Australia slam Indian paper's Ku Klux Klan cartoon

[demoleft]

Source: afp

SYDNEY (Australia) (AFP) – Australia on Friday angrily condemned an Indian newspaper cartoon likening its police to the Ku Klux Klan over their investigations into the murder of a young Indian man.

New Delhi's Mail Today ran the cartoon showing a figure with an Australian police badge wearing a pointed white hood, following the murder of 21-year-old Indian national Nitin Garg in Melbourne last weekend.

"Any suggestion of that kind is deeply, deeply offensive to the police officers involved and I would absolutely condemn the making of a comment like that," said Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard.

The murder of 21-year-old accounting graduate Garg has ignited tensions between India and Australia that have been simmering for the last 18 months following a series of attacks in Victoria state against Indians.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100108/wl_sthasia_afp/australiaindiaeducationcrime

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i would expect some more taste and measure from the press of the biggest democracy in the world.

[pampango]

1. "Another Indian student killed in Australia: Racism or hard times to blame?"-CSM

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2010/0107/Another-Indian-student-killed-in-Australia-Racism-or-hard-times-to-blame

"Nitin Garg, an accounting graduate from India studying in Australia, was stabbed to death Saturday in the latest attack on Indians. Competition with Indian migrants for jobs in poor suburbs may be behind it. A spate of assaults on Indian students raised concerns in the middle of last year. But the murder of Mr. Garg, an accounting graduate who was stabbed in a suburban Melbourne park as he walked home at night after his shift at a fast-food restaurant, has caused outrage in India, which issued a travel advisory Tuesday urging its nationals in Australia to take special precautions."

"Police say 1,447 Indians were victims of reported crime in Victoria, where Melbourne is situated, in the year ending July 2008. The Federation of Indian Students of Australia (FISA) believes the true figure is several times higher. A string of incidents mid-last year triggered angry street protests in Sydney and Melbourne. The victims included Baljinder Singh, stabbed with a screwdriver as he handed over his wallet to two assailants."

"Bob Birrell, a sociologist at Monash University in Melbourne, says the concentration of Indian students in poorer suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne is a key factor in the attacks. “These are areas where there are already social tensions, where there is competition for jobs and low-cost housing, and which get a high incidence of petty crime,” he says. Dr. Birrell denies that Australia is a racist society, pointing out that nearly one-quarter of the population was born overseas, mostly in non-English-speaking countries.

But Gautam Gupta, an FISA (Federation of Indian Students of Australia) spokesman, believes that “while it’s not a uniquely Indian problem, Indians are the newest minority in Australia, so they are on the receiving end of racism.”

[depakid]

3. A little perspective might be wise:

In 2007, according to India's National Crime Records Bureau, 32,318 people were murdered in India. Another 3644 were victims of ''culpable homicide'', roughly equating to manslaughter. In a category of its own, 8093 brides or their relatives were killed in ''dowry deaths'' - murdered by greedy grooms and in-laws angry over the amount of dowry paid by the bride's family. And there were a further 27,401 attempted murders.

By contrast, in 2007, the Australian Bureau of Statistics reports, 255 people were murdered in Australia. Another 28 were victims of manslaughter, and 246 survived attempted murders. No dowry deaths were recorded.

India, of course, is a very big country. But the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime estimates that relative to population, its homicide rate is more than twice that of Australia. It is a country in which violent crime is commonplace - so commonplace that every day more than 100 Indians are murdered by other Indians, yet their TV news channels treat this as humdrum unless it involves some celebrity or unusual features.

Sound familiar?

A bit like the American corporate media behaves?

[pampango]

4. You're not defending attacks on Indian students in Australia by claiming they come from a violent

country themselves, are you? If there were attacks on foreign students in the US, that couldn't be rationalized with the argument that the foreign students came from violent countries themselves. Foreigners (students, immigrants, tourists, etc.) don't become "fair game" if we don't like something about their home country.

Also, it's natural for media in a country to make a "big deal" if their nationals are attacked or killed in another country. When I lived in the Philippines, the media there treated crimes against Filipinos living in other countries as a "big deal" regardless of level of crimes in their own country. IMHO, their media sometimes read racism or anti-foreigner bias into some of those overseas crimes when it might have been just a random event, but unless their is a long term pattern to the crimes or an admission on behalf of authorities in the other country, it's often hard to determine from afar whether such crimes are random or part of a larger problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Sure sounds like it.

Also apparently ignoring that they're hate crimes.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Yeah, to anyone who's deaf as a post...

What depakid was pointing out and which flew over the head of the Americans here is that despite the hysteria of the Indian media, Australia's a pretty safe place, especially compared to somewhere like India. Nowhere in depakid's post did they imply at all that Indian students deserve it because they come from a violent place.

And while it's natural for any country to be concerned when one of its nationals is murdered in another country, this goes far beyond that with accusations of racism aimed at Australians, even though there's still no evidence at all that the murder in Melbourne was racially motivated, or even that the murderer/s are Australian. Just because an Indian student is murdered, that doesn't make it a hate crime...

[smitra]

13. So safe that the Govt. of the state of Victoria have supported the Indian travel advisory issued...

See here: http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jan/07/victoria-police-back-indias-travel-advisory-for-australia.htm

To quote from here: 'The Victoria Police said they supported the general statements made in the advisory that Melbourne had seen an increase in violence, that this was often "accompanied by verbal abuse, fuelled by alcohol and drugs".'

And the constant attacks over the past 18 months on Indian students (mainly, but also on people of Indian origin) are good arguments - to Indian's especially - that 'Australia is much safer than India'.

I suppose no one likes to have it pointed out to them that the place they come from, where they live, is not the best place on earth, and is like most other places on earth, 'warts and all'.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. dupe

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Of course they supported the general statements...

Why wouldn't they? I've read it and it includes general safety tips, which are very similar to those in Australian travel advisories for some cities in the US and other parts of the world. It includes things like not travelling alone at night, keeping mobile phones and ipods hidden, and other stuff that's plain common sense...


There's been no more constant attacks on Indians over the past 18 months than there have been on people who aren't Indian. And in the case of this latest murder, there's no evidence of racial motivation. Of course, if you have some evidence that no-one else knows of, feel free to share it...

Not sure how you misinterpret what I said to be me thinking my country is the best place on earth, because that's not what I think, and I'm very critical of Australia when that criticism is deserved. In this case, comparing Victorian police to the KKK is ugly and disgusting...

[smitra]

20. It was the tone of your comments that made me state what I did

Of course, it would be easy for any poster to deny, saying 'that was not my intention'. I take exception to your comment that Australia is a much safer place than India, suggesting as it does that anyone traveling to India - an Indian city - is liable to be stabbed, robbed and left for dead the moment the step out of the airport/train station/whatever.

Australia has a miniscule population compared to India, on vastly larger territory. India is home to almost every religion known to mankind, and contrary to what the Westerners would like to believe, they live largely peacefully with each other and are not at each others throats all the time. Australia, on the other hand, has had a 'Whites only' immigration policy until very recently, and now that they have changed it, they seem unable even to deal with the little bit of diversity that exists, and in the face of 'deprivation' that is nothing compared to the deprivation that Indians have suffered over the centuries.

I will conclude this by stating that I - respectfully - disagree that these attacks on Indian students in Australia are just 'ordinary' crimes and not motivated by racial hatred. I have read too many news reports and editorials over the past year and a half to believe that.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Huh? I didn't suggest anything of the sort!

I didn't suggest that anyone travelling to India is liable to be stabbed, etc.

Yeah, all that stuff about Hindu extremists and the absolutely crap way women are treated in India is just the Western media making shit up, right? Bullshit...

But this isn't about nasty aspects of Indian society, this is about hysterical, ugly and dishonest crap being put out by the Indian media. And I see that you are adding to it with that totally incorrect line about only having a little bit of diversity here in Australia and the White Australia policy being something that was in existance till very recently. The White Australia Policy was finally totally dismantled decades ago, and Australia is one of the most multicultural societies in the world, coming only second or third to Canada and Israel. It's not a racism-free place, as can be seen by the Cronulla riots, the way that Pauline Hanson was embraced by a portion of the population, and some attacks which have been racially motivated, but to claim that Australia is some racist place where the cops are like the KKK is ludicrous.

How is the murder of the student in Melbourne not an 'ordinary' crime? I've asked you before to supply any evidence you have that it was racially motivated and you didn't. You do realise he was walking at night through a park with no lighting in a really bad part of Melbourne? And that so far they haven't found who did it? So how on earth does that become a racial hatred thing in yr mind? Do you really think that only Indian students are murdered walking through dark parks late at night in bad bits of town?

[smitra]

24. And your reaction is as expected!!!!

And I will take your "Bullshit" comment and raise you two! Sure, you have read and ingrained within yourself the 'crap' that Western (including Australian) media have put out about Hindu extremists and the 'absolute crap way women are treated in India...'. Not that the country (again, I will REITERATE that it is a country with 1.l billion people in a land area significantly smaller than Australia) could not, as a whole, improve its record in this area. But the way you present it as a near-universal truth indicates that you believe in the inherent superiority of your 'Occidental' culture and have a contemptuous attitude towards a culture that is significantly different from your own.

And as for the women issue.... has Australia (which supposedly treats women with perfect equality) ever had a woman prime minister? Are you aware of how many women have risen to positions of power in India, with women holding positions as chief ministers of states (including a so-called 'untouchable' woman holding the office of chief minister in one of the country's largest states), judges, executives, etc.? Ever thought of doing a bit of independent research?

And as for Australia being one of the most multi-cultural societies in the world..don't make me laugh! According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia), "Most of the estimated 22 million Australians are descended from colonial-era settlers and post-Federation immigrants from Europe, with almost 90% of the population being of European descent. For generations, the vast majority of both colonial-era settlers and post-Federation immigrants came almost exclusively from the British Isles, and the people of Australia are still mainly of British or Irish ethnic origin."
The same article states with regard to the indigenous population of Australia..."Indigenous Australians experience higher than average rates of imprisonment and unemployment, lower levels of education, and life expectancies for males and females that are 11–17 years lower than those of non-indigenous Australians. Some remote Indigenous communities have been described as having "failed state"-like conditions."

As for the country's attitude to the foreign born, it should be noted that in this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_Policy) it states that as late as 2007, "...2007 also saw the Howard Government halt applications from refugees if they were from Africa."

A country that treats its own indigenous people in this manner... is it surprising to think that the attacks on Indian students are not racially motivated? Go to Wikipedia, which has a whole section on attacks on Indian students in Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_attacks_on_Indians_in_Australia). The comment that racism was an issue in these attacks is not just a hysterical Indian media reaction (as you are so prone to claiming) comes from an Australian researcher - see here: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/tackle-racism-or-attacks-will-go-on-researcher/story-0-1225732674960. To quote from here: "...A CRACKDOWN on law and order won't stop attacks against international students unless the authorities admit racism is at work and implement measures to tackle it, a multicultural researcher has warned.

Victoria University's Hurriyet Babacan, who is leading a fast-tracked research project into violence against Indian students, said there was evidence of a "new" racism in Australia against groups seen as not fitting in." NUMEROUS INDIAN STUDENT GROUPS HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT POLICE INDIFFERENCE ... again, do your RESEARCH... and look in your own media.

There are none so blind as those who will not see!

[depakid]

25. You certainly seem to have a bee in your bonnet

ayour rants on the issue are getting a bit hysterical, suggesting some sort of agenda (as well as an outright lack of any first hand knowledge of the country or its people).

Might want to turn of that Indian TV and be a bit more discerning about what you read in the media.

[smitra]

26. Point out the TRUTH quoting FACTS and you are called names...

Btw, I live in the USA, in upstate New York, and I do not have Indian TV. Don't make comments about what you don't know.

I pointed out the FACTS in my post, quoting recognized and credible sources, including Australian. I note that NONE of you have done this, nor have you addressed the issues I have raised.

As for 'outright lack of any first-hand knowledge' -- yes, I have never been to Australia. But given the comments some of you have made about India, leveling this charge is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

And yes, I certainly have a 'bee in my bonnet', and proud of it. Just as Mahatma Gandhi had a 'bee in his bonnet' about exposing the exploitative and unjust nature of British rule in India. Several others had such bees in their bonnets too (Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, ...).

[depakid]

28. No denying you're on wiki hunt! LOL

and have some sort of bee in your bonnet about Australia- a country that it's clear you know nothing at all about!

My comments- along with the OP are meant not only as a pot kettle back deal (a pretty impressive one, all things considered) but also to point out how overblown the matter is- the comparison to white blond girls being quite apposite.

Moreover- the fact is that the reactionary elements and factors behind the latest outcry aren't likely to improve the situation for anyone.

I also alluded to what might be called a commonwealth nation squabble- based on the fact that we hear nary a peep from the Indian media about things like this when they happen in the states. Which they do with considerable frequency. We can speculate about why that might be- but I can guarantee, having been in your neck of the woods- and lived in several regions of the United States, racism is far worse (though more generic- most American racists don't "discriminate" all that well among "brown people" in general or among and between South Asians, Pakistani's, Arabs or Persians).

Even in Oregon and California I've seen it, Talk with an Indian grad student sometime and ask them about it. I have.

One might also note the paucity of complaints in the Indian media about the treatment of Indians (and people of Indian ancestry in Malaysia- or worse- in Dubai. Those don't matter so much I guess- probably because "those people" are low caste.

[smitra]

32. Tsk Tsk Tsk...

Sure, being concerned about murders of two hardworking students - with one of them having his body burnt - is an 'over-reaction'! Certain in the missing white blond girl (read Natalie Holloway) category.

You repeat that I know nothing about Australia. I have already stated I have not been there. I have read a LOT, and I make my judgments based on detailed reading and research. Not based on a one-time experience, with which you are so quick to condemn America!

You say: "Talk with an Indian grad student sometime" in the US. Let me tell you that I WAS one of them, starting 21 years ago (I got my PhD). And I teach at an American university and now, I talk to them ALL THE TIME. And your comment makes it clear you know nothing about America - even though you may have spent time here. My own experience, teaching white Americans in my neck of the woods, and those of my international students, comes nowhere near what is happening in Australia. Not to say that racism is absent in America. But the Indian student experience is nothing like what is happening currently in Australia.

Commonwealth nation squabble? Ha! India does not recognize Queen Elizabeth II as head of state, and most people are not even aware of the fact that they are in the Commonwealth.

Like many westerners, you assume that anyone of Indian origin posting on any such forum must be of 'high caste' and does not care about the 'low castes'. You could not be more wrong, again. Shows your biases!

[depakid]

33. You're showing your ethnicentricism again

Nations that are or were part of the commonwealth have all sorts of current and historical ties quite unrelated to "the queen" that Americans wouldn't likely be familair with. Sporting being one which I previously referred to.

So if it's not a caste deal- what is it? Why are Indian citizens kept as virtual slaves in Dubai and treated as second class people in Malaysia (among other things- being denied access to Uni) without much of a peep from the media? Where's the outrage?

Nope- there's there's the blond white girl dynamic going on here- where if you causally watched US TV, you'd think those were the only people going missing! Since you haven't lived- nor even visited both places, you're stuck reading accounts that are subject to that dynamic- so of course that's how you're going to think. Whether there's any basis for it or not.

[smitra]

34. No, I am not. YOU are seemingly unable to see the real issues..

First, I will take a leaf out of your book, and mention this:

1. My cousin, and a good friend (both of Indian origin) live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and live very well. They are not Malaysian citizens. They see many Malaysians of Indian origin around them who live decently enough -- with Muslim Malaysians visiting them on Diwali and joining in the festivities.

2. My friend's sister and her family live in Dubai, are professionals, and live very well.

So, using the basis you used to judge America's treatment of her international students, should I say that life is a paradise for Indians in these places, and you are talking crap? No.

At this point in time, though, Indians in Malaysia are not participating in the kinds of protests mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_attacks_on_Indian_students_in_Australia

As for Dubai... there are plenty of Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Filipino, etc. workers who are exploited there. And there has been plenty of discussion about it in many places, none of which seems to have come to your attention. Nor are you aware of measures taken to reduce such abuses.

But all this apart... as one poster up-thread mentioned... because things may be bad for Indians/other foreigners in Malaysia, Dubai, or wherever... it is OK for them to be attacked and killed in Australia? It is OK for them to be victims of 'curry bashing' in Australia? Any protest about the issues involved here... including pointing out police indifference... amounts to an 'over-reaction'? Give me a break!

As for the Commonwealth, I will repeat, it hardly looms large in the average Indian's consciousness. Yes, there are the cricket matches, and of late, even non-Commonwealth countries are participating.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Yeah, I usually respond that way to complete nonsense...

I have to wonder how it is that yr so violently intolerant of any criticism of any nasty things about India (like Hindu extremism, the mistreatment of women etc), yet then turn around and fling nasty generalisations about Australia. Don't you see how hypocritical that is?

As for the women issue....are you not aware of the terrible way widows are treated there? Yeah, it's fine if the woman is from a wealthy family, but most women aren't that lucky. Then there's also that dowry thing. The treatment of women isn't something that can be fobbed off by saying India could improve its record in that area. So could Saudi Arabia, but that's not going to stop me from being critical of any country where women are treated badly...

http://www.thp.org/where_we_work/south_asia/india/research_reports/chronic_hunger_and_status_of_women

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1795564.stm

What yr trying to argue about multiculturalism is very incomplete. It's like what you read cut off while the White Australia Policy was still around. Oh, wait. I just clicked on the link, and it's you that cut it off and ommitted the information. From the link you posted: 'Following the abolition of the White Australia policy in 1973, numerous government initiatives have been established to encourage and promote racial harmony based on a policy of multiculturalism.<91> In 2005–06, more than 131,000 people emigrated to Australia, mainly from Asia and Oceania.<92> The migration target for 2006–07 was 144,000.<93> The total immigration quota for 2008–09 is around 300,000—its highest level since the Immigration Department was created after World War II.<94><95>'

As for indigenous Australians, they've been victims of genocide and there's a long way to go to make amends. Things you haven't heard of or care not to bother mentioning is that there's a widespread recognition now of the traditional owners of the land, some has been handed back (eg Uluru), and there's been an official apology by the Rudd government. But to try to equate international students to indigenous Australians is just ridiculous. You've been asked more than once to provide any evidence that the murder in Melbourne that kicked all this off was racially motivated and you've ignored the question I asked you each time...

Um, you do realise that in at least one case of supposed racist violence against Indian students, it was other international students that were responsible? The problem with those student groups is that they're running round blaming everything on racism, not being rational at all, and abusing those who try to help them. And the worst thing is that their behaviour brings out the real racists both amongst Indians and Australians. Those people exist and if the news.com.au comment section is something to go by, they're getting their hate on courtesy of those who are probably well-intentioned but have a trigger finger and blame everything on racism.

btw, were you aware that the Indian government has retreated from its earlier claim that the murder was racially motivated?

[depakid]

29. It might also bear mentioning that Julia Gillard is currently the acting Prime Minister

as Kev's off on holiday!

:D

[smitra]

31. Not the same as being a woman, and a prime minister for 16 years. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

37. I'm pretty sure Julia's a woman n/t

[smitra]

39. Huh? Missed the point, did you?

An acting PM for a few days is different from a full-fledged PM for 16 years, which is what Ms. Indira Gandhi was.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. No, but you seem to. I was just pointing out that Julia is a woman...

Yr post sounded like you were saying she wasn't one...

btw, for someone who trivialised the abuse of Indian women the way you did, don't try playing some idiotic gender wars thing now...

[smitra]

43. No, I did not.

It is too bad that you could not comprehend that short sentence.

And don't attribute to me what I did not do - trivialize the plight of Indian women. I gave you two examples of very successful women, one of humble birth. To any rational mind, that's not 'trivializing'.

You were the one who started - to use your own term - 'the idiotic gender wars'.

As you are clearly biased, and will not see the truth even when presented with facts, you can have the last word.

Goodbye!

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Sorry, but it is trivialising...

To fob off the very real abuse of women by pointing to two who've done well is like pointing to a few successful Aboriginals in order to downplay discrimination against indigenous Australians...

Sorry that I'm not staggering under the weight of the cyber-bludgeoning with wiki links you've been doing, but I think you've failed to notice a few things, and that's got to do with you sitting halfway round the world and not really having a clue what's going on. The facts are that while there are some racially motivated attacks on minorities here, it's not specific to Indians and many crimes involving Indians aren't racially motivated. You didn't show any interest in discussing areas where safety for international students could be improved, and are more interested in defending the Indian media and that ugly KKK cartoon. You've got it set in yr head that it's all about racism and nothing's going to sway you.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Yeah, and also that our head of state is a woman n/t

[smitra]

30. Pot calling the kettle black, again!

You accuse me of being 'hypocritical' when I present articles that criticize Australia, but when you do the same about India, quoting a few web sites (yes, like I did), that is OK? I have already admitted that India has a long way to go towards equal rights for women, but it is NOT just wealthy women in India who have it good. Vast numbers of women from the middle classes and lower have done well and improved their lots in lives. Are you aware of how many state govts. now provide free education for girls? Are you aware that Indira Gandhi, one of the most powerful prime ministers the country ever had, was a widow when she came to power? Are you aware that Maywati, the so-called 'untouchable' chief minister of Uttar Pradesh state was born to a man who worked as a clerk in a govt. telecom dept.? I will stand by my comment that you have done little research, and none of any significance, with regard to this. Yet, you state these points as universal truths.

Criticism based on half-baked knowledge can be OK, esp. in a forum like this. In your case, when this same kind of criticism is directed back at your country, pointing out an inescapable truth about a series of attacks on members of a certain community, you can't stand it. Who's being hypocritical?

You have quoted Australian govt. immigration statistics from Wikipedia. But the fact remains that despite the govt. trying to do this, Australia remains 90% white (European). Are you denying that, even though it is mentioned in Wikipedia? Has this increased immigration simply resulted in an increase of 'Curry bashing', which thanks to an honorable Australian judge, at least received a jail sentence (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/curry-bashing-fetches-15-years/story-0-1225756096289)?

The recent murder of Nitin Garg (whose name I note you never mention in your posts despite the thrust of almost all of your arguments being based on this one murder not being a racist incident) is not the issue here. The issue is whether these attacks that have been going on for a long time are not based on race. And you seem unable to appreciate, despite all the evidence, that there IS a racism component. As admitted by Australian academics themselves. You want to say that it is simply a creation of the Indian media. The fact that this article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_attacks_on_Indian_students_in_Australia - has a picture of Indian students protesting in Melbourne blocking a couple of streets on May 31, 2009 - this is just due to hysterical reporting in the Indian media, right? The fact that this article also states these facts:

"The People's Republic of China has also expressed concern over student safety in Australia. According to official figures, more than 130,000 Chinese students are currently studying in Australia.

New Zealand has responded to these attacks and subsequent incidents. The education sector in New Zealand has moved to distance itself from attacks on Indian students, saying they were "totally different societies". The Chief Executive of the New Zealand Education Trust, Robert Stevens, has stressed to prospective students from India that New Zealand "is a different country from Australia - in the nicest possible way", and is striving to market New Zealand to Indians in this manner. Education authorities in New Zealand are hoping recent attacks on Indian students in Australia will make New Zealand a more attractive option.

British Indian media analyst Farrukh Dhondy has severely criticised the Australian government for denying that serious problems exist in Australia with regard to race relations, and point to similar incidents of racial violence against British Pakistanis in earlier years that was handled better in Britain by authorities, leading to a reduction in racial violence."

Once again, I will reiterate - "There are none so blind as those who will not see!"

[Violet_Crumble]

36. No, unlike yr intolerance of any criticism about India, I'[ve criticised Australia...

I see a huge difference between our attitudes...

You still haven't pointed to a shred of evidence that the murder in Melbourne was racially motivated. Why is it that you seem to think it's not possible for an Indian to be a victim of an opportunistic crime? Why do you think they're so much different than anyone else? I've got no doubt that there might be a few racially motivated crimes listed on that wikipedia page, but to sit there and insist that all of them are, when a reading of the page has the victims in some cases saying the crimes were opportunistic and not racist, it does come across like yr getting yrself so worked up that no amount of logic or reasoning will appeal to you.

Yeah, actually the recent murder in Melbourn is the issue here. That cartoon in the OP that you appear to be defending is aimed at the Victorian police who are investigating that murder. The recent murder is why I read a deluge of racist crap aimed at Australians on Indian media websites.

Here's a question for you. What more do you think the Australian government needs to do when it comes to student safety?

[smitra]

38. Let me point out one more incident to you, which HAPPENED TODAY... a few hours ago...

An Indian man was set on fire today in Melbourne, Australia, in the early hours of the morning.

See: http://www.smh.com.au/national/indian-man-set-on-fire-in-melbourne-attack-20100109-lzq2.html

According to this news report - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/indian-mans-burning-in-melbourne-not-racially-motivated-victorian-police/story-fn3dxiwe-1225817636643 - within a few hours, the police say the attack is 'unusual', but deny it is racially motivated.

Facts: There is no evidence of robbery. There is no evidence that the attackers wanted to steal his car. They just set him, and his car, on fire.

So what is the motive? Just a random attack? You want me to believe that a first-world country, with a per capita income of $ 36,000 has such a system that within a space of 10 DAYS there are THREE incidents of attacks against a particular community and these are just 'random', and 'no big deal'? Are you going to say why Mr. Singh returned home as late as 2 am from a dinner party? What should have been his curfew time - 10 pm? Despite the fact that he is a 29-year old man?

Why did these attackers set Mr. Singh on fire? Were they just randomly moving around the neighborhood, looking for someone - anyone, irrespective of race - to set on fire? Is that logical?

I suppose you could come up with rationalizations - 'it was too late', 'that neighborhood is unsafe and he should have known it', etc. Blame the victim. Would not explain why he was not robbed, but set on fire, with the obvious intention of taking his life.

Still not racism?

The police say so, it must be true!

Another poster on this thread quoted a statistic that Australia has 1 murder for every 100,000 people. Given that there are 100,000 Indian students in the country, one of them getting murdered a year should be statistically consistent. Well, there have now been two and one attempted - will be three if this gentleman - Mr. Singh - does not make it - in 10 DAYS.

Do you get the picture? The answer to the question - what more should the govt. do? - is obvious. Listen to what your own academics are saying.

And spare me the fig leaf that you have criticized Australia, but I cannot stomach criticism of India. You are so sensitive that further down thread, you have to play the game of 'one-up-man-ship' and mention that Australia's current head of state is a woman, as well as the acting PM. Well, FYI, the current head of state of India is also a woman. Pratibha Patil, took office in 2007. Admit it - did you know that?

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Can you please try addressing the question I asked you...

Here it is again: What more do you think the Australian government needs to do when it comes to student safety?

I would really like an answer to that one. Surely you must have given it some consideration. I'm not interested in you pointing out links to things on Wikipedia. I want to know yr thoughts on it, because I'm starting to suspect you haven't even thought about it...


I notice that the police are saying that the very recent attack doesn't appear to be racially motivated. Unlike you, who's already decided from halfway round the world that it is, they've got access to evidence and witnesses. If it does turn out to be racially motivated, they'll say so. If it turns out to be an insurance scam gone wrong, they'll also say so...

Huh? It's a fact that I've been very vocal in criticising Australia. You, on the other hand, couldn't even tolerate criticism when it comes to mistreatment of women in India...

[smitra]

42. Don't attribute activities to me you know nothing about...

I have been very vocal in many forums in discussing the plight of women and other underprivileged people in India. It is your 'superior, how-dare-you-criticize-me-when-your-own-country-is-so-screwed-up' attitude that provoked my comments.

And yes, I have thought about what the Australian govt. should do. The police is an arm of the govt., you admit that? I will ignore the Indian media that you seem to be so biased against, for now, and present you an article from your own country's newspaper, 'The Age', archived here:

"INCREASING attacks on Indian students catching late-night trains home to St Albans have forced them to organise their own protection.

Every night this week students and workers are gathering at the western suburbs station to provide safe passage for Indian commuters.

Their action is in response to racist taunts and abuse on trains, and bashings while making their way home.

Among a crowd of 100 to 150 mostly Indian men outside the station this week, Gary Singh said the community had no option after incidents of intimidation in which TRAIN INSPECTORS FAILED TO INTERVENE AND POLICE FAILED TO RESPOND TO CALLS FOR HELP" (capitals mine).

Better policing? A more sensitive police force?

It seems to be an article of faith with you that the Australian police cannot be accused of indifference when it comes to protecting members of a community who have been targeted for 18 months. That perception is not shared by the victims, and the members of the victim's community, wherever they may be in the world. You are not qualified to be a judge of what they should feel. Maybe the KKK cartoon was in bad taste. But it should serve as a wake-up call to you to let you know what the other side is thinking.

And as for this biased and sensationalistic Indian media you and your compatriot on this thread seem to be convinced about, take a look at this article in the Times of India: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Racial-attacks-Indians-hold-rally-in-Australia/articleshow/4599752.cms. It clearly presents the view that not all these attacks are hate crimes. But note the article is from 7 months ago. You think the persistence of these attacks - and possible police inaction - may have changed this view? Are you going to blame them for it?

Lets wait a few weeks and see how eagerly the Australian authorities handle the investigation into these three recent attacks.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. I wouldn't dream of doing something you've got the market cornered on...

I find the very flippant way you blew off the very real issues of abuse of women in India to be a bit disturbing. Yet again, yr misrepresenting something I said, and I'm either putting it down to not giving a stuff what people say and creating a preferable version for yrself, or just not being good at the whole communicating thing. I didn't anywhere make out or say how dare you criticise me when yr country is so screwed up. Here's what I actually said: 'What depakid was pointing out and which flew over the head of the Americans here is that despite the hysteria of the Indian media, Australia's a pretty safe place, especially compared to somewhere like India.' Please stop accusing me of stances I don't hold and saying things I haven't said.

Sure, there definately needs to be more policing on trains, and that applies to all major cities. But it's ignorance of this country that leads you to believe that violence on suburban trains is something that's aimed only at Indians. It's doubtful you'll care about this one seeing the victim isn't Indian, but there's a kid on life support because he was bashed and left for dead on a train between Sydney and the Central Coast. This happened only very recently, and there's a universal problem with safety on trains.

You still haven't provided a single shred of evidence that the murder in Melbourne was racially motivated and even less to back up any claim that the police aren't investigating it properly. I'll take it that you don't have anything other than a lot of knee-jerking and a strong dislike of Australia to run with.

What are you talking about that my views aren't shared by the victims? You posted a link to something where some of the victims said what happened to them wasn't racially motivated.

Do you agree that there should be a focus on educating international students about safety issues? Things that for locals are commonsense, like not travelling alone at night, avoiding public transport in some areas, not carrying valuables, not walking through parks in the dark? See, that's what marks the difference between something like the Cronulla riots, which were clearly racially motivated, and the murder of a man walking alone through a dark park in a bad area at night, which looks like it could have been a crime of opportunism. With Cronulla, people expect to be able to visit a beach during the day without someone screamind 'bash the Lebs!' and beating them up. With the recent murder, there's just too much of the being in the wrong place at the wrong time thing to it. Employers like Hungry Jacks and Maccas need to be more aware of how their staff are getting to and from work and try to roster them on so they aren't risking their lives going to and from work...


The KKK cartoon is maybe in bad taste and it's our fault that it was printed? That's one seriously fucked up mindset happening there...

[smitra]

50. Look who's talking....

>I find the very flippant way you blew off the very real issues of abuse of women in India to
>be a bit disturbing.

I guess your reading comprehension skills need sharpening... the fact that I clearly stated that India could do with a lot of improvement in this area completely went over your head. The two examples stating that the lot of many Indian women has improved over the years is just too much for you to understand, huh? Or that it flies against your pre-conceived biases too much to make any headway into your brain?

> "...Australia's a pretty safe place, especially compared to somewhere like India."
> "...but there's a kid on life support because he was bashed and left for dead on a train
>between Sydney and the Central Coast."

Happened last week, did it? Just proves the point I was first making. Your phrase "...especially compared to somewhere like India" is the issue here. And my disagreement with this claim.

>What are you talking about that my views aren't shared by the victims? You posted a link
>to something where some of the victims said what happened to them wasn't racially
>motivated.

Again, reading challenged. Read what I said above ... I pointed out that the Indian media, that you are so fond of castigating, was the one that was saying seven months ago that these attacks may not be racially motivated and one has to give the Australian authorities a chance. But their continued prevalence, and police indifference, gives rise to feelings that result in that cartoon, which may be in bad taste, but illustrates what the 'other side' is feeling, which you don't want to see.

Two posts down-thread mention the Australian indigenous people and raise the issue as to whether the gentleman set on fire yesterday was robbed or not -- and if not robbed, this strongly indicates a racist attack. Not a fact that seems to get into your brain.

No point in talking to someone who harps on the single fact that Melbourne murder of Nitin Garg may not have been racially motivated and don't accuse the police of racism about it, while ignoring the mountains of evidence presented - even from Australian sources - that racism could be a significant factor behind these attacks by dismissing these as 'don't bury me under Wiki links' (links sent to the Australian media not come to your notice, huh??).

I am sure there will be a reply to this, and I will let you have the last word.

Goodbye, and protect yourself well if you take an Australian train or go out of your home after dark!

[smitra]

14. Dupe...delete...posting error n/t

[depakid]

15. The point is that the Indian media is behaving like the American media

does when a blond girl goes missing or is killed, going over the top- and creating a sensationalist fervor.

In this case trumping up the racism angle, when the only evidence happens to a guy attacked at night in a nasty area. What's even more interesting is that the media doesn't get riled up like this over much more frequent crimes against Indians in the states- nor does it tout the racist angle which is far more prevalent in America than it is here in Australia.

Curious as to why that might be.

Something else Americans might not be aware of is that Indian society has its own elements of racism- particularly among the upper classes. This really came to light in the media a couple of years back with the treatment of an Australian cricket player of West Indian descent, Andrew Symonds who was derided with racial slurs and gestures by opposing players (and fans),

The "monkey theme" -like the KKK bit, was also of American origin.

[daleo]

19. So, about 1 chance in 100,00 of being a murder victim in any given year

225 murders in a population of about 20 million.

The fact that the violent crime rate is so low only emphasizes the apparent targeting of Indian students.

On edit - I note the article said that there were about 100,000 Indian students in Australia, so a murder might be exected, based on statisical reasoning.

[CBGLuthier]

2. America RULES

Our hatred is the most iconic in the world. India, which suffered 150 years of colonial rule uner the BRITISH still goes to america for hate imagery.

USA USA USA

[Chemical Bill]

5. LOL

:rofl:

[JI7]

9. "David Palmer, the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan in Australia, "

http://www.smh.com.au/national/we-have-infiltrated-party-kkk-20090709-der4.html

Ku Klux Klan sets up Australian branch

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/358783.stm

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. lol

[No Elephants]

47. India? It was one cartoonist. And we don't have any corner on racism,

especially vis a vis the "British Empire. Yeah, American racism stank and still does. But so did/does the Briish Empire's, including Australia's, including against aborigines.

One cartoon in one foreign newspaper and the acting PM condemns it publicly? Can you imagine if American politicians did anything like that? If they were that intolerant of what gets printed in the press, either at home or abroad?

[DeeOwl]

6. Hahaha....

That is just frigging hilarious! Australians fighting with the Indians over accusations of racism and bigotry? Hah! If there were ever two nations on the planet with ever-growing ultra-nationalist tendencies, thickening layer of racial and cultural supremacists climbing to power, and outright moves towards fascist-like societies then those two nations are it.

Australia? Didn't one of the their own famous politicians say something along the lines of (paraphrasing here) "Scratch the skin of an Australian and you will find a bigot underneath"...?? As for India? You got the BJP aka Bharatiya Janata Party which is trying to emulate the NAZI party in more ways than one.

nuff said...

[Bustercat]

7. Great post.

And am I missing something, but is India totally overreacting to this? Do they even know why he was stabbed (hate crime vs robbery?)

Reminds me of the madness over the Shulpa Shetty thing on Big Brother, or the aftermath of a pseudo-pogrom against Tibetan exiles in northern india I saw first hand, a week after an automobile accident in which a Tibetan struck and killed an Indian.

[smitra]

8. Just like the Republican party in the US emulates the Nazi party? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Australia has an ultra-nationalist and fascist-like society??

Yeah, it's that current left-wing Labor government that's really big on all the fascism and ultra-nationalism. Can I suggest you actually educate yrself about countries other than the US before coming out with complete crap about them?

[redqueen]

18. "outright moves towards"

Seems not too far off base to me.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Yeah, coz our Labor govt is so fascist and ultra-nationalistic...

What outright moves are talking about?

[pampango]

46. "Indian man attacked and set alight in Melbourne"-BBC. Another attack in Melbourne.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8449731.stm

"An Indian man is in a serious condition in a Melbourne hospital after being attacked and set alight by a gang. The 29-year-old man attacked on Saturday was returning home from a dinner party with his wife when he was set upon."

"It comes a week after an Indian graduate student was stabbed to death in the city, prompting a travel advisory from the Indian government. The Indian community in Melbourne has said it believes racist attacks are on the rise in the city."

"Melbourne police said the latest attack appeared to be random and there was no evidence it was racially motivated. Det Sgt Neil Smyth said the attack had been "an unusual event" but that it appeared to have been carried out at random. "There is no reason at this stage to consider this in any way racially motivated," he told reporters."

"Peter Batchelor, a minister for Victoria, said that whether the crime was motivated by racism or theft, it was damaging to Melbourne society."
-------------------------------------------------------
This doesn't appear to be an attack on a student, since the victim is married and leaving a dinner party. He could be a student, but the story doesn't say so.

I wonder if theft has been a factor in this and previous attacks. If so, the likelihood that the attacks are opportunistic and not racially motivated is higher. If theft has not occurred, then other motivations would become more likely.

In this case, pouring fluid on the victim and setting him on fire, doesn't sound like a typical mugging in which the attacker is out for the money and to escape as quickly as possible. The story doesn't mention whether the victim was robbed or not here.

[No Elephants]

48. Jaysus. One cartoon. Wonder how DPM Gillard would cope with being an American poitician.

[fedsron2us]

49. Cartoon might have had more point if it related to the number of Australian aborigines

who die in police custody but then no one cares about them in Australia, India or anywhere else.

[Exultant Democracy]

51. I would expect that someone from the oldest democracy would value the freedom of speech over taste