France Socialist party opposes burka ban

[demoleft]

Source: bbc

France's opposition Socialists have come out against a law banning the burka - even though they remain firmly opposed to the garment.
...
Mr Sarkozy has left open the idea of introducing legislation to ban the burka.

While the Socialist Party opposes the wearing of the burka, it was "not favourable" to a legal ban, said party spokesman Benoit Hamon.

"We are totally opposed to the burka," he told French radio. "The burka is a prison for women and has no place in the French Republic. But an ad-hoc law would not have the anticipated effect."


Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8443989.stm

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agreed on the opposition, but for different reasons.
such choices of private life are something that should not be ruled by state laws.

i do not like the burka, but i want the women to be free to choose.

[stray cat]

1. I agree but wonder how free the women in a household are to choose otherwise

[demoleft]

2. yes, it's my doubt as well. but it's a struggle that, in different guise, the western women fought.

a slow process but a steady one will take place for them too.
enforced by law feels just like limitating free will and generating tension.

[ChangoLoa]

33. +1

[Tailormyst]

21. They aren't

They also aren't free to speak out about it.

[proudohioan]

3. Agreed

Banning personal choices always reminds me of book banning; at what point does it stop?
BTW, I don't like the burka either.

[MissMillie]

25. +1

I can't imagine that I'd ever choose to wear one, but if there someone out there who wants to wear one, she should be allowed to.

[EFerrari]

27. We don't allow husbands to tie ropes around their wives' necks

when they are out in public, either. It stops at common sense and human rights violations. When you prevent a person from seeing and moving freely, it stops right there.

[pampango]

4. France Socialist party opposes burka ban

Source: BBC

France's opposition Socialists have come out against a law banning the burka - even though they remain firmly opposed to the garment.

President Nicolas Sarkozy had said the burka was "not welcome" in France, home to Europe's largest Muslim population. Mr Sarkozy has left open the idea of introducing legislation to ban the burka.

While the Socialist Party opposes the wearing of the burka, it was "not favourable" to a legal ban, said party spokesman Benoit Hamon. "We are totally opposed to the burka," he told French radio. "The burka is a prison for women and has no place in the French Republic. But an ad-hoc law would not have the anticipated effect."

Jean-Francois Cope, the parliamentary leader of Mr Sarkozy's party, has said he would put forward a bill this month banning the wearing of the veil in public, as a means of defending France against "extremists". In 2004, France controversially banned Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols in state schools and by public employees.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8443989.stm

[sui generis]

5. I agree on the burka ban.

I would also ban anything that covers up ones identifying facial features that isn't medically necessary. By making it YET AGAIN about Islam the point of making it illegal to entirely conceal oneself in public is missed entirely.

There is no shade of the law that prevents me from wearing a burka as a man. I'll bet you if men offered to wear burkas even some Islamists would balk at "allowing" burkas in public.

Really - if you wanted to live somewhere that burkas were fashionable, why come here? If you don't like the loose morals and western law, why come to the west? Why bring the very worst crap of your cultures of origin with you when you leave your country? There is a reason many islamic countries aren't great places to live. Guys, you're in rome now.

Ultimately, I don't personally care, but I can easily tap into the zeitgeist anger.

[demosincebirth]

14. I agree with you, but some don't understand that its impossible for

security, in this age, to go around covered from head to toe. Any way, I just don't understand why any women would wear a burka of her own free will. It has to be the muslim males pushing, wearing, burkas. I wonder what they would say if they lived in Phoenix, Az, in the summer.

[Tailormyst]

22. They would probably suffer through it without complaint

The reaction to them within their community effectively keeps most quite and enslaved.

[ChangoLoa]

34. Burka doesn't exist in France

It's tajik/afghan. This law is about nikab. Arab nikab. They've counted 1,500-2,000 women wearing it in France. It suddenly became a problem after 9-11. What a coincidence, isn't it? Sorry if I'm a bit skeptical about the right and extreme right wing's sudden interest on muslim women's rights. I'm just afraid that they're not solving anything with a simple ban and that their real problem is the "national identity"... cf. Sarkozy, Berlusconi, etc. cf. the people who want to emphasize the "christian roots" of the European Union in the Constitution.... cf. the ban of the minarets... cf. a lot more stuff happening in Europe aiming to marginalize the "also muslim identity" of Europe.

[h9socialist]

6. I agree with the Socialist Party . . .

A government ban is not likely to resolve anything. Outlawing articles of clothing hasn't been particularly successful in achieving understanding between anybody.

[h9socialist]

7. Let me elaborate . . .

If a woman is being forced to wear a burka, then the law should protect her from having to submit. But if she chooses to wear a burka (or some other article of religious faith), I can't see how the law could stop her without fundamentally violating her religious freedom. My guess is that most women, even Muslim women, don't want anything to do with wearing a burka. But I can't see how enforcing a ban on such an item will do anything but cause tension.

[EFerrari]

8. There is no way the government can intrude in her home

and force her male relatives to stop suppressing her by making her wear a shroud.

I hope the ban goes through. It will help a lot of women.

[h9socialist]

11. So, with the ban . . .

. . . will the French government enter homes to ban the burka? Don't get me wrong, I think religious-hooey should never be allowed to overwhelm basic civil rights. My only observation is that to some people "religious-hooey" is a basic civil right -- can you deny the exercise of those rights without becoming authoritarian?

[EFerrari]

12. The ban is for wearing the burka in public.

I think it gives much needed support to women who would like to see when they are out on the street and to move their arms and legs without being hampered.

The burka is an instrument of immediate control over a human body.

They can do anything they like (or are forced to do) in their homes.

[demoleft]

38. i agree with you in hating the function of the burka but...

...i do not like law to tell me what and how much i have to dress in public.

in many italian catholic churches, 1st on top st peter in the vatican, there are restrictions for women who want to enter while wearing a miniskirt or a decollete. something very common among women tourists in summer.

few like that restriction because, at root, it implies there's something shameful and sinful in showing the flesh of woman's body (old catholic obsession, as you know).
so dresses in that case have the function to control individual will and beliefs.

while u can't discuss it in st. peter, in the Vatican, independent state - it's sometimes argued with funny summer little accidents here and there in the rest of the nation, where churches are located on italian land.

i would not like italian law to decide how much dressed a woman should be to enter a church or a public office.
a law is a form of control as well.
it can't be too tight. and the anti-burka law feels a bit like that - too invading the personal sphere.

(and sorry for being so long here!)

:)

[Tailormyst]

24. They don't wear them in the home.........

[Tailormyst]

23. Generally even those who "choose" don't really choose

They are pressured from their community to conform.

[ChangoLoa]

31. +1, the result is that they won't be allowed to go out.

There will always be ONE case where a woman will wear it freely. I think it's very counter-productive to treat this issue with a plain ban. Sign of political laziness. I agree with the french PS. Moreover, is it a huge coincidence that almost nobody was giving a damn about this issue before 9-11? The European right-wing says it's based on woman rights, I don't believe a word. Too much coincidence. This seems to be radicalism vs. radicalism.

[Odin2005]

9. The fucking cultural relativist fake left-wingers strike again.

[Enthusiast]

10. This is an instance

of overreach by the "loony left". The burka is symbolic of the most extreme repression of women on earth. Of course if French Muslim women wish to submit to such extreme garment restrictions they can do it in the home where no one but family members have to witness such cruelty and repression. Come on, folks, this is France we are talking about.

[Quantess]

13. I wonder if the French Socialist Party consists largely of Muslims?

[EFerrari]

15. Anyone who supports this should consider wearing the burka for a week.

Because people shouldn't write checks their @ss can't cash.

[AlphaCentauri]

20. agree n/t

[ChangoLoa]

32. Opposing the ban doesn't mean supporting the burka/nikab.

The european right-wing has been supporting this ban for years, especially the extreme right. All this new "consciousness" about the muslim women's rights started right after 9-11. A tremendous coincidence you think? Somehow, I don't believe the european conservatives' fresher than fresh interest on muslim women. My opinion is that they're concerned about Islam, not human rights.

What about a woman wearing her nikab freely? Shall we utterly rule out this possibility?

I don't agree with a simple ban because it doesn't solve the real problem. This kind of abuses, when they are made, should be addressed with education and by creating better law enforcement mechanisms. It is indeed very complicated to do so and it takes time as well, but it seems to be the only way to find a long term real solution. You can't win a fight against radicalism with more radicalism.

[EFerrari]

35. For some people, this "new" consciousness is not new.

You are probably right about the French right wing nutcases but the ban would still be useful for women who are pressured by their community to wear the burka. It would be much harder to keep up the practice.

[David__77]

16. I agree with banning burkas in public places.

In private residences of non-public establishment - fine. I cannot understand opposition to this measure.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

17. I think the burqa should be banned in public places

I am deaf and know many hard of hearing public servants and this does a disservice to them. We want to show that we can do our jobs and this garment prevents us from giving the woman a service.

If we ask her to remove it, what would happen to us?

[marshall]

18. In the true spirit of Voltaire!

As Evelyn Hall said in her biography concerning the great French writer: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

[EFerrari]

26. I don't see any possible comparison between free speech

and women being compelled to shroud themselves in public by their subculture.

[marshall]

28. It's quite the opposite--in reference to France, not the Middle East

The issue is compelling women to shroud themselves in public, it's compelling women NOT to shroud themselves in public.

France isn't wrestling over the notion of whether or not these women are being forced or coerced or bribed into wearing the burka. They are considering making it illegal for women to wear the burka AT ALL.

They already have laws in place that protect women who choose to stop wearing the burka. One hopes they continue to keep laws in place that protect women who 'choose' to wear the burka.

[EFerrari]

29. And the laws to "protect" women who choose not to wear the burka

are functionally unenforceable.

Please.

Have you ever worn one of these things? Why don't you try it even for a day and then get back to me.

[marshall]

30. I agree they are unwieldy, but I don't think they should be banned

But then France is going to do what they want. And they are trying to deal with the issue as best they can. I'm just glad to see some honest discussion about it.

[EFerrari]

36. Agreed. The public discussion is important. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

19. I oppose nude women and men on buses

why should I support the other extreme?

[demoleft]

37. i would not dislike nude women and men on buses if they were like that on their own will.

just a paradox. i simply do not like a law to tell me if and how much dressed i have to be in public.
that's why, apart for public offices and schools, i'd let the women choose about burka.

[AlphaCentauri]

39. I don't mind if women want to use a burqa at church

why women have to use burqa and not men?

more like the 15 hundreds when women were not allow to use pants.