Reid apologizes for 'no Negro dialect' comment

[underpants]

Source: Yahoo

WASHINGTON – The top Democrat in the U.S. Senate apologized on Saturday for comments he made about Barack Obama's race during the 2008 presidential bid and are quoted in a yet-to-be-released book about the campaign.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada described in private then-Sen. Barack Obama as "light skinned" and "with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one." Obama is the nation's first African-American president.

"I deeply regret using such a poor choice of words. I sincerely apologize for offending any and all Americans, especially African-Americans for my improper comments," Reid said in a statement released after the excerpts were first reported on the Web site of The Atlantic.

"I was a proud and enthusiastic supporter of Barack Obama during the campaign and have worked as hard as I can to advance President Obama's legislative agenda."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100109/ap_on_el_se/us_obama_reid

[Politicub]

1. Ugh - I can hardly believe he used the word "negro"

I'm glad Reid apologized, but it's shameful that he said what he did in the first place.

[napi21]

8. The word negro was the correct word when Harry was young.

It was when I was young too! I don't know for sure how old Harry is, but I'm 66 and I never heard "African American" when I was young. The derogatory term was ni.... but as far as I know the correct name was negro. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why so many are having a difficult time dealing with it now.

[CynicalObserver]

13. The thought police have been after use of this word in almost any context now for a while against

republicans, and it is somewhat amusing to see the different reactions when the veil falls and the same speech=police bludgeon strikes a 'friendly' target.


the 'was in use when he was young' excuse clearly would allow him to suggest blacks be in separate rooms from him, if he went to a segregated school (the year fits, no idea where he was though. Bottom line, politicians know the speech police will crucify them for using a word relating to race, and they exercise their first amendment rights at their peril.

[Politicub]

20. Unlike repugs, we dems hold people to a higher standard

Thought police, indeed.

Republicans have no decency or sense of decorum at all, it seems. So they relish anything that somehow validates their own teabagger fueled racism.

[Psephos]

115. The irony of your comment is delicious. n/t

[rayofreason]

124. I almost missed it! Amazing! Mirror anyone? n/t

[No Elephants]

125. People who are sensitive to insults against Republicans may want to re-think posting here.

Just as I have no desire to post (or read) at Free Republic.

[Clovis Sangrail]

202. has nothing to do with republicans

has to do with consistency

[Psephos]

209. That's my position as well. n/t

[No Elephants]

132. You may think the poster's premise is wrong, but the post is not ironic.

The poster's point is that Republicans hold Democrats to a higher standard when it comes to racism, e.g., seizing upon a comment made by Reid that may not have been the most "p.c." while they engage in racial discrimination. That may or may not comport with your views, but it is not "delicious irony."

Yes, the poster used language derogatory to Republicans, but perhaps racists merit derogatory language.

Disliking Republicans for their racism is not really comparable to being racist. If the poster had been chastising Republicans for using language derogatory of Democrats, the post would have been ironic. Or, if the poster had made a racist remark while condemning Republicans for their racism, that would have been ironic, although "delicious would not have occurred to me. However, there is no irony in posting that blankety blank Republicans (whom the poster believes actually engage in racist conduct), hold Democrats to higher standard when they are silent about their own, yet criticize a Democrat for making a remark.

Again, you may find the beliefs of the poster wrong, but that is different from finding them ironic.

[Politicub]

165. Thank you for your post

I hold racism or the appearance of racism in contempt, and no one, especially me, is perfect in their choice of words all of the time. And, I was getting heated about the parsing of the word in question and the attempt to define when it is acceptable or not. Why just not err on the side of not using it?

The defense of republicans on DU gets old, since they have enough folks defending them.

[No Elephants]

185. De nada. IMO, your meaning was quite apparent.

[Clovis Sangrail]

172. it *was ironic - as is your defense of it

true one is racism and one is not, but seeing the similarity really depends on if you focus on the use of stereotypes in general or racism (a stereotype focused on race)

Using that perspective your defense of it is also highly entertaining.

[Politicub]

173. I'm still working on improving myself... it seems you have already reached perfection

and enlightenment. Congratulations.

:eyes:

[Clovis Sangrail]

179. why thank you

from your post at #20 I can tell you think some people are just *better than others
(or at least that you think that some people are just *worse than others)

[No Elephants]

195. Aren't some people worse than others? Or, at least, isn't the behavior of some people worse

than the behavior of others.

Jeffrey Dahmer vs. Mother Teresa? Then again, I heard that she could pushy in pursuit of her goals. And she doubted the divinity of Christ most of the time. So, maybe some would say she was a hypocrite, what with being a bride of Christ and all.

Let's see. Pushy hypocrite v. serial killer/cannibal.

I think she still comes out ahead.

[Clovis Sangrail]

201. I guess I should have specified 'groups of people'

I think we all (the US populace) share enough morality that almost everybody would agree mother Theresa is a "better person" than Jeffrey Dahmer.


But is it OK to assign worth to entire groups of people?
-which is what I was commenting on

Are *all democrats better than *all republicans?
John Wayne Gacy was a democrat... does that mean all republicans are worse than Gacy?

[No Elephants]

205. Depends on your meaning. If I did not think that Democrats in general

were better in general than Republicans in general, I would be a Republican. Wouldn't you?

Do I think every Democrat is better in every way than every Republican, though? No. Maybe some Republican in New Jersey gives more to charity than I do or is a better mom. But I don't think that is what Politicub meant, either. As I stated in another post to you, I don't even think Politicub meant that every single Republican is a bigot while every single Democrat is not. I think the main thrust of the post was that Republicans tend to be silent when other Republicans exhibit bigotry, but hold Democrats to a higher standard than they hold fellow Republicans.

Do I think Repubican bigotry is exposed more often than Democratic bigotry? Yes. Do I think Republicans (after Lincoln) were traditionally known as the Party of rich white men? Yes. Do I think that Democratstended to embrace diversity more than did Republicans? Yes (the exception being Southern Democrats, who now tend to be Republicans, anyway).

So, yes, I guess I do think that some groups of people are better than others. For example, in addition to thinking that Democrats in general are better than Republicans in general, I don't think much of the KKK or of Al Qaida, either, while I tend to give props to members of the ACLU. Do some of the latter beat their wives? Maybe, but that is beside the point of what the group's mission and reputation are.

But, as I posted to someone else, if insulting Republicans in general troubles you, DU may not be your optimal message board home.

[Clovis Sangrail]

210. lesser of 2 evils is OK?

If the Democratic party suddenly changed their platform to something worse than the Republican party and the Republican party stayed as is - you'd become Republican?
I'm pretty sure I would still find the Rebuplican party just as unacceptable as I do now.

If I had found myself making a statement such as you just did I think it would be cause for some serious introspection about my beliefs ... though based on your falling back to the stance that I'm just defending Republicans I somehow think that won't be the case for you.

[CynicalObserver]

217. While it is true that republicans are routinely demonized here

I will refer to your statement "But, as I posted to someone else, if insulting Republicans in general troubles you, DU may not be your optimal message board home."

it is important to remember that these same republicans (and the equally large group of independents who either don't know enough to choose a party or don't like either choice) are your neighbors and mostly likely some of your own family. They are the people whose kids your kids (if any) go to school with, they cook your food in restaurants, and do the 100 other things you have to interact with people for on a daily basis. You might even be married to one (it happens, there are people for whom love and family trump politics).

I see republicans demonized more here than the radical muslims who actively seek to cause total chaos and harm to both democrats and republicans. Is the guy who failed to blow up that plane 2 weeks ago really better than some republican politician from wherever? While some posters here actively support such terrorists openly, others do seem a bit grey on which is worse (some posters seem to understand that mass-impact terrorism is much more serious than the donkey.elephant bread and circus game of the week.

This country is balkanized as hell.

[No Elephants]

187. You missed the part of my

The poster's premise was that Republicans ARE racist. If you disagee with his premise, fine. If you do not disagree with it, then, for you, the statement is a truth, not a stereotype.

Besides, Politicub's post was not bashing Republicans for stereotyping, but for being racist and for having one standard for fellow Republicans and another standard for Democrats. If the post had been about the evils of stereotyping, yes, it would have been ironic.

And, in truth, I believe the poster did not mean that every single Republican is racist, or that every single Democrat is not racist.

But, if I were to be totally candid, I would admit that my true goal was pulling Psephos's hair, which I enjoy (and recommend).

As far as my missing stereotypes, let me quote a Republican, S.I. Hayakawa: Cow 1 is not Cow 2. I've lived by that since I first read his book at the age of 17 (though the tile now escapes me).


On edit: The title of the book is Language in Thought and Action.

[Clovis Sangrail]

206. I doubt that politicub seriously considers all republicans racist

at least I'd hope there's enough grey matter there to figure out that's just a silly statement.

but why is it OK to say this?
even if it's half-hearted or off the cuff?

I know not all union members are terrible at their jobs but I know a few who are -- how would it be greeted if I commented on some thread that "Union workers are terrible at their jobs"?
disclaimer: I'm from a union family, have been in a few unions, and I'm generally very *pro union.

See? Even as an example I know that sort of statement is *so wrong that after typing it I immediately felt like I needed to add a disclaimer.

So why is the same sort of stereotypical statement about another group overlooked?
I'm pretty sure that nobody would accept any sort of 'but the the poster really didn't mean *all <insert group here> have no decency' had the stereotype been ... say ... school teachers.
It's interesting - hypocritical - and sometimes even entertaining when it's done while lamenting somebody else's doing the same.

and the "defending republicans" thing?
That's a complete cop out... the group that's been stereotyped is really immaterial to what I've said.
If you'd actually read what I typed you'd know that.

[CynicalObserver]

216. It remains to be seen what standard Reid is held to. In a political context discussing viable

candidates for the 2008 election, Obama's accent was certainly a valid topic. If he spoke with a notable accent of either rural or inner city tone, it is unlikely he would have been looked upon favorably as the nominee.

My view on the speech police, regardless of what party they are attacking, is that it is frightening as hell how some words are becoming verboten, if you are white (there is a stunning double standard on use of certain words by black people which would get a non-black in 20 kinds of trouble).

[pnwmom]

34. You have the timelines confused. The N* word was the slur

freely used during the time of segregation. "Nice" people said "colored." During Martin Luther King's time, Negro was the preferred term, followed by Black, and now African-American.

[No Elephants]

123. You are right.

In the South, during Jim Crow and beyond, Negro was often pronounced "Nigra." And that was for public consumption. Among like minded folk, the same people who said "Nigras" dropped the pretense. That may be why the the polite word was colored. However, when pronounced "Negro," by people outside the South, or by African Americans themselves, few objected.

During the early Sixties, folk began to say, "I am not "colored." I was born this way." And then "colored" was dropped in favor of "Negro." Relatively quickly, "Negro" was dropped in favor black, as in "Black is beautiful." But, also relatively quickly, "Afro-American" replaced "Black." Also relatively quickly, "African American" replaced "Afro-American"

Although I hope "Arican American remains a universally acceptable term, I would probably change my speech as soon as I become aware of a more pc replacement. (IMO, only a jerk would deliberately hurt anyone for something as trivial and easily altered as word choice? But, I think Reid's word choice was not deliberate.)

[panzerfaust]

153. go back far enough,

and we all are African-Americans

[No Elephants]

192. Yes, though we do not all have the Kalahari accent.

[CTyankee]

54. Yes, it was in use when I was young, too. I believe the Kennedys used it

altho not in a put down way. It was a term to describe a group of people.

That was a long time ago. What I want to know is what happens to someone who is so trapped in a time warp that he doesn't see the complete inappropriateness of the term? And he's our leader in the Senate? What every other sensible Democrat in this country knows, he DOESN'T know?

Now that's scary...

[treestar]

88. I don't think using the term commits you to the generalized

feelings of the age for white people. It becomes ingrained habit.

If the AA people of the time were using it, they might do it, too.

I don't like the way it keeps changing, what's the point?

[No Elephants]

129. "the AA people"? Please see Reply 123.

The least Americans owe people this country legally kidnapped, enslaved and treated much worse than their farm animals, is using whatever name for them is least hurtful to them. And, the offenses didn't end there. Nor has it ended now.

Just sayin'

And, no, my ancestors were not slaveowners. Doesn't matter. That legacy is part of being or becoming an American. Goes with the territory. Literally.

What's your big problem with the changes? What's the big deal about substituting one term for another?

[struggle4progress]

102. Negro Leagues Baseball Stamp Debuts in 2010 (The Afro-American)

http://www.afro.com.nyud.net:8090/Portals/1/inthenews/negro%20leagues%20baseball--1.jpg
(January 3, 2010) - Negro league baseball will be commemorated this year with the release of a U.S. Postal Service stamp in its honor. The stamp, which will be issued in June, was unveiled by the Postal Service on December 30 as part of its 2010 stamp program, according to a press release. The stamp was painted by Kadir Nelson and features Andrew “Rube” Foster (1879–1930), the “father” of Negro league baseball and founder of the first successful conclave of all-Black professional teams ... http://www.afro.com/tabId/551/itemId/5761/Negro-Leagues-Baseball-Stamp-Debuts-in-2010.aspx

Fremont PO and Negro League stars dedicate baseball stamp August 5
Event is part of town’s National Night Out observance
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 25, 2008
http://www.usps.com/communications/newsroom/localnews/nc/nc_2008_0729a.htm

[No Elephants]

122. ?

Negro League was a proper name at the time the Negro Leagues existed. Those leagues were never called African American Leagues.

If the word "babe" went out of use because it was deemed sexist at some point, you would still correctly issue a Babe Ruth stamp without offending anyone (well, anyone who is relatively sane, anyway)

Just to be clear: that was only a hypothetical. I don't not consider the word "babe" sexist, unless someone uses it to address a female who is not their significant other).

[struggle4progress]

126. ... The archeology is dramatically plain to older adults who, in one lifetime, have already heard

preferred usage shift from colored to Negro to black. The four lingual layers provide an abbreviated history of civil rights in this century ... But people ought to be able to call themselves whatever they wish. The desire to choose one's label is as American as apple pie. Consider the evolution from ladies to women or the gradual acceptance of Ms. Consider the rise of the term Hispanic, pressed into service to describe a variety of immigrants with little more in common than the Spanish language ... Mr. Jackson said ... ''Just as we were called colored, but were not that, and then Negro, but not that, to be called black is just as baseless.'' Maybe so now, but there was a time - not even a generation ago - when to be called black was a political triumph ...
Negro, Black and African-American
Published: December 22, 1988
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/22/opinion/negro-black-and-african-american.html?pagewanted=1

... Question 9 on the census, which asks for a person's race, lists as one of the options: "Black, African Am., or Negro" ... Sonny Le, a regional spokesman for the Census Bureau, said the term "Negro" has been on the survey for at least 100 years. He said the form is reviewed and analyzed thoroughly by different offices and advisory groups before being finalized. Le said the decision to keep the term "Negro" on the form was due principally to the fact some older African-Americans still identify themselves by that term. In fact, in the 2000 census, more than 50,000 people chose to write down explicitly that they identified themselves as "Negro" in a section where the census allows people to provide additional information. That number does not include those who checked the box "Black, African-Am., or Negro." "We decided to keep the term, but at the same time, I think it's good for everybody to have this conversation now," Le said. "The census is an evolving process. It's supposed to reflect our country. If enough people do not want the term, we should revisit again whether or not it belongs" ...
The word 'Negro' on 2010 census form sparks debate
By Chris Metinko and Linda Goldston
Bay Area News Group
Posted: 01/09/2010 12:37:48 PM PST
Updated: 01/09/2010 12:37:49 PM PST
http://www.mercurynews.com/valley/ci_14156729?nclick_check=1

... Yet, beyond asking and answering the standard query, "Who am I?," he explores the factors that have influenced and shaped his path in life and that have determined the social and historical context of his values and priorities. Along the way, he shares the knowledge gleaned from previous generations of colored, Negro, Black, and now African American educator-activists - vital insights that can help inform a brighter future for all this nation's citizens ... As he explains in his concluding subchapter, titled "An African American": The most important theme running through my life is the persistence and importance of the concept of race in America. The outrage this system based on preferences, unfairness, and an unequal distribution of privilege and power, generated in me became a roaring engine, providing the impetus for greater and more focused efforts to change things and to expand the phalanx of those committed to making this country, our country, live up to the promises and ideals of its most revered documents. That struggle continues to this day. It will end when I draw my last breath ...
Colored, Negro, Black: Chasing the American Dream, by Bernard Charles Watson. Philadelphia, PA: JDC Books, 1997. 265 pp. $22.00, cloth; $12.00, paper.
Reviewed by Ramona Hoage Edelin, The National Urban Coalition
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3626/is_199704/ai_n8782631/

[struggle4progress]

128. Senator Harry Reid's "Negro dialect" Obama Controversy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqmzsVkS6rI

[struggle4progress]

130. To answer your question: (1) the notion "race" is sociological, not scientific

(2) the categories in question concern how people describe themselves, and (as indicated in the old NYT editorial I posted above) people have a right to describe themselves however they want, a fact that the Census Bureau has recognized for decades: when I surveyed for the census thirty years ago, I was carefully instructed to ask people how they described their "race" and to mark the form accordingly, without making assumptions about self-identifications; the current census question apparently attempts to retain this philosophy of the right of self-identification

(3) the uses of such terms are closely tied in complicated ways to cultural issues: decades ago, I had the unusual experience on a job-site of being told by a group of workers at lunch that, since they regarded me as a friend, I could call them n*****s, but they also suggested I never use the word with anyone unless explicitly invited to do so; I had not used the word prior, either within their hearing or outside it, and I declined on historical grounds to begin using it

(4) whether or not a word is offensive is governed by both the intent of the speaker and the ears that hear it; a sensitive speaker, who says something at which offense is taken, can show good will by apologizing even if no offense were intended and even if only some listeners are offended

[No Elephants]

133. Thanks. You may have misunderstood my question mark, though.

(I am assuming that is the question you meant.) Since you added no comment, I was simply wondering what point you were making by publishing a notice that a Negroes Leagues stamp was being issued. Was it that it's okay for Reid to use the term "Negro" in 2010? Or was your point the opposite, having to do with discrimination in this country? That's all the question mark meant.


As to changes the archaeology of the terminology, I am familiar with it. Please see Reply 123.

[struggle4progress]

149. I answered your original unedited question "What is your point?"

though apparently not before you edited the post

[No Elephants]

151. Yes, you did. I just think you saw it as a broader question than I intended it to be.

(And by the time I saw your reply, I had forgotten how my post read originally.)

I don't know if we are disagreeing about anything, though. Unless you think Reid's age makes it okay for the Senate majority leader to be out of touch, or to make what certainly seems like a racist comment.

I agree you call people what they want to be called. I don't enjoy having people call me by nicknames that were okay with me when I was six, especially after I tell them that I don't enjoy it. And those are private folk speaking about a private person, not the voice of government discussing a race.

[No Elephants]

120. Using the N word would also be an exercise of First Amendment rights.

It's funny. Reid can admit he made a poor choice of words. But DUers have to disagree with him on that.

[OregonBlue]

16. My mother is 86 and not in the least racist but she still uses Negro. Her children have tried to

point out that it is now considered offensive but since she grew up in Texas, she thought she was doing the right thing by calling African Americans Negroes instead of the other N word. She just doesn't seem to be able to change and we all just try to ignore it since we know in her heart, she is not a racist or prejudiced person. Don't know if that's Harry's problem or not but some older people just don't get it.

[Politicub]

18. Career politicians should know better

My grandmother used to say "colored" and didn't mean it as a slur, but she never held public office. Indeed, it's true that it wasn't as offensive as it is now because we've come a ways as a society. But even accepted terms from ages ago meant "the other" at their core and are better being abandoned to the dustbin of history.

[CTyankee]

55. When my late brother was moved to a nursing home in 2003 due to a stroke,

he introduced me to "this little ole colored gal that's taking care of me!" with a big, warm smile on his face. I wanted to sink thru the floor. I felt that my family was completely disgraced, but my brother had had a stroke (and this was Texas) so I understood the lapse. It was a shocking moment to me nonetheless...he seemed to mean it in a nice way and the aide just smiled, but I didn't know whether I should apologize on the spot for his language or what. I ended up greeting her warmly and thanking her for all of her help with my brother, all the while mortified as hell...

[OregonBlue]

67. I know what you mean. Fortunately, my mom has never used it in front of an African American so I

haven't been put in that position but I must admit, when she says it in front of me, I just cringe. I've told her nicely it isn't polite and she needs to use black or African American but she still forgets. Of course, at her age she forgets a lot of things and she really is very sweet and not at all a bigot about any race to I try not to harp. She has "gotten" that she should call people Asian instead of oriental but I think that's because she had never been around Asian Americans until she moved to Oregon so it was not ingrained.

[CTyankee]

69. Oh, my mother referred to her Chinese-American doctor as a "chinaman"

if you can believe it! She loved her doctor by the way. And he was wonderful with her and was with her up to her peaceful death in a nursing home in 2005.

He had been her doctor for nearly 20 years. It's hard for me to understand these old ways of talking about people, but I've been in the Northeast since age 18, when I went away to college and never came back to live in Texas...

[No Elephants]

136. A lot of people loved their mammies, too. That does not mean they weren't racist.

[treestar]

89. One day it's going to change again, too

"African American" will no longer be correct one day.

[No Elephants]

127. Why? " Italian American" seems to have lasted a while.

Except for some reason, people find calling people "Guidos" more acceptable than calling people "Afro American."

[Retired AF Dem]

186. It's all bullshit to me

What would you call a white person born in Africa and emigrated to the U.S.? I guess it would be African American. In my opinion if you live in America you are an American no matter what race you are.

[No Elephants]

189. IAgree. In an ideal world, we would not have any occasion to classify people at all.

[OregonBlue]

211. That ignores that groups are proud of their own identities and don't all want to be part of

WASP America. They have every right to whatever designation they choose and every right to be proud of their differences. It's not necessarily us. My mother happened to be of Czech heritage. There were lots of Czech communities in Texas. She did not speak English until she was 8-9. She remained very proud of her heritage and belonged to Czech heritage clubs and foundations. She enjoyed being "other".

[No Elephants]

121. Reid is not 86, did not grow up in Texas and is a long-time United States Senator, who represents

people other than Caucasians. He should know better.

And it is not only the use of the word "Negro" that is offensive, though DUers are focusing on that alone.

He was trying to "sell" a Presidential candidate to America by describing him as light skinned and lacking "Negro dialect" unless he (Obama) wants one. The clear message-it's okay to elect Obama President because he is more like a white man than he is like someone who is "really a Negro."

[waiting]

218. What is this elusive "Negro dialect"?

That is the question. He is reinforcing the racist idea that only a light skinned white sounding guy can win elections. He should know better than that. Whether or not that has historically been the case isn't even relavent.

I agree with your insight on this.

[Roon]

140. My freeper Mother is 60

and she still says oriental instead of asian.

[No Elephants]

148. My father (and many others) used "oriental" to mean middle Eastern.

But that has nothing to do with Reid's comment, which, after all, is the context for his use of the word "Negro."

"Negro" may indicate being way out of touch. That may be acceptable for our moms and dads and others in private life, but not for a career politiician who is also a prominent voice of our federal government and of our Party, representing both citizens of all races and Democrats of all races.

As bad as it may be for a career politician and Senate Majority Leader to be that out of touch, it would be worse for him to be racist, but his comment as a whole sure seems racist. I have not seen it in the context of his book, but in the OP, racist it seems.

[Politicub]

17. Huh? He didn't say it when he was young

Your post makes no sense. I was exposed to some in my family who used awful racist slurs when I was young, and I don't go around using them today.

What a lame excuse.

[Autonomy]

19. Except 'negro' is not an 'awful racist slur'

it's just an out-dated term. Look at the footage of MLK. He says 'negro' all the time. We have the 'United Negro College Fund', etc.

[Politicub]

21. Then I challenge you to go around saying or calling people "negro" at work, shopping, etc.

and if someone is offended you can give the excuse that MLK Jr. said it.

Let me know how that works out for you.

(On edit - I want to clarify my earlier post that some odious people in my family when I was younger used much harsher terms than the one we're discussing. That would be the racial slur I was referring to. My point was even though I was exposed to that, I don't go around using such offensive words and am offended by people who do.)

[Autonomy]

Do I have 'white person' as my signature?

You assume a lot. Okay, let's assume I am white. I say the word 'negro' to a black person I don't know very well. What will be their reaction? It depends, mostly on the age of both participants. Older people generally won't think much of it. Harry Reid is from that generation. I don't think much of him saying 'negro'.

[kelly1mm]

42. Well some may be offended when they get the 2010 census - it uses

the term Negro.

[No Elephants]

138. Not really comparable.

[Igel]

106. And you touch upon a very important point.

If somebody doesn't mean something to be derogatory or insulting, is it?

If somebody takes a word to mean something derogatory or insulting, is it?

After all, a word's meaning--including connotations--are determined not by its sounds. The sounds by themselves are utterly meaningless, otherwise there'd only be one language and words like "chernysh" or "negritian" would mean something to you without your having to ponder them or look them up in Google. I wouldn't be looking at a Turgenev story, "Prizraki," and debating how best to translate the title. I don't like "phantoms", the usual translation, but might be stuck with it. I digress.

A word's meaning is determined by what a community of speakers settles upon. If I say "starve" it doesn't matter that it started out as just the word for "die" (cf. German sterben), when I say "nice" it doesn't matter that 200 years ago it meant "silly". The community of speakers that existed 1200 years ago is as dead as the one that existed 200 years ago.

What my two questions at the start of this post are intended to point out is that there is *not* a community of speakers such that we've all settled on what some words mean. There are competing communities of speakers with a fair amount of ill-will between them--and this kind of blind obeisance to predetermined definitions ensures that the tribal boundaries endure and even strengthen. We constantly see this--in this case, over "negro" but in previous dissents it's been over expressions like "tar-baby". In both cases one set of speakers has one set of markedly non-racist associations with what's said; another set has a second, always racist. Crucially, one side counterfactually denies that any other associations are possible. (I recently came upon a 3rd set for "tar baby"--I hadn't realized that the Brer Rabbit tale is essentially the echo of an Anansi story, one that still is alive and well in Jamaican folklore with no racist connotations in this context. I thank Gaiman's latest novel for that.)

The problem is the ol' "you're with us or against us" mentality. Both sides--well, one more than the other--assume that they and only they have the One True Definition of a single word used in both communities of speakers. It simplifies matters--the listener no longer has to actually think and consider what's said, no longer has to mount an argument to support an accusation. Instead, the listener can immediately emote since judgment is predetermined and the accusation assumed proven true by virtue of being made; moreover, any dissent from the listener's opinion is automatically subject to judgment. It's all very authoritarian, and in linguistics it's sort of bizarre to even think such claims could be serious, well, unless they're simple prescriptivist drivel.

It helps nothing that human language is rich in polysemy. Again, the very idea of a One True Definition would rule that out, but polysemy abounds. It's the One True Definition idea that's whacked. It's not just as simple as possible, it's simpler than possible--or at least you'd think so. But with sufficiently strong belief, all things are possible, or at least imposable.

If the speakers were speaking sufficiently divergent dialects, we'd call for translation. But since they're apparently speaking the same language that leads to a lot of confusion; well, actually, it allows people to be confused, if I want to be more precise. I mean, some may try to act like "Ebonics" or AAEV is a rather separate dialect, but when push comes to shove many adherents of that view don't actually follow it consistently. Hell, they can't even accept polysemy, how could they accept having two different dialects? Nope. One True Definition. And it's all ours.

To be honest, everybody tends to assume something like this until they learn better. Teaching Americans Russian you eventually have to deal with the Russian word for "sew", which sounds impressively like "shit." Shoe-cabbages help get your mind around the idea that sound and meaning are purely by convention. (A shoe-cabbage is a bilingual word pair in which what sounds like the same word has two meanings in different languages--French 'chou' sounds like 'shoe' but means 'cabbage'. Hence shoe-cabbage. Had we started with my Russian example they'd be called "shit-sews".)


Reid's guilty of not being sufficient sensitive to other people's assumptions about what words must mean to all English speakers. He assumes he has a say and that people actually want to know what he means. Silly Reid. First emote, then judge, then seek to understand (if there's time).

[No Elephants]

139. If a comment implies that white are superior, it's a derogatory comment, no matter what

the speaker intended by it. Please see Replies 121 and 134.

[RedRubberBall]

22. Blacks use "Negro" as a slap to other Blacks

But I'm sure Harry is so out of touch he would not know that.

[Dave From Canada]

25. Exactly. It's more of an outdated term, than a blantant racial slur.

[No Elephants]

137. Please see Reply # 121, 123 and 134.

[BP2]

28. For those who say Negro is not a racist slur, please feel free to

utter the term among a group of African Americans at a social gathering.

If you're not an African American and refer to someone as a negro, you'll rightfully be shunned and quite possibly receive a serious ass kicking.


Between the HCR Bill he crafted out of the Senate and now this, Harry might as well join Dodd and Dorgan to announce he won't run for re-election.

He's an embarrassment to the Democratic Party.

[Autonomy]

32. I see. You can tell us what black people will do

and not only that, you're pretty sure it will be violence. Nice.

[earthlite]

41. Im more offended by that than a slur.

Being mixed race Ive heard it all but assuming Im a good dancer, good at sports, or more prone to violence or crime because Im part black offends me more than any name or word.

[Autonomy]

59. And evidently you don't have your own will, either.

Because someone know what you will do. Maybe you're a Manchurian Candidate. All one has to do is say 'negro' and you turn into a killing machine.

[BP2]

64. If I offended you, I'm sorry. But I never assumed you are

more prone to violence. That could be a possible reaction, but not the only one.

What would be your reaction? I would think not favorable.

[No Elephants]

141. Agree. But how about trying to convince people that it's okay for you to be POTUS bc you act

more white than African American,though?

The thread headline and the article in the OP is not about only use of the word "Negro." Everyone seems to have focused on that. However, Reid's entire comment is the issue. It was unfortunate and would have been unfortunate, even if he had used the term "African American dialect." Please see Reply 121.

[Politicub]

174. Agreed. It's about the context and what he said

not just a single word.

[BP2]

61. Do you think being called that would

endear a handshake? If not an ass-kicking, then an ass-chewing. And rightfully so.

[TroglodyteScholar]

75. +1000 n/t

[No Elephants]

143. "Ass kicking" is often used for a verbal dressing down, much like a "can of whup ass."

(This goes only to a too literal interpretation of the term "ass kicking. I am not suggesting that I know what any individual of any hue might do upon hearing the word "Negro.")

[earthlite]

37. Ass kicking?

That is more offensive than using a racial slur. To assume an African American would kick your ass for using the word Negro doesnt speak highly of yourself or what you think about them.

[BP2]

63. Your use of the word "them" is interesting. But please, give me your best assessment

as to the reaction you think you'd receive if you used the word.

I wrote, "You'll rightfully be shunned and quite possibly receive a serious ass kicking."

Shunned OR Ass kicking. I would include tongue-lashing with shunned. I can only guess by my own reaction.

Hand-shakes and smiles was not included in my assessment.


Is it in yours?

[Autonomy]

65. Why is 'them' interesting? Are you implying something?

Just say what you mean. Why is that interesting?

So you're angry at someone for saying a word that you think is offensive to other people, but when someone admits he is one of those people and is more offended by YOUR words, you don't apologize. At least Reid apologized.

[BP2]

73. Harry used more than just the word "negro," he described Barack as "light skinned" and

"with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one." THAT'S HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. To me, that seems to show Harry thinks that Barack
changes his dialect and talks more "negro" if the audience fits.

How could that not be offensive?


Go back and look at the story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100109/ap_on_el_se/us_obama_reid


Also, if you look above in this thread, I did apologize if I offended Autonomy. But when YOU say "them," you might as well say "those people."

I'm not angry, per se, that Harry used the word that appears in the 2010 census, but the context of Harry's word.

I can say I've never noticed that Barack doesn't have a "Negro dialect," certainly that it changes.

Have you?

[Autonomy]

76. We were discussing one word in this subthread

not the whole statement, but I will reply briefly. Looking at the quote, it seems to me he was talking about what the American public would be willing to accept. He was assessing Obama's chances of being elected. He did not think a dark-skinned person with a ghetto patois (inferred ironically) would be elected. I've no doubt he is right about that.

"When I say 'them' I might as well say 'those people'"? I did say 'those people'. Look at the post to which you're replying.

It seems to me you've lost your common sense and your ability to tell by tone, source, context, and intent, what is offensive. It's not good to be so easily offended. But it's far worse to be offended for someone else. The word for that is 'patronizing'.

[No Elephants]

145. Looking at the quote out of context does not lead me to conclude that

Reid was talking about why American people might accept an African American as U.S. Senator or POTUS. And, if that were indeed what Reid was saying, then he insulted both African Americans and all other Americans, not only African Americans.

Although I disagree with many of the things Obama has said and done since he was elected, I was an all out supporter of his from the primaries until he started making appointments.

At no time did I consider his gender, his lighter skin color or his lack of "Negro dialect" when I chose him over all other candidate, both Democratic and Republican.

Again, I don't have a crystal ball or read minds, but I rather suspect that anyone who would find Obama acceptable in federal office because his skin and his speech is not quite like that of darker, more "white spoken" African Americans would not have voted for him as long as any white person was in the race. But, that is just a guess on my part. I guess some "hard working white Americans" who felt that way might have voted for Hillary, but not for McCain, if their Democratic principles ran deeper than their racism, although that's hard to imagine.

[No Elephants]

154. This subthread discusses Reid's use of one word in context of his comment about Obama..

"But it's far worse to be offended for someone else. The word for that is 'patronizing'."

In your opinion. Others may call it empathy, or sensitivity, or understanding someone else's point of view, the lack of any or all of which has lands some folk in "sensitivity training."

As far as beomg offended FOR someone else, that is not the source of taking issue with Reid's comment. I don't like it that that someone who leads my Party in Congress and speaks for my government said what Reid say. I don't like it that people get sent to unnecessary wars, either, even though I am not in the military. I don't like it that people murder, either, even though I am not a member of any murder victim's family.

[marshall]

109. Don't people change the way they talk for the audience?

I certainly remember Hillary getting far more southern with her drawl when she was campaigning through the south. The offensive thing about it would be if he implied that was somehow dishonest or not genuine--but it's done by everyone on the national scene.

[No Elephants]

146. Some changes could be considered pandering and/or condescending, though.

[No Elephants]

162. Really? Everyone on the national scene uses a drawl when talking to an African

American audience, even speakers who are not Southerners? I never noticed that. I guess JFK must have practiced a lot if he did that. His greater Boston accent was quite pronounced. His brothers, too. Mondale? Reagan? Heck, I don't think even Carter thickened his accent when speaking to African Americans.

I didn't mind Hillary's drawl getting more pronounced as much as I minded her comment to an African American audience about Democrats in Congress (pre-2006) being on the plantation. Slavery and dealing with Delay are not exactly analogous.

Of course, she did something of a 180 during the primaries, when she referred to herself as the candidate of the hard working white folk.

[Igel]

112. He does.

During the campaign when he was speaking to a white or mixed race audience on policy he spoke standard English. Pretty much what would have been called "NBC English" 50 years ago. His language suited his topic.

When he was speaking to a nearly entirely black group he shifted his phonology and lexicon considerably in the direction of AAEV. I didn't hear him go all the way to the dominant AAEV variety, but AAEV and standard English can hybridize and mix to form something very creole-continuum-like so he didn't really have to.

When he was being preachy he adopted a middle ground. To my wife's white colleagues he sounded vaguely MLK-ish. To my ears he was adopting the cadences to be found in black churches (and some white churches). This makes sense given that MLK was Reverend King. It set my teeth on edge. I have an intense dislike for preachers.

It's not racist to say that he altered his language variety. He was using the linguistic resources at his disposal to influence his audience, to show solidarity. This is smart, and I'm not about to say that Obama's a stupid politician because he's not. Now, in Obama's case AAEV is also a learned variety--he didn't grow up speaking it, it's something he chose to adopt, whether in whole or in part, for reasons that people usually adopt a different speech variety: They desire to belong to that group. And it may not even have been conscious. Good speakers adapt themselves to their audience. And when it comes to showing solidarity, a little goes a long way. HRC did precisely the same thing: Speaking to southern audiences, she speaks southern Midlands, she's one of them; speaking to others, she speaks NBC English, she's one of *them*, as well. And she has mixed varieties.

I've said before, Margaret Thatcher had a working class background and that was her first speech variety; but she was a Tory, and in order to speak as expected she took elocution lessons. She needed to be an insider. Tony Blair was very much middle class and spoke fairly proper English, but was Labor--when he spoke to working class groups he aimed for as working class a pronunciation as he could manage. It's not a black-white thing. It's not always a conscious-manipulation thing. It's a linguistic thing and often intuitive. An old girlfriend of mine from Tennessee spoke to me in standard, but she'd turn to her brother and speak Appalachian. It wasn't conscious.

Personally, I think it's an insult to say that somebody is too dull or unawares to take advantage of linguistic correlates of solidarity and group membership.

[No Elephants]

150. Whether affecting an accent/cadence etc. that is not native to you is

an affectation, or pandering or condescension or "smart" (or all of the above) is a matter of opinion.

However, just in terms of the Thacher analogy alone. It's one thing for someone to whom a certain accent comes naturally to learn the accent of the ruling class or the accent of the broadcasting industry, or of whatever one seeks to join (truly join, not merely win over to get votes). And then to revert to their native accent when with their homies, as Thacher may have on occasion. Thacher wanted to be a member of the British ruling class, not just get its vote. So, she internalized its way of speaking.

t would be another thing entirely for Prince Charles to use Cockney when speaking to Cockneys, trying to pretend that Cockney were his own way of speaking.

I am not trying to characterize using one speech or another as good or bad, smart or dumb. I am just saying that Thacher's adopting in "the King's English" would be very different from Prince Charles doing the reverse. And the practice would take on a whole other layer if Prince Charles tried using speech to say "I'm one of you" to an audience of African Americans.

Where I disagree: I think using a speech pattern that you have not internalized is always conscious. I knew an actor who grew up with a thick Brooklyn accent. He shed it to become an actor and internalized "standard speech." If he were to speak Brooklynese for purposes of making a speech to Brooklynites today, that would be an artifice and require a conscious effort on his part. And he would have to have a conscicous reason for making that choice and effort.

[No Elephants]

142. Obama's natural speech wold be a mix of Mid Western and Hawaiian American, perhaps with a bit.

of Indonesian American thrown in.

Obama was raised in Hawaii by mid Western white people whose "white" roots in this go back to the 1600's and primarily in the mid West, as opposed to the East Coast. His father, who abandoned Obama when Obama was only 2, had a Kenyan accent. B

etween the ages of 6 and 10 he was in schools in Indonesia, living with his Midwestern mom and his Indonesian step dad. His book speaks of his going to Army bases in Hawaii when he was in teens to spend time with African Americans, to try to figure out his identity.

Naturally, he would have nothing remotely like a "Negro dialect," whether Reid was referring to a drawl, or certain cadences, or to what Jackson once called ebonics, any more than his half-sister would naturally have any of those things.

[earthlite]

178. My reaction would depend on the person

If it was an old white person with friendly intent I wouldn't think anything more than they are out of date and touch with modern language. If it was somebody like Rush Limbaugh throwing it around I would take strong offense. Either way, I wouldn't get up in anyones face over it.

[ZombieHorde]

39. I know you mean well, but that is not cool. nt

[Mosaic]

46. Shame on Harry Reed

Americans, including Democrats, are always finding "safe"and sneaky ways to express their racism or hate. Some of their devious ways include racist tv commercials, internet comments, late night comedy, political punditry, biased research, polls, car alarm abuse, racist reporting, lame jokes, etc. ad revoltom. It has got to stop, for peace and justice, or we shall stagnate as a nation.

[Dave From Canada]

48. In what context would one us the term negro at an African-American gathering? Should I say hi

negros? Would it be better if I said hi African-Americans instead? Nope. The word negro is inappropriate, but not on the same level as the word n*gger. And let's not pretend it is.

[No Elephants]

147. I have not seen anyone equate "Negro" with "n*gger." And you have to look at the

entire comment because Reid used the word in the context of a racist statement. And Reid is a member of a religion that thought African Americans inherently inferior and did not allow them as members, then not as clergy until 19798. (Some churches did not allow people of color to join or lead a particular congregation, but I know of no other major religion in this country that took that position for the religion as a whole.) Reid became a member of that religion well before 1978, after years of Mormon teaching. http://www.mormonwiki.com/Harry_Reid

Perhaps that is just coincidence, though. Whatever his religious beliefs, the comment seems to be saying that Obama is okay because his skin is light and he does not speak like many other African Americans.

Bottom line on just the word "Negro" alone, though: for any career federal politician to use that word in 2010, shows how very out of touch that politician is. After all, how do we sometimes refer to the acceptable term? "Politically correct." And it's incumbent upon a politician who holds as poweerful a national position as does Reid to know the politically correct term.

[treestar]

90. I wouldn't, but why wasn't it wrong in the late 60s?

None of the terms are derogatory. Or, they don't have to be.

[WriteDown]

93. Or try negress which was also a popular term. nt

[Nye Bevan]

107. Yeah. Take a look at this racist website:

[No Elephants]

164. Please see Reply # 134. Not really comparable to Reid's unthinking remark.

[Politicub]

176. I *knew* someone would post that to try and prove something

Here, check out this site:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/negro

It's there, too! Crazy!

(and even though this post is meant to be sarcastic, it is interesting to note that the American Heritage dictionary has in its definition that the word is "often offensive." Which means, it's all about context, which makes Reid's comment still pretty stupid.)

[Igel]

108. Don't assume sound strings have intrinsic meanings.

At least apart from onomatopeia (and even then it's a bit sketchy).

"Negro" is interpreted as a slur by some hearers, esp. when used by whites. Whether or not "Negro" is intended as a slur depends on the speaker and what s/he understands the word to mean or the range of meanings it can have.

What the word "is" depends on having a community of speakers, including the hearer and speaker, agree. If there is no agreement we have two different dialects and a bit of linguistic diversity to spread our minds to deal with. In some cases a word can be an insult or not. Take the word "Jew" for instance. I'm familiar with it as a fairly neutral term. But when my mother says somebody's a "Jew lawyer," it's a slur. In her speech it's both a neutral ethnic term *and* a term of abuse. You hear her say the word, you have to actually think. Quelle horreur!

And that leaves aside matters of context, intonation, etc., etc.

I've heard "negro" used neutrally. I've heard "African-American" intended as a real insult. I guess some would say I was wrong: The first guy must have been insulting, regardless of the rest of the sentence and context; and the second guy must have been respectful, regardless of the rest of the context. Still, I think my understanding of what was said was accurate, even if it does require the rousing of my neurons from their usual state of rest.

[marshall]

110. I doubt Harry is familiar with the current term AAVE

African American Vernacular English is the currently accepted way to phrase what he was talking about--it succeeded Ebonics (which is still in use but is considered equally offensive by some) and presumably it succeeded the term Reid used. I've also seen it termed "black talk".

But I've only heard AAVE used in academic discussion and writing. I'm not sure what the "on the street" way of phrasing it is, other than to say "standard English" and "non-standard English".

[Retired AF Dem]

188. Now you aren't saying that

African Americans are quick to violence are you?

[No Elephants]

134. Reid's comment was racist, though. And MLK was using the term that was correct at the time that he

used it. Reid spoke in 2010, not in 1958. (Please also see Reply 123 and 121.)

As for the United Negro College Fund, that is a proper name, chosen when Negro was the acceptable term. Please see Reply 129 Changing it would cost the charity lots of money in terms of re-establishing name recognition, which it might never fully do. And, I bet, if you asked them, they would have other good reasons for continuing to use it.

Bottom line, though: If Reid's comment had been otherwise acceptable, his use of the word "Negro" may not have been an issue.

Maybe bc the first post on the thread was about the word "Negro," people have focused on that. But, even the headline is about the entire comment, not about only use of the word "Negro."

Reid admitted the comment was an unfortunate choice of words. IMO, it was worse than that, as I stated in Reply 121 However, I think we should at least agree with Reid that his choice of words was unfortunate.

[secondwind]

27. you took the words right out of my mouth.

[demosincebirth]

50. We speak spanish in our neighborhood and...

what other word can we use, except "un negro," which means a blackman. "Negro" translated to English is the color black. Much to do about nothing, I think.

[No Elephants]

135. Reid was speaking English and had many choices, though. Please see Reply 134.

[elocs]

51. A retired Republican woman I know still uses the term "colored" people.

Wow, welcome to the 21st century.

[Odin2005]

80. But he's politician, he should know the term is not used anymore.

He doesn't have the "out of the loop" excuse, say, my Grandmother, who was a passionate Obama supporter before she died a few months ago at the age of 86, did. She called him "that fine young Negro gentleman", but she has an excuse, Reid doesn't.

[treestar]

87. "United Negro College Fund"

National Association for the Advancement of Colored people

For my generation, it's "black."

I don't know the point of continually changing the politically correct term, I just try to follow it, but often end up in default mode of what was correct during my youth.

[No Elephants]

156. As to United College Fund, please see Reply ##s 122 and 134. NAACP is much

the same as UNCF. Inherent in both those names is a lot of advertising money, name recognition, fund-raising ability and goodwill. Changing them would be very costly and would forever lose some folks (and their donations and goodwill. And, as I posted in Reply 134, if you asked the organizations why they have retained those names, even though they are hurtful to some, each of them would probably give you more reasons than I can.

You cannot compare that with Reid's unthinking use of "Negro" in the context of a racist comment with anything like the Negro Leagues, the United Negro College Fund or the NAACP.

For that matter, you cannot equate it with your use of "black." First, African Americans who would never use "Negro" to refer to their race do use "black." Second, and more significantly, you are a private person. You represent yourself, not constituents of all races, not the U.S. government and not the Democratic Party. And you are not in the public eye or facing bad poll numbers for the next election.

[No Elephants]

119. Isn't a Senator in 2010 supposed to be more up to date than 1955, though?

[kelly1mm]

35. the 2010 census uses the term Negro as well. FYI. nt

[No Elephants]

157. Please see Reply # 155.

[ShortnFiery]

68. I guess it's good we have it on The Census" so that people like Harry Reid won't

become confused and claim to be one? :wow:

[No Elephants]

155. The Census is about how people identify THEMSELVES. It has nothing to do with Reid's comment.,

http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/news-united-states-chooses-to-use-term-negro-on-2010-census-r-1262803492

[No Elephants]

131. The word "Negro" was not the most offensive thing about his comment.

[harkadog]

2. He only apologized because he was caught.

[Dave From Canada]

26. Isn't that why most people apologize?

[harkadog]

70. Which simply means the apology is not genuine.

[No Elephants]

160. Again, not necessarily.

[secondwind]

29. perhaps he forgot he said that? He is from another era.

[harkadog]

71. If he is from another era then he shouldn't be Majority leader.

I want someone from the current era.

[No Elephants]

158. Not necessarily. Maybe he

he apologized because he realized how offensive his comment was only after folks pointed thatout to him. And, once they pointed it out, he truly regretted his past comment.

You cannot possibly know what is in someone's heart or mind, just from what they say.

[BP2]

3. Why the hell would Harry feel a need to use

such language in the first place?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

4. So Reid has to apologize for a large part of the American electorate being racist assholes?

Because that's what his comment is about - dealing with the realities of politics and elections in America.

Hey, it's not like we've got a bunch of Senators and Representatives with ignorant Southern cracker accents...

Wait a minute. It's EXACTLY like that.

[No Elephants]

193. I disagree that Reid's comment reflects the realities of American politics.

Some who are bigoted against people with African heritage is unlikely to vote for anyone with African heritage, no matter how they speak or how light skinned they are. Some would rise above their own bigotry, if they felt Obama were better qualified than his opponent, but not simply bc Obama has lighter skin or a Mid Western accent. Some would vote for Obama BECAUSE he is African American (and otherwise qualified). In that category may be some African Americans and some affirmative action fans. And some might vote for him simply because he is African American. And some would look only at his qualifications.

The more I think about it, the more I think Reid's comment is as insulting to the American voter as it is to Obama or to African Americans in general.

[RedRubberBall]

5. Better than Cruz Bustamante's 'slip' of the tongue

But is an insight into the man's true self

[Honeyporter735]

45. two words: Joe Biden n/t

[marshall]

169. I assume Biden's comments are in this book too

It sounds like the book gathers together lots of back room comments. Obama was definitely something new in politics, as well as quite different.

[CynicalObserver]

6. At some point when people grow up, they realize

that all politicians are scum, without exception.

[KittyWampus]

9. holy macaroni, that really IS cynical.

[CynicalObserver]

11. Pragmatism and realism isn't cynicism. ntxt

[KittyWampus]

10. scuse me.

[tledford]

96. *THAT* is a load of crap.

Back to freerepublic.com, freeper.

[CynicalObserver]

103. U R Right, the last year overwrites 2500 years of recorded history on

republics and democracies. As the famous selling line goes, 'this time it really is different.' Please make sure to pay in advance.

Whatever.

[jimshoes]

7. He shouldn't have said anytrhing about it till some

right wing hack starts in on him. He's going to get skewered 10 ways to Sunday anyway.

[Sultana]

12. This bitch...

STFU!!!

[soleft]

15. As they sing in Avenue Q

Everyone's a little bit racist.

[cowcommander]

23. You'd think a democrat would know better

This is the sort of shit I expect from a republican, not a dem!

[47of74]

81. Yeah, you'd think...

But this is Harry Reid we are talking about here.

[Beacool]

24. Well, didn't Biden call Obama "clean and articulate" and is now his VP?

:shrug:

[No Elephants]

161. Not the same thing, but not too far removed, either.

I really want my President to be clean and articulate, no matter what his or her race is, but I'm fine with my President sounding like Jesse Jackson. And I don't need my President to have light skin.

As for being V.P. I'd bet most racist politicians would accept the Vice Presidency, regardless of the race of the person offering it to them.

[secondwind]

30. STOP IT! the word NEGRO is in the current census .....get over it.....not a big deal!

[Skip Intro]

31. But being outraged is so much fun! nt

[CLANG]

60. LOL. Don't tell anyone negro means black in spanish

The thing that bothers is he put this in a book. Doesn't he have any regular people review his work before publishing?

[No Elephants]

167. What does that have to do with Reid saying Negro in English, instead of African American?

[divideetimpera]

43. but it is a great distraction from HCR, progressive taxation, labor laws etc

you don't really think today's democrats are going to focus on economic issues that would unify the workers, do you? THey like to remain focused on politically correctness and other divisive issues.

[Dr Fate]

56. What he means by "negro dialect" is the issue, not the mere use of the word negro.

n/t

[stuart68]

82. exactly

The statement itself, is by definition racist. not for the term negro, but its use.

what is a negro dialect anyway ? Is that what "those" people use when they are in their negro housing, eating their negro foods ?

This man is a scumbag, and he got caught with his true attitude showing. I think he helped a light skinned negro get elected out of some sort of guilt, as opposed to basing his decision on capability.

He should resign, and while Obama needs to accept his apology to get health-care done, I would have expected him to hold Reid to a higher standard.

[Igel]

113. I take it to mean AAEV,

or standard English with AAEV traits (most often some lexical items or phonology).

A lot of them are just traits held in common with many Southern dialects. Some aren't. AAEV's diverged a bit more rapidly in the last 50-60 years than before, and with the migration of blacks from the South northwards, and from East to West, urban AAEV's become a lot more standardized in the last couple of generations (at least according to people who claim to be able to make pronouncements on such things).

Or aren't I allowed to notice that the blacks on my street don't speak the same way as the whites on my street? (Can I at least notice that the Latinos don't usually speak the same language I usually do?)

And, yes, I call it AAEV, African-American English Vernacular. It was the going term when I studied such things, whatever the field's drifted towards since then. It's English, spoken almost entirely by African-Americans, and lacks a standard written or educated register (at least once distinct from the most common spoken variety) hence it's a vernacular.

[No Elephants]

207. You are allowed to notice whatever you want. And I am allowed to comment on what you say.

How does the speech of the whites on your street compare with the speech of whites on the Maury Povitch and Jerry Springer shows, though--especially those who are involved in interracial relationships (including friendships)? For I notice the same thing that many comedians have commented on--that when African Americans and whites socialize closely over a period of time, it is much more likely than the whites start talking like the African Americans than vice versa (assuming there was a difference to begin with). So, I'm thinking your street may be the exception to the rule, unless all the whites moved there recently.

[stuart68]

214. I get your point

but find it hard to believe that this was what HR meant.

[No Elephants]

171. I thought the issue was whether his entire comment was racist.

[BP2]

66. It may be in the census. But if it's not a big deal, then why

would Harry feel a need to apologize for it?

He's not apologized for losing the Public Option for us, the re-importation of pharmaceuticals
and nearly all that needs to be in the Senate's HCR Bill, yet some here at DU think that's not a big deal either.

A questioning of priorities seems to be in order on a great many things.

[No Elephants]

166. Re: the Census, please see Reply #155,

[No Elephants]

168. Please see Reply #155 and the artide linked in that post.

Besides which, what would make the U.S. Census the final arbiter of what is okay for Harry Reid to say?

[NashVegas]

33. Ooh, The Outraged White People

Upset over the idea that someone pointed out part of what they meant when they said Barack Obama was oh so "electable."

[divideetimpera]

40. Ignorance is Strength and Some Truths are Unspeakable

remember, Big Brother is watching what you say.

[divideetimpera]

44. They have been programed with race guilt so that they have to prove they are not racists

labor laws, progressive taxation, and national healthcare, eh, not so important to them. But oh, if you utter a politcally incorrect race-word, their fury will be upon thee...

[No Elephants]

196. "Programmed with race guilt?" Labor laws, progressive taxation, national

health care not important?

Riiiigt.

Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[CTyankee]

57. Of course. I knew that and every white person knew that, too.

Let's not try to pretend we didn't.

Still, use of the term "Negro" is abominable and begs the question of why such a person is in such a powerful position in the Democratic Party?

[No Elephants]

181. I never knew "electible" meant light-skinned. Obama is by far not the first candidate

to have been called electible and many a white male has been called unelectible. I think Reid insulted not only Obama but every voter who is not a raging bigot. And I don't see any KKK-like character voting for any African American, no matter what "dialect" he or she uses or how light skinned he or she may be.

[No Elephants]

170. You think you can read minds?

It's indisputable that he was electible because he got elected. So, people who said that were simply making a correct statement. Precisely what they meant by it is another issue. You can't really know that. Being African American was far from Obama's only characteristic.

[divideetimpera]

36. as long as his language is correct, it's OK if he screws us around on HCR

priorities, priorities....

[BrklynLiberal]

38. DUH! Why was that in the book.. They couldn't figure out how to remove it??

Unless, of course, someone wanted to embarrass Sen Reid....

[Alcibiades]

47. Interesting that no one says Ried is wrong

I've noticed it, too: not simply that the President is Black (he is, and White, too) but the way his intonation changes in front of different audiences.

If you have not read "Dreams From My Father," I urge you to do so. I hate books written by politicians, because most are simply lies, and boring, and poorly ghost-written. Obama's book is none of these things, and may be the most honest biography since Rousseau's "Confessions." It helps you to understand why he is a little Zelig-like: always the outsider, he's had to adapt, from being biracial, to moving a lot, to having an absent Kenyan father, to being a middle-class American in the Ivy League, to being an Ivy Leaguer in Chicago. We're always supposed to be one thing, our true selves at all times, but Obama shows how versatile a person can be if he has to be. He's adapting still in office, masterfully.

People's speech does change when speaking to different audiences. When I moved to an Army base in Germany at age 11, I grew tired of kids assuming I was a racist peckerwood because of my South Carolina accent, so I sat down with a tape recorder and tried to make myself sound Midwestern. It largely worked, and that is the voice I still use today, but when I find myself speaking with southerners of whatever race, I find myself slipping back into a dialect I made myself forget thirty years ago, especially if beer is involved.

[Dave From Canada]

49. Oh, I think Reid was wrong to say it, but it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. Even if

he had said "no African-American dialect", it still wouldn't have been appropriate. People are getting a case of the vapors over the word negro. Come'on people, lets not be cowards. We shouldn't be afraid of discussing things like these.

[paulsby]

62. heck, hillary's intonation changes in front of different audiences

as has been seen endlessly.

so does mine. if i'm around my surfer friends, we morph into "surfer dialect".

around my hawaiian friends, we start to break out da pidgin.

there are regional dialects, and there ARE ethnic dialects. the thing is those dialects aren't limited to one ethnicity, although they may be more prevalent in some than others. in hawaii, most people can at least speak pidgin if they grew up there. it's not limited to any ethnicity. in fact, pidgin evolved in order for people with DIFFERENT primary languages (tagalog, english, hawaiian, etc.) to be able to communicate.

when a bunch of my relatives who speak yiddish, get around each other, they start to speak differently as well.

[No Elephants]

177. Do you morph into an African American dialect (whatever that is)

around African Americans, though?

If you grew up in Honolulu, you heard the same accents Obama did for most of his youth, the rest being Indonesians speaking English or his Midwestern family.

[paulsby]

208. as to your question, not really

although i do speak "street" so to speak, having lived (for some time) and worked in da hood much of my life.

it's not a racial thing. it's a street thang.

i am sure obama can break out da pidgin since he lived hawaii for so long.

bu laia has some good vids, and sound files on his page for those unfamiliar with pidgin

http://www.myspace.com/braddabu

[Robb]

77. Excellent observations, as usual.

It's also notable that Reid wasn't wrong about how Obama would be perceived in different settings, with different choices of dialect and speech patterns. In my opinion, of course. But it's been my experience that people who can tailor their speech to fit an audience, do. Because people try to size you up by the way you talk as much as anything else -- sadly including outward appearance, skin color, dress choice.

We are a nation of snap judgments, trying our best to move beyond them.

[No Elephants]

175. Please see Reply # 150. And slipping back into an accent you had from childhood

is very different from Obama's situation. He grew up in Hawaii and Indonesia, raised by Midwesterners and an English speaking Indonesian. He does not slip back into a drawl. He decides to affect an accent that is different from anything he heard growing up, as though I were to speak With a British accent.

[Alcibiades]

215. In his book, Obama describes

hanging out with the few black peers who were available to him at a young age. I imagine that's where he picked up the African-American lingo he sometimes puts on display--that, and church, because he sometimes does get a little rhythmic.

I quite agree that it is something he did pick up later, but I don't think it's entirely phony in the way that, say, Bush's "Texas" accent is. Our peers can exert a stronger influence on us than our parents. I did find his description of how he has searched for an authentic racial identity rather refreshing--to the extent that there's artifice there, he more than owns up to it in his book.

Anyway, I'm not terribly disturbed by his co-opting African-American colloquialisms: white people have been doing it for fifty years, and the President is a little more entitled to do it than most of us.

[DissedByBush]

52. "unless he wanted to have one"

I work in a professional environment in the IT field. Everyone in my office is well-educated, most with college degrees, the rest working towards their degrees.

My office is about 30% black, higher than in the general population, and they occupy from the lowest to highest positions like anybody else. None of them speak like they're "from the hood." There are no Ebonics spoken in my office unless someone's making a joke.

We're all professionals and we don't give a damn about skin color. But you had better be able to communicate properly and write your documents in proper English.

It's about education, not race.

As an educated man I wouldn't expect Obama to speak with a "negro dialect" in his official capacity.

This sounds even more questionable since Obama wasn't raised in a black environment. He was raised basically white middle class. He could have only picked up that pattern of speech in college, and it wouldn't be native to him.

[Igel]

114. I fully expect him to have one.

From the time he was in his late teens he sought solidarity with black Americans in Hawaii. It was his identity, and nothing so determines L2 acquisition as desiring to be in the target group and be perceived as belonging to the group speaking that L2.

L2 can be a different language or, in Obama's case, a different dialect. Then in college, both in California and in NY, he associated with other blacks; then he worked in a mostly black community; and he describes himself primarily as black now. I'd expect him to be a fluent although non-native speaker of AAEV.

People alter their speaking style based on context and how they want to be perceived. AAEV isn't perceived as an educated standard; neither is Appalachian English, outside of Appalachia (and even there standard English is sometimes considered to have more prestige). So blacks who use AAEV at home shed it at work. An ex-girlfriend was from Maryville, TN, and sounded like she was from Southern California when she was at work. Lots of people are bi-dialectal.

I expect him to speak however he thinks he needs to in order to sway his audience. That usually means standard English. Same for Hillary Clinton. In certain contexts, I expect both to shift register and dialect.

[DissedByBush]

213. His native dialect was standard English

Ebonics was learned later. Basically, a second language.

"AAEV isn't perceived as an educated standard"

That's what I am talking about. Educated people who grew up with Ebonics learn to turn it off. Send an email saying "I be goin' to duh meetin' n' shit, yo." and see what happens. I have a Southerner in the office who speaks with a thick Southern accent, but he still uses acceptable English.

"I expect him to speak however he thinks he needs to in order to sway his audience. "

I would see that as pandering because it isn't his native dialect. On the other hand, I have never heard him do it so the charge may be baseless.

[CLANG]

53. Stay classy, Harry!

:puke:

[paulsby]

58. at least he didn't say "clean and articulate"

that could ruin your political career.

oh... wait...

[katkat]

72. get a grip

No one, black or white, was offended by the word negro when Harry was young. It was, in fact, the polite word for referring to a Black person. All his use of it says is that his brain is ossified.

Who the hell cares what Harry says anyway? He has so much else to apologize for that dwarfs this. Wait, can I say dwarf?

[BP2]

74. Go back and look at the AP story. Harry described in private then-Sen. Barack Obama as

"light skinned" and "with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one."

In paragraph 2: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100109/ap_on_el_se/us_obama_reid


Who would notice that, and then be crass enough to put it in a book for all to read?

[CTyankee]

79. It doesn't matter. It isn't done. It shows a Dem hypocrisy we don't need at this time.

Please don't try to justify it, if that is really what you are doing (and I don't know if it is).

[CynicalObserver]

105. hypocracy is pretty much a bi-partisan event.

" It isn't done. It shows a Dem hypocrisy we don't need at this time."

when is a useful time for a dem to be hypocritical?

[Enrique]

83. this isn't Reid's book

it's a book that quoted Reid's private comment.

Paragraph 6:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100109/ap_on_el_se/us_obama_reid

[WriteDown]

94. Doe Michelle have any negress dialect?

:shrug:

[Odin2005]

78. What a suprise, a Mormon bigot.

And the proper term is "African-American Vernacular English, popularly called "Ebonics" for short, you scumbucket.

[Paladin]

84. Time To Drag Yourself Into The 21st Century, Harry......

....and to start acting like a real Democrat. Same goes for those of you defending Reid on this thread.......

[BP2]

86. Post of the day. Thank you. It's perfectly okay to be critical of our party leaders, especially when

it's well-deserved. It's like some have not heard of the phrase "guilt by association."

I will not be associated nor condone comments like these made by Harry Reid.

Thank you for recognizing this too.

[Paladin]

99. Thanks Back At You. (n/t)

[No Elephants]

183. +1

[MessiahRp]

85. Not really a surprise...

Seems to me that Reid just proved that when your best friends are all old white Republicans, you're bound to sound like an asshole on any issue. For more examples see: Almost the Entire Democratic Senate Caucus.

[AverageJoe5]

91. Stupid, offensive remark by Sen. Reid

Sen. Reid's comment indicates he has a low opinion of blacks in general. He should resign. If he doesn't resign, he should be voted out of office at the next election.

[unkachuck]

92. "light skinned" and "with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one."

....what else would expect from old harry?....remember Mountain Meadows?

[EFerrari]

111. They're still barely acknowledging Mountain Meadows.

Have you seen this booktv segment?

http://www.booktv.org/Watch/9759/Massacre+at+Mountain+Meadows.aspx

[WriteDown]

95. So we have the first fresh, clean, articulate Negro and Negress in the Whitehouse...

And people are okay with this description? :eyes:

[tledford]

97. And they're moderately light-skinned and don't speak in dialect, either.

No, I think very few here would be happy with your description. But I'm only 53 years old and can remember segregated water fountains (barely, I was five or six) in North Carolina, so I won't condemn Reid for being who/when he is.

This is still a racist country, and fifty years ago it was only worse.

[WriteDown]

98. Sorry, no excuse....

He's been in Washington a long time and should know better. He hasn't been living in Slidell, LA his whole life.

[No Elephants]

184. Reid did not grow up in the South and plenty of folk his age would never have said what he said.

As for yourself, you are a private person, not Democratic Majority Leader in the Senate of the United States, representing government and the Democratic Party, as well as Americans of all races.

[Jamastiene]

100. ,

:nuke:

[struggle4progress]

101. Harry Reid : Why I nominate Barack Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAy4xvvkxi4

[marshall]

104. Why apologize to "any and all Americans" for a comment said in private?

I'm sure all of us say things in private conversation that we wouldn't to be broadcast to the entire nation--not necessarily a racially tinged comment but something else considered untoward by some. And if whoever we spoke to in private has the temerity to betray a confidence, why apologize to millions?

[No Elephants]

197. Let's see:

He said Americans will not elect an African American unless he (or she?) is light skinned and has no Negro dialect (a statement I do not profess to understand). Message 1: Most or all American voters are racists. Message 2. African Americans who sound and look like most African Americans should not bother to run.

It's offensive. I don't care if he whispered it into his sleeve: If it becomes public, he has to apologize.

As it turns out, he apologized to Obama, and that is supposed to be "case closed." However, I don't think Obama is the only one he insulted, by far.

Not to mention, it was just a dumb comment politically. That is not how people vote, racist or not. Please see Reply # 193.

[bamacrat]

116. Yeah, what "progressive" leadership huh? n/t

[Onceuponalife]

117. Just a dumb old white guy

My dad still says "negro." He's not racist, just clueless that the term is no longer in usage.

[No Elephants]

191. Please see Reply 184.

[rayofreason]

118. This is the Leadership? What an embarrassment! n/t

[robcon]

144. It's hard to believe any Democrat could possibly have said those words.

Reid has to get out of the leadership position.

[No Elephants]

194. He will. I hope it is by resigning or getting primaried, though, as opposed to being

beaten by a Republican.

[panzerfaust]

152. Non-News of the Day

? Why now

Truly: WHY is this story appearing? Who is profiting? What is the point?

Whasss up wit dat?

Equally Truly: I do not know.

[timo]

159. he said it

he said it, it prooves he is a worthless douche who has been in power toooooo long!!!
all the apologies in the world wont mean shit from him!!!

[crazyjoe]

163. "light skinned" and "with no Negro dialect" ?????

oh.my.god.
in other words, "he don't look and sound like a black, maybe we have a chance"
big tent my ass

[No Elephants]

180. The big tent is there. Obama was the Democratic nominee and close behind him was Hillary.

Harry Reid is not the entire Democratic Party.

[crazyjoe]

212. oh yea, I forgot, he's also clean and articulate.....

jesus christ

[Jennicut]

182. My Dad is 62 AND votes mostly for Repubs and would never use the word

"negro". Harry Reid is a piece of crap for a majority leader and a human being.

[BolivarianHero]

190. He's a Mor(m)on...

He's had tons of racist propaganda drilled into his head. I can't say I'm surprised.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

198. who the fuck says negro dialect? in fact who the hell says negro anymore

what is wrong w. these people

[No Elephants]

199. Funny DU. Funny world.

Using "racially charged language" Reid makes a statement about Obama based on an assumption that American voters are racist.

Reid apologizes to Obama, whom American voters elected President, and only to Obama, not to other African Americans and not to American voters.

Reid says he was wrong. Tim Kaine, head of the Democratic National Committee, says on national TV (Meet the Press) that Reid was was wrong. Obama does not say Reid was wrong, but he accepts Reid's apology, without saying Reid had nothing to apologize for.

Many at DU say Reid has nothing to apologize for, meaning nothing he said was wrong. At worst, Reid doesn't know the latest term.

Reid apologizes to Obama, but not to those African Americans who, according to Reid, should not bother to run for President and not to American voters, all of whom Reid implied were racists.

Obama and Kaine say, since Obama accepted Reid's apology, the case is closed.

Apparently, none of them consider that narcissistic, even though, in Reid's statement, Obama comes out better than other African Americans and better than the people who voted for Obama.

Dick Gregory, who gets paid millions to be incisive and analytical in political discussions, hears Tim Kaine say the case is closed and does not ask why Kaine and Obama feel that an apology to Obama alone closes the case.

Meanwhile, Reid should do a Dodd, but he isn't. And, for the good of the Party, the head of the Party and the head of the DNC might have used this incident as an excuse to help Reid out the door, but they are not doing that.

And both of them will email me for donations.

[FVZA_Colonel]

200. Taken purely in the realm of politics, the GOP will certainly try to bring this back to the Dems.

And that is not dealing with the basic morality of saying such a thing, and what it represents to other African-Americans in this country.

(I do not mean to imply that this second piece is of lesser importance than the political aspect, but just that this will have very large implications.)

[No Elephants]

204. You may be correct, but I hope that the errors in my prior post did not mislead you.

Reid did apologize publicly to the American people and to African Americans, as well as to President Obama.

My firm belief is that Democrats should worry only about doing the right thing. They should never worry about what Repubicans say because Republican will always talk trash about Democrats, no matter what Democrats do or don't do.

[No Elephants]

203. Too late to edit, so I have to apologize. Reid did apologize to te American people

and to African Americans. It says so right in the OP. My bad.

[Xenotime]

219. This is white guilt at its finest

[NoodleyAppendage]

220. Well, I approve of Harry Reid because he's not an in-your-face Mormon and he's not typically preachy

Reid needs to go. This RACIST comment of his is the straw that broke the camel's back for someone who has been a wimpy corporate Dem from the get-go. Good riddance.

J