fruits and vegetables too.

[wickerwoman]

239. USDA recommends against washing meat.

Any surface bacteria will be killed when you cook it and washing it just splashes the bacteria around your kitchen.

You should wash your hands after handling it though.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Does_Washing_Food_Promote_Food_Safety/index.asp

[Lorien]

38. I'm SO glad I'm a vegetarian. I don't miss meat or the worries about

the health risks involved with eating it. I feel much better now and have fewer digestion issues, plus I save money and have a smaller carbon footprint than I did as a meat eater.

[pipoman]

82. I'm glad you feel better and enjoy your new diet..

but don't kid yourself..you are just as at risk for food borne illness as a meat eater unless you cook everything you eat to 165 degrees.

[Ignis]

241. Yes, I'm putting a salad in the oven as we speak.

:eyes:

[daleo]

39. I had a MacDonald's burger a while ago

I thought it tasted bleachier than usual.

[defendandprotect]

196. Yuck . . . are you kidding?

[RoccoR5955]

43. Another reason to go Vegan

Though I am not, I did stop eating beef a couple of years ago, when the e. coli stuff was in the news.
Meat is a really inefficient way of getting nutrition. And the factory farms are another issue. Which is why I only eat meat that is locally raised, in the Hudson Valley. I get chickens from a friend's CSA, and pork from someone down the road from me. I know the people who raise the animals, and know that they want return customers, so they make sure that their meat is excellent quality.
Maybe it's high time I stopped eating meat though.

[pipoman]

79. Be sure to cook your lettuce and other greens to 165 degrees,

or you are trading one risk for another...nothing like some nice hot romaine on a hot day..:D

[Grinchie]

182. You sure like to point out that Billions of people should be dying from their Salad

But I'm afraid your pathetic little warning doesn't have much basis in fact.

More people come down with the Norwlk virus on a Princess cruise every year than the worst outbreak of contaminated lettuce.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

242. Do you ever serve uncooked vegetables to customers?

If not, it sounds as if you're ignoring your own advice.

[pipoman]

252. Sarcasm

My sarcasm has gone over the heads of many, I guess I should use the little smiley sarcasm tag.

To answer your question, of coarse, hundreds of pounds per month.

The only people I have suggested cooking their lettuce have made statements to the effect that they are not susceptible to food borne illness because they are vegetarians/vegans (which is completely erroneous). My response has been that they must cook their lettuce, or they are in fact susceptible to food borne illness.

[Ignis]

253. You leave yourself open to it by equating the two food risks.

All else being equal, the risk of food-based illness increases in a kitchen that prepares meat.

[JonQ]

87. Meat is actually an extremely efficient way of getting nutrients

to get comparable levels of iron, protein and many essential amino acids you would have to eat very large quantities of diverse groups of vegetables.

[DeSwiss]

124. I guess it depends upon....

...what one means when they say "getting."

[JonQ]

129. Um, injesting?

Digesting, absorbing in to the body, etc. We're pretty well geared to eat small quantities of meat. Not carnivores obviously but we weren't built to be vegetarians either.

[Ignis]

248. "eat...large quantities of diverse groups of vegetables"

Unsurprisingly, that sounds just like the advice offered by good nutritionists over the past few decades.

[Eric J in MN]

53. Try going vegetarian for a week. Alternatives to beef and chicken...

...made from soy or wheat gluten (soyburgers, no-chicken pieces) are now on the shelves of typical supermarkets in the frozen food section.

[tinrobot]

63. Soy and gluten are not particularly healthy, either.

90% of the US soy crop is genetically modified by Monsanto scientists... Many people do not tolerate gluten all that well, either.

If you want to go vegetarian, then do it right. Eat real fruits & vegetables and stay away from faux meat. You'll feel better and not have so many cravings.

[Ignis]

256. Any links to soy and wheat gluten being unhealthy? (nt)

[defendandprotect]

76. Great alternatives are sauteed portobello mushrooms, sliced . . .

Crusty roll or rye bread -- grape tomatoes with lettuce --

Organic beans for a chili -- red peppers - celery/onion -- canned crushed tomatoes -
organic molasses, horseradish mustard -- thyme

Asparagus - Cauliflower -- or broccoli -- sauteed --
placed over a pasta - with olive oil or marinara sauce --

Yellow zuccina -- sliced lengthwise in half -- almost hollow out the zuccini --
mix the removed zuccini with bread crumb mixture, olive oil, celery onions --
refill the scooped out zuccini and bake --
You can also add a few pieces of broccoli to the mix if you wish -- nice combination!
Make a bit of a light marina sauce -- a red pepper one is nice --

[pipoman]

99. And you are cooking all of these things to 165 degrees I assume?

Otherwise you have not avoided the food borne illness which is the subject of this thread.

[Grinchie]

183. You're making me hungry, While Chef Pipoman is turning my stomach

He probably is a lousy chef, who relies on his culinary assortment of fruit, vegetable and meat thermometers instead of thousands of years of experience in selecting quality ingredienst, proper preparation and production.

It seems that all he knows is 160 degrees! For Everything!

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Grinchie]

206. Actually I'm a farmer. I produce everything Organically

And I've been eating my own produce for over 10 years.

That's why you are so threatened by people like me. The ones that actually produce something from the labor of our bodies, out of love of the work involved and not the ridiculous pursuit of money that is printed at will by the Government.

You have to Cherry pick your way through your arguments, being careful to choose only the ones that support your ridiculous point of views which are feverishly designed to instill fear and promote irradiation, which is nothing more than another way for Big Ag to cut more corners when it comes to contamination and separate cleanliness and accountability from the food supply.

Your focus on cooking lettuce to 165 degrees is so ridiculous, I can't even call it a strawman. The absurd levels to which you have gone in this thread has destroyed any credibility you may have attempted to acquire, and I thank you for that.

[pipoman]

210. See, you've mistaken me for someone else

I have not one fucking time in this thread, not once ever, said even anything which can vaguely be perceived as promoting irradiation..not even once, and there have been plenty of opportunities to do so in this thread. I have no fear nor do I care if anyone else does. The fact is I understand as does every single chef and restaurant manager that if we are treating our hot food correctly, the only danger we face of introducing food borne illness is through raw, fresh vegetables. What's the answer? Be as diligent as possible about washing vegetables and hope for the best, that's it...that is my entire message in this thread, none of your imagined nonsense. In fact, you are the one who sees villains where none exist? What are you afraid of?

My comment on cooking lettuce is simply an illustration to idiots who believe that because they only eat vegetables they are not susceptible to food borne illness, which is idiotic. I am sure that this illustration is wayyyy over your head, but maybe, just maybe someone who actually believes this shit will understand what I am saying and at least be careful and understand that they can in fact ingest contaminated vegetables and become ill from same. If you eat, you can become infected with food borne illness, and I don't care what you eat.

[pipoman]

212. Oh, it would be important for a gardener to understand that

if, say, a black rat snake, a frog, or tortoise wanders through your garden and happens to piss on your cucumber, then in the morning dew you retrieve said cucumber, along with a couple nice red tomatoes, a bell pepper and a few nice scallions in your basket and head to the house for lunch, carefully washing your organic dirt off of these delicious morsels. First, you have contaminated all of the veg in the bag with snake piss, second your rinsing off the dirt didn't get rid of the salmonella, and third, you will likely enjoy a loose bowel for a day or so, or maybe bloody stool, in which case it is time to see a doctor. Again, this is my position, not one of combat with vegetarians...always has been..

[Grinchie]

218. Again with the fear mongering

You probably have no clue that everything you mention in your first sentance happes millions of times every day, all over the world, and somehow you would like to imply that this is a rare occurraence, and that people are taking serious risks.

Well guess what, you can also get Leptospirosis through your skin from picking Coffe Beans, or perhaps by picking up some produce on the ground. Or maybe you can eat a tiny slug that has Rat Lungworm larvae in it. There are thousands of ways to get poisoned or parasitized when it comes to harvesting food in the natural enviroment, but you also are at the same risk just walking around.

Your fixation on Salmonella is quite humorous. You find one article from a questionable source and you base the foundation of your whole fear mongering upon it.

The only time I ever got sick from food poisoning is from eating at a restaurant.

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

98. Yea, as a chef I see more gluten allergies and intolerance

than any other food allergies. Not the least of them being Celiac Disease.

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/

[veganlush]

57. vegetarianism is of course, the answer.....

..but it's too soon for many people, in the mean time, everyone should watch the documentary "Food, Inc." It's a real eye-opener without preaching at all.

[pipoman]

62. Vegetables are almost as susceptable to food borne illness as meats

remember the tomato/jalapeno/cilantro epidemic this last year? Romaine lettuce and spinach before that? No, vegetarianism isn't of coarse the answer.

[veganlush]

74. there isn't time or space enough here...

to give the argument it's due, but to begin with, meat consumption even of uncontaminated meat is linked to all of the top killers, there's no honest way of denying that. Except where met by hunting, the demand for meat also requires the torturing of millions of animals each year. Compassion simply does not enhance the bottom-line of meat producers and treating animals as meat machines without any ability to feel is friendlier to the bottom-line and is therefore common practice in the industry. You can deny this, but you have to ignore the facts to do so. People on plant-based diets have less heart disease, stroke, cancer, etc.

[pipoman]

77. This thread isn't about heart disease, stroke, cancer, etc.

it is about food borne illness...nothing else. It is not about all of the real and imagined injustice of meat production, nor the virtues of perceived earth friendly veganism. The fact is that humans consume meat, always have and always will. Unless a person cooks every single thing they put in their mouth to 165 degrees, they are susceptible to food borne illness. And I stand by my statement, "No, vegetarianism isn't of coarse the answer.", the question being that of food borne illness of coarse.

[defendandprotect]

85. Once you're talking about animal-eating, you are talking about risks to health and planet ---

"Imagined injustice of meat production"/? --

Yeah, "The Jungle" was simple exaggeration ---

and things now with factory farming aren't as bad -- !!!

No -- the fact is that the lie you are told of the Garden of Eden is reversed . . .

The message is what Eve continues even today to hold in her hand -- the APPLE --

The true "sin" in the Garden of Eden was bloodletting -- violence against animals.

As the contradictory and schizophrenic Bible does say, "Eat only what grows in the Garden."

[pipoman]

93. Ooookaaay

so jesus told you meat is bad??

And, btw, I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth..

"Imagined injustice of meat production"

You do realize this isn't what I said, right? or are you, uh, "schizophrenic".

[defendandprotect]

105. First, my apologies ....

I did misquote you . . .

It is not about all of the real and imagined injustice of meat production ...

however, was trying to emphasize that it would be unusual for anyone to suggest that there

are "imagined injustices of meat production" -- !!!

Please relate what you think may be any "imagined" injustices of meat production --


Well . . . what is the undistorted truth of the "Jesus" myth . . .

Beginning with the Loaves and Fishes . . . it was actually fishweed -- the word was

mistranslated.

Jesus was said to have been a member of the Essenes -- vegetarian Jews.


"Jesus" stood against the patriarchal traditions of the Old Testament --

Embracing Mary Magdalene as his Apostle to the Apostles --



Granted we cannot WASH systemic artificial fertilizers/chemicals from our vegetables --

However, we can wash away any fecal matter which may reach plants --

INCLUDING, let's note from human sources where pickers are forced to survive without

appropriate access to bathrooms and soap and water.


Nature's message continues to be that our health and the welfare of our planet are connected

to vegetation -- not only as a source of nutrition, but as our natural medicines.

[pipoman]

136. The imagined injustices

are often portrayed by people whose only access to food is the grocery store in urban areas. Claiming all meat production animals are mistreated, or that hunting for purposes of population control and for food is somehow immoral.

Salmonella can't be washed off of vegetables. Cooking to 165 is the surest way to kill salmonella. This is food service sanitation 101.

Salmonella can infect plant cells and successfully evade all the defense mechanisms of plants so cleaning the surfaces of raw fruits and vegetables, e.g. by washing, is not sufficient to protect against food poisoning, according to a study published today.

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/vegetables_and_salmonella_washing_is_not_enough_says_study

As for the biblical stuff, I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

[Grinchie]

187. "If Salmonella infects plant cells"

Sounds like you are jumping the gun here.

Those anonymous articles sure cover all the bases thoroughly, dont' they?

[pipoman]

193. Let's see your links from

anyone who states washing removes salmonella from vegetables...it is accepted by food science everywhere that you are an idiot.

[defendandprotect]

200. See below ...

[Grinchie]

205. I don't doubt that it can happen in Laboratory conditions

Which is exactly what this story is all about. If fact, I can induce cancer in you in about a week given laboratory conditions, so what's your point?

The fact of the matter is that you fail to recognize the hidden motives behind the scientist scrambling for grants, and payola from the Big Ag companies, while at the same time, trying to scare the generally uninformed and gullible population such as yourself.

You are nothing more than a parrot for the propaganda machine that would like to convince people that the tried and true ways of feeding themselves for tens of thousands of years are somehow obsolete and invalid, while all the while ignoring the fact that Modern Agricultural methods are unsanitary, unsustainable, and bad for the environment.

It's people like you that believe the so called "Experts" who are nothing more that false profits of the wonders of technology trying to fix something that they broke.

They are nothing more than Edward Bernay's ghost, wering a lab coat and making decisions for you, but in reality, they are only trying to sell a product or thought.

It's pretty clear that tyou have never spent time on a farm, raising food, or watching the natural processes that occur. I actually pity you myopic view of the world, but at the same time, I will go out of my way to destroy your false claims and robotic repetition of Corporate Propoganda.

I challenge you to strive to eat only irradiated food. Come back in 2 years and tell me all about it.

Chef.. Hah! What are you, a line prep cook at Taco Bell? Get back to assembling the Fourthmeal.

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Grinchie]

221. Try following your states regulations reagrding washing

Maybe then you'll see the they seem to think that washing produce is acceptible.

As a chef, I presume you follow your Department of Health regulations?

[pipoman]

227. Yep, and the state says exactly the same thing I have said throughout this thread..,

that being that salmonella contamination on vegetables can be minimized by washing, but cannot be eliminated. The state knows that where there is eating there will ALWAYS be food borne illness.

[pipoman]

195. Ok, anyone wanting to believe ol' Grinchie, go right ahead'

but for those of you who are naturally leery of message board know-it-alls, here are a few links to illustrate how Grinchie's assertions in this thread are, well, wrong..

While rinsing a tomato under cold water rids the produce of a lot of potentially harmful bacteria, some of these tiny critters are resistant to the shower. Basically, they hang on tight, experts say.

The result can be outbreaks of Salmonella or E. coli in humans, even if we're careful.

http://www.livescience.com/mysteries/080619-llm-washing-fruits.html

Treatment of produce with chlorinated water
reduces populations of pathogenic and other microorganisms on fresh produce but
cannot eliminate them. Reduction of risk for human illness associated with raw
produce can be better achieved through controlling points of potential
contamination in the field; during harvesting; during processing or distribution; or
in retail markets, food-service facilities, or the home.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol3no4/adobe/beuchat.pdf

[defendandprotect]

201. Yep, "blood and guts-fecal matter-Mad Cow" factory is superior to fruit and vegetation . . .!!!

We all know that, of course -- :sarcasm:


:evilgrin:

[pipoman]

208. I didn't, not once, say one single thing disparaging to vegetarians or vegans

It is you vegtians (you know, you are to vegetarianism what Pat Robertson is to christianity), who espouse all the virtues of snake oil to your chosen diet. There may well be health benefits to eating vegetarian, avoidance of food borne illness isn't one of them as is demonstrated time and again with food poisoning outbreaks in vegetables. See you really need to accept your choices as good for you, quit proselytizing falsehoods, and enjoy your choice.

[defendandprotect]

213. And no one but YOU is suggesting that you did . . .

Very clearly, what you have been trying to do is equate the many dangers of animal-eating

with the eating of vegetation -- that's all.


Pat Robertson supports capitalism and animal-eating . . . that's why he fears feminists!!

OTOH, Mother Nature endows vegetation with "virtue" . . . it is not only our nutrition, plants

are our natural medicines.

Again -- the basis of salmonella poisoning is FECAL matter --

but since vegetables do not produce fecal matter, it has to be introduced by being exposed

to animal products -- or to human filth.

We have seen that vegetation wrapped in plastics causes a problem -- that's certainly is true.

This is basically a processed product and any time you "process" any food you add to the

likelihood that it will be contaminated.

There is no comparison to a diet based on blood-letting and slaugther --

and kill zones contaminated with animal fecal matter.

[pipoman]

215. Holy cow...~snick~

wow..:silly:

[Name removed]

224. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

226. Really you believe this shit too?

wait a minute...do you'se twos go to the same celery worshiping church? I'll bet you do..there can't be more than one or two people on the planet who would view these statements as "well said" (your post #223)..

"Pat Robertson supports capitalism and animal-eating . . . that's why he fears feminists!!"

"Mother Nature endows vegetation with "virtue""

"Animal-eating IMO is fairly recent --probably begins with the Bible and it's other exploitive messages/licenses for the profit"

"But we can WASH away contamination that occurs in the garden and by pickers who often do not have appropriate access to bathrooms, soap and water!"

Now, don't you have some broccolini to pray to?

[Grinchie]

223. Well said Defend.

You nailed the salient points so well that Pipokid had to use a disparaging remark because he was eviscerated by it.

[Grinchie]

222. Your ferocity is astounding in your ability to twist in the wind while to strive to avoid the facts.

Your absolutist attitude regarding the terrifying horrors of maybe gettin a bacteria or two along with our food is amazingly naive.

You have every human eating absolutely sterile food if you had your way, but the fact of the matter is that we have evolved to handle a few organisms in our meals, despite your assertion that we should all be terrified of a few that slip through.

Well it's not the way it is. People eat tons of rat shit ground up in their Corn Flakes, Flours, Bread, and what have you. You are eating moldy peanuts in the Peanut Butter. You are eating the moldy residue from unleaned machinery every day. You are eating numerous chemicals and ingredients that are not food at all.

I guess you don't remember Peanut Corporation of America..

While semantically correct in your statements, your message is more bent toward fear mongering that actual information. The trouble is that you are latched on to your salmonella as a part of plant biology that is so whacked out.. If thats the case, than vegetables and fruits would be banned, but for some reason, the facts don't back up your statements.

[pipoman]

245. I missed this bit of psychosis earlier..

Your absolutist attitude regarding the terrifying horrors of maybe gettin a bacteria or two along with our food is amazingly naive.

My position throughout this thread, and in my daily life is and has been, "If a person eats, they absolutely will encounter food borne illness, without regard for that person's diet".

You have every human eating absolutely sterile food if you had your way, but the fact of the matter is that we have evolved to handle a few organisms in our meals, despite your assertion that we should all be terrified of a few that slip through.

Really simple. Not once have I advocated sterilization of all food, not once mind you. The only objection I have had since joining this thread is a contention by a few vegetarian/vegan posters who used this conversation about food borne illness in meat to state that they are not subject to food borne illness because of their diet...which is nonsense. I have never once in this thread suggested that anyone should or is afraid of anything. The only statement I have made which is even close is that I know, in my kitchen, that the only way anyone is going to get ill is through raw vegetables which I serve hundreds of pounds per month...this is beyond my control, beyond safe handling and preparation...there have been restaurants hurt and ruined over such things which were through no fault of their own, just luck of the draw on case lot numbers of the raw vegetables.

People eat tons of rat shit ground up in their Corn Flakes, Flours, Bread, and what have you. You are eating moldy peanuts in the Peanut Butter. You are eating the moldy residue from unleaned machinery every day. You are eating numerous chemicals and ingredients that are not food at all.

I completely and totally agree with every word (well, except for "unleaned"..uncleaned I could go along with). And while I wish it wasn't so, it is and there isn't anything that can be done about it. At the same time, in the long, long history of eating, biological contamination consumption in the US is probably at all time lows. This is what makes me crazy about the 'need' for adding ammonia to hamburger, proper handling and preparation would render that other poster's '17% fecal contamination' silliness at least not harmful for human consumption. Cooking 17% shit mixed with your hamburger will not harm you if cooked to 165 degrees. Disgusting? Yep..but true.

While semantically correct in your statements, your message is more bent toward fear mongering that actual information.

Then you haven't read my statements in context.

The trouble is that you are latched on to your salmonella as a part of plant biology that is so whacked out..

Where? Where have I ever said such a thing? I haven't. I have said and fully stand by, 'you should wash your vegetables, but it absolutely will not completely eliminate salmonella contamination'. And you disagree with this I am guessing?

If thats the case, than vegetables and fruits would be banned, but for some reason, the facts don't back up your statements.

Uh, no, the truth, which everyone who eats either does agree with or should, and food safety people around the country would agree with is

My post #64..There is inherent danger in eating and there always has been..if you eat, and I am going out on a limb here and guessing most of us do, you are at risk of the effects of food borne illness, and I don't care what you eat. If we can minimize the threat without killing ourselves, good.

My post #115..And you really need to understand, that in the long, long, long history of eating, we are likely at historical and prehistorical lows for food borne illness..and any food which is processed whether vegetable or meat is susceptible to bacterial contamination as has been proven over and over with vegetable food poisoning outbreaks.

[Ignis]

243. Look, Grinchie can play fast and loose with the facts, but ...

That doesn't give you carte blanche to act like a dick, either. :spank:

Your ad hominems do nothing to advance your argument. :thumbsdown:

[pipoman]

246. Yea,

if you look through this thread, long as it is, you will see there were no ad hominems until grinchie arrived. His very first post in this thread, which has been deleted, was a vile ad hom directed at me. Some people I have found here on du, don't know how to participate in civil discourse, nor do they understand civil language. I usually give them what they want until I get bored.

[Ignis]

247. Suit yourself.

But when I see Person A screaming and Person B calmly and rationally refuting the content of those screams, I find myself much more willing to listen to what is being said than when I pass by two crazy people screaming at each other.

YMMV.

[Name removed]

258. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

259. The post in reference (#188)

is perhaps the 4th or 5th post I have alerted on in my 5 years. It was in fact "extremely vile stuff", the mods knew it, and the words 'noob' and/or 'troll' were not in the post.the words "Do your parent's know how stupid you are?" were in the post..in fact there were absolutely no civil language in the post at all..no comment on the content of the post you were responding to...just personal attack. I have had posts deleted in this thread too..I am sure they were justified deletions based on the rules, but then I'm not one to blame poor play by my sons on their baseball teams on the coaches or the umpires either.

[Name removed]

262. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

199. Salmonella can come from animal or human FECES . . ..

How is Salmonella transmitted to humans?

Salmonellosis is spread to people by ingestion of Salmonella bacteria that contaminate food. Salmonella is worldwide and can contaminate almost any food type, but recent outbreaks of the disease involve raw eggs, raw meat (ground beef and other poorly cooked meats), egg products, fresh vegetables, cereal, pistachio nuts, and contaminated water.

Contamination can come from animal or human feces that contact the food during its processing or harvesting.

New data about types of food contamination (food poisoning by Salmonella spp) is available from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) or the FDA. See, for example, the second last Web citation below. Potential direct sources of Salmonella are pets such as turtles, dogs, cats, most farm animals, and humans that are infected or are carriers of the organisms.

How can Salmonella infections be prevented?

Cleanliness is a key to prevention. Hand washing with soap and hot water, especially after handling eggs, poultry, and raw meat is likely to reduce the chance for infections.

The use of antibacterial soaps has been recommended by some investigators.

By using chlorine-treated drinking water, washed produce, and by not ingesting undercooked foods such as eggs, meat or other food, people can also reduce the chance of exposure to Salmonella.

Avoiding direct contact with animal carriers of Salmonella (for example, turtles, snakes, pigs) also may prevent the disease.

Public-health authorities that enforce restaurant cleanliness and employee hand washing have helped in general prevention.

http://www.medicinenet.com/salmonella/page2.htm


And, of course, the added problems of MAD COW ... which impacts not only the cows we've fed

other animals to, but chickens, goats and every other animal used as cannibals in the "meat-

producing" industry!



As for the biblical stuff, I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

Don't think about it -- that might be too unusual a workout for you.


Further, Mother Nature doesn't rely on humans to control animal populations --
We are destroying animal life and fostering it based on the suicidal culture pf exploitation
we have developed.

[pipoman]

209. Has anyone here said otherwise? Certainly not me.

Oh, and BTW, let's get back to that 17% figure you keep throwing around. How about a link to that. Funny, I did a Google search and only came up with posts authored by YOU here on DU, no scientific, government, or any other links. Tell us all what the fuck you are talking about, huh?

[defendandprotect]

214. Do you think the USDA would be advertising that 17% fecal matter on carcasses??

It has been common knowledge --

If you want to check on it, you'd probably have to call one of the Congress

reps who fight the USDA and their lax "regualtions."

However, 17% fecal matter on carcasses was the old figure -- who knows what W was allowing!!

[pipoman]

216. If it were "common knowledge" it would fucking

be plastered over a google search instead of your posts here on du. It does appear that YOU are, in fact, the only one spouting this anywhere on the planet. Now tell us all why we shouldn't believe you pulled the 17% from your salmonella hole?

On edit...What the fuck does that even mean? "17% fecal matter on carcasses", that the mass is made up of 17% fecal matter? That it is sprayed with a 17% solution of fecal matter? It has 17% coverage of fecal matter? What does it mean?

[defendandprotect]

229. What it means is that animal carcasses will pass USDA inspection even with 17%

fecal matter --

Meanwhile, you usually will hear these things from Democrats when there is a debate

or a hearing --

Again, if you want to find out, you'll have to find out from Congress.

And, I'd also suggest you shape up your debate because you're close to being on "ignore."

That may be what you want?

bye --

[pipoman]

231. Why would I care if you want to block out people with opposing views?

And frankly, if you read my posts, every one in this thread, starting with the lowest number working your way up, without reading anything into my posts, you would find that we disagree about few things. In fact, our exchanges prior to Grinch injecting himself into this, were basically civil. The main thing being, if you believe that vegans and vegetarians are shielded from food borne illness, regardless of when that contamination is introduced or who was at fault, then yes, we disagree. We would also disagree if you believe that simply washing veg is going to shield you from food borne illness..My stance is and has always been that we all have occasional bouts with food borne illness..regardless of our diet. We all hope not to contract a particularly nasty strain, or have a bad reaction to a less nasty strain, and usually we don't. I simply don't believe for an instant that anyone who is a vegan or vegetarian and eat a lot and a variety of raw vegetables from grocery stores or restaurants, don't have occasional upset stomach and/or diarrhea which if properly diagnosed would be some form of food borne illness..completely beyond their control..Risk can be reduced by proper handling, storage, and preparation, but the risk cannot be completely eliminated. So yes, by all means, push the ignore button.

[pipoman]

232. ....

What it means is that animal carcasses will pass USDA inspection even with 17% fecal matter

So you are maintaining that USDA will pass a beef carcass weighing 700 pounds, 119 pounds of which is feces? Complete idiocy..that right there is..

Still no link to anyone else on the planet who has said such a thing..nothing. If this had ever even been discussed in congress it would be in the congressional record..can't find it there either.

Again, if you want to find out, you'll have to find out from Congress

Uh, no, it is generally accepted by pretty much everyone on this site (and in society in general discussion) that the person offering statistics (particularly precise statistics as in this case), has the responsibility to disclose the source of those statistics...so far they are only attributable to you and you alone...ON THE WHOLE PLANET!

edit..Maybe it is this painful truth that would drive you to placing me on the dreaded defendandprotect ignore list??

[defendandprotect]

230. dupe --

fecal matter --

Meanwhile, you usually will hear these things from Democrats when there is a debate

or a hearing --

Again, if you want to find out, you'll have to find out from Congress.

And, I'd also suggest you shape up your debate because you're close to being on "ignore."

That may be what you want?

bye --

[JonQ]

96. That's one of the more interesting arguments for abandoning meat eating

"god told me to".

[defendandprotect]

116. Well, you must be skipping a lot of the other anti-animal messages

Mother Nature is passing on to you --

What I quoted from the Bible about eating "ONLY" what grows in the Garden --

while mentioning that there is a counter message -- was simply to indicate how

long ago these contradictory messages were delivered -- and what the subject was.

Much of the Bible is contradictory . . . mainly to erase a "Jesus" who was pretty

much a Commie!!

"Jesus" may have also been bi-sexual . . . !!


Happy New Year -- :)

[WriteDown]

169. Huh?

So how is lithium anyway?

[defendandprotect]

80. PLUS impact on the planet . . .

Agree, animal-eating has mental and physical consequences --

Animal/dairy eating connected to cancers, breast cancer, glaucoma, juvenile diabetes,

diabetes, hypertension, heart attack, strokes --

on and on -

And, in fact, though the FDA never conducted a campaign to warn women and warn families . . .

SPINA BIFIDA is caused by a lack of folate -- folic acid in its synthetic form --

in the diets of females. It's the basic cause of neural cord disorders!!

When this connection was made -- and I think it was probably more than a dozen years ago --

FDA never made an attempt to inform women!!!

Finally, they were sued to get the info out -- but the only response by FDA was to add

folic acid to flour !!

Some of the foundations connected to raising money for pre-natal diseases have added the

info to their advice on diet. But still no major campaign to alert females and families!!!

There's also a 10% connection to Down's Syndrome from a lack of folate in the female diet!

[Grinchie]

184. Hey, it's hard to make it across an 1100 foot field to the porta potties in a Spinach field.

The laborers just used the next best thing to toilet paper around. and that is not meant as a slight to the laborers, but a point that toilet paper substitutes have been long known as plant leaves.

[JonQ]

88. Several people have made this erroneous conclusion

conveniently ignoring all the outbreaks of food borne illnesses in produce.

[defendandprotect]

108. Vegetation can be contaminated by humans handling foods when they

are unclean -- fecal matter can be passed on --

HOWEVER, vegetables can be cleaned -- unlike "chopped meat" --

What we cannot clean, however, is the systemic chemicals used to "fertilize" vegetation ...


Nature over and again makes clear that bloodletting and violence leads to illness/disease --

Animal/dairy eating is responsible for many diseases . . . cancer/breast cancer, glaucoma,

heart attack, stroke, hypertension, juvenile diabetes, diabetes --

and a lack of sufficient FOLATE in the diet of the female is responsible for neural cord

disorders in newborns -- i.e., SPINA BIFIDA --

and also connected to "Down's Syndrome" -- 10%.

[JonQ]

119. You're just trolling right?

"HOWEVER, vegetables can be cleaned -- unlike "chopped meat" -- "

Which is cooked, which sterilizes it pretty well. Which do you suppose is going to have more live bacteria on average; a well done burger or lettuce rinsed briefly under a cold tap?

"What we cannot clean, however, is the systemic chemicals used to "fertilize" vegetation ..."

Yes you can, you can rinse those off. And the alternative to chemical fertilizers is manure, which is the source of all these problems.

"Nature over and again makes clear that bloodletting and violence leads to illness/disease --"

Bullshit.

"Animal/dairy eating is responsible for many diseases . . . cancer/breast cancer, glaucoma,"

No, that has never been proven. That is your assertion.

"and a lack of sufficient FOLATE in the diet of the female is responsible for neural cord

disorders in newborns -- i.e., SPINA BIFIDA -- "

Which has fuck all to do with anything on this thread. BTW, liver is a great source of not only iron, but folate as well.

"and also connected to "Down's Syndrome" -- 10%."

No, again you're just making stuff up. You are coming off as either a troll or a religious fanatic .

[defendandprotect]

128. So... if FECAL matter is cooked, it's OKay ... ??? What?

A. Lettuce will have less --

A. No . . . systemic means throughout the food -- it cannot be washed off!

A. FECAL matter is not fertilizer no matter how many suggest it is!

COMPOST is fertilizer -- and unused vegetation turned over and pushed back into the soil

is fertilizer.

A. Comment on your debating skills and knowledge . . . "Bullshit"

A. Ignoring the reality of animal/dairy eating, still means you're ignoring reality.

If you or any other females within your family do not understand the connection between

eating vegetation and a healthy skeletal structure, then you'd be wise to learn about it!

Most of us want knowledge that would prevent prenatal illness such as Spina Bifida and

Down's Syndrome.

A. Granted you're underinformed -- and again, trying to kill the messenger.

Go look this info up -- Try Physicans for Preventive Medicine/Dr. Barnard.

Look at March of Dimes info on this now.

A. The fact that you're underinformed doesn't mean that someone who has info is a "troll"

or a "religious fanatic" . . .

:evilgrin:



Bye --

[JonQ]

132. For every insane bald faced lie you post about eating meat

I'm going to go club and grill a baby seal.

Starting now.

So be careful, their blood will be on your hands.

[defendandprotect]

135. That should be "0" then . . .

[JonQ]

154. That's another one

and I'm going to eat 2 for the whole "eating meat is a new thing that started because of the bible" one that was just too egregious.



This must be getting on your conscience by now. Think of all the baby seals, dead by your actions. What will mother earth think?

[veganlush]

141. if you look into how and why e coli gets on produce...

you'll find some interesting facts. Most of it is from watering with factory farm effluent. E coli in the fecal matter of cattle is a result of feeding the cattle corn, which they were not designed to consume. The poor digestion causes intestinal conditions in the cattle that makes an ideal breeding ground for e coli. Grass fed cattle digest their food better and have far less incidence of e coli. The documentary "Food Inc." covers this issue pretty well.

Factory farms can consist of tens of thousands of large animals.They are like large slums which produce huge amounts of waste. If they were human slums they would fit right in to a poverty stricken third-world scenario. Of course, these animals are much larger than humans so the output of waste is magnified. The cheap corn that feeds these poor animals is subsidized by the taxpayer making the unhealthy, cruel business of factory farming among the biggest of welfare queens.

[pipoman]

150. Corn

and grain in general is a small part of the diet of meat animals. It is cost prohibitive over the year and a half it takes to take a calf to slaughter weight. Most cattle raisers feed a very small amount of grain with the bulk of the cattle diet being grasses either fresh or dried and baled. Now during the last 6 weeks or so before slaughter, beef cattle are often restricted in movement and fed high carb diet of grain and simple sugars like molasses.

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

194. You sir or maam

are the only person in this thread who is an idiot. Tell me of your vast experience in beef production...and I will know you are lying the second you open your mouth based simply on this one post and the post it is responding to.

[pipoman]

64. There is inherent danger in eating

and there always has been..if you eat, and I am going out on a limb here and guessing most of us do, you are at risk of the effects of food borne illness, and I don't care what you eat. If we can minimize the threat without killing ourselves, good. What happens to the ammonia when the meat is cooked? I am guessing it dissipates completely at a relatively low temperature?

[defendandprotect]

111. Why skip the message that

nature is giving you about what you are eating?

You're jumping hurdles to try to stick with an idea that is basically killing

humans and the planet!!

[pipoman]

115. And you really need to understand,

that in the long, long, long history of eating, we are likely at historical and prehistorical lows for food borne illness..and any food which is processed whether vegetable or meat is susceptible to bacterial contamination as has been proven over and over with vegetable food poisoning outbreaks. What message is nature telling you if you eat a strawberry with salmonella contamination and you get the shits? That eating strawberries is going to kill off humankind?

[defendandprotect]

120. 17% fecal matter on carcasses is a "pehistorical low for food borne illness" . . .???

Animal-eating IMO is fairly recent --

probably begins with the Bible and it's other exploitive messages/licenses for the profit

of the few . . . i.e., "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --

The Old Testament was written to cement patriarchy --

As soon as you see "patriarchy" you know there is violence --

Violence would have begun with attacking animals -- and then spread to attacking other humans.

What the "strawberry" tells us is to WASH vegetation --

Of course, we can't wash away the systemic chemicals that have penetrated the food when not

grown organically --

But we can WASH away contamination that occurs in the garden and by pickers who often do not

have appropriate access to bathrooms, soap and water!

The same is not true for "chopped meat" for instance --

Or watch a TV host from time to time taking a plastic package of meat and using it without

washing it!

We are still also facing the issue of "MAD COW" of course --

[JonQ]

122. "Animal-eating IMO is fairly recent "

Do you even read what you type before hitting "post"?

[defendandprotect]

130. Do you?

[pipoman]

139. Let's see your 17% cite, first of all.

But yes, we certainly do have increasingly more protections in place to minimize the risk of food borne illness, and better understanding of the causes of food borne illness than ever before in the history of humanity.



Animal-eating IMO is fairly recent --

probably begins with the Bible and it's other exploitive messages/licenses for the profit

Nonsense, and the earth is flat too.



In early 2009 a major Clovis cache, now called the Mahaffey Cache was found in Boulder, Colorado, with 83 Clovis stone tools. The tools were found to have traces of horse and cameloid protein, which were dated to 13,000 to 13,500 YBP, a date confirmed by sediment layers in which the tools were found and the types of protein residues found on the artifacts.

The clovis is a hunting point found in proximity to animal remains and fire pits.

But we can WASH away contamination that occurs in the garden and by pickers who often do not

have appropriate access to bathrooms, soap and water!

Again, no...no you cannot wash salmonella off of vegetables, you are wrong about this.

[JonQ]

126. Nature gave me taste buds

and those are telling me that a nice juicy steak is delicious.

"
You're jumping hurdles to try to stick with an idea that is basically killing

humans and the planet!!"

Now I've never eaten a human before, that I know of at least. Perhaps a nice grain fed, free range specimen? A vegan in other words? Nah, too bland.

[defendandprotect]

131. Is even your dog safe from being eaten?

[JonQ]

133. Depends on how hungry I get I suppose

and the same is true of you as well.

Skip enough meals and anything becomes lunch. The only difference between people is how many meals (also, seasoning preferences).

[defendandprotect]

134. I believe you --

[veganlush]

66. !

[pipoman]

83. Oh, it is also interesting that many veg/grain crops are fertilized with ammonia..n/t

[scentopine]

89. I bet they are trying to figure out how to approve cow shit as an additive -n

[defendandprotect]

121. "Toxic waste is good for you" . . . all the live long day -- !!! They've been trying!!

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

100. Do a Google searach on Eldon N Roth...

...and his political contributions immediately come up, namely Joel Dykstra, the Republican who ran against Tim Johnson, D-SD for the Senate seat from South Dakota in 2008. Nothing good to talk about there. Mr. Dykstra has been linked to fraud in agricultural endeavors, himself.

[kegler14]

107. Join PETA

People Eating Tasty Animals.

[Ignis]

244. Nah, I think you'd fit in better in DIAF.

:hi:

[Quantess]

260. That's so clever and original! Did you make that up just now?

[Strelnikov_]

145. Mr. Clean . . It's What's For Dinner n/t

[No Elephants]

148. As profoundly impressive as assurances from message board posters about irradiation

may be, one more thread like this and I'm a vegetarian for the rest of my life.

It doesn't help me when assurances come from the RWers, either. I don't trust anything they claim.

[JonQ]

153. Then don't trust anyone on here on it

look up the facts for yourself.

[The Cats Mother]

186. On the subject of food irradiation

This is my debut post. Hello everyone. Really pleased to find a forum such as this that challenges the status quo and accepts people getting on their soapboxes. I do expect to be challenged because not everyone thinks the same way about everything, however I have had some recent challenges on other forums that began with "don't talk rubbish" and other such attacks. I am fairly thick-skinned but I do get upset/annoyed by that sort of approach, and I hope that is less likely to happen here andI get the feeling is a forum that is supportive of and respectful toward people with extreme views whether they agree or not. That said, I would like to throw my hat in the ring with the following information on the subject of food irradiation.

I did quick search and saw that the subject has come up several times before - that's encouraging!

I live in Australia. Some of you might have heard this time last year about the cats here that became paralysed and/or died as a result of eating gamma irradiated pet food imported from Canada. I am the owner of one such cat. She survived the ordeal and is still rehabilitating, was quadriplegic and mute at one stage, has since regained her voice and is now paralysed in the rear limbs only and incontinent. This has been absolutely devastating for me so please be mindful.

Along with others I campaigned and we eventually got the Government to agree to cease offering irradiation as a quarantine treatment for cat food - the campaign continues to get this extended to all pet food. In its decision, the Government relied upon the evidence of our cats here, the published paper written by the vet neurologist in charge of the cats, and published studies from overseas that came out around the same time relating to cats becoming paralysed when fed an irradiated diet. I can provide references to these if desired.

I would like to offer this thought. To those scientists (and perhaps non-scientist pro-irradiationists) that say "ah but it seems to be just species sensitive, no other pets/people have succumbed" I say this:
Something "didn't happen to the cats" - something happened to the FOOD. The cats just happen to have a very overt and clearly definable pattern in the reaction they have. We don't know what effects might be slowly accumulating in dogs fed irradiated diet, for instance, that won't show up for some time and might just be thought to be "old age" or "weak kidneys" or whatever. The syndrome in cats, while there was variation between cats, was uniform in that it showed delayed onset (average 4 months from commencement of feeding), a set of symptoms a selection of which was manifested by each cat affected, and in some cases proved fatal. Autopsies showed demyelination of the nerves of the CNS and in some cases brain lesions. There may be a set of symptoms developing in humans exposed on a regular basis to irradiated food that just develops more slowly and is less overt. Also we have to consider that humans don't eat the same food at every meal so the exposure isn't so regular.

Anyway - some "food for thought" from me and I can promise you it hasn't been irradiated!

Thanks for reading and considering.

[bananas]

240. Welcome to DU, Cat Mom!

Some DU forums you might be interested in:
Environment/Energy: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=115
Health: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=222
Science: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=228

[fascisthunter]

204. Anyone Know What the Long-term Effects of Ingesting Ammonia Are on the Human Body?

I don't, but I hope to find out sooner than later.

[WriteDown]

236. As long as you're not producing urine then you are fine. nt

[bitchkitty]

251. Disgusting.

This makes me feel good about going back to a plant based diet.

[Socal31]

254. I will make sure that my filet tonight is medium+ instead of just medium.

[Ignis]

257. For _Red Dwarf_ fans only:

Every time we have this discussion over the subject of food irradiation--particularly in relation to meat--I can't get the following bit out of my head:

Rimmer: 140,000 rehydratedable chickens.
Lister: Check.
Rimmer: 72 tons of reconstitutable sausage pate.
Lister: Check.
Rimmer: 4,691 irradiated haggis.
Lister: Rimmer, it's Saturday night. I've had enough.
Rimmer: 4,691 irradiated haggis.
Lister: Rimmer, it's Saturday night. I wanna boogie on down.
Rimmer: 4,691 irradiated haggis.
Lister: We've been doing this for four hours. Let's have a break.
Rimmer: 4,691 irradiated haggis.
Lister: Rimmer, will you stop saying 4,681 eradiated haggis and speak to me?
Rimmer: 4,691 irradiated haggis.
Lister: Rimmer, I want to go for a drink!
Rimmer: 4,691 irradiated haggis.
Lister: Rimmer, I wanna have some fun!
Rimmer: This is fun! Are you mad?

-- from the episode Balance of Power

[Blue_Tires]

261. ttt